Is the SVD's design flawed to begin with?

[matthew.manhorn]

Well I've read an article about SVD before

-It's MOA is pretty high since its rifled barrel is actually shorter than its barrel length, found it from Wikipedia and it said the shortened rifled barrel is to help the rifle fire tracer rounds due to less spin

-Many people tend to argue that SVD is good for ranges within 800m which is not really a sniper rifle, but isn't 10 rounds a little bit too insufficient for a sharpshooting rifle?

Isn't SVD the first sniper rifle (with others being rifles+scopes like m14, Mosin Nagant etc..), it's a little bit weird imo

When I was browsing the forums years ago I remember Romans posting this


You would be surprised, a lot of SF members in Russia I know are not too happy with SVD

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?68791-Dragunov-Vs-M14&p=1396113&viewfull=1#post1396113

[martinexsquaddie]

hang on its a 40 yr old design a military weapon designed to give platoon equipped with aks some one with longer range shooting ability something no western army had until the 90s .
Not a sniper rifle as such and designed for general issue Comrade pvt pileski :)
everyone else has an Ak 47 there going to use them on ful auto backed by bmps and tanks PVT pileski will be going forward with his comrades taking the occasional aimed shot.
Its designed to do that not some shootist fantasy

[Corto Maltese]

Well I've read an article about SVD before

-It's MOA is pretty high since its rifled barrel is actually shorter than its barrel length, found it from Wikipedia and it said the shortened rifled barrel is to help the rifle fire tracer rounds due to less spin

-Many people tend to argue that SVD is good for ranges within 800m which is not really a sniper rifle, but isn't 10 rounds a little bit too insufficient for a sharpshooting rifle?

Isn't SVD the first sniper rifle (with others being rifles+scopes like m14, Mosin Nagant etc..), it's a little bit weird imo

When I was browsing the forums years ago I remember Romans posting this



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?68791-Dragunov-Vs-M14&p=1396113&viewfull=1#post1396113



The Russian pattern SVD is the worst rifle I ever shot with. After three rounds the scope flew off. Inaccurate as hell. Impressive though how the ejected cases fly high, hot and strong and fall almost in the same spot... Just a collector's item now.

[asch]

After three rounds the scope flew off.
that's quite strange.

[Corto Maltese]

It did, flew like a king-size case past my ear; and it's lousy optics too, and where can I find a replacement battery for the Russian paper and copper item?

[asch]

it's very hard to get original PSO-1 battery, though i heard of folks using halvanic lithium analogues of A316. original 2РЦ63 is nearly impossible to get, and modern PSO-1 analogues uses AA battery as power source.

[doctor rizz]

The SVD was in fact the first rifle to be built from the gruond up to be a sniper rifle, unlike before when army would just take an issued rifle and put a scope on it.

[oldsoak]

the SVD is a very well thought out and measured design to fit Russian reqoirements.
It was a result of Russian sniping experience in WW2 when they found that most targets were under 600m ( eg street fighting and trying to spot someone over 600m away when theres lots of big bangs, rounds and smoke obscuring the battlefield is quite difficult ) and most snipers wanted a quick follow on shot if they missed. In that it succeeded very well indeed. Its comfortable, points well and the optics are certainly good enough for the job.

[asch]

huh. it certainly more accurate than issue AK74's )

[TheArmenian]

the SVD is a very well thought out and measured design to fit Russian reqoirements.
It was a result of Russian sniping experience in WW2 when they found that most targets were under 600m ( eg street fighting and trying to spot someone over over 600m away when theres lots of big bangs, rounds and smoke obscuring the battlefield ) and most snipers wanted a quick follow on shot if they missed. In that it succeeded very well indeed. Its comfortable, points well and the optics are certainly good enough for the job.

x2

Is it the most accurate sniper rifle in the world? No, it was never meant to be.
But it is accurate enough for ranges up to 600m (800m according to some).

[LineDoggie]

Differing concepts here

Soviet Concept is what we today call the Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) role. Precision fires in the organic squad to 800m.

Western concept of sniper is more akin to traditional sniper role of 2 man team with extensive training in marksmanship, stalking, camoflage, observation etc. usually using a Bolt Action platform for superior long range accuracy.

One of the problems with those rating SVD's is using bog standard 7.62X54r and not the better sniper grade ammo. We had some of the same issues when M118 was rare and had to de link 7.62NATO belts

[martinexsquaddie]

exactly its good enough for the soviet horde and they kept building it.
lots of things better though.

[Corto Maltese]

Its comfortable, points well and the optics are certainly good enough for the job.

Having used one for field T&E in Zululand and owning one, allow me to disagree. It is extremely uncomfortable, every round is a kick in your teeth and chin, rough, exceedingly long (a pain in savannah bushland and I guess in MOUT), the safety and trigger too hard, the optics... forget it, just as the attachment rail. And occasionally I had a misfire. Blame the ammo.
Having said this, I like it, but in ops it's a shortcut for suicide.

[Limeyfellow]

The SVD can fire any round of 7.62x54r so most the time what we get ahold of in the west in the cheapest surplus. However, it is supposed to fire the 7N1 round. There also two barrel lengths. The shorter one does allow the use of tracers, the longer barrel doesn't, but even then the short barrel is supposed to have a minimum precision of 1.24 MOA and the longer barrel 1.08 MOA. That is comparable with the M14 based marksman systems of today (the original M14 and the M4s and M16s are designed to have 4 MOA accuracy from the factory to pass qualification). For what it was designed for, it does it job fairly well, though I only fired one several times before, so I am not some expert on the subject.

As for the scope coming off, that rifle must have had some big problems. That is not typical.

[Jippo]

As for the scope coming off, that rifle must have had some big problems. That is not typical.

But fault scope attachment certainly explains his poor results with accuracy.

[TheArmenian]

Having used one for field T&E in Zululand and owning one, allow me to disagree. It is extremely uncomfortable, every round is a kick in your teeth and chin, rough, exceedingly long (a pain in savannah bushland and I guess in MOUT), the safety and trigger too hard, the optics... forget it, just as the attachment rail. And occasionally I had a misfire. Blame the ammo.
Having said this, I like it, but in ops it's a shortcut for suicide.

Something wrong with your rifle/scope/mount.
And the rounds you are using are probably machine gun grade ammo.

[oldsoak]

Having used one for field T&E in Zululand and owning one, allow me to disagree. It is extremely uncomfortable, every round is a kick in your teeth and chin, rough, exceedingly long (a pain in savannah bushland and I guess in MOUT), the safety and trigger too hard, the optics... forget it, just as the attachment rail. And occasionally I had a misfire. Blame the ammo.
Having said this, I like it, but in ops it's a shortcut for suicide.

You might have been unlucky. There were copies of it made, some of which might not have been the best. Certainly the Russian article I looked at was more than up to the job and quite well finished.

[Corto Maltese]

You might have been unlucky. There were copies of it made, some of which might not have been the best. Certainly the Russian article I looked at was more than up to the job and quite well finished.

Based on the records of the weapon, and its source, I have reason to believe it is indeed original, straight from the USSR. We always could import semi and full-auto from them no problem.

By my standards, SIG 550 and Accuracy International are 'well finished'; the SVD finish is tough, but rough, just as the AKSU 74, or better, more shiny and thick blueing. The wood and paint though...

The ammo comes in the hand-packed brown paper and string packaging, also straight from Russia. Could well be for the PKM or so.

AKSU: problem, the ammo (non Russian, hollow tip) seem to disintegrate at the muzzle... sort of spray and pray; otherwise reliable, and rough on my cheekbone.

[maw]

does the svd have a thicker receiver (1.0mm vs 1.6mm) and a beefier trunnion like the rpk? i ask because i've had great results with the vepr which is a civilian rpk. i've owned/fired the vepr in 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 and i was very pleasantly surprised. i'd love to see one in 7.62x54.

[Jippo]

The ammo comes in the hand-packed brown paper and string packaging, also straight from Russia. Could well be for the PKM or so.

Most Russian ammo is not particularly suitable for accuracy work with SVD. Steel core ammunition, which it is, is inaccurate by definition.

The actual accurate ammunition for the sniper rifles is labeled in the boxes and papers with the text "Snaiperskaie" like so:

[alexishere2007]

the SVD was never meant to be a sniper rifle. Don't expect precision rifle accuracy from it because that's not what it was meant for

[Flagg]

I reckon the SVD was decades ahead of opponent direct counterparts in mass production in some respects.

I've fired the SVD on a number of occasions and shot against it in competition....with decent handloads it can perform VERY well...but I reckon the thin barrel heats up pretty quick resulting in groups opening up a bit.....but it's not a surgical scalpel, it's a Tonka Tuff soldier's hammer.

Comparing it in it's original version to it's contemporary counterparts is a bit like comparing a 63 Corvette with a 06 Porsche Turbo.....

When it was designed and originally issued it was light years ahead of it's time in my opinion.

If I were in a sniper pair it wouldn't be on my list of tools to put in the toolbox for lots of reasons.

But if I was in a small unit vehicle patrol operating in open country with latitude to select our gear, I'd give some thought to the SVD or it's more modern counterparts that owe much to the SVD design, to keep on every wagon as the Det "3 Wood".

I think of the SVD as a 50 foot beauty......the closer you get the rougher it might look......but it can still get the job done.....decades sooner and far cheaper than most of the competition.

Just my 0.02c

[18SASS]

I've fired the SVD on a number of occasions and shot against it in competition....with decent handloads it can perform VERY well...but I reckon the thin barrel heats up pretty quick resulting in groups opening up a bit....

I had the same experiance using it for long range. Damn thing needs a mirage band and a heavier profile barrel LOL .

[Corto Maltese]

I reckon the SVD was decades ahead of opponent direct counterparts in mass production in some respects.

I've fired the SVD on a number of occasions and shot against it in competition....with decent handloads it can perform VERY well...but I reckon the thin barrel heats up pretty quick resulting in groups opening up a bit.....but it's not a surgical scalpel, it's a Tonka Tuff soldier's hammer.

Comparing it in it's original version to it's contemporary counterparts is a bit like comparing a 63 Corvette with a 06 Porsche Turbo.....

When it was designed and originally issued it was light years ahead of it's time in my opinion.

If I were in a sniper pair it wouldn't be on my list of tools to put in the toolbox for lots of reasons.

But if I was in a small unit vehicle patrol operating in open country with latitude to select our gear, I'd give some thought to the SVD or it's more modern counterparts that owe much to the SVD design, to keep on every wagon as the Det "3 Wood".

I think of the SVD as a 50 foot beauty......the closer you get the rougher it might look......but it can still get the job done.....decades sooner and far cheaper than most of the competition.

Just my 0.02c

Weapons are like women, the chemistry must work between you and them.

FYI we just forgot about the SVD (which is a beatiful historical specimen indeed) and stuck to the Steyr SSG69 PII (very very good experiences), tried the L96 A1 PM by Accuracy (not exceptional for us) and moved to the much better Accuracy International PSG90 AW Swedish pattern (really excellent) while keeping the (also works in full auto) HK 33 SG1 (excellent) for general use despite being 5.56 mm.

(Pls note that most of my pics are posed, back at camp, at work no one has the time for photos).

[deagle]

i guess it was supposed to be a hybrid of sorts, or a short range sniper rifle (if there is such a thing as short range), or a designated marksman rifle.

the design flaw is almost like the debate whether the m4 sucks b/c its a 5.56 b/c of the round (m4 is a solid weap when properly cared for), or 5.56 lethal potential b/c of muzzle velocity of gun design.

[James]

The SVD isn't and never was a Sniper Rifle. It's a Designated Marksman Rifle.

[jock4688]

the SVD is a very well thought out and measured design to fit Russian reqoirements.
It was a result of Russian sniping experience in WW2 when they found that most targets were under 600m ( eg street fighting and trying to spot someone over 600m away when theres lots of big bangs, rounds and smoke obscuring the battlefield is quite difficult ) and most snipers wanted a quick follow on shot if they missed. In that it succeeded very well indeed. Its comfortable, points well and the optics are certainly good enough for the job.
........x3

[Corto Maltese]

........x3

Very well, but did any of you girls use it in the field? comfortable my b...s, it's a steel rod slammed in your skull and it feels like it falls apart any minute, it's way too long. The tailor-made ammo isn't available anywhere, the optics are just ridiculous. I agree with the principles, and, I say again, I like it, but any SSG is miles ahead. When we work we don't give a damn if it's an historical chapter nor if it's semi or T-bolt, we must be able to sight with a decent scope, dawn or dusk, with a high 'dämmerungswert', rain and sleet and get our target first shot. The SVD definitely does not answer to this brief, that it has been and is widely used simply is because you must make do with what you got.

[crazyman]

when I was an advisor in Iraq I shot several SVDs and enjoyed it. The Iraqis usually taped a pad (usually some packing foam, something like that) to the rifle butt, took the bite out of the recoil. Generally I could hit with it out to about 600m, which is all I would expect out of a weapon designed to be used as an SDM anyway. Bear in mind the thing is designed to be used at squad level, where 600-800 meters is plenty. The more veteran Iraqis knew a couple tricks they all applied to the SVDs to tighten up the shot groups a bit and make the thing more comfortable to shoot...the equivalent of US soldiers putting an accu-wedge into their M4s. They have a lot more experience with the weapon than we do, so for those of you going over that way soon who are curious, check their weapons out.

[Corto Maltese]

when I was an advisor in Iraq I shot several SVDs and enjoyed it. The Iraqis usually taped a pad (usually some packing foam, something like that) to the rifle butt, took the bite out of the recoil. Generally I could hit with it out to about 600m, which is all I would expect out of a weapon designed to be used as an SDM anyway. Bear in mind the thing is designed to be used at squad level, where 600-800 meters is plenty. The more veteran Iraqis knew a couple tricks they all applied to the SVDs to tighten up the shot groups a bit and make the thing more comfortable to shoot...the equivalent of US soldiers putting an accu-wedge into their M4s. They have a lot more experience with the weapon than we do, so for those of you going over that way soon who are curious, check their weapons out.

I hear you, thank you, point made, I agree.

[dangerdan87]

I think what they mean by shorted rifling is they changed the twist rate to something suitable for tracers. Tracers are longer than other rounds though the may weigh the same.

[goat89]

Wow... learned so much about the SVD in this thread. ><

[oldsoak]

Very well, but did any of you girls use it in the field? comfortable my b...s, it's a steel rod slammed in your skull and it feels like it falls apart any minute, it's way too long. The tailor-made ammo isn't available anywhere, the optics are just ridiculous. I agree with the principles, and, I say again, I like it, but any SSG is miles ahead. When we work we don't give a damn if it's an historical chapter nor if it's semi or T-bolt, we must be able to sight with a decent scope, dawn or dusk, with a high 'dämmerungswert', rain and sleet and get our target first shot. The SVD definitely does not answer to this brief, that it has been and is widely used simply is because you must make do with what you got.



Unfortunately not - the only times have been on ranges. Our DM's and Snipers have their own weapon systems and I'm not either. Most of us would have only handled the weapon to carry out safety drills. While I would not compare the optics with anything like an S&B or Zeiss, it certainly was good enough for 600m shots in the conditios we shot at. I cannot comment on dawn/dusk as we didnt shoot at those times. I didnt think it had too much of a recoil, but then I didnt shoot many rounds through it. I didnt think it much different to an SLR in terms of recoil, but matbe thats me. The Moisin Nagant thumped more IMHO. How many rounds would a DM go through in a typical combat or a sniper ? If you consider the highest WW2 scores were about 5 kills per day or less while in combat, he or she might not fire that often.

@crazyman - I did notice FFD wrapped butts and cheeks in some photos. I must confess I thought they were there purely to alter length or stock weld !

[sct1886]

The Russian pattern SVD is the worst rifle I ever shot with. After three rounds the scope flew off. Inaccurate as hell. Impressive though how the ejected cases fly high, hot and strong and fall almost in the same spot... Just a collector's item now.

Please sell me this POS cheap. I included the tutorial for adjusting the scope mounting clamp in case you keep this inaccurate junk.

Scope throw lever adjustment: http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/pso/clamp_adjustments.htm
Scope Tutorial: http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/Manuals/KOPOSPFixedManual.pdf

[Corto Maltese]

Thanks a lot, to sum it up and answer the question of this thread, no it's not a flawed design, especially if put into perspective and era.
The SVD has a certain appeal indeed.
The scope mounting problem has been solved since, but still lags a far last, as compared to western systems available.
One last point is: we field evaluated it, hoping in a sturdy, reliable, reasonably-priced tool we could employ with a non-western signature and using ammo found 'elsewhere'. Results are listed above, too long in the bush, scope inadequate, ammo leave much to be desired, less accurate than what we had already (Steyr SSG PII).

One note: how d'you know precisely at what point in time (shoot at noon in Africa?... ) and how many rounds you're going to shoot? we sometimes waited up to 20 days before firing or had to shoot over 10 long range rounds in one given moment.

One added advantage of the SVD we figured was it's a semi and could come in handy in case of multiple targets. We had to drop the whole idea because of its inaccuracy (at times we go up to 800m and more), length, and -surprisingly- unreliability. Yet, it's perfect for the range and in a collection.

We moved to Accuracy International since, thank you Malcolm Cooper, RIP.

Eloquent pic (sorry for repost)...

[jock4688]

Very well, but did any of you girls use it in the field? comfortable my b...s, it's a steel rod slammed in your skull and it feels like it falls apart any minute, it's way too long. The tailor-made ammo isn't available anywhere, the optics are just ridiculous. I agree with the principles, and, I say again, I like it, but any SSG is miles ahead. When we work we don't give a damn if it's an historical chapter nor if it's semi or T-bolt, we must be able to sight with a decent scope, dawn or dusk, with a high 'dämmerungswert', rain and sleet and get our target first shot. The SVD definitely does not answer to this brief, that it has been and is widely used simply is because you must make do with what you got.

Yes I have one of the boy's I worked with had one it was in mint condition out of the box.
And for a weapon that was designed so long ago and a mass porduced by the Soviet block
it did the job.

[matthew.manhorn]

the SVD was never meant to be a sniper rifle. Don't expect precision rifle accuracy from it because that's not what it was meant for

Still, i'm just surprised of how a scoped 1940's rifle (M-14) outperforms a 1960's designed marksman rifle as a sniper rifle (less moa) and sharpshooting rifle (20 rounds)

[Jippo]

Well a proper 1890 rifle outperforms M14 as a sniper rifle, so what is there to be surprised of? Different weapons, different doctrines, different usage...