AK-47 vs M-16

[Sayeret]

http://www.ak-47.us/AK-47vsM-16.htm

Interesting site talking about advantages and disadvantages to the M-16 and AK-47.

[rob]

i think the last 4 points on the m16's con list belong on the ak's

[ibstolidude]

everyone behave or I'll pull this thread around right now!

I am not joking; don't make me pull over.

[Sayeret]

everyone behave or I'll pull this thread around right now!

I am not joking; don't make me pull over.

It sickens me when Mods abuse their power. ;)

[rob]

well this normally leads to some flaming and the first thing i thought when i saw this thread was, not this can of worms again, yet for some reason i clicked on it anyway.

i guess there is a flicker of hope that it will remain a normaly debate.

[Russian Texan]

Cut and paste.


Some people like M-16, some people preferr that other rifle, it all comes down to personal preferrences dictated by what you were issued, trained and are use to...

Once thing I don't get though, why, WHY on God's Earth, are you comparing Chinese, Romanian, Iraqi, etc. copies of the Russian gun designed in 1940s?

First of all, the difference between those is the same as the difference between Rolex bought on a street in New York and the Rolex bought on Rodeo drive...

Second of all, my dear friends, you do realize that Russian military hasn't used, officially, AK 47 since, what 60s of the last century?

Third, if you want to compare latest and the best M-16 family has to offer - make sure you play a fair game: bring into a contest latest AK's how about AK 107/108, a?


You want to talk about accuracy, bring it!!!

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...

[ibstolidude]

just post your personal opinions and observations - everyones will be different - I am a fan of the M4 over the AK series. & it isn't because the AK series is crap. I am also a fan of steak over fish, although a nice piece of salmon is kust plain supurb. Get it?

Now everyone keep your hands to your self and stay on your side of the seat.

[Dennis G]

are we there yet, are we there yet p-)

[ZeroPositive]

I am going to be boring and Say both are good weapons :)

[Sayeret]

Second of all, my dear friends, you do realize that Russian military hasn't used, officially, AK 47 since, what 60s of the last century?

I know the Russians were using the AKM for a while and then switched to the AK-74 in the Soviet-Afghan war


There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...

I wouldn't say that theres a lot of weapons available to people these days and it wouldn't be hard for someone to obtain an AK-74 or AK-101.

[ArtofPain]

The link above is about comparison an OLD AK with all M16 line. So many points are not true now.
Weight: AK-47 - 4,7 kg, AKM - 3.2 kg, AK-74 - 3.3 kg.
M16A1 - 2.9 kg, M16A2 - 3.7 kg.
I unerstand that getting a new AK models is hard in US so on.
I like my AK (I had AKMS and AK-74 when I was at Army. And Tried some other variants when went to MVD). I like German G3 rifle and SIG 550. I dislike M16.

[hank]

Now everyone keep your hands to your self and stay on your side of the seat.

Can I keep your hands to myself instead? I like Salmon also. I mean AK 47 has a distinctive flavor to be sure, but it just doesn't compare to Salmon, especially Salmon without the forward assist. Salmon was never really the same after they added that forward assist.

hank

[Michael RVR]

If they're going to do that they might as well compare the AK-47 to the M-16A1. In that case, AK all the way... *shrug emoticon*

[Mark Sman]

Do modern Ak variants have bolt hold open devices. Or something that works like them.

Curious.

[ArtofPain]

Do modern Ak variants have bolt hold open devices. Or something that works like them.

Curious.
Some variants has.

[rob]

Do modern Ak variants have bolt hold open devices. Or something that works like them.

Curious.
Some variants has.

more info? i heard something along the lines of that the user can lock the bolt back for clearing the chamber on newer models, but do some actually function like the ar15(bolt is held back at the end of each mag)

[Praetorian 05]

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...

There are a few more around here.

You're comparing apples to oranges. They're both fruits and they grow on trees; but they are completely different.
I think a better comparison between the AK series and the M16 variants would be the AK 74 and the M4. Those two weapons are closest in usage design. The biggest problem trying to compare 47s and 16s is the round; the ballistic difference makes it hard to do. It's like comparing a Thoroughbred to a plow horse.
The 47 is known as a dependable weapon, that will fire under poorly maintained conditions. The mechanical reason is the method of manufacture. The AKs have bigger clearances between the working components. This allows dirt or carbon build up and does not cause cycling problems. The M16 series are made with tighter clearances and need to be maintained better. Carbon and dirt buildup will affect the action long before it does an AK. Is this a benefit? That depends on how well you maintain your weapon.
It depends on the Op as to which I carry. More often than not, I take an M4. However; in situations where it's probable I may have to take out a light vehicle, I prefer the 47.
The M16 series is by far the more accurate of the 2. Being that I am sniper trained, I tend to prefer accuracy over other factors. The M4 is good out to 450 or so, while the AK is around 300; (this I my personal experience with open sights. I'm not comparing w/ACOG, as the AK is not setup for optics). Close in the M4 is easier to handle. CQB is owned by the M4.
I work with shooters that have varied backgrounds, (all services). You hear all the same opinions as you will see on this thread. This debate will go on until the 6.8 replaces the 5.56 as the caliber for the US assault rifle.
Then the new debate will begin for another 30 or more years.

[GazB]

Do modern Ak variants have bolt hold open devices. Or something that works like them.

Curious.

A few Yugoslavian AK variants had bolt hold open devices... but they required special magazines with cutouts in them. Normal mags could also be used but the hold open mechanism wouldn't work if they were used.

I personally like hunting with 7.62 x 39mm cal rifles, at reasonably close range (up to about 200m) the goats I shoot don't seem to be able to tell they weren't hit with a 303 or 7.62 x 51mm round. I usually use Full metal jacket rounds as I prefer a good penetrating round to an expander... that way if it hits a shoulder bone it will still go through the animal.

[oldsoak]

Do modern Ak variants have bolt hold open devices. Or something that works like them.

Curious.

A few Yugoslavian AK variants had bolt hold open devices... but they required special magazines with cutouts in them. Normal mags could also be used but the hold open mechanism wouldn't work if they were used.

I personally like hunting with 7.62 x 39mm cal rifles, at reasonably close range (up to about 200m) the goats I shoot don't seem to be able to tell they weren't hit with a 303 or 7.62 x 51mm round. I usually use Full metal jacket rounds as I prefer a good penetrating round to an expander... that way if it hits a shoulder bone it will still go through the animal.

Try what I do Gaz - cheap Chinese ammo held in a vise and a small drill horizonatally down thru the top for about 5mm or so. Knocks over big reds las good as anything else within reasonable range.

[MEGR]

What I like aboot civilian AKs are the price. They are so darn cheap compared to ARs over here... Even the '74s are going around 500 dollars, half the AR price!

[Sayeret]

What I like aboot civilian AKs are the price. They are so darn cheap compared to ARs over here... Even the '74s are going around 500 dollars, half the AR price!

The AK-47 used to cost around $250 dollars in the US but after 9/11 it became more like $300 or $350 dollars. I'm not totally sure how much an AR-15 costs though.

[MEGR]

What I like aboot civilian AKs are the price. They are so darn cheap compared to ARs over here... Even the '74s are going around 500 dollars, half the AR price!

The AK-47 used to cost around $250 dollars in the US but after 9/11 it became more like $300 or $350 dollars. I'm not totally sure how much an AR-15 costs though.

ARs still go around 800 to 1000 dollars.

[Durandal]

The AK-47 used to cost around $250 dollars in the US but after 9/11 it became more like $300 or $350 dollars. I'm not totally sure how much an AR-15 costs though.

A lot of this depends on what is being released into the market. Romarm AK-47s (pre-ban) are dumped by the boat load in phases. This drops the market value for that type and ones that are much cheaper, like the Maadis and the Norinco ones (*shudder* never buy these btw).

A good composite Russian made AK-47 with composite/plastic furniture runs around 750.00.

AR's range in price from 750.00 (try DPMS/Panther Arms) up to about 3000.00 (Foulton/Custom) for a post-ban or specialty rifle (like a Beuwolf..which runs around 1500.00 to 1800.00). Post-bans still have a similar upper range cost but start-off (new) at around 900.00, usually 1200.00...just because there are A LOT fewer of them and people agree to pay the price (simple amount of product vs. demand...you pay this much simply because of the 1994 AWB).

With that said, that page is faulty in several cases using AK-47 info for the M-16 (in the Cons section).

I also agree that the rifles should be compared, respectively, to rifles that are similar. Thus an AK-47 should be compared to a G3 and most importantly, an M-14. Of course, there is argument there, well, there night between the M14 and the G3 fans. ;)

Then using the smaller cartridges would be up to the user. The 74 is well...ok, we can compare Aug, G-36, and M4. Of course there are a slew of new AKs and the new AN-94 but those are not what the world, in general is using.

They are using AK-47s, FNs, G3s, and M4s.

I am tired of this argument though and I'm happy some folks have suggested some common sense measures early on.

[RomanS]

If I can count all the damn fukin Black Rifle vs Commie Gun debates I participated in, I would probably feel bad about myself.

It would seem like I dont have a live or other **** to do. But they are always interesting debates. However participants must back up their views with experience. Whatever it is, combat or non. At least you need to try both weapons.

Even both is not enough.

Here is what I've shot and played with from the family tree.

AK-47 (Type 3)
AKM
AKMS
AK-74
AKS-74
AKS-74U
RPK
RPK-74
AK-74M
AK-100
AK-103
AK-104
PK
PKM
Type 56
Romanian AKs
Yugos
Bulgarian
Hungarian
East German
Egyptian

M16A1
M16A2
M16A3
M4
Car-15
AR-15
AR-10
Various Bushmasters
M14
Mini14s


I must say that I put a good thousand rounds through each weapon. At the range, in the desert, Spetsnaz range, Russian ranges, training grounds.

I respect both weapons the same.
Here are the things I like about AKs

-They are reliable as hell

-Accurate enough to hit a man size target at 300 yards (Out of 30 rounds of AK-103, I hit 24 at a steel diamond target (4x4) at 300 yards. Usery shooting Range, AZ.

-The ammo is cheap, and powerful.

-7,62 goes through many things, and not much cover is available in the field. Unless you're in a city.

-5,45 is dangerous when it enteres your body. The bullet tumbles inside turning all your internal organs into Lasagna. Afghanie mudjaheds called it "the poison bullet"

-Cleaning of an AK is not nessesary. I went on for 1 year and 4 months without cleaning my AK-74. Shooting it at least 3 times a month as a test. Not a single jam, or even bad round. I only cleaned it because inside was hell, and I felt bad for it. Plus my friends were making fun of it too.

-The sights that I grew up with. Since I was young I used various weapons. Family was in the military, and I had good access. Still do. But I love the AK sights because they are simple, and don't cover most of your view.

-AK-74 Compensator is the best in the world. It reduces the kick, jump, and the recoil dramaticaly. A lot of American weapon designers admit that AK74 break is the best.

-I love the furniture on AKs. THe AKS and AK-74M buttstocks folded make the rifle shorter than Any collapsable M4 stock.

-The magazines are also tough to break or damage. I did a test where I took an East German 5,45 bakelite, and punished it with big rocks, hit it with the buttstock, threw it against concrete, rocks, and trees. There were major scratches, but not a single crack. I loaded 30 rounds, and not a single jam. After that we decided to shot 3 rounds into it. So we did. Nice 3 holes at the bottome of the mag, and we still managed to load 20 some rounds, and shoot them all.

-AKs look sexy


Now here are the things I dont like about AKs

-They heat up too fast, and if you have plastic furniture on them, its bad after 2-3 mags on full auto. Almost impossible to hold it without gloves.
The reciever is also heats up.

-Orange bakelite mags. Not sure why they went with Orange. Can't hide with it in the green or white.

-This one is actually the ammo, not AK. The surplus Tula ammo has painted red line around the bullet, and a red paint on a primer. The bold always collects that red ****, and it looks nasty after couple of thousand rounds without cleaning. Bleeding bolt we call it. Ulyanovsk and Barnaul stuff is not as bad.

-Getting the cleaning kit out of a buttstock can be painful sometimes. Putting it in is easy.


Thats about it.


Now I've shot a lot of select fire M16s, and I love the fire rate on them. Here is what I like about M16 a lot.

-Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. Hands down if M16 fires, it can place a shot where you are aiming. Exactly where you are aiming. Zeroing it is also easy if you have a Carry handle mod.

-You can trick the rifle how ever you want it. Great optics and aiming devices are available.

-I love the M4s collapsabale buttstock. Its easy to adjust for your shoulder length.

-The trigger is smooth and comfortbale.

-The selector switch is also reachable

-very light


The things I dont like

-The price

-Jamming issues usally because of the ammo

-magazines are weak


and thats pretty much it.
-some muzzle breaks are horrible

[ArtofPain]

Permskii nice List! woot

[GazB]

Try what I do Gaz - cheap Chinese ammo held in a vise and a small drill horizonatally down thru the top for about 5mm or so. Knocks over big reds las good as anything else within reasonable range.

I heard a story once... don't know whether it is an urban myth or if it was real, but anyway here it is...

This chap was cutting the tips off FMJ rounds for using them as soft tip hunting rounds. The story goes that he cut one too far back and when he fired it in his rifle this hollow base spire point round with a mild lead core blew through in his barrel... ie with the jacket missing from the tip and the lead core exposed at the rear the chamber pressure blew through the barrel leaving the jacket material halfway down the barrel. His next shot blew up an enormous bulge in the barrel and due to the fact that it was a fully wooded 303 there was a loud crack as the stock where the barrel bulged was shattered.

This bulging of the barrel makes sense to me as although many foolish hunters think firing a round will clean a barrel by blowing out the rubbish in there, it actually is very bad for the barrel as the bullet doesn't push material ahead of it down the barrel... it pushes it sideways into the barrel... in this case of the story the second round would have travelled to the position of the stuck round and then tried to push the remains into the barrel to get past. The enormous increase in pressure was too much for the barrel and it gave way before the blockage did... the humble 303 generates about 18 tonnes of pressure per square inch in the chamber...

Anyway, what I am trying to say is always be careful doctoring ammo.

I would assume that as most of the ammo I use is steel cored that that couldn't happen, but I am not going to take the risk. I have a few interesting rounds anyway... I have a few tracer rounds for my SLR, some other tracer rounds for my 303 and for my 7.62 x 54mmR rifles which I'd like to try out, and I have a couple of Armour Piercing Incendiary rounds in 7.62 x 39mm that I would like to try out... the latter will no doubt be tested against tins of Petrol... :-)

[oldsoak]

I'l bear that in mind the next batch of stuuf I do when I go down south again.
As for the petrol cans - naughty, naughty :) ...fun...

[Durandal]

Why the hell are you using Chinese ammo? That stuff is crap. It may be cheap, but the stuff sucks and is NOT safe. Then you suggest modify the crappy ammo!?

You have got to be kidding me.

Listen to GazB's little story it has happened to a friend of mine as well...a little bit different, but very similar.

[MEGR]

So wait. Is surplus ammo bad in general? I just bought 20 rounds of 7.62x51 from Spain for 4.99.

[Mark Sman]

Milsurp ammo is OK for plinking.

The only thing to watch out for is ammo from the 60s and earlier may be corrosive, depending on manufacturer.

If that Spanish ammo has the NATO headstamp it should be fine Milsurp. You can beat that price though.

http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/natocase.jpg

Little circle and cross dealie is the NATO headstamp.

[Durandal]

So wait. Is surplus ammo bad in general? I just bought 20 rounds of 7.62x51 from Spain for 4.99.

Surplus can be bad. Usually in misfires. The cap does not go off and you simply have a dimple. You extract or eject the round on insert the next.

I would also suggest not buying reloads either. There might be one or two companies out there that do a good job, but unless you are someone you REALLY trust does it, I would shy away from those.

Then, look at your surplus. Sometimes your surplus ammo is actually reloaded. Never trust that stuff.

If you get a round that has nothing but a primer cap in it and no powder, you have a bullet jammed in the barrel. The primer usually has enough power to get it of the cartridge but not enough to force it out of the barrel. This REALLY sucks if you are using tracers and you get one burning in the barrel. It won't blow the barrel, but it will fuse the bullet to the barrel. I have seen this happen myself. Not fun.

Fortunately, the primer usually does not have enough charge to to fully eject a cartridge if you are using a semi-automatic rifle. So the chance of you loading another round become less...which is when it gets REALLY dangerous.

If you can afford it, you want to shoot good ammo, period. Reloading your own is fine, so long as you know what you are doing.

Getting good deals on surplus ammo is great. My friend picked up a case of 2250 rounds of 8mm ammo for his Mausers for less than 100.00 USD. A great deal. he also knows that he on shoots this ammo through his crap guns in case the stuff sucks.

There is ALWAYS more of risk using surplus and poor quality new ammo (like the Chinese stuff and pre-1999 Russian). Even the new Wolf stuff is sort of shady in some ways depending on what you are shooting of theirs. The older steel rounds with the heavy green varnish leave residue on the bore and bolt. A person that does not clean their rifle frequently OR well, will start to reduce the size of the bore as the residue builds up till the round either jams, or worse, seats poorly with a blow back.

Shooting is an inherently dangerous hobby. I know and understand this...and respect it. I research and spend time making sure all my guns and ammo are in good condition. If I have a question that I cannot answer I go to my local Gunsmith who knows his sh*t.

Being safe is the first concern and I guarantee that as soon as you starting using and modifying Chinese ammo the last thing you are is safe. As for surplus. I have shot lots of it...it all depends on what you shoot. ;)

[oldsoak]

Why the hell are you using Chinese ammo? That stuff is crap. It may be cheap, but the stuff sucks and is NOT safe. Then you suggest modify the crappy ammo!?

You have got to be kidding me.

Listen to GazB's little story it has happened to a friend of mine as well...a little bit different, but very similar.

No, deadly serious. I've never had any problems with Chicom stuff. The only time theres been a problem is becuase the primers are pretty tough and my bolt action need a little tweaking. I do not do this to the live round btw. I pull it and re assemble. I think I spoke out of turn on this one, so I'll drop it.

[Durandal]

I think I spoke out of turn on this one, so I'll drop it.

Don't sweat it dude. i tend to be over cautious when it comes to stuff like that. I tend to forget that not everyone shares the same views.

[oldsoak]

I think I spoke out of turn on this one, so I'll drop it.

Don't sweat it dude. i tend to be over cautious when it comes to stuff like that. I tend to forget that not everyone shares the same views.

Fair one - better safe than sorry.

[MEGR]

I've only had one prob with surplus. It was with an m88 ball 762x51 made in India. When i shot the thing, the bullet didn't shoot out the barrel, instead it when backwards and buried itself inside the shell where it stayed. Other than that, the rest of the ammo was pretty good.

[Geezah]

So wait. Is surplus ammo bad in general? I just bought 20 rounds of 7.62x51 from Spain for 4.99.

I buy the Russian surplus all the time for my AK from Aim, works fine and never had any problems(knock on wood :) )
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/A762x39MS%20copy.gif

Durandal, might have a few guys ready to go to Knob in Oct :D

[Durandal]

Durandal, might have a few guys ready to go to Knob in Oct :D

Yeah baby...looks like about 10 here...plus yours and maybe a couple strays. :)

[FuturePara]

That website's funny.
Under pro's for the Ak it says light.
Then under con's it says heavy.
lol

[GazB]

Why the hell are you using Chinese ammo? That stuff is crap. It may be cheap, but the stuff sucks and is NOT safe. Then you suggest modify the crappy ammo!?


I think suggesting it is not safe without modification is a little inaccurate. It will certainly not make target shooting level, but I often use it for plinking or against live targets that the round is over kill for. For example I know of many hunters here who hunt goats with .22lr and for a clean kill an accurate hit to the neck is effective. FMJ (Full metal jacket) ammo in 7.62 x 39mm is perfectly adequate for chest shots out to 100m. At longer ranges I don't feel confident of getting an accurate hit and a clean kill so I don't bother firing at longer ranges than that for that sort of target.

(For those unfamiliar with the term FMJ a simple description would be that to make bullets more effective they are often made out of lead to make them dense and heavy. This reduces overall drag and improves range and effectiveness. But lead is very soft... you can cut grooves into it with your fingernail, so to make it retain its shape it is often covered in a harder metal like copper or mild steel. This harder metal is called a jacket. If the jacket covers the sides and point of the round it is called a FMJ or full metal jacket and will normally not deform on impact with a target. To kill animals more efficiently hunters often used soft point ammo which is a FMJ round with the tip of the bullet having the jacket material removed and either a hollow or the lead core exposed. When it hits a target the lead tip flattens and from the side the flat tip and the rear core look like a mushroom shape from the side... this creates a bigger hole in the target that leads to quicker blood loss and hopefully shock and a quicker death.) (Many FMJ rounds have exposed lead cores at their tail end... they are still called FMJ rounds as they do not deform when they hit soft targets. Most Soviet FMJ rounds have steel cores to improve armour penetration.)

I agree that altering rounds is very dangerous and spending a few extra dollars on the proper rounds is in my opinion well worth the money. (What value do you put on your eyes, hands, or even your firearm?)


Surplus can be bad. Usually in misfires. The cap does not go off and you simply have a dimple. You extract or eject the round on insert the next.

But sometimes it is the only real option. Now that 303 ammo is no longer widely used it is becoming more and more expensive, and surplus ammo is getting harder and harder to find here in NZ. Quite often the surplus ammo we get here is WWII stuff that has been stored somewhere. It quite often misfires, but fortunately with the old Lee Enfield rifles I use if it does fail to go bang I can manually pull back on the cocking device and fire again... while keeping the rifle pointed safely downrange of course. If it doens't go off the first time it has always gone off the second time for me. Have never had any problems with my Russian or Chinese ammo in that regard but then they are not as old as the 303 ammo I am firing. (Most of the Russian and Chinese ammo I use is 80s or later manufacture).


There is ALWAYS more of risk using surplus and poor quality new ammo (like the Chinese stuff and pre-1999 Russian).


Even the best producers sometimes have problems. I have heard of several recalls and notices not to use NATO .308 stocks of certain batch numbers.

You have mentioned no powder and corrosive primers but the most dangerous situation is a large capacity case and not enough powder. Normally the powder will burn from the primer to the bullet, but if there is not enough powder and too much empty space in a cartridge case you can have a chamber detonation... ie instead of burning the powder detonates all at once. (If you want to find out what I mean under NO CIRCUMSTANCES TRY THIS WITH A FIREARM!!!!. A safer comparison would be to get a sky rocket and pull out the fuse and shake out a bit of powder. Then put the fuze back in and then light the fuse and stand well back. Normally when full of powder a sky rocket will try to burn expanding up, sideways and down. Down is normally the only way it can expand and the powder will burn from the bottom end of the rocket to the top end with the powder always being pushed up and compressed by the burning powder below it. By removing some of the powder you create an airpocket in the top of the sky rocket that allows the powder to burn upwards. The hole for the fuze is small so expanding upwards is easier than blowing out the little hole in the bottom of the rocket... as the powder burns up it ignites all the powder at once which generates more pressure than can be released by the hole in the bottom and the whole rocket will detonate with a very loud bang... warning playing with any explosive material is very dangerous... I suggest you take my word and learn from my experience. (If you buy a bag of skyrockets and one rocket is missing its fuze, which you find in the bottom of the bag with some black powder don't put the fuze back in and launch it anyway... it smashed the top of the bottle we were using for a launcher...)

Regarding the corrosive ammo, I think we need a bit of clarification, we are talking about the difference between Mercury Fulminate and Lead Fulminate primers. Corrosive primers just means that the material left in the barrel attracts moisture and will rust relatively quickly if ignored. Having said that most of the rifles I use Chinese ammo with are Russian or Chinese and have chrome plated bores that resist rusting very well.

I also clean my rifles very carefully after I fire them and I have had no problems whatsoever with the Chinese and Russian ammo I have used.


Don't sweat it dude. i tend to be over cautious when it comes to stuff like that. I tend to forget that not everyone shares the same views.

The guy who is overly cautious is very easy to spot... he still has all ten fingers... :-) ...Very sensible.

[GazB]

I also clean my rifles very carefully after I fire them and I have had no problems whatsoever with the Chinese and Russian ammo I have used.


Oops, should clarify that. When i say no problems whatsoever I should mention that with a few 7.62 x 54mm rounds in my bolt action Mosin Nagant Rifles I have had quite a few round that split at the neck. The steel cases they use are not as elastic as more expensive brass cases, but as I don't try to reload the cheap steel cases that is not important and certainly not a problem. (Note being a rimmed round the 7.62 x 54mm round does not need accurate headspacing as the bullet is held by its rim rather than the neck shoulder of the bullet case.)

[Mark Sman]

Now that 303 ammo is no longer widely used


I'm in the same boattail. Do not buy the ammo marked POF on the headstamp. It is Pakastani surplus and is total crap. You will be pulling the cocking piece (he he) all day long. And its corrosive.

The stuff marked HXP is Greek, and quite good. Sadly, it seems the last of the HXP is drying up, and I have been buying Sellier and Bellot of late. S&B is quite accurate though.

I hate reloading.

[GazB]

There are plenty of 303 rifles available here... I might just have to retire my existing rifles (as they are interesting) and just buy a 303 that has been converted to a sporting rifle (ie the stock has been altered) and get it converted to 7.62 x 39mm. Apparantly the Russian ammo is the same calibre (actually .311 cal) and that ammo is cheap enough.... and at short range the target won't know the difference.

[Mark Sman]

Yeah, I've heard lots of people do that down under. I'm still waiting for Tristar to get the No4Mk4Ts in 7.62x51 imported. About $750 for what I want.

http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm

I called a little while ago, and they are still not in. Soon though, soon.

I can't convert any of my Enfields, just couldn't do it. Maybe if it came that way and I didn't have to feel as guilty.

[GazB]

I can't convert any of my Enfields, just couldn't do it. Maybe if it came that way and I didn't have to feel as guilty.

Feel the same about mine... I have a Mk5 Jungle Carbine and a MK4* (the * means it was made in the US by Savage for the Brits).

[Pandy]

ugh;

I don't know where some of you guys are getting some of your prices...

I got my pre-ban AKS (Made in China AK-47) for $500 dollars (about 800-1000 in market, i was lucky the guy didn't know what he was selling.)

I put together my own pre-ban AR-15 (Made in USA) for $600 dollars.

I got my SAR-2 (AK-74) for $250 dollars.

I got all those toys in the pass 2 years, i've got many more like FALs, etc.

Take a look at this; http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Romanian_AK_WASR_10_7_62x39_Rifle.html

They took the SAR-2's off their site but eh... The only reason I can think of for the high AR-15s are the fact that, they might be marksman, new, or damn good rifles. I've got another AR-15 that is Made in USA Colt, got a grouping with it (16x scope) from 400 yards of 3.5 inches...

Both rifles are mightly fine, i work take both into battle if anything.

[Geezah]

ugh;

I don't know where some of you guys are getting some of your prices...

I got my pre-ban AKS (Made in China AK-47) for $500 dollars (about 800-1000 in market, i was lucky the guy didn't know what he was selling.)



Was it an underfolder or Mak90?