Israel Immigrant Problem?

[Ordie]

Does Israel Have an Immigrant Problem?
Thousands are flocking to the Jewish state for work. But increasingly, they are becoming a political football.

BY EVAN R. GOLDSTEIN | JANUARY 25, 2010

It's Saturday night in Tel Aviv, and a crowd of Filipino women make their way down Neve Sha'anan Street, a charmless pedestrian arcade lined with money-changers, calling-card centers, Africans selling stolen, bootlegged, or junk merchandise, and storefront bars where patrons lounge around plastic tables covered in empty beer bottles. The women, dressed in tight jeans, miniskirts, and slinky tops, walk past the "Kingdom of Pork" butcher shop and into the massive, grime-encrusted central bus station. Their destination is the Bahay Kubu, a dance club located on the third level. Tonight is the Ms. Filipino-Israel beauty pageant, an annual event hosted by Charlene, a bashful and giggly transvestite. During the week, Charlene is James, a nursing-home employee and one of hundreds of thousands of foreign workers in Israel.

The figures are fuzzy and politically contested, but the most reliable estimates place the number of such workers around 300,000. There are an additional 20,000 Africans -- primarily Eritreans and Sudanese -- who claim to be refugees from persecution. The overwhelming majority of foreign workers are like James: economic migrants from China, India, Nepal, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Thailand, and elsewhere who arrived in Israel on temporary visas to take jobs in the agriculture and construction industries or as caregivers for the elderly. According to the Israeli government, 30 percent of foreign workers are in the country illegally. Eighty percent of the foreign population lives in south Tel Aviv, crammed into slouching tenements near the central bus station.

The presence of a large, non-Jewish population in the Jewish state stirs great unease. In November, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz blamed foreign workers for a rise in unemployment and a "widening of social gaps"; the mayor of Eilat, Meir Yitzhak Halevi, recently called them a "burden on the welfare authorities." He added: "They consume alcohol and have introduced cases of severe violence." The situation is routinely described in the media as a ticking social time bomb. The military estimates that as many as 1 million Africans could try to cross into Israel (though the Office of the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees puts the number at 45,000).

Responding to such concerns, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced on Jan. 10 that Israel will build two fences along the Egyptian border -- one around Eilat, the other near Gaza -- in the hope of staunching the flow of "infiltrators and terrorists." Construction is expected to take several years, and the fence will be entirely on Israeli territory. Netanyahu also directed the Justice Ministry to formulate a plan to sanction businesses that hire illegal immigrants. "This is a strategic decision to ensure the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel," Netanyahu said. "Israel will remain open to war refugees but we cannot allow thousands of illegal workers to infiltrate into Israel via the southern border and flood our country." There is reason to be skeptical. For two decades, Israeli policy toward foreign workers and refugees, has been widely regarded as a complete failure.

Foreign workers first arrived in Israel in the late 1980s to address a sudden labor shortage caused by the outbreak of the first Intifada. Following the Six Day War in 1967, Israel issued work permits to Palestinians for menial, low-wage jobs, primarily in construction and agriculture. By 1987, the year the Intifada began, Palestinians comprised nearly 8 percent of the Israeli labor force. The uprising, which prevented Palestinians from traveling back and forth to jobs inside Israel, threw the economy into crisis. In response, the Israeli government began to import workers from abroad. By 2000, foreign workers comprised 12 percent of the Israeli workforce.

"From the government's perspective, there was a closed circle, with clear procedures and rules dictating each workers' entry and exit," Israel Drori told me when I visited his spartan, linoleum-tiled office at Tel Aviv University, where he is a professor of business. The number of foreign workers was supposed to rise and fall according to supply and demand, Drori explained, but the government proved unable or unwilling to effectively regulate the process -- a history he recounts in detail in his book, Foreign Workers in Israel. Many workers fell into the illegal labor market. Others arrive on tourist visas and never leave. Exploitation is rampant. "The state has been completely incompetent," Drori said. "It is really a disgrace." And whereas Palestinians went home to Gaza or the West Bank at the end of the day, the foreign workers -- like in Europe, like in the United States -- began to settle down.

"This fence has nothing to do with foreign workers," Yohannes Bayu told me in a telephone interview. "Those crossing the Egyptian border aren't foreign workers; they are asylum-seekers." Bayu is executive director of the African Refugee Development Center, an Israeli NGO that advocates for the rights of asylum-seekers.

The main problem, Bayu believes, is that Israel refuses to clarify who is a refugee, even though it is obligated to do so as a signatory to the 1951 U.N. Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. But as of last year, according to Bayu, only 180 asylum-seekers were officially recognized by the Israeli government as refugees. The rest wait in limbo. The fence will, however, block the ability of refugees to escape from Egypt. "The treatment in Egypt is harsh and inhumane. If someone is caught by the Egyptians on the border, they will be imprisoned, tortured, or killed," Bayu told me matter-of-factly. "I recognize Israel as a Jewish state," he continued, "but Israel is also part of the world community and it has an obligation to deal with refugees."

Late last week, before a tour of the border area with Egypt, Netanyahu warned that a "surge of refugees ... are causing socioeconomic and cultural damage" that threatens to turn Israel into a Third World country. The problem, Netanyahu explained, "is the very success of our economy, which today is included among the developed economies around the world and has emerged out of this crisis better than most countries. Some of the countries and economies in our proximity are suffering great hardships, which in turn is increasing our attractiveness and is starting to draw populations from less-developed countries." The result, he said, is that foreign workers are taking the jobs of the "weakest Israelis." But as the Hotline for Migrant Workers, an Israeli NGO, points out, only 3,000 Africans came into Israel from Egypt last year. During that same period, Netanyahu's government issued 120,000 visas to foreign workers. The proposed fence, in other words, will do little to benefit unemployed Israelis if the government continues to acquiesce to employer demands for more and more cheap labor.

"The government is worried about the Jewishness of the state, so it will never give citizenship to a large number of foreign workers," Drori told me. "But this country needs menial laborers, so the foreign workers are here to stay. The question is how to regulate their presence with a greater sense of morality."


Source:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/25/does_israel_have_an_immigrant_problem?print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page=full

[BMUS]

Yeah yeah yeah. God bless America, the worlds most tolerant nation. Boo Israel, boo Europe. Ooh say can you see.... yada yada yada. We get it.

[gaijinsamurai]

When I lived in Japan, I had a couple of good Israeli friends, who were married. The husband was a non-Jewish immigrant from Eritrea. He served in the IDF as a paratrooper, married an Israeli, and is a loyal, productive citizen.

[dracon49]

Organizations for "human rights" want to make Israel Sudan or Eritrea 2...we need to stop this immigration and the ones that are illegal to send them back by planes and ofcourse to make sure that ppl that employ them will get punished hard.

[Ordie]

Israel's prosperity attracts people (Jews and non-Jews).
They settle down, invest, and start families.
And their children will grow up being Hebrew Speaking Israelis.

Being Jewish is a question for the Rabbi to decide.

[dracon49]

Israel is a Jewish state...we need to make sure that we are a big majority here.

[NimDod]

They settle down, invest, and start families.

But the first thing they do in Israel is to break it's law, by infiltrating it illigally.
Israel does not have an immigrant proble - it has, like many countries which are prosperous compared to their area, an illigal immigrants problem.

[RoyB]

Israel's immigrants problem is no different than any other country immigrants problem.
Illegal immigrants are called 'illegal' for a reason. While legal foreign workers need to learn to leave when they are supposed to leave, without 'settling down' and having sprouts.

[Ordie]

Does a non Jew become an Israeli citizen by being born in Israel?
If so, are they conscripted into the IDF or have the option to volunteer?

Can a non Jew become Prime Minister of Israel?

Just asking.....

[Octavariable]

Does a non Jew become an Israeli citizen by being born in Israel?
If so, are they conscripted into the IDF or have the option to volunteer?

Can a non Jew become Prime Minister of Israel?
Just asking.....

All these questions have nothing to do with being Jewish or not, your question should have been like this:
Does a non Israeli become an Israeli by being born in Israel? (yes)
If so.. (yes, they are conscripted, and they can volunteer)
Can a non Israeli become PM? (No) And as for this original question, are you really that thick or are you just pretending. and just for the sake of not to be sounding condescending, yes, a non Jew can. Unfortunately for him, he won't, until he'll be chairman of the party getting the majority of votes, and then succeeding in creating a coalition of more than half of the Parliament members. Now, considering non-Jews are a minority, do the maths yourself.

[GiladS]

Does a non Jew become an Israeli citizen by being born in Israel?


No, Israeli citizenship passes according to 'jus sanguinis', but there have been plenty of exceptions.


so, are they conscripted into the IDF or have the option to volunteer?


Only Jews, Druze and Circassians are conscripted while the rest have the option of volunteering.


Can a non Jew become Prime Minister of Israel?


There isn't any law that states that a non-Jew can't become Israel's PM AFAIK so theoretically speaking the answer would be yes.

[OrangeWolf]

Can a non Israeli become PM? (No) And as for this original question, are you really that thick or are you just pretending. and just for the sake of not to be sounding condescending, yes, a non Jew can. Unfortunately for him, he won't, until he'll be chairman of the party getting the majority of votes, and then succeeding in creating a coalition of more than half of the Parliament members. Now, considering non-Jews are a minority, do the maths yourself.

Yeah, btw this:

Majalli Wahabi, Israeli Druze

He holds the positions of Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, and briefly became Israel's Acting President due to Moshe Katzav's leave of absence and Dalia Itzik's trip abroad in February 2007, making him the first non-Jew to act as Israel's head of state.

So yes non-Jews can (become prime-minister or president), it's just not very likely (since Jews are a significant majority in Israel). Like it isn't very likely to see a Dutch prime minister who is Moroccan, or a German president who is Turkish.

Now I hope you (not you Octavaria :-) ) asked this as a sincere question, and not just to pick on Israeli society such as many of you topics do.

[Ssandro]

For security reasons, Israel desperately needs to increase its (non-muslim) population. I don't understand why they can't convert these immigrants to the religion judaism? And also why they can't convert more christian people living in other countries, and then encourage them to immigrate. I understand that they couldn't convert palestinians without upsetting the muslim authorities

[GiladS]

For security reasons, Israel desperately needs to increase its (non-muslim) population. I don't understand why they can't convert these immigrants to the religion judaism? And also why they can't convert more christian people living in other countries, and then encourage them to immigrate. I understand that they couldn't convert palestinians without upsetting the muslim authorities.

Ehm, shouldn't the people want to convert to Judiasm first?

I'm still unsure if this was actually a serious post.

[F16]

I have a friend living in Israel, he says there is nothing free down there, if you want to live well and comfortable, you need to work hard, or to come in with decent amout of money to invest or set up a business, he also said that the taxes in Israel are very high and the state takes part of your hard-earned money as a tax, are all those facts still attractive for immigrants who wants to settle down there?

[GiladS]

I have a friend living in Israel, he says there is nothing free down there, if you want to live well and comfortable, you need to work hard, or to come in with decent amout of money to invest or set up a business, he also said that the taxes in Israel are very high and the state takes part of your hard-earned money as a tax, are all those facts still attractive for immigrants who wants to settle down there?

The title of this thread is misleading, it isn't about immigrants but about illigal immigrants.

Illigal immigrants don't have to worry about taxes as they would do undeclared work... after all, the fact that they live and work here is against the law as it is.

[Ordie]

The title of this thread is misleading, it isn't about immigrants but about illigal immigrants.

Illigal immigrants don't have to worry about taxes as they would do undeclared work... after all, the fact that they live and work here is against the law as it is.

Isn't there a value added or sales taxes associated with the purchases of goods and services? or the collection of property taxes through rents?

[Ordie]

So yes non-Jews can (become prime-minister or president), it's just not very likely (since Jews are a significant majority in Israel). Like it isn't very likely to see a Dutch prime minister who is Moroccan, or a German president who is Turkish.

Thanks.

I guess if Peru elected a president of Japanese origin, then anything is possible.

[GiladS]

Isn't there a value added or sales taxes associated with the purchases of goods and services? or the collection of property taxes through rents?


Yes there is, but income tax is the main issue when talking about taxes in Israel... at least for the average joe.

[GiladS]

Thanks.

I guess if Peru elected a president of Japanese origin, then anything is possible.

Peru isn't like Israel or like most developed democracies for that matter...

[F16]

How much does earn an average adult person in Israel, say, an IT specialist, or a waitress, that info would give me more precise overview of the issue.

[Ssandro]

Ehm, shouldn't the people want to convert to Judiasm first?

I'm still unsure if this was actually a serious post.
It is not quantum mechanics
1. Almost all existing immigrants will be happy to convert if it helps them to fit in with their new country. If they're useful/legal immigrants, they should be encouraged to voluntarily convert to a liberal version of the religion.
2. Each year, millions of people around the world voluntarily convert to Islamic, Christian, Buddhist religions. If the religion Judaism established similar programs or laws to convert people to (a liberal government approved version of) their religion overseas, Israel would have a larger and more easily assimilable immigrant base. It would also create a larger support base.
3. Increasing the levels of legal immigration would reduce illegal immigration (it reduces the demand for cheap labour).
4. Encouraging more Israeli Arabs to convert would help to integrate more of them into the majority society, although this would also upset Muslim authorities.

[gaijinsamurai]

It is not quantum mechanics
(i) Almost all existing immigrants will be happy to convert if it helps them to fit in with their new country. If they're useful/legal immigrants, they should be encouraged to voluntarily convert to a liberal version of the religion.
(ii) Each year, millions of people around the world voluntarily convert to Islamic, Christian, Buddhist religions. If the religion Judaism established similar programs or laws to convert people (only in this case to a liberal and modern version) of their religion overseas, Israel would have a larger and more easily assimilable immigrant base. It would also create a larger support base. Increasing the levels of legal immigration reduces illegal immigration (it reduces the demand for cheap labour).
(iii) Encouraging more Israeli Arabs to convert would help to integrate more of them into the majority society, although this would also upset Muslim authorities.

I don't know if you've ever spent any time in the Middle East, but "converting" is something that simply does not happen, except in extremely rare occasions. Unlike a lot of Westerners, much of a Middle Easterner's identity revolves around their religion. Expecting a lot of Christians and Muslims to suddenly become "Jewish" is preposterous.

[Ssandro]

I don't know if you've ever spent any time in the Middle East, but "converting" is something that simply does not happen, except in extremely rare occasions. Unlike a lot of Westerners, much of a Middle Easterner's identity revolves around their religion. Expecting a lot of Christians and Muslims to suddenly become "Jewish" is preposterous. People are willing to convert to religions if they believe in them, but also if it helps them get on in society. To take an example of the former, Michelle Obama's cousin converted to Judaism, despite being African American. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1019188.html There's no reason why the number of conversions can't be increased and liberalised, within Israel and also overseas. Israel has a high proportion of non-Jewish immigrants. The majority of these immigrants would be willing to convert, if it helped them integrate. The same might be true of Israeli Arabs. The government could improve their position by creating programs to encourage conversion to a modern and liberal version of the religion.

Israel is a unique case. Historically Zionism was a secular ideology, but one which was ironically dependent on a religious identity (into which one can be converted). Increasing the number of people who take on that religious identity increases the position of the country, in a way which doesn't work for any other country (other countries are not ideological in the same way).

[Ordie]

Immigration is a sign of a healthy economy and civil society.

[Ordie]

People are willing to convert to religions if they believe in them, but also if it helps them get on in society.

A co-worker of mine is an American reformed Jewish convert.
He is somewhat fluent in Hebrew and wants to become an Israeli citizen.
Unfortunately he cannot sice the government only recognizes Orthodox converts.

[GiladS]

It is not quantum mechanics
1. Almost all existing immigrants will be happy to convert if it helps them to fit in with their new country. If they're useful/legal immigrants, they should be encouraged to voluntarily convert to a liberal version of the religion.


There's no such thing as a "liberal version".

In Israel only Orthodox conversion is recognized.

And lets just for the sake of the argument say that hundreds of thousands will convert for the sole purporse of improving their economic situation and quality of life.... ever heard of Anusim? It will be the same, people having a certificate saying they are Jewish but still going to Church.



Each year, millions of people around the world voluntarily convert to Islamic, Christian, Buddhist religions.


Maybe because they actually believe in these religions and not just to get better pay and social benefits?


If the religion Judaism established similar programs or laws to convert people to (a liberal government approved version of) their religion overseas, Israel would have a larger and more easily assimilable immigrant base. It would also create a larger support base.


I see no reason to change the Orthodox conversion process, it is the way it is because it's meant to accept only those who trully wish to bind their fate with that of the Jewish people.


Encouraging more Israeli Arabs to convert would help to integrate more of them into the majority society, although this would also upset Muslim authorities.

Mate, it's clear you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Be my guess and go to Wadi Ara and suggest this to the local population... hopefully the lynch will only amount to a severe beating.

[Holmes85]

Doesn't the issue of illegal immigration also suggest that there is a security risk, since if illegal immigrants can make it through the border this easily, then it should be easy for a terrorist organization to send members through the borders.

[gaijinsamurai]

Mate, it's clear you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Be my guess and go to Wadi Ara and suggest this to the local population... hopefully the lynch will only amount to a severe beating.

x2. My bet is that 99.9999999999999....% of all Muslims would prefer to be boiled in hot pig fat, rather than become yahudi.

[gaijinsamurai]

....and besides, do you really think the Israeli Government would recognize mass conversions of goyim who only want to become "Jewish" in a superficial sense, to reap economic benefits?

[Ordie]

Doesn't the issue of illegal immigration also suggest that there is a security risk, since if illegal immigrants can make it through the border this easily, then it should be easy for a terrorist organization to send members through the borders.

My guess is that many get to Israel through legal means (Pilgrims, Tourist, Backpakers, Temp workers) and overstay thier visa limits.
They wouldn't be there unless local Israelis are willing to hire them.

[RoyB]

Judaism is not like Christianity or Islam.. It has never sought to 'distribute' its beliefs.
Besides.. Converting to Judaism is an extremely complicated process with much effort from the authority in charge to bring you down.

[ting]

Judaism is not like Christianity or Islam.. It has never sought to 'distribute' its beliefs.
Besides.. Converting to Judaism is an extremely complicated process with much effort from the authority in charge to bring you down.

If I were to convert to Judaism. Would I have to chop off my wiener?

[OrangeWolf]

If I were to convert to Judaism. Would I have to chop off my wiener?

Yeah. But some chicks dig it.

[Kaplanr]

If I were to convert to Judaism. Would I have to chop off my wiener?

Hell no, we'll do it for you.

You know what Abraham said when he heard God's terms for getting the covenant? "So let me get this straight. They get all the oil, and we get to chop off our shlongs?"

[ting]

Yeah. But some chicks dig it.

So I'm guessing platonic love is real big in Judaism. I knew you guys were spiritual, but wow I'm impressed.:lol:


Hell no, we'll do it for you.

You know what Abraham said when he heard God's terms for getting the covenant? "So let me get this straight. They get all the oil, and we get to chop off our shlongs?"

rofl Damn, thats a raw deal.:lol:

[RoyB]

Well, you have to give up a part of yourself in order to be a member of the chosen people. Literally.

[Stainless Steel Rat]

You know what Abraham said when he heard God's terms for getting the covenant? "So let me get this straight. They get all the oil, and we get to chop off our shlongs?"
rofl

I always wondered that if the Hebrews were God's Chosen People, exactly what had he chosen them for?

Ahem, on to the topic at hand. Israel has a problem, and (illegal) immigration is just one part of it.

As for the illegals, if you have an economy that is much more prosperous than others, you will attact immigrants (legal or not) whether you want them (the USA for most of the 1800's) or not (the USA today).

On conversions, history has tended to confirm that Judaism is not a faith of massive conversions; or maybe they just had the bad luck not to co-opt an Empire (as Christianity did with Rome) or emerge at a time ripe for making their own Empire (Islam). Whatever the reason, mass conversions to Judaism don't seem to be in the cards.

The bigger issue is that Israel is supposed to be the 'Jewish Homeland', but can the population of Jews keep it viable without substantial non-Jewish involvement that could make the Jewish population a minority presence in their own state? (I am speaking in the long run, 40-50 years from now, not next Tuesday). THAT is the question yet to be decided.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

[gazell]

Well, you have to give up a part of yourself in order to be a member of the chosen people. Literally.

What are the chosen people, literally?

[ting]

Well, you have to give up a part of yourself in order to be a member of the chosen people. Literally.

That part is too big, I'm gonna check out Buddhism.;-)

[NimDod]

How much does earn an average adult person in Israel, say, an IT specialist, or a waitress, that info would give me more precise overview of the issue.

That depends on what kind of IT specialist were talking about.
for example, a C++ programmer earns between 14,000 to 17,000 NIS (New Israeli Shekels) per month in his early years, 17k-21k when he gains experience, and a senior programmer earns between 21k to 26k.
a JAVA developer earns less than him, and a .NET developer earns even less.
a waitress would earn minimum wage (3850 NIS, about 1000$ per month) + tips in most cases, I think.
the average wage in Israel today is 7836 NIS per month, about 1808$.

[NimDod]

Doesn't the issue of illegal immigration also suggest that there is a security risk, since if illegal immigrants can make it through the border this easily, then it should be easy for a terrorist organization to send members through the borders.

That's precisely what my Company Commander and Battalion Commander told us when I was in reserves duty on the Egyptian boarder a few months ago.

The illigal immigrants are not trying to smuggle in through the border - they just cross it and wait of the main access road to our outpost, waiting for the patrol to pick them up.
Every morning, when I was in guard duty on the tower observering the boarder, looking at the group of 5-10 immigrants sitting on that road, I thought to myself exactlly that - why wouldnt one of them be a bomber of just armed?

I wish brought my camera with me back then - the potoes photo s from there would probebly seem so surreal to you guys...

[Moledet]

Keep all the refugees that came from Sudan and Eritrea, kick out the rest that came here to find a better work.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

I have read about a story in the somali press about some Somalis being shot by Egyptian border guards while trying to cross into Israel.My immediate reaction was "wtf? Have these people no shame ?"j/k .Turns out there's an obscur clan ,the kind of people you know they're out there but you never meet who claim links with the Israelis although they're now muslims. Edit : Seeking confirmation of the clan affiliation of the individual whose story I have. edited ,although from a minority clan not a 100 perc sure if he is one of the ones who calim the bani israel.

[dracon49]

Are you really from Somalia? You have a lot of mess in your country no(your government if i don't have a mistake doesn't control the country and terrorists groups celebrate like in Lebanon)?

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Somalia my country? The somali government my government ?Hahahaha... Don't get offended dracon49.

[dracon49]

LOL Somalia i meant and it doesn't have a government and i got confused i thought you are from Somalia because of your name lol...sorry:)

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Sorry about the off topic to everyone . Dracon no1/ I am Somali but the central gov hasn't had any kind of control on us since 1991. no2/ Joking with somebody is form of affection in our wierd culture ,don't get offended by things I say ,I do not hate Israel.

[Climber]

Thanks.

I guess if Peru elected a president of Japanese origin, then anything is possible.

I am sorry Ordie but you are way off.

It's like saying the same about Menem here.

Orange Wolf gave you an example of countries with ethnic majorities who are in control of their states, regardless of immigrants.

Peru, have an ethnic majority, but they aren't in control, they were subjugated by the immigrants, from western Europe, china and Japan, mostly, So Fujimori example is not a good one.

[dracon49]

So basically you can do whatever you want in Somalia lol even in Lebanon it's not like that:) I also read that Somali terrorists fought with Hezbollah 2006(and yes, its off the topic so will keep talk only on the issue)and yes, if i don't have a mistake Somalis come to here but most of them are from Sudan and Eritrea.

[F16]

the average wage in Israel today is 7836 NIS per month, about 1808$.

Is it before taxes or after taxes?

[NimDod]

Is it before taxes or after taxes?

Before taxes.

[F16]

Before taxes.
got that, anyway, thanks a lot for a useful information on the issue!

[Kaplanr]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?173246-Proposed-US-Army-Dress-Uniforms&p=4734415&viewfull=1#post4734415
Proof that that Oride has his own opinions, and that not everything Ordie posts is mindless anti-Israel blather.

[gazell]

That part is too big, I'm gonna check out Buddhism.;-)


coward:lol::lol: