France got it right: denies citizenship to a man who forces his wife to wear burka

[miguelencanarias]

The search tool doesn't provide any previous thread about this, so here it goes:

France denies French citizenship to some guy who forces his wife to wear a full burka and rejects the principles of equality between men and women and secularism (http://www.france24.com/en/20100202-french-citizenship-denied-man-burqa-eric-besson-islam-immigration-muslim).

They got it right. Good for them.



French citizenship denied to man who forced wife to wear burqa

Immigration Minister Eric Besson said Tuesday that French citizenship has been denied to a man for forcing his wife to wear a head-to-toe veil and for rejecting the principles of secularism and equality between men and women.
By News Wires (text)


AFP - A foreign national who forced his French wife to wear the full Islamic veil will be denied French citizenship, the immigration minister said Tuesday.

Eric Besson said he had signed a decree rejecting the man's citizenship application after it emerged that he had ordered his wife to cover herself with the head-to-toe veil.

"It emerged during the inquiry and the interview process that this person forced his wife to wear the full veil, deprived her of freedom of movement with her face exposed and rejected the principles of secularism and equality between men and women," said Besson in a statement.

The man's name and nationality were not made public.

The decision came after a parliament report last week called for a ban on the full Islamic veil in all schools, hospitals, government offices and public transport.

The French government is seeking legal advice before drafting legislation that would outlaw the burqa or niqab in as many areas as possible, Prime Minister Francois Fillon has said.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has proclaimed the burqa "not welcome" in secular France and come out in favour of legislation to outlaw the veil, but has warned against stigmatising Muslims.

Home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority, France has been debating whether to ban the burqa that is worn by a small group of women -- about 1,900, according to the interior ministry.

Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said last month that Muslim men who force their wives to wear the full veil should not be granted French citizenship.

A French court denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam was incompatible with French values.

[wagon]

Fair enough! I wonder if the rest of the 'western' world will grow some balls and follow suit?

[JJHH]

Good for France.

[muck]

That is good news. It was damn about time that Europeans would start to defend their fricking values and virtues.

[shatrujit]

Fair enough! I wonder if the rest of the 'western' world will grow some balls and follow suit?

What is rest of the western world?

[eechoss]

Good to hear, its about time people start standing up for themselves and stop being pushed around.

[homegrowncat]

damn...looks like we're going to have to come up with new jokes about France being soft.

[themacedonian]

In times of economic it is best direct public attention toward a supposed threat.

Is France going to revoke the citizenship of every catholic nun? Clearly they do not support secularism (by believing in god) and clearly they follow a dress code out of modesty. That dress code is just a different colour to a burkha.

It is sad to see modern people bothered with piece of clothing. It is not the lack of clothing but the amount of clothing.

This woman if she was forced she can complain and there is a legal channel to proceed with divorce or domestic violence and so on. How do we know he forced her? She complained? Under threat of violence? Domestic issue. Police can deal with it. Deny him a citizenship for being a bad character.

Burkha law in France is simply stupid.

[wotsnext]

Big deal................it's just clothing FFS

[neophyte77]

Good for France, I hope politicians in Belgium learn something from this (bunch of ****ing pussies)

[themacedonian]

Big deal................it's just clothing FFS

x 2.

107573

western democracies fear a piece of clothing

[Atlantic Friend]

In times of economic it is best direct public attention toward a supposed threat.

Is France going to revoke the citizenship of every catholic nun? Clearly they do not support secularism (by believing in god) and clearly they follow a dress code out of modesty. That dress code is just a different colour to a burkha.

Let's see...

The burqa is not worn by members of a religious order who willingly choose reclusion for the world so as to better dedicate their existence to the service of the God they believe in.

Catholic girls are not forced by their family to wear a nun's robe, and neither are Catholic nuns forced to wear their robe by their husband.

Catholic nuns are not assaulted by Catholics for not wearing their robes, or doused with vitriol for not wearing long enough robes.

There's no religious police checking the length of the hems of a nun's robe.

The nun's robe does not denote their belonging to the Christian faith, but their voluntary joining a religious order because they feel a religious calling to renounce mundane life and to serve God.

The nun's robe serves no purpose of oppression.

Apart form that, excellent parallel my good sir.:-|

[Carib]

x 2.

107573

western democracies fear a piece of clothing


You're equating a chosen proffession (nun) to a forced way of living (burqa). Good rationale! :roll:

[Sada]

Well done for Besson in this case. More important are thoses cases of clitoris ablation, the gambian family in Cataluña that recently sent their younger daughter to Gambia after few years ago they cheated social services of Cataluña and sent other daughter for suffering clitoris ablation...that make me being really upset. Deportation ipso facto should be a resource more easily available.
Now in the case of Burka,there are more frequent situations of teen muslims and young women with high cultural level that wear the Burka first time after arriving to Europe, a volunteer act like a challenge to the society that receives them and kind of marking their territory. In this cases I don´t know what can be done, it wouldn´t be admisisible to cut the hair to western young men 45 years ago and now I thing it´s kind of that.

[Difool]

Merci France!
This should serve others as an example.

[Connaught Ranger]

x 2.

107573

western democracies fear a piece of clothing

1. The "dated" as in old picture you posted appears to show American Nuns, so it has nothing to do with France.

2. Catholic Nuns are volunteers who voluntarily choose to follow their religious vocation and can leave at any time, they are today allowed to wear more conventional clothing if they choose outside their convents.

3. Most Muslim women, are not members of a Religious vocation, (in the same way that Catholic Nuns are) and Muslin women and female converts are frequently forced by Muslim men, to implement a dress code that is not even in the Quran.

4. If you dont like it, stay out of France.

Connaught Ranger.p-)

[Mr.K]

Allahu Akbar?! :D
I bet the islamists are now ranting about the evil-jew-sakorzy and the jewish-communist-imperialist plot against Islam.

[Bifrost]

Good news. Just svp keep them coming.
Wanna wear a Burka? Return to any of your beloved Burkistans :).

[Dercius]

In times of economic it is best direct public attention toward a supposed threat.

Is France going to revoke the citizenship of every catholic nun? Clearly they do not support secularism (by believing in god) and clearly they follow a dress code out of modesty. That dress code is just a different colour to a burkha.

It is sad to see modern people bothered with piece of clothing. It is not the lack of clothing but the amount of clothing.

This woman if she was forced she can complain and there is a legal channel to proceed with divorce or domestic violence and so on. How do we know he forced her? She complained? Under threat of violence? Domestic issue. Police can deal with it. Deny him a citizenship for being a bad character.

Burkha law in France is simply stupid.

IMHO Nobody expects nuns to blow themselves up carrying belts rigged with explosives hidden under their clothes. Muslims, male and female on the other hand......... well, sure you have been around during last 20 years to make yourself an idea about what some people may fear. Is not only about terrorism, is about respecting the damn values, laws and rules of the society you are in. Religion of love and peace followers most of times have a hard time when it comes to RESPECT and FOLLOW the law that rules democracies in western world. If its so hard for them to fit in, they should go back to Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, etc.... and enjoy the living standards and liberty they miss so much.

Am I wrong or anyone else thinks that going with Borat´s swimming suit in Mecca,Ryad,Islamabad city center is a very bad idea, and expect to be alive and with my head above my shoulders by the end of the day is simply impossible. When such a thing is not a suicide mission and a death wish, I dont mind them wearing their burqas in Champs Elyssess. Its simple Reciprocity.

Good to hear that Sarkozy is giving example to the rest of Eurowoosie leaders.

[gaijinsamurai]

Vive le France!

[Mr.K]

In times of economic it is best direct public attention toward a supposed threat.

True, it's not the main problem, but it's a nice political move, since people approve. And yes it does bother me when i see a woman covered from head to toe in black standing next to me in the elevator. I have a problem with people that hide their faces, unless it's for clear medical reasons.



Is France going to revoke the citizenship of every catholic nun? Clearly they do not support secularism (by believing in god) and clearly they follow a dress code out of modesty. That dress code is just a different colour to a burkha.

Catholic church gradually lost it's power in France, same goes with royalists. And thats a good thing.



It is sad to see modern people bothered with piece of clothing. It is not the lack of clothing but the amount of clothing.

I'm also bothered with people with excessive number of piercings and weird hair color or dirty clothing with holes. A society has a set of rules, if you
don't want to be part of it fine, but don't complain when you can't get a job, or get any kind of social services.



This woman if she was forced she can complain and there is a legal channel to proceed with divorce or domestic violence and so on. How do we know he forced her? She complained? Under threat of violence? Domestic issue. Police can deal with it. Deny him a citizenship for being a bad character.
Their country, their rules.

Besides if they want the Burqa so bad , they can wear it a home.

[wotsnext]

107594

I for one would ban Burberry :)

[Gunge]

Let's see...

The burqa is not worn by members of a religious order who willingly choose reclusion for the world so as to better dedicate their existence to the service of the God they believe in.

Catholic girls are not forced by their family to wear a nun's robe, and neither are Catholic nuns forced to wear their robe by their husband.

Catholic nuns are not assaulted by Catholics for not wearing their robes, or doused with vitriol for not wearing long enough robes.

There's no religious police checking the length of the hems of a nun's robe.

The nun's robe does not denote their belonging to the Christian faith, but their voluntary joining a religious order because they feel a religious calling to renounce mundane life and to serve God.

The nun's robe serves no purpose of oppression.

Apart form that, excellent parallel my good sir.:-|


very well said
thank you

[futurepilot2004]

107594

I for one would ban Burberry :)

x2, the sooner everyone who wears burberry gets deported the better :D

[oregongrunt]

He should have claimed asylum like so many others, so he could stay.

[Mr.K]

He should have claimed asylum like so many others, so he could stay.

Not giving him citizenship does not mean denying him welfare....

[Tokamak]

107594

I for one would ban Burberry :)

x3, and exile anyone wearing it.

[themacedonian]

Acceptance is the best way of assimilation. In France after banning the burkha you will those woman staying at home and not going out and joining society. That leads to another generation being brought up as fundamentalist.

Do you people think after banning the burkha all those women have decided to take it off and do what ever they did as usual? That law just imprisons them at home! Most of them (that do wear it) have been brought up as such with the rule to wear it. They were not raised up to marriage without a burkha and then suddenly forced into it. So ALL of a sudden they will follow the law! No. It is a home prison now.

What ever happens in Middle east or whether these people blow them selves up we can not control. But we can influence what happens in a western country.

It is a sad thing to see so much backwardness from western people.

Being a nun is not a profession. One should see Eastern Othodox Christian nuns. They would be banned in France.

[Connaught Ranger]

Acceptance is the best way of assimilation. In France after banning the burkha you will those woman staying at home and not going out and joining society. That leads to another generation being brought up as fundamentalist.

Do you people think after banning the burkha all those women have decided to take it off and do what ever they did as usual? That law just imprisons them at home! Most of them (that do wear it) have been brought up as such with the rule to wear it. They were not raised up to marriage without a burkha and then suddenly forced into it. So ALL of a sudden they will follow the law! No. It is a home prison now.

What ever happens in Middle east or whether these people blow them selves up we can not control. But we can influence what happens in a western country.

It is a sad thing to see so much backwardness from western people.

Being a nun is not a profession. One should see Eastern Othodox Christian nuns. They would be banned in France.

This is about wearing the burka in France, and not Eastern Othodox Christian Nuns.

Its about giving rights to women forced to wear the Burka because the male chauvanist pigs known as their husbands order it, if they have the will to leave their homes the law will protect their right to dress the way they the women choose.

You have some neck refering to the West as backwards, by bringing in this law, France, and the French people are influencing what happens in their country, for acceptance in the west you have to assimilate Western ideas not vice versa.

Connaught Ranger.

[miguelencanarias]

Allahu Akbar?! :D
I bet the islamists are now ranting about the evil-jew-sakorzy and the jewish-communist-imperialist plot against Islam.

Not only the radicals. Take a look at this tool trying to be witty and the victim (http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/eric-besson/) at the same time.

[Gunge]

@macedonian
would a nun be welcomed in saudi or mogadishu or dubai?
why should some have to be so utterly and completely accepting of this foreign practice that comes from the notion that women should be covered and quiet and separate and less than men?
it is fine that they want to do it in mecca or jubail or sanna or kabul, but it is not the way where i am from, so why must it be shoved down our throats under the guise of prejudice and political correctness?
i think France is right to do this, and i hope it sends the correct message that they are not being "unaccepting" and not welcoming outsiders, but that their society is an open one but the burqa is not welcomed or desired.
this is their culture and their ways, they should not have to change it so a few can feel "accepted", i dont see it as such a horrible situation like prison or something
just my .03

[Mr.K]

Acceptance is the best way of assimilation. In France after banning the burkha you will those woman staying at home and not going out and joining society. That leads to another generation being brought up as fundamentalist.

They have a choice of wearing it or not. Just like you have a choice of arriving in dirty jeans and messy hair at your job, or being well dressed.



Do you people think after banning the burkha all those women have decided to take it off and do what ever they did as usual?
No, but people who want to impose the burkha will stop coming to France.



That law just imprisons them at home! Most of them (that do wear it) have been brought up as such with the rule to wear it. They were not raised up to marriage without a burkha and then suddenly forced into it.
So ALL of a sudden they will follow the law! No. It is a home prison now.

I lived in cold countries all my life, when I went to visit Cuba, i brought sunscreen, i did not complain to Cubans about their country being too sunny or asked any compensation for sunburn.



What ever happens in Middle east or whether these people blow them selves up we can not control. But we can influence what happens in a western country.

Why allowing things that you find shocking in your country, at least in your country you have a control of what you want, and what you do not want.



It is a sad thing to see so much backwardness from western people.

Why? And what's next, should we allow poligamy because it's acceptable in some countries? And if you don't have 4 wifes you are not a real man? Same goes with eating dogs/cats, pedophilia, slaughtering animals in the street for religious holidays.



Being a nun is not a profession. One should see Eastern Othodox Christian nuns. They would be banned in France.

Being a nun is a choice and a vocation. Eastern Orthodox Christian nun's faces are not hidden. Many catholic nuns do not wear the typical nun outfit anymore.
Burkha/ Religious headscarf is a very recent attention-whoreish attibute "Look at me, I'm muslim and so proud". You did not have many religious militants immigrating to Europe in the early 20th century.

But in the 1990's it seems that every other immigrant/refugee , especially from the 3d world is trying to re-create his "home country" once he immigrates somewhere, and reap the benefits of a western society.

[Dercius]

It is a sad thing to see so much backwardness from western people.


Yeah, I suppose respecting, promoting and defending: human rights, law & order, women rights, etc means backwardness. We should be beating our women, going on an honour killing spree chopping each others heads and cutting throats to enter such an enlightment era.


Do you people think after banning the burkha all those women have decided to take it off and do what ever they did as usual? That law just imprisons them at home! Most of them (that do wear it) have been brought up as such with the rule to wear it. They were not raised up to marriage without a burkha and then suddenly forced into it. So ALL of a sudden they will follow the law! No. It is a home prison now.

You are just confirming the very same fears that drive government to addopt this very same measure. As you say they are prisoners and they are forced to wear a burqa. Do you really think that by allowing them to wear the burka they will suddenly be free?? so you rather want everybody to be imprisoned, forcing them to accept foreign barbaric rule and customs, while bringing shame on the whole society for tolerating such a vile thing like slavery in the heart of Europe?? Do you want us free european citizens to accept and see that ignomity in our doorsteps?? French soldiers are fighting and dying to bring freedom to Afghanistan and its people and you want to let the very same **** they are fighting against, to happen in Paris?? The freedom and rights we enjoy today were a very expensive purchase, and it was paid in blood. The blood of the innocents and the blood of lots of brave men and women who stood against evil and tirany. Lots of people tend to forget that, IMHO appeasement was never a good approach when facing people who only believed in force, it was like that in 1939 and France with this is showing that still believes it.

[miguelencanarias]

Very well said, all of you.

[filochard]

Acceptance is the best way of assimilation.

hu ? not at all.



In France after banning the burkha you will those woman staying at home and not going out and joining society.

join the society with a Burka ? rofl

[MaDuce]

Some people here are missing the point. The problem is not that she is wearing a burka it's that she is being forced to wear a burka. Comparing this to nuns who choose to wear their garb is stupid.

[themacedonian]

They have a choice of wearing it or not. Just like you have a choice of arriving in dirty jeans and messy hair at your job, or being well dressed.


No, but people who want to impose the burkha will stop coming to France.


I lived in cold countries all my life, when I went to visit Cuba, i brought sunscreen, i did not complain to Cubans about their country being too sunny or asked any compensation for sunburn.


Why allowing things that you find shocking in your country, at least in your country you have a control of what you want, and what you do not want.


Why? And what's next, should we allow poligamy because it's acceptable in some countries? And if you don't have 4 wifes you are not a real man? Same goes with eating dogs/cats, pedophilia, slaughtering animals in the street for religious holidays.


Being a nun is a choice and a vocation. Eastern Orthodox Christian nun's faces are not hidden. Many catholic nuns do not wear the typical nun outfit anymore.
Burkha/ Religious headscarf is a very recent attention-whoreish attibute "Look at me, I'm muslim and so proud". You did not have many religious militants immigrating to Europe in the early 20th century.


But in the 1990's it seems that every other immigrant/refugee , especially from the 3d world is trying to re-create his "home country" once he immigrates somewhere, and reap the benefits of a western society.

1. In France that choice is forbidden now. Can not wear it.

2. France can have strict immigration policy on who to come in the country. Australia has a really strict policy for example. We discussing people already in France at the moment.

3. That is so irrelevant not even worth discussing.

4. I find drag queens shocking, I find Mardi Gras shocking, lack of clothing shocking (except on a beach).
Also I find call for prayer through megaphones shocking (has to allowed in Macedonia due to Western pressure)

5. Poligamy is a civil matter. We don't allow it and we don't allow gay marriages as well. Holland had a law allowing safe *** with animals until the other day <--- that is SHOCKING, sick! pedophiles should be executed on the spot. Killing animals on the street is a health hazard it is a civil matter. Not allowed/
NONE OF these have anything to do with this issue.


6. Militant islam is a minority. Needs to be managed. Don't allow militant islamist to come to France.

7. Need to separate Civil matter issues and laws with religious laws. It is pointless to be emotional. Western forces are in Afghanistan to defeat terrorism and they have not prevented Sharia law or have changed the society there.

8. People have inbuilt inertia and stubbornness. One can not just impose laws. It helps militants.

[themacedonian]

Some people here are missing the point. The problem is not that she is wearing a burka it's that she is being forced to wear a burka. Comparing this to nuns who choose to wear their garb is stupid.

If she raised a complaint against her husband about forcing to wear a burkha it should be dealt with civil marriage laws. She does not have to! Is she going to be bitten up!? if yes then there is a court that will impose AVO. The husband will be dragged through courts.

Muslim women believe it or not wear it by choice like nuns! That is one point you are missing. My grandmother (i am christian) wore a scarf by choice because she did find it decent not the wear it.

[themacedonian]

Muslim women in France have the law of the land at their disposal. If anything the only way to change the situation is raise awareness of equal opportunity laws and to promote for them to speak up and encourage them to exercise their rights.

How many of you guys spend time with muslim people if any? Believe me many men are quite liberal and worried about their wifes. Australia is a different place than Europe.

[Clockwinder]

No matter what your opinion of the French collectively as a nation, they have pride in themselves and their traditions and language that the rest of us sadly lack. They also have a arrogance and stubbornness that we don't all need. Together, these things have combined to stand against the idiocy of dogma - both in the Christian church and Islam. More power to them. Don't hold your breath for their attitude and outlook to be exported any time soon, though. Sigh!

[Sada]

Macedonian, you don´t get it. It´s not the burka itself that it´s wrong, it´s the use muslims do with burka. A thing that happened in my born city a couple of years ago: A group of a tiny muslim association asked to clausure a public indoor swimming pool property of the city council the time it was used by women of that association, and it happens that that swimming pool has free access to everybody, not only members of any association, the most you can´t do is renting 1h some lane of the swimming pool for some purpose(diving lessons, swimming lessons for elder people, etc) and the case is that moor women just didn´t want to be seen wearing swimming dresses, so it was just their problem, and I know this same situation happened in other cities, but the most indignant thing is that the incident was used by the moor association as a mean of presenting itself in society, that was the main goal they pursued, of course they are now receiving public money. Problems in public health centers are typical with muslim, more properly moor families, peoples when the women have to be examined specially regarding ginecology specialties: the man want to be present and hardly support the present of a male doctor. Some news that jumped into the press recently in Spain: When you´re a lawyer in Spain acting in the court, you must have your face visible for everybody, there´s a female lawyer of marroqi origin that consistenly denied to uncover her head when she was in the court until she simply was banned of exwercising as lawyer while wearing the burka after extenous discussions during a long time with her: it´s not a case of an indefense woman oblied by her husband here, and the most indignant with her is that she is the ONLY lawer of marroqi origin in Spain(not the only muslim female lawyer) and she had to cause the problem.

[pobeda]

Good job france!

[themacedonian]

Macedonian, you don´t get it. It´s not the burka itself that it´s wrong, it´s the use muslims do with burka. A thing that happened in my born city a couple of years ago: A group of a tiny muslim association asked to clausure a public indoor swimming pool property of the city council the time it was used by women of that association, and it happens that that swimming pool has free access to everybody, not only members of any association, the most you can´t do is renting 1h some lane of the swimming pool for some purpose(diving lessons, swimming lessons for elder people, etc) and the case is that moor women just didn´t want to be seen wearing swimming dresses, so it was just their problem, and I know this same situation happened in other cities, but the most indignant thing is that the incident was used by the moor association as a mean of presenting itself in society, that was the main goal they pursued, of course they are now receiving public money. Problems in public health centers are typical with muslim, more properly moor families, peoples when the women have to be examined specially regarding ginecology specialties: the man want to be present and hardly support the present of a male doctor. Some news that jumped into the press recently in Spain: When you´re a lawyer in Spain acting in the court, you must have your face visible for everybody, there´s a female lawyer of marroqi origin that consistenly denied to uncover her head when she was in the court until she simply was banned of exwercising as lawyer while wearing the burka after extenous discussions during a long time with her: it´s not a case of an indefense woman oblied by her husband here, and the most indignant with her is that she is the ONLY lawer of marroqi origin in Spain(not the only muslim female lawyer) and she had to cause the problem.

I see your point.
While I think that burkha should be allowed I DO NOT THINK that special accommodations should be made for women that chose it wear it!!

I think I was misunderstood. No law should forbid it.

However.

1. In court show your face. lawyer with burkha? get lost.
2. At airport show your face.
3. At a doctors you want a lady doctor you get a lady doctor.
4. Pool no exclusive access to a pool. If you want to swim swim as you want to. In Australia they jump into the water as they are. Funny or not it is their business. We laugh our heads off.
5. Driving licence. Show your face.
6. Identity card. Show your face.

My point is liberal society and no special accommodations. Your choice your penalty.
It is not a disability to allow special accommodations.

Civil matter and religious matter separate. Law is equal for all. That is the strength of the western society and that is the value that is defended.

[MaNiC]

Vive la France!

Fixed and quoted for the truth!

[Mr.K]

1. In France that choice is forbidden now. Can not wear it.

It's the fundamentalists that do not want to give people a choice. It is forbidden to wear in public places. You can wear a Burqa or your favorite S&M gear in the comfort of your home



2. France can have strict immigration policy on who to come in the country. Australia has a really strict policy for example. We discussing people already in France at the moment.

Judring by what's happening that "strict policy" is not working, and even if it was , all sorts of turds would get in the country illegally. The only way to control who's coming in your country is a) making a more open immigration policy where at least people's presence is documented. b) Installing warsaw pact style borer guards, with seachlights, barbed wire, and patrols with guard dogs.



3. That is so irrelevant not even worth discussing.


Yes it is, when you chose to go somewhere , if you're not aware of where you are going, you shouldn't complain. Currently the rhetoric is " XYZ is racist, they should accommodate us more"


4. I find drag queens shocking, I find Mardi Gras shocking, lack of clothing shocking (except on a beach).
Also I find call for prayer through megaphones shocking (has to allowed in Macedonia due to Western pressure)

Yes, and would you not support a ban of those things in public?



5. Poligamy is a civil matter. We don't allow it and we don't allow gay marriages as well. Holland had a law allowing safe *** with animals until the other day <--- that is SHOCKING, sick! pedophiles should be executed on the spot. Killing animals on the street is a health hazard it is a civil matter. Not allowed/
NONE OF these have anything to do with this issue.

Masked people are a security hazard then. Forcing people to hide themselves in a piece of cloth is also a civil rights matter. Holland is going down the drain with policies like these.



6. Militant islam is a minority. Needs to be managed. Don't allow militant islamist to come to France.

And let's not give them the rights of a citizen either.



7. Need to separate Civil matter issues and laws with religious laws. It is pointless to be emotional. Western forces are in Afghanistan to defeat terrorism and they have not prevented Sharia law or have changed the society there.

8. People have inbuilt inertia and stubbornness. One can not just impose laws. It helps militants.

I don't see the link with fighting in Afghanistan and changing regimes there. You know what helps the militants? Bending over and complying to all religious and non-religious nonsense.
How about they stop getting citizenships and benefit from programs made by evil kaffirs that do not praise Allah.
No one forbids you practicing your religion in France as long as it does not interfere with the civil order. To me, being a militant Muslim in a country which participates in a "Religious war" according to the taleban , is pure provocation, and a spit in the Frenchmen's faces weither they support that war or not.

[HellToupee]

It's the fundamentalists that do not want to give people a choice.

Then why come up with a law aimed at removing such a choice. This does nothing to free such women Josef Fritzl didn't need no burka to do what he did, at best it just hides such things.

[Mr.K]

Then why come up with a law aimed at removing such a choice. This does nothing to free such women Josef Fritzl didn't need no burka to do what he did, at best it just hides such things.

Why should foreign Josef Fritzls get citizenships?

[Dercius]

Muslim women in France have the law of the land at their disposal. If anything the only way to change the situation is raise awareness of equal opportunity laws and to promote for them to speak up and encourage them to exercise their rights.

I dont see how wearing a burqa will improve their situational and spacial awareness ;) . Its a symbol of their lack of freedom imposed on them by tyrannical parents and husbands with a backward and sick mentality. By the simple fact of accepting to wear such a thing, you are showing your true colors, and its simply hard to believe that a woman wearing a burqa will ever bring her husband or father to court because of any abuse or misstreat.


How many of you guys spend time with muslim people if any? Believe me many men are quite liberal and worried about their wifes. Australia is a different place than Europe.

I spent a lot of time with muslims ((and by muslim I mean, follower of the Islam. That doesnt include laic ethnic Pakistanis, Arabs and Maghrebis)), and not a single one of them would I ever dare to call a liberal. They were very autoritarian with their wives and daughters, but at the same time, some of this "believers" were self-indulgent with themselves and their sons to the extreme. Very traditional and close to any change, critic or opinion about their way of life. Most of them supported to a certain extent Islamic terrorism, and not a single one of them condemned Islamic terrorism without including a "But" or "Because". The problem is that I think that you are mixing "muslims" people who believe and follow a religion, and ethnicities. I dont have any problem with ethnicities or races, I do have a problem with mindsets, ideologies and religious believes who go against the law and human rights. As long as people live and practice their believes according to law and without imposing or forcing them on others I dont have any problem.

A muslim father or husband forcing their women to wear such a thing as a burqa is a sick person, and makes me feel mad and sick, as mad and sick as an Inquisitor would do. But I havent seen any Inquisitor, infact, none of us have seen them because they ceased to exists 2-3 centuries ago.

IMO Islam needs to change and adapt itself to the world in which we are living today, and not the other way around.

[Dercius]

Then why come up with a law aimed at removing such a choice. This does nothing to free such women Josef Fritzl didn't need no burka to do what he did, at best it just hides such things.

You dirty Kiwi, Australian hater ;)

107813

[Dercius]

Then why come up with a law aimed at removing such a choice. This does nothing to free such women Josef Fritzl didn't need no burka to do what he did, at best it just hides such things.

But now seriously, IMHO had Josef Fritzl used a burqa, he wouldnt have ever needed a basement

[hsh2]

Good posts (for the most part).

But what is a Burka wearing woman and her husband doing in France in the first place?

What function do they accomplish?

What gap do they fill?

Where is OUR added value in all of this? Yeah I see theirs,they can live in beautiful France on taxpayers money, but where is the added value of French society?

Ridiculous.

[Sada]

Good article today of Maruja Torres in spanish newspaper El Pais, to those not spanish hear she´s what it could be considered in the eyes of right wing people a lefty with all stereotypes of those that were young(and wild happy) in the 60s, but in short she askes herself for what are dying spanish soldiers in Afghanistan if talibans are among us, linked with the last "burkanews" in the spanish press: In a catalan town in Tarragona province, a woman of marroqi ascendence is being threatened by the local muft and other muslins inmigrant of this town because she wears european dresses. And as it uses to be the case, it´s all a fight of power and influence: the threatened woman got a job in the council town administration as social assistant specialiced in cultural relations with local communities. For the local muslim parrishers, that are used to the Marroq style, having a link of any kind with public Administration is a powerful tool, so that a woman of "theirs" can live emancipated and helding a job of some influence is a double insult. There are not few marroqi women that wear european clothers, and there are some women of marroqi ascendency having some job in public administrations, but in the small community of Cataluña this is most of what local muslims can stand. To make the situation worst, the marroqi social assistance denounced the threatens of local mufti to the major of the town, a female member of socialist party, that not only wasn´t sympathetic with a human being of the same gender but she said to the threated woman that it would be better to accept the claims of the mufti. And that are the situations around this part of the world, I don´t know if in the anthipodes can see it clearer than us what we have in our streets, in that case thanks in advance for your help.

[Difool]

But now seriously, IMHO had Josef Fritzl used a burqa, he wouldnt have ever needed a basement
:) Quoted for originality! :)

[Mr.K]

Good posts (for the most part).

But what is a Burka wearing woman and her husband doing in France in the first place?

What function do they accomplish?

What gap do they fill?

Where is OUR added value in all of this? Yeah I see theirs,they can live in beautiful France on taxpayers money, but where is the added value of French society?

Ridiculous.

A burka wearing woman is a +1 vote for the gauche caviar demagogue politician.
And gives you the right to check "muliculturalist and understanding society" when going to the UN or whatever.

[Vandervahn]

...
Is France going to revoke the citizenship of every catholic nun? Clearly they do not support secularism (by believing in god) ...

1. Secularism is not atheism.
2. In this case secularism describes the separation of church and state; a nun is subject to the teachings of the catholic church, which in turn has subjected to and arranged with the secular movement for centuries. Which means while a nun (or monk or priest) might personally reject secularism, there is no outside pressure to do so by the group he or she belongs to - in fact, the opposite.