CHINA: Second Thoughts About Tibet? [Archive]

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 06:02 PM

Course Correction
China has failed, despite billions of dollars in aid, to win over Tibetan loyalty. And now Beijing is finally realizing just how badly it mishandled things.
By Sudip Mazumdar | Newsweek Web Exclusive

Jan 27, 2010

After the mass riots there in March 2008, Tibet faded once again into relative obscurity—the province of foreign-affairs wonks, adventure tourists, and a few well-organized protest groups who object to China's rule there. But during that time, Beijing has come slowly to two painful realizations. First, the restive plateau it had treated for decades as a colony is central to its national plan: development and stability are "vital to ethnic unity, social stability, and national security," President Hu Jintao recently told his Politburo. And second, a corollary realization: China's government has been mishandling the issue of Tibet all along.

It's true that the government in Beijing bridles at anything that reeks of secessionism. Just last week, Hu kept up his public attack on the "separatist forces led by the Dalai clique." The Chinese leadership is against the "meaningful autonomy" demanded by the Dalai Lama, who is described over and over as a "separatist" bent on fomenting trouble and splitting Tibet from China.

But though local riots looked bad in the press, they never really threatened control of Tibet. And the Dalai Lama has consistently maintained that he does not want to separate Tibet from China. World leaders who have met him seem convinced of his sincerity and nonviolent approach to solving the Tibet issue.

So as concerns about actual separatism receded, China's leaders recognized they really need a plan to govern the province. The money they had spent to buy the loyalty of Tibetans ($45.6 billion since 2001 for roads, trains, and housing complexes) had more or less come to nothing. "Even the most massive infusions of funds have never been able to buy the affection of the people," says Tibetologist Parvez Dewan, who has just coauthored a book called Tibet: Fifty Years Afterwith Siddharth Srivastava. "You can't get rid of the alienation of a people through development." Even in the less-authoritarian neighboring Chinese provinces of Sichuan, Gansu, Yunnan, and Qinghai—where a majority of the 6.5 million Tibetans live—discontent among ethnic Tibetans is widespread. (Nearly 1,500 monks from the famous Labrang Monastery in Gansu province took to streets in the 2008 uprising that also sparked Tibetan protests in Qinghai and Sichuan.)

That's why last week, after nearly 15 months of trading barbs—Beijing had shut down relations after the Olympic spotlight went dark—China's leadership invited the Dalai Lama's government in exile (based in the north Indian town of Dharamsala) back to talks about the province's future. Soon, two of the Dalai Lama's representatives, Lodi Gyari and Kelsang Gyaltsen, left for China along with three of their aides.

These talks are not going to solve the 50-year-old problem, which began with the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet after a failed uprising against the invading Chinese Army in 1959. But the administration of President Hu (who was himself in charge of Tibet in the late 1980s) seems serious about helping to develop the province.

Fifty Years After brims with surprise at the affluent, breathtakingly planned city that Lhasa has become—with sparkling six-lane roads and glass-front shops that sell all the top international designer labels. "But we could not find any Tibetan who showed his loyalty to the Chinese," says Dewan. The authors also found that Tibetans remained excluded from most senior-level jobs. For example, of the nine top officials in the Tibet Mineral Development Co. Ltd., seven are ethnic Han Chinese, the largest group in China. (Officially the province is run by an ethnic Tibetan governor named Pema Thinley, a hawkish military commander, but real power lies with Communist Party Secretary Zhang Qingli, an ethnic Han.) Similarly, they point out that of the nearly 13,000 shops and restaurants in Lhasa, barely 300 are owned by Tibetans. "And despite the threat of punishment, we found deep respect and admiration for the Dalai Lama," says Dewan. Tibetan exiles say that nearly 60 percent of Lhasa's more than half a million people are now Han Chinese immigrants, although the Chinese-government census disputes that claim. But Dewan and Srivastava point out that the vast number of Chinese troops and officials, as well as the floating population of Chinese traders and businessmen, are not counted in Tibet's census. "You can see nattily dressed handsome Chinese men and women everywhere in Lhasa," says Dewan.

Suddenly, then, the Dalai Lama is not the problem but rather a pivotal part of the solution. As Tibet expert and author Robert Thurman says, the Dalai Lama is the key to giving China legitimate sovereignty over Tibet as an autonomous region within China because he would inspire his people to stay inside China in case of a referendum on independence. His growing following within mainland China (the number of Chinese Buddhists attending the Dalai Lama's teaching sessions in Dharamsala is growing quickly) can also help calm the simmering discontent among the Chinese who have been left untouched by the benefits of China's impressive economic growth, which has created a hunger for spiritual growth.

The Dalai Lama will be 75 in July. He is revered by the Tibetans and admired around the world. Any deal with him will have the unquestioned legitimacy and support that is so vital to China's aspirations. And his absence will spell uncertainty and a lack of moral authority over Tibetans—which can only hinder China's aim of becoming a global superpower.

It would be naive to expect President Hu to recant overnight the Tibet policies that he himself devised and executed over the years. But it's not quite so farfetched to see him inching in that direction during his last few years in office as China's supreme leader, or even organizing a face-to-face meeting with the Dalai Lama before he leaves. It would not only make him a frontrunner for a Nobel Prize but also bring China the respect and admiration that it so acutely lacks.

Find this article at
http://www.newsweek.com/id/232606

2495

01-27-2010, 06:15 PM

Money does not pay or make amends for dead friends, families or loved ones. Chinas elite needs to burn in Hell for what it has done to Tibet. Sorry for the rant but dammit, Tibet should be preserved as a site of supreme cultral significance to the world.

I hope the Chinese fail miserablely in their attempts to buy affections. Oh and Tony Blair you bastard, I still am pissed about your fawning to the Chinese when we protested during their visit. Spineless bastard.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 07:16 PM

Ordie

01-27-2010, 07:21 PM

You Stand Tall in your convictions and I deeply respect that. China(ese) need(s) to leave Tibet Period.

It's not in our best interest.

If Tibet goes, the CCP will be out of a job and its replacement would be hard core Chinese nationalist (with nukes).

I foresse a "One Country-Four Systems" as an acceptable compromise.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 07:24 PM

It's not in our best interest.

If Tibet goes, the CCP will be out of a job and its replacement would be hard core Chinese nationalist (with nukes).

I foresse a "One Country-Four Systems" as an acceptable compromise.

I never said, CCP needs to stay intact. Once it goes...money takes over and we can then certainly deal with the power players...

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 07:26 PM

Also, Ordie, what do think CCP is morphing into ...? Is is not becoming, what you warns will replace it...>

Ordie

01-27-2010, 07:53 PM

Also, Ordie, what do think CCP is morphing into ...? Is is not becoming, what you warns will replace it...>

Because the Communist Party has yet to win an election, it's legitimacy to govern will always be questioned. Not unless they deliver positive economic growth rate, defend Chinese soverignty, and meet people's daily expectations.

If Tibet goes, the Chinese Communist party will lose its mandate to govern.
Whomever replaces it, will seek retribution on Tibet to gain legitimacy of the Chinese people.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:03 PM

Because the Communist Party has yet to win an election, it's legitimacy to govern will always be questioned. Not unless they deliver positive economic growth rate, defend Chinese soverignty, and meet people's daily expectations.

If Tibet goes, the Chinese Communist party will lose its mandate to govern.
Whomever replaces it, will seek retribution on Tibet to gain legitimacy of the Chinese people.

Ordie, I think, CCP is legitimacy has always been in question will remain so in fufutre. As far as defending Chinese soverignty is concerned. The world knows, Tibet is not China, but a forced occupation.
So this fear of whoever replaces it is totally overblown. After loosing Tibet, whoever comes in power will be greatly weakened and the threat of nukes is simply bogus.
First thing, they will need ensure that the billion plus people don't turn on them will keep them busy for a long time, till things take care of themselves internally...

2495

01-27-2010, 08:13 PM

Solvent

01-27-2010, 08:17 PM

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:18 PM

2495 - It has been a never ending tragedy for last 50+ years and unfortunately won't end anytime soon....

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:21 PM

China is way to far for you to reach. Why don't you do something substantial? Like find a gun to fight your spineless government.

In todays world, you don't need to travel far... You just vote with your dollars/euros/yens etc.., and in time the message will get through...

Ordie

01-27-2010, 08:22 PM

The world knows, Tibet is not China, but a forced occupation..

Try convincing 1.3 billion people.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:29 PM

2495

01-27-2010, 08:32 PM

Try convincing 1.3 billion people.

1.3 billion people who's only voice is what they are told to say and only opinion is what they are told to think. Be a hard job cracking that communist bull sh1t for sure.

Solvent

01-27-2010, 08:32 PM

In todays world, you don't need to travel far... You just vote with your dollars/euros/yens etc.., and in time the message will get through...

Nowadays, money is scarce thing. Let's see how much you can get to vote.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 08:38 PM

nothing is worse than theocracy. period. as long as dalai lama wants to convert his religion power into political influence, he will not be allowed to set his feet on the soil of china again.

if he is smart enough, he should step aside and enjoy his remining time. if american people or indians or whoever want a living god in the house, you are very welcome to bring him home.

btw, the collapse of ccp will lead to a lot bad things to tibetians and uyghurs. especially the later. believe or not, ccp is the only guardian protecting them from revange seeking nationalists.

Ordie

01-27-2010, 08:39 PM

No one needs to convince them, they all the truth too well. either they choose to ignore or just can't standup for for what they believe in and put with this BS.
Also, don't discount rest us....last time I checked world pop is close to 6.7 billion, so that leaves 5.4+ billion....

The majority of whom don't give a damn about Tibet.

Regardless of who's right or wrong, Tibet will always have China and India (each with a billion people with nukes) as neighbors to depend upon and contend with.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:40 PM

Patience young padawan.. time will tell.
The Truth shall set you free...!!

Ordie

01-27-2010, 08:41 PM

Blue P

01-27-2010, 08:45 PM

Or perhaps China could give the Dalai Lama full authority over Tibet to see if he fails.

would american give arizona away to some local indian religious leader, a living god, for a few years, only to see if he will fail?

ordie, common sense please.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:46 PM

Or perhaps China could give the Dalai Lama full authority over Tibet to see if he fails.

What makes you think, he will fail....?? He will command a loving population, serene country and lots of tourism money and land rich in natural resources and water....

Ordie

01-27-2010, 08:50 PM

would american give arizona away to some local indian religious leader, a living god, for a few years, only to see if he will fail?

ordie, common sense please.

At least 1/4 of Arizona. It called the Navajo Nation. http://www.navajo.org/
You should check it out. Great sights.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:50 PM

would american give arizona away to some local indian religious leader, a living god, for a few years, only to see if he will fail?

ordie, common sense please.

Bad analogy. Overwhelming majority of AZ population are Americans and want to stay that way. Vs. Tibet, where majority of Tibetans are not Chinese and don't want any part of it....
Once you realize this, it get easier....

Confuse

01-27-2010, 08:52 PM

Try convincing 1.3 billion people.

I would put the relationship as a state within a state (during the ming/qing era) with the qing dynasty grabbing total control in the face of growing british controlled india and russia pushing for more colonial land. after the collapse of the last empire I wouls say that both sides were trying to consolidate power,the dalai lama interal rivalry with the pachen lama and having total control of tibet, while the republic of china was struggling with internal warlords and growing communist rivals.. in the 1949 retreat of the ROC to taiwan, the communists establish the PRC and try to establish full territorial control over all previous ROC areas (tibet and xinjiang are within this) ...

in the modern context without all the political issues from the PRC point of view it is a new government consolidating power..at some point the lama religious power structure headed by the dalai lama and the communist government needed to have a definition of their relationship (in a state versus state context as it was before), things started to go sour, then enter the CIA... the communist control of tibet isn't an occupation per se as thought of when you think of occupation, but it isn't supported by tibetans as long as the exiled religious government doesn't have a part in it's future

I would say that the communist government would be willing to restore a more domestic tibetan control as long as it didn't return to serf religious power control as it was before and as long as they knew that tibet was going to remain a part of china in such a situation. The change in tact of the chinese government is the acknowledge the fact that it needs to come to a real agreement with the exile government to really integrate tibetan society into the rest of the country, the other options are either independence (they are not going to give that) and ethnic "integration" a
la wild west indians or indigenous australians per "white australia" policy (which is something that the communist don't want either contrary to what many others think)

Ordie

01-27-2010, 08:52 PM

What makes you think, he will fail....?? He will command a loving population, serene country and lots of tourism money and land rich in natural resources and water....

At the end of the day, he still needs to fill the potholes, and be accountable for an economy, national security and general welfare.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 08:55 PM

At the end of the day, he still needs to fill the potholes, and be accountable for an economy, national security and general welfare.

But Ordie, thats true for any elected leader. If he fails to deliver, let his own people then elect someone else.. Its called democracy.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 09:00 PM

Bad analogy. Overwhelming majority of AZ population are Americans and want to stay that way. Vs. Tibet, where majority of Tibetans are not Chinese and don't want any part of it....
Once you realize this, it get easier....

tibetans are not chinese? which country do they belong to then?

please, my friend, tell me more and make it easier for me :D

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:03 PM

tibetans are not chinese? which country do they belong to then?

please, my friend, tell me more and make it easier for me :D

Before Chinese occupation in 50's, there was in Independent country called Tibet. So that makes them TiBETANS. Just try googling....

pg_ord

01-27-2010, 09:07 PM

Confuse

01-27-2010, 09:07 PM

Bad analogy. Overwhelming majority of AZ population are Americans and want to stay that way. Vs. Tibet, where majority of Tibetans are not Chinese and don't want any part of it....
Once you realize this, it get easier....

go back a hundred years and that will be different .... 200 years of destruction of your culture and being replace by the majority culture "white european colonists" along with some integration and the reality that the best you can get is some government grant money and scraps of land the government deems no much use as "reservations" , on top of that is most of your people not knowing their own culture and you have the current situation in north america and australia within it's native communities (sure in recent decades there have been attempts at cultural revival, but the damage is done) ... while the china/tibet situation can be seen in a similar light it isn't the same, while the 1951-1979 era was one of communist cultural domination and removal of all other culture, it isn't one targeted at tibetans as all chinese, han especially suffered in that era of cultural and social hell of the cultural revolution, after 1979 attempts were made at reversing the culture damage brought by the failed cultural revolution (which was really an internal power struggle within the communist party) .. the issue of tibetan are linked to the era of the cold war where communism = bad, anything else = good ..where the more fair would be theocracy and communist anarchy = bad, mixed with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:10 PM

And how would you feel, if next that same population/re-population occurs in your own backyard....I assume with your logic, you will fold and comply...?

Blue P

01-27-2010, 09:11 PM

Before Chinese occupation in 50's, there was in Independent country called Tibet. So that makes them TiBETANS. Just try googling....

i thought dalai lama claimed that he is not going to separate tibet from china?

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:16 PM

i thought dalai lama claimed that he is not going to separate tibet from china?

For start, He is looking for peaceful Autonomy...so his people can just catch their breath. He never claimed outright merger with China !

Blue P

01-27-2010, 09:22 PM

For start, He is looking for peaceful Autonomy...so his people can just catch their breath. He never claimed outright merger with China !

so he IS working on separating tibet from china?

dttk0009

01-27-2010, 09:22 PM

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 09:23 PM

i thought dalai lama claimed that he is not going to separate tibet from china?

He's trying to be realistic.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:29 PM

He's trying to be realistic.

I agree, he is trying to be realistic. But it is his country afterall. And given a chance, he would sure would want it totally independent.

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 09:29 PM

You're right. China needs a trail of tears. Then Tibet will be overwhelmingly Chinese.

While 18th and 19th Century US treatment of Native Americans was appallingly comparative to the Chinese treatment of Tibetans, the overwhelming majority of today's American Indians are loyal citizens, and while they have some legitimate grievances, know they are part of a great country.

...and, my ancestors survived the Trail of Tears.

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 09:31 PM

I agree, he is trying to be realistic. But it is his country afterall. And given a chance, he would sure would want it totally independent.

I agree. The Dalai Lama is smart enough to know that independence for Tibet would be just, but to advocate for that would probably not further his peoples' cause.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:32 PM

Sorry to hear, that your ancestors endured the suffering and the hardship. I mean it.

And you are implying, that over time, the same will be true for Tibetans as well....?

TheMiddlePath

01-27-2010, 09:34 PM

At least 1/4 of Arizona. It called the Navajo Nation. http://www.navajo.org/
You should check it out. Great sights.

I did and I found a 3rd world country.

dttk0009

01-27-2010, 09:35 PM

While 18th and 19th Century US treatment of Native Americans was appallingly comparative to the Chinese treatment of Tibetans, the overwhelming majority of today's American Indians are loyal citizens, and while they have some legitimate grievances, know they are part of a great country.

...and, my ancestors survived the Trail of Tears.
And I'm sure Tibetans will feel the same way in a hundred years or two.

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 09:39 PM

But Ordie, thats true for any elected leader. If he fails to deliver, let his own people then elect someone else.. Its called democracy.

No wonder Bush was elected twice...

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 09:40 PM

Hard to say if the Tibetans will feel the same way as today's Native Americans in the US feel.

.....if the PRC continues to treat the Dalai Lama as a pariah and ignore the Tibetans grievances, then they will continue to have reason to want independence.

The US government gives Native American tribes a lot of soverienty, and while life on the reservations is often bleak, they are pretty much in charge of their own affairs.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:41 PM

And I'm sure Tibetans will feel the same way in a hundred years or two.

Its easy for you say...sitting in Bankok and brood over plight of a nation....
And who are you to say this..What makes you think Tibetans will assimilate. Thats what CCP has trying to do for last 50+ years and yet Tibetans dispise them...

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 09:41 PM

And how would you feel, if next that same population/re-population occurs in your own backyard....I assume with your logic, you will fold and comply...?

If you are weak and defenseless, that's what's gonna happen. You'll never be able to change human nature. No one can. Look at the rest of the world if you need examples.

acosta

01-27-2010, 09:46 PM

China is destroying piece by piece a beautiful nation of peace seeking people. China deserves no peace or international recogntiions until this disgusting military occupation comes to an end.

That the west and the the USA are far too spineless to take this issue on (Tony Blair even allowed our protest in London to be heavily intimidated by the Metroplitan Police and amazingly a 'China is great' protest group sprang up all wearuing the same shoes and military trousers) - Once I saw the Chinese snipers killing Tibetans in the mountains as they sought refuge over a decade ago, I knew the west had lost its moral compass and spine.

well,dude.Tibet has been as part of china for 800 years. and 99% of international communities see tibet is part of china. so what are you ranting? for excise, to nice title of Britain's Got Talent?

when did you see chinese kills tibetans(by the way tibetans are also chinese) in the wild? was it in you dream? a fancy one?

in the end, china is not yugoslavia, it's a superpower. what do you think UK government can do, to revenge, for you fancy dream, did chinese snipers also kill brits in the wild too, as you've seen in that dream?

you are funny.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:46 PM

If you are weak and defenseless, that's what's gonna happen. You'll never be able to change human nature. No one can. Look at the rest of the world if you need examples.

So it makes rest of indifferent and heartless to the plight of Tibetans and for that matter anyone else...
If you believe in something, you stand for it. If you see someone weak getting abused, atleast in spirit, you try to protect the weak and speak up.
Is that also, not the Human Nature.....??

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 09:48 PM

well,dude.Tibet has been as part of china for 800 years. and 99% of international communities see tibet is part of china. so what are you ranting? for excise, to nice title of Britain's Got Talent?

when did you see chinese kills tibetans(by the way tibetans are also chinese) in the wild? was it in you dream? a fancy one?

in the end, china is not yugoslavia, it's a superpower. what do you think UK government can do, to revenge, for you fancy dream, did chinese snipers also kill brits in the wild too, as you've seen in that dream?

you are funny.

Don't feed the troll, people........

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 09:49 PM

Don't feed the troll, people........
Roger that !

dttk0009

01-27-2010, 09:49 PM

Its easy for you say...sitting in Bankok and brood over plight of a nation....
And who are you to say this..What makes you think Tibetans will assimilate. Thats what CCP has trying to do for last 50+ years and yet Tibetans dispise them...
Plight of a nation? What nation? China? Tibet isn't a country. It's a part of China. I'm not saying they will all assimilate, not all Native Americans have assimilated to this day, to claim otherwise would be foolish. I'm saying they need to be controlled and contained. They need to do exactly what American settlers did hundreds of years ago if they want any progress. Relocate the Tibetans to reservations or other parts of the country, disconnect them from their homeland, give them a weak form of autonomy and quash any uprisings and leaders. The DL will become a martyr and a future symbol of Tibetan resistance a couple of decades down the road, much like Geronimo. Throwing money at the province isn't going to do much but create more detest. This would be most logical to me, anyway.

Edit - I do sympathize with the plight of people, don't get me wrong, but Tibet is forever China's unless there is foreign military intervention, and I highly doubt there will ever be any. This is just the way colonialism and expansionism is, and no country is an exception. It never looks pretty.

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 09:50 PM

Its easy for you say...sitting in Bankok and brood over plight of a nation....
And who are you to say this..What makes you think Tibetans will assimilate. Thats what CCP has trying to do for last 50+ years and yet Tibetans dispise them...

What makes you more credible and reliable or wtv you wanna call it than him? I think he's said over and over again that he's German. I have been to several Canadian Indian reserves near my residence. Truth to be told, it's just as ancient as Tibet and the livings conditions often worse than Tibet.

The natives in Quebec often block highways on a regular basis to voice their living conditions concerns like territories being taken away by the provincial and federal government. The difference is that most Western media don't give a darn about them and other Canadians look down on them for not paying taxes and having many advantages such as having certain commodities cheaper. Basically, as long as there are still some of them left, it's all good. If powerful foreign countries start supporting them, who knows how far they will go to escalate things.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 09:53 PM

I agree, he is trying to be realistic. But it is his country afterall. And given a chance, he would sure would want it totally independent.

ok, so he is a separatist after all.

he has been trying to hide the agenda for decades. now you gave it away just like that?!!

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 09:53 PM

So it makes rest of indifferent and heartless to the plight of Tibetans and for that matter anyone else...
If you believe in something, you stand for it. If you see someone weak getting abused, atleast in spirit, you try to protect the weak and speak up.
Is that also, not the Human Nature.....??

Where were the greats minds like YOU thinking and doing from late 19th century and mid-20th century? Do you know how many MILLIONS of Chinese were slaughtered by countless foreign powers? Why do you think China is still so poor? The remaining population were left out to starve to death. Of course, you weren't in China during that time. My family was.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:01 PM

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:03 PM

Where were the greats minds like YOU thinking and doing from late 19th century and mid-20th century? Do you know how many MILLIONS of Chinese were slaughtered by countless foreign powers? Why do you think China is still so poor? The remaining population were left out to starve to death. Of course, you weren't in China during that time. My family was.

You just need to get over it and stop feeling sorry for yourself. MAN UP.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 10:09 PM

acosta

01-27-2010, 10:15 PM

dttk0009 - First check the history and then Geography. Tibet is not China, it never was and never will be Period.
!

are you a Martian?

walk out of your house and stop by a bookstore, buy a map, check where china is and find tibet within its border. if you don't believe publishers, go ask the government, if you still question obama or hilary clintion's legitimacy,go to New York, find where UN located, and ask Sectary in General, he will tell you: yes, son, i am so sorry, tibet is part of china.

if you are still not convinced, get a good sleep, dream what's in you mind, if you are lucky enough.

dttk0009

01-27-2010, 10:18 PM

dttk0009 - First check the history and then Geography. Tibet is not China, it never was and never will be Period.
CCP has tried to change that and has misreably failed. For Gods Sake, if they hold a fair election, they will loose and they know that, hence all
these distractions and insecurity.

I don't have to check history because these are current events and I'm well aware of the geographic locations of these areas. China controls Tibet through military and political occupation and thus is a part of China, and China is not the first country to act out in a colonial fashion and take territory though we may be a bit more sensetive towards the notion these days as the concept of land grabbing and colonialism is not as rampant and commonplace as it used to be. The fact that they have no say in the matter is obvious. No country, tribe, civilization that is being told that they now belong to a different nation and have to follow their rules now is going to sit there and say 'oh ok cool'. I do agree that China is handling the situation poorly, but Tibet is not going anywhere, and that's something you'll just have to get over and man up about. People will always stand up and fight for their homeland, but they don't always win, and not everyone fights. I realize you're passionate about the idea of freedom and 'good' and 'evil', which is cool, but this is just the way the cookie crumbles.

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 10:22 PM

Where were the greats minds like YOU thinking and doing from late 19th century and mid-20th century? Do you know how many MILLIONS of Chinese were slaughtered by countless foreign powers? Why do you think China is still so poor? The remaining population were left out to starve to death. Of course, you weren't in China during that time. My family was.

Interesting that you fail to mention Chairman Mao, and his contributions to China's suffering......

WCF.KAS

01-27-2010, 10:25 PM

when did you see chinese kills tibetans(by the way tibetans are also chinese) in the wild? was it in you dream? a fancy one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU

might be blocked for u however
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:26 PM

interesting view!!

now your democraticly elected president acknowledges that tibet is a part of china. and every other democraticly elected leader shares his opinion. what do you say? he fails? you fail? democracy fails?

You are correct. For now, leaders of the free world, do recognise Tibet as being part of China. Back in in cold war, supeficially, we did acknowledge
Soviet Union including all the Baltic States as part of Soviet Union. Today - Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia and today they all are Independent Countries.

And also, as a citizens of this Great Republic, we are entitled to hold our views, I express my opinions and try to be objective in my thinking and
be righteous in my deeds. I have lot to learn and a long way to go..most importantly, atleast I have a choice..I feel bad for one who don't (Tibetans)...

V/R
M

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 10:32 PM

Interesting that you fail to mention Chairman Mao, and his contributions to China's suffering......

Once again, you don't know much about Chinese history... Who created that tricky situation in the first place which allowed his ascension?

cn_habs

01-27-2010, 10:35 PM

You just need to get over it and stop feeling sorry for yourself. MAN UP.

I never felt sorry for myself. It was just a historic lesson.

You can to grow a pair or keep dreaming. Who cares if you wasted your time dreaming about this? :lol:

Blue P

01-27-2010, 10:36 PM

You are correct. For now, leaders of the free world, do recognise Tibet as being part of China. Back in in cold war, supeficially, we did acknowledge
Soviet Union including all the Baltic States as part of Soviet Union. Today - Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia and today they all are Independent Countries.

And also, as a citizens of this Great Republic, we are entitled to hold our views, I express my opinions and try to be objective in my thinking and
be righteous in my deeds. I have lot to learn and a long way to go..most importantly, atleast I have a choice..I feel bad for one who don't (Tibetans)...

V/R
M

so, is tibet a part of china?

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 10:38 PM

Once again, you don't know much about Chinese history... Who created that tricky situation in the first place which allowed his ascension?

Corruption and incompetence on the part of Chang Khai Shek's Nationalist government?

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:38 PM

Once again, you don't know much about Chinese history... Who created that tricky situation in the first place which allowed his ascension?
Since you do know the History, you need to ask the folks who followed him (Mcky Mao) in the Long March....

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 10:39 PM

so, is tibet a part of china?

No............

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 10:39 PM

Since you do know the History, you need to ask the folks who followed him (Mcky Mao) in the Long March....

Those he and his Red Guards didn't kill out of jealousy.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 10:42 PM

No............

why? are all the leaders from free countries wrong? is every single person apart from tibatan wrong? are all the maps wrong? is this world you are living in wrong?

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:42 PM

so, is tibet a part of china?

Past - Tibet was Independent Country.
Current - It is Officially regarded as part of China.
Future - I cannot Predict.....

deagle

01-27-2010, 10:43 PM

tibet is like a state within the country. we have 50 of them. tibet is like their texas.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 10:43 PM

Past - Tibet was Independent Country.
Current - It is Officially regarded as part of China.
Future - I cannot Predict.....

then it is a part of china? do we have an agreement? can we call it peace for now?

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 10:49 PM

why? are all the leaders from free countries wrong? is every single person apart from tibatan wrong? are all the maps wrong? is this world you are living in wrong?

So, if leaders of the free world would have simply given the green light to the Japanese to have annexed Manchuria, it would have been part of Japan?

In case you've been living under a rock, let me fill you in on something: Global politics are usually conducted with a high degree of cynicism and self interest. Helps to explain why the US Government chose to all but ignore Indonesia's policies in East Timor, the human rights abuses of many of our allies, and why so many WWII Japanese leaders, including the Emperor, escaped justice.

Just because elected politicians choose to kiss up to the Chinese Government doesn't make them right.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:49 PM

Please note- Currently - It is Officially regarded as part of China.
But like I said, In past, on various issues and countries, we had a certain Official position. And today reality and our Official Position states otherwise...

Remember - Nations don't have permanent freinds, only permenant interests...So in future...who know...!!!

V/R
M

Blue P

01-27-2010, 10:53 PM

So, if leaders of the free world would have simply given the green light to the Japanese to have annexed Manchuria, it would have been part of Japan?

In case you've been living under a rock, let me fill you in on something: Global politics are usually conducted with a high degree of cynicism and self interest. Helps to explain why the US Government chose to all but ignore Indonesia's policies in East Timor, the human rights abuses of many of our allies, and why so many WWII Japanese leaders, including the Emperor, escaped justice.

Just because elected politicians choose to kiss up to the Chinese Government doesn't make them right.

so you think the whole world had let you down? tibet had been sold out by every single country on this planet? and all tibetans are the victims of the rest the human population?

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 10:56 PM

tibet is like a state within the country. we have 50 of them. tibet is like their texas.
Tibet is not like their Texas. Heck its not even like their PR or Samoa or USVI.

Its a Country, taken over at a Gun Point. (Analogy - Its not a Matrimony, its a Rape).

Solvent

01-27-2010, 11:08 PM

Past - Tibet was Independent Country.
Current - It is Officially regarded as part of China.
Future - I cannot Predict.....

Future, I can predict for ya.

Tibet was, is and will be part of China period.

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:12 PM

so you think the whole world had let you down? tibet had been sold out by every single country on this planet? and all tibetans are the victims of the rest the human population?

No, they are the victims of China, just like China was the victim of foreign powers in the 19th and 20th Centuries.
Kinda like how an abused child grows up to ba an abuser.

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 11:17 PM

Future, I can predict for ya.

Tibet was, is and will be part of China period.

Solvent - Lets not get ahead of ourselves and return to Basics i.e. what got this whole thread started...
Here is current Dilema(no pun intended) CCP is facing and I quote..

"Beijing has come slowly to two painful realizations. First, the restive plateau it had treated for decades as a colony is central to its national plan: development and stability are "vital to ethnic unity, social stability, and national security," President Hu Jintao recently told his Politburo. And second, a corollary realization: China's government has been mishandling the issue of Tibet all along."

So please save your Psychic skills for future...when you might realluy need them ie., Taiwan...

SEMPER FI

Blue P

01-27-2010, 11:19 PM

No, they are the victims of China, just like China was the victim of foreign powers in the 19th and 20th Centuries.
Kinda like how an abused child grows up to ba an abuser.

have you considered the possibility that most tibetans eventually benifit from the region being a part of china, just like today's amercian indians?

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:21 PM

I hope they do ultimately benefit, but on principle, it should be their choice.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 11:24 PM

I hope they do ultimately benefit, but on principle, it should be their choice.

let's hope so.

it took the united states of america 200 years to show indians, that western influence did make their lives better.

shall we give ccp a little bit much time too?

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:34 PM

We were wrong then and China is wrong now.

And I'm not sure the US really did make their lives better. Some tribes became extinct, and the tribe of my ancestors, the Cherokee, were forcibly removed from their lands in North Carolina to Oklahoma.

Perhaps the people in Manchuria would be better off today if Japan had been allowed to keep that territory? After all, Japan has a higher standard of living than China.

Solvent

01-27-2010, 11:42 PM

Solvent - Lets not get ahead of ourselves and return to Basics i.e. what got this whole thread started...
Here is current Dilema(no pun intended) CCP is facing and I quote..

"Beijing has come slowly to two painful realizations. First, the restive plateau it had treated for decades as a colony is central to its national plan: development and stability are "vital to ethnic unity, social stability, and national security," President Hu Jintao recently told his Politburo. And second, a corollary realization: China's government has been mishandling the issue of Tibet all along."

So please save your Psychic skills for future...when you might realluy need them ie., Taiwan...

SEMPER FI

Too basic to talk, huh? I don't know who can avoid those basic ownership problems to talk other topic. You think there are too much talking being done here. Let me tell you, this kind of thread just like period, it comes back in certain time. I am the one should feel sick tired of it.

And it doesn't take psychic skills to predict . It is so obvious already.

Blue P

01-27-2010, 11:44 PM

We were wrong then and China is wrong now.

And I'm not sure the US really did make their lives better. Some tribes became extinct, and the tribe of my ancestors, the Cherokee, were forcibly removed from their lands in North Carolina to Oklahoma.

Perhaps the Chinese people in Manchuria would be better off today if Japan had been allowed to keep that territory? After all, Japan has a higher standard of living than China.

right or wrong, only time can tell. but for now, we all acknowledge that tibet is a part of china. and if it stays that way. let's wait and see. :)

oh, 60 years ago, could japanese have been as civilized as they are now, i might have well welcomed them to merge two countries. and i hope that eventually happens once china catches up with japan. 'asia union' maybe :p

Solvent

01-27-2010, 11:45 PM

We were wrong then and China is wrong now.

And I'm not sure the US really did make their lives better. Some tribes became extinct, and the tribe of my ancestors, the Cherokee, were forcibly removed from their lands in North Carolina to Oklahoma.

Perhaps the people in Manchuria would be better off today if Japan had been allowed to keep that territory? After all, Japan has a higher standard of living than China.

Japan to be allowed to keep the land? Can I say it's a wet dream?

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:47 PM

Okay, Blue P. Let's at least agree that we both hope for prosperity and happiness for the people of China and Tibet in the future.

As for the rest, we'll just "agree to disagree", as we're not likely to change each other's opinions. :)

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:48 PM

Japan to be allowed to keep the land? Can I say it's a wet dream?

It was a hypothetical analogy, to make a point.

hskywalker

01-27-2010, 11:54 PM

Peacefull assimilation of a land takes time.
To hurry it you have to do it the western way.

LaoSexMachine

01-27-2010, 11:56 PM

Bite us, you fvcktards~ Leave tibet? not after we nuke your country wherever that is~ Bring on the fight losers!

Coming from someone who lives in a western country. Fvctard.

Solvent

01-27-2010, 11:56 PM

It was a hypothetical analogy, to make a point.

OK, I got it. It's not a wet dream after all. Thanks

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:58 PM

OK, I got it. It's not a wet dream after all. Thanks

No problem! Despite my username, I'm not an apologist for the WWII-era Japanese.

gaijinsamurai

01-27-2010, 11:59 PM

Coming from someone who lives in a western country. Fvctard.

Heh, heh...tell him, Zeke!

Maitreya

01-27-2010, 11:59 PM

right or wrong, only time can tell. but for now, we all acknowledge that tibet is a part of china. and if it stays that way. let's wait and see. :)

oh, 60 years ago, could japanese have been as civilized as they are now, i might have well welcomed them to merge two countries. and i hope that eventually happens once china catches up with japan. 'asia union' maybe :p

Blue P - You need to quit say saying, " we agree, for now Tibet is part of China", and stop those smily faces..
This is serious topic and we talking about peoples lives here..I am never going to agree that China has
Any Legal or otherwise any claim on Tibet. Might Certainly does not makes it right, so please stop this
Passive agressive stuff. You have fooled some, but cannot fool me and certainly not the Millions of
Tibetans...

As far as Asian Union is concerned, lets first there be Free & Honest Democratic Elections In
Red China first and then we talk, untill then all this talk is Horse Sh_t.

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:04 AM

And i really wanna say: You americans who have nothing else to do would be better pick a fight with someone smaller in size than iraq, since your soldiers are dying for nothing (where's the cheap oil?)

Versus picking a fight with Tibet to get land? Where's the intergration? Protecting China's pride from while not living in China. You remind me kids who talk about pussy but never had pussy.

plato

01-28-2010, 12:04 AM

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 12:05 AM

Troll has been reported......

Maitreya

01-28-2010, 12:05 AM

Peacefull assimilation of a land takes time.
To hurry it you have to do it the western way.

Just like the WOC, managed to stop the Mongol heards..And the new firewall will keep people within opressed. Time will certainly tell....

junglejim

01-28-2010, 12:07 AM

That's one pissed off kiwi.

scrybe

01-28-2010, 12:07 AM

I wish that you can be more pissed off than ever about our policies in Tibet. You're serious, bs~~ You are talking unrealistic garbage~ Where did you do in 2008 when it was kind of 'the best mo for Free tibet losers'. Now its 2010, too bad, it's late. Get lost and get over with it. Recession's not yet totally over, take care of your banking savings first.

I like you. We should be e-friends. What's your name?

Rilence

01-28-2010, 12:07 AM

What? OK for our soldiers to die not yours. **** off,~ you guys are just jealous that the US supremacy is no longer THAAAAT overwhelming~ pfft, sif i give a ****~
Someone woke up on the wong side of the bed today.

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:08 AM

What? OK for our soldiers to die not yours. **** off,~ you guys are just jealous that the US supremacy is no longer THAAAAT overwhelming~ pfft, sif i give a ****~

It's overwhelming enough for the China(which you don't live in) to not to try any funny business with Taiwan.

SBL

01-28-2010, 12:09 AM

I like you. We should be e-friends. What's your name?
Yankee dog! You die now!

Blue P

01-28-2010, 12:10 AM

Blue P - You need to quit say saying, " we agree, for now Tibet is part of China", and stop those smily faces..
This is serious topic and we talking about peoples lives here..I am never going to agree that China has
Any Legal or otherwise any claim on Tibet. Might Certainly does not makes it right, so please stop this
Passive agressive stuff. You have fooled some, but cannot fool me and certainly not the Millions of
Tibetans...

As far as Asian Union is concerned, lets first there be Free & Honest Democratic Elections In
Red China first and then we talk, untill then all this talk is Horse Sh_t.

tell me somehing first. when you are saying 'we', who are you representing, amercian or tibetans? which one is it?

and yes, mighty doesn't make anything right. but getting rid off theocracy, free people from slavery, eliminating illiteracy, improve the quality of lives, these all make things right.

scrybe

01-28-2010, 12:10 AM

Dammit Hollis! I was just getting started!

digrar

01-28-2010, 12:13 AM

That angry little expat has been on borrowed time for a while now.

Maitreya

01-28-2010, 12:14 AM

It's overwhelming enough for the China(which you don't live in) to not to try any funny business with Taiwan.

Way to go Zeke ! All his talk of Nuke this & Nuke that, we have had nof of him...He is done..He needs to go back to his forum share his Blue Wet Dreams..

Maitreya

01-28-2010, 12:20 AM

tell me somehing first. when you are saying 'we', who are you representing, amercian or tibetans? which one is it?

and yes, mighty doesn't make anything right. but getting rid off theocracy, free people from slavery, eliminating illiteracy, improve the quality of lives, these all make things right.

American as an Apple Pie - A - USA. I m not from Tibet, Just as U r not an American. Get It, now get back to Baidu and start seaching...for AU

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 12:22 AM

We were wrong then and China is wrong now.

And I'm not sure the US really did make their lives better. Some tribes became extinct, and the tribe of my ancestors, the Cherokee, were forcibly removed from their lands in North Carolina to Oklahoma..

Unlike the native Americans who were subjected genocide, Tibeten people, culture and language is actually prospering.

Perhaps the people in Manchuria would be better off today if Japan had been allowed to keep that territory? After all, Japan has a higher standard of living than China.

Japan actually moved thousands of poor Japanese peasants from Japan to Manchuria and after they lost the war abandoned them and asked them to commit suicide.
Despite what the Japanese did to China during the war, thousands of Japanese orphans that were abandon were raised by the local Chinese.
Truely very honorable of the Chinese.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 12:23 AM

I'm curious middle path, how much do they pay you to be their dog?

Blue P

01-28-2010, 12:26 AM

American as an Apple Pie - A - USA. I m not from Tibet, Just as U r not an American. Get It, now get back to Baidu and start seaching...for AU

then it's not your business, is it? au or not, it's not in amercia? and, if you look out from the window, you will find the big bosses of us and china have been talking all the time. so you, as an individual, want to talk ro not, changes nothing i'm afraid.

and since you are not even tibetan, how do you know what the majority of tibetans want? or do you think a theocracy figure speak for any body?

Solvent

01-28-2010, 12:26 AM

I'm curious middle path, how much do they pay you to be their dog?

What if there is nothing paid, will you be frustrated?

BTW, call other people dog is not nice.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 12:27 AM

Thanks for pointing out the already obvious, I wouldn't be upset either.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 12:29 AM

Thanks for pointing out the already obvious, I wouldn't be upset either.

You welcome

junglejim

01-28-2010, 12:31 AM

I'm curious middle path, how much do they pay you to be their dog?

See that was uncalled for. If somebody from the west defends his country right or wrong, people might ridicule but would just call them Patriot. But if its the chinese, they are brainwashed paid government dogs. Did some of you ever think that for these people CHICOM is the best thing that ever happened for them since the middle kingdoms?

- China, PM me for my bank account details.

Maitreya

01-28-2010, 12:34 AM

then it's not your business, is it? au or not, it's not in amercia? and, if you look out from the window, you will find the big bosses of us and china have been talking all the time. so you, as an individual, want to talk ro not, changes nothing i'm afraid.

and since you are not even tibetan, how do you know what the majority of tibetans want? or do you think a theocracy figure speak for any body?

Looks like you are still suffering from the Opium smoked many moons ago. Just face the reality and have an open elections first in mainland, then Tibet and see for yourself. I am afraid, you won't like the reality....

Sorry P, you know, you are wrong, but you try to hide behind your assumed intellect, and your relatively new found wealth and believe your own visions of Grandeur..

Have a heart and feel sorry for your countrymen and the people who are oppressed..

V/R
M

Ritual

01-28-2010, 12:40 AM

See that was uncalled for. If somebody from the west defends his country right or wrong, people might ridicule but would just call them Patriot. But if its the chinese, they are brainwashed paid government dogs. Did some of you ever think that for these people CHICOM is the best thing that ever happened for them since the middle kingdoms?

- China, PM me for my bank account details.

It's not even that, I've seen many opinions from our Chinese members that I totally agree with. It just seems to me that he spews the party line regardless of anything else. It's not as if I agree with everything the United States does and no, the only thing beneficial out of the "CHICOM" that would be of merit is that an autocrat said "To Get Rich is Glorious". Even then it's worry some as to how the people in the country-side and urban poor live.

Tibet is happening now, the majority of the transgressions that happened to the Native American peoples happened before almost all of us were born. Aside from AIM, and issues that now resound throughout their community such as substance abuse.

I'm not saying it's ok that it ever happened because it is not, but it's unacceptable to point your fingers at someone elses mistakes and say "It's ok for me to do wrong as well."

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 12:40 AM

Solvent

01-28-2010, 12:41 AM

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 12:41 AM

Japan actually moved thousands of poor Japanese peasants from Japan to Manchuria and after they lost the war abandoned them and asked them to commit suicide.
Despite what the Japanese did to China during the war, thousands of Japanese orphans that were abandon were raised by the local Chinese.
Truely very honorable of the Chinese.

Good of the Chinese. I have also read of Japanese soldiers having been treated well by their Chinese captors upon their surrender in 1945.

Some Native Americans are actually prospering too.

Especially those with casinos. :)

Ritual

01-28-2010, 12:42 AM

Oh how scary, multi party systems.!

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 12:43 AM

Looks like you are still suffering from the Opium smoked many moons ago. Just face the reality and have an open elections first in mainland, then Tibet and see for yourself. I am afraid, you won't like the reality....

Sorry P, you know, you are wrong, but you try to hide behind your assumed intellect, and your relatively new found wealth and believe your own visions of Grandeur..

Have a heart and feel sorry for your countrymen and the people who are oppressed..

V/R
M

You still avoided the question of Tibetan theocracy prior to 1949. At least the Chinese have learnt from the Opium War.

If your mentality towards the Chinese is "get over it already", shouldn't Tibetans be told the same thing? This is something that anyone can deduct from your statement. At least another poster was honest enough to say that "they were wrong." You always try your best to make it sound like the arrogant "I can do it while you can't" type of guy.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 12:45 AM

I'm curious middle path, how much do they pay you to be their dog?

The truth is painful. Isnt it ?

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:45 AM

You still avoided the question of Tibetan theocracy prior to 1949. At least the Chinese have learnt from the Opium War.
.

So it was a good thing for China to invade and move a bunch of Hans into Tibetan land?

Ritual

01-28-2010, 12:46 AM

The truth is painful. Isnt it ?

Ok so 1 yuan a post it seems.

junglejim

01-28-2010, 12:46 AM

It's not even that, I've seen many opinions from our Chinese members that I totally agree with. It just seems to me that he spews the party line regardless of anything else. It's not as if I agree with everything the United States does and no, the only thing beneficial out of the "CHICOM" that would be of merit is that an autocrat said "To Get Rich is Glorious". Even then it's worry some as to how the people in the country-side and urban poor live.

Tibet is happening now, the majority of the transgressions that happened to the Native American peoples happened before almost all of us were born. Aside from AIM, and issues that now resound throughout their community such as substance abuse.

I'm not saying it's ok that it ever happened because it is not, but it's unacceptable to point your fingers at someone elses mistakes and say "It's ok for me to do wrong as well."

I wasnt in disagreement with your views. Just calling them paid dogs or government agents because of their views for me was just uncalled for. If you look into their past there is hardly any bright lights for them to compare to, so for them what they have today is the best. They get defensive because all we do is criticize... so they feel like they have to defend everything. Had they been a western nation, we would have called these guys patriotic, but since they are Chinese we degrade them.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 12:48 AM

Oh how scary, multi party systems.!

Ha ha ha. You think you have multiple choices ? You actually only have two.

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:49 AM

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:50 AM

Ha ha ha. You think you have multiple choices ? You actually only have two.

You don't know about the American electoral system then.

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 12:51 AM

Ha ha ha. You think you have multiple choices ? You actually only have two.

"democracy" can be overrated at times.

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 12:52 AM

So it was a good thing for China to invade and move a bunch of Hans into Tibetan land?

I personally don't agree with all the policies from the CCP but how are Tibetans worse off when medical care was nonexistent for 99% of the Tibetans? Guess what? The Dalai Lamas and the clique had this privilege.Their life expectancy was a mere 38 years old and the number of local Tibetan population has at least doubled if not trippled in 51 years of Chinese occupancy? What was the native Americans' population prior to the arrival of the europpeans?

There's a National Geographic documentary that describes Tibet at the Germans' arrival back during the Tibetan theocratic period. Everything in life is meaningless if the person isn't even alive to enjoy it.

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 12:53 AM

I agree to a certain extent but running your suck while living and benefiting from a country you despise is retarded.

You ran out of arguments so you started calling people retards? How civilised! :lol:

junglejim

01-28-2010, 12:55 AM

I agree to a certain extent but running your suck while living and benefiting from a country you despise is retarded.

Agree, that's why that confused kiwi had to be banned. But calling someone "paid government dog" for defending his country was just wrong for me.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 12:56 AM

I wasnt in disagreement with your views. Just calling them paid dogs or government agents because of their views for me was just uncalled for. If you look into their past there is hardly any bright lights or them to compare to, so for them what they have today is the best for them. They get defensive because all we do is criticize... so they feel like they have to defend everything. Had they been a western nation, we would have called these guys patriotic, but since they are Chinese we degrade them.

Looks like you have some deep thoughts. But one thing I need to point out is that when we look back, which we always do, we are not only looking at the past couple hundred years. We actually have quite a few bright spots. And the recent dark pass doesn't make us defensive. It only make us tolerate current situation more. Defensiveness is due to groundless criticize( at least we think it is.)

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:56 AM

I personally don't agree with all the policies from the CCP but how are Tibetans worse off when medical care was nonexistent for 99% of the Tibetans? Their life expectancy was a mere 38 years old and the number of local Tibetan population has at least doubled if not trippled in 51 years of Chinese occupancy? What was the native Americans' population prior to the arrival of the europpeans. Everything in life is meaningless if the person isn't even alife to enjoy it.

"enjoy life" is different from one to another. Life expectancy in Early America wasn't bueno for the Colonialist and Natives.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 12:57 AM

You don't know about the American electoral system then.

I know enough that election do not elect the most competent people. Chances are You end up electing the best talker and best actor or even the best lier.

That is why half the US congressman's proffessions are lawyers.

Mavet

01-28-2010, 12:58 AM

To my compatriots:

Before I say something, bear in mind that there's no need to be annoyed with those westerners. Because on the issue of Tibet, most of the cards are in our hand. And the cards they hold are mostly ineffective and at best just some public denouncement which will, from a strategic point of view, changes nothing on the ground.

A great Chinese book that our ancestor had written, called 'The 36 Stratagems' is one of our guides in dealing with international politics. And this book is enough for us to deal with Dalai Lama and we can surely outwit him. Because those who really studies international politics are people who are much less emotional than those in this forum. Once I was trying to help my friend (who's a Ph.D student at Fudan University) who was writing a paper in English on the strategic effects on the US war in Afghanistan and Iraq, she was, you know, totally cool, not emotional, and at that time, US was kind of in trouble. Her point is clear, and it's from the 36 Stratagems: Watch the fires burning across the river. Because it's a fait accompli that the Americans are in those regions, we have to adopt to get the best of it so that NO terrorism threat will be posed at us because of their blunder, intentional or unintentional, and the bottom line is that the US will not let the region become a centre of terrorism. And in the mean time, the US, due to the prisoner torturing and other things they have committed, damaged them profoundly and this is de facto "Kill with a borrowed knife." in our facour . And, partly its correct, we have to realise the existance of the US in the region more than ever. But we can certainly get something out of it. I'll keep this short, so this is not something that angry people can do, no need to cheer for their death, nor should we be terribly be sad. Because one need lots of assessment to calculate the political impact rather than pouring insults. And one thing is clear: US is weakened and of course they are still the No. 1 in the world. But the fresh memories of the bloody wars will linger in their mind for some years before they forget it. And till now, our boarder is still pretty safe at the moment. Therefore, our most basic interests are at least guaranteed. We should be fairly happy about it.

The issue of Tibet is clear: there is no chance for them to become independent. Because we are not USSR whose Russian population is merely over 50%, nor Austro-Hungarian Empire whose German and Hungarian nationals are just over 40%. And Dalai Lama himself is the biggest card. On domestic affairs in Tibet, there is a dilemma that Tibetans cannot earn money as fast as others and to tell them to learn to become a businessman, some will say we are 'sinicise' them (in reality we know that our dressing code, living style is more western than Chinese). But I personally think it's a good thing for those living in Tibet to learn some Tibetan language and culture which is not only something of a goodwill but also good for business as that we all know not to sell pork or (probably) T-Shirt with a portrait of Bush to Muslims. But on the issue of Dalai Lama, the Qing Dynasty was further weakened intentionally by the British on Tibet and after 1911, those in Tibet used our weakness to play games with us and that will be totally unacceptable for us since we have lost territories comparing the territory of Qing and PRC. So in order to not to loose territory again, we have to use any method to resist those in exile to come back again, because then we will become Belgium and post-Franco Spain AT BEST. But it should be done with strategy, like we should absolutely keep those meetings with Dalai Lama's representitives, first is to take some initiatives to block the mouths of other countries, and by losing something small we actually gain something more than that. In short, at long as we keep the basic strategic principle, he can't win.

And winners don't always need to explain and argue. We can keep our smile in front of their won't-help-nothing criticism and let them speak. Because international politics is more like accounting than blah-blah-blah: you calculate your gains and trend and analysis it and make predictions and improvements.

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 12:58 AM

I know enough that election do not elect the most competent people. Chances are You end up electing the best talker and best actor or even the best lier.

Like a one party system that elects within? And 'Communist" party leaders are millionaires

Solvent

01-28-2010, 12:59 AM

You don't know about the American electoral system then.

Are you saying independent? Is there any president from independent?

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 12:59 AM

I can't disagree with you there, Middle Path.

The 2004 election between Kerry and Bush Jr, was especially nauseating.....

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 01:01 AM

Are you saying independent? Is there any president from independent?

We have primaries, in which various candidates compete for their party's nomination. And yeah, only the Republicans and Democrats are taken very seriously.......

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 01:01 AM

You ran out of arguments so you started calling people retards? How civilised! :lol:

You protecting China while enjoying the freedom of the west too. How patriotic.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:01 AM

Ha ha ha. You think you have multiple choices ? You actually only have two.

Champ, I really think you need to look at your English language dictionary about "multiple".

Main Entry: 1mul·ti·ple
****unciation: \ˈməl-tə-pəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Latin multiplex, from multi- + -plex -fold — more at -fold (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/-fold)
Date: 1647
1 : consisting of, including, or involving more than one

As in "two" or more.

acosta

01-28-2010, 01:02 AM

this post is worse than any of its previous version.

it's a shame to "second thoughts about tibet", the title.

full of prejudice, lack of logic and objective judgement,attacking fine members of the forum, spreading hatrad, blah,....

junglejim

01-28-2010, 01:02 AM

Looks like you have some deep thoughts. But one thing I need to point out is that when we look back, which we always do, we are not only looking at the past couple hundred years. We actually have quite a few bright spots. And the recent dark pass doesn't make us defensive. It only make us tolerate current situation more. Defensiveness is due to groundless criticize( at least we think it is.)

True but one thing I've noticed though is if a country experiences bright spots at least within this century, they tend to be far more confident in their abilities and are much less affected by criticism. Longer than that and people are just clinging to a dream and it gets destructive.

LaoSexMachine

01-28-2010, 01:03 AM

Are you saying independent? Is there any president from independent?

Google is your friend.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:04 AM

Wait, do they still have Google there after all the hacking? I haven't checked up on that in a few days.

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 01:05 AM

To our compatriots:

Before I say something, bear in mind that there's no need to be annoyed with those westerners. Because on the issue of Tibet, most of the cards are in our hand. And the cards they hold are mostly ineffective and at best just some public denouncement which will, from a strategic point of view, changes nothing on the ground.

A great Chinese book that our ancestor had written, called 'The 36 Stratagems' is one of our guides in dealing with international politics. And this book is enough for us to deal with Dalai Lama and we can surely outwit him. Because those who really studies international politics are people who are much less emotional than those in this forum. Once I was trying to help my friend (who's a Ph.D student at Fudan University) who was writing a paper in English on the strategic effects on the US war in Afghanistan and Iraq, she was, you know, totally cool, not emotional, and at that time, US was kind of in trouble. Her point is clear, and it's from the 36 Stratagems: Watch the fires burning across the river. Because it's a fait accompli that the Americans are in those regions, we have to adopt to get the best of it so that NO terrorism threat will be posed at us because of their blunder, intentional or unintentional, and the bottom line is that the US will not let the region become a centre of terrorism. And in the mean time, the US, due to the prisoner torturing and other things they have committed, damaged them profoundly and this is de facto "Kill with a borrowed knife." in our facour . And, partly its correct, we have to realise the existance of the US in the region more than ever. But we can certainly get something out of it. I'll keep this short, so this is not something that angry people can do, no need to cheer for their death, nor should we be terribly be sad. Because one need lots of assessment to calculate the political impact rather than pouring insults. And one thing is clear: US is weakened and of course they are still the No. 1 in the world. But the fresh memories of the bloody wars will linger in their mind for some years before they forget it. And till now, our boarder is still pretty safe at the moment. Therefore, our most basic interests are at least guaranteed. We should be fairly happy about it.

The issue of Tibet is clear: there is no chance for them to become independent. Because we are not USSR whose Russian population is merely over 50%, nor Austro-Hungarian Empire whose German and Hungarian nationals are just over 40%. And Dalai Lama himself is the biggest card. On domestic affairs in Tibet, there is a dilemma that Tibetans cannot earn money as fast as others and to tell them to learn to become a businessman, some will say we are 'sinicise' them (in reality we know that our dressing code, living style is more western than Chinese). But I personally think it's a good thing for those living in Tibet to learn some Tibetan language and culture which is not only something of a goodwill but also good for business as that we all know not to sell pork or (probably) T-Shirt with a portrait of Bush to Muslims. But on the issue of Dalai Lama, the Qing Dynasty was further weakened intentionally by the British on Tibet and after 1911, those in Tibet used our weakness to play games with us and that will be totally unacceptable for us since we have lost territories comparing the territory of Qing and PRC. So in order to not to loose territory again, we have to use any method to resist those in exile to come back again, because then we will become Belgium and post-Franco Spain AT BEST. But it should be done with strategy, like we should absolutely keep those meetings with Dalai Lama's representitives, first is to take some initiatives to block the mouths of other countries, and by losing something small we actually gain something more than that. In short, at long as we keep the basic strategic principle, he can't win.

And winners don't always need to explain and argue.

Interesting, well-thought post.

But, if the Dalai Lama is adamant about not wanting independence for Tibet, what does China have to lose by negotiating with him? I would think (as a Westerner) that doing so would display confidence in your position, especially if you are willing to let them have a little more autonomy in order to put the issue further behind you.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:05 AM

You protecting China while enjoying the freedom of the west too. How patriotic.

There is one saying. After seeing the true color of western countries, many Chinese overseas love China even more.

gaijinsamurai

01-28-2010, 01:08 AM

There is one saying. After seeing the true color of western countries, many Chinese overseas love China even more.

Kinda like how I felt when I lived in South Korea.

plato

01-28-2010, 01:08 AM

There is one saying. After seeing the true color of western countries, many Chinese overseas love China even more.

How much love? Enough to go back to China and live there? Flee the "true color of western countries"? Do you "Solvent" have enough love for China to leave where ever you are, and move back to China?

junglejim

01-28-2010, 01:09 AM

There is one saying. After seeing the true color of western countries, many Chinese overseas love China even more.

Dont pin everything on that saying, its not just a Chinese Phenomenon. A lot for countries who have a strong culture of immigration for a better life, gets to experience the west and realize that its not all that perfect. So the improvement in their love of their homeland, comes from the feeling of "well it wasnt so bad after all back home" or "yeah we can do that back home." Rather than the "OMFG our HOMELAND WAS BETTER WE MADE A MISTAKE." In the west its called "grass is always greener"

dttk0009

01-28-2010, 01:13 AM

It's not even that, I've seen many opinions from our Chinese members that I totally agree with. It just seems to me that he spews the party line regardless of anything else. It's not as if I agree with everything the United States does and no, the only thing beneficial out of the "CHICOM" that would be of merit is that an autocrat said "To Get Rich is Glorious". Even then it's worry some as to how the people in the country-side and urban poor live.

Tibet is happening now, the majority of the transgressions that happened to the Native American peoples happened before almost all of us were born. Aside from AIM, and issues that now resound throughout their community such as substance abuse.

I'm not saying it's ok that it ever happened because it is not, but it's unacceptable to point your fingers at someone elses mistakes and say "It's ok for me to do wrong as well."

No, but it's also hypocritical when you reap the benefits of similar past oppressions and point your finger at China and say 'Monster!'. In fact, it's hypocritical on a stupid level. And you should be ok with that it happened, because America is where it is today because it fought with natives to acquire their land and natural resources. It's simply nation building, that's all. Besides, the media always chooses to gracefully omit every good thing China has ever accomplished in Tibet, naturally, yet everyone here bitches the second the painfully predictable anti-American article is published. The two have more in common than you think.

Blue P

01-28-2010, 01:17 AM

No, but it's also hypocritical when you reap the benefits of similar past oppressions and point your finger at China and say 'Monster!'. In fact, it's hypocritical on a stupid level. And you should be ok with that it happened, because America is where it is today because it fought with natives to acquire their land and natural resources. It's simply nation building, that's all. Besides, the media always chooses to gracefully omit every good thing China has ever accomplished in Tibet, naturally, yet everyone here bitches the second the painfully predictable anti-American article is published. The two have more in common than you think.

wasting your time here. he is always racism against chinese people. just put him into the blacklist and let it be peace.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:19 AM

No, we should not be ok that it happened. To call it "simply nation building" is horribly stupid, what do you call other genocides then? Nation building?

junglejim

01-28-2010, 01:20 AM

wasting your time here. he is always racism against chinese people. just put him into the blacklist and let it be peace.

why so? maybe by talking to that person you might change his views? or maybe you can learn something from him. Unless your main purpose of enterring a forum is to shout propaganda, one should embrace the chance for discourse, dont you think?

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:20 AM

I like the idea they have an official forum blacklist, I find that funny.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:21 AM

junglejim

01-28-2010, 01:21 AM

I like the idea they have an official forum blacklist, I find that funny.

Which totally defeats the purpose of a "FORUM" :)

plato

01-28-2010, 01:22 AM

Yes, I of course are heading back.

good for you! I am happy to see you going after your true love. When do you plan to go back? In a year? two, or three?

Mavet

01-28-2010, 01:23 AM

Interesting, well-thought post.

But, if the Dalai Lama is adamant about not wanting independence for Tibet, what does China have to lose by negotiating with him? I would think (as a Westerner) that doing so would display confidence in your position, especially if you are willing to let them have a little more autonomy in order to put the issue further behind you.

Because we don't want to give him false hope, day-dream or something to play with. Trust me, I think Mao (who i despise so much) blew it when he introduced radical socialism stuff in Tibet and made the current situation far more complicated than what we would want.

And playing political games will obviously have plenty of deception. You know, politics in the end is to gain interests for the group you represent, and deceptions are used very very often in day-to-day biz in international politics. To us, we don't trust him and we can't afford that. As I said, trying to make China unified like nowadays Belgium or Spain is utmost unacceptable for us. And if we reach a deal with DL under his proposal, those in exile will come back to stir troubles under the name of real autonomy: We won't allow that to happen and the best to be done to them is by losing our 'face' which costs us most 0 cent per gram to talk to his representatives but reach no deal. And again, the govt in Tibet should realise that the Tibetans aren't good at commerce and some incentives should be given so that those non-Tibetans will know more about their culture and language while teach them how to make money to live well and ban those job ads which say things like Tibetans are 10 yuan per hour and the Han and Muslims are 20 yuan per hour for good.

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 01:24 AM

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:24 AM

Dont pin everything on that saying, its not just a Chinese Phenomenon. A lot for countries who have a strong culture of immigration for a better life, gets to experience the west and realize that its not all that perfect. So the improvement in their love of their homeland, comes from the feeling of "well it wasnt so bad after all back home" or "yeah we can do that back home." Rather than the "OMFG our HOMELAND WAS BETTER WE MADE A MISTAKE." In the west its called "grass is always greener"

I actually mean the saying among Chinese forums. Other people may feel the same too.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:25 AM

good for you! I am happy to see you going after your true love. When do you plan to go back? In a year? two, or three?

You are not that close to know, sorry.

magantosh

01-28-2010, 01:25 AM

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 01:26 AM

Like a one party system that elects within? And 'Communist" party leaders are millionaires

One party democracy versus two party democrary. Whats the differences. And Bush the oilman made 11billions for his oil company. Yes the truth is painful.

plato

01-28-2010, 01:26 AM

You are not that close to know, sorry.

No hard feelings! I don't need to know. But, one thing is clear. You are not in China now.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:27 AM

No hard feelings! I don't need to know.

So why bother ask?

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:27 AM

IBTL.

This thread is going places.

Have we all had enough fun derailing yet? Back on topic, the rest of this should move to PM's if at all.

dttk0009

01-28-2010, 01:29 AM

No, we should not be ok that it happened. To call it "simply nation building" is horribly stupid, what do you call other genocides then? Nation building?
Yes. The ethnic cleansing of the native Americans was not a genocide in my opinion though (small isolated cases that were even at the time looked at with disdain), but you should definitely be ok with it considering what has been accomplished as a result. Most of the natives died as a result of disease with pockets of armed resistance. Every, ok most nations are where they are today because they fought for their land and kicked out/killed/assimilated the native/previous inhabitants. It's a power struggle that has been going on ever since borders were declared.

Ritual

01-28-2010, 01:30 AM

I'm not going to do that seeing as my great-grandmother was Apache, thanks though for the thought.

Solvent

01-28-2010, 01:30 AM

IBTL.

This thread is going places.

Have we all had enough fun derailing yet? Back on topic, the rest of this should move to PM's if at all.

It's late now, good night everybody.

Mavet

01-28-2010, 01:31 AM

It's not the same blood at all that flows in their vein hence there will always be the desire to separate. We didn't have to worry about this specific problem with HK and Macau who mostly depend on the mainland for basic supplies. If the CCP actually lets the Dalai Lama to rule Tibet as a special administrative region, their authority will be questioned and separatist movements in Xinjiang and Taiwan will see this as the light at the end of the tunnel. If all of the above happens, the CCP will lose his grip and won't hold much longer. Now this is disastrous for everyone in China who will be in some turmoil.

If China becomes weak again b/c of whatever reason, we will lose Tibet, Xinjing and Taiwan. and end up with 40% of its current terrority. The geopolitical consequences might cause WW3.

I agree, and unlike google which is CCP vs others, and corruption which is Chinese vs CCP. Tibetan issue is dictated by people. If china becomes totally free, I believe we will have retards like Zhirinovsky from Russia who will earn cheap votes on issues like this rather than other more serious ones. Tibetan issue is like a circus, no matter how 'fancy' new stuns are created, those playing it have no alternative endings but one. So humans and animals playing it will in the end reach the preordained results.

junglejim

01-28-2010, 01:31 AM

No, but it's also hypocritical when you reap the benefits of similar past oppressions and point your finger at China and say 'Monster!'. In fact, it's hypocritical on a stupid level. And you should be ok with that it happened, because America is where it is today because it fought with natives to acquire their land and natural resources. It's simply nation building, that's all. Besides, the media always chooses to gracefully omit every good thing China has ever accomplished in Tibet, naturally, yet everyone here bitches the second the painfully predictable anti-American article is published. The two have more in common than you think.

But isnt it a Chinese proverb that mentions "an intellgent man learns from other peoples mistakes?" Also, what the US did happened in the past, the world has changed. What was acceptable then would not be acceptable now. So banking your rights on mistakes of other countries in the past is the best way to maintain pariah status on the world stage.

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 01:33 AM

How much love? Enough to go back to China and live there? Flee the "true color of western countries"? Do you "Solvent" have enough love for China to leave where ever you are, and move back to China?

All I did back in my days in China that you might qualify as patriotic was to sing the national anthem. There was really nothing else as I was busy doing other things. Whether you believe me or not I don't give a darn.

I didn't realize how poor of an image that we had until I came here. Of course, you can blame the type of government but most of the stuff that the Western media write about China is pure bs and only presents one side of the medal.

However, due to the nature of MP.net and its small sample size of posters, people here tend to be more ballistic than the average Joe who doesn't really care at all that much when it comes to China.

plato

01-28-2010, 01:36 AM

So why bother ask?

Just wanted to see how much love you have for China, that is all. It is ok, i don't need to know.

I like to share a short chat I had with a Tibetan dentistry student in China last summer. He spoke Chinese and when I started to talk about Dalai Lama he looked around first to check if any Han Chinese were around. Then he just started to state these random facts about Dalai Lama without directly praising him. Things like how Dalai Lama can speak many languages, he visited many countries, have read many books, etc...Just random things about Dalai Lama. I really felt sorry for him. He dared not to directly praise Dalai Lama even when there were no Han Chinese near him. Sad!

plato

01-28-2010, 01:40 AM

All I did back in my days in China that you might qualify as patriotic was to sing the national anthem. There was really nothing else as I was busy doing other things. Whether you believe me or not I don't give a darn.

I didn't realize how poor of an image that we had until I came here. Of course, you can blame the type of government but most of the stuff that the Western media write about China is pure bs and only presents one side of the medal.

However, due to the nature of MP.net and its small sample size of posters, people here tend to be more ballistic then the average Joe who doesn't really care at all that much when it comes to China.

Well, I don't feel sorry for you at all! Why? Because I have been in the Chinese forums for too long! I have been monitoring the Chinese media for too long! Our Western media bias toward China is NOTHING compared to China's. MP.net is 1000% better than ANY of the Chinese forums I have been to. Don't feel sorry for you at all! Sorry! That is my true feeling!

dttk0009

01-28-2010, 01:45 AM

I'm not going to do that seeing as my great-grandmother was Apache, thanks though for the thought.
Not going to do what? Be ok with it? I can't help you then. A good portion of the nation is and you're a citizen of the most powerful nation on the planet. Can't be that bad.

But isnt it a Chinese proverb that mentions "an intellgent man learns from other peoples mistakes?" Also, what the US did happened in the past, the world has changed. What was acceptable then would not be acceptable now. So banking your rights on mistakes of other countries in the past is the best way to maintain pariah status on the world stage.
I'm not banking China's rights (not mine, I'm not Chinese nor do I live there) on the past of the US. I'm merely pointing out that it's a natural phenomenon in nation building. I realize the world changes but some things never change. Just because there is currently no conflict over land or borders in the US does not mean that the planet now sits around content with their borders. It's something that will continue to happen. Looking at national interests, the US benefited greatly from its land acquisitions, whether through diplomacy or might. It's a matter of do as I say, don't do as I do. And besides, I think China cares as much about being the pariah as the US did with ticking off the British Empire with their independence thing, with the difference being now that media is much easier to distribute so it's a lot faster to know what's going on. Large, powerhouse countries generally don't care what the world thinks simply because they don't have to.

cn_habs

01-28-2010, 01:47 AM

Well, I don't feel sorry for you at all! Why? Because I have been in the Chinese forums for too long! I have been monitoring the Chinese media for too long! Our Western media bias toward China is NOTHING compared to China's. MP.net is 1000% better than ANY of the Chinese forums I have been to. Don't feel sorry for you at all! Sorry! That is my true feeling!

Who needs your sorry or pity? That's so pathetic.

Since we learnt from the mistakes committed in the past couple of centuries, we rely on ourselves and take matters in our own hands. Hopefully, you'll still be with there to see the results.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 01:53 AM

Well, I don't feel sorry for you at all! Why? Because I have been in the Chinese forums for too long! I have been monitoring the Chinese media for too long! Our Western media bias toward China is NOTHING compared to China's. MP.net is 1000% better than ANY of the Chinese forums I have been to. Don't feel sorry for you at all! Sorry! That is my true feeling!

Sorry I find it hard to believe what can be worst then the Western reporting durring the run up to the Iraq war. And the so call Western "excellant" reporting durring the Tibeten riots. Every mainstream media was biased to the extend of lying.

plato

01-28-2010, 02:01 AM

Sorry I find it hard to believe what can be worst then the Western reporting durring the run up to the Iraq war. And the so call Western "excellant" reporting durring the Tibeten riots. Every mainstream media was biased to the extend of lying.

Western reporting on the Tibetan riots were 100000% better than what China had to offer. Yes, every media are biased.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 02:07 AM

And also the run up to the Iraq war ?

Instead of blindly supporting "free press" you should be promoting RESPONSIBLE press instead.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 02:13 AM

Back to the topic. When is the DL going to bless the souls of these young girls and condem the Tibeten rioters that "PEACEFULLY" burnned them to death.

http://i42.tinypic.com/vi1sut.jpg

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 02:16 AM

Just a reminder to all on the so call Western "Excellant " reporting.

http://tinypic.com/search.php?type=images&tag=tibet+riots

Ordie

01-28-2010, 02:18 AM

TheMiddlePath:

Why are you an apologist for a despotic and repressive government?

plato

01-28-2010, 02:24 AM

Back to the topic. When is the DL going to bless the souls of these young girls and condem the Tibeten rioters that "PEACEFULLY" burnned them to death.

I hate to bring this simple logic to you. Violent rioters were violent! Peaceful protesters were peaceful! You mixing the two together is childish! The Western media reported on both the violent riots and the peaceful protesters with biases. The Chinese media reported only on the violent riots with more biases. The girls need not to be used by you!

ren0312

01-28-2010, 02:38 AM

Use the H word.

ren0312

01-28-2010, 02:41 AM

TheMiddlePath:

Why are you an apologist for a despotic and repressive government?

Use the H word.

dttk0009

01-28-2010, 02:43 AM

Use the H word.
What's the H word?

Ritual

01-28-2010, 02:45 AM

Hentai? :|

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 07:49 AM

TheMiddlePath:

Why are you an apologist for a despotic and repressive government?

Because I am not and they are not.

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 07:52 AM

I hate to bring this simple logic to you. Violent rioters were violent! Peaceful protesters were peaceful! You mixing the two together is childish! The Western media reported on both the violent riots and the peaceful protesters with biases. The Chinese media reported only on the violent riots with more biases. The girls need not to be used by you!

NO ! It is the so call "10000 times better" press that mix them up.

Henry's Fork

01-28-2010, 09:51 AM

Because I am not and they are not.

Tashi Delek! :grin:

Just got back from 3 weeks in China/Asia and saw all of this repressiveness with my own 2 eyes. Calling it anything but repressive is BS.

Why did they arrest a bunch of Peaceful Pro-Democracy politican/activists in Hong Kong last week?

And why do the Chinese Police shake everyone down who looks like they are a minority or from the country side?

Why does the Chinese government want Nepal and India to hand over Tibetans who have escaped from China? 12 of them in Nepal just last week as well. Why would they want to escape such a utopia the PRC makes out to be in the first place?

Why does China prohibit Tibetans from taking their own children out of China, when the lucky few get to go on pilgramage outside of China?

Why are Tibetans not allowed to gather their native wool and have to use Chinese wool to make their clothes and rugs? Every last weaver in Nepal said the same thing, Commies steal our wool and gave us crappy wool. Great way to control the wool market me thinks.

I loved watching TV while i was there, the propaganda was better than any Comedy show i have ever seen.

CCTV in english wouldnt show any of the Tibetan programs that the Chinese speaking CCTV showed....now why is that?

XZTV took the cake for "washing", they looped the same images over and over through out the news stories. Must be that tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth, reasoning behind that ROFL. Also the majority of Tibetans who were in the pictures and film where not the happiest looking of people. Which says alot, as Tibetans are some of the worlds most freindly and smiling people i have ever met. What took the cake was a traditional Tibetan dance they showed, only it was on a sound stage in Peking, with Chinese girls dressed up in Tibetan outfits. Even the Napalis were as disgusted as the Tibetans in the room watching. Who are you guys trying to fool?

This is the short list. Granted, China HAS done SOME good in Tibet, but the injustices far outweigh the little good. Most Tibetans i know, dont want to go back to the old Tibet, but they sure as hell didnt and dont want the Chinese to bring them into the modern age. But they dont have a choice now, do they.

China is open to foreign eyes and travel. So why do all these internet Chicom lovers say the opposite? Do you think we gwailo are stupid and wouldnt notice?

You are also a total asshole, the DL prays for everyone on this planet, just because you dont hear about it in the news doesnt mean he doesnt. So take your ignorant crap elsewhere.

No need to address these points as i am done with talking to any Chicom line tow-er on the t3h w3b. Like talking to a rock, so dont bother.

Chinese toilet paper is daaam good stuff. But i had to go through alot of it, as the BS was neck high.
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1384/p1140489.th.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/p1140489.jpg/)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1301/p1140490.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/p1140490.jpg/)

plato

01-28-2010, 02:02 PM

NO ! It is the so call "10000 times better" press that mix them up.

Really? How about this? Can you show me ONE example Chinese media reporting on the PEACEFUL protests before, during or after the VILOENT riot? I can show you 10 eaxmples of Western media reporting on the PEACEFUL protests and 50 examples of Western media reporting on the VILONET riots. Are you up to this? ONE vs. 60. Let facts show us how the Chinese media is less biased.

If you like, I can offer 100 examples of Western media reporting on the VILONET riots. I have more than 50 articles, videos, or pictures from CNN alone.

Can you show us ONE example from the Chinese media?

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 10:14 PM

Really? How about this? Can you show me ONE example Chinese media reporting on the PEACEFUL protests before, during or after the VILOENT riot? I can show you 10 eaxmples of Western media reporting on the PEACEFUL protests and 50 examples of Western media reporting on the VILONET riots. Are you up to this? ONE vs. 60. Let facts show us how the Chinese media is less biased.

If you like, I can offer 100 examples of Western media reporting on the VILONET riots. I have more than 50 articles, videos, or pictures from CNN alone.

Can you show us ONE example from the Chinese media?

Plato you are sure hard to understand. Do you mean at the time when the protesters were gathering it was peaceful then when they were told to dispurse they then turn violent ? So you can used that example to say peaceful protesters ?

Sorry that won't hold any water. It was never the intention to be peaceful. Long before, months ago, a year ago, the internet were already buzzing about something big going to happen. History also showed it was never peaceful. Beside it was the Olympic year. So call their last chance.

Even if their intention was to hold a peaceful protest, with so many interest groups funded by your government under NED how do you prevent them from turning violent ? No way.

If there are some Tibetans who can garrentee a true peaceful protest without foreign funds involved. I wish then all the best. I will support them.

And there are many peaceful protest during the European leg of the torch run inside China that were reported. There were protests by Uighur women that were reported. There were monks that spoke out during reporters visit that were reported. Just off my mind.

The press in China at least promote national unity, ethnic harmony and political stability.

Your press incite more riots because that what they want to print. Your job depends on ratings so how to make money if all is peaceful ?

plato

01-28-2010, 10:25 PM

Plato you are sure hard to understand. Do you mean at the time when the protesters were gathering it was peaceful then when they were told to dispurse they then turn violent ? So you can used that example to say peaceful protesters ?

Sorry that won't hold any water. It was never the intention to be peaceful. Long before, months ago, a year ago, the internet were already buzzing about something big going to happen. History also showed it was never peaceful. Beside it was the Olympic year. So call their last chance.

Even if their intention was to hold a peaceful protest, with so many interest groups funded by your government under NED how do you prevent them from turning violent ? No way.

If there are some Tibetans who can garrentee a true peaceful protest without foreign funds involved. I wish then all the best. I will support them.

And there are many peaceful protest durring the tourch inside China that were reported. There were protests by Uighur women that were reported. There were monks that spoke out durring reporters visit that were reported. just off my mind.

I don't know maybe something like this? This PEACEFUL protest did NOT turn violent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbTsNu08Xqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZfDm33IPc

How about just ONE Chinese media report on PEACEFUL protests by Tibetans? I am sure there must be ONE, right?

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 10:40 PM

plato

01-28-2010, 10:43 PM

So does that mean your press are any better when it comes to reporting on China ?

I can think of many. MANY cases of Chinese peaceful protests in the thousands all over the Europe that was never reported. But what was reported was a few violent Tibetan protesters.

I think you are right there are many such cases, but I can find at least ONE case where these peaceful Chinese protests are reported. Am I right? Can you find ONE case where these peaceful Tibetan protests are reported by mainland Chinese media?

How about this? I find 10 cases of western media reporting on peaceful Chinese protests in the West, and all you need to do is to find ONE similar case by the Chinese on Tibetans? Deal?

10 vs 1. Fair, right? You talked the talk, now let us walk the walk.

plato

01-28-2010, 10:48 PM

So does that mean your press are any better when it comes to reporting on China ?

I can think of many. MANY cases of Chinese peaceful protests in the thousands all over the Europe that was never reported. But what was reported was a few violent Tibetan protesters.

In fact during the torch run in SF, TWO planes was flying two banners supporting the Olympic and stating Tibet is part of China ..legally that was not reported. But a banner put up illegally and dangerously on the SF Bridge was reported.

SO THERE.

Did that protest take place in China? I don't think so!

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 10:52 PM

TheMiddlePath

01-28-2010, 10:59 PM

What we need is more of these reporting. Not every often the BBC broadcast in full China side of the story and not very often China has an official who can express herself in English.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8480000/8480155.stm

Jµµso

01-28-2010, 11:09 PM

Tibet is China's buffer zone against India. I dont see why would they leave and let themselves to be vulnerable? Don't make sense.

plato

01-28-2010, 11:40 PM

Not fair. Who dominate the flow of information in the world ... the West. China side of the story will never be heard. Perhaps one day when China dominate the flow of information then only will it be fair ?

The west dominates the flow of information in China? You know what, that is it, you can't walk the walk.

acosta

01-29-2010, 12:02 AM

talking of media...omg, they are all whores.

matthew.manhorn

01-29-2010, 10:18 AM

Xing Jian also plays a big role

Wonder if China gives the same amount of autocracy to Tibet as it was to Hong Kong, will Xing Jian demand autocracy as well.

plato

01-29-2010, 10:23 AM

Xing Jian also plays a big role

Wonder if China gives the same amount of autocracy to Tibet as it was to Hong Kong, will Xing Jian demand autocracy as well.

The short answer is NO. China gives the least amount of autocracy to Tibet and Xing Jiang. Just like North Korea is named Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Xing Jiang Uyghur Autonomous Region is just a name, it has no real meaning whatsoever. In fact it is the least autonomous region in China.

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 01:10 AM

The west dominates the flow of information in China? You know what, that is it, you can't walk the walk.

I beleive I said the West dominate the flow of information in the World. You are a reporter aren't you. They teach you how to lie too ?

And I believe I already post a few example off my head of protests that were not violent that were reported. There are more. In fact there was an interview done by BBC with the Chinese Miniority Minister at the time of the run up to the Olympic that was never printed in full. Only a Chinese version in China was available. Why BBC would not print an interview after going thourgh all the trouble and right at a time when China's side of the story was badly needed to be told to the West.

In any case if BBC were to do that (to print article in full of Chinese official explaination) the next day they get bombarded with complains that BBC is becoming a mouth piece of the CCP. It appears some people just do not want to hear the other side. Period.

Sometimes when some good news comes out of China it get slammed for being propaganda. But these same people would have no problem if the news were bad. And there are plenty of bad news reported and being picked up by Western media. And they will add a punchline to rub the salt in.

plato

01-30-2010, 01:15 AM

I beleive I said the West dominate the flow of information in the World. You are a reporter aren't you. They teach you how to lie too ?

I see. But, you do agree that Chinese government dominates the flow of information inside China, right?

No, they taught me how to use "?" mark. So, it can never be a lie. The FOX news does that all the time.

Smiling_Wolf

01-30-2010, 01:26 AM

They taught me how to use "?" mark.

"?"

^^^^^^
This symbol probably strikes more terror in a dictatorship than any invading army.
People should learn to use it more often.

As for Tibet - as long as it avoids being the brutal theocracy it once was, and doesn't separate, I'm all for the Dalai Lama coming back and governing it autonomously. Because as it stands, no amount of money is going to make the Tibetans love China any better.

plato

01-30-2010, 01:28 AM

I beleive I said the West dominate the flow of information in the World. You are a reporter aren't you. They teach you how to lie too ?

And I believe I already post a few example off my head of protests that were not violent that were reported. There are more. In fact there was an interview done by BBC with the Chinese Miniority Minister at the time of the run up to the Olympic that was never printed in full. Only a Chinese version in China was available. Why BBC would not print an interview after going thourgh all the trouble and right at a time when China's side of the story was badly needed to be told to the West.

In any case if BBC were to do that (to print article in full of Chinese official explaination) the next day they get bombarded with complains that BBC is becoming a mouth piece of the CCP. It appears some people just do not want to hear the other side. Period.

Yes, that is true. Many people don't want to hear the other side no matter what. But, at least you have to be able to present the other side. Where is that "other side" in China?

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 02:38 AM

Yes, that is true. Many people don't want to hear the other side no matter what. But, at least you have to be able to present the other side. Where is that "other side" in China?

China is changing every year if you have not notice. China has priorities and focusing on its priority which is stability and economic growth. China is adding million onto the internet. There are tens of thousands of students being send overseas every year.

There is going to be alot of changes to the mass media industry because of the internet. It going to expend big time. I am sure being a reporter in China you are aware.

You should consider joining CCTV. Many already has. Susan Osman sounds familiar to you ? You can host the 'Migrant Worker Show' your favarite topic.

Nightsky

01-30-2010, 03:18 AM

Bad analogy. Overwhelming majority of AZ population are Americans and want to stay that way. Vs. Tibet, where majority of Tibetans are not Chinese and don't want any part of it....
Once you realize this, it get easier....

Nope, good analogy. Let's see what Tibetians want in another 100 years if China keeps prospering.

According to your logic, the US would have had to dispose of Hawaii for instance. So let it be, time will tell.

And China is just catching up. They are industrialising like the US did a hundred years ago, they are assimilating like the US did a hundred years ago. And in a hundred years it'll just be history.

Confuse

01-30-2010, 05:57 AM

"?"

^^^^^^
This symbol probably strikes more terror in a dictatorship than any invading army.
People should learn to use it more often.

As for Tibet - as long as it avoids being the brutal theocracy it once was, and doesn't separate, I'm all for the Dalai Lama coming back and governing it autonomously. Because as it stands, no amount of money is going to make the Tibetans love China any better.

If that is the case then china will always need to hedge it's bets and always have a back up plan to recapture tibet in case of separation attempt... the whole let the dalai lama run his own kingdom UNCHECKED resulted in the serf system becoming so bad and the last two times that it wanted total power , one being before to qing dynasty collapse and the relationship with the ROC government, another was the 1950-59 period where the dalai lama and communist were trying to work out a peaceful reintegration of tibet back into the government structure.

What needs to be done is the separation of state and religion, a civilian local tibetan government without lama power is what's needed, while the yellow hat sect needs to give up more power to the other sects, which is basically the dalai lama having too much power over the other sects ( in the 1600-1700 the sects were more or less equal with the yellow hat sect of the dalai lama killing off other sects member and pushing to dominate the lama structure, the qing dynasty supported the rise of the yellow hat to domination due to the fact that the dalai lama was "their" man and thus they wanted his to have top position to cement its control in tibet

Confuse

01-30-2010, 06:01 AM

what the dalai lama wants when it mean meaningful automony is the return of exile government to power in tibet, while such a situation the communists don't trust the dalai lama to not use it later on as a means to legitimize independence over territory.

hskywalker

01-30-2010, 07:13 AM

Tibet was an autonomy from 1950-1959, dalai's clan wasn't satisfied at that time.

Confuse

01-30-2010, 07:49 AM

Tibet was an autonomy from 1950-1959, dalai's clan wasn't satisfied at that time.

same with the 1700-1911 era of late qing ...also same things, outside deal for total power, serfs aren't enough, doesn't want to answer to emperor. I would get the other sects to at least the same status as the yellow hat, dalai lama has too much power against other sects of tibetan lamas take would want reform.. alot of the communist tibetan politicians are former dalai lama officials that wanted reform and saw the communist consolidation of china as the reform away from theocracy

Player

01-30-2010, 09:13 AM

Back to the topic. When is the DL going to bless the souls of these young girls and condem the Tibeten rioters that "PEACEFULLY" burnned them to death.

1. What is your source? I'm interested to read about this incident.

2. There are violent extremists in every population, however this doesn't change the fact that most Tibetan protests were of a peaceful nature. Most of the time it's the Chinese authorities who use violence to oppress peaceful protests.

Henry's Fork

01-30-2010, 09:33 AM

same with the 1700-1911 era of late qing ...also same things, outside deal for total power, serfs aren't enough, doesn't want to answer to emperor. I would get the other sects to at least the same status as the yellow hat, dalai lama has too much power against other sects of tibetan lamas take would want reform.. alot of the communist tibetan politicians are former dalai lama officials that wanted reform and saw the communist consolidation of china as the reform away from theocracy

They are called the "2 faces" by the vast majority of Tibetans in the world, even by many who still live in Tibet. Willing to sell out their culture, religion and people for BLING BLING. Happens in every society to a extent.

Even the DL stated that Tibet had to change to catch up with the times. But it was too slow and too late for the sellouts who wanted change overnite. (reminds me of the US today, we shall reap what we sow..)

Confuse

01-30-2010, 10:35 AM

They are called the "2 faces" by the vast majority of Tibetans in the world, even by many who still live in Tibet. Willing to sell out their culture, religion and people for BLING BLING. Happens in every society to a extent.

Even the DL stated that Tibet had to change to catch up with the times. But it was too slow and too late for the sellouts who wanted change overnite. (reminds me of the US today, we shall reap what we sow..)

Same could be said for the chinese civil war, hindsight is always 20/20 ... the problem with the communist tibetans is that they are could in between two worlds, one being other tibetans loyal to the dalai lama and the other being the top officials in beijing. IMO beijing needs to get it's local tibetan communists under control as they are too heavy handed in pursuit to hold power doing things that beijing would see as negative to the long term softening of han-tibetan tensions but can't/won't be harsh on them for fear of losing tibet.. so yeah in a word they are "2 faced" as they are playing both sides.

What there need to be is reform to let minorities feel like they are not second class and have a say in their political lives and not feel overwhelmed by the majority. Foreign involvement in such reform movements as dissident chinese, exile tibetans , uyghurs are seen as divide and conquer (which does have historic pressidence in china not just communist BLAH BLAH BLAH) and not help, which in turn takes power away from reforms in china and give it to the hardliners

With issue of multi ethnic integration there are only two real ways.. one being compromising to the needs of the minority (which china needs to do differently cause it's current affirmative action policies are not enough in religious and social terms), the other is total domination of the majority culture over the minority like early US wild west days or european colonies against natives ( which isn't an option in today's china.. pre 1979 mao's era maybe, but that was more a ideology domination not an ethnic one) ... in today's china there isn't a push for one dominating ethnic way, there isn't even much of a ideological push (most chinese don't care about politics/communism), but there is a push for integration nationalism (PRC nationalism not han nationalism) with the communist party being at the center

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 10:46 AM

1. What is your source? I'm interested to read about this incident.

2. There are violent extremists in every population, however this doesn't change the fact that most Tibetan protests were of a peaceful nature. Most of the time it's the Chinese authorities who use violence to oppress peaceful protests.

This incident never acknowleged by the DL.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jXWUkwrVIBE&feature=related

Player

01-30-2010, 11:04 AM

well,dude.Tibet has been as part of china for 800 years.

Who told you this ridiculous claim? Tibet was never a part of China. Maybe you mean Chinese occupied Tibet, but even this started roughly 60 years ago.

and 99% of international communities see tibet is part of china.

Again, where do you get such amazing pieces of information from? Just don't tell me it's from your local Chinese newspaper.

when did you see chinese kills tibetans in the wild? was it in you dream? a fancy one?

Just to prove you wrong, here's one among many other incidents:

Chinese guards killed Tibetans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5409916.stm

(by the way tibetans are also chinese)

That's not entirely correct; Tibetans are citizens of the PRC, other than that they're not Chinese by any means.

in the end, china is not yugoslavia, it's a superpower. what do you think UK government can do, to revenge, for you fancy dream, did chinese snipers also kill brits in the wild too, as you've seen in that dream?

The only thing I realize from your words is how pathetic must be to joke about victims of the regime...

Confuse

01-30-2010, 11:04 AM

This incident never acknowleged by the DL.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jXWUkwrVIBE&feature=related

Of course not, the dalai lama is locked in a power struggle within the exile community.. in such light anything that is deemed as negative to the independence cause is not reported and anything that might be seen as giving in to the communists is more power to the radical tibetans that threaten the dalai lama's control over exile communities actions.. the old generation exile leaders know that if the radicals take hold then the tibetans chances of autonomy let alone independence are gone, currently the relationship between the CPC and exile tibetan community are bad but as other places in the world should could get much, much worse. There could begin to be a real government sponsored colonization and not the seasonal migrants and tourists that go to tibet now. Even worse would be a nationalist civilian han migration that the CPC can't control hell bent on securing tibet by removing tibetan culture (as it is right now there are tensions, but it is based on ignorance and unknown culture between both side and not viewing someones culture as a evil to be removed a la new world european versus natives

plato

01-30-2010, 11:18 AM

This incident never acknowleged by the DL.

Why should Dalai Lama acknowledge this incident? He did not burn these girls nor does he know what really happened.

Compare to the Uighurs, Tibetans are far less violent.

http://vimeo.com/5675759

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc7zjkHKMbY

Player

01-30-2010, 11:19 AM

This incident never acknowleged by the DL.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jXWUkwrVIBE&feature=related

Not saying that some Tibetans couldn't be responsible for this, but haven't you got other sources? This is a PRC media outlet and is hardly unbiased when it comes to reporting about Tibet.

Confuse

01-30-2010, 11:31 AM

Who told you this ridiculous claim? Tibet was never a part of China. Maybe you meant Chinese occupied Tibet, but even this started roughly 60 years ago.

Tibet has been on and off part of China for roughly 800 years in a very loose sense (state within a state, medieval lordship and king type of relationship, except instead of noble it was lamas also they became the state religion of china, thus some sort of union situation) Real direct chinese control only happen 60 years ago, and that was a effect of the lamas going into exile leaving only communists (could have turned out same even if there wasn't exile due to cultural revolution, but would have recovered after its end and trial of gang of four)

Again, where do you get such amazing pieces of information from? Just don't tell me it's from your local Chinese newspaper.

by 99% I think he means territorial sovereignty not public opinion

Just to prove you wrong, here's one among many other incidents:

Chinese guards killed Tibetans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5409916.stm

Trigger happy Border guard action spun to be pro-tibetan anti-chinese... in light of 60 years of being opposite side of the cold war almost anything in the media regarding the issue of tibetans and china is going to be pro-tibetan and anti-chinese , facts need not apply just as long as it grabs headlines (i'm not saying that what the border guards did was right, but to instantly jump to "hunting down like dogs" is retarded)

That's not entirely correct; Tibetans are citizens of the PRC, other than that they're not Chinese by any means.

while to a accurate the "chinese" are not call chinese but the han, to most people its interchangable.. kinda how some would be "american" = white when it doesn't.. they are chinese in a national sense not a cultural sense if your using it as a description of han-chinese (even han-chinese is a very loose term...taiwanese are han-chinese, but there are some of them that don't see it as the same as they don't want to be with the mainland)

The only thing I realize from your words is how pathetic must be to joke about the victims of the regime...

OK..yeah acosta is being an ass.. but in real politics terms as sh*t as it sounds it a fact .. it's the same reality that many powerful countries have brought too others at times of opposite power, we humans are a world of slightly advance monkeys and the raw truth of it is that went it comes down to it and sh*t hits the fan all of our supposed cultural advancement over the last 10000 years adds up to pocket lint and it devolves into laws of the jungle

plato

01-30-2010, 11:32 AM

Not saying that some Tibetans couldn't be responsible for this, but haven't you got other sources? This is a PRC media outlet and is hardly unbiased when it comes to reporting about Tibet.

PRC media outlets are so unbiased that TheMiddlePath could not provide even ONE example of them reporting on the peaceful Tibetan protests. You see, only biased media can provide reports on both the peaceful protests and violent riots. At least what TheMiddlePath thinks.

Confuse

01-30-2010, 11:45 AM

Why should Dalai Lama acknowledge this incident? He did not burn these girls nor does he know what really happened.

Compare to the Uighurs, Tibetans are far less violent.

http://vimeo.com/5675759

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc7zjkHKMbY

most tibetans are not religious extremists .. while the issue of the uyghurs there is a larger movement beyond just ethnic issues and one of religious extremist that are willing to kill not just on ethnic reason but religious grounds against non-muslim as part of being influenced by arab and central asian muslims to build a muslim caliphate across the muslim world

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 11:45 AM

Tashi Delek to you too.

Tashi Delek! :grin:

Just got back from 3 weeks in China/Asia and saw all of this repressiveness with my own 2 eyes. Calling it anything but repressive is BS.

Why did they arrest a bunch of Peaceful Pro-Democracy politican/activists in Hong Kong last week?

Simple. They broke the law. I believe they assaulted the police. These protesters has been protesting peacefully but turned violent when they did not get what they want.

Why does the Chinese government want Nepal and India to hand over Tibetans who have escaped from China? 12 of them in Nepal just last week as well. Why would they want to escape such a utopia the PRC makes out to be in the first place?

Nepal is an independent country. They use election to elected their own government. What they do is their business. China just requested that they do not allow their land to be used by forces that want to harm China’s interest. And likewise China has never allow its land to be use by anti Nepalese forces.

Why are Tibetans not allowed to gather their native wool and have to use Chinese wool to make their clothes and rugs? Every last weaver in Nepal said the same thing, Commies steal our wool and gave us crappy wool. Great way to control the wool market me thinks.

And your sources ?

I loved watching TV while i was there, the propaganda was better than any Comedy show i have ever seen.

CCTV in english wouldnt show any of the Tibetan programs that the Chinese speaking CCTV showed....now why is that?

The English Channel is not that professional. It is slow and looks amateurish. The Chinese channels are much lively and fast. There are so many many Tibetan cultural programs in English. Maybe you just missed it. Doesn’t this show that the Tibetan culture is far from being destroyed.

This is the short list. Granted, China HAS done SOME good in Tibet, but the injustices far outweigh the little good. Most Tibetans i know, dont want to go back to the old Tibet, but they sure as hell didnt and dont want the Chinese to bring them into the modern age. But they dont have a choice now, do they.

And if China did not bring them into the modern world, the West will bitch about how China is ignoring the Tibetans and not investing in Tibet. When China invest and modernized Tibet they are being accused of bring them into the modern world. Dammed it you do and dammed if you don’t.

Let the Tibetan become wealty and modern first. Then ask them if they want to be poor again they can go ahead.

China is open to foreign eyes and travel. So why do all these internet Chicom lovers say the opposite? Do you think we gwailo are stupid and wouldnt notice?

Yes China is not hiding anything. There were two Free Tibet students that also visited Tibet and then made documentary why Tibet need not be independent. So why do you Free Tibet lovers says the opposite ?

dlat83

01-30-2010, 11:55 AM

Another country full of tyrants-China.

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 12:00 PM

PRC media outlets are so unbiased that TheMiddlePath could not provide even ONE example of them reporting on the peaceful Tibetan protests. You see, only biased media can provide reports on both the peaceful protests and violent riots. At least what TheMiddlePath thinks.

Gosh, did I say PRC media outlets are unbiased ? Another one of the tricks they teach you in your Western school of journalism ? I did not see a "?" so does that mean you are lying ?

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 12:01 PM

Another country full of tyrants-China.

Another brainwashed poster.

Player

01-30-2010, 12:01 PM

Trigger happy Border guard action spun to be pro-tibetan anti-chinese... in light of 60 years of being opposite side of the cold war almost anything in the media regarding the issue of tibetans and china is going to be pro-tibetan and anti-chinese , facts need not apply just as long as it grabs headlines (i'm not saying that what the border guards did was right, but to instantly jump to "hunting down like dogs" is retarded)

I doubt this is the case here. There are enough facts that don't help the image of China, and reporting them doesn't make somebody biased.

OK..yeah acosta is being an ass.. but in real politics terms as sh*t as it sounds it a fact .. it's the same reality that many powerful countries have brought too others at times of opposite power, we humans are a world of slightly advance monkeys and the raw truth of it is that went it comes down to it and sh*t hits the fan all of our supposed cultural advancement over the last 10000 years adds up to pocket lint and it devolves into laws of the jungle

Yes, people are far from perfect, but this doesn't mean we should accept such attitude. Everyone of us can help the good cause at least by following the principle of "live and let others live".

plato

01-30-2010, 12:20 PM

Gosh, did I say PRC media outlets are unbiased ? Another one of the tricks they teach you in your Western school of journalism ? I did not see a "?" so does that mean you are lying ?

i see, maybe I should do this instead "unbiased". If you want to play this childish game, then I can also ask you:"did I say you said the PRC media outlets are unbiased?". I did not say you said it, "so does that mean you are lying?" How fun! Being childish is a bless

cn_habs

01-30-2010, 03:11 PM

I doubt this is the case here. There are enough facts that don't help the image of China, and reporting them doesn't make somebody biased.

Yes, people are far from perfect, but this doesn't mean we should accept such attitude. Everyone of us can help the good cause at least by following the principle of "live and let others live".

Have you not read what Ordie has been posting lately? Tibet is more than just a piece of land and keeps our backyard secure so the Chinese can live peacefully without worrying about foreign powers in the backyard. What would the Israelis have done in our shoes?

TheMiddlePath

01-30-2010, 06:17 PM

i see, maybe I should do this instead "unbiased". If you want to play this childish game, then I can also ask you:"did I say you said the PRC media outlets are unbiased?". I did not say you said it, "so does that mean you are lying?" How fun! Being childish is a bless

Gosh. You need not need to get your head unexamined.

plato

01-30-2010, 06:22 PM

Gosh. You need not need to get your head unexamined.

Why are you so concerned about people's heads? First you call someone is brainwashed, and now this? you are frustrated by my head problems?

Blue P

01-30-2010, 06:26 PM

it's so ironic that america and most western countries constitutionally forbid theocracy from taking place in their goverments, while the citizens of same so called civilized countries are trying their best to make china give away a piece of land to a living god.

plato

01-30-2010, 06:30 PM

Eventine

01-30-2010, 08:51 PM

Eventine

01-30-2010, 09:03 PM

Another country full of tyrants-China.

It's time for a wake up call.

China is full of tyrants because tyrants are apparently the only ones with the guts and ability to fight. The Communists won in China because they fought better, end of story. With all the aid the US was able to provide, the well-armed, well-entrenched KMT was swept from the field and taken down by a handful of Soviet sponsored guerillas who were down to their last legs during the Long March. You tell me why they won.

China has been invaded, conquered, and ruled many times by nomadic tribes whose only advantage was the fact that they were able to out-fight the other contenders, including the native Chinese. This has been the key to political power, in China, from the very beginning. If the liberals and human rights activists were able to out fight the tyrants, they wouldn't be in the situation they are in, today. The same is true of the Tibetans, Uyghurs, etc.

Might makes history. The reason so many people are Chinese, today, is because their ancestors were conquered by Chinese (or at least, those who took up the Chinese mantle for prestige). The Communists started off as any other Chinese dynastic conqueror did - as a small group of people with the ambition to rule it all.

Blue P

01-30-2010, 09:05 PM

As the West generally declines, it will matter less and less in this debate. The future of Tibet lies in the relationship between China and India. On the religious and political ront, the Dalai Lama may or may not be able to successfully transfer his authority to the next generation, and that will be the key to watch for in the coming transitional phase.

sorry, but china has absolutely no business to do with india on this issue.

tibet belongs to china. and dalai lama, as long as not giving up all political demands, will live and die as a separatist wanted by chinese people. where he lives or dies, does not worth any concern.

Eventine

01-30-2010, 09:13 PM

sorry, but china has absolutely no business to do with india on this issue.

tibet belongs to china. and dalai lama, as long as not giving up all political demands, will live and die as a separatist wanted by chinese people. where he lives or dies, does not worth any concern.

India has a better demographic profile than China does, but given how vulnerable it is to any kind of all-out attack (ie nuclear), it is unlikely that India will be able to directly confront China. History shows that India has seldom involved itself with Chinese affairs, not the least because - simply put - it did not have the power projection to do so. Tibet formed the natural barrier between the two civilizations, and will likely continue to do so. However, politically speaking the Tibetan government-in-exile is located in India and the region is on the Indian agenda due to national security concerns. This is why I think India will become more important in this debate, ultimately.

Blue P

01-30-2010, 09:23 PM

India has a better demographic profile than China does, but given how vulnerable it is to any kind of all-out attack (ie nuclear), it is unlikely that India will be able to directly confront China. History shows that India has seldom involved itself with Chinese affairs, not the least because - simply put - it did not have the power projection to do so. Tibet formed the natural barrier between the two civilizations, and will likely continue to do so. However, politically speaking the Tibetan government-in-exile is located in India and the region is on the Indian agenda due to national security concerns. This is why I think India will become more important in this debate, ultimately.

tibet, is inside of the chinese border after all. and so called tibatan goverment-in-exile has 0 influence to chinese goverment. they are just a bunch of criminals to most chinese people. if any members get identified in china, they probably will get torn apart by locals before any policeman arrives.

and india, its ambition is one thing, ability is another.

i'm sorry, india. none of your business here. :p

oh, and i dont quite understand the meaning of 'better demographic profile'. last time i checked, they have nearly a quarter of the population struggling with starvation.

Eventine

01-30-2010, 09:28 PM

Yes. The ethnic cleansing of the native Americans was not a genocide in my opinion though (small isolated cases that were even at the time looked at with disdain), but you should definitely be ok with it considering what has been accomplished as a result. Most of the natives died as a result of disease with pockets of armed resistance. Every, ok most nations are where they are today because they fought for their land and kicked out/killed/assimilated the native/previous inhabitants. It's a power struggle that has been going on ever since borders were declared.

European colonization of the New World was accomplished the same way most other successful colonizations were accomplished: by population swamping. It wasn't so much the systematic genocide of Native Americans as it was a combination of demographic vulnerability on the part of local populations (due to Old World diseases, lack of technology, etc.), demographic strength on the part of colonizing populations (European population boom, better weapons, etc.), and, of course, the will of the latter to colonize. Europeans simply out-peopled the natives through their superior numbers, and if China does the same thing in Tibet, in a hundred or two hundred years you will see a Chinese province with a few pockets of Tibetans (possibly living on reservations) and a number of Chinese with partial Tibetan descent.

hulaku

01-31-2010, 02:21 AM

oh, and i dont quite understand the meaning of 'better demographic profile'. last time i checked, they have nearly a quarter of the population struggling with starvation.

What do starving Indians have to do with your stunted vocabulary???

Blue P

01-31-2010, 02:29 AM

What do starving Indians have to do with your stunted vocabulary???

feed your people before trying to grab the other countries' land?

hope the tip helps

hulaku

01-31-2010, 02:40 AM

feed your people before trying to grab the other countries' land?

hope the tip helps

We are already working on reducing poverty and hey we are even helping China get rid of its poverty.

India begins first poverty alleviation project in China

India has begun its first poverty alleviation project (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/India-begins-poverty-alleviation-project-in-China/articleshow/4683227.cms) in China, sponsoring a farmers’ training and information center in Ningxia.
he first-ever India funded project, which is really a diplomatic initiative to connect with a provincial government, was inaugurated by Nirupama Rao, Indian ambassador in China, and Wang Zhengwei, chairman of the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, in Liangtian township on Saturday. The NHAR is jointly funding the project with the Indian government.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/poverty-alleviation/

A Chinese source for you comrade:)

Sorry for the OT.

Blue P

01-31-2010, 02:51 AM

We are already working on reducing poverty and hey we are even helping China get rid of its poverty.

India begins first poverty alleviation project in China

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/poverty-alleviation/

thank you, my generous friend.

maybe your own countrymen be in the same caring hands.

http://www.rajputbrotherhood.com/Knowledge-Hub/Articles/how-to-save-indian-from-starvation.html

The right to food is the right of every person. Every individual must have regular access to sufficient, nutritionally adequate and culturally acceptable food for an active and healthy life. At present, this is a major developmental challenge in India. We cannot feel proud of our achievements in different areas until this basic need of each individual is met.It is an irony of fate that in spite of good grain supplies, in respect of wheat and rice, and domestic production far exceeding the demand over the last more than two decades, India has been witnessing the unmanageably bulging stocks and shortages alternately. It is due to the irrational export and import policy being followed by the policy makers.

This is what exactly the recently released report, State of Food Insecurity in Rural India states. Released jointly by the UN world food programme and M.S. Swaminathan research foundation, the report states that India tops the global hunger chart with 230 million undernourished people who comprise more than a quarter of the world’s undernourished population. It is not merely about food availability, but access to food.