The disaster profiteering of Haiti.

[clue]

Profiting From Haiti's Crisis: Disaster Capitalism in Washington's Backyard

Monday 18 January 2010
http://www.truthout.org/profiting-fr...-backyard56205 (http://www.truthout.org/profiting-from-haiti%E2%80%99s-crisis-disaster-capitalism-washington%E2%80%99s-backyard56205)

by: Benjamin Dangl | Toward Freedom

US corporations, private mercenaries, Washington and the International Monetary fund are using the crisis in Haiti to make a profit, promote unpopular neoliberal policies, and extend military and economic control over the Haitian people.

..............

A Heroic History in Washington's Backyard

There is also little mention in the major news outlets' coverage of how the US government and corporations helped impoverish Haiti in the first place, creating the economic poverty that makes disasters like this so extensive. Nor is there mention of the country's heroic struggle against imperialism and slavery.

University professor Peter Hallward, writing in the Guardian Unlimited, criticized Washington for its responsibility in creatin the suffering it is now pledging to alleviate in Haiti. "Ever since the US invaded and occupied the country in 1915, every serious political attempt to allow Haiti's people to move (in former president Jean-Bertrand Aristide's phrase) 'from absolute misery to a dignified poverty' has been violently and deliberately blocked by the US government and some of its allies. Aristide's own government (elected by some 75% of the electorate) was the latest victim of such interference, when it was overthrown by an internationally sponsored coup in 2004 that killed several thousand people and left much of the population smoldering in resentment. The UN has subsequently maintained a large and enormously expensive stabilization and pacification force in the country."

Brian Concannon, the director of the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti told Hallward of the root causes for the overpopulation of neighborhoods in the city of Port-au-Prince that were hit so hard by the earthquake. "Those people got there because they or their parents were intentionally pushed out of the countryside by aid and trade policies specifically designed to create a large captive and therefore exploitable labor force in the cities; by definition they are people who would not be able to afford to build earthquake resistant houses." Unnatural crises such as this made the earthquake much more devastating.

Following the disaster in Haiti, Klein pointed out that the Heritage Foundation, "one of the leading advocates of exploiting disasters to push through their unpopular pro-corporate policies," issued a statement on its website after the earthquake hit: "In addition to providing immediate humanitarian assistance, the U.S. response to the tragic earthquake in Haiti earthquake offers opportunities to re-shape Haiti's long-dysfunctional government and economy as well as to improve the public image of the United States in the region."

The mercenary trade group International Peace Operations Association (IPOA) immediately offered their services to provide "security" in Haiti to its member companies, according to Jeremy Scahill. Within hours of the earthquake, Scahill wrote, the IPOA website announced, "In the wake of the tragic events in Haiti, a number of IPOA's member companies are available and prepared to provide a wide variety of critical relief services to the earthquake's victims."

Kathy Robison, a Fortune 500 executive, formerly with Goldman Sachs Companies, wrote of the earthquake disaster in Haiti. "The business leaders I have been meeting with have seen enough disappointment and suffering," she wrote. "What Haiti needs is economic development and the building of a true middle class. … There is much we are planning as far as creating new and innovative ways of using international aid(1) and government support to promote private investment."

On January 14, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) announced a $100 million loan to Haiti to help with relief efforts. However, Richard Kim at The Nation wrote that this loan was added onto $165 million in debt made up of loans with conditions "including raising prices for electricity, refusing pay increases to all public employees except those making minimum wage and keeping inflation low." This new $100 million loan has the same conditions. Kim writes, "in the face of this latest tragedy, the IMF is still using crisis and debt as leverage to compel neoliberal reforms."

The last thing Haiti needs at this point is more debt; what it needs is grants. As Kim wrote, according to a report from the The Center for International Policy, in 2003 "Haiti spent $57.4 million to service its debt, while total foreign assistance for education, health care and other services was a mere $39.21 million."

////

(1) Make a big fuss about this, get people to open their wallet, donate aid, funnels to private investment, pinned Haitians to poverty, and profit.

Mucho excellence.

Haiti: Bonanza for Foreign Mining Companies
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=17165 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17165)

[LineDoggie]

Aristide was as corrupt as Cedras

[Steak-Sauce]

The mercenary trade group International Peace Operations Association (IPOA) immediately offered their services to provide "security" in Haiti to its member companies, according to Jeremy Scahill.

Isn't Jeremy Scahill the author of the book Blackwater?

[SBL]

Isn't Jeremy Scahill the author of the book Blackwater?
The same .

[clue]

Aristide was as corrupt as Cedras

Yeah, must be why Aristide has 75% support from Haitians. :roll:

[Imp]

What a blatantly retarded article. Let's see:
1) The Heritage Foundation suggest this is an opportunity to reform Haiti so it gets a functional government and economy.
Oh The Humanity! Oh, wait. That is actually a good idea.
2) Some guy says some PMC offered their assistance.
No word on whether anyone even gave them an answer, let alone on whether they actually profiteering from the situation in any way, shape or form. This is like accusing aliens of profiteering on Earth, because some guy say a UFO.
3) "The business leaders I have been meeting with have seen enough disappointment and suffering," she wrote. "What Haiti needs is economic development and the building of a true middle class. … There is much we are planning as far as creating new and innovative ways of using international aid(1) and government support to promote private investment."
Holy $hit! Those evil b@stards want economic growth and development in Haiti? Again, how evil is that.
4)"Those people got there because they or their parents were intentionally pushed out of the countryside by aid and trade policies specifically designed to create a large captive and therefore exploitable labor force in the cities; by definition they are people who would not be able to afford to build earthquake resistant houses."
The unemployment rate was like 75% or something. This "labor force" was hardly being "exploited". The people lived in the city because their country is a mismanaged, corrupt, dicatorial crap hole with no economy to speak of.

Basically, this article provides no evidence for any profiteering by anyone. Frankly, the only Haiti profiteering I have heard of so far has been that of other Haitians selling their pre-quake hoarded fuel and food at skyhigh prices. Of course, there are no Americans who the author can blame for that, so it doesn't get mentioned.

[clue]

Basically, this article provides no evidence for any profiteering by anyone. Frankly, the only Haiti profiteering I have heard of so far has been that of other Haitians selling their pre-quake hoarded fuel and food at skyhigh prices. Of course, there are no Americans who the author can blame for that, so it doesn't get mentioned.

http://www.uruknet.info/index.php?p=m62184&hd=&size=1&l=e

In close collaboration with the new UN Special Envoy to Haiti, former President Bill Clinton, Obama has pushed for an economic program familiar to much of the rest of the Caribbean--tourism, textile sweatshops and weakening of state control of the economy through privatization and deregulation.
In particular, Clinton has orchestrated a plan for turning the north of Haiti into a tourist playground, as far away as possible from the teeming slums of Port-au-Prince. Clinton lured Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines into investing $55 million to build a pier along the coastline of Labadee, which it has leased until 2050.
From there, Haiti's tourist industry hopes to lead expeditions to the mountaintop fortress Citadelle and the Palace of Sans Souci, both built by Henri Christophe, one of the leaders of Haiti's slave revolution. According to the Miami Herald:
The $40 million plan involved transforming the now quaint town of Milot, home to the Citadelle and Palace of Sans Souci ruin, into a vibrant tourist village, with arts and crafts markets, restaurants and stoned streets. Guests would be ferried past a congested Cap-Haïtien to a bay, then transported by bus past peasant plantations. Once in Milot, they would either hike or horseback to the Citadelle...named a world heritage site in 1982...
Eco-tourism, archaeological exploration and voyeuristic visits to Vodou rituals are all being touted by Haiti's struggling boutique tourism industry, as Royal Caribbean plans to bring the world largest cruise ship here, sparking the need for excursions.
So while Pat Robertson denounces Haiti's great slave revolution as a pact with the devil, Clinton is helping to reduce it to a tourist trap.
At the same time, Clinton's plans for Haiti include an expansion of the sweatshop industry to take advantage of cheap labor available from the urban masses. The U.S. granted duty-free treatment for Haitian apparel exports to make it easy for sweatshops to return to Haiti.
Clinton celebrated the possibilities of sweatshop development during a whirlwind tour of a textile plant owned and operated by the infamous Cintas Corp. He announced that George Soros had offered $50 million for a new industrial park of sweatshops that could create 25,000 jobs in the garment industry. Clinton explained at a press conference that Haiti's government could create "more jobs by lowering the cost of doing business, including the cost of rent."
As TransAfrica founder Randall Robinson told Democracy Now! "That isn't the kind of investment that Haiti needs. It needs capital investment. It needs investment so that it can be self-sufficient. It needs investment so that it can feed itself."
One of the reasons why Clinton could be so unabashed in celebrating sweatshops is that the U.S.-backed coup repressed any and all resistance. It got rid of Aristide and his troublesome habit of raising the minimum wage. It banished him from the country, terrorized his remaining allies and barred his political party, Fanmi Lavalas, the most popular in the country, from running for office. The coup regime also attacked union organizers within the sweatshops themselves.
As a result, Clinton could state to business leaders: "Your political risk in Haiti is lower than it has ever been in my lifetime."

Would those who sycophantically defended Clinton, particularly over his Haiti policy, care to comment? Do the 'progressives for Obama' have anything to say at this point?

[SBL]

http://www.uruknet.info/index.php?p=m62184&hd=&size=1&l=e
In close collaboration with the new UN Special Envoy to Haiti, former President Bill Clinton, Obama has pushed for aneconomic program familiar to much of the rest of the Caribbean--tourism, textile sweatshops and weakening of state control of the economy through privatization and deregulation.
In particular, Clinton has orchestrated a plan for turning the north of Haiti into a tourist playground, as far away as possible from the teeming slums of Port-au-Prince. Clinton lured Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines into investing $55 million to build a pier along the coastline of Labadee, which it has leased until 2050.
From there, Haiti's tourist industry hopes to lead expeditions to the mountaintop fortress Citadelle and the Palace of Sans Souci, both built by Henri Christophe, one of the leaders of Haiti's slave revolution. According to the Miami Herald:
The $40 million plan involved transforming the now quaint town of Milot, home to the Citadelle and Palace of Sans Souci ruin, into a vibrant tourist village, with arts and crafts markets, restaurants and stoned streets. Guests would be ferried past a congested Cap-Haïtien to a bay, then transported by bus past peasant plantations. Once in Milot, they would either hike or horseback to the Citadelle...named a world heritage site in 1982...
Eco-tourism, archaeological exploration and voyeuristic visits to Vodou rituals are all being touted by Haiti's struggling boutique tourism industry, as Royal Caribbean plans to bring the world largest cruise ship here, sparking the need for excursions.
So while Pat Robertson denounces Haiti's great slave revolution as a pact with the devil, Clinton is helping to reduce it to a tourist trap.
At the same time, Clinton's plans for Haiti include an expansion of the sweatshop industry to take advantage of cheap labor available from the urban masses. The U.S. granted duty-free treatment for Haitian apparel exports to make it easy for sweatshops to return to Haiti.
Clinton celebrated the possibilities of sweatshop development during a whirlwind tour of a textile plant owned and operated by the infamous Cintas Corp. He announced that George Soros had offered $50 million for a new industrial park of sweatshops that could create 25,000 jobs in the garment industry. Clinton explained at a press conference that Haiti's government could create "more jobs by lowering the cost of doing business, including the cost of rent."
As TransAfrica founder Randall Robinson told Democracy Now! "That isn't the kind of investment that Haiti needs. It needs capital investment. It needs investment so that it can be self-sufficient. It needs investment so that it can feed itself."
One of the reasons why Clinton could be so unabashed in celebrating sweatshops is that the U.S.-backed coup repressed any and all resistance. It got rid of Aristide and his troublesome habit of raising the minimum wage. It banished him from the country, terrorized his remaining allies and barred his political party, Fanmi Lavalas, the most popular in the country, from running for office. The coup regime also attacked union organizers within the sweatshops themselves.
As a result, Clinton could state to business leaders: "Your political risk in Haiti is lower than it has ever been in my lifetime."

Would those who sycophantically defended Clinton, particularly over his Haiti policy, care to comment? Do the 'progressives for Obama' have anything to say at this point?
Reduce it? Reduce it from what? By all accounts, that place was a poverty-stricken shytehole before the earthquake. Poorest nation in the western hemisphere, remember?
Haiti could do with some industry.

[LineDoggie]

Yeah, must be why Aristide has 75% support from Haitians. :roll: Are you obtuse? you can be well loved and corrupt as hell. Look at Huey Long

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/758000.stm

The opposition in Haiti has accused the leading pro-government party of widescale election fraud.

Gerard Pierre Charles told local radio that members of the pro-government party, Family Lavalas, were the only ones in control of certain polling stations.



He said that Lavalas supporters had forced opposition representatives out of some polling stations and that thousands of ballot papers had been released days in advance of the vote.
The provisional electoral council, which organised last Sunday's poll, is investigating the allegations but so far it insists that things are going well.
A painstaking counting of the vote has continued. Late on Sunday officials started counting ballot papers by candlelight after a high turnout in the local and parliamentary elections. In thousands of electoral offices across the country officials read out each and every ballot and held it up for the crowd to view before moving on to the next.


Would you believe left wing congressman John Conyers?
Unfortunately, there were irregularities that occurred in the election and there is a post-election problem of the vote count that is threatening to undo the democratic work of the citizens of Haïti. Without doubt there were irregularities that occurred in the election which have been conceded by the CEP

How about Human Rights Watch?
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/02/13/haiti-aristide-should-uphold-rule-law
Haiti: Aristide Should Uphold Rule of Law
February 13, 2004

The violence in Haiti is threatening to spiral out of control. President Aristide must take immediate, constructive steps to reestablish the rule of law and rebuild the country’s democratic institutions.

José Miguel Vivanco, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch’s Americas Division
In responding to Haiti’s worsening violence, President Jean-Bertrand Aristide should ensure that the country’s security forces respect international human rights standards on the use of lethal force, Human Rights Watch said today.


Drug Running and Profiteering
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/03/Worldandnation/Taint_of_drugs_reachi.shtml
After he agreed to waive extradition proceedings, Jean was flown to Miami where he faces drug trafficking charges. It was Aristide's refusal to fire Jean two years ago, despite strong evidence of his ties to drug money, that made U.S. officials begin to seriously suspect the president.
Jean was one of six senior Haitian police officers allegedly linked to drugs that the United States pressed Aristide to fire. The U.S. Embassy withdrew Jean's visa in 2002 and tipped Aristide to the evidence of his drug dealing. But Jean remained in his job until Aristide's Feb. 29 resignation.


Aristide Embezzlement/Money Laundering
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/world/2005/10/31/6524/Probe-of-Aristide-administration-finds-evidence-of-embezzlement
In July, another probe also found evidence of corruption and embezzlement within Aristide's administration, noting that nearly 20 million dollars in public funds had been diverted to private accounts in Haiti and the United States between February 2001 and February 2004


http://www.haitipolicy.org/content/4348.htm


And he took 88% of the 25% of eligible voters who particpated in the 2000 election.

[LineDoggie]

Clue, as in Get one sparky

Haiti was a ****hole prior to this, and that is the real tragedy, not people trying to rebuild them.

[clue]

Are you obtuse? you can be well loved and corrupt as hell. Look at Huey Long

And he took 88% of the 25% of eligible voters who particpated in the 2000 election.

Uh huh. The "human rights" and "corruption" propaganda is at it again. Is that why US Marines kidnapped Aristide and exiled him to South Africa? After that, a pro-corporate puppet was installed? Yeah.


Clue, as in Get one sparky

Haiti was a ****hole prior to this, and that is the real tragedy, not people trying to rebuild them.

Haiti as a ****hole was forced by loansharking, embargo, and extortion from US, Canada, UK, France, IMF, and World Bank. Think we're there to help them get back on their feet after raping them for years? Think again.

[LineDoggie]

Dude, You SERIOUSLY are making the accusation that US Marines Kidnapped Aristide?

Wow, just wow

[Dispatcher]

*Grabs popcorn.*

This is gonna be a good one.

Short, probably, but a good one nonetheless.

*Anybody seen my tinfoil hat??*

[clue]

Dude, You SERIOUSLY are making the accusation that US Marines Kidnapped Aristide?

Wow, just wow

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/186/34344.html

Congresswoman Maxine Waters, interviewed on the radio show Democracy Now, had also spoken to Aristide and buttressed the comments made by Robinson and Rangel. "It's like in jail," said Waters of Aristide. "He said that he was kidnapped. He said that he was forced to leave Haiti. He said that the American embassy sent the diplomats. They ordered him to leave. They said you must go now. He said that they said that Guy Phillipe and U.S. Marines were coming to Port Au Prince. He will be killed, many Haitians will be killed, that they would not stop until they did what they wanted to do."

[Zoomie]

Dude, You SERIOUSLY are making the accusation that US Marines Kidnapped Aristide?

Wow, just wow
I think he's really Aristide.

[Zoomie]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/186/34344.html

Congresswoman Maxine Waters, interviewed on the radio show Democracy Now, had also spoken to Aristide and buttressed the comments made by Robinson and Rangel. "It's like in jail," said Waters of Aristide. "He said that he was kidnapped. He said that he was forced to leave Haiti. He said that the American embassy sent the diplomats. They ordered him to leave. They said you must go now. He said that they said that Guy Phillipe and U.S. Marines were coming to Port Au Prince. He will be killed, many Haitians will be killed, that they would not stop until they did what they wanted to do."
Gotta love how you quoted someone who was named as one of the 15 most corrupt members of congress in 2009, not to mention someone who thought that the CIA was behind the cocaine problems of California.

[SBL]

Haiti as a ****hole was forced by loansharking, embargo, and extortion from US, Canada, UK, France, IMF, and World Bank. Think we're there to help them get back on their feet after raping them for years? Think again.
No mention of corruption, incompetence and general mismanagement on the part of the Haitian elite.
Also, no citation in regards to loans, embargoes or extortion.

[LineDoggie]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/186/34344.html

Congresswoman Maxine Waters, interviewed on the radio show Democracy Now, had also spoken to Aristide and buttressed the comments made by Robinson and Rangel. "It's like in jail," said Waters of Aristide. "He said that he was kidnapped. He said that he was forced to leave Haiti. He said that the American embassy sent the diplomats. They ordered him to leave. They said you must go now. He said that they said that Guy Phillipe and U.S. Marines were coming to Port Au Prince. He will be killed, many Haitians will be killed, that they would not stop until they did what they wanted to do."Maxine Waters? fer crissakes why not say Baghad Bob, they both have the same crediblity. If all your going to post is Marxist-Socialist bull**** like Uruknet and Truthout this is going to be a Loooong lesson. Since 2004 no one able to come up with the Unit involved, the Tail number of the Aircraft used, a single picture

Provide the Unit designation
Provide a BuNo Tail Number for the Aircraft
Provide a Reliable, CREDIBLE source

You cant because this is friggen red bandana wearing wet dream fantasy.

[clue]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/hait-m02.shtml

US Marines occupy Haitian capital amid charges Aristide was kidnapped

By Keith Jones
2 March 2004

Deposed Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and his wife have told several US Congressmen that US military personnel forced him onto a plane and spirited him from the Caribbean-island state as the final act in a US-sponsored coup against his government.
Representative Charles Rangel told CNN that Aristide had said that “he was kidnapped, that he resigned under pressure, that he was taken to a Central African country” against his will. California Congresswoman Maxine Waters said Aristide’s wife had said her husband had been “forced to leave.” A US embassy official had told Haiti’s elected president he “had to go now—that if he didn’t go he would be killed and a lot of Haitians would be killed.”
Randall Robinson, former president of the liberal research group TransAfrica, said Aristide had telephoned him to say that he was being held under guard by French and African soldiers in a presidential palace in the capital of the Central African Republic. “He asked that I tell the world that it is a coup, that he was abducted by American soldiers and put aboard a plane.”
These charges have been denied by top officials in the Bush administration. Presidential spokesman Scott McClellan dismissed them as “nonsense” and “conspiracy theories.” Secretary of State Colin Powell, feigning hurt that he could be accused of such criminal conduct, told reporters, “He was not kidnapped. We did not force him on the airplane. He went on the plane willingly.”
The denials of the Bush administration are unconvincing.
French radio station RTL broadcast an interview with a “frightened old man” whom its correspondent came across when he visited Aristide’s residence and who said he was Aristide’s caretaker. He told RTL, “The American army came to take [Aristide] away at two in the morning ... The Americans forced him out with weapons.”
Monday’s edition of the Montreal daily La Presse—which appeared before Aristide’s charges were levelled or at least publicly known—carried a report from its special correspondent in Haiti, Marie-Claude Malboeuf. She says a source told her “handcuffs had had to be put on the ex-president of Haiti before he took the threats of the diplomats” demanding his resignation “seriously.”
Moreover, US officials had bluntly told Aristide that the US military personnel deployed in Haiti would do nothing to protect him, let alone his government, from the fascist gunmen poised to invade Port-au-Prince. Colin Powell personally called Ron Dellums, a former Congressman whom Aristide had hired to lobby on behalf of the Haitian government, to tell him that the US would not guarantee the Haitian president’s personal safety. And when guards from Aristide’s security team—employees of the San Francisco-based Steele Foundation and themselves presumably ex-US military personnel—contacted the US embassy in Port-au-Prince to ask if they could count on American protection in the event of a rebel attack they were told, no, they would have to fend for themselves.

[SBL]

[B]http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/hait-m02.shtml

The World Socialist Website.:lol:

[LineDoggie]

Maxine Waters, named on the Most Corrupt lists of 2004, 2005, 2009 for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington- A Progressive watchdog group.

Tried to get the FCC to yank KLA-TV's Liscense after it was critical of her Neptoism at King Drew Med Ctr.

Her family makes over $1Million from companies she helped directly through her office.

Maxine Waters husband was director One United Bank who just happened to be guess who's Major contibutor to her campaigns. Currently House Ethics Committee is investigating the bank getting $12 Million in TARP funds after she met with Treasury officials.

[BloodyTalon]

[B]http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/hait-m02.shtml

rofl yeah, cuz "World Socialist Website" is such a reliable source.

[Dispatcher]

*Chewing ferousiusly on popcorn*


Clue; You must have a very entertaining opinion on many things. Whats your stand on 9/11?

[clue]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/jan/20/haiti-water-us-occupation
Haiti needs water, not occupation

The US has never wanted Haitian self-rule, and its focus on 'security concerns' has hampered the earthquake aid response

On Monday, six days after the earthquake in Haiti, the US Southern Command finally began to drop bottled water and food (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/18/haiti.airdrop/) from an air force C-17. US defence secretary Robert Gates had previously rejected such a method because of "security concerns".
If people do not get clean water (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/17/world/main6107810.shtml?tag=topnews), there could be epidemics of water-borne diseases that could greatly increase the death toll. But the US is now sending 10,000 troops and seems to be prioritising "security" over much more urgent, life-and-death needs. This in addition to the increase of 3,500 UN troops scheduled to arrive.
On Sunday morning the world-renowned humanitarian group Doctors Without Borders complained that a plane carrying its portable hospital unit was re-routed by the US military through the Dominican Republic (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/haiti_doctors_without_borders.html). This would cost a crucial 48 hours and an unknown number of lives.
On Sunday, Jarry Emmanuel (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/us-accused-aid-effort-haiti), air logistics officer for the UN's World Food Programme, said: "There are 200 flights going in and out every day, which is an incredible amount for a country like Haiti ... But most flights are for the US military."
Yet Lieutenant General PK Keen, deputy commander of the US Southern Command, reports that there is less violence in Haiti now than there was before the earthquake hit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=You0m0Zm694&feature=player_embedded). Dr Evan Lyon, of Partners in Health, a medical aid group famous for its heroic efforts in Haiti, referred to "misinformation and rumours … and racism (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/01/19-5)" concerning security issues.
We've been circulating throughout the city until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning every night, evacuating patients, moving materials. There's no UN guards. There's no US military presence. There's no Haitian police presence. And there's also no violence. There is no insecurity. To understand the US government's obsession with "security concerns," we must look at the recent history of Washington's involvement there.
Long before the earthquake, Haiti's plight has been comparable to that of many homeless people on city streets in the US: too poor and too black to have the same effective constitutional and legal rights as other citizens. In 2002, when a US-backed military coup (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela) temporarily toppled the elected government of Venezuela, most governments in the hemisphere responded quickly and helped force the return of democratic rule. But two years later, when Haiti's democratically elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide was kidnapped by the US and flown to exile in Africa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/09/rorycarroll), the response was muted.

[LineDoggie]

Ahh the Sunday roundup of Leftist claptrap, whats next?

Granma as a source

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Maxine Waters? ... why not say Baghad Bob, they both have the same crediblity. If all your going to post is Marxist-Socialist bull**** like Uruknet and Truthout this is going to be a Loooong lesson. Since 2004 no one able to come up with the Unit involved, the Tail number of the Aircraft used, a single picture

Provide the Unit designation
Provide a BuNo Tail Number for the Aircraft
Provide a Reliable, CREDIBLE source

You cant because this is friggen red bandana wearing wet dream fantasy.

I'm cheering for you and SBL but it looks like you may be dealing with a person with a pretty interesting view of the world :)


The World Socialist Website.:lol:

Published by the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI)

Haven't heard of them before, but they do sound intimidating

[clue]

Ahh the Sunday roundup of Leftist claptrap, whats next?

Granma as a source

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you were a fan of Heritage.org, AEI, CATO, and other teatsuckers of Mil Friedman's neoliberalism.

Mentioning modern colonialism and exploitation with Great ole US of A in the same sentence must be a no-no.

[BloodyTalon]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/jan/20/haiti-water-us-occupation
Haiti needs water, not occupation

...and you post an op-ed column by a writer who, judging from such jems as "Free Press? Venezuela Beats the US," is so leftist he ****s out copies of The Little Red Book.



Published by the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI)

Haven't heard of them before, but they do sound intimidating

From wikipedia:

The International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) is a Trotskyist international. There are two distinct groups that adhere to the name, one close to the US party with the name Socialist Equality Party and have sections and supporters in 6 countries. It is well known for its publication of the World Socialist Web Site, with content in 13 different languages. The other close to the Workers' Revolutionary Party (UK) in Britain with about 5 sections internationally.
In other words...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2-zzmCmMVI

[Dispatcher]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you were a fan of Heritage.org, AEI, CATO, and other teatsuckers of Mil Friedman's neoliberalism.

Mentioning modern colonialism and exploitation with Great ole US of A in the same sentence must be a no-no.

Do you have any clue (pun intended), how a big operation like this has to be run? And what about the other country's military presence? We are all there to grab a slice of the wealth pie that is Haiti??

[sgt_G]

*Grabs popcorn.*

here I think I have enough for two woot

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6660/381043419e68be4975a3d59.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/381043419e68be4975a3d59.jpg/)


http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7025/smiley2eatingpopcorn.gif (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/smiley2eatingpopcorn.gif/)

[LineDoggie]

Mark Weisbrot an admirer of Hugo Chavez and an Advisor to his government

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/MW_LaClave_elmodeloamericano.pdf
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=2006anarchist_wsf
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/world/americas/18venez.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print

[Dispatcher]

And wine too! This party is shaping up nicely..

[LineDoggie]

Again, where's the proof that US Marines Kidnapped Aristide?

What Unit?

What Aircraft?

Surely since 2004 the fourth international would have been able to find these 2 simple things out

[Rilence]

This is cruel making fun of the mentally challenged like this. Leave clue alone.

[SBL]

And wine too! This party is shaping up nicely..
Perfect in your shallow bourgeois excesses.

[Dispatcher]

Perfect in your shallow bourgeois.

Meaning?


....

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) is a Trotskyist international.

Very interesting, thanks.

Now I'm thinking of Animal Farm :)

A side question, don't real commies hate Trotskyists?

[LineDoggie]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you were a fan of Heritage.org, AEI, CATO, and other teatsuckers of Mil Friedman's neoliberalism.

Mentioning modern colonialism and exploitation with Great ole US of A in the same sentence must be a no-no.
Dude, honestly dont know who half of those are. I have heard of Heritage.org but sorry, your gonna need to do better than Indymedia rejects wearing Black & Red Bandanas and holding up fists. Those with a Modicum of sanity are going to need something a little more substantial

[SBL]

Meaning?


....
I make joke

[LineDoggie]

All we need is Tom Tuttle from Tacoma to tell us about the Proletariat and Petty Bourgeois


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qLzQ4uOvio

[Zoomie]

On Monday, six days after the earthquake in Haiti, the US Southern Command finally began to drop bottled water and food (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/18/haiti.airdrop/) from an air force C-17. US defence secretary Robert Gates had previously rejected such a method because of "security concerns".
If people do not get clean water (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/17/world/main6107810.shtml?tag=topnews), there could be epidemics of water-borne diseases that could greatly increase the death toll. But the US is now sending 10,000 troops and seems to be prioritising "security" over much more urgent, life-and-death needs. This in addition to the increase of 3,500 UN troops scheduled to arrive.
Obviously you're oblivious to what's going on in Haiti. Dropping aid within the first few days without any security does no one on the ground any good - there's no way to guarantee the people who need it the most will get it, or prevent anyone from hoarding it all.


On Sunday morning the world-renowned humanitarian group Doctors Without Borders complained that a plane carrying its portable hospital unit was re-routed by the US military through the Dominican Republic (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/haiti_doctors_without_borders.html). This would cost a crucial 48 hours and an unknown number of lives.
On Sunday, Jarry Emmanuel (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/us-accused-aid-effort-haiti), air logistics officer for the UN's World Food Programme, said: "There are 200 flights going in and out every day, which is an incredible amount for a country like Haiti ... But most flights are for the US military."*yawn* Whatever. . .did they send all the information about who they were and what was on the plane? I highly doubt it. The US runs the airport and we know what is on every single one of our planes.



Yet Lieutenant General PK Keen, deputy commander of the US Southern Command, reports that there is less violence in Haiti now than there was before the earthquake hit[/URL].
He never sad that - if you actually watch the video, you'll actually notice he's quoting someone and immediately addresses the continued violence after that quote.


Dr Evan Lyon, of Partners in Health, a medical aid group famous for its heroic efforts in Haiti, referred to "misinformation and rumours … and racism (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/01/19-5)" concerning security issues.
We've been circulating throughout the city until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning every night, evacuating patients, moving materials. There's no UN guards. There's no US military presence. There's no Haitian police presence. And there's also no violence. There is no insecurity. To understand the US government's obsession with "security concerns," we must look at the recent history of Washington's involvement there.Just another scene of no insecurity:
106159

But two years later, when Haiti's democratically elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide was kidnapped by the US and flown to exile in Africa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/09/rorycarroll), the response was muted. Hahah. . .only evidence is Aristide's moaning, nothing else.

[Dispatcher]

I make joke

:hug:

..........

[clue]

And what about the other country's military presence? We are all there to grab a slice of the wealth pie that is Haiti??

US is the military presence. What other country needs to be involved?

[Dispatcher]

US is the military presence. What other country needs to be involved?

Dutch marines are also on the ground. As well as many other countries armies. And how about this; THEY BROUGHT THEIR GUNS!! Oh, the humanitee!!

You need to get your head out of your ass. Why the hell did you join this forum anyway? Isnt indymedia more to your liking?

[LineDoggie]

US is the military presence. What other country needs to be involved? it shows just how ClueLESS you are.

Brazil has had troops on the ground in Haiti as part of the UN Mission Pre-Earthquake

[clue]

Obviously you're oblivious to what's going on in Haiti. Dropping aid within the first few days without any security does no one on the ground any good - there's no way to guarantee the people who need it the most will get it, or prevent anyone from hoarding it all.
*yawn* Whatever. . .did they send all the information about who they were and what was on the plane? I highly doubt it. The US runs the airport and we know what is on every single one of our planes.



He never sad that - if you actually watch the video, you'll actually notice he's quoting someone and immediately addresses the continued violence after that quote.
Just another scene of no insecurity:
106159
Hahah. . .only evidence is Aristide's moaning, nothing else.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100201/solnit

Covering Haiti: When the Media is the Disaster

By Rebecca Solnit (http://www.thenation.com/directory/bios/rebecca_solnit)

This article originally appeared on TomDispatch (http://www.tomdispatch.com/).

Soon after almost every disaster the crimes begin: ruthless, selfish, indifferent to human suffering, and generating far more suffering. The perpetrators go unpunished and live to commit further crimes against humanity. They care less for human life than for property. They act without regard for consequences.

I'm talking, of course, about those members of the mass media whose misrepresentation of what goes on in disaster often abets and justifies a second wave of disaster. I'm talking about the treatment of sufferers as criminals, both on the ground and in the news, and the endorsement of a shift of resources from rescue to property patrol. They still have blood on their hands from Hurricane Katrina, and they are staining themselves anew in Haiti. Within days of the Haitian earthquake, for example, the Los Angeles Times ran a series of photographs with captions (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/photography/la-fg-haiti-hires-html,0,7123168.htmlstory) that kept deploying the word "looting." One was of a man lying face down on the ground with this caption: "A Haitian police officer ties up a suspected looter who was carrying a bag of evaporated milk." The man's sweaty face looks up at the camera, beseeching, anguished.
Another photo was labeled: "Looting continued in Haiti on the third day after the earthquake, although there were more police in downtown Port-au-Prince." It showed a somber crowd wandering amid shattered piles of concrete in a landscape where, visibly, there could be little worth taking anyway.
A third image was captioned: "A looter makes off with rolls of fabric from an earthquake-wrecked store." Yet another: "The body of a police officer lies in a Port-au-Prince street. He was accidentally shot by fellow police who mistook him for a looter."
People were then still trapped alive in the rubble. A translator for Australian TV dug out a toddler (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/18/australian-tv-crew-pulls_n_427013.html) who'd survived 68 hours without food or water, orphaned but claimed by an uncle who had lost his pregnant wife. Others were hideously wounded and awaiting medical attention that wasn't arriving. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, needed, and still need, water, food, shelter, and first aid. The media in disaster bifurcates. Some step out of their usual "objective" roles to respond with kindness and practical aid. Others bring out the arsenal of cliches and pernicious myths and begin to assault the survivors all over again.
The "looter" in the first photo might well have been taking that milk to starving children and babies, but for the news media that wasn't the most urgent problem. The "looter" stooped under the weight of two big bolts of fabric might well have been bringing it to now homeless people trying to shelter from a fierce tropical sun under improvised tents.
The pictures do convey desperation, but they don't convey crime. Except perhaps for that shooting of a fellow police officer -- his colleagues were so focused on property that they were reckless when it came to human life, and a man died for no good reason in a landscape already saturated with death.
In recent days, there have been scattered accounts of confrontations involving weapons, and these may be a different matter. But the man with the powdered milk? Is he really a criminal? There may be more to know, but with what I've seen I'm not convinced.
What Would You Do?
Imagine, reader, that your city is shattered by a disaster. Your home no longer exists, and you spent what cash was in your pockets days ago. Your credit cards are meaningless because there is no longer any power to run credit-card charges. Actually, there are no longer any storekeepers, any banks, any commerce, or much of anything to buy. The economy has ceased to exist.
By day three, you're pretty hungry and the water you grabbed on your way out of your house is gone. The thirst is far worse than the hunger. You can go for many days without food, but not water. And in the improvised encampment you settle in, there is an old man near you who seems on the edge of death. He no longer responds when you try to reassure him that this ordeal will surely end. Toddlers are now crying constantly, and their mothers infinitely stressed and distressed.
So you go out to see if any relief organization has finally arrived to distribute anything, only to realize that there are a million others like you stranded with nothing, and there isn't likely to be anywhere near enough aid anytime soon. The guy with the corner store has already given away all his goods to the neighbors. That supply's long gone by now. No wonder, when you see the chain pharmacy with the shattered windows or the supermarket, you don't think twice before grabbing a box of PowerBars and a few gallons of water that might keep you alive and help you save a few lives as well.
The old man might not die, the babies might stop their squalling, and the mothers might lose that look on their faces. Other people are calmly wandering in and helping themselves, too. Maybe they're people like you, and that gallon of milk the fellow near you has taken is going to spoil soon anyway. You haven't shoplifted since you were 14, and you have plenty of money to your name. But it doesn't mean anything now.
If you grab that stuff are you a criminal? Should you end up lying in the dirt on your stomach with a cop tying your hands behind your back? Should you end up labeled a looter in the international media? Should you be shot down in the street, since the overreaction in disaster, almost any disaster, often includes the imposition of the death penalty without benefit of trial for suspected minor property crimes?
Or are you a rescuer? Is the survival of disaster victims more important than the preservation of everyday property relations? Is that chain pharmacy more vulnerable, more a victim, more in need of help from the National Guard than you are, or those crying kids, or the thousands still trapped in buildings and soon to die?
It's pretty obvious what my answers to these questions are, but it isn't obvious to the mass media. And in disaster after disaster, at least since the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, those in power, those with guns and the force of law behind them, are too often more concerned for property than human life. In an emergency, people can, and do, die from those priorities. Or they get gunned down for minor thefts or imagined thefts. The media not only endorses such outcomes, but regularly, repeatedly, helps prepare the way for, and then eggs on, such a reaction.
If Words Could Kill
We need to banish the word "looting" from the English language. It incites madness and obscures realities.
"Loot," the noun and the verb, is a word of Hindi origin meaning the spoils of war or other goods seized roughly. As historian Peter Linebaugh points out, "At one time loot was the soldier's pay." It entered the English language as a good deal of loot from India entered the English economy, both in soldiers' pockets and as imperial seizures.
After years of interviewing survivors of disasters (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175132/rebecca_solnit_9/11%E2%80%99s_living_monuments), and reading first-hand accounts and sociological studies from such disasters as the London Blitz and the Mexico City earthquake of 1985, I don't believe in looting. Two things go on in disasters. The great majority of what happens you could call emergency requisitioning. Someone who could be you, someone in the kind of desperate circumstances I outlined above, takes necessary supplies to sustain human life in the absence of any alternative. Not only would I not call that looting, I wouldn't even call that theft.
Necessity is a defense for breaking the law in the United States and other countries, though it's usually applied more to, say, confiscating the car keys of a drunk driver than feeding hungry children. Taking things you don't need is theft under any circumstances. It is, says the disaster sociologist Enrico Quarantelli, who has been studying the subject for more than half a century, vanishingly rare in most disasters.
Personal gain is the last thing most people are thinking about in the aftermath of a disaster. In that phase, the survivors are almost invariably more altruistic and less attached to their own property, less concerned with the long-term questions of acquisition, status, wealth, and security, than just about anyone not in such situations imagines possible. (The best accounts from Haiti of how people with next to nothing have patiently tried to share the little they have and support those in even worse shape than them only emphasize this disaster reality.) Crime often drops in the wake of a disaster.
The media are another matter. They tend to arrive obsessed with property (and the headlines that assaults on property can make). Media outlets often call everything looting and thereby incite hostility toward the sufferers as well as a hysterical overreaction on the part of the armed authorities. Or sometimes the journalists on the ground do a good job and the editors back in their safe offices cook up the crazy photo captions and the wrongheaded interpretations and emphases.
They also deploy the word panic wrongly. Panic among ordinary people in crisis is profoundly uncommon. The media will call a crowd of people running from certain death a panicking mob, even though running is the only sensible thing to do. In Haiti, they continue to report that food is being withheld from distribution for fear of "stampedes." Do they think Haitians are cattle?
The belief that people in disaster (particularly poor and nonwhite people) are cattle or animals or just crazy and untrustworthy regularly justifies spending far too much energy and far too many resources on control -- the American military calls it "security" -- rather than relief. A British-accented voiceover on CNN calls people sprinting (http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/struggling-to-distribute-aid/521318941/?icid=VIDLRVNWS06) to where supplies are being dumped from a helicopter a "stampede" and adds that this delivery "risks sparking chaos." The chaos already exists, and you can't blame it on these people desperate for food and water. Or you can, and in doing so help convince your audience that they're unworthy and untrustworthy.
Back to looting: of course you can consider Haiti's dire poverty and failed institutions a long-term disaster that changes the rules of the game. There might be people who are not only interested in taking the things they need to survive in the next few days, but things they've never been entitled to own or things they may need next month. Technically that's theft, but I'm not particularly surprised or distressed by it; the distressing thing is that even before the terrible quake they led lives of deprivation and desperation.
In ordinary times, minor theft is often considered a misdemeanor. No one is harmed. Unchecked, minor thefts could perhaps lead to an environment in which there were more thefts and so forth, and a good argument can be made that, in such a case, the tide needs to be stemmed. But it's not particularly significant in a landscape of terrible suffering and mass death.
A number of radio hosts and other media personnel are still upset that people apparently took TVs after Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in August 2005. Since I started thinking about, and talking to people about, disaster aftermaths I've heard a lot about those damned TVs. Now, which matters more to you, televisions or human life? People were dying on rooftops and in overheated attics and freeway overpasses, they were stranded in all kinds of hideous circumstances on the Gulf Coast in 2005 when the mainstream media began to obsess about looting, and the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana made the decision to focus on protecting property, not human life.
A gang of white men on the other side of the river from New Orleans got so worked up about property crimes that they decided to take the law into their own hands and began shooting. They seem to have considered all black men criminals and thieves and shot (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/thompson) a number of them. Some apparently died; there were bodies bloating in the September sun far from the region of the floods; one good man trying to evacuate the ruined city barely survived; and the media looked away. It took me months of nagging (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175016/rebecca_solnit_getting_away_with_murder) to even get the story covered. This vigilante gang claimed to be protecting property, though its members never demonstrated that their property was threatened. They boasted of killing black men. And they shared values with the mainstream media and the Louisiana powers that be.
Somehow, when the Bush administration subcontracted emergency services -- like providing evacuation buses in Hurricane Katrina -- to cronies who profited even while providing incompetent, overpriced, and much delayed service at the moment of greatest urgency, we didn't label that looting.
Or when a lot of wealthy Wall Street brokers decide to tinker with a basic human need like housing.... Well, you catch my drift.
Woody Guthrie once sang that "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen." The guys with the six guns (or machetes or sharpened sticks) make for better photographs, and the guys with the fountain pens not only don't end up in jail, they end up in McMansions with four-car garages and, sometimes, in elected -- or appointed -- office.
Learning to See in Crises
Last Christmas a priest, Father Tim Jones of York, started a ruckus in Britain when he said in a sermon that shoplifting by the desperate from chain stores might be acceptable behavior. Naturally, there was an uproar. Jones told the Associated Press: "The point I'm making is that when we shut down every socially acceptable avenue for people in need, then the only avenue left is the socially unacceptable one."
The response focused almost entirely on why shoplifting is wrong, but the claim was also repeatedly made that it doesn't help. In fact, food helps the hungry, a fact so bald it's bizarre to even have to state it. The means by which it arrives is a separate matter. The focus remained on shoplifting, rather than on why there might be people so desperate in England's green and pleasant land that shoplifting might be their only option, and whether unnecessary human suffering is itself a crime of sorts.
Right now, the point is that people in Haiti need food, and for all the publicity, the international delivery system has, so far, been a visible dud. Under such circumstances, breaking into (http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/1992751,un-warehouse-looters-haiti-011510.article) a U.N. food warehouse -- food assumedly meant for the poor of Haiti in a catastrophic moment -- might not be "violence," or "looting," or "law-breaking." It might be logic. It might be the most effective way of meeting a desperate need.
Why were so many people in Haiti hungry before the earthquake? Why do we have a planet that produces enough food for all and a distribution system that ensures more than a billion of us don't have a decent share of that bounty? Those are not questions whose answers should be long delayed.
Even more urgently, we need compassion for the sufferers in Haiti and media that tell the truth about them. I'd like to propose alternative captions for those Los Angeles Times photographs as models for all future disasters:
Let's start with the picture of the policeman hogtying the figure whose face is so anguished: "Ignoring thousands still trapped in rubble, a policeman accosts a sufferer who took evaporated milk. No adequate food distribution exists for Haiti's starving millions."
And the guy with the bolt of fabric? "As with every disaster, ordinary people show extraordinary powers of improvisation, and fabrics such as these are being used to make sun shelters around Haiti."
For the murdered policeman: "Institutional overzealousness about protecting property leads to a gratuitous murder, as often happens in crises. Meanwhile countless people remain trapped beneath crushed buildings."
And the crowd in the rubble labeled looters? How about: "Resourceful survivors salvage the means of sustaining life from the ruins of their world."
That one might not be totally accurate, but it's likely to be more accurate than the existing label. And what is absolutely accurate, in Haiti right now, and on Earth always, is that human life matters more than property, that the survivors of a catastrophe deserve our compassion and our understanding of their plight, and that we live and die by words and ideas, and it matters desperately that we get them right.

[Dispatcher]

Dont post great walls of text.

Link to them, to support your own drivel.

[clue]

Dutch marines are also on the ground. As well as many other countries armies. And how about this; THEY BROUGHT THEIR GUNS!! Oh, the humanitee!!

You need to get your head out of your ass. Why the hell did you join this forum anyway? Isnt indymedia more to your liking?


it shows just how ClueLESS you are.

Brazil has had troops on the ground in Haiti as part of the UN Mission Pre-Earthquake

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17000


The Militarization of Emergency Aid to Haiti: Is it a Humanitarian Operation or an Invasion?

By Michel Chossudovsky

Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/), January 15, 2010

Haiti has a longstanding history of US military intervention and occupation going back to the beginning of the 20th Century. US interventionism has contributed to the destruction of Haiti's national economy and the impoverishment of its population.
The devastating earthquake is presented to World public opinion as the sole cause of the country's predicament.
A country has been destroyed, its infrastructure demolished. Its people precipitated into abysmal poverty and despair.
Haiti's history, its colonial past have been erased.
The US military has come to the rescue of an impoverished Nation. What is its Mandate?
Is it a Humanitarian Operation or an Invasion?
The main actors in America's "humanitarian operation" are the Department of Defense, the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). (See USAID Speeches: On-The-Record Briefing on the Situation in Haiti, 01/13/10 (http://www.usaid.gov/press/speeches/2010/sp100113.html)). USAID has also been entrusted in channelling food aid to Haiti, which is distributed by the World Food Program. (See USAID Press Release: USAID to Provide Emergency Food Aid for Haiti Earthquake Victims (http://www.usaid.gov/press/releases/2010/pr100113.html), January 13, 2010)
The military component of the US mission, however, tends to overshadow the civilian functions of rescuing a desperate and impoverished population. The overall humanitarian operation is not being led by civilian governmental agencies such as FEMA or USAID, but by the Pentagon.
The dominant decision making role has been entrusted to US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM).
A massive deployment of military hardware and personnel is contemplated. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen has confirmed that the US will be sending nine to ten thousand troops to Haiti, including 2000 marines. (American Forces Press Service, January 14, 2010)
Aircraft carrier, USS Carl Vinson and its complement of supporting ships has already arrived in Port au Prince. (January 15, 2010). The 2,000-member Marine Amphibious Unit as well as and soldiers from the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne division "are trained in a wide variety of missions including security and riot-control in addition to humanitarian tasks."
In contrast to rescue and relief teams dispatched by various civilian organizations, the humanitarian mandate of the US military is not clearly defined:

“Marines are definitely warriors first, and that is what the world knows the Marines for,... we’re equally as compassionate when we need to be, and this is a role that we’d like to show -- that compassionate warrior, reaching out with a helping hand for those who need it. We are very excited about this.” (Marines' Spokesman, Marines Embark on Haiti Response Mission (http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=57542), Army Forces Press Services, January 14, 2010)
While presidents Obama and Préval spoke on the phone, there were no reports of negotiations between the two governments regarding the entry and deployment of US troops on Haitian soil. The decision was taken and imposed unilaterally by Washington. The total lack of a functioning government in Haiti was used to legitimize, on humanitarian grounds, the sending in of a powerful military force, which has de facto taken over several governmental functions.

TABLE 1
US Military Assets to be Sent to Haiti. (according to official announcements)
The amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) (http://www.bataan.navy.mil/default.aspx) and amphibious dock landing ships USS Fort McHenry (LSD 43) and USS Carter Hall (LSD 50).
A 2,000-member Marine Amphibious Unit from the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit (http://www.22ndmeuclan.com/)and soldiers from the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne division. (http://www.bragg.army.mil/82dv) 900 soldiers are slated to arrive in Haiti by January 15th.
Aircraft carrier, USS Carl Vinson and its complement of supporting ships. (arrived in Port au Prince on January 15, 2010): USS Carl Vinson CVN 70 (http://www.cvn70.navy.mil/)
The hospital ship USNS Comfort (http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/usnscomfort/Pages/default.aspx)
Several U.S. Coast Guard vessels and helicopters


USS Carl Vinson
The three amphibious ships will join aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, guided-missile cruiser USS Normandy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Normandy_%28CG-60%29) and guided-missile frigate USS Underwood. (http://www.underwood.navy.mil/default.aspx)

USS Normandy

Leading Role of US Southern Command
US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM) with headquarters in Miami is the "lead agency" in Haiti. Its mandate as a regional military command is to carry out modern warfare. Its stated mission in Latin America and the Caribbean is "to conduct military operations and promote security cooperation to achieve U.S. strategic objectives." (Our Mission - U.S. Southern Command (USSOUTHCOM (http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/pages/ourMission.php)) The commanding officers are trained to oversee theater operations, military policing as well "counterinsurgency" in Latin America and the Caribbean, including the recent establishment of new US military bases in Colombia, within proximity of the Venezuelan border.
General Douglas Fraser, commander of U.S. Southern Command has defined the Haiti emergency operation as a Command, Control, Communications operation (C3). US Southern Command is to oversee a massive deployment of military hardware, including several warships, an aircraft carrier, airborne combat divisions, etc:

"So we're focused on [B]getting command and control and communications there so that we can really get a better understanding of what's going on. MINUSTAH [United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti], as their headquarters partially collapsed, lost a lot of their communication, and so we're looking to robust that communication, also.
We're also sending in assessment teams in conjunction with USAID, supporting their efforts, as well as putting in some of our own to support their efforts.
We're moving various ships that we had in the region -- they're small ships, Coast Guard cutters, destroyers -- in that direction, to provide whatever immediate assistance that we can on the ground.
We also have a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier, the USS Carl Vinson, moving in that direction. It was at sea off of Norfolk, and so it's going to take a couple of days for it to get there. We need to also just resupply it and give it the provisions it needs to support the effort as we look at Haiti. And then we're looking across the international agencies to figure out how we support their efforts as well as our efforts.
We also are looking at a large-deck amphibious ship with an embarked Marine Expeditionary Unit on it that will be a couple of days behind the USS Vinson.
And that gives us a broader range of capability to move supplies around, to have lift capability to help support the effort there also.
So bottom line to it is, we don't have a clear assessment right now of what the situation on the ground is, what the needs within Port-au-Prince are, how extensive the situation is.
We also, finally, have a team that's headed in to the airport. From my understanding -- because my deputy commander just happened to be in Haiti when this situation happened, on a previously scheduled visit. He has been to the airport. He says the runway is functional but the tower doesn't have communications capability. The passenger terminal -- has structural damage to it, so we don't know what the status of it is.
So we have a group going in to make sure we can gain and secure the airfield and operate from it, because that's one of those locations we think we're going to have a lot of the immediate effort from an international basis going into.
And then we're out conducting all the other assessments that you would consider appropriate as we go in and work this effort.
We're also coordinating on the ground with MINUSTAH, with the folks who are there. The commander for MINUSTAH happened to be in Miami when this situation happened, so he's right now traveling back through and should be arriving in Port-au-Prince any time now. So that will help us coordinate our efforts there also, because again, obviously the United Nations suffered a significant loss there with the collapse -- at least partial collapse of their headquarters.
So that's -- those are the initial efforts that we have ongoing And as we get the assessments of what's coming next, then we'll adjust as required.
The secretary of Defense, the president, have all stipulated that this is a significant effort, and we're corralling all the resources within the Department of Defense to support this effort." (Defense.gov News Transcript: DOD News Briefing with Gen. Fraser from the Pentagon (http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4534), January 13, 2010)
A Heritage Foundation report summarizes the substance of America's mission in Haiti: "The earthquake has both humanitarian and U.S. national security implications [requiring] a rapid response that is not only bold but decisive, mobilizing U.S. military, governmental, and civilian capabilities for both a short-term rescue and relief effort and a longer-term recovery and reform program in Haiti." (James M. Roberts and Ray Walser, American Leadership Necessary to Assist Haiti After Devastating Earthquake (http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/wm2754.cfm), Heritage Foundation, January 14, 2010).
At the outset, the military mission will be involved in first aid and emergency as well as public security and police activities.
US Air Force Controls the Airport

The US Air Force has taken over air traffic control functions as well as the management of Port au Prince airport. In other words, the US military regulates the flow of emergency aid and relief supplies which are being brought into the country in civilian planes. The US Air Force is not working under the instructions of Haitian Airport officials. These officials have been displaced. The airport is run by the US Military. (Interview with Haitian Ambassador to the US R. Joseph, PBS News, January 15, 2010)

"The FAA's team is working with DOD combat controllers to improve the flow of air traffic moving in and out of the airport. The US Air Force reopened the airport on 14 January, and on 15 January its contingency response group was granted senior airfield authority ... Senior airfield authority enables the Air Force to prioritise, schedule and control the airspace at the airport, ..." (flightglobal.com, January 16, 2010 (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/16/337234/faa-lends-air-traffic-aid-to-haiti-as-air-force-opens-port-au.html), emphasis added)

The 1,000-bed U.S. Navy hospital ship, USNS Comfort, which includes more than 1,000 medical and support personnel has been sent to Haiti under the jurisdiction of Southern Command. (See Navy hospital ship with 1,000 beds readies for Haiti quake relief (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/285680), Digital Journal, January 14, 2010). There were, at the time of the Earthquake, some 7100 military personnel and over 2000 police, namely a foreign force of over 9000. In contrast, the international civilian personnel of MINUSTAH is less than 500. MINUSTAH Facts and Figures - United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/minustah/facts.shtml)


TABLE 2

United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH)
Current strength (30 November 2009)

9,065 total uniformed personnel



7,031 troops
2,034 police 488 international civilian personnel
1,212 local civilian staff
214 United Nations Volunteers

MINUSTAH Facts and Figures - United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/minustah/facts.shtml)
Estimated combined SOUTHCOM and MINUSTAH forces; 19,095*
*Excluding commitments by France (unconfirmed) and Canada (confirmed 800 troops). The US, France and Canada were "partners" in the February 29, 2004 Coup d'État.



Haiti has been under foreign military occupation since the US instigated February 2004 Coup d'Etat. The contingent of US forces under SOUTHCOM combined with those of MINUSTAH brings foreign military presence in Haiti to close to 20,000 in a country of 9 million people. In comparison in Afghanistan, prior to Obama's military surge, combined US and NATO forces were of the order of 70,000 for a population of 28 million. In other words, on a per capita basis there will be more troops in Haiti than in Afghanistan.
Recent US Military Interventions in Haiti

There have been several US sponsored military interventions in recent history. In 1994, following three years of military rule, a force of 20,000 occupation troops and "peace-keepers" was sent to Haiti. The 1994 US military intervention "was not intended to restore democracy. Quite the contrary: it was carried out to prevent a popular insurrection against the military Junta and its neoliberal cohorts." (Michel Chossudovsky, The Destabilization of Haiti, Global Research, February 28, 2004 (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12487))
US and allied troops remained in the country until 1999. The Haitian armed forces were disbanded and the US State Department hired a mercenary company DynCorp to provide "technical advice" in restructuring the Haitian National Police (HNP). (Ibid).
The February 2004 Coup d'État
In the months leading up to the 2004 Coup d'Etat, US special forces and the CIA were training death squadrons composed of the former tonton macoute of the Duvalier era. The Rebel paramilitary army crossed the border from the Dominican Republic in early February 2004. "It was a well armed, trained and equipped paramilitary unit integrated by former members of Le Front pour l'avancement et le progrès d'Haiti (FRAPH), the "plain clothes" death squadrons, involved in mass killings of civilians and political assassinations during the CIA sponsored 1991 military coup, which led to the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Jean Bertrand Aristide." (see Michel Chossudovsky, The Destabilization of Haiti: Global Research. February 28, 2004 (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12487))
Foreign troops were sent into Haiti. MINUSTAH was set up in the wake of the US sponsored coup d'Etat in February 2004 and the kidnapping and deportation of the democratically elected president Jean Bertrand Aristide. The coup was instigated by the US with the support of France and Canada.
The FRAPH units subsequently integrated the country's police force, which was under the supervision of MINUSTAH. In the political and social disarray triggered by the earthquake, the former armed militia and Ton Ton macoute will be playing a new role.
Hidden Agenda
The unspoken mission of US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM) with headquarters in Miami and US military installations throughout Latin America is to ensure the maintenance of subservient national regimes, namely US proxy governments, committed to the Washington Consensus and the neoliberal policy agenda. While US military personnel will at the outset be actively involved in emergency and disaster relief, this renewed US military presence in Haiti will be used to establish a foothold in the country as well pursue America's strategic and geopolitical objectives in the Caribbean basin, which are largely directed against Cuba and Venezuela.
The objective is not to work towards the rehabilitation of the national government, the presidency, the parliament, all of which has been decimated by the earthquake. Since the fall of the Duvalier dictatorship, America's design has been to gradually dismantle the Haitian State, restore colonial patterns and obstruct the functioning of a democratic government. In the present context, the objective is not only to do away with the government but also to revamp the mandate of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH), of which the headquarters have been destroyed.

"The role of heading the relief effort and managing the crisis quickly fell to the United States, for lack -- in the short term, at least -- of any other capable entity." ( US Takes Charge in Haiti _ With Troops, Rescue Aid - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/15/us/politics/AP-US-US-Haiti-Earthquake.html), January 14, 2009)
Prior to the earthquake, there were, according to US military sources, some 60 US military personnel in Haiti. From one day to the next, an outright military surge has occurred: 10,000 troops, marines, special forces, intelligence operatives, etc., not to mention private mercenary forces on contract to the Pentagon.
In all likelihood the humanitarian operation will be used as a pretext and justification to establish a more permanent US military presence in Haiti.
We are dealing with a massive deployment, a "surge" of military personnel assigned to emergency relief.
The first mission of SOUTHCOM will be to take control of what remains of the country's communications, transport and energy infrastructure. Already, the airport is under de facto US control. In all likelihood, the activities of MINUSTAH which from the outset in 2004 have served US foreign policy interests, will be coordinated with those of SOUTHCOM, namely the UN mission will be put under de facto control of the US military.
The Militarization of Civil Society Relief Organizations
The US military in Haiti seeks to oversee the activities of approved humanitarian organizations. It also purports to encroach upon the humanitarian activities of Venezuela and Cuba:

"The government under President René Préval is weak and literally now in shambles. Cuba and Venezuela, already intent on minimizing U.S. influence in the region, are likely to seize this opportunity to raise their profile and influence..." (James M. Roberts and Ray Walser, American Leadership Necessary to Assist Haiti After Devastating Earthquake (http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/wm2754.cfm), Heritage Foundation, January 14, 2010).
In the US, the militarization of emergency relief operations was instigated during the Katrina crisis, when the US military was called in to play a lead role.
The model of emergency intervention for SOUTHCOM is patterned on the role of NORTHCOM, which was granted a mandate as "the lead agency" in US domestic emergency procedures.

During Hurricane Rita in 2005, the detailed groundwork for the "militarization of emergency relief" involving a leading role for NORTHCOM was established. In this regard, Bush had hinted to the central role of the military in emergency relief: "Is there a natural disaster--of a certain size--that would then enable the Defense Department to become the lead agency in coordinating and leading the response effort? That's going to be a very important consideration for Congress to think about." (Statement of President Bush at a press conference, Bush Urges Shift in Relief Responsibilities - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/25/AR2005092501224.html), September 26, 2005).

"The response to the national disaster is not being coordinated by the civilian government out of Texas, but from a remote location and in accordance with military criteria. US Northern Command Headquarters will directly control the movement of military personnel and hardware in the Gulf of Mexico. As in the case of Katrina, it will override the actions of civilian bodies. Yet in this case, the entire operation is under the jurisdiction of the military rather than under that of FEMA." (Michel Chossudovsky, US Northern Command and Hurricane Rita (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=991), Global Research, September 24, 2005)
Concluding Remarks
Haiti is a country under military occupation since the US instigated Coup d'Etat of February 2004.

The entry of ten thousand heavily armed US troops, coupled with the activities of local militia could potentially precipitate the country into social chaos.

These foreign forces have entered the country to reinforce MINUSTAH "peacekeepers" and Haitian police forces (integrated by former Tonton Macoute), which since 2004, have been responsible for war crimes directed against the Haitian people, including the indiscriminate killing of civilians. (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16998)

These troups reinforce the existing occupation forces under UN mandate.

Twenty thousand foreign troops under SOUTHCOM and MINUSTAH commands will be present in the country. In all likelihood, there will be an integration or coordination of the command structures of SOUTHCOM and MINUSTAH.
The Haitian people have exhibited a high degree of solidarity, courage and social commitment.

Helping one another and acting with consciousness: under very difficult conditions, in the immediate wake of the disaster, citizens' rescue teams were set up spontaneously.
The militarization of relief operations will weaken the organizational capabilities of Haitians to rebuild and reinstate the institutions of civilian government which have been destroyed. It will also encroach upon the efforts of the international medical teams and civilian relief organisations.
It is absolutely essential that the Haitian people continue to forcefully oppose the presence of foreign troops in their country, particularly in public security operations.

It is essential that Americans across the land forcefully oppose the decision of the Obama adminstration to send US combat troops to Haiti.
There can be no real reconstruction or development under foreign military occupation.

[clue]

Dont post great walls of text.

Link to them, to support your own drivel.

The articles I've posted is my "drivel" to your arguments.

[LineDoggie]

I can do Wall O text too sparky doesnt mean much when you dont back it with your views.

[LineDoggie]

What Capabilities to the Humanitarian situation do the Carriers bring ClueLESS?

[SBL]

it shows just how ClueLESS you are.

Brazil has had troops on the ground in Haiti as part of the UN Mission Pre-Earthquake
China too.

[Dispatcher]

So, too please ol' Clue here, everyone's military should withdraw immediatly. Isnt that what you are implying, Clue?

Lets do that, and see how the NGO's **** up the airport, logistics, security, and government. Im sure the Haitians would very much like to see everyone leave, since they did such a smashing job themselves building a wealthy, good governed country. They did it once, they can do it again.


FFS.

[LineDoggie]

China too.
True but I dont have the updated ORBAT yet.
I do love the leftist babble he posted about the need to ban worldwide the word Looting:roll:

[clue]

So, too please ol' Clue here, everyone's military should withdraw immediatly. Isnt that what you are implying, Clue?

Lets do that, and see how the NGO's **** up the airport, logistics, security, and government. Im sure the Haitians would very much like to see everyone leave, since they did such a smashing job themselves building a wealthy, good governed country. They did it once, they can do it again.


Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.

[LineDoggie]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves. Why not just shoot them all in the head genius.

Without outside help more Haitians would die from disease, crime, starvation

[Zoomie]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.
You're so freaking all over the place in your postings, that all this would even make Camen Sandiego dizzy.

[SBL]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.
Oh man, you really are out there. This is brilliant.

[Dispatcher]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.


Thus ends the thread.

[clue]

Why not just shoot them all in the head genius.

Without outside help more Haitians would die from disease, crime, starvation

Standard natural consequences from overpopulation, mismanagement of resource, and multi-nation bullying. Works better than prolonging what is essentially a death sentence for being born a Haitian on the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere.

[LineDoggie]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves............................................http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/dunce.jpg

[BloodyTalon]

For those of you keeping score at home, Comrade Clue has posted the following:

. 5 links from 5 incredibly biased and unreliable Leftist websites

. 1 link that is copy from one of the aforementioned Leftist sites and quotes one of the most corrupt politicians in the United States.

. 1 op-ed column from a known supporter of Hugo "The US used their secret earthquake machine to destroy Haiti!" Chavez.


Meanwhile, he has failed to do the following...

. Provide concrete evidence of the claim that the US orchestrated the 2004 uprising in Haiti and kidnapped President Aristide

. Provide evidence that the humanitarian aide mission is a veiled invasion by the US.

. Provide evidence for why we would even want to invade a ****hole like Haiti.


Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.

waitwaitwaitwait: So, you've made this thread with links claiming that the humanitarian effort has been ruined by evil Capitalist America and its plans to conquer Haiti for its...precious Voodoo gods, but now you're claiming that not even the NGOs should be their and that all will be well if we allowed Haiti to fend for itself?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw

[Dispatcher]

Standard natural consequences from overpopulation, mismanagement of resource, and multi-nation bullying. Works better than prolonging what is essentially a death sentence for being born a Haitian on the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere.


You are quite a character. Here i was thinking you actually ment well for the haitians. In a sick and ****ed up way, but...

You consider them not worthy of help, know what that makes you?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

For clue:

"We should carry on constant propaganda among the people on the facts of world progress and the bright future ahead so that they will build their confidence in victory."

Mao Tse-tung
ON THE CHUNGKING NEGOTIATIONS
October 17, 1945

Link (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-4/mswv4_06.htm)

[Dispatcher]

For those of you keeping score at home, Comrade Clue has posted the following:

. 5 links from 5 incredibly biased and unreliable Leftist websites

. 1 link that is copy from one of the aforementioned Leftist sites and quotes one of the most corrupt politicians in the United States.

. 1 op-ed column from a known supporter of Hugo "The US used their secret earthquake machine to destroy Haiti!" Chavez.


Meanwhile, he has failed to do the following...

. Provide concrete evidence of the claim that the US orchestrated the 2004 uprising in Haiti and kidnapped President Aristide

. Provide evidence that the humanitarian aide mission is a veiled invasion by the US.

. Provide evidence for why we would even want to invade a ****hole like Haiti.


Thanks for the score. Is it halftime yet? I need a drink.

[SBL]

Standard natural consequences from overpopulation, mismanagement of resource, and multi-nation bullying. Works better than prolonging what is essentially a death sentence for being born a Haitian on the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere.

You are not making a lick of sense. Your solution for sparing Haitians an ill-defined "death sentence" by way of international economic/humanitarian aid, is to leave them to chaos and starvation.

[LineDoggie]

If My Neighbors house is on fire I try to make sure he and his family got out alive if I cant help him put the fire out, not nail his doors shut and yell "Suffer"

[SoftLion]

You're so freaking all over the place in your postings, that all this would even make Carmen Sandiego dizzy.

Fixed it for you and I laughed at your funny, +2 for you sir!

[LineDoggie]

Thanks for the score. Is it halftime yet? I need a drink. I think I need some Crack after this to get to his level of consciousness....

[Dispatcher]

:)


...............

[sgt_G]

Thanks for the score. Is it halftime yet? I need a drink.
there's wine with the popcorn Memmer?

[Castlegrade]

Withdraw military and withdraw NGOs, let the Haitians fend for themselves.

Wow.
You know, I started reading this thread thinking that you actually wanted the best for Haiti's people; that you thought efforts to help were being hampered. Now it seems you just want us to get out of the way of mass death.
And you think being a "neoliberal" is evil?

[Dispatcher]

there's wine with the popcorn Memmer?


This thread calls for hard booze.

[LineDoggie]

This thread calls for Everclear mixed with airplane glue

[szr]

Doh, looks like clue was hoping to come in here, drop some inflammatory article that was devoid of facts, and slither back off into the darkness in the ensuing chaos. He got called on it, and tried to screen himself behind a few defensive walls of text. When that didn't work, he was forced to come up with an opinion of his own on the fly, and the best he could manage was basically "f*ck 'em, let 'em die".

[sgt_G]

what are the going odds Clueless will be...
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4351/nextonthebannedlist300x.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/nextonthebannedlist300x.jpg/)

[saiko]

Damn, this ended on a tarded note. Why doesn't Clue just ask for all those evil-military corporations to bomb it while they leave...

[clue]

Meanwhile, he has failed to do the following...

1.. Provide concrete evidence of the claim that the US orchestrated the 2004 uprising in Haiti and kidnapped President Aristide

2. . Provide evidence that the humanitarian aide mission is a veiled invasion by the US.

3. . Provide evidence for why we would even want to invade a ****hole like Haiti.

1. Aristide's words and US motives.

2. Disasters always presents an opportunity to profit and advance agendas that are unpopular.

3. Human capital, ports, airfields, another base for stopgap against Cuba and Venezuela, basically: money and geopolitical interest.


but now you're claiming that not even the NGOs should be their and that all will be well if we allowed Haiti to fend for itself?


NGOs creates a moral hazard by insulating local government from responsibility of providing social and health service.

NGOs are unaccountable to the government of the territory they are operating in.

Often, NGOs gets involved after the crisis is created by Washington Consensus.


You are quite a character. Here i was thinking you actually ment well for the haitians. In a sick and ****ed up way, but...

You consider them not worthy of help, know what that makes you?

I consider them worthy of help. Just not from countries with a long list of historical colonial interest.


Wow.
You know, I started reading this thread thinking that you actually wanted the best for Haiti's people; that you thought efforts to help were being hampered. Now it seems you just want us to get out of the way of mass death.

It would be nice if all those Haitians could immigrate to US, but that's not happening is it?

[LineDoggie]

1. Aristide's words and US motives.

2. Disasters always presents an opportunity to profit and advance agendas that are unpopular.

3. Human capital, ports, airfields, another base for stopgap against Cuba and Venezuela, basically: money and geopolitical interest.



NGOs creates a moral hazard by insulating local government from responsibility of providing social and health service.

NGOs are unaccountable to the government of the territory they are operating in.

Often, NGOs gets involved after the crisis is created by Washington Consensus.



I consider them worthy of help. Just not from countries with a long list of historical colonial interest.



It would be nice if all those Haitians could immigrate to US, but that's not happening is it?

You like the gold krylon, its the shiznit

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/huffing.jpg

[sgt_G]

geez dude with your level of thinking:

A: we invaded New Orleans after Katrina

B: we should of just left said city locked out and quarantinned so that it would "miraculously" rebuild itself after "self cleansing" of the corrupt ones that still stayed there

C: expunge the state of Louisiana from the Union since it was "stolen" from the French who shouldn't have it anyway

BTW I hear that there were more shooting deaths in Chicago in 2009 than the whole Iraq war....think we should pull troops out of there too?

[LineDoggie]

Evil Imperialist attitude towards Haiti disaster= Help the populace, rebuild, save lives

Progressive Marxist attitude towards Haiti disaster= Let them die

[JJC]

Standard natural consequences from overpopulation, mismanagement of resource, and multi-nation bullying. Works better than prolonging what is essentially a death sentence for being born a Haitian on the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere. Nice!! you combined all the nut job left-wing theories and all the nut job right-wing theories, so there is nothing left to discuss for reasonable solutions. The imperial west is wrong, the corporations are to blame, the Haitians are to blame, the NGOs are to blame. Who is is right then, besides you?

[clue]

geez dude with your level of thinking:

A: we invaded New Orleans after Katrina

B: we should of just left said city locked out and quarantinned so that it would "miraculously" rebuild itself after "self cleansing" of the corrupt ones that still stayed there

C: expunge the state of Louisiana from the Union since it was "stolen" from the French who shouldn't have it anyway

BTW I hear that there were more shooting deaths in Chicago in 2009 than the whole Iraq war....think we should pull troops out of there too?

A: The proper word is revitalized and privatized, after rooting out the poor and blacks.

B: Aid should've been immediately be deployed.

C: No I wouldn't do that. Finders keepers.


Corporate media doublespeak in every high-coverage disaster zone = Help the populace, rebuild, save lives, USA is the savior. Logical non-interventionist attitude towards Haiti disaster= Let them be

Fixed.


Nice!! you combined all the nut job left-wing theories and all the nut job right-wing theories, so there is nothing left to discuss for reasonable solutions. The imperial west is wrong, the corporations are to blame, the Haitians are to blame, the NGOs are to blame. Who is is right then, besides you?

Cancel all debt to Haiti, no more strings attached loan from IMF. Ramp up international aid. Leave Haiti alone politically (ie. no long term base occupation for anybody except Haitians).

[LineDoggie]

What Long term Bases in Haiti? Name them. Then One Airport clearly isnt usable for Military purposes, nor is there the Infastructure needed for such tasks.

USA isnt the Savior of Haiti. USA is just one nation attempting the immense task of saving Haitian Lives, we have no Patent on the task, we just happen to be able to bring more resources quickly to get the job started. Hell the Israeli's Field Hospital is supposedly saving more people IIRC. Its an International effort.

[SBL]

1. Aristide's words and US motives.

He said "concrete evidence". Something that can be supported with actual facts of one kind or another.

2. Disasters always presents an opportunity to profit and advance agendas that are unpopular.

You mean like socialism? :lol:

3. Human capital, ports, airfields, another base for stopgap against Cuba and Venezuela, basically: money and geopolitical interest.

There is no need for any of that, strategic or otherwise. I mean, have have looked at a map recently, yes?



NGOs creates a moral hazard by insulating local government from responsibility of providing social and health service.

What about the moral hazard of consigning lives to the custody of corrupt, non-existent or otherwise ineffectual local governments?

NGOs are unaccountable to the government of the territory they are operating in.

Generally local governments reserve the right to expel NGOs at whim.

Often, NGOs gets involved after the crisis is created by Washington Consensus.

You mean like a tectonic weapon test?

I consider them worthy of help. Just not from countries with a long list of historical colonial interest.
Let's nevermind the fact that that help could save a lot of lives.

It would be nice if all those Haitians could immigrate to US, but that's not happening is it?

Well, you see, their country happens to be Haiti. Plenty have moved here in the past, and I'm sure plenty more will in the future.

[BloodyTalon]

1. Aristide's words
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: good one.


and US motives.
Which are...


2. Disasters always presents an opportunity to profit and advance agendas that are unpopular.
What profit and what agendas? You seem to be conveniently forgetting the part about Haiti being the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere by a long shot.


3. Human capital, ports, airfields, another base for stopgap against Cuba and Venezuela, basically: money and geopolitical interest.
rofl you're too funny. Alright let's just break down the bull**** one by one:

1. Money: WHAT MONEY? Again, Haiti isn't called the poorest country in the Americas for ****s and giggles. Its a terrible place for agriculture, it has no viable deposits of natural resources, any industry it had were either propped up by US grants and/or simply couldn't compete with other sources, and its infrastructure was shot to hell before the Earthquake. There is no valid economic reason to take over Haiti. Period.

2. Geopolitical Interest: Since when did we need another base to intimidate Cuba and Venezuela? The bases we have in the south of our own country is enough to deal with them. Hell, we even have a base on Cuban soil. Putting up a base in Haiti would have no significant strategic value and would only serve as a money pit that could be put to better use elsewhere.



NGOs creates a moral hazard by insulating local government from responsibility of providing social and health service.
Yes, cuz providing food and medical care is so immoral. :roll:

And exactly how the hell can the Haitian government provide social and health services? What little infrastructure they had was destroyed in the earthquake, leaving only a gaggle of disorganized and confused officials and a barely working airfield.


NGOs are unaccountable to the government of the territory they are operating in.
No they aren't. They can be prosecuted for criminal offenses just like any other foreigner visiting. And again, you can't show us how in the 9 Circles of Hell that the Haitian is in any shape to have the country recover on its own.


Often, NGOs gets involved after the crisis is created by Washington Consensus.
Are you implying that the 2004 Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake in Pakistan, and now the earthquake in Haiti were created by the US government? You know normally I would be shocked but considering that you support Aristide and Chavez, i'm not surprised if you believe that.

And another thing; you're awfully callous and selfish for someone who follows Leftist propaganda to the T, comrade. Have you no sympathy for your fellow Proletariat?

[sgt_G]

A: The proper word is revitalized and privatized, after rooting out the poor and blacks.

B: Aid should've been immediately be deployed.

C: No I wouldn't do that. Finders keepers.


ok assclown I got you nailed now

since you have NO CLUE what goes on out of your Che postered closet, New orleans STILL hasn't been revitalized or privatized or anything yet. it's still a mess in many parts but damn they are pushing! The so called poor and the blacks, you little conehead did not get "rooted out" many of them STAYED and SURVIVED and those that left came back to REBUILD as best as they could! But most of the "well off" fled never to return how do I know that?
oh gee I was there maybe?

contrary to your DSL is way too slow-I need a tofuburger before i order it-before right now mentality we don't have tons of relief aid sitting in a plane waiting to fly as soon as the panic button is stared at. there is a thing known as logistics staging come on say it with me l-o-g-i-s-t-i-c-s- s-t-a-g-i-n-g where things take time to go from warehouse to a plane/ship/choo choo to go to the effected area. unfortunately this stuff is usually far away from the disaster, theres a reason for that-it's so the stuff will be available and not in the disaster area! My unit landed in Louisiana 8 hours after the hurricane passed and we were in a kc-135 tanker! mind you we came from California! Yet we were held up when we landed by the fact there were few available trucks on the ground. why? it takes time to prep a truck for a C-130 and the airfields in New Orleans and surrounding wasn't adequate enough for C-5's at the time-we marched into town! (yeah not the fastest way but better than standing around) now you may ask your 15 IQ mind why were there no trucks? oh gee half of them were lost in the hurricane!

and lastly what you imply is we should have never even looked at the Louisiana territory, here's a trophy for you...
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4199/tard.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tard.jpg/)

[JJC]

Cancel all debt to Haiti, no more strings attached loan from IMF. Ramp up international aid. Leave Haiti alone politically (ie. no long term base occupation for anybody except Haitians). The NGOs that are inside right now are there ramping up aid, but few posts ago you wanted them to leave. The IMF and the World Bank does cancel debt to poor nations. the IMF strings are there to make sure that the corrupt governments don't completely misuse the funds either through theft or complete inability to use it properly. I didn't notice any occupations in Haiti, except from Red Cross, NGOs and private faith based groups taking care of the poor and unwanted in that country.
The countries that complain the most about the IMF and World bank are the least to fund them, but are happy to grab a loan from them.

[clue]

What Long term Bases in Haiti? Name them. Then One Airport clearly isnt usable for Military purposes, nor is there the Infastructure needed for such tasks.

USA isnt the Savior of Haiti. USA is just one nation attempting the immense task of saving Haitian Lives, we have no Patent on the task, we just happen to be able to bring more resources quickly to get the job started. Hell the Israeli's Field Hospital is supposedly saving more people IIRC. Its an International effort.

http://www.inteldaily.com/2010/01/us-says-it-will-stay-in-haiti-for-long-term/
US says it will stay in Haiti for long term

January 22, 2010
in North America (http://www.inteldaily.com/category/geopolitics/north-america/)

Despite criticism for the US military presence in quake-stricken Haiti, Washington says it has a long-term plan to stay in the country.


“We are there for the long term, this is not something that will be resolved quickly and easily,” US Ambassador to the UN Alejandro Wolff said on Thursday.


Just three days after a magnitude 7 earthquake jolted Haiti on January 12, the United States began to send military forces to the impoverished Caribbean nation.


The head of US Southern Command General Douglas Fraser said on Thursday that nearly 20,000 US troops are due to operate, both on land and offshore, by Sunday.


Currently over 2,676 US troops are operating on the ground in Haiti, Fraser said, adding the number is going to swell to 4,600 by the weekend and that another 10,445 are currently afloat aboard vessels offshore.


More than 4,000 other soldiers and Marines also left North Carolina late Wednesday.


This is while leading international aid organization, Medecins Sans Frontieres, blasted the US for putting the delivery of soldiers before medical supplies.



The presence of the US military, which has taken over command of the distribution of humanitarian aid, has raised the ire of some other countries including France, Nicaragua and Venezuela.


Paris demanded the United Nations investigate and clarify the dominant US role in Haiti.
Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega said Haiti seeks “humanitarian aid, not troops.”


Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez accused the US of seeking to occupy the country. “The United States government is using a humanitarian tragedy to militarily occupy Haiti. I read somewhere that they even occupied the [presidential] palace.”


Washington, in the past, has been accused of interfering in Haitian internal affairs on many occasions. The US military played a role in the departure of former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide before his second term was over in early 2004. Aristide described his departure as kidnapping.

Haiti was occupied by US Marines for nearly 20 years from 1915 to 1934. Former US President Bill Clinton sent troops to Haiti in 1994.



Well, you see, their country happens to be Haiti. Plenty have moved here in the past, and I'm sure plenty more will in the future.

He said "concrete evidence".
A leader's word is valid evidence.

You mean like socialism? :lol:
No, supporting local Haitian with wage increases, regulation for industries, enforcing taxes for foreign companies.

There is no need for any of that, strategic or otherwise. I mean, have have looked at a map recently, yes?
Another base is always useful.

What about the moral hazard of consigning lives to the custody of corrupt, non-existent or otherwise ineffectual local governments?
That's not a moral hazard.

Generally local governments reserve the right to expel NGOs at whim.
NGOs are freebies, they interfere from what is usually the government's duty.

You mean like a tectonic weapon test?
No, I meant IMF's structural adjustment loans. Another euphemism for loansharking a nation.

Let's nevermind the fact that that help could save a lot of lives.
So? There's enough homeless and unemployed in US, they should be saved first.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: good one.

1) Which are...

2) What profit and what agendas? You seem to be conveniently forgetting the part about Haiti being the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere by a long shot.
rofl you're too funny. Alright let's just break down the bull**** one by one:

3. Money: WHAT MONEY? Again, Haiti isn't called the poorest country in the Americas for ****s and giggles. Its a terrible place for agriculture, it has no viable deposits of natural resources, any industry it had were either propped up by US grants and/or simply couldn't compete with other sources, and its infrastructure was shot to hell before the Earthquake. There is no valid economic reason to take over Haiti. Period.

Geopolitical Interest: Since when did we need another base to intimidate Cuba and Venezuela? The bases we have in the south of our own country is enough to deal with them. Hell, we even have a base on Cuban soil. Putting up a base in Haiti would have no significant strategic value and would only serve as a money pit that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Yes, cuz providing food and medical care is so immoral. :roll:

And exactly how the hell can the Haitian government provide social and health services? What little infrastructure they had was destroyed in the earthquake, leaving only a gaggle of disorganized and confused officials and a barely working airfield.

No they aren't. They can be prosecuted for criminal offenses just like any other foreigner visiting. And again, you can't show us how in the 9 Circles of Hell that the Haitian is in any shape to have the country recover on its own.

4) Are you implying that the 2004 Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake in Pakistan, and now the earthquake in Haiti were created by the US government? You know normally I would be shocked but considering that you support Aristide and Chavez, i'm not surprised if you believe that.

And another thing; you're awfully callous and selfish for someone who follows Leftist propaganda to the T, comrade. Have you no sympathy for your fellow Proletariat?


1) Enforcing IMF and USAID agreements.

2) An opportunity to take advantage of poor nation for human and natural resource.

3) There is plenty of reasons to take over Haiti economically.

Majescor and SACG Discover a New Copper-Gold Showing and Outline a Distinct 650 m-Long by 300 m-Wide Copper-Bearing Zone on the SOMINE Property, Haiti
http://ca.us.biz.yahoo.com/ccn/091006/200910060559020001.html?.v=1

http://www.eurasianminerals.com/s/Haiti.asp
http://www.eurasianminerals.com/i/misc/haiti_new_map.jpg

4) Nope, I'm not saying that.


The NGOs that are inside right now are there ramping up aid, but few posts ago you wanted them to leave. The IMF and the World Bank does cancel debt to poor nations. the IMF strings are there to make sure that the corrupt governments don't completely misuse the funds either through theft or complete inability to use it properly. I didn't notice any occupations in Haiti, except from Red Cross, NGOs and private faith based groups taking care of the poor and unwanted in that country.
The countries that complain the most about the IMF and World bank are the least to fund them, but are happy to grab a loan from them.
IMF to Haiti: Freeze Public Wages

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/print

Now, in its attempts to help Haiti, the IMF is pursuing the same kinds of policies that made Haiti a geography of precariousness even before the quake. To great fanfare, the IMF announced a new $100 million loan (http://www.*******.com/article/idUSN1420120920100114) to Haiti on Thursday. In one crucial way, the loan is a good thing; Haiti is in dire straits and needs a massive cash infusion. But the new loan was made through the IMF's extended credit facility, to which Haiti already has $165 million in debt. Debt relief activists tell me that these loans came with conditions, including raising prices for electricity, refusing pay increases to all public employees except those making minimum wage and keeping inflation low. They say that the new loans would impose these same conditions. In other words, in the face of this latest tragedy, the IMF is still using crisis and debt as leverage to compel neoliberal reforms.
For Haiti, this is history repeated. As historians have documented, the impoverishment of Haiti began in the earliest decades of its independence, when Haiti's slaves and free gens de couleur rallied to liberate the country from the French in 1804. But by 1825, Haiti was living under a new kind of bondage--external debt. In order to keep the French and other Western powers from enforcing an embargo, it agreed to pay 150 million francs in reparations to French slave owners (yes, that's right, freed slaves were forced to compensate their former masters for their liberty). In order to do that, they borrowed millions from French banks and then from the US and Germany. As Alex von Tunzelmann pointed out (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6281614.ece), "by 1900, it [Haiti] was spending 80 percent of its national budget on repayments."
It took Haiti 122 years, but in 1947 the nation paid off about 60 percent, or 90 million francs, of this debt (it was able to negotiate a reduction in 1838). In 2003, then-President Aristide called on France (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/01/04/reparation_day/) to pay restitution for this sum--valued in 2003 dollars at over $21 billion. A few months later, he was ousted in a coup d'etat; he claims he left the country under armed pressure from the US.

[SBL]

The NGOs that are inside right now are there ramping up aid, but few posts ago you wanted them to leave. The IMF and the World Bank does cancel debt to poor nations. the IMF strings are there to make sure that the corrupt governments don't completely misuse the funds either through theft or complete inability to use it properly. I didn't notice any occupations in Haiti, except from Red Cross, NGOs and private faith based groups taking care of the poor and unwanted in that country.
The countries that complain the most about the IMF and World bank are the least to fund them, but are happy to grab a loan from them.
Clue might also want to ask himself where all that loan money went.

[LineDoggie]

http://www.inteldaily.com/2010/01/us-says-it-will-stay-in-haiti-for-long-term/
US says it will stay in Haiti for long term

January 22, 2010
in North America (http://www.inteldaily.com/category/geopolitics/north-america/)

Despite criticism for the US military presence in quake-stricken Haiti, Washington says it has a long-term plan to stay in the country.


“We are there for the long term, this is not something that will be resolved quickly and easily,” US Ambassador to the UN Alejandro Wolff said on Thursday.


Now your Quibbling. You inferred Long Term as in Permanent Bases (Like Grafenwoer, Vincenza, Camp Casey). the Ambassadors Long Term is for the time it takes to rebuild

[IraGlacialis]

Ramp up international aid.
From who may I ask will this international aid come from?
Because if I am untangling your convoluted arguement correctly, this means that the US, Russia, any large nation in the EU or the Arabian Peninsula, Turkey, Israel, China, Japan, India, Australia, NZ, and Brazil (among other nations) would be barred from giving aid as they either all had imperialistic/colonial ambitions or are capitalists. And any aid group from these countries would carry the political taint of the home nation, which would exclude them as well.

[clue]

From who may I ask will this international aid come from?
Because if I am untangling your convoluted arguement correctly, this means that the US, Russia, any large nation in the EU or the Arabian Peninsula, Turkey, Israel, China, Japan, India, Australia, NZ, and Brazil (among other nations) would be barred from giving aid as they either all had imperialistic/colonial ambitions or are capitalists. And any aid group from these countries would carry the political taint of the home nation, which would exclude them as well.

I should clarify further, international aid with no conditions.

[RICHICOQUI]

Anyone up for a game of clue? 106195

[szr]

I should clarify further, international aid with no conditions.Basically the same kind of international aid setup that Robert Mugabe has been seeking for Zimbabwe.

[IraGlacialis]

Anyone up for a game of clue?
The butler is behind this aid conspiracy?

[Zoomie]

I should clarify further, international aid with no conditions.
Last I checked, there are no conditions on the aid being given.

[SBL]

He said "concrete evidence".
A leader's word is valid evidence.

lol.
You mean like socialism? :lol:
No, supporting local Haitian with wage increases, regulation for industries, enforcing taxes for foreign companies.
What wages? What industry? FDI to Haiti can be measured in the millions- that's with an M. That's peanuts.

There is no need for any of that, strategic or otherwise. I mean, have have looked at a map recently, yes?
Another base is always useful.
In what way? Justify that expenditure in a practical manner for me.

What about the moral hazard of consigning lives to the custody of corrupt, non-existent or otherwise ineffectual local governments?
That's not a moral hazard.
It most certainly is.

Generally local governments reserve the right to expel NGOs at whim.
NGOs are freebies, they interfere from what is usually the government's duty.
Aaaaand a government may expel them at any time.

You mean like a tectonic weapon test?
No, I meant IMF's structural adjustment loans. Another euphemism for loansharking a nation.
That happens to be the nature of loans--they're offered in expectation of some return. Duh.

Let's nevermind the fact that that help could save a lot of lives.
So? There's enough homeless and unemployed in US, they should be saved first.

Plenty of organizations and social programs are geared towards doing just that.

[LineDoggie]

Wheres Anton Chigurh and his Cattle stunner when you need him?

[Sada]

For once I support a long mission of american forces in Haiti, first because if exists some kind of historical responsability its of them and second because they have all the necessary resources near home, and with all the financial assistance they can need of UE for rebuilding Hait, not a question of scarce money, I think a dollar spent in Haiti it´s more useful and cheap than a dollar spent in Afghanistan and I say it as a western one. Haiti was destroyed well before by the same haitians and some help of former colonial powers, now it´s history and the time of puting the blame has passed,the history coud be rewritten for good in Haiti, last chance.
And about what can be said dependig of what country I only know one thing: Big international institutions have asked for a pardom of haitian foreign debt with favourable acceptance, but it happens that Venezuela it´s the biggest creditor of Haiti and Chávez is deaf mute about this matter, interesting isn´t it?. Other country that could have a say about Haiti is Cuba, and since the beginning Cuba has granted freeway over cuban sky for american rescue planes and accordingly nor a word of criticism has been listened of cubans authorities about the american presence in Haiti. Furthermore, cuban rescue and assistance teams are workiing in Haiti since the begininig. All the blahblah about colonization of Haiti are nonsenses.

[sgt_G]

Wheres Anton Chigurh and his Cattle stunner when you need him?

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3331/whitefront46f7a11.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/whitefront46f7a11.jpg/)
he heard about the salerofl

[BloodyTalon]

1) Enforcing IMF and USAID agreements.
So according to you we are providing extensive economic and humanitarian aide to Haiti as a front...to provide extensive economic and humanitarian aide to Haiti...

Well someone's clearly working for the Department of Redundancy Department.


2) An opportunity to take advantage of poor nation for human and natural resource.

Again, that's under the assumption that Haiti has enough resources worth the costs of doing business there.


3) There is plenty of reasons to take over Haiti economically.

Majescor and SACG Discover a New Copper-Gold Showing and Outline a Distinct 650 m-Long by 300 m-Wide Copper-Bearing Zone on the SOMINE Property, Haiti
http://ca.us.biz.yahoo.com/ccn/091006/200910060559020001.html?.v=1
Oh wow, a potential Copper-Gold mine. That's totally gonna be worth the multi-billion dollar investment. :roll:[/QUOTE]


A leader's word is valid evidence.
Except when said former leader is a notoriously corrupt asshat who rigged the elections of his country, was booted out in an uprising, and makes baseless claims about the US without showing a shred of evidence to back it up.

Also, congrats on posting not one but TWO painfully biased and unreliable links. Do Socialists now take a page from China and pay you by the posts and links?

[clue]

1. So according to you we are providing extensive economic and humanitarian aide to Haiti as a front...to provide extensive economic and humanitarian aide to Haiti...

2. Again, that's under the assumption that Haiti has enough resources worth the costs of doing business there.

Oh wow, a potential Copper-Gold mine. That's totally gonna be worth the multi-billion dollar investment. :roll:
3. Except when said former leader is a notoriously corrupt asshat who rigged the elections of his country, was booted out in an uprising, and makes baseless claims about the US without showing a shred of evidence to back it up.

Also, congrats on posting not one but TWO painfully biased and unreliable links. Do Socialists now take a page from China and pay you by the posts and links?


1. Except USAID and IMF isn't "extensive economic and humanitarian aide".
2. Cost of doing business in a country with high unemployment and lax regulation is very inexpensive.
3. Those are accusations.



Last I checked, there are no conditions on the aid being given.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17042
"
All current financial aid announced following the earthquake is already lost to the debt repayment!

According to the latest estimates, over 80% of Haiti’s foreign debt is with the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank (IBD) with up to 40% each. Under their leadership, the government applied “structural adjustment plans”, now disguised as “Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers” (PRSP). In exchange for contracting more loans, Haiti has been given some insignificant amount of debt relief or cancellations, which cast the creditors in a positive light. The Highly Indebted Poor Countries initiative (HIPC), for which Haiti was accepted, is a typical odious-debt laundering manoeuvre, as was the case with the Democratic Republic of Congo[7]. Odious debt is replaced by new so-called legitimate loans. CADTM views these new loans as a key part of odious debt as they are used to pay off the old debt. The offence continues to be committed."

To: SBL

What wages? What industry? FDI to Haiti can be measured in the millions- that's with an M. That's peanuts.
Ideal climate for doing business is zero regulation, lack of government and regulation allows that.

In what way? Justify that expenditure in a practical manner for me.
In what way is this expenditure justifiable?

http://www.miprox.de/USA_speziell/US-Military-Bases-Worldwide.jpg

The justification isn't really the point, is it? Another base is always useful.

It most certainly is.
Incorrect, that is not moral hazard.

Aaaaand a government may expel them at any time.
I do not understand where you are going with this, I've only stated that NGO's duty are ideally done by the government. NGO is essentially giving the helpless a fish to eat instead of teaching them, once the NGOs leave, the helpless is still helpless.

Does Red Cross take care of your health care?

That happens to be the nature of loans--they're offered in expectation of some return. Duh.
Please familiarize yourself with the poverty effect of IMF and World Bank loans. It's not much different from loansharking, among reasons why developing countries without IMF/World Bank loans did much better.

Plenty of organizations and social programs are geared towards doing just that.
Your point?

[BloodyTalon]

1. Except USAID and IMF isn't "extensive economic and humanitarian aide".
Oh yeah, I forgot I was talking to a Commie. Clearly all that humanitarian aide being sent to Haiti is evil. The food is probably coated with cyanide. :roll:


2. Cost of doing business in a country with high unemployment and lax regulation is very inexpensive.
And is immediately offset by the fact that the country has piss poor infrastructure, piss-poor public order, and officials who have a liking for "tributes." You don't seem to be getting this whole "poorest country in the Western Hemisphere" thing.


3. Those are accusations.
No, what your golden boy Aristide makes are accusations, especially since they have zero evidence to back it up (no unit, no plane, etc.).


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17042
rofl why not post Infowars while you're at it?

[clue]

Oh yeah, I forgot I was talking to a Commie. Clearly all that humanitarian aide being sent to Haiti is evil. The food is probably coated with cyanide. :roll:

And is immediately offset by the fact that the country has piss poor infrastructure, piss-poor public order, and officials who have a liking for "tributes." You don't seem to be getting this whole "poorest country in the Western Hemisphere" thing.

Those "offsets" actually makes things easier, infrastructure will be paid for by international aid, public order will be restored by mercenaries, and officials will be paid for.



No, what your golden boy Aristide makes are accusations, especially since they have zero evidence to back it up (no unit, no plane, etc.).

rofl why not post Infowars while you're at it?

What's wrong globalresearch.ca?

I'm no fan of Aristide, but it's lesser of two evil.

I do not understand your incessant need for baseless ad hominems, how exactly am I a commie?

[Clear_blues]

Clue I hate to jump on the bash wagon but on the map you supplied there's a pinpointed location that says "Champagne discovery" please explain this, my Imperialistic mind is very confused.

[Zoomie]

All current financial aid announced following the earthquake is already lost to the debt repayment!

Can you actually do some thinking of your own, or do you just copy and paste stuff that doesn't even substantiate your claims?



http://www.miprox.de/USA_speziell/US-Military-Bases-Worldwide.jpg

The justification isn't really the point, is it? Another base is always useful.
Okay, so tell me where in Russia, China, Venezuela, and India that the US has troops stationed.

[LineDoggie]

Mexico would be interested as well......

[sgt_G]

and France-don't forget France!

[clue]

Can you actually do some thinking of your own, or do you just copy and paste stuff that doesn't even substantiate your claims?

You stated that international monetary support doesn't come with conditions, I pointed out to informations stating otherwise.



Okay, so tell me where in Russia, China, Venezuela, and India that the US has troops stationed.

You'll have to ask DoD, that's where the source is from.

[Zoomie]

You'll have to ask DoD, that's where the source is from.
Actually it's not. . .why would they quote themselves and not cite anyone?

Actually, I've just figured it out. . .it's counting the Embassy Marines. rofl

[LineDoggie]

Actaully not just DOD if you read your image, also Zoltan Grossman a Professor univ. of Madison who has Interns from G.I Voice- A War resister organization

[Dispatcher]

Clue; your logic is flawed, your sources questionable.

Head/Ass. Separate the two.

[SBL]

To: SBL

What wages? What industry? FDI to Haiti can be measured in the millions- that's with an M. That's peanuts.
Ideal climate for doing business is zero regulation, lack of government and regulation allows that.

In what way? Justify that expenditure in a practical manner for me.
In what way is this expenditure justifiable?

http://www.miprox.de/USA_speziell/US-Military-Bases-Worldwide.jpg

The justification isn't really the point, is it? Another base is always useful.

It most certainly is.
Incorrect, that is not moral hazard.

Aaaaand a government may expel them at any time.
I do not understand where you are going with this, I've only stated that NGO's duty are ideally done by the government. NGO is essentially giving the helpless a fish to eat instead of teaching them, once the NGOs leave, the helpless is still helpless.

Does Red Cross take care of your health care?

That happens to be the nature of loans--they're offered in expectation of some return. Duh.
Please familiarize yourself with the poverty effect of IMF and World Bank loans. It's not much different from loansharking, among reasons why developing countries without IMF/World Bank loans did much better.

Plenty of organizations and social programs are geared towards doing just that.
Your point?




1. The ideal climate for doing business is one where you stand to make a buck. This has not been the case with Haiti because the investment outstrips the return thanks to political instability, lack of significant resources or industrial base-- and evidenced by low Foreign Direct Investment of any kind.
Maybe with a little help from the international community, the situation can change enough to make conditions favorable towards direct investment, generating jobs, and revenue for Haitians.

2. I'd wager every one of those bases has a justifiable, strategic reason for being. Given the proximity of Caribbean nations to the continental US and to US bases, you'd have a hard time justifying another permanent installation right next door to Florida and Guantanamo Bay. Again, investment outstrips return. Not particularly useful.

3.Point taken, being unaware that moral hazard was a legal term and somewhat misunderstanding your argument. Given the current situation, I still posit that there is significant moral hazard of another sort in standing aside while Haitians die in droves. I reject that sort of legalism.

4. You were claiming they were unaccountable to the government. I'm arguing that they are so far as their continued operation in-country is concerned. Additionally, you seem to think that all NGOs are about handing out bottled water. There are many NGOs out there that focus on education, farming methods, and the like- teaching a man to fish, essentially.

Blue Cross, actually. But that's because I live in a functioning society.

5. As far as I can tell Haiti has resisted accepting such loans.

6.You brought it up, man.

[sgt_G]

Actually, I've just figured it out. . .it's counting the Embassy Marines. rofl

aww geez! :cantbeli: Zoomie your brilliant! You are hereby the official MP.net mythbuster woot

[clue]

Actually it's not. . .why would they quote themselves and not cite anyone?

Actually, I've just figured it out. . .it's counting the Embassy Marines. rofl

If you're just counting bases, not including detention sites like Gitmo.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/US-military-bases-2001-03.jpg

Another base in Haiti would be nice.


Clue; 1. your logic is flawed, your sources questionable.

Head/Ass. Separate the two.

1. How so?



1. The ideal climate for doing business is one where you stand to make a buck. This has not been the case with Haiti because the investment outstrips the return thanks to political instability, lack of significant resources or industrial base-- and evidenced by low Foreign Direct Investment of any kind.
Maybe with a little help from the international community, the situation can change enough to make conditions favorable towards direct investment, generating jobs for Haitians.

2. I'd wager every one of those bases has a justifiable, strategic reason for being. Given the proximity of Caribbean nations to the continental US and to US bases, you'd have a hard time justifying another permanent installation right next door to Florida and Guantanamo Bay. Again, investment outstrips return. Not particularly useful.

3.Point taken, being unaware that moral hazard was a legal term and somewhat misunderstanding your argument. Given the current situation, I still posit that there is significant moral hazard of another sort in standing aside while Haitians die in droves. I reject that sort of legalism.

4. You were claiming they were unaccountable to the government. I'm arguing that they are so far as their continued operation in-country is concerned. Additionally, you seem to think that all NGOs are about handing out bottled water. There are many NGOs out there that focus on education, farming methods, and the like- teaching a man to fish, essentially.

Blue Cross, actually. But that's because I live in a functioning society.

5. As far as I can tell Haiti has resisted accepting such loans.

6.You brought it up, man.

1. International aid can make conditions favorable for investment, except Haitians aren't expected to reap large benefits.

2. An airbase and US-friendly port is an investment. Permanent installation does not need to be justified.

3. Moral hazard is a economic term, not legal. There is no moral hazard by standing aside and taking a non-interventionist stance when it comes to ngos.

4. NGOs do not answer to local government, they are not influence by local government. NGOs are independent organizations. NGO's duties are suppose to be done by government, which is why their presence creates a moral hazard, as per #3, if there are NGOs, government would be less inclined to provide these services.

5. IMF loan has already been approved.
http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2010/pr1006.htm

[BloodyTalon]

Those "offsets" actually makes things easier, infrastructure will be paid for by international aid, public order will be restored by mercenaries, and officials will be paid for.
lol wut.

Now unless that international aide plans on paying until Haiti is a first world country, everything you mentioned still requires a considerable amount of money, and the only benefit that you've proven for this is a copper and gold deposit that, aside from the fact that how much revenue it will generate is up in the air, would never be enough to offset the amount of money it would take to get Haiti to a level to sustain large, modern business of that scale.


What's wrong globalresearch.ca?
Aside from the fact that every article as an anti-American slant and makes such absurd claims like Sarkozy being a CIA agent, nothing at all.


I'm no fan of Aristide, but it's lesser of two evil.
"lesser of two evils" implies that you still have a level of skepticism of his claims and policies knowing that he is insincere at best, not accept everything he claims as fact even though he has absolutely zero evidence to back it up.


I do not understand your incessant need for baseless ad hominems, how exactly am I a commie?
Almost every link that you've posted, especially the ones with the most dubious reliability, have been from websites that are blatantly leaning to the Hard Left. If the Che Guevara t-shirt fits...

[sgt_G]

hey even the "russia strong" crew aren't backing him up....reminds me of that thread where the yo-yo cried to those stormfront retards for help!

and you notice that recent map is from another "U.S. out of everywhere" site?

good thing I got that mega bag of popcorn!

[SBL]

1. International aid can make conditions favorable for investment, except Haitians aren't expected to reap large benefits.

2. An airbase and US-friendly port is an investment. Permanent installation does not need to be justified.

3. Moral hazard is a economic term, not legal. There is no moral hazard by standing aside and taking a non-interventionist stance when it comes to ngos.

4. NGOs do not answer to local government, they are not influence by local government. NGOs are independent organizations. NGO's duties are suppose to be done by government, which is why their presence creates a moral hazard, as per #3, if there are NGOs, government would be less inclined to provide these services.

5. IMF loan has already been approved.
http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2010/pr1006.htm
1. Better than the status quo, and certainly better than letting Haitians die off in large numbers. That's quite a benefit.

2. It's certainly an investment, a big one. But again proximity to other installations makes it redundant.

3. Same difference. I was speaking of another kind of morality, but that was obviously lost on you. Let 'em die, right?

4. Ugh, how many times do I have to repeat myself? Better yet, how many times are you going to repeat yourself? Sometimes governments either won't, or can't provide services to their people, flat out. NGOs allow for some modicum of improvement.

5. Does that qualify as a structural adjustment loan?

[sepheronx]

hey even the "russia strong" crew aren't backing him up....reminds me of that thread where the yo-yo cried to those stormfront retards for help!

and you notice that recent map is from another "U.S. out of everywhere" site?

good thing I got that mega bag of popcorn!

I never would have figured that Kazakhstan had US military bases........

If they are counting transport nations for aid to troops in Afghanistan, then Russia wasn't listed.

Anyway, why would RussiaStrong group come in here to back him up? No different then you retards fighting with the same person over and over again. You both look like idiots.

[Zoomie]

I never would have figured that Kazakhstan had US military bases........

It doesn't. There were rumors that the US tried negotiating for one, but nothing has been substantiated.

[sgt_G]

...buzzkill

[sepheronx]

It doesn't. There were rumors that the US tried negotiating for one, but nothing has been substantiated.

I know, I was joking. It would never have military bases, as Kazakhstan is a CSTO member.

This thread blows. But reading over what everyone here says reminds me of the bull**** in any other thread but with a different country listed. Either the jerks that are namecountryhereSTRONG!!!1! would complain saying it is false info or socialist/capitalist propaganda, or some other stupid ****.

Should we be helping Haiti? Yes. Should we be occupying it? No. Should we teach Haiti how to be self reliant? Yes. should Private organizations help? The more the merrier. Does this mean companies may come in and USA will invade? No. Just means that jobs can be created and maybe curb poverty a tad more then before. A job is better then no job.

[sgt_G]

Should we be helping Haiti? Yes. Should we be occupying it? No. Should we teach Haiti how to be self reliant? Yes. should Private organizations help? The more the merrier. Does this mean companies may come in and USA will invade? No. Just means that jobs can be created and maybe curb poverty a tad more then before. A job is better then no job.

the way Clue keeps running around no one should help and Haiti should be left to it's own device period. anything else is an invasion or a corporate takeover

[Nano]

the way Clue keeps running around no one should help and Haiti should be left to it's own device period. anything else is an invasion or a corporate takeover
Well in his defense not that it matters Haiti has been getting help from a variety of sources both government and corporate and it has not helped much other than make a very few Haitians very well off. Things just have not worked for Haiti for any number of reasons one culprit being the reliance on outside aid(welfare) rather than developing some self reliance.
Perhaps Israel and the U.S. would be so kind as to cooperate and build a desalination plant like the one being planned in Israel and have the Haitians trained to properly run it themselves.

Yeah I think not, most people are interested in making a quick buck in Haiti because of it's location and cheap labor; not make a real long term investment that benefits everyone involved. I can certainly trust a man more that tells me he wants to help by making some money, but I find it very suspicious that one would do so for no apparent benefit.

[sgt_G]

Things just have not worked for Haiti for any number of reasons one culprit being the reliance on outside aid(welfare) rather than developing some self reliance..

you get no argument from me there I mean is it that hard to...I dunno open casino's or something?



Perhaps Israel and the U.S. would be so kind as to cooperate and build a desalination plant like the one being planned in Israel and have the Haitians trained to properly run it themselves.

our desal plants blow chunks maybe we could get Saudi Arabia into the mix on that...who knows?

[Nano]

you get no argument from me there I mean is it that hard to...I dunno open casino's or something?




our desal plants blow chunks maybe we could get Saudi Arabia into the mix on that...who knows?
There has been a number of companies that have invested/started up business there, but found it difficult to maintain because of a lack essential needs. Like food and water being one.
If I had the money I'd start a farm or something that feeds into an export business.

Yeah well they are short in drinkable water for one reason or another. It helps things move along if people have at least a reliable source of safe drinking water.

[clue]

lol wut.

1. Now unless that international aide plans on paying until Haiti is a first world country, everything you mentioned still requires a considerable amount of money, and the only benefit that you've proven for this is a copper and gold deposit that, aside from the fact that how much revenue it will generate is up in the air, would never be enough to offset the amount of money it would take to get Haiti to a level to sustain large, modern business of that scale.

2. Aside from the fact that every article as an anti-American slant and makes such absurd claims like Sarkozy being a CIA agent, nothing at all.

3. "lesser of two evils" implies that you still have a level of skepticism of his claims and policies knowing that he is insincere at best, not accept everything he claims as fact even though he has absolutely zero evidence to back it up.

4. Almost every link that you've posted, especially the ones with the most dubious reliability, have been from websites that are blatantly leaning to the Hard Left. If the Che Guevara t-shirt fits...

1. Who says anything have to be "modern"? You don't need paved roads or major infrastructure for exploitation of cheap labor. Security duty can be handled by UN.

2. The site is not responsible for the views of their contributors, which tends be from everywhere. I wouldn't call that site anti-American, just critical of American policies.

3. Between a leader of an impoverished nation and a nation with a habit of supporting coups, I'll begrudgingly accept the word of the leader of an impoverished nation.

4. Political leaning does not define reliability, it doesn't matter if it's from the left, right, or moderate. If you people bothered to click on the link int he OP, it would show sources, from all different political leanings (*******, Heritage.org, Guardian UK, WaPo, IPS. etc).


1. Better than the status quo, and certainly better than letting Haitians die off in large numbers. That's quite a benefit.

2. It's certainly an investment, a big one. But again proximity to other installations makes it redundant.

3. Same difference. I was speaking of another kind of morality, but that was obviously lost on you. Let 'em die, right?

4. Ugh, how many times do I have to repeat myself? Better yet, how many times are you going to repeat yourself? Sometimes governments either won't, or can't provide services to their people, flat out. NGOs allow for some modicum of improvement.

5. Does that qualify as a structural adjustment loan?

1. That's a mild benefit.
2. Redundancy is useful.
3. An overpopulated island with dwindling resource needs an adjustment in population equilibrium, since US Coast Guards are turning away Haitian refugees.
4. NGOs allow for some modicum of improvement, ok.
5. Structural adjustments are conditions in loans, they're standard for IMF loans.

A weak defenseless country presents a business opportunity, easily exploitable locals, lax regulation, not much to stop one from going in and taking advantage of the situation.

[BloodyTalon]

1. Who says anything have to be "modern"? You don't need paved roads or major infrastructure for exploitation of cheap labor. Security duty can be handled by UN.
So its now UN peacekeepers? Pray tell what happened to the mercenaries and US soldiers?

Now, considering that Haiti resources are at best miniscule and at worst practically barren, the only way any company is gonna be able to make a buck there is by heavy manufacturing, which requires a hefty infrastructure that, in this country's case, not only needs to be built up from scratch but would end up being a very time consuming and costly effort compared to simply building a plant in a country that can already sustain it (China, India, Indonesia, etc.) or even just building it in the US and not having to bother with rebuilding an entire country.


2. The site is not responsible for the views of their contributors, which tends be from everywhere. I wouldn't call that site anti-American, just critical of American policies.
Bull.

If the site posts it, it is responsible for its views. And again, the site isn't exactly "critical" as much as its "THE AMERICANS ARE OUT TO GET US QUICK INTO THE BUNKER!"


3. Between a leader of an impoverished nation and a nation with a habit of supporting coups, I'll begrudgingly accept the word of the leader of an impoverished nation.
So you "begrudgingly" take the word of the man who makes accusations with no concrete evidence whatsoever because he's not American? Well now I know why you think globalresearch.ca is such a reliable source.


4. Political leaning does not define reliability, it doesn't matter if it's from the left, right, or moderate. If you people bothered to click on the link int he OP, it would show sources, from all different political leanings (*******, Heritage.org, Guardian UK, WaPo, IPS. etc).
:lol: poor little naive Clue. Why do you think channels like FoxNews and MSNBC get criticisms from the left and right? The more a news group shows political bias, the more its impartiality should be questioned. If you honestly believe that a site that is the official news blotter for a Communist organization is just about as reliable as *******, then you have a fairly warped view of journalistic integrity at best, or are a complete sheep at worst.

And to borrow from your half-arsed replies to SBL:


2. Redundancy is useful.
Not when it needlessly stretches out resources, puts said resources well within striking distance of potential foes, is a drain on funds that could go elsewhere, etc. The Starbucks approach doesn't work when establishing bases. Something tells me you don't have any experience in the military, or any large organization for that matter.

[Ought Six]

c:
"What's wrong globalresearch.ca?"It is a tinfoil hat 9/11 troother conspiracy theory site. It is, like all your sources, just so much pseudoinformational effluent.

[clue]

1) So its now UN peacekeepers? Pray tell what happened to the mercenaries and US soldiers?

2) Now, considering that Haiti resources are at best miniscule and at worst practically barren, the only way any company is gonna be able to make a buck there is by heavy manufacturing, which requires a hefty infrastructure that, in this country's case, not only needs to be built up from scratch but would end up being a very time consuming and costly effort compared to simply building a plant in a country that can already sustain it (China, India, Indonesia, etc.) or even just building it in the US and not having to bother with rebuilding an entire country.

Bull.

3) If the site posts it, it is responsible for its views. And again, the site isn't exactly "critical" as much as its "THE AMERICANS ARE OUT TO GET US QUICK INTO THE BUNKER!"

4) So you "begrudgingly" take the word of the man who makes accusations with no concrete evidence whatsoever because he's not American? Well now I know why you think globalresearch.ca is such a reliable source.

5)
:lol: poor little naive Clue. Why do you think channels like FoxNews and MSNBC get criticisms from the left and right? The more a news group shows political bias, the more its impartiality should be questioned. If you honestly believe that a site that is the official news blotter for a Communist organization is just about as reliable as *******, then you have a fairly warped view of journalistic integrity at best, or are a complete sheep at worst.

And to borrow from your half-arsed replies to SBL:

6) Not when it needlessly stretches out resources, puts said resources well within striking distance of potential foes, is a drain on funds that could go elsewhere, etc. The Starbucks approach doesn't work when establishing bases. Something tells me you don't have any experience in the military, or any large organization for that matter.

1) Security of any kind works, be it UN, soldiers, or mercenaries. It would depend on what's available.

2) Taking advantage of low cost labor does not require rebuilding Haiti. You can assume Haiti's resource is "minuscule". St. Genevieve Resource, Majescor, Eurasia Mineral, and Cintas disagree. That's just 4 companies, there is likely a lot more. One does not need to resort to "heavy manufacturing" to reap profit. Your claims are presumptious and ludicrous that one requires "hefty infrastructure" to set industries.

3) The disclaimer on the site says the writers are responsible for their views, not the site. I don't see anything on globalresearch.ca that's damaging to Americans.



Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are the sole responsibility of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the Centre for Research on Globalization. The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible or liable for any inaccurate or incorrect statements contained in this article.4) I look at the issue, I look at the motive, I look at the historical significance. It leans favorably towards Aristide.

5) Information dissemination does not fall on political leaning. It falls on accuracy. Reuter is not perfectly reliable, it is a privately owned media correspondent. News from MSNBC and FOX are reliable when they are factual. I do not discount MSNBC or FOX just because they're MSNBC or FOX, the same stance is given to any information coming from neo-con sources or liberal sources. Attacking the source is ad hominem, it does not foster logical arguments, to discredit the source, provide counter-arguments (if they exist).

6) For the world's largest military, redundancy works and is beneficial. Getting control of an airbase plus a port in Haiti doesn't "stretches out resources" neither is it a big "drain on funds".


c:It is a tinfoil hat 9/11 troother conspiracy theory site. It is, like all your sources, just so much pseudoinformational effluent.

I ignore the tinfoil hat 9/11 stuff, the credibility of each individual articles are provided by their citations and links to other more "credible" sources.

[BloodyTalon]

2) Taking advantage of low cost labor does not require rebuilding Haiti. You can assume Haiti's resource is "minuscule". St. Genevieve Resource, Majescor, Eurasia Mineral, and Cintas disagree. That's just 4 companies, there is likely a lot more. One does not need to resort to "heavy manufacturing" to reap profit. Your claims are presumptious and ludicrous that one requires "hefty infrastructure" to set industries.
[/QUOTE]
Oh yes it does, unless you propose that the multinationals build work compounds like the ones in China and other parts of Asia, which in that case means that the companies will have to blow more money on potentially little gain.

3 copper mining companies and 1 uniform manufacturer doing small business there hardly constitutes the need for Imperialism in the country. While these individual corporations have benefited, operations in Haiti hardly make the bulk of their operations for a good reason.


3) The disclaimer on the site says the writers are responsible for their views, not the site. I don't see anything on globalresearch.ca that's damaging to Americans.
And that's what we like to call a "cop out". They posted the article, therefore they gave it approval.


4) I look at the issue, I look at the motive, I look at the historical significance. It leans favorably towards Aristide.
And in the process you don't look at any evidence other than what one person whose integrity is just as dubious as the country you oppose. Like Linedoggie as mentioned, Aristide hasn't even bothered to detail exactly which unit took him, which plain spirited him away, etc. Only "I wuz just mindin mah own buz'ness then suddenly' i wuz abducted!"


5) Information dissemination does not fall on political leaning. It falls on accuracy. Reuter is not perfectly reliable, it is a privately owned media correspondent. News from MSNBC and FOX are reliable when they are factual. I do not discount MSNBC or FOX just because they're MSNBC or FOX, the same stance is given to any information coming from neo-con sources or liberal sources. Attacking the source is ad hominem, it does not foster logical arguments, to discredit the source, provide counter-arguments (if they exist).
If that was the case, then Infowars would be held in the same regard as *******. If a group has an obvious political agenda, they inevitably going to only disseminate information that forwards their agenda as well as distort or even fabricate other news stories to continue this trend. For instance, going back to your delusional insistence that the big bad Americans stuffed Aristide in a burlap sack and plopped him in the middle of Pretoria, the articles you linked to as proof of this did not back up their claims when any of the information Linedoggie and others have requested, only stated that it happened and left it at that as if Jesus Himself descended from the Heavens and said "Yep, that totally happened" and then promptly left.


6) For the world's largest military, redundancy works and is beneficial. Getting control of an airbase plus a port in Haiti doesn't "stretches out resources" neither is it a big "drain on funds".

And if the fact that you're username is hilariously ironic wasn't clear already, it is now.

The US military isn't the largest in the world, and its resources, while massive, are still finite. Building a base that cannot be nearly as large as the ones in the US and puts personnel and assets in striking distance for no reason other than "cuz we can lol" is terrible strategic thinking. Again, building a base in Haiti when we already have dozens in the Southeast US is like absolutely pointless.

[seraosha]

Clue, I spent a lot of time in Haiti trying to rebuild their democracy a long time ago, and honestly...there in nothing in Haiti that we as a country want or need.

Cheap labor is not in short supply in the world, and we could find better educated "serfs" ready to be put in harness if that was our goal.
There is no oil reserves there.
There are no rare minerals, wood, water, resources or anything we couldn't buy cheaper somewhere else.
We own the Carribean already, and that includes Cuba.
Aristide was put back in power by us when I was there, and he was a loon on drugs and mentally ill...we couldn't believe that we were spending our time and lives on putting him back in power, but we soldiered on, as UN Peacekeepers, to accomplish the mission.

I've been there, and by what I've seen on TV and read online, it's even more of a dump than when I last looked at it.
Tell you what, charter a boat or a plane ticket, go there and come back and tell us what you really think about it...not what some website tells you is going on.
I'm as cynical as anyone here, and the honest rebuilding efforts, recovery and rescue are not being done to line the pockets of some corporate slimeball, but to help out those that are less fortunate than us. Altruisim is rare, and is seldom pure, but there just isn't the justification for any exploitation of a people so downtrodden that you are accusing the US of.

[gilgoul]

People like this "clue" make me vomit my evening pasta.
They dance on the bloated corpses of the victims, looking for something to justify the hate they hold, either to blame someone for their shortcomings or because they hate their own country/civilization.

eat a bullet

[LineDoggie]

1) Security of any kind works, be it UN, soldiers, or mercenaries. It would depend on what's available. Define Mercenaries.....



4) I look at the issue, I look at the motive, I look at the historical significance. It leans favorably towards Aristide. only from his word and extreme leftist sites.

Again, Aristide says he was Kidnapped byt the US Marine Corps? Name the Unit involved was it 6th Marine Division?

What Marine Corps Aircraft was used, what was its BuNo Tail Number? surely the Haitian Aviation Authorites would have a record of such an aircraft landing in its logs. Surely the Indymedia sources which can pull CIA rendition flight tail numbers out of thin air could have by now 6 years later have identified the aircraft used. Surely someone on the flight crew or unit involved would have leaked (even inadvertantly) the details.

Surely whever the flight took him to in a foreign country would have the details and by now how publicized it.





6) For the world's largest military, redundancy works and is beneficial. Getting control of an airbase plus a port in Haiti doesn't "stretches out resources" neither is it a big "drain on funds". Want to bet on that? the units involved were scheduled to ship to Afghanistan and their Trainup was 86'd for this. Now another units will have to go and you dont think the scheduling costs money? Again your ClueLESS..... As to the Airbase, from a Military stanpoint its a piece of crap. It's a single runway
http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=HA86034&sch=MTPP which means its ability to handle large numbers of flights typical in Military airfileds is limited. If god forbid something blocks said runway no other way to land or get fixed wing A/C airborne.