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View Full Version : Urban combat: Lithuanian version. The defence of parliament palace 1991



lightfire
02-02-2010, 05:36 PM
I've come across one article in Lithuanian monthly military journal, thought it could be interesting for some of you to read, since I bet many hardly know of what happened here back then and how.



http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6674/seimas.jpg


It has been 19 years since those events, which showed many of our beliefs, will and determination. Hundreds of articles and several books have been written. However, there haven't been more serious study of the 1991 January - August events. For
various reasons, some people, would like to submerge this matter quietly into oblivion, some tend to believe that the only
Chechen-Russian or Georgian-Russian war or other experience is worth attention, and others look at these events
only through the emotional prism.


It would be logical that the specialized training or Exercise should be held at least in military schools or the state of civil resistance
Training Center at MoD. Unfortunately, it appears that only cadets of Gen. Jonas Zemaitis Lithuanian Military Academy recently
began to teach the historical, political and some of the military events of the 13th aspects. And That's all?!



Therefore, this article would be one of tests at a glance and a systematic review of the independent Lithuanian Defenders fight in practice. Without an attempt to retell all those days of events in chronological order and in detail, however,I will try to provide as much detail (collecting them based on various sources and personal memories), which might be of interest to soldiers.

Major focus will be shown on the Supreme Council (hereinafter - AT or parliament, the Seimas) Defense principles for January-February and engineering operations security.

The overall situation
l
After 11th March 1990, when Lithuania regained its independence, the Soviet government began to pursue economic and political pressure. Domestically and in relations with Moscow all was filled with the tension that in 8th of January 1991 led the "Fifth column" organizations, Jedinstvo to action, which tried to occupy the AT palace.

On the 11th of January Soviet troops began to occupy public facilities in Lithuania, and January 13th was the night, when soviet troops stormed the Vilnius TV tower, Lithuanian television and radio center, while tanks and armoured vehicles moved towards the parliament. Occupation Armed Forces ordered the defenders to abandon AT palace. Meanwhile, world public attention was focused on the events at the Persian Gulf, were war was soon to begin.


The Enemy

107th motorised infantry Division, stationed in the town of North (this is the current Zirmunu district of Vilnius, the place where
the shopping malls Senukai, Ogmios etc are located today) approximately 5-10 minutes road distance to the AT.

In addition to the usual small arms, motoinfantry at its arsenal had armoured vehicles BTR-60PB and BTR -70, self-propelled antiaircraft ZSU cannons -23-4 "Silka" and T-72 tanks.

Pskov 76 th airborne division's 234-th regiment soldiers (not less than 50), armed with airborne AFVs BMD -2 and -1.
There is evidence that the division's paratroopers, Vitebsk Guard 103 rd airborne division, 400 soldiers from the Kaliningrad region, as well as the unknown number of other military units has been redeployed to Lithuania January 8-11.

Estimated number can be imagined, since more than 30 transport aircraft IL -76 (each can accommodate up to 145paratroopers) landed at the Siauliai airport on January 8th.

KGB special group "A" (more widely known as the "Alpha"), 67 soldiers, although there is evidence that their could have been about 150, was flown to Vilnius in two planes on 11th of January, late in the evening.

Lithuanian Department of KGB agents, were reviewing the situation in Vilnius and other places of Lithuania. OMON detachment of police officers, at first sworn to Lithuanian Republic, and later forsweared the oath an passed on to half of the occupants.

About 400 "redstraps "-" National Salvation Committee and the organization "Jedinstvo" were formed into teams.


Our forces

About 20 thousand unarmed civilian people around the AT House, including several hundred outer perimeter defenders
(a total of 15 teams). About 2000 AT defenders inside buildings, including the first Lithuanian military officers in the training courses and instructors Rangers, the National Security Department (hereinafter - KAD), Border troops and other teams.

Armament: 1 AK-47 automatic rifle, hunting, sports and small-caliber rifles and homemade firearms, various weapons from the First and Second world wars from different countries, one Degtyarev machine gun, grenades, as well as metal rods and wooden sticks, Knives, fire water system of the palace, bottles with gasoline.

Then the militia unit, established on the fourth
floor of AT House also had weapons:

- The only machine gun (probably - RPK -74), several AKs and a few sniper rifles ( SVD). About 120 AT backroom staff, armed
about 20 pistols, four AKs, 16 hunting rifles and shotguns.

Total armed firearms could be approximately 200-300 people.

Shortly after 13th January Chemical Technology Institute has produced tear gas analogue and deodorant factory began the the gas dispensers production line.

The Plan

With the help of public defenders record the fact of military aggression against Lithuania in the worlds eyes. After the Soviets took over public facilities, the country's political representation and organization wide-ranging opposition to the occupiers should have been ensured.

The task

During the first few days of events in only a minority of activists had a clearer mission - to the extent defend the AT palace, in order to record the same resistance fact, the efforts of the armed defenders AT Assault the mix of people in the crowd and
and attack the storming Soviet forces from the back.

For this purpose, armed men were positioned along the bridge in another Zverynas Side of the Neris and the National M. Mažvydas Library roof. Defenders, at least the greater part of them understood their mission as resistance in any case, for the
1940 mistake should never be repeated again.


Actions

Equipment

Weapons and ordnance, repair, explosives production workshops and the shooting range. were installed at the basement of AT building. Weapons and explosives - brought by the population drift, acquired from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Bank of Lithuania, collectors, Fishing and Hunting shops etc.

Gasoline - donated by the people. Food - donated by people and catering facilities. Some provided by Vilnius City Council deputies.

Construction materials - donated by Construction companies (mainly after 13 January),taken from AT hotel
work site, from the Vilnius city council of deputies.

Builders helmets and gas masks - received Vilnius City Council of Deputies efforts.

Medical aid and equipment - acquired from medical facilities, first aid and medical command post established at the National M.
Mažvydas library, set up by the Red Cross and was responsible for the evacuation of people the accessibility of Parliament, medicines and bandages for Medical private initiative, and then - and assistance from abroad.

Communication and Management

Radio stations - received from Darius and Gireno flight club, portable radio station have been taken from former DOSAF (they were designed for telecommunications network between field posts), P-105 and R-107 military radio stations, obtained from yet unknown persons, and used radio Intelligence (Soviet link to listen).

For Communication with the outside world a satellite channel was created directly from AT and from Klaipeda, as well as with the help of "short wawers" used to connect with foreign (from AT to Kaunas, Siauliai and then - abroad) and replacement of coupling channels.

After the take-over of the Lithuanian radio and television building, the radio production and broadcasting was transferred to the library of the blind and visually impaired - they had all the necessary equipment.

Flares were to be used as a signal for the defenders to retreat and show the direction.

Parliament's defence principles

There were three principles: 1) information management, 2) military defence techniques, 3) civil resistance organization.

Information management was very good and reasonable level and targeted operations, both active and public opinion. Parliament's defense headquarters engaged in SIGINT and HUMINT activities (there was an informant Even the "Ttown of North" - soviet military base, who noticed about tanks moving off on the 11tg January), OSINT (open source intelligence), tactical reconnaissance (observation posts on the Soviet military objects) and processed by the population provided information.

Tthe public and global community was constantly informed about what takes place in Lithuania. Thanks to the intelligence
additional or partial redeployment of Soviet troops in Lithuania, the movement of military convoys in urban areas, facilities, occupation, the political situation in the region and the world was know.

From most military methods engineering operations security could be distinguished. Small arms and other light
weapons on the quantity and quality were not as important. While engineering obstacles had to stop their heavy combat equipment away from the AT palace and prevent the TV tower scenario.

Passive and active barriers had to slow down the speed of attacking infantry and armour and create space for activists to
manoeuvre and kill as many of the attackers as possible.

Military engineering defense structures consisted of three circles:

- Inside the House,
- House of the outer perimeter,
- House of the remote access.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8499/barikada.jpg

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/9206/barikada2.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6700/barikada3.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3403/barikada4.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/493/barikada5.jpg

Engineering fortifications were installed in three stages. First, in January 11-12, the House was covered within barbed wire --especially part of the transitions and ventilation openings, sand bags and steel nets for the main AT House first floor.

Stairs to the second floor have been mined,additional furniture barricades have been installed inside the palace. In fact, it should be noted that not all of the defenders were all serious about. For example, north-eastern RT housing (the current II to the Seimas Palace, but at the time - Trade Union Council Chambers) some older men were sceptical - that 'force' will pass through in 5 minutes. So why should we take pains in the construction some kind of barrier? "

However,a unit from Vilnius Pedagogical Institute (now - university) was determined and thus have initiated the construction of the barricades from furniture, preparing the bottles of petrol for the upcoming assault.

The outer perimeter of the sand spreaders were blocked by the northern entrance to the AT courtyard, the entrance to AT yard on the south side cut off valve networks. Driving bridge approaches Zverynas was blocked "Kraz" truck and two "Belorus"
tractors Gostauto street at the bridge Zverynas blocked heavy equipment.

The second phase dates from the 1991 January 13 th night, when it the information about the events
at the TV tower was reached - civilians being killed by the tanks and bullets.

People have started to gather around the AT palace began to construct additional barricades, fill the sandbags.In the morning after the bloody events at the TV tower the glass building of AT palace was covered with steel firewall and other obstacles.

Driving at the entry points of access to Square to the parliament was made from the barricades fittings and other building materials. Eastern, Western and Souther approaches were encircled by the line buses.

The third phase began later after the January 13th. From the natural construction of barricades
Planned transition to defense system was development,

The first weeks after the January 13th night, instead of "light" barricades with sandbags, stone and concrete barricades have been errected.

1. Inside the palace, at some of the entrances explosive traps have been made: cellars and rooms accrued high gasoline stocks, with additional sand bags on the firewall.

One of the corridors had a special trap - to the ceiling raised to the fixed network large by fishing hooks, which had to fall on
attacking soldiers.

2nd Outer perimeter of Parliament House was blocked with reinforced concrete slabs and concrete-sand walls. The the excavation pit was dug at the dining in the courtyard. To protect the parliament roof from the possible airborne drop-off, bars and barbed wire barriers have been built along with prepared anti tank grenades. It was prepared to overflow the roof with water and then release the electricity.
l
3rd At all points of entry into the territory of AT, reinforced concrete barricades, anti tank spades and exhavations have been constructed.

In order to protect the AT, some interesting and effective weapons have been used. Firstly - misinformation! Rumours were spread about the fact that there is a mine field between theT palace and 1st (while in fact these were the training mines - duds), post with "Mines" written on them in Russian were to strengthen the effect.

Rumours spread that the defenders of the AT palace have received a large quantities of infantry weapons, most notably heavy machine guns.

Another rumour was that there was alaser on the top of the AT palce to shoot down the soviet helicopters. While in fact after January events Lithuanian physicists did construct a laser on the building. But it could do no more, than beam the green laser to the sky in a vain hope to blind the helicopter pilot.

Yet another rumour was that some of the defenders are willing to commit mass suicide. Some claim until today, that in nearby Kyviskes aerodrome several small training planes operated by the flying club members were to take off fast and secrectly for kamikaze style attacks against advancing soviet tanks.

Civil resistance

Civic resistance seed matured over the the occupation period, and sprouted "Sajudis" movement organized rallies, soil manured the economic blockade a time when no one complained of deprivation, but demonstrated patience and ingenuity, in order to resist the Soviet pressure.

The final examination, and verifying that 11th of March 1990 was no mistake came namely in the 1991 January-August months.
To the civil disobedience and resistance AT Command gave the first calls.

However, Soviet physical and psychological aggression focused most people . When a TV Tower attack killed 14 civilians, more than 1000 were injured, but people still did not move of protected objects, the Soviet Army leadership did not dare to attack the AT (although the tanks and armoured vehicles were moved towards the vicinity)

Already in those fateful days in Lithuania a joke between defenders was spreading: Soviet could not create communism in Lithuania for over 50 years, and we have done that in but a few days.

And indeed all was embracing infinite focus, tolerance and love euphoria - many citizens from Vilnius were carrying food to the square, restaurants and private installed outdoor caffes free canteens, farmers from Lithuanian province transported fat and even fresh meat; locals gave shelter and war clothes to the people who came from all around the country.

The fact that the television tower has brought people together, who were not scared of tanks and their shots, soldiers, explosions and fire deaths and blood - shocked the Soviets. Already knowing what happened at TV tower thousands more people have gathered around the AT palace. People were simply glued together.

Conclusions

The suspension of Soviet military aggression was led by many factors and it is still the subject matter. But now it is clear that a massive civil resistance, based on military defense techniques was very significant. AT House defense was used for all the complex steps: fully equipped engineering barrier system precision technology, improvisation and misinformation,
first troops and volunteers have joined the ranks.

Available data suggest that even after(if) the soviet soldiers have occupied the parliament, the fight against the Soviets were to continue already using the underground, partisan, destructive and anti-tamper techniques.

SOF
05-05-2010, 11:10 AM
Thats a good thread. Tankx Lightfire :D

Russian_dude
05-06-2010, 02:58 AM
If the Soviets wanted to, they could have taken all that in hours. So "combat" in the title is misleading. There is nothing to learn in that episode.

Sootan
05-07-2010, 02:28 AM
If the Soviets wanted to, they could have taken all that in hours. So "combat" in the title is misleading. There is nothing to learn in that episode.
Why do you hate freedom?

lightfire
05-13-2010, 12:54 PM
If the Soviets wanted to, they could have taken all that in hours. So "combat" in the title is misleading. There is nothing to learn in that episode.

If babushka had balls she would be uncle. That's a loosers excuse. Not without massive casualties such attack was possible. The strategic objective would have failed in such case. That's what could be learnt from this episode - civil resistance and desperate, improvised defences, however not a military feat could deter a larger and ready enemy force.

TakeIt
05-13-2010, 04:26 PM
If babushka had balls she would be uncle. Grandfather. Learn your proverbs properly.


That's a loosers excuse. He is actually correct. To attribute impotence of the contemporary soviet ruling body as a victory of the people on the streets is simply incorrect.


Not without massive casualties such attack was possible. You mean civilian casualities?


The strategic objective would have failed in such case. What strategic objectives?


That's what could be learnt from this episode - civil resistance and desperate, improvised defences, however not a military feat could deter a larger and ready enemy force. Laughable. Not a single of the shown barricades could stop any military unit for more than 10 to 30 minutes.

lightfire
05-13-2010, 07:28 PM
He is actually correct. To attribute impotence of the contemporary soviet ruling body as a victory of the people on the streets is simply incorrect. .

Oh you would sing a different song if the talk was about Great patriotic war of yours.. The victory lies in the fact, that the parliament building was never stormed in proper force, however there had been plans for this just like for TV and Radio


You mean civilian casualities?

Both civilian and paramilitary, since those men with air and hunting rifles were the begining of the modern day armed forces. Some of them still serve today.



What strategic objectives?

a coup. In order to implement it successfully the soviets had to capture the key targets - TV, radio, airports etc. all that was done except the single target - the core of "nationalists" - the Parliament with independent government. It has been tried to storm it with a mob, that has been brought with the buses - a fifth column sot of people - hardcore pro-soviet "workers". It failed.


Laughable. Not a single of the shown barricades could stop any military unit for more than 10 to 30 minutes

On the day, the coup in Moscow was about to fail a group of drunk soviet soldiers attempted to "teach that nationalist scum" at the parliament. They went with full gear - got stoped at the first baricade, killed one of the guards wounded another two and then retreated. Of course those barricades could not have stopped any serious attempt of a military assault, but that's not the point. The casualties would have been on both sides and neither could afford it, not at that time.

TakeIt
05-14-2010, 12:06 AM
Oh you would sing a different song if the talk was about Great patriotic war of yours.. GPW? Mine? Are you feeling allright?


The victory lies in the fact, that the parliament building was never stormed in proper force An interesting conclusion. Thanks for another smile. The sole reasons why Parliament was not stormed was that SU government clearly understood(after events of 13 January), that another use of unarmed civilians by the opposition would further worsen already bad situation and believed that negotiations were possible. Gorbachev himself planned to visit Lithuania on January 20 or so.


a coup. Really? Strategic objective actually was to return Lithuanian SSR under SU jurisdiction, to force the L-government to withdraw several laws, not to replace it.


It has been tried to storm it with a mob Nothing prevented the use of armed personnell to capture other targets, yet suddenly...


On the day, the coup in Moscow was about to fail August 21? There was no coup in Moscow during winter, either get your facts straight or don't mix up different events.


a group of drunk soviet soldiers A good, though repetitive, start.


They went with full gear - got stoped at the first baricade, Full gear, drunk - and stopped right at _first_ barricade?


killed one of the guards wounded another two and then retreated. Since i got interested, let's hear more serious information that could rise this case from the level of an urban legend - unit, number of soldiers, exact place, who was killed, further development of this event for all involved?


Of course those barricades could not have stopped any serious attempt of a military assault, but that's not the point. I thought the topic was about urban _combat_. How it's not the point? As i understand the article was written to give the impression of a real stand between the army of Soviet Union and citisens, to glorify attempts to defend what was perceived important at the time. Stand, in which citisens prevailed despite "tank shots"(no matter how delirious it sounds). If this attempt is lame-looking indeed from the military point of view there is no need to turn on aggressive mode like it is some kind of religious dogma. Evidently, the most effective work was done by members of Lithuanian government(Sajudis, obviously) and media, who exploited all mistakes of the SU government to their own gain. And no fairytales about "urban combat" are needed, as there was none.

AurimasLT
05-20-2010, 11:28 AM
who was killed

Artūras Sakalauskas 1963 10 26 - 1991 08 21


http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9355/45870445.jpg (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/45870445.jpg/)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7831/62968499.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/62968499.jpg/)

AurimasLT
05-20-2010, 11:56 AM
More pictures from Seimas (Parliament) 1991.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9509/12000908.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/i/12000908.jpg/)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1245/73756324.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/i/73756324.jpg/)

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4310/86571391.jpg (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/86571391.jpg/)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9195/92544466.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/i/92544466.jpg/)

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8941/38083389.jpg (http://img594.imageshack.us/i/38083389.jpg/)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5839/80825660.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/80825660.jpg/)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5953/33903006.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/33903006.jpg/)

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5577/69230274.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/69230274.jpg/)

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/543/28519220.jpg (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/28519220.jpg/)

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7921/50172122.jpg (http://img576.imageshack.us/i/50172122.jpg/)

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7355/84610528.jpg (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/84610528.jpg/)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4561/23672393.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/23672393.jpg/)

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8845/79759240.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/79759240.jpg/)

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3753/20545559.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/20545559.jpg/)

TakeIt
05-20-2010, 06:46 PM
Artūras Sakalauskas 1963 10 26 - 1991 08 21 Search didn't revealed any particular circumstances of his death. For now we have 3 different versions:

- killed by drunk soviet soldiers, attempting to "teach scum a lesson", two more wounded by the same group - (c)Lightfire;
- was a member of the Alytus Territorial Unit of National Defence Volunteer Force, killed during provocation by the Russian Armed Forces. Other two wounded were victims of an assault of Russian Special Purpose Division on the Lithuanian-guarded territory in Gostautas street. - (c)Lithuanian Ministry of National Defence;
- killed by his own comrades while shooting at car carrying soviet officers - (c)V.Petkjavichus(a former member of Sajudis, btw), from his book "Ship of fools". Author also provided limited informaion on caliber of weapon AS was killed from and a name of the prosecutor, responcible for the case - A.Astashka.

Considering the sources, third one seems at least feasible. Especially considering complete lack of information of the army units involved.

AurimasLT
05-21-2010, 02:59 AM
Search didn't revealed any particular circumstances of his death. For now we have 3 different versions:

- killed by drunk soviet soldiers, attempting to "teach scum a lesson", two more wounded by the same group - (c)Lightfire;
- was a member of the Alytus Territorial Unit of National Defence Volunteer Force, killed during provocation by the Russian Armed Forces. Other two wounded were victims of an assault of Russian Special Purpose Division on the Lithuanian-guarded territory in Gostautas street. - (c)Lithuanian Ministry of National Defence;

Lightfire and MoD are writing about same place (first circle of Parliament defence). Look at attached map that I made. Today there is memory stone in place of accident. By the way MoD is writing unit not Division.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9892/mapue.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/mapue.jpg/)


- killed by his own comrades while shooting at car carrying soviet officers - (c)V.Petkjavichus(a former member of Sajudis, btw), from his book "Ship of fools". Author also provided limited informaion on caliber of weapon AS was killed from and a name of the prosecutor, responcible for the case - A.Astashka.

Considering the sources, third one seems at least feasible. Especially considering complete lack of information of the army units involved.

V. Petkevičius was well known pro Kremlin scumbag. He was acting against Lithuanian partisans in post war period, later was important figure in various communist organizations. His conspiracy theories are absurd.

Russian_dude
05-21-2010, 03:53 AM
Grandfather. Learn your proverbs properly.

He is actually correct. To attribute impotence of the contemporary soviet ruling body as a victory of the people on the streets is simply incorrect.

You mean civilian casualities?

What strategic objectives?

Laughable. Not a single of the shown barricades could stop any military unit for more than 10 to 30 minutes.


Bangkok riots proved my and your's point. Civilian defense is rubbish and only "works" untill the furst tank shows up.

Russian_dude
05-21-2010, 03:55 AM
Oh you would sing a different song if the talk was about Great patriotic war of yours.. The victory lies in the fact, that the parliament building was never stormed in proper force, however there had been plans for this just like for TV and Radio



Both civilian and paramilitary, since those men with air and hunting rifles were the begining of the modern day armed forces. Some of them still serve today.




a coup. In order to implement it successfully the soviets had to capture the key targets - TV, radio, airports etc. all that was done except the single target - the core of "nationalists" - the Parliament with independent government. It has been tried to storm it with a mob, that has been brought with the buses - a fifth column sot of people - hardcore pro-soviet "workers". It failed.



On the day, the coup in Moscow was about to fail a group of drunk soviet soldiers attempted to "teach that nationalist scum" at the parliament. They went with full gear - got stoped at the first baricade, killed one of the guards wounded another two and then retreated. Of course those barricades could not have stopped any serious attempt of a military assault, but that's not the point. The casualties would have been on both sides and neither could afford it, not at that time.


So the lesson is, barricades can stop some half-arsed attempt by a group of drunk soldiers... What was the point of posting the thread?

Russian_dude
05-21-2010, 03:58 AM
Soviet unwilingness to harm civvies prevented the attack, not some terrible ad-hoc barricades and gangs of glorified air-softers with pump action rifles.

AurimasLT
05-21-2010, 05:17 AM
What was the point of posting the thread?

Irritated Russians.:grin: So predictable...;-) Thread is about interesting period of high tension between newborn (reborn) Lithuanian Republic with it’s military formations and Soviet Army. Any problems with that?

TakeIt
05-21-2010, 05:32 AM
V. Petkevičius was well known pro Kremlin scumbag. He was acting against Lithuanian partisans in post war period Fighting against people blowing civilians up is a good thing, no? Also as i understand first of all he was a reknown writer and only than a politician. After Lithuania regain independence he haven't supported Kremlin policy towards Lithuania, unless you view criticism as Kremlin apology.


later was important figure in various communist organizations. As was the majority of people, later involved in and shaped the politics of Lithuania, same as in all post-soviet republics. Why do you hate the man, involved in creation of Sajudis thus directly responcibe for the Lithuanian independence and a member of Seim? A much more colorfull communist legacy haven't prevented A.Brazauskas from winning presidency for example.


His conspiracy theories are absurd. Regarding our case his words are less absurd, than unindetified drunk soviet soldiers stopped by volunteers or an unknown assault of Special Purpose Division(sic!). Well, you are free to believe in whatever suits your views.

AurimasLT
05-21-2010, 05:32 AM
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/369/55763109.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/55763109.jpg/)

Has anyone paid attention to this obstacle? It is fishing net with lots of fishing hooks attached to it. :-D Idea behind all this was to release net on advancing soviet troops and fix their movement, later finishing all job with hunting rifles. Perhaps it sounds funny looking form today’s perspective but back than it was desperate measure caused by lack of any serious weaponry.

AurimasLT
05-21-2010, 05:49 AM
Fighting against people blowing civilians up is a good thing, no? Also as i understand first of all he was a reknown writer and only than a politician. After Lithuania regain independence he haven't supported Kremlin policy towards Lithuania, unless you view criticism as Kremlin apology.

I guess you operate only proven facts and will easily show credible sources that describe how Lithuanian partisans blew civilians??? ;-)

Lithuanian partisans there fighting against occupants and colonists of our country who deported most educated, active and freedom loving part of Lithuanians to Siberia, killed/tortured lots of people here and etc. etc. Do you want to continue in that path? Petkevičius personally for me has same status as members of ROA for you. Are we clear so far?

TakeIt
05-21-2010, 07:08 AM
I guess you operate only proven facts and will easily show credible sources that describe how Lithuanian partisans blew civilians??? ;-) Of course. Taken from daily reports of GUBB MVD USSR, that are stored in State Archive of Russian Federation(GARF). For example results of new year festivities in 1947: from December 29 1946 till January 2 1947 53 people killed by lithuanian partisans in villages Bulinaj, Saknevo, Stankuny, Vembutaj, Krokliaj, Musdejki and others. There were 6 communists among victims, others were peasants, men and women, including 7 children 4-15 years old. Considering that all anti-SU fighters did things more or less similar(killing families, torching houses etc.) it is obvious, that civilians suffered more from their actions, than state. Afaik M.Pocjus reviewed cases of executions of entire families of suspected SU-collaborators by the lithuanian partisans. Also, war chronicles of lithuanian "partisans" are available on the net(didn't saved). Wait here it is (http://www.spauda.lt/voruta/kronika/chronicl.htm). As you see, communists are being mentioned sporadically. Number of deaths, attributed to the partisans during 1944-56 is ~25k, 23k of which were civilians including ~1000 children under 16. Interesting that ~21k of killed were lithuanians.

I suppose we're done with off-topic here.


Lithuanian partisans there fighting against occupants and colonists of our country who deported most educated, active and freedom loving part of Lithuanians to Siberia, killed/tortured lots of people here and etc. etc. Do you want to continue in that path? Petkevičius personally for me has same status as members of ROA for you. Are we clear so far? Sorry, communist party was not a military organisation. Also i don't need justification for one thing by pointing finger on another, so spare such BS for willing. If you can refute man's words or add anything meaningfull to the case i was interested in - do it. If you want to act all emo - wrong address.

AurimasLT
05-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Going back to A.S. killing- Parliament defenders had very strict orders not to open fire unless in case of direct, unavoidable military attack. First of all reason for this was safety of civilian crowd that was also guarding Parliament building complex. Secondly soviets desperately needed “good excuse” that could justify their military actions (storming of Parliament) and defenders do not wanted to give it. Various provocation attempts from soviet side there made in order to push conflict from “cold” to “hot” phase. For example: soviet military columns there passing tunnel under Seimas, making fake storming attempts. Fortunately Lithuanians never opened fire and acted calm during all these events. I am pretty sure that if someone’s nerves there too week at those days we could have had Chechnya/ Georgia/ Moldova scenario with lots of blood and new phase of occupation. Calm and civilized behavior was right solution. Another important detail is question if Parliament defenders there carrying arms at outside perimeter (first defense line)? I was visiting Parliament several times during 1991 and I do not remember any man that carried weapons outside Parliament building.

TakeIt, if I understand you correct you want to say that Lithuanians opened automatic fire, killed one, wounded two of own soldiers with absolutely no soviet casualties? Yeahhhh sounds very credible. Towards what they there shooting than?

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4863/72812335.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/72812335.jpg/)

eskachig
05-24-2010, 06:11 PM
Irritated Russians.:grin: So predictable...;-) Thread is about interesting period of high tension between newborn (reborn) Lithuanian Republic with it’s military formations and Soviet Army. Any problems with that?I think the only problem anyone had was "urban combat" in the title.

Abyr
05-25-2010, 12:46 AM
I guess you operate only proven facts and will easily show credible sources that describe how Lithuanian partisans blew civilians??? Lithuanian partisans there fighting against occupants and colonists of our country who deported most educated, active and freedom loving part of Lithuanians to Siberia, killed/tortured lots of people here and etc. etc. Do you want to continue in that path? Petkevičius personally for me has same status as members of ROA for you. Are we clear so far? http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5848/antra2686284.jpg http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/633/pirma2697654.jpg 75 % of killed were civilians. Source: "Kita menulio puse" book, written by a Lithuanian historian.

TakeIt
05-25-2010, 03:47 AM
Going back to A.S. killing- Parliament defenders had very strict orders not to open fire unless in case of direct, unavoidable military attack.
I'll not doubt this statement, however it brings us to an interesting point - if civilians acted according to orders to the letter(which is obviously presumed in your statement), why it is told that people specifically taught to obey orders haven't? By that i mean 1st version of the events. If you served in the army(soviet style), you have know how hard is to simply take _anything_ from the armory(even cleaning it on your own accord), let alone fully equip a bunch of drunken soldiers.


soviets desperately needed “good excuse” that could justify their military actions
And what is the source for this statement? Why in other places Lithuania(Klaipeda, Kaunas, Vilnius, Panevezhis, Vieshinta, Shauliai tv/radio/phone stations) included they simply seized their objectives, but with parliament they again needed some kind of miracle? If anyone was interested in provocations, it was Lithuanian government(especially considering past tensions), since Landsbergis on August 19 already named GKChP as "stalinist, totalitarian coup" and announced possibility of soviet occupation, continuation of Hitler-Stalin Pact, new stalinism, that blood possibly would be spilled, that all responcibility for the aggression would lie on aggressors etc. He also called US to immediatly recognise Lithuanian independece since this is a good opportunity(a call later also voiced by Z.Gamsahurdia).


Various provocation attempts from soviet side there made in order to push conflict from “cold” to “hot” phase.
List of dates, places and units involved please. Let me add something to help you: in Vilnius stationed 107 Motorised Rifle Division: 106 Tank Regiment, 660(Ukmerge), 664 and 77 infantry regiments, 379 SP-artillery, 384 AA, 695 missile(Ukmerge), 980 AT regiments, separate battalions included were 640 recon, 1400 communications, 1298 sapper, 1029 supply, 304 repair. Also a High Military Command School of Air Defence Electronics was located here. So what forces took part in provocations, what _Special_Purpose_Division_ assaulted parliament(according to Lithuanian MOD)? Other examples of armed actions during days of turmoil showed that in all cases only forces presented "on site" took any assignments including MVD/OMON units.

On August 19 gen.Frolov(head of Vilnius garisson) announced that he will not do anything and is simply evaluating situation. On August 20 Lithuanian government asked Soviet Army personnell not to act against citisens and government facilities and stressed the issue of order by B.Eltzin on criminality of GKChP.

In Latvia for example F.Melnichuk(deputy commander of Baltic Region Forces) openly supported GKChP, forced an establishing of curfew and ordered suppression of meetings etc. On August 21 F.Kuzmin simply called I.Godmanis and said that 2 BTR's are enroute to disarm defenders of SovMin(supposedly defenders of the 1st floor were indeed disarmed without shots).

So the question "what for?" still remains, if we are to accept your statements.


soviet military columns there passing tunnel under Seimas, making fake storming attempts.
Care to explain this moment? What military columns, how they faked underground storming? Also, while there are plenty of photographic evidences of the January events including photos of burial of victims, can this be said about August?


Fortunately Lithuanians never opened fire and acted calm during all these events.
You know, on August 21 Landsbergis himself warned, that various people("cometee members") are trying to intimidate and blackmail soviet soldiers also spreading lies, and called to act friendly toward soldiers and officers. If he himself had to say something like this to the nation, situation was far from what you're trying to portray. Also, after the end of coup Lithania instead of sending request to prosecute people responcible for the murder and various offences that took place bothered to close several newspapers and congratulated M.Gorbachev on his returning to post. Think of it - the sole victim of the last attempt to revive a dying beast and so little coverage? Impossible. Remember how quickly news about killed in Moscow spread.


I am pretty sure that if someone’s nerves there too week at those days we could have had Chechnya/ Georgia/ Moldova scenario with lots of blood and new phase of occupation. Totally unrelated examples with simply incorrect conclusion.


TakeIt, if I understand you correct you want to say that Lithuanians opened automatic fire, killed one, wounded two of own soldiers with absolutely no soviet casualties?
I don't want to be rude, but your reading skills leave much to be desired. However, i can repeat that version from Petkevicjus, a member of Seim and former head of National Defence Comitee(?) is at least more detailed and plausible. His words obviously had to be taken with a bit of doubt, yet he is by the looks of it more credible as a source than two others. And again, if there is any additional information on the case, i'll be thankfull.


Yeahhhh sounds very credible. Towards what they there shooting than?
I don't know, you should direct this question to Lightfire or Lithuanian MOD, since both of them haven't provided no data on casualities from the other side. While during the January events over 70 soliers and officers were reported as having various injuries in Vilnius, Viktor Shatskih was killed, nothing is known about casualities during days of August, which of course brings more doubts about "patriotic" versions. Also, only Lithuanian victims of January events were ever mentioned in various reparation/compensation attempts. "Chronicle of offenses committed by USSR armed forces on the territory of the Republic of Lithuania" published on Seimas site also doesn't contain event with A.S. Strange. Supposedly he is the last person to die defending the Parliament, the last person to be killed by Soviet Army, and moreso - died while repelling provocation/attack. Something doesn't add up here.

Russian_dude
05-26-2010, 06:58 AM
Irritated Russians.:grin: So predictable...;-) Thread is about interesting period of high tension between newborn (reborn) Lithuanian Republic with it’s military formations and Soviet Army. Any problems with that?

Sure, but "urban combat" is complete rubbish. You want to learn "militia vs Army in urban combat"? Study Grozny 1994-2001. Not some pansy-ass civil disobedience movement.

BAF
05-26-2010, 07:55 AM
I find it remarkable that those people were willing to fight against an opressor that was far bigger than them and they would not stand down even if it would mean certain dead. Respect for those brave men, and thanks for posting this interesting article. :)

Russian_dude
05-27-2010, 04:16 AM
I find it remarkable that those people were willing to fight against an opressor that was far bigger than them and they would not stand down even if it would mean certain dead. Respect for those brave men, and thanks for posting this interesting article. :)

How do you know they were willing to fight? Untill the first shots are fired everyone is. The Soviet goverment at this stage weren't monsters, they weren't going to have hundreds of civilians killed.

BAF
05-27-2010, 07:37 AM
How do you know they were willing to fight? Untill the first shots are fired everyone is. The Soviet goverment at this stage weren't monsters, they weren't going to have hundreds of civilians killed.


When a man's freedom and country is in danger he will fight. 100 procent sure.

Abyr
05-27-2010, 08:59 AM
When a man's freedom and country is in danger he will fight. 100 procent sure.
You know what came to my mind? A lot of examples of how whole nations did not fire a shot even when they saw clear danger to their freedom (Baltics before the war) or a massive waves of surrendering or deserting soldiers during the variuos conflicts from the Italians, Romanians or from not so long time ago - Georgians. When bullets start to fly and maim or kill you fellows, not every one has the will to fight: Finns, even when faced with huge enemy, were willing to fight to the end, and they did their best, others weren't so tough.
Pics of sandbags is cool and all, but there's absolutely no guarantee that the people behind them would not give up after the first casualties - it's a good thing history didn't turn that way and only one guy was killed (by whom is till a question though).

Robert.V
05-27-2010, 10:23 AM
I find it remarkable that those people were willing to fight against an opressor that was far bigger than them and they would not stand down even if it would mean certain dead. Respect for those brave men, and thanks for posting this interesting article. :)


Oh lord, that was far from the truth. Most of the participants were scared ****less. If my old man was alive he would have gladly described the situation how it really was.

BAF
05-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Oh lord, that was far from the truth. Most of the participants were scared ****less. If my old man was alive he would have gladly described the situation how it really was.


lol then why did they take up arms in the first place? was youre father one of the participants?

AurimasLT
06-03-2010, 07:24 AM
http://www.bernardinai.lt/straipsnis/2006-05-22-laisves-kryzkeles-xvii-xx-a-lietuvos-savanoriai/5301

Here is interview with former National Guard member Dalius Joneikis who was in same place during Artūras Sakalauskas killing. Shortly he tells following:

- 1991 08 21 Russian officer from so called “Northern city” (soviet army base near center of Vilnius) handed over ultimatum. Dalius Joneikis personally took it from above mentioned officer and asked if he supported Jeltsin or GKChP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(Soviet_Union) );
- National Guard members that there in first checkpoint had only small caliber and flair guns;
- news that GKChP is loosing in Moscow began to spread among defenders of Parliament, after long period mood was good;
- later same day car full of armed OMON members arrived to first checkpoint;
- this car was surrounded by National Guard members who told OMON soldiers to go out of the car, since defenders knew that GKChP is loosing their tone was rather aggressive;
- OMON dropped flash bangs/ explosive charges (?) through windows and started shooting;
- Dalius Joneikis was shocked by explosion wave and lost consciousness for few seconds;
- someone of National Guard soldiers shot flairs and more defenders there called in from Parliament to first checkpoint;
- Artūras Sakalauskas was among those who ran from Parliament to first check point;
- National Guard soldier from Alytus regiment saw how Artūras Sakalauskas was shot by Russian officer direct to the chest with “Makarov” pistol.

Some photos there you can see remembrance stone.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3030/as3u.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/as3u.jpg/)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3815/as1yn.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/as1yn.jpg/)