China warns U.S. of detrimental effect of meeting Dalai Lama [Archive]

View Full Version : China warns U.S. of detrimental effect of meeting Dalai Lama

Pages : [1] 2

iam980

02-01-2010, 10:39 PM

Chinese central gov't holds press conference on talks with Dalai Lama envoys

English.news.cn (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/) 2010-02-02 10:12:04 http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/feedback.gif (english@xinhuanet.com)Feedback (english@xinhuanet.com)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/dayin.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:doPrint%28%29;)Printhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/rss.gif (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)RSS (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t+.gif (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-02/02/c_13159894.htm#)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t-.gif (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-02/02/c_13159894.htm#) BEIJING, Feb. 2 (Xinhua) -- China's State Council Information Office held a press conference Tuesday morning to brief media on the latest talks between central government officials and private representatives of the Dalai Lama.
Zhu Weiqun, executive deputy head of the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, is expected to talk about the meeting and answer reporters' questions at the press conference, which started at 10:00 a.m..
Du Qinglin, vice chairman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, met with the Dalai Lama's private representatives, Lodi Gyari and Kelsang Gyaltsen, last week in Beijing.

http://cpc.people.com.cn/

iam980

02-01-2010, 10:54 PM

107383China warns U.S. of detrimental effect of meeting Dalai Lama

English.news.cn (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/) 2010-02-02 11:24:08 http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/feedback.gif (english@xinhuanet.com)Feedback (english@xinhuanet.com)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/dayin.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:doPrint%28%29;)Printhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/rss.gif (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)RSS (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t+.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t-.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#) BEIJING, Feb. 2 (Xinhua) -- A senior Chinese official Tuesday warned of serious damage to Sino-U.S. relations if U.S. leaders were to meet with the Dalai Lama, saying the move would "harm others but bring no profit to itself either."
The U.S. side would violate international rules by making such a decision, said Zhu Weiqun, executive vice minister of the United Front Work Department (UFWD) of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, at a press conference.
Such a move would be both irrational and harmful, he said. "If a country decides to do so, we will take necessary measures to help them realize this."

2495

02-01-2010, 10:58 PM

The U.S. side would violate international rules by making such a decision, said Zhu Weiqun, executive vice minister of the United Front Work Department (UFWD) of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee

Yeah - like killing Tibetans crossing the mountains isn't breaking a few international rules. China's Government should have a few ribs removed and go blow itself. Cheeky bastards are full of threats these days.

vinny_121_ND

02-01-2010, 11:02 PM

Yeah - like killing Tibetans crossing the mountains isn't breaking a few international rules. China's Government should have a few ribs removed and go blow itself. Cheeky bastards are full of threats these days.

Good response. What's going to happen if the US meets him? Economic sanctions?

Valkyries

02-01-2010, 11:04 PM

how again are we going to "violate international rules" by meeting with the Dalai Lama?

Panchito12

02-01-2010, 11:21 PM

Next Headline: China Looses Face Again As US Leaders Welcome Dalai Lama

2495

02-01-2010, 11:26 PM

Good response. What's going to happen if the US meets him? Economic sanctions?

Probably send Obama a nasty letter.

In all honesty I am getting sick and tired of all this Chinese strutting bvll**** they are coming out with. The international community seems to have a new up and coming bully on the block. Screw them - sell weapons to taiwan, meet the dai lama and fight Chinese influence in Africa and their power mad grasp for Antartica and its resources.

Ordie

02-01-2010, 11:36 PM

If China didn't diplomatically snubbed President Obama in the past year, they wouldn't had made such ****ouncements.

plato

02-01-2010, 11:38 PM

Does anyone know if this meeting has been confirmed or not? thanks!

dttk0009

02-01-2010, 11:41 PM

I don't see why they care. The meeting is not going to actually change anything.

Eventine

02-02-2010, 12:22 AM

A diplomatic confrontation with the US would be most beneficial for the CCP in this transitional phase between the 4th and 5th generation of leaders. A truly masterful way to divert attention from domestic affairs. The same is probably true of Obama, as well - policies are not working out, so what better way to deflect criticism than to pick a fight with China?

I love how modern governments manipulate the public. They really know how to stoke that fire. At the same time, I worry about whether this is really all some game played by the newly minted global elite to keep us all in line.

Flagg

02-02-2010, 12:42 AM

Probably send Obama a nasty letter.

In all honesty I am getting sick and tired of all this Chinese strutting bvll**** they are coming out with. The international community seems to have a new up and coming bully on the block. Screw them - sell weapons to taiwan, meet the dai lama and fight Chinese influence in Africa and their power mad grasp for Antartica and its resources.

Or maybe they start using more financial leverage against the US.

Right now the US needs China to keep buying T-Bills.......but China needs the US to keep consuming until it can kickstart enough domestic and regional consumption to offset a declining US standard of living.

It's like MAD...but instead of nukes.....it's T-bills and derivatives.......and far more likely to be used as weapons than nukes.

Your perspective is pretty slanted...as it is for most people.

The US may have military force projection dominance that is unequalled......but who's footing the bill.

deagle

02-02-2010, 01:04 AM

well, what if China meets ahjiminadad then ?

meeting him wont gain anything, but can hurt the already delicate relationship.

TheMiddlePath

02-02-2010, 01:28 AM

I wonder if any Western media will print the entire scribe. Probably not.

Confuse

02-02-2010, 01:44 AM

updates ??? is this press conference a first or there was one last time ?

Sierra10

02-02-2010, 02:31 AM

This is such bull ****. ****ing china pisses me off. All they seem to do is warn the US that they will get angry if they do a particular thing, they need to stop being such hypocrites.

Blue P

02-02-2010, 02:36 AM

if someone still thinks ccp members are still commuists, he must have been drunk in the last 3 decades. :)

skyrock

02-02-2010, 02:39 AM

It works just fine, especially on MPers.

A diplomatic confrontation with the US would be most beneficial for the CCP in this transitional phase between the 4th and 5th generation of leaders. A truly masterful way to divert attention from domestic affairs. The same is probably true of Obama, as well - policies are not working out, so what better way to deflect criticism than to pick a fight with China?

I love how modern governments manipulate the public. They really know how to stoke that fire. At the same time, I worry about whether this is really all some game played by the newly minted global elite to keep us all in line.

Steak-Sauce

02-02-2010, 02:47 AM

how again are we going to "violate international rules" by meeting with the Dalai Lama?

x2. I was about to ask the same question..

ren0312

02-02-2010, 02:51 AM

Good response. What's going to happen if the US meets him? Economic sanctions?

Imagine what all those forex reserves could do to fund La Raza, KKK, Black Panthers, NOI, organized crime, ethnic gangs, and even AQ.

Alfacentori

02-02-2010, 02:58 AM

Imagine what all those forex reserves could do to fund La Raza, KKK, Black Panthers, NOI, organized crime, ethnic gangs, and even AQ.

I doubt China would ever go that far, it has far to much at stake economically and politically in the region and wider world to start that bs, it would also open a floodgate of similar reprisals against China and Chinese interests.
Open conflict (not necessarily military in nature) and competition (as opposed to in secret) is in neithers interest, but China has less political capital around the world/region to throw away in any such event.

Alfa

Panchito12

02-02-2010, 02:59 AM

Imagine what all those forex reserves could do to fund La Raza, KKK, Black Panthers, NOI, organized crime, ethnic gangs, and even AQ.

Immagine what some well-placed $$$ in the Tibetan exile community can do in Tibet, or what a similar amount of $$$ can do for the Uighur. This street is a two-way baby.

dttk0009

02-02-2010, 03:06 AM

Immagine what some well-placed $$$ in the Tibetan exile community can do in Tibet, or what a similar amount of $$$ can do for the Uighur. This street is a two-way baby.
Not really. Neither of those two entities are threats even with money to spend. China has no qualms in using brute and excessive force to subdue local unrests and they're already reputed as 'racist monsters' in a lot of western media sources so what's to lose? Besides, this is already beyond the realm of hypothetical, but just to serve it back:
Imagine if Mexico funded the Texas Secession Movement with billions OH MAN!

Henry's Fork

02-02-2010, 03:08 AM

Whaaaaa whaaaaaa whaaaaaaa
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9839/cutebabycrying.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/i/cutebabycrying.jpg/)

rofl

ren0312

02-02-2010, 03:16 AM

Immagine what some well-placed $$$ in the Tibetan exile community can do in Tibet, or what a similar amount of $$$ can do for the Uighur. This street is a two-way baby.

The Han Chinese outnumber all those other groups 20 to 1, the Chinese military has enough manpower to withstand any war of attrition, while the insurgents do not.

ren0312

02-02-2010, 03:23 AM

The US peace and anti war movement did receive some support from the KGB during the Viet Nam war.

Mr Gently Benevolent

02-02-2010, 04:03 AM

The US peace and anti war movement did receive some support from the KGB during the Viet Nam war.There never ever has been conformation that either the GRU or the KGB provided sucour to the US anti war movement but its a notion encouraged many on the right in the US and a few defectors looking for publishing advances. The main thrust of the GRU anti Veitnam war program was in Europe where it found through well placed journalists an easier route for the dissemination of anti-war propaganda often through Czechoslovak StB agents in Germany.

rkpo

02-02-2010, 04:09 AM

Whaaaaa whaaaaaa whaaaaaaa

rofl

You wouldnt say that if it was your people. I dont know if egomaniacalism is a word but it would suit a lot of how the pro-Chinese posters act here.

Panchito12

02-02-2010, 04:45 AM

The Han Chinese outnumber all those other groups 20 to 1, the Chinese military has enough manpower to withstand any war of attrition, while the insurgents do not.

The Kuomitang Army had more manpower than the CCP/PLA did, but things did not turn out they way they wanted it.

iam980

02-02-2010, 05:34 AM

The link of the video has been monitoring by CNIC

http://www.cctv.com/english/special/01/20100202/102726.shtml

http://www.cctv.com/english/special/01/20100202/102671.shtml

iam980

02-02-2010, 05:36 AM

The link of the video has been monitoring by CNIC

http://www.cctv.com/english/special/...2/102726.shtml (http://www.cctv.com/english/special/01/20100202/102726.shtml)

http://www.cctv.com/english/special/...2/102671.shtml (http://www.cctv.com/english/special/01/20100202/102671.shtml)

Confuse

02-02-2010, 09:58 AM

Immagine what some well-placed $$$ in the Tibetan exile community can do in Tibet, or what a similar amount of $$$ can do for the Uighur. This street is a two-way baby.

it's already been like that for 50 years.. it's been a one way street with the US drive down it, the US doesn't really pull this much with the soviets/today russia because they know they will retaliate in kind and more so the US is more cautious with them, not so with china because of the precedence of non interference stance of chinese foreign policy.. currently i see china trying to change the old precedence and replace it with a more active policy in line with what other stronger powers have done in the past like the US and soviets or europeans.. look at what the US does in regards to china and flip it around to being china towards the US and what would the US do ??

RICHICOQUI

02-02-2010, 10:37 AM

You got to love how the chicoms here like post to their photos and video propaganda like it would convince people here!!rofl

Maitreya

02-02-2010, 10:46 AM

if someone still thinks ccp members are still commuists, he must have been drunk in the last 3 decades. :)

P - Last time I checked:- CCP = Chinese Communist Party
And not = Chinese Capitalist Party,
Which you are implying...

Cheers
M

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 10:48 AM

How's those Chicom sanctions against France for meeting the Dalai Lama going? Sure taught the French didnt they?

Derbedeu

02-02-2010, 11:05 AM

China has been bitching a lot lately. Quite frankly, outside of being undignified, it's also very annoying. They should HTFU.

Blue P

02-02-2010, 11:08 AM

P - Last time I checked:- CCP = Chinese Communist Party
And not = Chinese Capitalist Party,
Which you are implying...

Cheers
M

yea, and eastern germany was called GDR - german democratic republic. it had to be democratic then.

oh, and two germanies merged back together when you were sleeping.

vinny_121_ND

02-02-2010, 11:13 AM

China has been bitching a lot lately. Quite frankly, outside of being undignified, it's also very annoying. They should HTFU.

QFT. I think the US should continue pushing their buttons.

Universal_Soldier

02-02-2010, 11:16 AM

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 11:25 AM

yea, and eastern germany was called GDR - german democratic republic. it had to be democratic then.

oh, and two germanies merged back together when you were sleeping.I'm sorry, could you point out when the PRC renounced Communism? thanks

Confuse

02-02-2010, 11:26 AM

They haven't helped with anything NK, Iran, Astan....yet they keep making all these demands. fuk 'm, I'ld sell B-2 to Taiwan just to piss them off. fukin Chinese cry babies. I'ld, host Delai Lama in the white house for a month.

Those guys are currently mining copper in Astan even as other countries are losing men trying to stabilize that country.

with NK they have helped, with NK, china doesn't have much power as you might think, push it to hard and it will attack the south out of desperation..while they help on NK china gets nothing in return, on iran , china and russia don't like the whole US policy with regime change in the middle east.. in afghanistan as it iraq its a war the US started "you break it you buy" , china is just there to make deals with the governments in the aftermath it has no responsiblity to clean a mess of US own making, especially when it will get nothing in return

Confuse

02-02-2010, 11:27 AM

I'm sorry, could you point out when the PRC renounced Communism? thanks

unofficially after mao died

Blue P

02-02-2010, 11:30 AM

I'm sorry, could you point out when the PRC renounced Communism? thanks

if you look into the current chinese economics model. it's absolutely nothing to do with communism at all. when you see people driving bmw and homeless beggers exist on the same road. you can tell its not even socialism.

Universal_Soldier

02-02-2010, 11:33 AM

with NK they have helped, with NK, china doesn't have much power as you might think, push it to hard and it will attack the south out of desperation..while they help on NK china gets nothing in return, on iran , china and russia don't like the whole US policy with regime change in the middle east.. in afghanistan as it iraq its a war the US started "you break it you buy" , china is just there to make deals with the governments in the aftermath it has no responsiblity to clean a mess of US own making, especially when it will get nothing in return

WTF?? Helped my arse! If China wants NK to give up nukes this hours it will happen. China has all the Power it needs when it comes to NK. NK is pun for China's strategic games in Asia pacific with Japan ( including US presence there) as the main target. So don't BS me on that.

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 11:34 AM

Blue P

02-02-2010, 11:38 AM

WTF?? Helped my arse! If China wants NK to give up nukes this hours it will happen. China has all the Power it needs when it comes to NK. NK is pun for China's strategic games in Asia pacific with Japan ( including US presence there) as the main target. So don't BS me on that.

no, china does not want a nuclear armed north korea at all. noone wants his neighbour to have such weapons. a north korea with strong military capability fits chinese interests. but nuclear weapons are on the forbidden list. have a close look how nationalistic (both) koreans are. then you can tell how stupid to alow them to have any wmd.

Blue P

02-02-2010, 11:50 AM

People in Moscow drove BMW's. The North Korean Dear Leader and his minions have luxuries. People in China under Mao starved and were homeless, so lets not attempt to say the PRC isnt still a Communist One Party system.

Its an old saying

"Dont piss down my neck and tell me it's raining"

maybe you need to find the dictionary to look up the communism first.

and one party or two or more than two doesn't matter whether is communism or not. political system and ideology are quite different terms.

anyway, i cant expect americans who grew up in 60' and 70' to understand. they are brainwashed with 'commie evil' as badly as chinese and russian with 'capitialism evil' at the same age.

btw, send a pm to ordie. he has been china many times. go ask him if the chinese driving expensive cars are mainly politicians or businiessmen.

Maitreya

02-02-2010, 11:59 AM

yea, and eastern germany was called GDR - german democratic republic. it had to be democratic then.

oh, and two germanies merged back together when you were sleeping.

P - If you want to talk about GDR, till the very last moment, they stayed loyal to USSR.
Once glasnost and peristroika brought USSR to point of no return, only then GDR fell.

Hence the merger of GDR with FRG, was in reality a complete takeover of GDR by then FRG.
Also, most importantly, majority of East Germans wanted to be a part of West.

This is not the same case with PRC & ROC. Taiwan is a functioning democracy with a solid GDP
numbers and majority of folks don't want to be absorbed with PRC by force. In essence, they have
a Choice.

So please do all of us a favor on this forum and try not to get mixed up in different continents
and totally different national issues...

V/R
M

Universal_Soldier

02-02-2010, 11:59 AM

no, china does not want a nuclear armed north korea at all. noone wants his neighbour to have such weapons. a north korea with strong military capability fits chinese interests. but nuclear weapons are on the forbidden list. have a close look how nationalistic (both) koreans are. then you can tell how stupid to alow them to have any wmd.

We are already going OT. But I will tell you this, Only China knows exactly what is going on inside NK. And NK is dancing according to their tune in the grand scheme of things in the region. If China wants NK to drop thier Nuke quest, they will and that is a fact.It's also a fact that Kim's regime will collapse without Chinese help.
And Yes China has been annoyingly bitchy lately. They need to STFU.

hskywalker

02-02-2010, 01:20 PM

We are already going OT. But I will tell you this, Only China knows exactly what is going on inside NK. And NK is dancing according to their tune in the grand scheme of things in the region. If China wants NK to drop thier Nuke quest, they will and that is a fact.It's also a fact that Kim's regime will collapse without Chinese help.
And Yes China has been annoyingly bitchy lately. They need to STFU.
King john il's father has a purge against the pro-chinese faction AND the pro-soviet faction. North korea is not a puppet state. China has limited influence in north korea.

Kilgor

02-02-2010, 05:07 PM

http://www.radioaustralianews.net.au/stories/201002/2808456.htm?desktop

The meeting is going ahead, so all aboard the butthurt bus.

China should pay for the massive hacking and industrial espionage brought to light by the google affair. Arms sales and the DL meeting should send a message.

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 05:33 PM

maybe you need to find the dictionary to look up the communism first.

and one party or two or more than two doesn't matter whether is communism or not. political system and ideology are quite different terms.

anyway, i cant expect americans who grew up in 60' and 70' to understand. they are brainwashed with 'commie evil' as badly as chinese and russian with 'capitialism evil' at the same age.

btw, send a pm to ordie. he has been china many times. go ask him if the chinese driving expensive cars are mainly politicians or businiessmen. Save it, Your Quibbling and anyone who can read knows it. You want to belive Communism is some utopia thats fine. Too Many have died trying to get out of such workers paradises.

The PRC constitution says the country is run by the Chinese Communist Party

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Got a problem with that? tell it to them.

Blue P

02-02-2010, 05:37 PM

Save it, Your Quibbling and anyone who can read knows it. You want to belive Communism is some utopia thats fine. Too Many have died trying to get out of such workers paradises.

The PRC constitution says the country is run by the Chinese Communist Party

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Got a problem with that? tell it to them.

anyway, i cant expect americans who grew up in 60' and 70' to understand. they are brainwashed with 'commie evil' as badly as chinese and russian with 'capitialism evil' at the same age.

question answered

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 05:53 PM

No Valid question come forth, just quibbling from an obvious fanboi

Confuse

02-02-2010, 06:19 PM

Save it, Your Quibbling and anyone who can read knows it. You want to belive Communism is some utopia thats fine. Too Many have died trying to get out of such workers paradises.

The PRC constitution says the country is run by the Chinese Communist Party

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Got a problem with that? tell it to them.

I think Blue P point was to say that communism isn't utopia and neither is the system in the US.. to effect both sides are subject to each sides "propaganda" .. I would put it as autocracy under communism is name only, in practice the CCP isn't really communist and barely socialist.. maybe a bunch of ex-communist using both theories of communism and capitalism to retain power

Confuse

02-02-2010, 06:22 PM

We are already going OT. But I will tell you this, Only China knows exactly what is going on inside NK. And NK is dancing according to their tune in the grand scheme of things in the region. If China wants NK to drop thier Nuke quest, they will and that is a fact.It's also a fact that Kim's regime will collapse without Chinese help.
And Yes China has been annoyingly bitchy lately. They need to STFU.

no one has real influence in NK ... if china really wanted to have such power within NK they would have backed a coup by kim jong li's oldest son

LineDoggie

02-02-2010, 06:32 PM

Simple question. If I am a Chinese Citizen in Peking / Beijing and want to run for elective office under a New Political Party(say "AntiCom")

Would I be allowed? If not what Party would I have to be a Member of or get the approval of to run?

Kilgor

02-02-2010, 06:35 PM

no one has real influence in NK ... if china really wanted to have such power within NK they would have backed a coup by kim jong li's oldest son

North Korea is surviving by the handouts in food and oil given by the Chinese.

Blue P

02-02-2010, 07:18 PM

North Korea is surviving by the handouts in food and oil given by the Chinese.

North Korea people is surviving by the handouts in food and oil given by the Chinese.

are you sugguestting that chinese should cut off the basic supply for civilians and starve the whole country to death? and you think you are from a civilized country at the same time?

btw, starvation wouldn't top the nk leadership. back to mid 50', chinese were starving and mao's aura wasn't effected at all.

Simple question. If I am a Chinese Citizen in Peking / Beijing and want to run for elective office under a New Political Party(say "AntiCom")

Would I be allowed? If not what Party would I have to be a Member of or get the approval of to run?

what does that have anything to do with the country's social structure or economics system?

no, no need to answer my questions. your mind is stuck in a dimension before the cold war ended. stay there and good luck.

vinny_121_ND

02-02-2010, 07:28 PM

Confuse

02-02-2010, 07:28 PM

North Korea people is surviving by the handouts in food and oil given by the Chinese.

are you sugguestting that chinese should cut off the basic supply for civilians and starve the whole country to death? and you think you are from a civilized country at the same time?

btw, starvation wouldn't top the nk leadership. back to mid 50', chinese were starving and mao's aura wasn't effected at all.

what does that have anything to do with the country's social structure or economics system?

no, no need to answer my questions. your mind is stuck in a dimension before the cold war ended. stay there and good luck.

The problem is that most people think the NK will back down if china stops supplies... this isn't the case.. it could also just as likely blow up and attack everyone around it china included... the only one sitting pretty and won't suffer much blowback is on the other side of the pacific, while china, SK, russia, and to a lesser extent japan will be left to pickup the pieces and foot the bills... oh wait, that does work out great for the US, potential rivals bogged down ..Hmmmm

Blue P

02-02-2010, 07:36 PM

The problem is that most people think the NK will back down if china stops supplies... this isn't the case.. it could also just as likely blow up and attack everyone around it china included... the only one sitting pretty and won't suffer much blowback is on the other side of the pacific, while china, SK, russia, and to a lesser extent japan will be left to pickup the pieces and foot the bills... oh wait, that does work out great for the US, potential rivals bogged down ..Hmmmm

well, if japanese start remarment, it will cause a lot trouble for us. as soon as the japanese feel confident with their force, their goverment will start expel usn. and you have a united korea which is very nationalistic and aint really a big fan of the us (remember the amercian beef protest?) guess they will like the marines on their soil?

so, actually, keeping kim in place actually fits amercian interest. but he should be quiet and not to reach out for nukes. kim's collapes will not benifit the states in the view of long term.

ren0312

02-02-2010, 11:42 PM

QFT. I think the US should continue pushing their buttons.

But not before the Grand Fleet is ready to sail out of Scapa Flow.

TheMiddlePath

02-03-2010, 01:12 AM

China has been bitching a lot lately. Quite frankly, outside of being undignified, it's also very annoying. They should HTFU.

About time the West is on the receiving end.
Yes, it is annoying too when the West bitch about China.

Clear_blues

02-03-2010, 01:14 AM

The problem is that most people think the NK will back down if china stops supplies... this isn't the case.. it could also just as likely blow up and attack everyone around it china included... the only one sitting pretty and won't suffer much blowback is on the other side of the pacific, while china, SK, Russia, and to a lesser extent japan will be left to pickup the pieces and foot the bills... oh wait, that does work out great for the US, potential rivals bogged down ..Hmmmm I can tell you right now that the countrie footing the greatest share of the butcher bill would be the United States and South Korea, if North Korea attacked and other countries responded. Russia doesn't even border Korea for one, China couldn't really care less, and Japan is across the sea-protected by the U.S NAvy. North Korea wouldn't be able to get much further from the coastline,plain and simple.

Clear_blues

02-03-2010, 01:15 AM

well, if japanese start remarment, it will cause a lot trouble for us. as soon as the japanese feel confident with their force, their goverment will start expel usn. and you have a united korea which is very nationalistic and aint really a big fan of the us (remember the amercian beef protest?) guess they will like the marines on their soil?

so, actually, keeping kim in place actually fits amercian interest. but he should be quiet and not to reach out for nukes. kim's collapes will not benifit the states in the view of long term.
guess what sunshine?Wrong thread.
damn I'm cranky, must be lack of nicotine.

TheMiddlePath

02-03-2010, 01:38 AM

how again are we going to "violate international rules" by meeting with the Dalai Lama?

Violate the norms of international relationship.
Dalai Lama is head of the Tibetan Government in exile. If US says it does not support Tibet independence why do you keep meeting and keep funding a representative of a Government in exile ?

I understand that in US it is against the law for a Politician to be funded by a foreign Government. People has gone to jail for doing that.
But somehow if US interest is not affect, it's OK ????
If US does not care about China's interest, why should China care about US's interest ?
Perhaps an explanation would be most appreciated.

LineDoggie

02-03-2010, 06:18 AM

But not before the Grand Fleet is ready to sail out of Scapa Flow.Except this isnt 1939, and the US Navy isnt bottled into a small harbor, not to mention the PLAN doesnt have subs in the same capability of the Los Angeles class.

Thank you for playing PRC PAO, your home version game is on the way

LineDoggie

02-03-2010, 06:27 AM

Violate the norms of international relationship.
Dalai Lama is head of the Tibetan Government in exile. If US says it does not support Tibet independence why do you keep meeting and keep funding a representative of a Government in exile ?

I understand that in US it is against the law for a Politician to be funded by a foreign Government. People has gone to jail for doing that.
But somehow if US interest is not affect, it's OK ????
If US does not care about China's interest, why should China care about US's interest ?
Perhaps an explanation would be most appreciated.

You wouldnt care nor accept any explanation that doesnt fit your perceptions anyway.

I would point out that besides as you say being the leader of the Tibetan Government in Exile, the Lama is also a spritual leader of Millions, and the US meets with Spiritual leaders all the time, as do many countries leadership

What version of the "Norms" of International Relationship? the PRC's?

For someone who isnt in China, you as usual seem very fanboi-st towards them. Maybe the question you should ask is are you a Chinese citizen of the PRC or a Malaysian Citizen? You seem more interested in the PRC's welfare than your Country, why is that?

ren0312

02-03-2010, 07:54 PM

Except this isnt 1939, and the US Navy isnt bottled into a small harbor, not to mention the PLAN doesnt have subs in the same capability of the Los Angeles class.

Thank you for playing PRC PAO, your home version game is on the way

Relax remember how wars that were supposed to be over by Christmas lasted for 4 more years?

Derbedeu

02-03-2010, 08:25 PM

About time the West is on the receiving end.
Yes, it is annoying too when the West bitch about China.

You mean like when they complain over Chinese disregard for intellectual property, or the numerous hackers and spies, or the human rights abuses, polluting the environment, keeping the Yuan artificially devalued, etc?

How the **** does that compare to meeting a religious leader?

MaNiC

02-03-2010, 08:39 PM

unofficially after mao died

unofficially I'm God

Blue P

02-03-2010, 09:13 PM

You mean like when they complain over Chinese disregard for intellectual property, or the numerous hackers and spies, or the human rights abuses, polluting the environment, keeping the Yuan artificially devalued, etc?

How the **** does that compare to meeting a religious leader?

actually, bin laden is a religous leader too.

and amercian talking about damaging the environment 107740

Kilgor

02-03-2010, 09:20 PM

Blue P

02-03-2010, 09:29 PM

^ per capita stastics dont change the fact that around 16/20 most polluted cities are in China.

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/06/12/the-worlds-top-20-most-polluted-cities/

Use that statistic all you want, but it wont change the air level.

no, it won't. a lot work chinese need to do to helf themselves. but it neither changes the fact each american does more than FOUR times the damage to the environment, than a chinese. and same people bitching about chinese environment pollution, ironic isnt it?

cn_habs

02-03-2010, 09:30 PM

brokenlegdrunk

02-03-2010, 09:34 PM

cn_habs

02-03-2010, 09:35 PM

^ per capita stastics dont change the fact that around 16/20 most polluted cities are in China.

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/06/12/the-worlds-top-20-most-polluted-cities/

Use that statistic all you want, but it wont change the air level.

The Chinese have established on the same land for more than 5000 years. The North American continent is rather new in comparison. Of course there's way less pollution there.

Per capita, Canada, Autralia and the US are the worst polluters in the past century and you expect the Chinese to keep their pollution down while people like you still be at the top at polluting? This is hypocritic and arrogant of you if you think you as a Westerner have more right to pollute as much as you want while a Chinese national has to obey a certain limit. Per capita can only be discounted as a way of mesuring if you think you have MORE rights than a Chinese citizen.

Back to topic. If Obama wants to meet Lama to further enhance his image then he shoudl go ahead and face the repercussions. Consider yourself warned in advance.

"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."

Good luck understanding that. Doing nothing would only encourage meetings between the lama and the West.

Kilgor

02-03-2010, 09:58 PM

Fairness and equality doesn't matter to the environment.

I agree with what your saying, but it doesn't matter ... the pollution in Chinese cities is what counts.

cn_habs

02-03-2010, 10:11 PM

Fairness and equality doesn't matter to the environment.

I agree with what your saying, but it doesn't matter ... the pollution in Chinese cities is what counts.

I know how bad it can be sometimes. We've been trying to fix it...we won't see the result right away. Hopefull, the CCP is gonna take an even firmer stance on pollution.

P.Koschei

02-03-2010, 10:46 PM

What is it with these Tibet threads that turn into dozens of pages of passive aggressive bitching. It may be cathartic to call China all sorts of bad names, but its not like its getting one single Tibetan out of jail.

California Joe

02-03-2010, 10:47 PM

SBL

02-03-2010, 10:50 PM

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/showcase-65/

LineDoggie

02-03-2010, 10:57 PM

OT, but you clearly have no clue about the ethnic "situation" in Malaysia. You apparently have no clue over who "The Middle Path" is ethnically since your new, huh?

Then again, maybe you do....

LineDoggie

02-03-2010, 10:58 PM

You should start a voter registration organization and call it CHICORN.
As in Sweet and Sour Chicorn?

MaNiC

02-03-2010, 11:31 PM

actually, bin laden is a religous leader too.

Stop being so daft. OBL is to religious leader as Stalin is to nice guy.

Next time you try to give credit to the scumbag (intentional or otherwise), I'll punch you through the computer screen...

Derbedeu

02-03-2010, 11:32 PM

actually, bin laden is a religous leader too.

Really? Is he the caliph of Sunni Islam? Or the head of Shiites? Give me an 'effin break man.

cn_habs

02-03-2010, 11:36 PM

You apparently have no clue over who "The Middle Path" is ethnically since your new, huh?

Then again, maybe you do....

Why would a Malai actually sign up here and defend China against Western old-school biais? :lol: Of course he's Chinese. It's not rocket science.

Many local Malaysians are racist and the illegal Indonesians there don't really make the country safer. My friend barely ever took a walk there...regarless of the time of the day.

hulaku

02-04-2010, 01:16 AM

Many local Malaysians are racist and the illegal Indonesians there don't really make the country safer. My friend barely ever took a walk there...regarless of the time of the day.

I would beg to differ. I have been to Malaysia a number of times and I have never faced any racist behavior towards me by any Malay. Infact whenever I took a cab I preferred a Malay driven cab cause they never tried to rip you off. But in the case of Indian and Chinese cab drivers it was a different story at times.

And I felt as safe walking in KL as I feel when I visit Guangzhou even when late at night and Im piss drunk.:)

Sorry for OT

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 11:45 AM

I would beg to differ. I have been to Malaysia a number of times and I have never faced any racist behavior towards me by any Malay. Infact whenever I took a cab I preferred a Malay driven cab cause they never tried to rip you off. But in the case of Indian and Chinese cab drivers it was a different story at times.

And I felt as safe walking in KL as I feel when I visit Guangzhou even when late at night and Im piss drunk.:)

Sorry for OT

You've only been there a couple of times while my friend is born and raised there. You are still an outsider since you didn't live there all your life.
Has it occured to your mind that maybe she is of Chinese origin? Miserable people tend to do more than just "envy" those who actually have some dough in those ASEAN countries.

Guangzhou is way more safer for people of Chinese ethnicity than any major cities in ASEAN.

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 11:47 AM

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LB05Ad01.html

Washington brushed the warning aside. ''The president told ... China's leaders during his trip last year that he would meet with the Dalai Lama, and he intends to do so," White House spokesman Bill Burton said on Tuesday. "The Dalai Lama is an internationally respected religious and cultural leader, and the president will meet with him in that capacity.''

Says the WH spokesman :lol:

LineDoggie

02-04-2010, 11:48 AM

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LB05Ad01.html

Says the WH spokesman :lol:
ooh you earned your 30 yuan

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 11:51 AM

Really? Is he the caliph of Sunni Islam? Or the head of Shiites? Give me an 'effin break man.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LB05Ad02.html

WH spokesman who represents the US says so...

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 11:53 AM

ooh you earned your 30 yuan

A raise? Thanks. :lol:

Think long and hard before you whine on a subject that you practically nothing about or you'll get ridiculized. Don't judge a real-time operation from the standpoint of an armchair. :lol:

LineDoggie

02-04-2010, 12:11 PM

A raise? Thanks. :lol:

Think long and hard before you whine on a subject that you practically nothing about or you'll get ridiculized. Don't judge a real-time operation from the standpoint of an armchair. :lol:

Oh Grasshopper, I was on Real-time Operations when you were fapping to CoD2, dont overestimate from the safety of another country what China will do, you'll be surprised

TheMiddlePath

02-04-2010, 10:07 PM

You wouldnt care nor accept any explanation that doesnt fit your perceptions anyway.

I would point out that besides as you say being the leader of the Tibetan Government in Exile, the Lama is also a spritual leader of Millions, and the US meets with Spiritual leaders all the time, as do many countries leadership

So why don't he met with the Pope or Muslim religious Leaders...every year.
I think we all know whats going on.

Charter of the Tibetans-In-Exile (http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/tibet/tibet6.html)
CHAPTER - IV
THE EXECUTIVE
Executive Power - Article 19.
The executive power of the Tibetan Administration shall be vested in His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and shall be exercised by Him, either directly or through officers subordinate to Him, in accordance with the provisions of this Charter. In particular, His Holiness the Dalai Lama shall be empowered to execute the following executive powers as the chief executive of the Tibetan government:

What version of the "Norms" of International Relationship? the PRC's?

Respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all nations
Abstention from intervention or interference in the internal affairs of another country
Abstention by any country from exerting pressures on other countries

-----**** Non related off the topic rhetoric snipped ***-----

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 10:08 PM

Oh Grasshopper, I was on Real-time Operations when you were fapping to CoD2, dont overestimate from the safety of another country what China will do, you'll be surprised

LOL...I don't try to interfere with other people's business esp. when I don't know squat on the subject.

cn_habs

02-04-2010, 10:10 PM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=53629

These are repercussions of the weapon sale and this schedules meeting. Finally some balls from the CCP. :lol:

LineDoggie

02-04-2010, 10:11 PM

LOL...I don't try to interfere with other people's business esp. when I don't know squat on the subject.OK Eisenhower, what real time Operation was it then?

BloodyTalon

02-04-2010, 11:03 PM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=53629

These are repercussions of the weapon sale and this schedules meeting. Finally some balls from the CCP. :lol:
I have to agree; it does take balls to sanction the companies whose products the CCP blatantly tries to copy. They might now have to resort to good ol' fashioned R&D now. p-)

Furthermore, considering that the majority of the companies involved (Sikorsky, BAE, Raytheon, Avondale Shipyard, etc.) Don't even do extensive business with the PRC in the first place the sanctions are just about as pointless as **** on a zombie. But if it makes Chicoms sleep better at night than what the hell, let them have their "balls".

hulaku

02-05-2010, 12:39 AM

His Holiness The Dalai Lama's message to the Chinese People.

An Appeal to the Chinese People

Today, I extend heartfelt greetings to my Chinese brothers and sisters around the world, particularly to those in the People's Republic of China. In the light of the recent developments in Tibet, I would like to share with you my thoughts concerning relations between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples, and make a personal appeal to all of you.

I am deeply saddened by the loss of life in the recent tragic events in Tibet. I am aware that some Chinese have also died. I feel for the victims and their families and pray for them. The recent unrest has clearly demonstrated the gravity of the situation in Tibet and the urgent need to seek a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution through dialogue. Even at this juncture I have expressed my willingness to the Chinese authorities to work together to bring about peace and stability.

Chinese brothers and sisters, I assure you I have no desire to seek Tibet's separation. Nor do I have any wish to drive a wedge between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples. On the contrary my commitment has always been to find a genuine solution to the problem of Tibet that ensures the long-term interests of both Chinese and Tibetans. My primary concern, as I have repeated time and again, is to ensure the survival of the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language and identity. As a simple monk who strives to live his daily life according to Buddhist precepts, I assure you of the sincerity of my personal motivation.

I have appealed to the leadership of the PRC to clearly understand my position and work to resolve these problems by "seeking truth from facts". I urge the Chinese leadership to exercise wisdom and to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the Tibetan people. I also appeal to them to make sincere efforts to contribute to the stability and harmony of the PRC and avoid creating rifts between the nationalities. The state media's portrayal of the recent events in Tibet, using deceit and distorted images, could sow the seeds of racial tension with unpredictable long-term consequences. This is of grave concern to me. Similarly, despite my repeated support for the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese authorities, with the intention of creating a rift between the Chinese people and myself, the Chinese authorities assert that I am trying to sabotage the games. I am encouraged, however, that several Chinese intellectuals and scholars have also expressed their strong concern about the Chinese leadership's actions and the potential for adverse long-term consequences, particularly on relations among different nationalities.

Since ancient times, Tibetan and Chinese peoples have lived as neighbors. In the two thousand year old recorded history of our peoples, we have at times developed friendly relations, even entering into matrimonial alliances, while at others we fought each other. However, since Buddhism flourished in China first before it arrived in Tibet from India, we Tibetans have historically accorded the Chinese people the respect and affection due to elder Dharma brothers and sisters. This is something well known to members of the Chinese community living outside China, some of whom have attended my Buddhist lectures, as well as pilgrims from mainland China, whom I have had the privilege to meet. I take heart from these meetings and feel they may contribute to a better understanding between our two peoples.

The twentieth century witnessed enormous changes in many parts of the world and Tibet too was caught up in this turbulence. Soon after the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet finally resulting in the 17-point Agreement concluded between China and Tibet in May 1951. When I was in Beijing in 1954/55, attending the National People's Congress, I had the opportunity to meet and develop a personal friendship with many senior leaders, including Chairman Mao himself. In fact, Chairman Mao gave me advice on numerous issues, as well as personal assurances with regard to the future of Tibet. Encouraged by these assurances, and inspired by the dedication of many of China's revolutionary leaders of the time, I returned to Tibet full of confidence and optimism. Some Tibetan members of the Chinese Communist Party also had such a hope. After my return to Lhasa, I made every possible effort to seek genuine regional autonomy for Tibet within the family of the People's Republic of China (PRC). I believed that this would best serve the long-term interests of both the Tibetan and Chinese peoples.

Unfortunately, tensions, which began to escalate in Tibet from around 1956, eventually led to the peaceful uprising of March 10, 1959, in Lhasa and my eventual escape into exile. Although many positive developments have taken place in Tibet under the PRC's rule, these developments, as the previous Panchen Lama pointed out in January 1989, were overshadowed by immense suffering and extensive destruction. Tibetans were compelled to live in a state of constant fear, while the Chinese government remained suspicious of them. However, instead of cultivating enmity towards the Chinese leaders responsible for the ruthless suppression of the Tibetan people, I prayed for them to become friends, which I expressed in the following lines in a prayer I composed in 1960, a year after I arrived in India: "May they attain the wisdom eye discerning right and wrong, And may they abide in the glory of friendship and love." Many Tibetans, school children among them, recite these lines in their daily prayers.

In 1974, following serious discussions with my Kashag (cabinet), as well as the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the then Assembly of the Tibetan People's Deputies, we decided to find a Middle Way that would seek not to separate Tibet from China, but would facilitate the peaceful development of Tibet. Although we had no contact at the time with the PRC - which was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution - we had already recognized that, sooner or later, we would have to resolve the question of Tibet through negotiations. We also acknowledged that, at least with regard to modernization and economic development, it would greatly benefit Tibet if it remained within the PRC. Although Tibet has a rich and ancient cultural heritage, it is materially undeveloped.

Situated on the roof of the world, Tibet is the source of many of Asia's major rivers; therefore, protection of the environment on the Tibetan plateau is of supreme importance. Since our utmost concern is to safeguard Tibetan Buddhist culture - rooted as it is in the values of universal compassion - as well as the Tibetan language and the unique Tibetan identity, we have worked whole-heartedly towards achieving meaningful self-rule for all Tibetans. The PRC's constitution provides the right for nationalities such as the Tibetans to do this.

In 1979, the then Chinese paramount leader, Deng Xiaoping assured my personal emissary that "except for the independence of Tibet, all other questions can be negotiated." Since we had already formulated our approach to seeking a solution to the Tibetan issue within the constitution of the PRC, we found ourselves well placed to respond to this new opportunity. My representatives met many times with officials of the PRC. Since renewing our contacts in 2002, we have had six rounds of talks. However, on the fundamental issue, there has been no concrete result at all. Nevertheless, as I have declared many times, I remain firmly committed to the Middle Way approach and reiterate here my willingness to continue to pursue the process of dialogue.

This year, the Chinese people are proudly and eagerly awaiting the opening of the Olympic Games. I have, from the start, supported Beijing's being awarded the opportunity to host the Games. My position remains unchanged. China has the world's largest population, a long history and an extremely rich civilization. Today, due to her impressive economic progress, she is emerging as a great power. This is certainly to be welcomed. But China also needs to earn the respect and esteem of the global community through the establishment of an open and harmonious society based on the principles of transparency, freedom, and the rule of law. For example, to this day victims of the Tiananmen Square tragedy that adversely affected the lives of so many Chinese citizens have received neither just redress nor any official response. Similarly, when thousands of ordinary Chinese in rural areas suffer injustice at the hands of exploitative and corrupt local officials, their legitimate complaints are either ignored or met with aggression. I express these concerns both as a fellow human being and as someone who is prepared to consider himself a member of the large family that is the People's Republic of China. In this respect, I appreciate and support President Hu Jintao's policy of creating a "harmonious society", but this can only arise on the basis of mutual trust and an atmosphere of freedom, including freedom of speech and the rule of law. I strongly believe that if these values are embraced, many important problems relating to minority nationalities can be resolved, such as the issue of Tibet, as well as Eastern Turkistan, and Inner Mongolia, where the native people now constitute only 20% of a total population of 24 million.

I had hoped President Hu Jintao's recent statement that the stability and safety of Tibet concerns the stability and safety of the country might herald the dawning of a new era for the resolution of the problem of Tibet. It is unfortunate that despite my sincere efforts not to separate Tibet from China, the leaders of the PRC continue to accuse me of being a 'separatist'. Similarly, when Tibetans in Lhasa and many other areas spontaneously protested to express their deep-rooted resentment, the Chinese authorities immediately accused me of having orchestrated their demonstrations. I have called for a thorough investigation by a respected body to look into this allegation.

Chinese brothers and sisters - wherever you may be - with deep concern I appeal to you to help dispel the misunderstandings between our two communities. Moreover, I appeal to you to help us find a peaceful, lasting solution to the problem of Tibet through dialogue in the spirit of understanding and accommodation.

With my prayers,

The Dalai Lama

March 28, 2008

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/tibet/appeal-to-the-chinese-people

Mavet

02-05-2010, 12:47 AM

Tibet issue is a non-issue which can leads to lots of 'troubles'.

The US is clear: create strategic annoying against China's interests. This kind of action (or some more blatant ones) is normal throughout history to create troubles for your opponents. The British and the French in the past could help their resented Ottoman Turk to defeat supposed Christian brethren, the Russians clearly demonstrated the cold reality of politics: international politics is like business, there's no such thing as FRIENDS.

I don't think this will change too much. Because the DL has already been given a lesson: when Obama 'tried' to reach out to China, he can be dumped, and when strategic annoyance game starts, he's recruited back.

Is there anyway for China to stop DL? Not atm, because DL is one of the best cards to create bare annoyance yet super noisy in the same time.

But things have been said, it's a non-issue as no matter what US or others do, the result is fixed.

So enjoy arguing.

Kilgor

02-05-2010, 01:31 AM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=53629

These are repercussions of the weapon sale and this schedules meeting. Finally some balls from the CCP. :lol:

lolz , arms companies which are already embargo'd against selling to the CCP ?

Balls would be dumping your holdings of US treasuries.

i_heart_menthols

02-05-2010, 03:29 AM

Personally I hope relations aren't repaired and a complete trade embargo between China and the U.S. ensues.

It would mean shortages of goods and a great deal of economic pain to the U.S. in the short term but in the long run it would force the U.S. to live within it's means and create an incentive to begin manufacturing more goods here at home again instead of exporting our jobs and industries overseas.

rkpo

02-06-2010, 05:46 AM

Tibet issue is a non-issue which can leads to lots of 'troubles'.

It is a pretty clear indicator just how much China is full of itself.... so the rest of us watch and wonder when the CCP will wise up to how dumb it looks with its crying game. It's not hard for the CCP to solve the Tibet issue and in fact would be a good lesson in maturity for China.

Mavet

02-06-2010, 06:41 AM

It is a pretty clear indicator just how much China is full of itself.... so the rest of us watch and wonder when the CCP will wise up to how dumb it looks with its crying game. It's not hard for the CCP to solve the Tibet issue and in fact would be a good lesson in maturity for China.

I'm not someone working for China's MFA, so I can't answer totally what the govt is thinking. And I'm not a supporter of any political parties. And as many Chinese, I would see Chinese people's interests are served. On issue of Tibet, I don't particularly care how others define it, because many countries which are powerful just do whatever it pleases them.

Again, this is strategy. I personally is OK with the meeting between DL and Obama NOW, because we can just simply tell the delegate from DL in China one sentence: Learn the lessons of Realpolitik yet? ( we know it all too well, since 19th century to great wars and to Cold war till now.)

Tibet was under the control of Qing Dynasty and there is NO way that it will go.

Politics is like car industry, major companies will use many strategies to strengthen itself and weaken others because the market is relatively fixed. I bet everyone CEO (except for Toyota) of those major companies are having a great time trying to maximise Toyota's damage and its own gains. Same is those DL games: there's only a few spots for major powers, and yet a 1.4 billion people country wants to join and share this one pie, I would do anything to harm China if I were an American. This is TOTALLY understandable. Didn't the Americans keep bashing the Japanese before when they became very powerful and they are a ..... democracy? Yes, that's the hypocracy, it's all about power in the end. Peace is strategic move, not a principle.

And I personally support keep an lip service on keeping the dialogue between DL's representitves and the govt. People do that all the time, even about closing a prison isn't it?

cn_habs

02-06-2010, 12:36 PM

LineDoggie

02-06-2010, 01:03 PM

You clearly lack background on the subject and you have everything to gain to see China lose ground = The ordinary Chinese people don't give a rat's ass about biased opinions/POV like yours and you only make them more patriotic which only helps the CCP. Nothing else to say. :lol:
Obviously, since you enever answered what ongoing real time operation was going on .........

lmao

plato

02-06-2010, 01:14 PM

You clearly lack background on the subject and you have everything to gain to see China lose ground = The ordinary Chinese people don't give a rat's ass about biased opinions/POV like yours and you only make them more patriotic which only helps the CCP. Nothing else to say. :lol:

Do you want to help the CCP? Are you patriotic to Canada or China? How many of those "ordinary Chinese people" do you speak for? 1.3 billion? 1 billion? or 500 million? How about just speak for yourself instead?

Ilhanna

02-06-2010, 01:44 PM

Its a good discussion.

TheMiddlePath

02-06-2010, 08:40 PM

LineDoggie

02-06-2010, 08:43 PM

yydebox1

02-06-2010, 09:58 PM

30 yuan earned.....

Stupid reply......

You can read Mavet's post and try to against it or STFU.

yydebox1

02-06-2010, 10:00 PM

Do you want to help the CCP? Are you patriotic to Canada or China? How many of those "ordinary Chinese people" do you speak for? 1.3 billion? 1 billion? or 500 million? How about just speak for yourself instead?

You kown how much about CCP?You kown how much about Chinese people?You kown how much about Tibet?

plato

02-06-2010, 11:42 PM

You kown how much about CCP?You kown how much about Chinese people?You kown how much about Tibet?

No matter how much or little I know about CCP, Chinese people or Tibet, there is always much more for me to learn or know.

iam980

02-15-2010, 04:50 AM

yydebox pretending to be PLA and protect any interest in or outside China.
People around the world who against China, yydebox will stand ground in the China's minefield zone as a sincere communist member worship and show his loyalty to his master.

iam980

02-15-2010, 04:52 AM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by yydebox1 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../showthread.php?p=4743881#post4743881)
You kown how much about CCP?You kown how much about Chinese people?You kown how much about Tibet?

No matter how much or little I know about CCP, Chinese people or Tibet, there is always much more for me to learn or know.

yydebox pretending to be PLA and protect any interest in or outside China.
People around the world who against China, yydebox will stand ground in the China's minefield zone as a sincere communist member worship and show his loyalty to his master.[/QUOTE]

rkpo

02-15-2010, 05:17 AM

...ordinary Chinese people don't give a rat's ass about biased opinions/POV like yours and you only make them more patriotic which only helps the CCP. Nothing else to say. :lol:

Biased opinion, oh you mean considering that the Tibetans might actually have something called human rights... something the citizens of China do not even have so me thinks Im not the one who is suffering from bias, or perhaps you instead mean bias as having a different opinion from the CCP overlords!

rkpo

02-15-2010, 05:22 AM

Do you have any idea how dumb the DL look receiving all those "human rights" or "citizenship" awards from his Western Masters. Yet with every award, he is further and further away from Tibet.

So the rest of us can watch and wonder when DL will wise up that begging to his Western Masters for help looks like a crying game too.

You got it backwards, if anyone was made to look dumb from the DL recieving awards, it is China. Only China can do the right thing in regards to Tibet. The DL has limited influence in Tibet so it doesnt make any sense to hekkle him because he has not ability to influence - in fact its his limited ability to change what is happening in Tibet that caused the CCP to hastily blame him for anything that happens in Tibet. Your not making much sense guys but following propaganda as some line of truth or logic will get you there everytime.... get used to it.

cn_habs

02-15-2010, 05:48 PM

Biased opinion, oh you mean considering that the Tibetans might actually have something called human rights... something the citizens of China do not even have so me thinks Im not the one who is suffering from bias, or perhaps you instead mean bias as having a different opinion from the CCP overlords!

Tibetans have more rights than Han Chinese so you can STFU.

Of course, I'd like to have more "freedom" but I wasn't born yesterday like many here. I want my family to live in a relatively harmonious environment not in some chaotic civil war/foreign invasion. If you are half as tough as you try to be on an online forum, lead your army to PRC and defeat them.

Whether it's life in general, work, school and even dating, one simple rules applies: Winners get to choose and impose authority upon the weak, not some jealous ow-life losers who are cry babies. No one has been able to change human nature since the beginning of mankind.

plato

02-15-2010, 05:53 PM

Tibetans have more rights than Han Chinese so you can STFU.

Of course, I'd like to have more "freedom" but I wasn't born yesterday like many here.

If you are half as tough as you try to on an online forum. Lead your army to PRC and defeat them.

The bottom line is: Winners get to choose and impose authority, not some jealous ow-life losers who are cry babies. No one has been able to change human nature throughout the beginning of mankind.

I think you are right! No one can change human nature, not even you! The bottom line is that you are in Canada, not China. Can you change that?

cn_habs

02-15-2010, 06:26 PM

I think you are right! No one can change human nature, not even you! The bottom line is that you are in Canada, not China. Can you change that?

I can go back anytime I want. My grandparents miss me like crazy.
Once my education is completed, the possibilities will be endless. :lol:

CPL Trevoga

02-15-2010, 07:37 PM

Can somebody explain to me why US shipped all manufacturing jobs to China, sells it's debt to Chinese and then openly supports Dalai Lama? Whats the strategy here?

vinny_121_ND

02-15-2010, 07:52 PM

Can somebody explain to me why US shipped all manufacturing jobs to China, sells it's debt to Chinese and then openly supports Dalai Lama? Whats the strategy here?

It's not just the US, it's also Canadian companies. No minimum wage, no environmental standards to contend with, higher return on investment. And also, the Chinese are more flexible in what they can design.

I'm not going to speculate on why Bush borrowed a lot of money from China since I don't have all the facts.

plato

02-15-2010, 07:55 PM

I can go back anytime I want. My grandparents miss me like crazy.
Once my education is completed, the possibilities will be endless. :lol:

the bottomline is that you know your own bottomline better than I do. I wish you are successful at securing your bottomline. good luck!

plato

02-15-2010, 07:59 PM

It's not just the US, it's also Canadian companies. No minimum wage, no environmental standards to contend with, higher return on investment. And also, the Chinese are more flexible in what they can design.

I'm not going to speculate on why Bush borrowed a lot of money from China since I don't have all the facts.

I think it is not exactly borrowing. US is willing to sell bonds and China is willing to buy them. If they don't buy our bonds, then how else can they spend all that US dollars in their hands? US bond is the only option they have.

JPBaz

02-15-2010, 08:16 PM

Can somebody explain to me why US shipped all manufacturing jobs to China, sells it's debt to Chinese and then openly supports Dalai Lama? Whats the strategy here?

I think it has something to do with Lenin selling the capitalist world the rope they will use to hang themselves with...:roll:

Not a pretty thought but I wish more Americans would realize this before it is too late. My own father last year had to travel out to CA last year to inform a few of his suppliers that their contracts were not being renewed. The manufacturing is now being done in China. The rational was that the US suppliers (although they did an outstanding job at a good price) would not give his company (a supplier of manufacturing machines for the computer industry) an ability to compete in the Chinese market. The US company was hanging quality US manufacturers out to dry for the sake of the Chinese market.

skyrock

02-15-2010, 08:32 PM

Capitalists do things to maximize profits, so you see the on-going out-sourcing.
Politicians do things to maximize supports from the voters, so you see them play the "tough guy" role.

Can somebody explain to me why US shipped all manufacturing jobs to China, sells it's debt to Chinese and then openly supports Dalai Lama? Whats the strategy here?

rkpo

02-15-2010, 10:45 PM

Tibetans have more rights than Han Chinese so you can STFU.

Pfft, I read that with an accent LOL, funny thanks, and supports my point to boot.

Of course, I'd like to have more "freedom" but I wasn't born yesterday like many here. I want my family to live in a relatively harmonious environment not in some chaotic civil war/foreign invasion. If you are half as tough as you try to be on an online forum, lead your army to PRC and defeat them.

I shouldnt have too.

Whether it's life in general, work, school and even dating, one simple rules applies: Winners get to choose and impose authority upon the weak, not some jealous ow-life losers who are cry babies. No one has been able to change human nature since the beginning of mankind.

If you believe that then you 'are' going backwards. Lets look at the accussed cry babies here;
1. the Chinese for expecting decent people to bow to the inhumane demands of the CCP just so it can keep a shiny image for its own people.... versus,
2. the DL for expecting the CCP to alter the conditions to allow harmless cultural practises.

Obviously there are further issues that China is falling short like the environment and overpopulation, but the rest of the world struggles with this also to different degrees. Human rights though is something which is in the power of the authorities to improve.... unfortunatly democracry requires that the people trust themselves and I guess the Chinese do not trust themselves to be a democracry.

The rest of the world is not out to get China, in fact people do not give China a single thought most days of the week. When I attended a speaking event that the DL spoke about 20 years ago, he wasnt talking about China. The reason people outside of China respect the DL is because he is a great Buddhist teacher... his struggle against China only acts to reinforce his commitment to those ideals - it does not constitute who he is. So in that respect China is the one providing the context to the DL which makes him great.

cn_habs

02-16-2010, 12:23 AM

1. the Chinese for expecting decent people to bow to the inhumane demands of the CCP just so it can keep a shiny image for its own people.... versus,

When did the Chinese say that? All we say is "mind your own business esp. if you are not fully awareness of the background. Who asked you to bow? We are not the on purpose assimilating other ethnicities. Han are everywhere in China and has more historic background, influence and money. Over time, this type of assimilation happens everywhere on this planet, even in Canada.

The rest of the world is not out to get China, in fact people do not give China a single thought most days of the week. When I attended a speaking event that the DL spoke about 20 years ago, he wasnt talking about China. The reason people outside of China respect the DL is because he is a great Buddhist teacher... his struggle against China only acts to reinforce his commitment to those ideals - it does not constitute who he is. So in that respect China is the one providing the context to the DL which makes him great.He lost everything he fully enjoyed back in his theocratic days. What else can he do besides smiling and teaching budism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_IohMUWaY

"....everyday scenes ressembling life in Medieval Europe. Dalai Lama is the role model for the SS's elite."
"....letter address to His Highness, Mr. Hitler,..."

http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2

One thing is for sure...The Tibetan socialites surely respected Hitler's success and since the Tibet social pyramid was so similar to the Nazi's. What do the Jews think of it? DL's mentor was a highly ranking SS officer, Harrer who even wrote a book about his days in Tibet.

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dorje-shugden-documentary/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-expelling-monks/

Your media never mentions these things, which makes the audience unaware of the other side of the story, AKA ignorant.

The CCP has always been firm or authoritarian on national sovreignty but DL got just as much dirt. Answer to the vids before we continue this discussion.

plato

02-16-2010, 12:30 AM

Dalai Lama was less than 10 years old when Nazis were in power?

TheMiddlePath

02-16-2010, 12:37 AM

Dalai Lama was less than 10 years old when Nazis were in power?

Is that a question or a statement ? Is that "?" another one of your tricks ?

plato

02-16-2010, 12:38 AM

Is that a question or a statement ?

Of course it was a statement, it is the FOX news style. Nazis were smart. I have hard time to make 10 year olds to collaborate

hskywalker

02-16-2010, 12:56 AM

cn_habs

02-16-2010, 01:04 AM

Dalai Lama was less than 10 years old when Nazis were in power?

Tenzin Gyatso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama) is his name. The Dalai Lama is a lineage of religious officials of the Gelug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug) sect of Tibetan Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism).

What did we say about ignorance among Westerners. 100 bucks from my own pocket that 99% of those ignorant people thought Dalai Lama was his own name.

rkpo

02-16-2010, 01:21 AM

When did the Chinese say that?

Telling Obama not to meet with the Dalai Lama, 'aka' the thread topic.

We are not the on purpose assimilating other ethnicities. Han are everywhere in China and has more historic background, influence and money. Over time, this type of assimilation happens everywhere on this planet, even in Canada.

Then get out of Tibet. Invading another country and then resettling hundreds of thousands of internal migrants (Han Chinese) is not natural assimilation.

He lost everything he fully enjoyed back in his theocratic days. What else can he do besides smiling and teaching budism?

That is part of his purpose, the other part was denied because of Chinese occupation and persecution. It sounds like your promoting violence as authority.

One thing is for sure...The Tibetan socialites surely respected Hitler's success and since the Tibet social pyramid was so similar to the Nazi's. What do the Jews think of it? DL's mentor was a highly ranking SS officer, Harrer who even wrote a book about his days in Tibet.

Where did you get "Tibetan socialites respected Hitlers success" from.... do you know how isolated Tibet was in those days? I think your making stuff up now. He escaped from prison into the hills, where he joined the Tibetan Buddhist community. He was not a serving SS officer from that point on AFAIK. Tibetan Buddhism predates the Nazi's by over a thousand years and you comparing the 2 is weak.

Your media never mentions these things, which makes the audience unaware of the other side of the story, AKA ignorant.

Sure it has. It was reported at the time by mainstream media, so again your 'aka' ignorant.

The CCP has always been firm or authoritarian on national sovreignty but DL got just as much dirt. Answer to the vids before we continue this discussion.

Discussing the Shugden (http://www.fpmt.org/organization/announcements/shugden/) issue is not what this thread is about, and those other pages are so full of c-rap that its not worth bothering with, the national geographic video really only highlites that the Tibetan's were polite and open to foreigners - whilst the Nazi's have always been twisting things the way they wanted. Dont start believing the Nazi propaganda just because your used to CCP propaganda.

rkpo

02-16-2010, 01:25 AM

What did we say about ignorance among Westerners. 100 bucks from my own pocket that 99% of those ignorant people thought Dalai Lama was his own name.

There is only one Dalai Lama at anyone time, so plato's statement is still 100% correct, because only a physical body gets old and plato said '10 years old', but I guess you'd have to have some concept of Buddhism to understand that? See now your going offtopic because your loosing the topic!

rkpo

02-16-2010, 01:27 AM

Tibetan culture was more barbaric, inhumane and disgusting than taleban's version of islam. It deserves some kind of cultural genocide as called by dalai.
Westerners will never know, never want to know or speak it even they know.

That would be why they are so thankfull for the Chinese occupation then? More evidence the pro-Chinese posters online have a misplaced tendancy towards enraged violance, what is China coming too......

TheMiddlePath

02-16-2010, 02:09 AM

Of course it was a statement, it is the FOX news style. Nazis were smart. I have hard time to make 10 year olds to collaborate

Isn't the Dalai Lama the God-king ruler of all Tibet at 12 years old ? Only 2 years short of making day to day decision of a government ?

plato

02-16-2010, 02:18 AM

Tenzin Gyatso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama) is his name. The Dalai Lama is a lineage of religious officials of the Gelug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug) sect of Tibetan Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism).

What did we say about ignorance among Westerners. 100 bucks from my own pocket that 99% of those ignorant people thought Dalai Lama was his own name.

you are really something! Of course Tenzin Gyatso is his name, but we also know him as Dalai Lama. As a matter of fact you use Dalai Lama when referring to him as well. The bigger question is how did you come up with all that BS about western ignorance from my original post?

If you really care about ignorance, then please ask your fellow Chinese the same question. See how many of them know Dalai Lama's name. (or 14th Dalai Lama's name since you are so picky) I believe most Chinese know him as Dalai Lama, right? Using your logic, can we also say Chinese ignorance?

rkpo

02-16-2010, 02:19 AM

Isn't the Dalai Lama the God-king ruler of all Tibet at 12 years old ? Only 2 years short of making day to day decision of a government ?

I think I heard the term "God-King" in one of those video's cn_habs posted but I guess it could be used although technically wrong. Being basically the physical incarnation of the pursuit of Compassion doesnt take away that he had to learn and practise being physically within a new body.... so I bet he had plenty of helpers making the decisions until he older

clue

02-16-2010, 02:25 AM

You Chinese China defenders absolutely suck at this.

Dalai Lama is a title. You don't call Obama a POTUS every time, do you? Of course not.

As for propaganda, everybody uses them. Omission, distortion, lies, etc. EVERYBODY. Before pointing out somebody else, look at your own first.

For China's legitimacy to Tibet, it is legit. Everyone recognizes it. Tibet has been part of China since Yuan dynasty. Dalai Lama title was bestowed by a Chinese emperor. Interwar conferences of WWII recognizes China's claim to Tibet, too bad for western powers their puppet didn't win.

Nations with strong sovereignty does not practice self-determination, that's enforced on losers by winners, the purpose is to weaken a competitor nation(s).

It doesn't matter whether or not Tibet was a feudal society, or Tenzin Gyatso is some embodiment of Hollywood propaganda. Those tidbits are irrelevant.

hulaku

02-16-2010, 02:27 AM

Tibetan culture was more barbaric, inhumane and disgusting than taleban's version of islam.
Do you have any links or sources on this information or are you spewing the usual Communist Party Propaganda? Comparing it to the Taliban is LOL.

It deserves some kind of cultural genocide as called by dalai.
Im not actually sure what you are trying to say here. Could you please elucidate this statement?

Westerners will never know, never want to know or speak it even they know.
Probably westerners can come to know this is they are allowed free acess to the whole of Tibet. What problem does the Chinese Government have in allowing foreigners free access to Tibet? Is there something that the Government is trying to hide?

Mavet

02-16-2010, 02:31 AM

Come to think the logic behind the govt's hardline even by meeting DL, I can have only one conclusion: to prevent further damage by DL if he and the west perceive that China will give in.

Because atm, the west are not providing real support to DL and his exile govt in any substantial way, they only offer their big mouths with 'blah blah blah'. But if we don't make our point clear, some in the west, esp US might start pondering create geopolitical damage to our interest rather than the current political annoyance.

And the west should have no illusion that China will be different from them when they rose to great power: not Spain, not Nederlands, not UK, not France, not Germany, not Russia, not Japan, not US. It is our territory, don't expect any sort of concession.

BloodyTalon

02-16-2010, 03:09 AM

LOL Nazis
Ah yes, the classic "The Dalai Lama was an evil Nazi at age 12" argument from a Chinese user who very likely knows jack **** about the 1939 expedition to Tibet and its participants aside from the fact that they were funded by the SS. Have you decided to use MiddlePath's playbook now?

rkpo

02-16-2010, 03:11 AM

And the west should have no illusion that China will be different from them when they rose to great power: not Spain, not Nederlands, not UK, not France, not Germany, not Russia, not Japan, not US. It is our territory, don't expect any sort of concession.

Its not your territory if you need the Army to control it.

What about these concessions you refuse, you mean even simple things like releasing a person who was put in jail in 1995 at the age of 6 years old, google Gedhun Choekyi Nyima.
Put in jail simply because the DL announced he was a spiritual successor to a Tibetan religious and political position role, who the CCP wanted someone else to fulfil.

The issue on Tibet is much darker then simply China claiming ownership - the actions of the CCP on this issue serve as insight to the real problem, despite the crying of pro-CCP posters here.

hulaku

02-16-2010, 03:27 AM

What about these concessions you refuse, you mean even simple things like releasing a person who was put in jail in 1995 at the age of 6 years old, google Gedhun Choekyi Nyima.

Since the users in China would be unable to Google this and get beyond their Internet police Im posting some articles on Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. Arresting a 6 year old and keeping him as a Political Prisoner:roll:

From BBC

Tibet's missing spiritual guide

A decade ago, a six-year-old boy was named by the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

Gedhun Choekyi Nyima was nominated as the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama - the second-most important figure in Tibetan religion, culture and politics after the Dalai Lama himself.

But China disagreed with the choice and arrested the boy a few days later.

Mystery surrounds his fate and outside China he is known as one of the world's youngest political prisoners.

China installed their own boy, Gyaincain Norbu, as the true 11th reincarnation of the Panchen Lama.

'Protective custody'
Campaigners say the child chosen by the Dalai Lama is held under house arrest somewhere in China, but details remain unknown.

Tibet's exiled leaders refuse to accept China's choice and call for Gedhun Choekyi Nyima to be released.
Historian Tsering Shakya of Oxford University said: "He virtually disappeared and the Chinese government took him under what they call protective custody."

Most Tibetans, experts say, wholeheartedly rejected the Chinese-chosen Panchen Lama.
Arjia Rinpoche, the abbot of Tibet's important Kumbum monastery now living in exile in the US, said the Dalai Lama's choice held sway with Tibetans.

"The Communist government still wants to promote their version of the Panchen Lama but 90% of the Tibetan people, they don't believe," he said.

Puppet?
The pictures displayed on the altar in Tibet's most celebrated temple - the Jokhang - are not those of China's choice for the 11th Panchen Lama.

Instead worshippers look at images of the face of the 10th Panchen Lama.

In public, they are too scared to explain why. But, in secret, they admit that no-one believes in Beijing's boy and many see him simply as a puppet of the Chinese state.

Government authorities are full of praise for the official Panchen Lama, describing him as clever, sharp and well-mannered.

State television broadcasts pictures of him dressed in his distinctive orange robes, being escorted into temples under the cover of darkness.

Future concern
The crisis sparked by the disappearance of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima has now reverberated through the Tibetan Buddhist community for a decade.

But, according to Tsering Shakya, a bigger crisis awaits the community. That will be sparked by the death of the Dalai Lama, now in his 60s.

Traditionally the Panchen Lama is key to recognising the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama.
Tsering Shakya said: "I think the Chinese government will try to go ahead and try to appoint their own candidate through the Panchen Lama."

Meanwhile the crisis has already claimed some very real victims, our correspondent says - both the boy groomed by Beijing but repudiated by his followers, and his counterpart, the young man judged as such a threat to Chinese control in Tibet that he was taken from view a decade ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4551425.stm

Another link from Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/08/china.worlddispatch

plato

02-16-2010, 03:39 AM

Ah yes, the classic "The Dalai Lama was an evil Nazi at age 12" argument from a Chinese user who very likely knows jack **** about the 1939 expedition to Tibet and its participants aside from the fact that they were funded by the SS. Have you decided to use MiddlePath's playbook now?

They also love to use a Nazi's diary to remember Naking massacre. Was Dalai Lama really 12 when he met the Nazis? I thought he was at most 10.

Mavet

02-16-2010, 03:55 AM

I have been using Google for ages, and most google users aren't happy at all with the current troubles.

The reason why DL had fled should be blamed on Mao, I have no objections with that, the kind of radical socialism experiment created horrifying pandemonium in all China.

And the current policies aren't without problems, it's not that I can't obtain a copy of Newsweek, i've been reading this and I know what should be done.

But I never think many of the govt policies are without problems: too focused on the Tibetan elites and lack of any special funding on things which doesn't create profit. What i mean by that is that some claiming Tibetan language is being ignored. True that ppl don't see much Tibetan publications nowadays while the qualities of Chinese books have risen very very fast (price is up as well). The reason, I see, is nowhere close to "kill their language", is because those publishing houses are crazy about getting its market into other provinces, and they don't see, whether he/she is a Han editor or Tibetan editor that they can earn loads of cash out of Tibetan language materials. So, to if they obtain license on translating some US bestsellers, do you think publishing them in Tibet will make money? No. That's most of the reasons behind the so called cultural genocide. It doesn't make profit. Just like during the old time, China has published lots of very good books on languages, but now they are all out of print, why? Do they make damn money out of those 'junk'? Hellz to the NO. So on those issues, the govt should REALLY think slightly less about GDP.

And I know about that another PL. He is probably taken and sent to those elite "Red Flag High School” in coastal China where some ethnic minority elite students were sent to study. Of course the govt won't let you see him.

For DL, i feel sorry for him, sometimes. But as long as he doesn't drop that 1/4 of China's territory under de facto suzerainty under the name of 'Genuine autonomy', there's no way out, i'm saying this on his behalf. Again, playing stuff with us, a nation written the bestseller The Art of War, isn't really that easy. The govt isn't stupid, they do aww aww aww like Schwarzenegger from time to time, that's because if they don't, the domestic audience will be angry, that they will face even more trouble, adding up 'corruption' as one on the top. And comparing with that, what the rest of the world think is just, so not important at all.

Plus, Mr Hulaku, you know in India media, there's so many articles about 'strategies on dealing with China using cards like Tibet', and I really don't buy that you care about .... human rights. Of course, there's only one pie for top dogs in the world, the US, EU, Russia, Japan, China are all devouring it, and India wants that of course, no prob. That's why majoring powers don't get along. But you know, it's ok to be hypocritical, international politics is the most hypocritical thing in the world.

But, that doesn't mean that I don't respect some patience of your nation. For example, India took so many refugees, Tibetans for example. Of course they can be useful when playing some strategic annoyance with China. However, if a bunches of refugees stuck in our country, no matter how they could be 'useful', ordinary people will be mad. Having seen my friends from Guangzhou complaining Nigerians increasing fast and some uni lecturers denouncing teaching unruly African students (true, they didn't start from primary school) are driving them crazy. I do, sincerely, appreciate you guys' patience.

dttk0009

02-16-2010, 05:10 AM

but you know, it's ok to be hypocritical, international politics is the most hypocritical thing in the world.
qft

12345678

hulaku

02-16-2010, 05:53 AM

Plus, Mr Hulaku, you know in India media, there's so many articles about 'strategies on dealing with China using cards like Tibet', and I really don't buy that you care about .... human rights.

I would like to point out that India has a FREE press which has the right and the freedom to publish and print news and opinions without getting them cleared from the local cell of the Propaganda department. There would obviously be different views and ideas on the country's approach to important matters like China and Tibet. You would probably agree that there is a lot on stake for India as well as to how the whole Tibet issue is handled by China.

As for my caring for Human Rights or not how would you know that? I think as an individual and not as a group of paid Internet posters who just keep on repeating the lies of some propaganda department. Yes Iam concerned that a 6 year old is kept as a political prisoner and hasnt been heard of for a very long time. Any normal human being would be concerned, irrespective of which country they belong to.

But, that doesn't mean that I don't respect some patience of your nation. For example, India took so many refugees, Tibetans for example. Of course they can be useful when playing some strategic annoyance with China. However, if a bunches of refugees stuck in our country, no matter how they could be 'useful', ordinary people will be mad. Having seen my friends from Guangzhou complaining Nigerians increasing fast and some uni lecturers denouncing teaching unruly African students (true, they didn't start from primary school) are driving them crazy. I do, sincerely, appreciate you guys' patience.

Your attempt at sarcasm is obvious in this statement.

And I dont want to derail this topic into a China - India flamewar.

hskywalker

02-16-2010, 08:32 AM

Do you have any links or sources on this information or are you spewing the usual Communist Party Propaganda? Comparing it to the Taliban is LOL.

No links. The world doesn't revolve around english. What surprised me is how westerners who don't understand chinese suddenly become China expert.

Taliban is better than slavery. Stoning women and cutting people's hands off sounds better than what tibetans used to practice. That's the "more barbaric and inhumane" parts.
Those weird *** stuff inherited from hindu religions, that's the "more disgusting" parts. You should know as a indian. Maybe that's why pakistan think they are more "pure" than hindus?

What parts dalai's clan is better than taliban? Less oppressive? Better with women's rights? Less child ***? More democratic?People can move freely?
Of course tibetans are peaceful, they didn't invade other countries. Neither did taliban invaded iran or parkistan or central asia.

So again, what parts of dalai's regime is better than taliban? Shouldn't some of those culture be totally wiped out, thus as cultural genocide?

hulaku

02-16-2010, 08:54 AM

No links. The world doesn't revolve around english. What surprised me is how westerners who don't understand chinese suddenly become China expert.
You make foolish statements and then blame English and westerners for it? If you have credible links in any language post it here or STFU? Understand.

Taliban is better than slavery. Stoning women and cutting people's hands off sounds better than what tibetans used to practice. That's the "more barbaric and inhumane" parts.
For me slavery is not getting to choose your leaders, no freedom of speech, no right to protest and having your lives governed by some sick old men clinging on to some failed ideaology.

Stoning women and chopping off hands sounds better than which Tibetan practice??? Again spewing CCP propaganda. Just an empty vessel making a lot of noise.

Those weird *** stuff inherited from hindu religions, that's the "more disgusting" parts. You should know as a indian. Maybe that's why pakistan think they are more "pure" than hindus?
Weird *** stuff inherited from Hindu religion?????? What are you talking about?? Kamasutra? If you think have multiple ****** positions and hightened ****** enjoyment is a worse crime then killing someone then you are sick. Or maybe ******ly disfunctional.

And also coming from you who reffered to me as an "A-san", a derogatory/racist Chinese word for Indians, when your boyfriend Shuimo got banned I am not surprised.

As for why Pakistan is called Pure please find out yourself.

What parts dalai's clan is better than taliban? Less oppressive? Better with women's rights? Less child ***? More democratic?People can move freely?
You talking about China or Tibet. Both are not democratic and people cannot move freely in both especially with all the Chinese restrictions on the Tibetans as well as foreigners visting Tibet.

Of course tibetans are peaceful, they didn't invade other countries. Neither did taliban invaded iran or parkistan or central asia.
So again, what parts of dalai's regime is better than taliban? Shouldn't some of those culture be totally wiped out, thus as cultural genocide?

Do you think before posting the nonsense that you post?

cn_habs

02-16-2010, 12:11 PM

Telling Obama not to meet with the Dalai Lama, 'aka' the thread topic.

Then get out of Tibet. Invading another country and then resettling hundreds of thousands of internal migrants (Han Chinese) is not natural assimilation.

That is part of his purpose, the other part was denied because of Chinese occupation and persecution. It sounds like your promoting violence as authority.

Where did you get "Tibetan socialites respected Hitlers success" from.... do you know how isolated Tibet was in those days? I think your making stuff up now. He escaped from prison into the hills, where he joined the Tibetan Buddhist community. He was not a serving SS officer from that point on AFAIK. Tibetan Buddhism predates the Nazi's by over a thousand years and you comparing the 2 is weak.

Sure it has. It was reported at the time by mainstream media, so again your 'aka' ignorant.

Discussing the Shugden (http://www.fpmt.org/organization/announcements/shugden/) issue is not what this thread is about, and those other pages are so full of c-rap that its not worth bothering with, the national geographic video really only highlites that the Tibetan's were polite and open to foreigners - whilst the Nazi's have always been twisting things the way they wanted. Dont start believing the Nazi propaganda just because your used to CCP propaganda.

Bunch of BS... Did you not see the images. Once you know how to use both of your eyes to see the reality, we should talk.

Harrer wasn't the only SS in question. DL went to the Nazi Germany and took pics with everyone in the SS b/c he was polite? Only if your innocent mind could digest all this courtesy meetings.

I wonder what the Jews could make of this holy god that addressed HITLER as "His Highness".

Mavet

02-16-2010, 12:19 PM

I would like to point out that India has a FREE press which has the right and the freedom to publish and print news and opinions without getting them cleared from the local cell of the Propaganda department. There would obviously be different views and ideas on the country's approach to important matters like China and Tibet. You would probably agree that there is a lot on stake for India as well as to how the whole Tibet issue is handled by China.

Your attempt at sarcasm is obvious in this statement.

And I dont want to derail this topic into a China - India flamewar.

Because I agree that you have some stakes, I will not give in at all. Because Tibet issue is like a zero-sum game.

I do think you guys are patient, not really a sarcastic statement.

plato

02-16-2010, 12:59 PM

BloodyTalon

02-16-2010, 02:22 PM

Bunch of BS... Did you not see the images. Once you know how to use both of your eyes to see the reality, we should talk.

Harrer wasn't the only SS in question. DL went to the Nazi Germany and took pics with everyone in the SS b/c he was polite? Only if your innocent mind could digest all this courtesy meetings.

I wonder what the Jews could make of this holy god that addressed HITLER as "His Highness".
If by "images" you mean one group photos of Harrer with Tibetans and a bunch of completely unrelated pictures of the DL and the Holocaust on a poorly designed website that also claims it knows "The secret truth about Oprah Winfrey and her connections to the CIA's child ***-slave MK-ULTRA Cult," then yes, we all saw that. And no, a piss poor website does not count as evidence just because it conveniently fits with PRC dogma.

Now I don't suppose you'll have a credible source that shows that the Dalai Lama was a staunch supporter of the Third Reich before he even hit puberty, or are you going to be like your butt-buddy hskywalker and claim that "links" and "academic sources" are evil Western machinations that only impede the glorious truth that your government tells you.

clue

02-16-2010, 10:19 PM

No links. The world doesn't revolve around english. What surprised me is how westerners who don't understand chinese suddenly become China expert.

A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and London: 1996)

Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1961)

Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998)

Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989)

These will back up most of what you pro-China folks have said, except the Harrar-Gyatso-Nazi thing, Harrar only wrote a book on his perspective in Tibet, that's all.

Then there's this.
http://hotnhitnews.com/first_military_assult_on_Tibet_by_Dr_Nachiketa_Das_n_Mrs_Sizuka_Imamoto_001_09012.htm

The brits tried to take Tibet too.

"Invasion of Tibet
Major Younghusband and his Brigadier-General James R L McDonald led the vast British force from the capital of Sikkim, Gangtok, on the 11th of December 1903 to invade Tibet. At the outskirts of the village of Khamba Dzong located some 25 km inside the Tibetan border, the local Tibetan governmental officials begged the British to halt, while they sought permission from Lhasa for them to proceed further. The British did accede to the requests of the Tibetan officials, and waited for nearly four months only to learn that the Thirteenth Dalai Lama and his retinue of monks in Lhasa had no desire to meet with them. Younghusband was irritated to say the least, but retreated none the less to confer with Curzon back in India. Curzon contacted the British government led by the Prime Minister Arthur James Balfour, and received authorisation to invade Lhasa, by using whatever force necessary."

ren0312

02-16-2010, 11:57 PM

A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and London: 1996)

Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1961)

Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998)

Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989)

These will back up most of what you pro-China folks have said, except the Harrar-Gyatso-Nazi thing, Harrar only wrote a book on his perspective in Tibet, that's all.

Then there's this.
http://hotnhitnews.com/first_military_assult_on_Tibet_by_Dr_Nachiketa_Das_n_Mrs_Sizuka_Imamoto_001_09012.htm

The brits tried to take Tibet too.

"Invasion of Tibet
Major Younghusband and his Brigadier-General James R L McDonald led the vast British force from the capital of Sikkim, Gangtok, on the 11th of December 1903 to invade Tibet. At the outskirts of the village of Khamba Dzong located some 25 km inside the Tibetan border, the local Tibetan governmental officials begged the British to halt, while they sought permission from Lhasa for them to proceed further. The British did accede to the requests of the Tibetan officials, and waited for nearly four months only to learn that the Thirteenth Dalai Lama and his retinue of monks in Lhasa had no desire to meet with them. Younghusband was irritated to say the least, but retreated none the less to confer with Curzon back in India. Curzon contacted the British government led by the Prime Minister Arthur James Balfour, and received authorisation to invade Lhasa, by using whatever force necessary."

Is the US willing to risk World War 3 over Tibet?

hulaku

02-17-2010, 12:23 AM

These will back up most of what you pro-China folks have said, except the Harrar-Gyatso-Nazi thing, Harrar only wrote a book on his perspective in Tibet, that's all.

I was referring to the statement that Tibetian practices were worse and more disgusting than Taliban. Give me links for that.

And all your links are books. Do you expect anyone to go through all the books you have quoted here? You want me to quote a hundred books about the rich culture of Tibet and how it was systematically overtaken by the communists and about the cultural genocide in Tibet.

Then there's this.
http://hotnhitnews.com/first_military_assult_on_Tibet_by_Dr_Nachiketa_Das_n_Mrs_Sizuka_Imamoto_001_09012.htm

An article on the Invasion of Tibet by the British by an Indian and a Japanese (Two of the most beloved people for the Chinese:)). Nothing new here, at that time the Empire was reaching its peak, they just wanted more.

cn_habs

02-17-2010, 12:37 AM

I was referring to the statement that Tibetian practices were worse and more disgusting than Taliban. Give me links for that.

And all your links are books. Do you expect anyone to go through all the books you have quoted here? You want me to quote a hundred books about the rich culture of Tibet and how it was systematically overtaken by the communists and about the cultural genocide in Tibet.

An article on the Invasion of Tibet by the British by an Indian and a Japanese (Two of the most beloved people for the Chinese:)). Nothing new here, at that time the Empire was reaching its peak, they just wanted more.

http://revcom.us/a/125/tibet-background-en.html
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0861549.html
http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notebooks/tibet.html (http://cscs.umich.edu/%7Ecrshalizi/notebooks/tibet.html)

Different media from various countries have recognized the fact that there was an islolated theocracy with most of the population being serfs. How is buddist theocracy not worse than Chinese communism? Don't be ridiculous.

We'll spare you of the brutal images for the time being.

Look up the definition in the dictionary and ask yourself why your so called "a goddamn saint" like that can be at the head of such a society that only exploits its own people. Unless you have a better answer, you need to stfu.

hulaku

02-17-2010, 01:01 AM

Different media from various countries have recognized the fact that there was an islolated theocracy with most of the population being serfs.
I agree that it was a religious theocracy but the isolation part was also due to the geography of Tibet which I think you would understand. IIRC China also had an isolationist policy where foreigners were discouraged from visiting China. China was ruled by a God Emperor and as a feature of medieval societies serfs/ peasants were never in good standing whether in Tibet, China or India. How can Tibet be singled out for the exploitation of serfs and only the Lamas blamed for it?

I would suggest that you really want to know how the Tibetian way of life visit Ladakh, Zanskar or Spiti in India where the Tibetian communities still live in complete freedom and harmony without any interference of the Government. These are the last enclaves where free Tibetian Buddhism is practiced till today.

How is buddist theocracy not worse than Chinese communism? Don't be ridiculous.
You seem to have reading and comprehension problems. I was referring to the comparison with Taliban. Anyway a theocracy whether Buddhist or Communist is still theocracy. And talking of theocracy the Chinese Communist Party supports the absolute autocracy of Lil Kim in North Korea.

We'll spare you of the brutal images for the time being.

Brutal images of what?

Look up the definition in the dictionary and ask yourself why your so called "a goddamn saint" like that can be at the head of such a society that only exploits its own people. Unless you have a better answer, you need to stfu.
But a Communist Party with a capitalist agenda for the elite and its exploitation of its own people is OK?

cn_habs

02-17-2010, 01:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEghicZKEVI&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LMSo9R3VTQ&feature=related

No offense to you but FREE Tibetian Buddhism? Don't BS me. The worst CCP will do is capital punishment not arm/leg cutting kind a la Tibetan. The Nazis called this Medival Europe. Does it equal to freedom or any rights for the poor? I can go to everywhere I want within China without having asking permission from my master to unlock my metals chains. The majority of us never starved to death.

Chinese theocracy >>Tibetan theocracy

But a Communist Party with a capitalist agenda for the elite and its exploitation of its own people is OK?Give me a major society that isn't? India? US? Canada? Russia? Grow up and accept that you can't change human nature.

Like I said before, people like me I will BEAR any party/regime that can transform a completely bankrupt and war-torn country with 400M dead poor inhabitants into arguably the 2nd most influencial country after Uncle Sam in 60 years. I didn't have to starve every night which wasn't the case for my grandparents and parents. According to UN, extreme poverty is practically inexistent in China and only 8 % of Chinese children under 3 live in poor conditions by UN standards. If the rest of the world can accomplish as much such as feeding 20% of world population with 7% of the cultivable land, the world would not have been so unstable and ****ed up. No one has accomplied as much.

When 46% Indian babies under 3 don't starve to death by UN standards, you can come here and lecture us on what's right and wrong.

plato

02-17-2010, 01:38 AM

No offense to you but FREE Tibetian Buddhism? Don't BS me. The worst CCP will do is capital punishment not arm/leg cutting kind a la Tibetan. The Nazis called this Medival Europe. Does it equal to freedom?

Give me a major society that isn't? India? US? Canada? Russia? Grow up and accept that you can't change human nature.

Like I said before, people like me I will BEAR any party/regime that can transform a completely bankrupt and war-torn country with 400M dead poor inhabitants into arguably the 2nd most influencial country after Uncle Sam in 60 years. I didn't have to starve every night which wasn't the case for my grandparents and parents. According to UN, extreme poverty is practically inexistent in China and only 8 % of Chinese children under 3 live in poor conditions by UN standards. If the rest of the world can accomplish as much such as feeding 20% of world population with 7% of the cultivable land, the world would not have been so unstable and ****ed up. No one has accomplied as much.

Hey! You do know Tibetan societies do exist outside of China, right? And they gave up the slave thing on their own! with no help from you Chinese. Also, you do know societies change over time, right? Like how blacks used to drink from different ....etc...But, we changed that here in US. As far as I know, there were at least hundreds of slaves inside China two years ago. Free your own slaves first.

TheMiddlePath

02-17-2010, 01:48 AM

I think I heard the term "God-King" in one of those video's cn_habs posted but I guess it could be used although technically wrong. Being basically the physical incarnation of the pursuit of Compassion doesnt take away that he had to learn and practise being physically within a new body.... so I bet he had plenty of helpers making the decisions until he older

I know a bit about Buddhist, OK. You could reincarnate into a Monkey. What then ?

clue

02-17-2010, 02:08 AM

You want me to quote a hundred books about the rich culture of Tibet and how it was systematically overtaken by the communists and about the cultural genocide in Tibet.

http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=2732

Eventine

02-17-2010, 03:57 AM

Tibet has been part of China since Yuan dynasty. Dalai Lama title was bestowed by a Chinese emperor.

Not really, but historic claims mean next to nothing in the modern world. It is as you say:

Nations with strong sovereignty does not practice self-determination, that's enforced on losers by winners, the purpose is to weaken a competitor nation(s).

It doesn't matter whether or not Tibet was a feudal society, or Tenzin Gyatso is some embodiment of Hollywood propaganda. Those tidbits are irrelevant.Tibet will be free when Tibet is strong enough to free itself, or when China is too weak to retain it in the face of foreign pressure, whichever comes first. Even a Tibet that is 99% Han Chinese can be detached from China if the power doing the detaching is strong enough. On the other hand, as long as China is strong, Tibet is unlikely to leave China's hands, and the stronger China is, the more true this becomes. That is the reality of the world.

hulaku

02-17-2010, 04:24 AM

When 46% Indian babies under 3 don't starve to death by UN standards, you can come here and lecture us on what's right and wrong.

You seriously mean to say that half of the babies born in India die before the age of three due to starvation???? Links/ Source.

Anyway your attitude just reflects the attitude of the CCP elite who deride and discriminate against the poor in China. Get used to free Air of Democracy you currently enjoy in Canada, where people irrespective of whether they are rich or poor have the freedom to put their views through and not being derided for being poor or being originally from a poor country.

hskywalker

02-17-2010, 04:46 AM

No doubt tibetans can live a modern life. If returned to power, dalai may actually do well in tibet.

Nazi fugitives can also adapt to modern society, live a peaceful life, helping neighbors, repent on whatever crime they have done, renoucing nazi ideas in heart, turning into a good person. But they are still nazi fugitives.
Dalai's clan had the chance to change, were given the opputunity. Dalai didn't flee tibet because of pla in tibet in 1950, he fled tibet when land reform are performed and serfs are freed several years later. They were against abolishment of slavery. They may have changed their mind now, but it doesn't really matters anymore, they won't be given a second chance. Dalai will die in exile as the last dalai lama.

Almost all tyrant in exile suddenly repent what they have done, and began loving their people. "What if I have...." Too bad they didn't realize that when in power.

LineDoggie

02-17-2010, 09:00 AM

Hell of a Stretch to compare the Dalai Lama to Nazi Fugitives, Only a Chicom could make that without laughing.

hulaku

02-17-2010, 09:07 AM

Hell of a Stretch to compare the Dalai Lama to Nazi Fugitives, Only a Chicom could make that without laughing.

Not only to the Nazis but the Taliban as well.:)

I wonder what they are taught at school.

Caoriben

02-17-2010, 09:22 AM

Unmasking the real Dalai Lama

Who is the real Dalai Lama? With a role for every occasion – holy man, politician, international statesman, simple monk, pop icon, Buddhist Pope, socialist, movie star, autocrat, democrat, Marxist, humanitarian, environmentalist, Nobel Peace prize winner, nationalist, Buddha of Compassion, communist, God-King – the Dalai Lama weaves a complex web of religion and politics that entraps his audiences wherever he goes. Nobody has ever seen anything like it. People are easily swayed by the historical mystique of Tibet and its ‘God-King’, and feel captivated and convinced by his charm. When journalists refuse to have their questions waved away with a chuckle and a smile, they are able to penetrate through the veneer and see the real face of the Dalai Lama. As these articles indicate, it isn't the pretty face we are accustomed to.
The Scotsman

The Dark Side of the Dalai Lama (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dark-side-dalai-lama/)

To much of the Western world he is the very embodiment of kindness and peace, a gentle robed figure of great wisdom and limitless virtue. Feted by politicians, pop stars and Hollywood stars, the seemingly undisputed spiritual and political… MORE... (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dark-side-dalai-lama/)
National Catholic Reporter

The Dalai Lama is No Gandhi (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dalai-lama-no-gandhi/)

If you’ve ever had suspicions that the Dalai Lama is a lightweight, suspect no more. He is.

Recently finishing a U.S. lecture tour that attracted rockconcert crowds in major cities, the 68-year-old Tibetan Buddhist came up against a… MORE... (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dalai-lama-no-gandhi/)
The Age (Melbourne)

Behind the Dalai Lama’s Holy Cloak (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/behind-dalai-lama-mask/)

Rarely do journalists challenge the Dalai Lama.

Partly it is because he is so charming and engaging. Most published accounts of him breeze on as airily as the subject, for whom a good giggle and a quaint parable… MORE... (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/behind-dalai-lama-mask/)
Die Suddeutsche Zeitung

A Politician in Monk’s Robes (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/politician-in-monks-robes/)

According to the Constitution of the Tibetan Government in Exile, enacted in the Tibetan year 2218 (1991), the Dalai Lama is the lord over the executive and the legislative. Nothing goes in the world of the Tibetan Exiles without… MORE... (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/politician-in-monks-robes/)
Spiked Magazine

Is the Dalai Lama a Religious Dictator? (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dalai-lama-religious-dictator/)

The state of denial in the West about some of the Dalai Lama’s alleged power-tripping, or at least the unquestioning attitude towards the Dalai Lama and everything that he does, highlights the role that he plays for many Western… MORE... (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/dalai-lama-religious-dictator/)

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/press/coverage/unmasking-the-real-dalai-lama/

Dalai Lama, Tibet, and Nazi Germany Collaboration

This illuminating National Geographic documentary reveals the "mutual understanding" that was established between Tibet and Nazi Germany during Ernst Shafer's expeditions. Shafer, an SS Officer, acted as a go between for the "Eastern and Western Swastikas". With imagery of the medieval conditions endured by ordinary Tibetans, including the fear-mongering monk police, this documentary opens a window to the Tibet that the Dalai Lama and his cronies would like to keep hidden from the world.
Previous Video (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-slaves/) Next Video (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-family-business/)

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-nazi-collaboration/

cn_habs

02-17-2010, 09:46 AM

You seriously mean to say that half of the babies born in India die before the age of three due to starvation???? Links/ Source.

Anyway your attitude just reflects the attitude of the CCP elite who deride and discriminate against the poor in China. Get used to free Air of Democracy you currently enjoy in Canada, where people irrespective of whether they are rich or poor have the freedom to put their views through and not being derided for being poor or being originally from a poor country.

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/sep/17/slide-show-1-3000-kids-die-of-malnutrition-everyday.htm
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=7Sl&q=india+kids+46&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

When did I become a socialite? Hilarious! My point was my life was 1000x better than my parents who used to starve every night when they were young b/c simply of shortage of food. The Chinese government has been able to provide to the fundamental needs to the human being.

Having the right to speak publicly means NADA when you let half of the kids under the age of freaking 3 years old suffer. 3000 are dying on a daily basis b/c of something that the government can easily deal with. A real man's duty is to provide security and put food on the table for his family before he worries about democracy. And all your India media is worried about is to create sinophobia in India.

I only look upon the best and learn them, not the ones below me. Had Tibet been an Indian territory, half of them would be have starved to death and live under extreme poor conditions. In Chinese reign however, their local population has more than doubled and most of them have access to health care, electricity and food which keep them ALIVE.

Most importantly, they don't get their arms chopped off and are no longer chained. Neither do they have to answer to their religious masters anymore.

LineDoggie

02-17-2010, 09:52 AM

The Bugles must have blown, the Chicom hordes have arrived to compare the Lama to the Nazi's.......

BloodyTalon

02-17-2010, 10:53 AM

The Bugles must have blown, the Chicom hordes have arrived to compare the Lama to the Nazi's.......
x2. Full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.

clue

02-17-2010, 12:57 PM

Tibet will be free when Tibet is strong enough to free itself, or when China is too weak to retain it in the face of foreign pressure, whichever comes first. Even a Tibet that is 99% Han Chinese can be detached from China if the power doing the detaching is strong enough. On the other hand, as long as China is strong, Tibet is unlikely to leave China's hands, and the stronger China is, the more true this becomes. That is the reality of the world.

Which makes all this "Free Tibet" nonsense pointless and hypocritical. But as long as it gives liberal greenies something to make themselves look stupid, all the more merrier.

Nazi fugitives can also adapt to modern society, live a peaceful life, helping neighbors, repent on whatever crime they have done, renoucing nazi ideas in heart, turning into a good person. But they are still nazi fugitives.

Dalai's clan had the chance to change, were given the opputunity. Dalai didn't flee tibet because of pla in tibet in 1950, he fled tibet when land reform are performed and serfs are freed several years later. They were against abolishment of slavery. They may have changed their mind now, but it doesn't really matters anymore, they won't be given a second chance. Dalai will die in exile as the last dalai lama.

Your last paragraph is corrected and verifiable by historians, but you need to stop comparing Gyatso to Nazis, it's destroying your credibility. The only connection Gyatso had to Nazi was Harrer, a lowly Nazi sergeant, that's it.

rkpo

02-17-2010, 07:13 PM

x2. Full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.

Sad thing is they probably believe it.

dttk0009

02-17-2010, 09:26 PM

Sad thing is they probably believe it.
The only sad thing is that they're the only ones providing sources and actual arguments in a political discussion forum while you guys crap out ad hominems as your sole line of defense in the debate. If they're so obviously wrong and biased (which is a given on a discussion forum, the point is not to be neutral) why not just present a counter argument? What are you getting out of these continued personal, misinformed and misplaced attacks?

BloodyTalon

02-17-2010, 09:31 PM

The only sad thing is that they're the only ones providing sources and actual arguments in a political discussion forum while you guys crap out ad hominems as your sole line of defense in the debate. If they're so obviously wrong and biased (which is a given on a discussion forum, the point is not to be neutral) why not just present a counter argument? What are you getting out of these continued personal, misinformed and misplaced attacks?
yeah, cuz calling the Dalai Lama a Nazi and either posting a website that looks like something a 7 year old made in the 90's or an unending stream of links to an organization specifically created to oppose the Dalai Lama and spread the aforementioned Nazi accusations qualifies as an "actual argument".

LineDoggie

02-17-2010, 09:37 PM

Well lets see

Hitler
Conquered Western Europe
Killed 20 million + in a war on land and sea, air

Dalai Lama
Conquered no country
Killed no one

Yeah they are soooooo Comparable, Dttk...........

dttk0009

02-17-2010, 09:43 PM

yeah, cuz calling the Dalai Lama a Nazi and either posting a website that looks like something a 7 year old made in the 90's or an unending stream of links to an organization specifically created to oppose the Dalai Lama and spread the aforementioned Nazi accusations qualifies as an "actual argument".
Yes, and? Get your own sources and refute the argument. That's what a debate is. You think he's going to get his information from sites that are inherently PRO DL? His argument isn't how awesome the guy is, of course his sources are going to have some bad things to say about him, and there's plenty of other sources out there which say only good things about him. If his argument is so easy to diffused as you say it is why not just do it. I really would love to see a counter argument (and I mean that with sincerity) instead of these debates just getting heated and then the thread getting locked because people start flinging insults.

rkpo

02-17-2010, 09:52 PM

LineDoggie

02-17-2010, 09:57 PM

Lets not forget, the Chicom propogate that the Dalia Lama is evil and the people in Tibet were under the heel of an Oppressive Government and Leader.

This in the Time of Mao, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution had killed millions and sent Millions more to prisons.

And yet the Chicom POV doesnt take that into account. IF the Tibetans lived badly under the Lama, they surely lived worse under Mao and the Chicoms.

BloodyTalon

02-17-2010, 10:17 PM

Yes, and? Get your own sources and refute the argument. That's what a debate is. You think he's going to get his information from sites that are inherently PRO DL? His argument isn't how awesome the guy is, of course his sources are going to have some bad things to say about him, and there's plenty of other sources out there which say only good things about him. If his argument is so easy to diffused as you say it is why not just do it. I really would love to see a counter argument (and I mean that with sincerity) instead of these debates just getting heated and then the thread getting locked because people start flinging insults.
The only fact that the "sources" present is that a government-funded expedition that was ostensibly meant to forward the Nazi agenda of racial purity met with a young Dalai Lama. What they don't show is irrefutable proof that that makes the Dalai Lama a staunch supporter of Nazism. And no, coming into contact with the Nazis does not automatically make someone a Nazi. If that were the case, Neville Chamberlain, J.R.R Tolkien, the Von Trapp family, NASA, and a good chunk of the caucasian and mestizo population of Guatemala are all monstrous blackshirts comparable to Amon Goeth.

Also, regardless of the source, they all erroneously treat everyone in the SS as nothing more than a cabal of jack-booted demons who killed Jews in between listening to Wagner and brooding menacingly in their black dress uniforms. While no one is going to deny the horrible crimes committed by the SS, what few people realized was that before the war a few civilian sectors of the organization were treated as little more than social clubs that would provide you with upward mobility in German academic and social society provided the Nazi leadership viewed your actions as part of the forwarding their cause. In the case of Ernst Shafer, Heinrich Harrer, and arguably most of the expedition, they used in the SS as a blank check to allow them to practice their hobbies or personal scientific endevours in a region of the globe that was otherwise unattainable to anyone not supported by either a government or major academic organization. Only Dr. Beger had a clear political agenda, but the evidence and experiments he performed, aside from being laughably unscientific like the rest of Eugenics, ended up running contrary to the Aryan and Nordic mythos that Himmler and the like were preaching to the high heavens about.

clue

02-17-2010, 11:04 PM

The fact is that China did and still does much worse then Tibet ever did - surely you do not need sources for that since its common knowledge.

Flat earth was common knowledge in the 1500s. Since it's supposedly common knowledge, how about EVIDENCE for the comparison between Tibet under Dalai Lama and Tibet under China from accredited historians?

Lets not forget, the Chicom propogate that the Dalia Lama is evil and the people in Tibet were under the heel of an Oppressive Government and Leader.

All verified by credible historians, maybe not the "evil" part, but the theocratic sect is oppressive to Tibetan serfs.

This in the Time of Mao, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution had killed millions and sent Millions more to prisons.

And yet the Chicom POV doesnt take that into account. IF the Tibetans lived badly under the Lama, they surely lived worse under Mao and the Chicoms.

It doesn't need to be taken into account, Tibet was relatively isolated from the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

dttk0009

02-17-2010, 11:09 PM

The only fact that the "sources" present is that a government-funded expedition that was ostensibly meant to forward the Nazi agenda of racial purity met with a young Dalai Lama. What they don't show is irrefutable proof that that makes the Dalai Lama a staunch supporter of Nazism. And no, coming into contact with the Nazis does not automatically make someone a Nazi. If that were the case, Neville Chamberlain, J.R.R Tolkien, the Von Trapp family, NASA, and a good chunk of the caucasian and mestizo population of Guatemala are all monstrous blackshirts comparable to Amon Goeth.

Also, regardless of the source, they all erroneously treat everyone in the SS as nothing more than a cabal of jack-booted demons who killed Jews in between listening to Wagner and brooding menacingly in their black dress uniforms. While no one is going to deny the horrible crimes committed by the SS, what few people realized was that before the war a few civilian sectors of the organization were treated as little more than social clubs that would provide you with upward mobility in German academic and social society provided the Nazi leadership viewed your actions as part of the forwarding their cause. In the case of Ernst Shafer, Heinrich Harrer, and arguably most of the expedition, they used in the SS as a blank check to allow them to practice their hobbies or personal scientific endevours in a region of the globe that was otherwise unattainable to anyone not supported by either a government or major academic organization. Only Dr. Beger had a clear political agenda, but the evidence and experiments he performed, aside from being laughably unscientific like the rest of Eugenics, ended up running contrary to the Aryan and Nordic mythos that Himmler and the like were preaching to the high heavens about.
I appreciate the extensive reply and I agree with you about the Nazi angle being put on the DL, though I do have to say that NASA was a bit more than just 'coming into contact' with nazis, or former nazis in the late 40's. ;)
I do sincerely believe that living conditions under the pre-communist Tibet were horrific and that while the great leap forward didn't do them any favors in the short run, it certainly helped develop the region in more ways than it destroyed it. Look at photos of Lhasa now. It has paved roads, electricity, phone lines, running water, proper housing etc. It really seems unlikely that any of these things would have been developed in a repressive, feudalistic state.

hulaku

02-18-2010, 01:44 AM

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/sep/17/slide-show-1-3000-kids-die-of-malnutrition-everyday.htm
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=7Sl&q=india+kids+46&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Again your reading and comprehension disability is shining through.
Malnourished=/=Starving to death.
Do a little reading before posting bull crap statements.

When did I become a socialite? Hilarious! My point was my life was 1000x better than my parents who used to starve every night when they were young b/c simply of shortage of food.
You are now in Canada and I can understand your life would be better living in the free west, than what it was for your parents in China.

The Chinese government has been able to provide to the fundamental needs to the human being.
Fundamental needs like food, clothing and housing. What about freedom of speech, electing your leaders, freedom to protest without being massacered by Army tanks etc. Even criminals in prisons are provided food, clothing and housing, does that make their life perfect?????

Having the right to speak publicly means NADA when you let half of the kids under the age of freaking 3 years old suffer. 3000 are dying on a daily basis b/c of something that the government can easily deal with. A real man's duty is to provide security and put food on the table for his family before he worries about democracy.
Its a democratically elected Government and will go if it doesnt do what the people want. Simple. We have the power to change our Government. As for a real man's duties see the point I have made above.

And all your India media is worried about is to create sinophobia in India.
It is not my Indian media and it has the freedom to say whatever they want to say as they do not have to go through Government sensors. Ah the freedom of living in a democracy. Something you should understand as you left the Land of Mao to be safely ensconed in the west.

I only look upon the best and learn them, not the ones below me. Had Tibet been an Indian territory, half of them would be have starved to death and live under extreme poor conditions. In Chinese reign however, their local population has more than doubled and most of them have access to health care, electricity and food which keep them ALIVE.
If their life is so comfortable then why are refugees still streaming into India and Nepal??? You do remember the video of poor Tibetians getting shot by the PLA mercilessly while trying to cross into Nepal?? Why would they take such risks if life was all Milk and Honey in Tibet due to the blessing of the Communist overlords?

Most importantly, they don't get their arms chopped off and are no longer chained. Neither do they have to answer to their religious masters anymore.
But they have to answer to the Communist masters sitting in Beijing eh? Seems not much has changed.

clue

02-18-2010, 02:14 AM

You are now in Canada and I can understand your life would be better living in the free west, than what it was for your parents in China.

I think he meant that in China, his life is 1000x better than his parents, in China.

I believe in the eyes of the regular Chinese, the CCP has done more in 60 years than any previous government of China. Sure there's problems, but who's road to industrialization wasn't marred by issues like pollution and labor issues? Nobody.

Fundamental needs like food, clothing and housing. What about freedom of speech, electing your leaders, freedom to protest without being massacered by Army tanks etc. Even criminals in prisons are provided food, clothing and housing, does that make their life perfect?????

Its a democratically elected Government and will go if it doesnt do what the people want. Simple. We have the power to change our Government. As for a real man's duties see the point I have made above.

It is not my Indian media and it has the freedom to say whatever they want to say as they do not have to go through Government sensors. Ah the freedom of living in a democracy. Something you should understand as you left the Land of Mao to be safely ensconed in the west.

It's a little more complicated than plain ole "freedom of speech", electing leaders, and protest aren't exactly banned in China either. "Democracy" isn't by default the rigueur du jour.

rkpo

02-18-2010, 06:31 AM

Flat earth was common knowledge in the 1500s. Since it's supposedly common knowledge, how about EVIDENCE for the comparison between Tibet under Dalai Lama and Tibet under China from accredited historians?

It isnt hard is it to grasp how 'common knowledge' would be hugely different between now and the 1500's. :cantbeli:
Your example of flat earth today would be equivilant to something along the lines of Quantum Mechanics which is even more OT then a Nazi link to the Dalai Lama.

Your twisting my words as well, I said it is common knowledge China has and still does behave far worse then Tibet has or does. Living 'conditions' prior to the modern Chinese invasion compared to living conditions now isn't really being discussed AFAIK, but the Tibetan culture is deeply spiritual and China doesnt want to understand that the Dalai Lama plays a role in this spirituality.

In other news, the Dalai Lama has landed in the USA. I hope he has a safe trip with all these loony CCP zombies seemingly everywhere these dayz!

yydebox1

02-18-2010, 10:49 AM

Looks like people forget their own problems recently.

clue

02-18-2010, 01:27 PM

Your twisting my words as well, I said it is common knowledge China has and still does behave far worse then Tibet has or does. Living 'conditions' prior to the modern Chinese invasion compared to living conditions now isn't really being discussed AFAIK, but the Tibetan culture is deeply spiritual and China doesnt want to understand that the Dalai Lama plays a role in this spirituality.

Again, where's your evidence? No serious Tibetologist (even the pro-Free Tibet ones) will dispute the harsh backward feudal theocratic state of Tibet before the Chinese occupation.

As for not understanding the "spirituality" of the Dalai Lama, the first Dalai Lama was instituted by the Chinese 7 centuries ago during the Yuan dynasty, how exactly does China "doesn't want" to understand the "spirituality"?

You say the Chinese behave far worse then Tibet has or does. But acamedic researchers, like this one for example, disagrees.

http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=2732

Sautman chose to focus his presentation on a refutation of the claims made by some Tibetan exiles that the Chinese are pursuing a policy of "cultural genocide" in Tibet. Levine suggested that this was a bit of a straw man and that most exiles are concerned more with issues of lagging development. On specific issues Sautman made the following case.

Rival Views on Tibetan Sovereignty
The Chinese government and the Tibetan exiles in India, led by the Dalai Lama, have diametrically opposed views of the rights of Tibetans to independence. The Chinese claim that Tibet was a Chinese province for eight centuries and that the Dalai Lama has forfeited his spiritual and temporal leadership because he is a separatist. The Tibetans in exile call Tibet a colony of China. This view, Sautman said, "Is widely accepted in the West. It has resonance in the West in the post-Holocaust period." In contrast, he argued, "The problems of Tibetans are typical of minorities in the era of large modern states."

It is true, he said, that there have been significant inroads of Chinese culture into Tibet since the forcible takeover in 1959, but there has been an even greater influx of Western culture. "By not defining cultural genocide the Tibetan exiles can label any changes from 1959 as cultural genocide, although many of these changes could be expected to have occurred without the issue of cultural genocide arising."

The most common specific charges raised by Tibetan exiles, Sautman said, "point to Han immigration plus restrictive birth policies. In fact the state sponsored transfer to Tibet is on a small scale. From 1994 to 2001 the PRC organized only a few thousand people to go to Tibet as cadres. Most serve only 3 years and then return to China. Those who move on their own to the Tibet Autonomous Region usually return to China in a few years. They come for a while, find the cities of Tibet too expensive, and then return to China. Some of the 72,000 Chinese who maintain their hukou [household registration] in Tibet don't really live there. Pensions are higher if your household is registered in Tibet. These facts are supported by Australian and U.S. demographers. Claims of ethnic swamping in Tibet are misleading."

Chinese Policies on Tibetan Birth Rates
The Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), Soutman said, "encourages Tibetans to limit their families to 3 children. The local government townships have the power to impose small fines for more than 3 children. One study showed that in 3 of 4 studied townships no fine was imposed on a birth issue and only very small fines in the fourth. Tibetan families in Tibet average 3.8 children, larger than Tibetan families in India. Han families with more than one child face much harsher penalties. In 1990 Tibetans were 95% of the Tibetan population. There has been no dramatic change in the region's ethnic balance."

Exiles also claim that birth policies are repressive against Tibetans in regions of China proper where they are significant minorities, such as in Qinghai and Gansu. "This is not sustained by available statistics," Sautman insisted. "The percent of Tibetans in Qinghai has shown no significant change from 1950 to 2000. Restriction on family size is harsher for the majority than for the minority and the effects have not changed the percent of Tibetans in the Qinghai population. This is hardly cultural genocide."

Émigrés complain of restrictions on the minimum age of monks and nuns and on affiliation with the Dalai Lama. Sautman countered by saying that China claims there are more than 2,000 Tibetan Buddhist monasteries. "I have visited many of these and they are all active religious communities. The Chinese government in the remote far west actually encourages people to join monasteries to have people to take care of ethnic relics."
Sautman said that there is now 1 monk or nun for every 35 Tibetans, "the highest of any Buddhist country in the world, and much higher than the relation of ministers and priests to parishioners in any Christian country in the world, where the ratio is often 1 to 1,000. Chinese law says you have to be 18 to become a monk, but in practice there are often much younger monks."

Status of the Tibetan Language
Sautman also sought to rebut charges by Tibetan exiles that the Tibetan language is devalued and being replaced by Chinese. "92-94% of ethnic Tibetans speak Tibetan. The only exception is places in Qinghai and Amdo where the Tibetan population is very small compared with the broader population. Instruction in primary school is pretty universally in Tibetan. Chinese is bilingual from secondary school onward. All middle schools in the TAR also teach Tibetan. In Lhasa there are about equal time given to Chinese, Tibetan, and English." In contrast, Soutman said, "Tibetan exile leaders in India used English as the sole language until 1994 and only became bilingual in 1994. Schools in Tibet promote the Tibetan language more than Indian schools do in ethnic Tibetan areas--in Ladakh, India, instruction is in Urdu, with a high dropout rate from Tibetans, but India is never accused of cultural genocide against Tibetans."

There is an upsurge of the performing arts, poetry and painting by Tibetans, Sautman told the audience. "The exile leaders claim that the Chinese officials suppress Tibetan themes. In exile the Tibetan arts often introduce non-Tibetan themes, but there is no accusation of cultural genocide. Vices such as prostitution are not unique to Tibet under Chinese rule but are common throughout Buddhist lands. There are few aspects of Chinese culture in Tibet, but there are many aspects of Western culture, such as jeans, disco music, etc. The exile Tibetans do not condemn the growth of Western influence at the expense of traditional Tibetan culture."

cn_habs

02-18-2010, 04:47 PM

I appreciate the extensive reply and I agree with you about the Nazi angle being put on the DL, though I do have to say that NASA was a bit more than just 'coming into contact' with nazis, or former nazis in the late 40's. ;-)
I do sincerely believe that living conditions under the pre-communist Tibet were horrific and that while the great leap forward didn't do them any favors in the short run, it certainly helped develop the region in more ways than it destroyed it. Look at photos of Lhasa now. It has paved roads, electricity, phone lines, running water, proper housing etc. It really seems unlikely that any of these things would have been developed in a repressive, feudalistic state.

What else is there to say. The poster summed up everything.

cn_habs

02-18-2010, 04:53 PM

Again your reading and comprehension disability is shining through.
Malnourished=/=Starving to death.
Do a little reading before posting bull crap statements.

I said "starving to death", not dead. It's an expression to describe extreme hunger.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1421393.ece

Even according to UN STANDARDS, "MALNUTRITION" was used TO NOT HURT YOUR FEELINGS. It's not politally correct to say the blunt truth. To the eye of the West, that's extreme poverty and malnutrition. Why don't you go to those poor villages and see.

The Americans at least have accomplished a lot so if they want to critize us so be it. But Indians? All you can be proud of is Indian democracy while your kids starve and 3000 of them die everyday. Your government is so busying promoting democracy and don't think about the future.

You are now in Canada and I can understand your life would be better living in the free west, than what it was for your parents in China. WTF? I was refering about my childhood in China. Had I been born later, my life would have been even better. As a matter of fact, I had more liberties in China than in Canada. I actually lost lots of priviledges at the expense of cleaner air and more reputable higher-level education.

Fundamental needs like food, clothing and housing. What about freedom of speech, electing your leaders, freedom to protest without being massacered by Army tanks etc. Even criminals in prisons are provided food, clothing and housing, does that make their life perfect?????It was a one-time incident that is very unlikely to happen again. But those kids wouldn't have lived that far to be students right?

Its a democratically elected Government and will go if it doesnt do what the people want. Simple. We have the power to change our Government. As for a real man's duties see the point I have made above.

It is not my Indian media and it has the freedom to say whatever they want to say as they do not have to go through Government sensors. Ah the freedom of living in a democracy. Something you should understand as you left the Land of Mao to be safely ensconed in the west.

If their life is so comfortable then why are refugees still streaming into India and Nepal??? You do remember the video of poor Tibetians getting shot by the PLA mercilessly while trying to cross into Nepal?? Why would they take such risks if life was all Milk and Honey in Tibet due to the blessing of the Communist overlords?

But they have to answer to the Communist masters sitting in Beijing eh? Seems not much has changed.

How many have fled Tibet? There are all kinds of people in this world of ours.

I don't answer to anyone but my friends and family. If you are dumb enough to say that there are 2 Chinas of course you'd be in trouble.

One thing I love about you guys: Please keep making those kids. Keep them coming. See the gap now? Wait till 2030. :lol:

The Tibetans' standards of living are probably higher than half of Indians'. They are given many free passes too and can often avoid severe sentences.wait till 2020. :lol:

cn_habs

02-18-2010, 04:55 PM

I appreciate the extensive reply and I agree with you about the Nazi angle being put on the DL, though I do have to say that NASA was a bit more than just 'coming into contact' with nazis, or former nazis in the late 40's. ;)
I do sincerely believe that living conditions under the pre-communist Tibet were horrific and that while the great leap forward didn't do them any favors in the short run, it certainly helped develop the region in more ways than it destroyed it. Look at photos of Lhasa now. It has paved roads, electricity, phone lines, running water, proper housing etc. It really seems unlikely that any of these things would have been developed in a repressive, feudalistic state.

Unless someone else has links and stats to back up one-sided empty claims/opinions, this poster summed up everything.

rkpo

02-18-2010, 11:33 PM

Again, where's your evidence?

Well as I said, its pointless and misleading to compare living standards in Tibet leading up to the 1950's and living standards today. Its also completely off topic. CCP zombies started it by attacking the Dalai Lama and Tibetan culture and then demand proof it isnt true - dont you realize unbiased people do not rush out to research lies and distortions - they tend to ignore them until enough people start believing them... especially retrospectively nearly 100 years ago in one of the remotest parts of the world. More telling then me not answering your misdirection is the weakness of your argument and sources.
Your link seems to do just that though, compare living standards, but also at the same time critizing Tibetan's for complaining for the same reason; "By not defining cultural genocide the Tibetan exiles can label any changes from 1959 as cultural genocide, although many of these changes could be expected to have occurred without the issue of cultural genocide arising."
Mr Sautman obviously has a bicycle to peddle from what you posted so I dont really consider that to be an unbiased source. His sentence "The problems of Tibetans are typical of minorities in the era of large modern states." in the context of the paragraph heading about Tibetan sovereignty, points to bias that Tibet did not have its own nation prior to Chinese invasion. Minorities occur within a population, the Tibetans had their own nation where they were the majority. The next paragraph just confirms bias nicely. It then spends the rest of that selling that bias. Hardly convincing and not neutral enough to warrant me reading the source itself.
China doesnt want to understand Tibetan spirituality on the most basic level as evidenced by their treatment of the Dalai and Panchen Lama's... and one must wonder how they corrupt the other Tulku's. This might not effect the average Tibetan's life walking down the road but, it is a direct attack on their religion at its root, and they know that.

The incarnation line that the title represents had nothing to do with the Chinese, and good old Wikipedia says it was the Mongolians who created the title, not the position.

The violent Chinese Communist expansion after WW2 enveloped Tibet the very same year the Korean War started. Clearly China was working to expand its territory for its own sake. The very fact the CCP invaded Tibet should be pause to consider its motives in this day and age, as to should their views on Taiwan, but their actions in villifying the Dalai Lama as a terrorist are clear indicators the CCP only cares about controlling Tibet and not about its spiritual identity. Surely you do not need me to provide you a source for this, as it is your beloved CCP media which announces such tripe. You lot are your own undoing no matter how much you pat each other on the back. Don't let China become a big Nazi Germany, get over the CCP, and find your peaceful culture again.

rkpo

02-18-2010, 11:40 PM

What else is there to say. The poster summed up everything.

Unless someone else has links and stats to back up one-sided empty claims/opinions, this poster summed up everything.

Short memory? Your repeating yourself to the same quoted text.... oh and please consider that deliberatly going offtopic in a direction which might better suit your argument in a thread, and then spending time cheerleading about it and demanding arguments against it just makes youz look even more beat :)

hulaku

02-19-2010, 01:32 AM

I said "starving to death", not dead. It's an expression to describe extreme hunger.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1421393.ece

Even according to UN STANDARDS, "MALNUTRITION" was used TO NOT HURT YOUR FEELINGS. It's not politally correct to say the blunt truth.

Probably you got your English education in China so I dont blame you for not being able to distinguish the difference between "starving to death" and "malnourished".
mal·nour·ished (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifl-nûrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifsht, -nhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gifrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif-)adj. Affected by improper nutrition or an insufficient diet.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/malnourished

And while we are on his topic do you know that India has started Poverty Alleviation projects in China to help the poor in China. Ungrateful much:)

India has begun its first poverty alleviation project (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/India-begins-poverty-alleviation-project-in-China/articleshow/4683227.cms) in China, sponsoring a farmers’ training and information center in Ningxia.
The first-ever India funded project, which is really a diplomatic initiative to connect with a provincial government, was inaugurated by Nirupama Rao, Indian ambassador in China, and Wang Zhengwei, chairman of the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, in Liangtian township on Saturday. The NHAR is jointly funding the project with the Indian government.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/poverty-alleviation/

To the eye of the West, that's extreme poverty and malnutrition. Why don't you go to those poor villages and see.
So you are a westerner now, how convenient. You dont need to be a westrner to see poverty. Any normal human can make that out.

The Americans at least have accomplished a lot so if they want to critize us so be it. But Indians? All you can be proud of is Indian democracy while your kids starve and 3000 of them die everyday. Your government is so busying promoting democracy and don't think about the future.
Do you have a list of nations that can criticize you and another list that cannot????? Against your brainwashed CCP education is showing. I dont blame you, I blame your Communist overlords.

As a matter of fact, I had more liberties in China than in Canada. I actually lost lots of priviledges at the expense of cleaner air and more reputable higher-level education.
Please elaborate so that people in Canada can start queing up to go to live in the Maoist Paradise. What are you smoking. More liberty in China than Canada. Joke of the day

It was a one-time incident that is very unlikely to happen again. But those kids wouldn't have lived that far to be students right?
Yada Yada Yada. Be an apologist for the crimes of the Communist overlords.

The Tibetans' standards of living are probably higher than half of Indians'. They are given many free passes too and can often avoid severe sentences.wait till 2020. :lol:
Good for the Tibetians. Can you now allow them freedom to practice their religion and traditions and stop flooding Tibet with Han Chinese and telling them the whereabouts of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima

TheMiddlePath

02-19-2010, 02:15 AM

Again your reading and comprehension disability is shining through.
Malnourished=/=Starving to death.
Do a little reading before posting bull crap statements.

You are now in Canada and I can understand your life would be better living in the free west, than what it was for your parents in China.

Fundamental needs like food, clothing and housing. What about freedom of speech, electing your leaders, freedom to protest without being massacered by Army tanks etc. Even criminals in prisons are provided food, clothing and housing, does that make their life perfect?????

Its a democratically elected Government and will go if it doesnt do what the people want. Simple. We have the power to change our Government. As for a real man's duties see the point I have made above.

It is not my Indian media and it has the freedom to say whatever they want to say as they do not have to go through Government sensors. Ah the freedom of living in a democracy. Something you should understand as you left the Land of Mao to be safely ensconed in the west.

If their life is so comfortable then why are refugees still streaming into India and Nepal??? You do remember the video of poor Tibetians getting shot by the PLA mercilessly while trying to cross into Nepal?? Why would they take such risks if life was all Milk and Honey in Tibet due to the blessing of the Communist overlords?

But they have to answer to the Communist masters sitting in Beijing eh? Seems not much has changed.

Hulaku, you are unbelievable. You are totally brainwashed.

If the defination of Democracy is "Rule by the will of the people" and if the altimate purpose of having a democracy is to have prosperity for all. China is probably more democratic then you think.

If you think India's democracy is so great. That is wonderful. I wish India continue with it. But I do not think China see India as a model.

As for Mao. He is dead like a hundred years ago. He will only be admired for uniting "All Under Heaven" as far as most urban people in China are concern.

However, strange isn't it. That the spirit of Mao appeared to be more alive outside China then inside China. Do you not think so ? Especially in countries with irresponsible unlimited freedom press and thousand parties chaoticracy ?

And in other news.
Maoists kill 24 jawans in West Bengal - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms

hulaku

02-19-2010, 02:32 AM

Hulaku, you are unbelievable. You are totally brainwashed.
Thank you for the compliment.

If the defination of Democracy is "Rule by the will of the people" and if the altimate purpose of having a democracy is to have prosperity for all. China is probably more democratic then you think.
I agree with your definition of democracy though I would like to add freedom to the prosperity part. Please make me understand how "China is more democratic than what I think".

If you think India's democracy is so great. That is wonderful. I wish India continue with it. But I do not think China see India as a model.
I dont think that Indian democracy is great but looking at the demographic profile and the sheer number of people in India it is still an achievement that it works and works well. You do know that there are 2000 ethnicities, 5000 languages, most of the world's religions and multiple castes and races in India. Do read up and educate yourself on the diversity of India. You would learn a lot of new things.

China doesnt need a role model. It is doing well for itself.

As for Mao. He is dead like a hundred years ago. He will only be admired for uniting "All Under Heaven" as far as most urban people in China are concern.

However, strange isn't it. That the spirit of Mao appeared to be more alive outside China then inside China. Do you not think so ? Especially in countries with irresponsible unlimited freedom press and thousand parties chaoticracy ?

You gave the world Mao we gave the world Gandhi.

And dont hate the freedom of the press and a Multi-party democracy system of Government.

[/QUOTE]And in other news.
Maoists kill 24 jawans in West Bengal - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms[/QUOTE]

And how is this related to the topic we are discussing?

hulaku

02-19-2010, 02:36 AM

WASHINGTON (*******) – President Barack Obama hosted exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama at the White House Thursday, drawing an angry reaction from China and risking further damage to strained Sino-U.S. ties.

Raising issues that quickly stoked China's ire, Obama used his first presidential meeting with the Dalai Lama to press Beijing, under international criticism for its Tibet policies, to preserve Tibetan identity and respect human rights there.

Obama sat down with the Dalai Lama -- who is reviled by the Chinese government as a dangerous separatist but admired by many around the world as a man of peace -- in the face of wider tensions over U.S. weapons sales to Taiwan, China's currency practices and Internet censorship.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100218/ts_nm/us_china_usa

And China strikes back:)

China summons US Ambassador over Dalai Lama's Washington visit

China’s first order of business this morning was to issue a protest against President Obama’s meeting with the Dalai Lama, demanding Washington take steps to improve ties strained by the encounter.
How Beijing calibrated that response has been widely anticipated as a signal of whether its anger at Washington’s show of respect to a man China accuses of fomenting unrest in Tibet will further damage already strained relations.

The language used by Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu was relatively restrained, stopping short of warning of further harm to relations and reflecting Beijing’s desire to limit the impact while such serious issues as U.S. arms sales to Taiwan remain on the table.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7033132.ece

clue

02-19-2010, 02:39 AM

Well as I said, its pointless and misleading to compare living standards in Tibet leading up to the 1950's and living standards today.

Actually, you started the pointless and misleading living standard comparison by saying this.

"The fact is that China did and still does much worse then Tibet ever did."

And without any evidence to back it up, please find me a Tibetologist that will agree your statement.

Its also completely off topic. CCP zombies started it by attacking the Dalai Lama and Tibetan culture and then demand proof it isnt true - dont you realize unbiased people do not rush out to research lies and distortions - they tend to ignore them until enough people start believing them.

CCP zombies have made points that are true and points that aren't true, with research, those can be distinguished.

Your link seems to do just that though, compare living standards, but also at the same time critizing Tibetan's for complaining for the same reason; "By not defining cultural genocide the Tibetan exiles can label any changes from 1959 as cultural genocide, although many of these changes could be expected to have occurred without the issue of cultural genocide arising."

Mr Sautman obviously has a bicycle to peddle from what you posted so I dont really consider that to be an unbiased source. His sentence "The problems of Tibetans are typical of minorities in the era of large modern states." in the context of the paragraph heading about Tibetan sovereignty, points to bias that Tibet did not have its own nation prior to Chinese invasion. Minorities occur within a population, the Tibetans had their own nation where they were the majority. The next paragraph just confirms bias nicely. It then spends the rest of that selling that bias. Hardly convincing and not neutral enough to warrant me reading the source itself.

Sautman's position is well-defended and quite neutral, and he has better credentials than you, as with tibetologist like Melvyn Goldstein, Christopher Beckwith, Walter Simon, and Elliot Sperling. These American educated tibetologist historians will all acknowedge China has been making inroads in accommodating Tibetan culture, these researchers will also acknowledge China making mistakes towards Tibetans, which means, they are much more neutral than you are. These are also all academic sources, not news sources (from CCP, BBC, CNN, Fox, AP, etc).

China doesnt want to understand Tibetan spirituality on the most basic level as evidenced by their treatment of the Dalai and Panchen Lama's... and one must wonder how they corrupt the other Tulku's. This might not effect the average Tibetan's life walking down the road but, it is a direct attack on their religion at its root, and they know that.

Treatment of Dalai Lama =/= treatment of Tibetan culture.

That's like saying putting a black liberationist in jail on charges of terrorism means they're treating Blacks horribly.

The incarnation line that the title represents had nothing to do with the Chinese, and good old Wikipedia says it was the Mongolians who created the title, not the position.

The dynasty was Yuan, ruled by Mongols, populated by Chinese. The mandate of rule was given by the Chinese, it doesn't make any difference it was a minority ruler (as with this case, the Mongols) creating the title. That's like saying a Black president creating a new title of a department as oppose to an American president.

The violent Chinese Communist expansion after WW2 enveloped Tibet the very same year the Korean War started. Clearly China was working to expand its territory for its own sake. The very fact the CCP invaded Tibet should be pause to consider its motives in this day and age, as to should their views on Taiwan, but their actions in villifying the Dalai Lama as a terrorist are clear indicators the CCP only cares about controlling Tibet and not about its spiritual identity.

Tibet was recognized as part of China in 1911. Politics, diplomacy, and even American maps from that time recognizes this. Interwar conferences of WWII cemented Tibet as part of mainland China, again, even politics, diplomacy, and American maps from that time recognizes this. Chinese (communist or not) only reoccupied Tibet, it was not strictly an "invasion" (Western speak) or a "peaceful incorporation" (Chinese speak).

Surely you do not need me to provide you a source for this, as it is your beloved CCP media which announces such tripe. You lot are your own undoing no matter how much you pat each other on the back. Don't let China become a big Nazi Germany, get over the CCP, and find your peaceful culture again.

CCP media this and that. I don't read Chinese, can't speak Chinese, and I am not in China. But hey, don't let your silly generalization stop you. It's kind of like anybody making fun of Obama is automatically a Republican.

Eventine

02-19-2010, 03:11 AM

Don't let China become a big Nazi Germany, get over the CCP, and find your peaceful culture again.

The so-called "peaceful culture" of China was peace through submission. The erosion of martial culture has only ever led to outside subjugation by stronger martial cultures. That has been China's historical experience, and your romanticized view is contrary to reality.

hulaku

02-19-2010, 04:06 AM

Whether they like it or not, China has been very good for Tibetans.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233726 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/233726Dedicated)

Dedicated to all my Chinese Friends on Mpnet.:)

Stonewall71

02-19-2010, 04:08 AM

Whether they like it or not, China has been very good for Tibetans.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233726 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/233726Dedicated)

Dedicated to all my Chinese Friends on Mpnet.:)

what should I look for in that link? :|

hulaku

02-19-2010, 04:10 AM

what should I look for in that link? :|

The positive side of Chinese rule on Tibet:)

rkpo

02-19-2010, 04:43 AM

Actually, you started the pointless and misleading living standard comparison by saying this.

"The fact is that China did and still does much worse then Tibet ever did."

And without any evidence to back it up, please find me a Tibetologist that will agree your statement.

I did not start it, I was responding to the offtopic posts about slavery and brutal pre Chinese invasion practises inside Tibet. Their is heaps of abuses China has commited in recent times. Take your pick... and what has Tibet done, had a couple of small riots in revolt against the PLA occupation!?

CCP zombies have made points that are true and points that aren't true, with research, those can be distinguished.

... but what are their motives, truth or party line. At least outside of the China research is not restricted.

Sautman's position is well-defended and quite neutral, and he has better credentials than you, as with tibetologist like Melvyn Goldstein, Christopher Beckwith, Walter Simon, and Elliot Sperling. These American educated tibetologist historians will all acknowedge China has been making inroads in accommodating Tibetan culture, these researchers will also acknowledge China making mistakes towards Tibetans, which means, they are much more neutral than you are. These are also all academic sources, not news sources (from CCP, BBC, CNN, Fox, AP, etc).

I agree China has made concessions to allow Tibetan culture to exist but if clearly they are in the interests of China otherwise China would at least talk with the Dalai Lama. China knows if they destroy the 'royalty' of Tibet they are in fact destroying the Tibetan religion and they know over time their stranglehold will weaken Tibetan culture into nothing more then a tourist attraction. A Tibetologist would also need to have studied Tibetan Buddhism. Sautman's work was payrolled by the Center for Chinese Studies, and his interests are communism and China itself... hardly neutral.

Treatment of Dalai Lama =/= treatment of Tibetan culture.

That's like saying putting a black liberationist in jail on charges of terrorism means they're treating Blacks horribly.

Then you need to understand Tibetan Buddhism better perhaps... he is more then a liberationist, he was/is the leader of Tibet and according to Tibetan beliefs the 14th reincarnation of a line of leaders related to a specific Buddha (compassion). China wants to break the chain and destroy the generations long culture of Tibet, they are just gutting its culture from the inside out and leaving it hollow.

The dynasty was Yuan, ruled by Mongols, populated by Chinese. The mandate of rule was given by the Chinese, it doesn't make any difference it was a minority ruler (as with this case, the Mongols) creating the title. That's like saying a Black president creating a new title of a department as oppose to an American president.

Indeed the Mongolians have a lot more in common with Tibet then China. Creating a title does not mean creating the position of authority.

Tibet was recognized as part of China in 1911. Politics, diplomacy, and even American maps from that time recognizes this. Interwar conferences of WWII cemented Tibet as part of mainland China, again, even politics, diplomacy, and American maps from that time recognizes this. Chinese (communist or not) only reoccupied Tibet, it was not strictly an "invasion" (Western speak) or a "peaceful incorporation" (Chinese speak).

It was isolated in 1911 so its not hard to imagine nations dealing with China simply used Chinese information. Tibet has its own language, its own political system and its own borders seperate from China. You cannot back date periodic borders otherwise Japan could claim parts of China it occupied periodically. The fact is Tibet was running itself seperatly with its unique culture when the Chinese used the military force to invade and occupy Tibet against the wishes of the Tibetans.

CCP media this and that. I don't read Chinese, can't speak Chinese, and I am not in China. But hey, don't let your silly generalization stop you. It's kind of like anybody making fun of Obama is automatically a Republican.

Hey its the CCP spokespeople spitting that garbage out, take your issues up with them about silly generalizations... I agree the CCP line is full of it.

Scriptable

02-19-2010, 05:46 AM

The problem for China is that the world does not forget. One day they will have to face the consequences of the horrific human-rights atrocities committed against so many. A price will be paid.

LineDoggie

02-19-2010, 08:39 AM

The positive side of Chinese rule on Tibet:)Wrong person to ask, he'll try and find it....

Eventine

02-19-2010, 12:20 PM

LineDoggie

02-19-2010, 12:22 PM

So What have been the horrific effects for the USA from the CCP again?

clue

02-19-2010, 12:53 PM

I did not start it, I was responding to the offtopic posts about slavery and brutal pre Chinese invasion practises inside Tibet. Their is heaps of abuses China has commited in recent times. Take your pick... and what has Tibet done, had a couple of small riots in revolt against the PLA occupation!?

Slavery-like conditions and the brutality of pre-Chinese occupation is well-documented and verified. Those are not baseless accusations.

... but what are their motives, truth or party line. At least outside of the China research is not restricted.

Making Tibet a part of China perhaps? Would USA just as easily give up California to Mexico? Nope.

I agree China has made concessions to allow Tibetan culture to exist but if clearly they are in the interests of China otherwise China would at least talk with the Dalai Lama.

Tenzin Gyatso was operating with the CIA in espionage and covert ops, State department has confirmed this. That would make Gyatso a criminal in Chinese's eyes, even if he was a religious figure. Theoretically it would be the same if the Pope was funded by the KGB to destabilize a part of US, fails, than mount an anti-USA PR campaign for decades. That is what the perspective of Tenzin Gyatso is viewed as by Chinese, it isn't goodwill to go around the world courting favors against a nation for decades then expect that same nation to be kind to you.

China knows if they destroy the 'royalty' of Tibet they are in fact destroying the Tibetan religion and they know over time their stranglehold will weaken Tibetan culture into nothing more then a tourist attraction.

China doesn't "know" that, you don't get to assume any nation or person "knows" anything, unless you happen to able to read their mind. Again, please show me fact on how the Chinese are destroying Tibetan religion and culture, Tibetologists disagrees.

A Tibetologist would also need to have studied Tibetan Buddhism. Sautman's work was payrolled by the Center for Chinese Studies, and his interests are communism and China itself... hardly neutral.

Then you need to understand Tibetan Buddhism better perhaps... he is more then a liberationist, he was/is the leader of Tibet and according to Tibetan beliefs the 14th reincarnation of a line of leaders related to a specific Buddha (compassion). China wants to break the chain and destroy the generations long culture of Tibet, they are just gutting its culture from the inside out and leaving it hollow.

Melvyn Goldstein (Co Director for Center for Research on Tibet) reached the similar conclusion as Sautman. Center for Chinese Studies in an American university is not biased as you say, but I'll give sway if you can manage to find any funding that ties to China. Beckwith is also a Tibetologist with similar position as Goldstein and Sautman, and Beckwith has background in the language and religion of Tibetan Buddhism. These folks will not deny where China had made mistakes but they also do not buy into the romanticized view of Tibet that you have.

Tenzin Gyatso was given the opportunity to govern Tibet, he was made the deputy chairman of National People's Congress. Why did he leave? I don't know. It is speculated that either he didn't agree with communist's egalitarian policies of removing the Tibetan elites from power over the Tibetan serfs, or China was bloodthirsty as you say and hell bent on destroying Tibetan culture. Which seems more likely?

Indeed the Mongolians have a lot more in common with Tibet then China.

I don't see how you can so easily come up with that conclusion.

The fact is Tibet was running itself seperatly with its unique culture when the Chinese used the military force to invade and occupy Tibet against the wishes of the Tibetans.

Facts? Acamedic sources please? How is slavery and feudalism a "unique culture"?

Popular Western belief is the invasion and occupation of Tibet and the destruction of Tibetan culture by the Chinese, Tibetologists don't even agree on this (the destruction of Tibetan culture), so it's hardly "fact". What's fact is, Chinese military did go into Tibet and occupied it. That's the extend of it.

Hey its the CCP spokespeople spitting that garbage out, take your issues up with them about silly generalizations.

They haven't accused me of anything, you have.

plato

02-19-2010, 03:16 PM

Riz Khan - US-China tensions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/n-Vsh29TXC0

cn_habs

02-19-2010, 04:18 PM

The problem for China is that the world does not forget. One day they will have to face the consequences of the horrific human-rights atrocities committed against so many. A price will be paid.

Yes, so many atrocities and so much death were committed against ordinary Chinese people in last couple of centuries only b/c this government was corrupted and weak to have a decent army to defend itself against foreign aggression. Survival of the fittest at its best.

Now everyone with so many questionable ethics crutinizes China and tell her what to do? This double standards is pure BS. What are the things that made Mao so successful in the first place? Foreign agression wasn't important at all? There's a reason that the most of the black race as a whole end up way miserable and marginized in the US and Canada? I am pretty sure more posters on a politial or economic board will have a better grasp of logic and history than some of the posters here.

LineDoggie

02-19-2010, 04:53 PM

Yes, so many atrocities and so much death were committed against ordinary Chinese people in last couple of centuries only b/c this government was corrupted and weak to have a decent army to defend itself against foreign aggression. Survival of the fittest at its best.

Now everyone with so many questionable ethics crutinizes China and tell her what to do? This double standards is pure BS. What are the things that made Mao so successful in the first place? Foreign agression wasn't important at all? There's a reason that the most of the black race as a whole end up way miserable and marginized in the US and Canada? WhI am pretty sure more posters on a politial or economic board will have a better grasp of logic and history than some of the homers here. Do Tell Grasshopper, do tell......

Blue P

02-19-2010, 04:56 PM

well, obama promised to save the economics, to shut down guantanamo bay, to withdraw soldiers from iraq during the rallies. now he has yet achieved any of them, ( yes, soldiers are being pulled out from iraq, but more are sent to atan). maybe he finally realized the whole thing is beyond his capability and it's about time to be a good politician, to do what a demo party member should do, since the country can't be helped, but the party's future has to be saved. now, he eventually reached out, for the pressure relief valve aka 'chinese issues', just like any american politician would have, in order to draw the attention of media away from his own failures. can we, chinese and american, blame him? once again, the american beauty contest style election gave them another leader, and the only leader they deserve, a true politician. why is what he’s doing so suprising?

as for me, obama can kiss, or marry the bold if he likes, i don't give a fvck. enjoying the political soap on a large couch is priceless. and any chinese members on the forum, please calm down on this issue. find some good tea and welcome to join me.

Scriptable

02-19-2010, 06:44 PM

What are the things that made Mao so successful in the first place?

Ruthlessly causing the death of up to 70 million of his own Chinese citizens?

Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M

Confuse

02-19-2010, 08:25 PM

TheMiddlePath

02-19-2010, 08:49 PM

Thank you for the compliment.

I agree with your definition of democracy though I would like to add freedom to the prosperity part. Please make me understand how "China is more democratic than what I think".

When asked how much is China being ruled by the will of the people, Chinese gave the highest score.

You may add Freedom but only within the law OK ?

I dont think that Indian democracy is great but looking at the demographic profile and the sheer number of people in India it is still an achievement that it works and works well. You do know that there are 2000 ethnicities, 5000 languages, most of the world's religions and multiple castes and races in India. Do read up and educate yourself on the diversity of India. You would learn a lot of new things.

China doesnt need a role model. It is doing well for itself.

Oh I understand India enough that India needs more Good Government then more chaotic democracy.
When the poor has to join an arm struggle in a "FREE" country, you know your democracy is not working.

You gave the world Mao we gave the world Gandhi.

And dont hate the freedom of the press and a Multi-party democracy system of Government.

Free press does not mean responsible press. What China needs is responsible press.

And multiparty democracy just split the country eventualy into 2 elite halfs. One half clinging to power and one half doing all it can to get to power. And no one running the country. In Thailand you have the red and the yellow. In Taiwan you have the Green and the Red. In Ukriane you have the Orange and the blue. And not to mention Sir Lanka too. Both side just bad mouth each other and promote hatred. M'sia is going that direction too. Yet only 2 hrs away from Kuala Lumpur is a fine example of a striving one party democracy of Singapore.

And in other news.
Maoists kill 24 jawans in West Bengal - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoists-kill-24-jawans-in-West-Bengal/articleshow/5578551.cms

And how is this related to the topic we are discussing?

And back to the topic. A picture is worth a thousand words...says an old Chinese proverb.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2hpophg.jpg

Blue P

02-19-2010, 08:53 PM

And multiparty democracy just split the country eventualy into 2 elite halfs. One half clinging to power and one half doing all it can to get to power. And no one running the country.

and that, is exaclty what the indian wants to see. did you not figure that out? do you really think he cares about chinese life quality? give me a break, man.

Mavet

02-19-2010, 09:01 PM

and that, is exaclty what the indian wants to see. did you not figure that out? do you really think he cares about chinese life quality? give me a break, man.

Spot on! Why would countries like US or India want something good to happen in China when they are our rivals on many issues. Just like when they cheer Gorbachev for transforming Russia into a democracy, how much poorer did the Russians become after that 'great' achievement? It is their interests to make other countries to take a long time to sort out 'democratic' issues which itself won't feed anyone while stay economically and militarily weak. I bet those who gave praise to Gorbachev must be so happy to see: 1. Russia's economy collapsed. 2. Russia's geopolitical interests substantially damaged, from Baltic to Ukraine. 3. Russian morale is down. 4. 90's saw the economic booming of many except Russia. The down to the end question is this: for US, they know that transforming to a functioning democracy will take a long time and drag that country's focus inward as it creates lots of more troubles as a power and system vacuum will basic turn a country up side down. And in the mean time, US's own sustained democracy is functioning well. It created an advantage for US to use its power to undermine those countries who they deem as their challenges.

Those people are hypocritical, and Dalai Lama now should open an Excel file listing what 'real' interests has he got.

And there's no need to argue with those who are fundamentally anti-China. Calling us being violent while they entered into Iraq without any UN agreement. Making the search of WMD become a laughing stock to those wielders of mass deception.

Blue P

02-19-2010, 09:08 PM

Spot on! Why would countries like US or India want something good to happen in China when they are our rivals on many issues. Those people are hypocritical, and Dalai Lama now should open an Excel file listing what 'real' interests has he got.

And there's no need to argue with those who are fundamentally anti-China. Calling us being violent while they entered into Iraq without any UN agreement. Making the search of WMD become a laughing stock to those wielders of mass deception.

sorry, mate. i haven't gone that far yet. i have many friends from the states and some from india. they are all nice people. it's only the american politicans and indian elites, make me sick, not the countries.

btw, your avatar is lul.

Mavet

02-19-2010, 09:13 PM

sorry, mate. i haven't gone that far yet. i have many friends from the states and some from india. they are all nice people. it's only the american politicans and indian elites, make me sick, not the countries.

btw, your avatar is lul.

Just like the way English speaking countries use "the Chinese blah blah blah", "the Americans blah blah", i didnt bother to add "the Chinese people who resent Dalai Lama for patriotism/political realistic calculation of China's geopolitical interets blah blah blah" or 'the american right wing religious moronic evangelical politician who spend hours talking to their phony god and blah blah"

TheMiddlePath

02-19-2010, 09:16 PM

Sautman chose to focus his presentation on a refutation of the claims made by some Tibetan exiles that the Chinese are pursuing a policy of "cultural genocide" in Tibet. Levine suggested that this was a bit of a straw man and that most exiles are concerned more with issues of lagging development. On specific issues Sautman made the following case.

Free Tibet movement needs to keep using "Genocide" even though there is no proof. Even the former director of free Tibet movement Patrick French, himself admitted that he could find no evidence to support these genocide claims.

Using Genocide is the only way the Free Tibet movement can seperate Tibet from China. Genocide, ethnics cleansing was the reason why Kosovo is an independent country.

Genocide was also used to try to split Darfur from Sudan.

Genocide justify regime change.

cn_habs

02-19-2010, 09:17 PM

Ruthlessly causing the death of up to 70 million of his own Chinese citizens?

Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M

Had the British and the French not lead the way into invading a sovreign country and killing everyone on their way, history would have been way more different and Mao Zedong would never have come to power.

Your numbers are laughable I don't believe anyone in my family and my friends`family was killed or dissapeard. That's way more than 100 people ...Statistically speaking, your numbers make no freaking sense unless everyone around me was extremely lucky to be involved in any of those deaths.. Taken from a Tibetan or Faluongong website? :lol:

Of course, my grandparents were all sent to the countryside to assist the the locals and suffered a great deal. The Chinese that suffered the most during that period will tell you that their sufferings weren`t for nothing and that they like their country in its current state because they think of all the well being of the 1.3 billion chinese and are not self centered as many here. on the right track.

You don't know the ordinary Chinese people and don't know the culture and the language, yet you speak as if you prefer to pretend to know more than the actual victims themselves on what's right and wrong.

Mavet

02-19-2010, 09:23 PM

Had the British and the French not lead the way into invading a sovreign country and killing everyone on their way, history would have been way more different and Mao Zedong would never have come to power.

Your numbers are laughable I don't believe anyone in my family and my friends`family was killed or dissapeard. That's way more than 100 people ...Statistically speaking, your numbers make no freaking sense unless everyone around me was extremely lucky to be involved in any of those deaths.. Taken from a Tibetan or Faluongong website?

Of course, my grandparents were all sent to the countryside to assist the the locals and suffered a great deal. The Chinese that suffered the most during that period will tell you that they would rather prefer their country in its current state because they think of all the well being of the 1.3 billion chinese and are not self centered as many here. on the right track. You don't know the ordinary Chinese people and don't know the culture and the language, yet you speak as if you prefer to pretend to know more than the actual victims themselves on what's right and wrong.

Some people will say ' One mistake doesn't make the other right."

Pfft, international politics is alway amoral.

And for me: Chinese people's interests above all. I insist that, including when the crazy communist party does something ridiculous which doesn't include its way of dealing DL (except some really really hardline insults to DL though).

Scriptable

02-19-2010, 09:34 PM

Your numbers are laughable...Taken from a Tibetan or Faluongong website? :lol:

They were from: Jung Chang ( 张戎; 張戎; born March 25, 1952 in Yibin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yibin), Sichuan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichuan)). But if you don't trust a native Chinese writer on Chinese history, here are some other sources:

Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:

Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M

Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)

Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:

Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths

Guinness Book of World Records:

Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:

On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.

Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):

1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M

I could go on but you should get the point. Mao was responsible for a massive deathtoll and the entire world outside of China knows this.

stats (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)

Mavet

02-19-2010, 09:38 PM

They were from: Jung Chang ( 张戎; 張戎; born March 25, 1952 in Yibin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yibin), Sichuan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichuan)). But if you don't trust a native Chinese writer on Chinese history, here are some other sources:

Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:

Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M

Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)

Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:

Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths

Guinness Book of World Records:

Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:

On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.

Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):

1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M

I could go on but you should get the point. Mao was responsible for a massive deathtoll and the entire world outside of China knows this.

stats (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)

I hate Mao, but I don't support concessions to DL. Seen?

dracon49

02-19-2010, 09:43 PM

It seems that Obama does everything to piss China...i really don't know why...what did he gain from meeting the Dalai Lama?

Mavet

02-19-2010, 09:50 PM

It seems that Obama does everything to piss China...i really don't know why...what did he gain from meeting the Dalai Lama?

ארצות הברית וסין לא חברים.

Well, even allies cant piss of each other badly, why not US and China? Besides, on Tibet issue, no one is 'really' pissed. It's like dance salsa, everyones making its needed move. And lots of return for domestic audiences hearing each other haranguing like no tomorrow. And the smiling lama needs nothing much in return but some publicity stunt and some cheap words of support which I can do it as well.

"Hey dalai lama, free tibet, me, Mavet (laDL), support a Free TIBET!"
Here's my cheap verbal support to DL. :)

dracon49

02-19-2010, 09:58 PM

I know that they aren't allies ,but i also know that he needs China in the UNSC on some issues and also China is getting stonger and stronger in everything...China can response in different fields to things like that...Like putting a veto on a new round of sanctions against Iran etc...

Blue P

02-19-2010, 10:20 PM

dracon49

02-19-2010, 10:27 PM

I read what you said;you said that he pisses China to draw the attention away from him....i think it's more because he doesn't really know on foregin issues(he was a senator only for 3-4 years)and he has bad advisors...

BloodyTalon

02-19-2010, 10:32 PM

And back to the topic. A picture is worth a thousand words...says an old Chinese proverb.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2hpophg.jpg
It sure is...
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2748/6a00d8341c038c53ef00e54.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/6a00d8341c038c53ef00e54.jpg/)

cn_habs

02-19-2010, 11:19 PM

It seems that Obama does everything to piss China...i really don't know why...what did he gain from meeting the Dalai Lama?

He was getting too desperate at getting more popular support. It was Haiti, then Toyota and now China. It will be China's turn to use NK and Iran as leverage as part of the chess game now.

dracon49

02-19-2010, 11:29 PM

He was getting too desperate at getting more popular support. It was Haiti, then Toyota and now China. It will be China's turn to use NK and Iran as leverage as part of the chess game now.
China for sure will put a veto against a new round of sanctions against Iran, right?

clue

02-20-2010, 12:15 AM

Spot on! Why would countries like US or India want something good to happen in China when they are our rivals on many issues. Just like when they cheer Gorbachev for transforming Russia into a democracy, how much poorer did the Russians become after that 'great' achievement? It is their interests to make other countries to take a long time to sort out 'democratic' issues which itself won't feed anyone while stay economically and militarily weak. I bet those who gave praise to Gorbachev must be so happy to see: 1. Russia's economy collapsed. 2. Russia's geopolitical interests substantially damaged, from Baltic to Ukraine. 3. Russian morale is down. 4. 90's saw the economic booming of many except Russia. The down to the end question is this: for US, they know that transforming to a functioning democracy will take a long time and drag that country's focus inward as it creates lots of more troubles as a power and system vacuum will basic turn a country up side down. And in the mean time, US's own sustained democracy is functioning well. It created an advantage for US to use its power to undermine those countries who they deem as their challenges.

Those people are hypocritical, and Dalai Lama now should open an Excel file listing what 'real' interests has he got.

And there's no need to argue with those who are fundamentally anti-China. Calling us being violent while they entered into Iraq without any UN agreement. Making the search of WMD become a laughing stock to those wielders of mass deception.

That is the basis of international politics. Hypocrisy at its finest. When Russia was going into a hellhole during the 90s and when the Russian currency collapsed in 1998, the media where I am (a Western nation) said it was "transitioning" to democracy, but they never mention the Russian oligarch controlled media swaying the public, just like American media never mentions the corporate interest behind the scene controlling their elections. Democracy is highly manipulative and in the control of media, whoever controls media, controls the election process, this is especially evident if a nation is large, diverse, and not every well politically educated, works for smaller nations though.

Free Tibet/pro-Tibet/pro-Dalai Lama folks have good intentions, their intentions are fundamentally flawed, much like Al Qaeda or Hezbollah sympathizers.

Honestly if you look at the facts open hand, US is the biggest abuser of human rights out there of any nations today. What China does to its non-law abiding citizens is cakewalk compared to US.

BloodyTalon

02-20-2010, 12:20 AM

Honestly if you look at the facts open hand, US is the biggest abuser of human rights out there of any nations today. What China does to its non-law abiding citizens is cakewalk compared to US.

...rofl rofl rofl wow. I dunno how you did it, but you were somehow able to out-stupid accusations of the Dalai Lama being a Nazi! And all this time I thought you actually grew some braincells

plato

02-20-2010, 12:21 AM

AZZenny

02-20-2010, 12:25 AM

I've met the Dalai Lama. He is a genuinely spiritual man, extremely intelligent, wise, and kind. He's interested in bringing religion and science into harmony -- with science fully equal or superior. What a fun conversation a bright man like Obama could have with him.

And why the fvck shouldn't the US President meet with him? just because the Chicom government throws a hissy fit? Sorry, contrary to Chinese fantasy, China does not actually shape or control US policy, and it's good to remind them in a very harmless way now and then.

Meeting HHDL, and China getting a wedgie over it, is just normal diplomatic nose-thumbing behavior. If China was smart, it would STFU and the meeting would generate no media attention anywhere.

clue

02-20-2010, 12:42 AM

...rofl rofl rofl wow. I dunno how you did it, but you were somehow able to out-stupid accusations of the Dalai Lama being a Nazi! And all this time I thought you actually grew some braincells

I said human rights in a general term, meaning both internal and external behavior.

The highest number of prison pop per capita, USA. 3 times more than the next leader, Russia. 5 times more per capita than China.

Supporting and funding the most number of illegal coups, USA.

The world's largest arm dealer, USA. China doesn't come close.

Backing the most number of human right abusing despots, USA. While China has Burma, Pakistan, Sudan, etc, it's a short list compared to US's long list.

I've met the Dalai Lama. He is a genuinely spiritual man, extremely intelligent, wise, and kind.

I've met him too, I attended a speech he was giving when he was receiving an honorary degree. Frankly, Bush sounded like a genuine man too, doesn't excuse him (and Dalai Lama) for what he is, a liar and a fraud. If the same thing Gyatso said come out of the mouth of the Pope, most would turn a blind eye and go, it's just the Pope being stupid. Ironic how Asian religion is romanticized while Christianity is shunned by liberals.

Mavet

02-20-2010, 12:44 AM

for those who wish Dalai Lama to die soon, (you know who you are). This old man seemed very healthy to me. Bare shoulder, feet and bald head in such cold temperature. I predict another 20 years for him:-）

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/5Z1xGOhmy0M

Good, so that those in China working for the military, intelligence and policy studies on Tibet can keep their job longer if he does live another 20 years. :) Long Live DL for the sake of jobs. :D

Plus those 'free tibet' attention whores, esp in the US, can keep their jobs as well~ since US govt is giving all those money to those attention whore groups, borrowed from China.

plato

02-20-2010, 12:48 AM

Good, otherwise those ppl in China working for the military, intelligence and policy studies on Tibet can keep their job longer if he does live another 20 years. :) Long Live DL for the sake of jobs. :D

Plus those 'free tibet' attention whores, esp in the US, can keep their jobs as well~ since US govt is giving all those money to those attention whore groups, borrowed from China.

yup, we all know that is how you really feel about his longevity. thx for sharing! Good to see that you are happy, he is happy, and everyone is happy!

Mavet

02-20-2010, 12:50 AM

yup, we all know that is how you really feel about his longevity. thx for sharing

Common ground on DL between China and US: Job creations.

Caoriben

02-20-2010, 12:52 AM

Dalai Lama’s travel party requests CIA to send weapons

The CIA-trained fighters who accompanied the Dalai Lama on his escape to India were in regular radio contact with their CIA handlers. This message is a request for a substantial delivery of weapons.
View Full Image (http://i45.tinypic.com/jr77dh.jpg)
Previous Photo (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/photos/dalai-lamas-hymn-to-mao/) Next Photo (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/photos/dalai-lama-nazi-connections/)

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt275/caoriben/send-weapons.jpg?t=1266644569

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/photos/dalai-lama-cia-weapons/
what a smiling non-violence 'Nobel Peace Winner',extremely intelligent, wise, and kind...etc

Halcyon

02-20-2010, 12:52 AM

I said human rights in a general term, meaning both internal and external behavior.

The highest number of prison pop per capita, USA. 3 times more than the next leader, Russia. 5 times more per capita than China.

Supporting and funding the most number of illegal coups, USA.

The world's largest arm dealer, USA. China doesn't come close.

Backing the most number of human right abusing despots, USA. While China has Burma, Pakistan, Sudan, etc, it's a short list compared to US's long list.

I've met him too, I attended a speech he was giving when he was receiving an honorary degree. Frankly, Bush sounded like a genuine man too, doesn't excuse him (and Dalai Lama) for what he is, a liar and a fraud.

You realize China owes much of it's economic revival to the US and US policies, might want to think about that the next time you mount your high horse.

plato

02-20-2010, 12:58 AM

You realize China owes much of it's economic revival to the US and US policies, might want to think about that the next time you mount your high horse.

The Chinese might actually be crying if US passes law to ban them from buying US bonds. What is China going to do with all their US dollars? Food for paper eating bugs? hahaha!

Mavet

02-20-2010, 01:00 AM

You realize China owes much of it's economic revival to the US and US policies, might want to think about that the next time you mount your high horse.

Just trying to prove that US is no saint, they are, just like USSR, trying to let their interest prevail.

Plus, we don't need to thank US for anything for any economic growth of our country. I can say, US owes China MONEY to run itself (not that we keen to lend that much at all, because who knows when a country becomes crazy and refuse to pay) Countries aren't eternal friends (never) nor eternal foes (except when two fought blood wars), so there's no need to thank anyone.

clue

02-20-2010, 01:02 AM

You realize China owes much of it's economic revival to the US and US policies, might want to think about that the next time you mount your high horse.

Nope, centralized planning with capital control and state management was the work of the Chinese, not Americans. FDI between 1990 and 2004 was mostly from Chinese diaspora in Asia (HK, Macau, Singapore, and Taiwan), US makes up 9%.

http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_fdi_3.htm
Actual Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Country of Origin, 1990-2004
http://www.china-profile.com/data/figures/fig_fdi_3.gif
Source: National Bureau of Statistics of China, 2005; MofCOM

Granted, Nixon courted the Chinese, and US Treasury asked the Chinese to peg the Yuan to the dollar, but the intentions were never to make China a competing superpower.

might want to think about that the next time you mount your high horse.

I don't consider throwing out information as stepping on a high pedestal. Sorry.

Mavet

02-20-2010, 01:04 AM

Good to see that you are happy, he is happy, and everyone is happy!

yeah, i'm happy.

And i know DL is happy, presumably as he's living in exile, we will make sure he's like that even he lives another 20 years in exile so i can hear his half indian accented giggling.

plato

02-20-2010, 01:04 AM

Nope, centralized planning with capital control and state management was the work of the Chinese, not Americans. FDI between 1990 and 2004 was mostly from Chinese diaspora in Asia (HK, Macau, Singapore, and Taiwan), US makes up 9%.

http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_fdi_3.htm
Actual Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Country of Origin, 1990-2004
http://www.china-profile.com/data/figures/fig_fdi_3.gif
Source: National Bureau of Statistics of China, 2005; MofCOM

Granted, Nixon courted the Chinese, and US Treasury asked the Chinese to peg the Yuan to the dollar, but the intentions were never to make China a competing superpower.

I don't consider throwing out information as stepping on a high pedestal. Sorry.

WOW! quick to forget the trade deficit with US? yeah! yeah! I know that trade deficit is also good for US, too