Scottish and Spaniards vs English

[tattooman]

The Battle of Glen Shiel (Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic): Blàr Ghleann Sheile (http://gd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bl%C3%A0r_Ghleann_Sheile)) was a battle in Glen Shiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Shiel), in the West Highlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands) of Scotland on 10 June 1719, between British government troops and an alliance of Jacobites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobitism) and Spaniards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards), resulting in a victory for the government forces. It was the last close engagement of British and foreign troops on mainland Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain). The Battle of Glen Shiel is sometimes considered an extension of the 1715 rising, but is more correctly a separate rebellion and was the only rising to be extinguished by a single military action.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Glen_Shiel#cite_note-1)

The Battle of Glen Shiel

After moving around for one month, the Spaniards had learned by the beginning of June that Ormonde would never come. In spite of this, they gathered clansmen for a last action, with a total of 1,000 troops.
On 5 June, British government forces composed of both English and Scottish soldiers under General Joseph Wightman came from Inverness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverness) to block their march. They consisted of 850 infantry, 120 dragoons and 4 mortar batteries.
They confronted the Jacobites at Glen Shiel, just a few miles from Loch Duich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Duich), on 10 June, near the Five Sisters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintail) hills. The Galician regiment occupied the top and the front of one of the hills, to their advantage, while the Jacobite Scots manned barricades on the sides.
The engagement began between about five and six o'clock when the left wing of the British government army advanced against Lord George Murray's position on the south side of the river. The position was first shelled by the mortar batteries and then attacked by four platoons of Clayton's regiment and Munro's. After some initial stubborn resistance, Lord George Murray's unsupported men were driven from their position and forced to retreat.
Once the Jacobite right wing had been dislodged, Wightman ordered his right wing to attack the Jacobite left.
The detachment, commanded by Lord Seaforth, was strongly positioned behind a group of rocks on the hillside. It was against them that Harrison's and Montigue's regiments were directed. Seaforth was reinforced by his own men under Sir John MacKenzie. Hard pressed, Seaforth sent for further reinforcements. Another group of men, under Rob Roy, went to his aid, but before it could reach him, his men gave way, and Seaforth himself was badly wounded.
Wightman concentrated his troops on the flanks, while the mortars battered the whole and pinned the Spaniards in their positions. Wightman's whole force was now directed toward the Jacobite centre.
The Spanish regulars stood their ground well, but found that most of their allies had deserted them, so they too retreated up the hill. Other clans followed and left their allies retreating uphill.
At 9 o'clock in the evening, they surrendered, three hours after the start of the combat, while the remaining Jacobites fled into the fog, to escape execution as traitors.
The Jacobites were poorly provisioned and armed, and when the expected Jacobite support from the Lowlanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Lowlands) was minimal, spirits fell completely. The Rising was abandoned and the Jacobites dispersed to their homes.
The mountain in Glen Shiel on which the battle took place is called Sgurr na Ciste Duibhe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgurr_na_Ciste_Duibhe), it has a subsidiary peak which was named Sgurr nan Spainteach (The Peak of the Spaniards) in honour of the Spanish forces who fought admirably in the battle

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Full history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Glen_Shiel

[CMNot]

A common misconception, "Scotland" rising against the evil English zionists.

[tattooman]

Too sensibly, is history no politics. If you prefer some part of Scotland hehe. Who talk about zionists?

[Toddy1]

The Jacobite risings were a farce which gathered speed on the romantic visualisations of two pathetic leaders in James and "Bonnie" (my arse) Prince Charlie, who couldn't run fast enough from Drumossie Moor (Culloden fer a' ye Sassenachs). All they succeeded in doing was bringing down yet another family society under the heal of civilisation. (mind you the Scots could never agree on anything, clan to clan, highland to lowland so its no surprise that we never got anywhere).

Interesting to note that one James Wolfe was present during the 45' campaign

During Drumossie Moor, Wolfe was the aide-de-camp to General Hawley. Within an hour Cumberland was to bring the Scottish rebellion to an absolute end. Over 1,000 highlanders were slaughtered, and, on Cumberland's orders, many more were butchered as they lay wounded and helpless.

One of the stories that came out of Drumossie Moor was that Wolfe was requested by his commander-in-chief, the Duke of Cumberland, to shoot "that Highland scoundrel who dares to look upon us with so insolent a stare," alluding to the Colonel of the Fraser Regiment, to which Wolfe indignantly replied that his commission was at His Royal Highness's disposal, but that he never would consent to become an executioner."

It is further reported that it was this incident which caused the Fraser Regiment to cling so affectionately to Wolfe when he came to America in the years 1758 and 1759

[sasman73]

Since when was the jacobite rising about Engand v Scotland?

[Dave242]

Interesting to note that one James Wolfe was present during the 45' campaign


One has to ask if TB had not done him in, and he was around a few year's latter;)

What would have been the result?

Dave

[DPM_Sheep]

I must be missing something here, but James Wolfe died at the Battle of Quebec....

[Dave242]

I must be missing something here, but James Wolfe died at the Battle of Quebec....

No you are not missing anythink and you are right that he died due to gun shot wounds, at the Battle of Quebec. He was shot 3 times Arm, Sholder and Chest. But some Historians and Medical Professions, belive that if he was/had not been suffering from TB. Maybe he could have lived. And if so, then maybe the War of Independence would have had been lost by the Revolutionaries

Dave

[Toddy1]

Since when was the jacobite rising about Engand v Scotland?

Are you being serious? The Stuarts wanted the throne back from the Hanovarians and they used the Scots to try to push that claim (well the Highland Scots mainly). So it was all about England V Scotland

[Toddy1]

No you are not missing anythink and you are right that he died due to gun shot wounds, at the Battle of Quebec. He was shot 3 times Arm, Sholder and Chest. But some Historians and Medical Professions, belive that if he was/had not been suffering from TB. Maybe he could have lived. And if so, then maybe the War of Independence would have had been lost by the Revolutionaries

Dave

I would say that it would have been a vastly different outcome, you just can't compare Cornwallis with Wolfe

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Are you being serious? The Stuarts wanted the throne back from the Hanovarians and they used the Scots to try to push that claim (well the Highland Scots mainly). So it was all about England V Scotland

Exactly and with the French (and Spanish) sticking their oars in to make a second front against Britain when it suited them. Of course they were never around to help their Scottish patsies when it came to payback time. The Scots Nats conveniently forget it was never about Scotland vs England but are too blinded by their petty prejudices to ever acknowledge it.

[CMNot]

The less convenient truth of British troops and Lowland Scots against Catholics and Highlanders does not make the same copy. Especially if your idea of a good fap involves Mel Gibson :roll:

[Toddy1]

Exactly and with the French (and Spanish) sticking their oars in to make a second front against Britain when it suited them. Of course they were never around to help their Scottish patsies when it came to payback time. The Scots Nats conveniently forget it was never about Scotland vs England but are too blinded by their petty prejudices to ever acknowledge it.

The Scots Nats are a little dillusional, I am all for being proud to be Scottish but all this rubbish about seperating from the rest of Britain is rubbish.

Was probably more closely Scots vs Scots as usual, with a couple of English regiments thrown in for good measure. And yes very much like CMN says below, Proddy V Catholic...not much has changed

[Sada]

Proddy V Catholic...not much has changed
Rangers Vs Celtic today?
Still it´s admirable that scars sealed so well among english and scots people, there were many centuries of wars until XVIII century, actually they look like more merciless massacres and butcheries than battles, it wouldn´t be so easy going in other places. About the century change from XVII to XVIII in Scotland I read somewhere that the technical jake mate to an independent Scotland came after the big failure of their colonial project in Darien(Panama), the colonnos couldn´t suffer the tropical diseases and the campaign against them of neighbour spanish troops(probably local militias) and the financial disaster somewhat faded away any dream of a prosperous independant Scotland.

[Toddy1]

Rangers Vs Celtic today?
Still it´s admirable that scars sealed so well among english and scots people, there were many centuries of wars until XVIII century, actually they look like more merciless massacres and butcheries than battles, it wouldn´t be so easy going in other places. About the century change from XVII to XVIII in Scotland I read somewhere that the technical jake mate to an independent Scotland came after the big failure of their colonial project in Darien(Panama), the colonnos couldn´t suffer the tropical diseases and the campaign against them of neighbour spanish troops(probably local militias) and the financial disaster somewhat faded away any dream of a prosperous independant Scotland.

Correct re Rangers V Celtic, still very much a sore point amongst both sets of supporters. I think though that the fact Celtic fly the tricolour (Irish flag) adds to the hysteria, although they would probably say the same about Rangers flying the Union Jack although not quite sure how they come up with that argument.

The Darian scheme forced Scotland to accept the Act of Union due to being almost bankrupted by the attempts. The English did not help either as they withdrew their investment and support so as to not incur the wrath of the Spanish, which would have been a massive no no considering they were at war with France at the time. King William also instructed that no support be granted from America either for the same reasons. Which in itself is ironically hypocritical since William's own crown was secured with the help of Scottish troops at the Battle of the Boyne.

As someone once said "The British empire was built with the lives of Scottish, Irish and Welsh troops on the front lines while it was governed from Westminster and Buckingham"

[a_very_ex_STAB]

As someone once said "The British empire was built with the lives of Scottish, Irish and Welsh troops on the front lines while it was governed from Westminster and Buckingham"

That's a common whinge from the Celtic fringe which seems implausible to me give that the Scots, Welsh and Irish have always been much less numerous than the English. Yes they were involved but I doubt they were conscripted, and although at times they may well have been a higher proportion of them in the Army compared to their percentages in the total population but that doesn't mean they made up an absolute majority in the Army. At any rate it was the Navy that really made the running in the old British Empire and I doubt believe the Scots, Welsh and Irish were overrepresented there. The whinge continues today with ppl claiming there is Scottish 'overrepresentation' in the ranks when in fact the English Midlands are the most overrepresented region in the British Army.

[CMNot]

As someone once said "The British empire was built with the lives of Scottish, Irish and Welsh troops on the front lines while it was governed from Westminster and Buckingham"

What a monumentally misguided crock of ****.

[Toddy1]

hahah I knew that would get a rise from you two, I never said I agreed with the statement just that someone once said it. I know that there was a majority English troops on all fronts, Crimean, Napoleonic, Zulu, Boer, WWI, WWII etc etc simply by way of a much larger population.

The same bull**** can be attributed to the statement that the ANZAC's were dying at Gallipoli while the English sat on the beach and drank tea, not many people realise that the British army lost more men than anyone out of the allies at Gallipoli...a fact that has been lost to the mists of time with some historians

[CMNot]

Ah, Gallipolli, more epic Mel Gibson history.

[Niall]

Ah, Gallipolli, more epic Mel Gibson history.


It is a shame Mel Gibson hates the English so much :P

[CMNot]

And Jews.

And I imagine protestants too.

[Toddy1]

that's alright most of Australia hates him as well. You can imagine my absolute disgust though that upon visiting the Wallace monument when I was back home in 2006 there at the bottom of the hill, where all the tourist busses stop is your first image of William Wallace....a ****ing carving of Mel Gibson with FREEDOM carved into the bottom. Poor old William must be turning in his grave at the site....it's a ****ing sham