Rape in South Africa

[Rudolph]

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but this stuff is so sick, and rubbish like political correctness keeps it out of the mainstream press...


Boy, 11, up for raping girl, 4

Johannesburg - An 11-year-old boy was expected to appear in court on Thursday for allegedly raping a four-year-old girl in Soweto, Johannesburg police said on Wednesday.

Inspector Kay Makhubela said the girl went out to play in the yard of her house in Mofolo, when the boy called her over to his house on Tuesday.

"When the mother later called her, she came running out with her panties and her clothes in her hand," said Makhubela.

The girl allegedly told her mother the boy tried to penetrate her.

Makhubela said a doctor found there had been no penetration.

"A rape case has been opened but I think it will be treated as indecent assault," said Makhubela.

The boy was not arrested but left in his parents' care.

He was expected to appear with his parents in the Protea Magistrate's Court on Thursday.

He will also be examined by a social worker.


- SAPA

http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/aeb4ebd08d644cd590ea5faa0e8a4b7a/17-02-2010-01-41/Boy,_11,_up_for_raping_girl,_4


5, 6, 7-year-old boys up for rape

Johannesburg - A three-year-old toddler was raped, allegedly by three boys aged five, six and seven, Eastern Cape police said on Wednesday.

Captain Jackson Manatha said a woman left her three-year-old daughter with her neighbour when she attended a funeral on Sunday. On her return, she was informed the girl had been raped by the three boys.

Manatha said the three boys would be arrested and released into the custody of their parents.

- SAPA

http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/ec0ab00691914a8e853351ddb0025832/23-12-2009-05-31/5,_6,_7-year-old_boys_up_for_rape_


Gang rape: A youth cult in South African townships (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/264956)


Oh, and if you're a lesbian in a township you'll get "corrective" rape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twzajfLLUZc

[NUCKINFUTS]

If there's one thing you can say you own in this world, it would be your body. No one has the right to tell you who you should like and what you to associate yourself with. So much for setting an example for the younger generation.

[2495]

From the country where the animals rape babies to 'cure their AIDs' nothing, absolutely nothing suprises me anymore.

[Eye]

So what was worse - apartheid or current situation?

[Rudolph]

So what was worse - apartheid or current situation?

A lot of this was obviously going on during apartheid as well... which I guess was another reason people didn't want the "masses" to be able to vote and rule. But anyway, not really a political issue. Just a failure of humanity...

[MaDuce]

I was wondering has the worsening situation in SA caused a brain drain??

[Rudolph]

I was wondering has the worsening situation in SA caused a brain drain??

Of course, a terrible one at that! Even worse, the black middle-class are also fleeing overseas. Who's gonna be left? These guys in the YouTube clip? My god...

[Eye]

But anyway, not really a political issue. Just a failure of humanity...
I think it's connected. Without using force and efficient justice system you can't change behaviour of such people. Situation seems to be critical, so some emergency tools should be used.

[Noons86]

I'd say, with respect to this situation, the only difference between now and the apartheid era is that the media is spending more time in the townships.

I'm not from South Africa, and too young to remember the late 80's, but does anyone who lived during the Apartheid era know if the media paid any attention to the townships?

[Rudolph]

I'd say, with respect to this situation, the only difference between now and the apartheid era is that the media is spending more time in the townships.

I'm not from South Africa, and too young to remember the late 80's, but does anyone who lived during the Apartheid era know if the media paid any attention to the townships?

There were lots of liberal journalists in South Africa, especially amongst the English press... And their attitude now comes back to bite them in the ass. During apartheid no one would dare address issues about guerilla attacks on civilians, rape, murder, tribal wars, because it would work against African liberation and their image of perfection. No-one thought about the affect it would have to encourage children not to attend school - now you sit with all these issues and a whole generation of unemployable, tribal people completely out of place. And then they wonder why the country went to **** after freedom was attained.

[Flamming_Python]

So what was worse - apartheid or current situation?

Yes bring back apartheid when the European population treated the Africans as sub-humans! Such attitudes were at least as inhuman as this sort of behaviour.

[OrangeWolf]

There were lots of liberal journalists in South Africa, especially amongst the English press... And their attitude now comes back to bite them in the ass. During apartheid no one would dare address issues about guerilla attacks on civilians, rape, murder, tribal wars, because it would work against African liberation and their image of perfection. No-one thought about the affect it would have to encourage children not to attend school - now you sit with all these issues and a whole generation of unemployable, tribal people completely out of place. And then they wonder why the country went to **** after freedom was attained.

Excellent post.

[budgie]

So what was worse - apartheid or current situation?

Part of the problem is the culture of poverty and lack of education fostered under apartheid for so many years

[deagle]

disgustingly dispicable

[Sada]

This is not about tough law enforcement or hard laws, but about education of the fathers. I suppose in South Africa there must be in the legal system the concept of culpability "in vigilando", I don´t know a 6y.o. boy that simply knows that a human being can be ******ly raped, really sad thing. It wouldn´t fair to talk about apartheid in this thread, this is another different thing. I hope southafricans have a good future.

[BLUE THOR]

Two things are required: Education, and 7.62 (for those who fail/refuse to learn)

[Rudolph]

It's not just about lack of education or poverty, there are even tribal customs where a man has to go out and rape a woman before be can be called a man. There's been lots of debate and documentaries on local tv about this barbaric aspect of some native tribes...

Anyway, apparently raping is a sport that really took off in the 1980's as a way of magninalised African men to show their worth by raping blacks who made a success of their lives:

"Rape is an occurrence which, according to official statistics, occurred approximately 16,000 times annually during the 1980s. By 1992, the official figure for rape was 24,700.4 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#note4) Unofficially, based on the premise put forward by the National Institute of Crime Rehabilitation that only one in twenty rapes are reported, the figure is about 494,000 a year. This means that on average approximately one thousand three hundred women can be expected to be raped a day in South Africa.

"The word "jackroll" was coined to refer to the forceful abduction of women in black townships by a specific gang called the "Jackrollers" which operated in the years 1987/1988 in the Diepkloof area of Soweto. The original Jackroller gang was made up of a tight network of less than ten associates, and was led by Jeff Brown, who quickly earned the "status" of the most feared man in the township. The most notable practices of the Jackrollers were rape and abduction, car theft and bank robbery. As the abduction of women became fashionable however, anyone who did it could be called a jackroller, and "jackroll" became a commonly used verb in the township vocabulary. The emergence of jackrolling coincided with the increase in township based youth violence and a dramatic rise in youth unemployment.

There are a number of aspects which make jackrolling different from ordinary rape. Firstly, it is primarily a youth phenomenon. Although rape is committed by males of all ages, jackrolling is committed by people who are still fairly young. Secondly, it is almost always committed in the open, and the rapists do not make attempts to conceal their identity. As a matter of fact, it seems that part of the exercise is to be as public as possible about the offence so as to earn respect. Most incidents of jackroll are committed in places like shebeens (informal township bars), picnic spots, schools, nightclubs and in the streets. Jackroll is often committed by roving gangs of armed youths.

A peculiar characteristic of jackroll is that it is seen as a sport of the tough gangsters. There is in fact a common township saying that: "Jackroll is not a crime it is just a game". As one commentator points out: "It has become a male fashion, that is, a popular form of male behaviour indulged in by even young school boys … . The tough and 'manly' jackrollers become their role models."

"These women think they are better than anyone else, they look down on us, they prefer men who have money and drive in nice cars. When these women get jackrolled its okay, she likes big men so let them give it to her."

http://www.csvr.org.za/wits/papers/paplvsl.htm

[Rudolph]

delete, please.

[Noons86]

I'd like to see some of those jackrollers on the business end of a Rooivalk.

[Hispeed1]

Sad, very sad.

[Rudolph]

I know this is a very complex issue, but at the end of the day the only way these practices are going to stop is if a whole generation of black children can grow up without being exposed to this type of "township" culture. I understand how the apartheid government's searches, sometimes humiliation, must have made a dent in the African man's ego and respect in-front of his family. But hell, we suffered too at the turn of the century and overcame our inferiority complex by educating our people and urbanising them. It's now up to the community leaders to tackle these issues, they need to form responsible groups, who can educate the boys in their community. I forsee a long, hard struggle in this country...

[Arnie100]

These fvckers need to be jackrolled themselves!

[OrangeWolf]

Part of the problem is the culture of poverty and lack of education fostered under apartheid for so many years

I don't really believe this. Many problems in South Africa seem to be related to the mentality of certain tribes. Besides how long can apartheid be used as an excuse for general misbehavior and incompetence? Like other Africans can play the colonialism-exploitation card for how long? In some black cultures the whole attitude towards women as deeply entrenched in their mentality. For goodness sake the Zulu tribe (and I suppose others) can now have multiple wives in accordance with the law.

The Xhosa still have circumcision ritual where multiple near-adult men are circumsized with the same knife, no wonder aids will spread. What prevents them from doing this in a more clinical environment? Or at least what prevents them from not using the same knife twice (heck, a lot more than twice). Apartheid cannot be blamed, this ritual has been there for centuries, along with the misbehavior against women by some tribes.

And the fact the ANC never gave up violence as a legitimate form of struggle (one of the reasons Mandela wasn't released earlier) doesn't help the government much either, since the people the ANC claimed to be fighting for (although those black workers who were killed by ANC farm landmines would disagree) now still use a lot of violence when protesting. Look at the army riots last year.

Sure apartheid as a system is not infitely justifiable, and yes the laws did classify black-white-colored-indian etc. But clearly it was more complex than the color of skin. It were different groups of people with cultures of such vast differences that they were worlds apart. One came to South Africa and became tough due to the harsh climate, established universities and infrastructure. Others still see mass circumsizion, rape and a general mentality which doesn't fit an modern democracy as part of its culture. And many of those blacks who are educated and have the full capabilities and competence to be the future of South Africa are now leaving the country too. Because the place is run by absolutely incompetent Africans.

[Dwelm]

Two things are required: Education, and 7.62 (for those who fail/refuse to learn)


I'd like to see some of those jackrollers on the business end of a Rooivalk.


These fvckers need to be jackrolled themselves!

X2 to all on top

[Rudolph]

Another baby raped...

Farmworker's baby raped, abused

Johannesburg - Eastern Cape police are investigating the murder of a five-month-old baby after a post mortem revealed that she was raped and "severely abused", spokesperson Wena Theron says.

Theron said: "An inquest docket was opened when she died on February 12, but a post mortem revealed that she had been raped and severely abused."

The post mortem also revealed that the girl, who had lived with her parents on the farm where they worked about 60km from Aberdeen, had three broken ribs.

Theron said: "Her mother woke the farmer at about 03:00 on Friday last week, saying that the baby had been coughing, but when the ambulance arrived, the baby had already died."

No arrests had been made.


- SAPA

http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/d43839f46566441d9bb40785579d033d/18-02-2010-07-44/Farmworkers_baby_raped,_abused

[Arnie100]

A baby!? :cantbeli:

[Rudolph]

A baby!? :cantbeli:

Child rape: A taboo within the AIDS taboo; More and more girls are being raped by men who believe this will 'cleanse' them of the disease, but people don't want to confront the issue

WHEN seven-year-old Sibongile saw Baba, her 62-year-old neighbour, standing in the doorway of her house, she trustingly invited him inside.

She knew the old man well - she used to play with his four grandchildren in the sand.

But while she sat at a table in her one-roomed house, happily drawing figures on a piece of paper, he called her to the rickety single bed she shared with her mother and told her he was going to show her his "toy".

Before the Grade 2 pupil from Claremont, near Durban, could react, he pulled down her panties and raped her.

Then he placed his fingers across her lips and warned her not to tell anyone about their "game".

That night, when her 38-year-old mother returned from work, Sibongile complained of being "sore".

But it only after her mother took her daughter to a doctor did the little girl sob and blurt out her story.

Initially denying any involvement in the rape, Baba eventually told Sibongile's mother that he was HIV positive and had wanted to "cleanse" himself by having *** with a virgin.

Sibongile's story is by no means unique.

According to University of Durban-Westville anthropology lecturer and researcher Suzanne Leclerc-Madlala, it is an increasingly typical scenario, played out daily in hundreds of homes throughout South Africa (http://www.militaryphotos.net/countries/safrica.html) as AIDS carriers target girls under eight years old for *** in the belief that it will cure them of the dreaded disease.

As the deadly virus tightens its stranglehold on South Africa, justice officials and AIDS workers say that in KwaZuluNatal alone at least five rape cases involving girls under eight are being dealt with daily in every magistrate's court in the province.

An in-depth investigation by Leclerc-Madlala, who is completing a doctoral thesis on AIDS and related gender issues, suggests that a popular myth that *** with a virgin is the cure for AIDS could be the root cause of this shocking upsurge in child rapes.

The 41-year-old American researcher was the first white woman to marry a black South African when the infamous Immorality and Mixed Marriages Act was scrapped in June 1985.

The mother of four conducted her research among the poverty-stricken rural community of St Wendolins, outside Durban, where she was forced to live for six years after being constantly hounded and persecuted by apartheid-era policemen for marrying a black man.

"I lived in a two-roomed clay and wattle hut with my husband, his two brothers and their seven children as well as my husband's 80-year-old grandmother - and 10 goats.

"Water was a 5km walk away, and there were no lights or proper sanitation. But I got to understand the locals and their myths, fears and expectations."

She became known as the white makoti (young bride) in St Wendolins.

In Leclerc-Madlala's study involving the local residents, women respondents said the AIDS-cure myth was widespread among Zulu men, particularly those from rural areas.

She notes disturbing similarities between the way in which ******ly transmitted diseases were dealt with in Europe in the last century and the manner in which AIDS is being addressed today.

"According to 19th-century beliefs, *** with a child was thought to provide a cure for syphilis," she says.

"Quack doctors kept special brothels in Liverpool since 1827 to provide this cure.

"Most of the girls used in the brothels were imbeciles."

According to Leclerc-Madlala, the myth that *** with a virgin is a cure for AIDS is not confined to KwaZulu-Natal.

"Fellow AIDS researchers in Zambia (http://www.militaryphotos.net/countries/zambia.html), Zimbabwe (http://www.militaryphotos.net/countries/zimbabwe.html) and Nigeria (http://www.militaryphotos.net/countries/nigeria.html) have told me that the myth also exists in these countries and that it is being blamed for the high rate of ****** abuse against young children."

Her experience in St Wendolins and her participation in AIDS education programmes indicate that the myth is more prevalent than local authorities in South Africa and AIDS educators are prepared to acknowledge.

It may also, she says, be a significant factor in the reported rapid rise in the past few years of ****** abuse and HIV infection among young girls in the province.

Leclerc-Madlala advances two arguments for the myth.

"Some say a child virgin avoids infection by nature of being 'closed up there' (a reference to the ******).

"Many see the ******l passage into the body as being 'sealed off' by an intact hymen. The intact hymen is viewed as a barrier, which prevents the HIV 'germ' from getting into and settling in the girl's blood.

"The belief is that a man will somehow get an infusion of 'clean blood' through this method.

"Another view offered by respondents as to why a virgin girl is believed to have special immunity against ******ly transmitted afflictions in general has to do with her 'dry' ******l tract.

"Generally speaking, a prepubescent girl is not seen as having the ******l secretions of an adult woman.

"Her ******l tract, yet undeveloped, is perceived as 'clean', 'dry' and 'uncontaminated' as she herself is considered morally clean."

Leclerc-Madlala despairs at what she believes has become a taboo within the AIDS taboo.

"I feel sick in my stomach when I think of the number of young children who are raped by these men who claim that it will cleanse them of AIDS. But because it's such a sensitive issue with potentially racist overtones people don't want to confront the issue."

Leclerc-Madlala, who has also carried out a study on the responses of the Zulu youth to the AIDS epidemic, found that child rape is also committed as a preventive measure to avoid contracting the HIV/AIDS virus from older women.

A 23-year-old male respondent told her: "The thing is everybody over 12 years old in the township might already have the virus. So your chances of not getting it are better if you go for the six- or eight-year-olds. Not 10-year-olds - some are already pretty experienced by that time."

A 20-year-old told her: "If I have HIV I can just go out and spread it to 100 people so we all go together. Why should they be left behind having fun if I must die?"

Nono Simelela, the director of the national AIDS programme, agrees with Leclerc-Madlala that the myth that AIDS could be cured by having *** with a virgin is prevalent thinking in KwaZulu-Natal.

"But it's totally wrong and tragic, and it's putting lots of young children at risk. People need to really understand what the AIDS virus does to the body," she says.

Ubashany Naidoo, the deputy director of Childline, says the myth is causing huge problems.

"We are seeing more and more cases of young rape victims as a result. Some of these children have been raped quite violently.

"Also, a lot of people prefer having *** with children knowing that there is a big chance that the kid may not be HIV-infected."

Dennis Bailey, the KwaZulu-Natal director of the non-governmental organisation Planned Parenthood Association of South Africa, says the myth is particularly prevalent among one section of the community in the province.

Even the courts in the province are feeling the effects of this new crisis.

Ashen Singh, a magistrate at Camperdown, in the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands, says at least five child rape victim cases are being dealt with every day and that "some of the accused have told us that raping a virgin would help them to get rid of AIDS".

A Stanger court prosecutor, Ayesha Bissessar, says they deal with between 50 and 80 cases of child rape a month.

"It's the same story here. Most of the alleged rapists tell us that having *** with virgins is a cure for AIDS. Some say that they wanted to avoid contracting AIDS and felt safer having *** with young children."

The overwhelming silence over AIDS and the lack of real discussion about ******ity among Africans is, in the words of Leclerc-Madlala, where the real problem lies.

For children like Sibongile, still traumatised by the rape itself, the wait has just begun.

Her mother spends her days praying against hefty odds that her daughter is not about to become just another AIDS statistic.

http://www.aegis.com/news/suntimes/1999/ST990401.html

[JJHH]

Sorry to say, but SA seems to be quite a ****hole..

[Atlantic Friend]

So what was worse - apartheid or current situation?

It's an odd question. The apartheid-era townships weren't exactly crime- and rape-free, it's not as if it was EITHER apartheid OR rape.

[gaijinsamurai]

One sad fact is that all too often, countries who become "democratic" end up mired in lawlessness to a degree that many people long for the old iron-fisted rule of their old governments. I saw it happen in Guatemala, and some people think Iraqis were better off under Sadaam Hussein.

[Rudolph]

^
That's what's suppose to happen when you force a system on people who have no history of that type of governance.


South Africa: After Apartheid

A major crusader failing is they seldom look back to their last crusade to see how it turned out. During my several South Africa visits, up to three months on one occasion, during its apartheid era, I lectured at nearly all of its universities. I had the opportunity to meet formally and informally with just about every group: blacks, coloureds, Indians, English and Afrikaner. On the eve of one visit, I was invited to address a mixed audience of about a thousand or so people to discuss my impressions of South Africa. I frankly told them that South Africans deserved one another. Nobody was interested in liberty. Afrikaner whites thought they were ordained to control the lives of others. British white liberals thought the same thing but in a more benevolent way. For their part, blacks just wanted to change the color of the dictator.

Some thought my prognostication a bit harsh but fast-forward to today and you'll hear a similar concern echoed from an unlikely quarter. South Africa's Nobel Laureate, Archbishop Desmond Tutu recently told the nation's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, referring the African National Congress' (ANC) human rights violations, "I didn't struggle in order to remove one set of those who thought they were tin gods, to replace them with others who are tempted to think they are."

Under apartheid South Africa had the Population Registration Act that classified its citizens by race. Today, the ANC, South Africa's ruling party wants racial classification but they call it affirmative action. The ANC's vision of race, job qualifications and employment is, as one of its officials put it, "It is imperative to get rid of merit as the overriding principle in the employment of public servants." Pushing costly, inefficient employment policy is absurd in the face of South Africa's 30 percent unemployment rate. Another part of ANC policy is income redistribution "to compensate the victims of apartheid." That's another costly burden for a sagging economy that has seen per capita income decline significantly since 1989.

Even though South Africa is in the financial doldrums, it is nonetheless the continent's political and economic bright spot. Virtually every other African nation that broke the yokes of colonialism are poorer and its citizens enjoy fewer human rights than when they were colonies of European nations. According to World Bank reports, between 1965 and 1987 every black African nation, with exceptions of Botswana, Mauritius, Cameroon and Senegal, experienced negative growths rates approaching three percent per year. The countries that escaped that plight are the very countries that eschewed socialism, military dictatorships and gross human rights abuses.

If South Africa goes the way of her neighbors to the north, it will be nothing less than a catastrophe for the continent. The reason is that South Africa has been a major provider of electrical power, agricultural products, transportation and other essentials for her neighbors, and, even during the days of apartheid, an asylum for black political refuges from the north.

We've seen ethnic wars and genocide in Burundi/Rwanda, Uganda, Nigeria, Liberia, Chad, Sudan and elsewhere. The same is not impossible in South Africa, not between whites and blacks, but between two major black groups, the Zulus and Xhosa.

Loads of Americans, from civil rights organizations and college students to politicians, were involved in the anti-apartheid movement. One wonders how much they care about what happens in South Africa after apartheid. I've always argued that getting rid of apartheid wasn't nearly as important as deciding what was going to replace it. There are things worse than apartheid. If one needs current evidence, just look at Yugoslavia.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4216/williams2t.th.jpg
Walter E. Williams

Born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Dr. Walter E. Williams holds a B.A. in economics from California State University, Los Angeles, and M.A. and Ph.D. degrees in economics from UCLA. He also holds a Doctor of Humane Letters from Virginia Union University and Grove City College, Doctor of Laws from Washington and Jefferson College and Doctor Honoris Causa en Ciencias Sociales from Universidad Francisco Marroquin, in Guatemala, where he is also Professor Honorario.

[wilhelm]

Flamming Python..... Africa certainly does not need the likes of you making excuses for such despicable behaviour. "It's apartheids fault ... it's colonialisms fault" .... etc etc ad nauseum. There are plenty in the ruling ANC crimnal clique making excuses already.

The slogans "Liberation before education" and "with our matchboxes and necklaces, we will liberate this country".

I remember that very well, and the attendant burning down of brand new schools paid for by the "oppressing" government.

Basically what has happened is that a criminal organisation, the ANC, embarked on a policy of violent destabilisation. Once they gained power, with the full backing of the predominantly liberal western media, they have embarked on a policy of wholesale corruption and theft. The braindead morons whom they encouraged to burn, murder, rape and steal have been left alone to carry on as they please. And all this so that people can place an "X" every 4 years, even though every election see's fewer voters. It makes one sick.

The West has a lot to answer for. The same sort of thugs were faited by thrilled media and governments in Europe in particular about 20 years ago now. That was Mugabe and his fellow criminals. Angola and Mocambique before him .... etc etc. South Africa had implemented a slow process of reform that would have ended Apartheid eventually. PW Botha had in fact started to concretely and effectively remove some of the sillier aspects during the 1980's. This was a threat to the ANC, who obviously wanted complete control of the whole Golden Goose before these measures started taking effect.

Anybody who has ever spent time in Africa knows the concept of democracy is a completely foreign concept to every single indigineous african culture, which are historically ruled by one all powerful chief or leader. The gulf between cultures is vast, particularly so between European and Black South African culture. This is not either a for or against argument, but is a simple concrete fact. Apartheid was recognition of this simple fact, which was then abused. This was acknowleged and started being rectified, albeit too late.

[Sidhardha]

I still wonder wich "genius" decided to put a new FIFA Worldcup at SA...

[wilhelm]

I still wonder wich "genius" decided to put a new FIFA Worldcup at SA...

The world cup will be fine. It will go off without a hitch.

[Rudolph]

The world cup will be fine. It will go off without a hitch.

We hosted the Rugby and Cricket World Cups, and over a 100 international events without a problem after 1994. The soccer will function well like a private sector event - don't worry about that. It's not really those braindead idiots in government managing all of this. Fifa, and local contractors do the thinking, planning and execution, and government will take credit.

[Dinges]

We hosted the Rugby and Cricket World Cups, and over a 100 international events without a problem after 1994. The soccer will function well like a private sector event - don't worry about that. It's not really those braindead idiots in government managing all of this. Fifa, and local contractors do the thinking, planning and execution, and government will take credit.

I'm just thinking. If something happens - who will carry the blame?

[Sidhardha]

The world cup will be fine. It will go off without a hitch.

Just hope something like this woudnt repeat, http://investigativezim.com/2010/01/11/angola-terror-attack-an-eye-opener-for-fifa-ioc/ . Though SA problem surely isnt terror, but already competing for dominance at weltmeistershaft gangs at war.

Then again, apart from few scandals like Austrian goalkeeper robed and killed, since 1994 it said there were about 100 big sports events in SA that went safely, so maybe the danger is exaggerated. But the fact is, most of the football teams (ok, speaking for Germany here) feel uneasy traveling there.

[Rudolph]

Just hope something like this woudnt repeat, http://investigativezim.com/2010/01/11/angola-terror-attack-an-eye-opener-for-fifa-ioc/ . Though SA problem surely isnt terror, but already competing for dominance at weltmeistershaft gangs at war.

Then again, apart from few scandals like Austrian goalkeeper robed and killed, since 1994 it said there were about 100 big sports events in SA that went safely, so maybe the danger is exaggerated. But the fact is, most of the football teams (ok, speaking for Germany here) feel uneasy traveling there.

Put it this way, SA is a big place. Twice the size of Texas. Some areas look like any capital found in Europe, others as if colonisation hasn't happened yet. Where these events will take place you'll see the first-world side of South Africa, the best infrastructure in the continent, best telecoms, police and military presence, and the highly regarded Special Task Force, capable of handling any terrorist/hostage situation - although SA hasn't had any casualties from that since the end of the 1994 election violence in 1996, if I'm not mistaken. Even the British consulate said that the criminal acts against British citizens reported during the recent rugby matches, etc., was no more than is being reported in other European countries. The World Cup will test these safe-borders, and tourists will travel further from the normal business districts because of the sheer size of the event, but larely you'll move through middle-class South Africa which earns a nice $20K+ per-capita and will not try to rob or attack you.

[SmoothieX12]

Anybody who has ever spent time in Africa knows the concept of democracy is a completely foreign concept to every single indigineous african culture, which are historically ruled by one all powerful chief or leader. The gulf between cultures is vast, particularly so between European and Black South African culture. This is not either a for or against argument, but is a simple concrete fact. Apartheid was recognition of this simple fact, which was then abused. This was acknowleged and started being rectified, albeit too late.

Implied here, I recon, is a Western Liberal Democracy with all of its institutions. Loya Jirga in Afghanistan is also...sort of "democracy". This is largely a civilizational issue, albeit late Samuel Huntington would argue that civilization is culture writ large (c). Blind application of the western cultural (and political) practices to the cultures other than western will always result in a disaster. The faster europeans will understand that Liberal Democracy is a treasure to be guarded, not exported, the better it will be for all.

[Rudolph]

x2........

[Flamming_Python]

Flamming Python..... Africa certainly does not need the likes of you making excuses for such despicable behaviour. "It's apartheids fault ... it's colonialisms fault" .... etc etc ad nauseum. There are plenty in the ruling ANC crimnal clique making excuses already.

The slogans "Liberation before education" and "with our matchboxes and necklaces, we will liberate this country".

I remember that very well, and the attendant burning down of brand new schools paid for by the "oppressing" government.

Basically what has happened is that a criminal organisation, the ANC, embarked on a policy of violent destabilisation. Once they gained power, with the full backing of the predominantly liberal western media, they have embarked on a policy of wholesale corruption and theft. The braindead morons whom they encouraged to burn, murder, rape and steal have been left alone to carry on as they please. And all this so that people can place an "X" every 4 years, even though every election see's fewer voters. It makes one sick.

The West has a lot to answer for. The same sort of thugs were faited by thrilled media and governments in Europe in particular about 20 years ago now. That was Mugabe and his fellow criminals. Angola and Mocambique before him .... etc etc. South Africa had implemented a slow process of reform that would have ended Apartheid eventually. PW Botha had in fact started to concretely and effectively remove some of the sillier aspects during the 1980's. This was a threat to the ANC, who obviously wanted complete control of the whole Golden Goose before these measures started taking effect.

Anybody who has ever spent time in Africa knows the concept of democracy is a completely foreign concept to every single indigineous african culture, which are historically ruled by one all powerful chief or leader. The gulf between cultures is vast, particularly so between European and Black South African culture. This is not either a for or against argument, but is a simple concrete fact. Apartheid was recognition of this simple fact, which was then abused. This was acknowleged and started being rectified, albeit too late.

I don't understand why culture or race or anything like this has to be brought into this. African societies are at much lower levels of development, but then so too were European societies once.

In the meantime, the fact that such injustices occur does not give justification for foreign powers to come and impose their own brutal regimes, exploiting and mass-murdering the population in the process. Or what, does the fact that countries are less developed mean that more developed countries have the right to colonise them? Why is it any surprise that Africa is full of dictators and despots? There is no need to make excuses for it; all it proves is that Africans are just as human as everyone else and screw over both their own people and others if they get the chance. Yet it still doesn't give any foreign lands the right to rule them instead (with the same despotic and brutal leaderships). Funny to hear talk about democracy here. Did Europe even attempt to bring democracy? No, back then it wasn't interested in such a concept itself in the slightest.

In many ways, the rule of the European colonialists was a lot more 'inhuman' than in any indigenous African culture. I don't see where in any such African culture, there is a belief that Europeans are somehow racially inferior to them.

South Africa specifically was not a colonising power although it was once ruled by one. What it was though was a regime built on racial segregation; and this was a concept straight from Europe and the colonialist bible. Perhaps if South Africa had gotten rid of such a policy as soon as it achieved independence, it might not have gone through all the BS that it did.

[SmoothieX12]

In many ways, the rule of the European colonialists was a lot more 'inhuman' than in any indigenous African culture. I don't see where in any such African culture, there is a belief that Europeans are somehow racially inferior to them.

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Yes and no--it's a multidimensional issue. It is very important, however, not to overdo self-castigation.

[wilhelm]

Implied here, I recon, is a Western Liberal Democracy with all of its institutions. Loya Jirga in Afghanistan is also...sort of "democracy". This is largely a civilizational issue, albeit late Samuel Huntington would argue that civilization is culture writ large (c). Blind application of the western cultural (and political) practices to the cultures other than western will always result in a disaster. The faster europeans will understand that Liberal Democracy is a treasure to be guarded, not exported, the better it will be for all.

I agree completely.

At Eurowussie, I didn't really want to reply, as your post contains every single classic cliche from the apologists bible. You also, as you have done in other threads, seem to assume a homogeneous peoples and apply your broad brush to them. A little deeper studying of history, as well as a spell of actually living in Africa, and not just a holiday, would serve you well.

Suffice to say that Africa was no paradise before the Evil White Man appeared.

[Dwelm]

Perhaps if South Africa had gotten rid of such a policy as soon as it achieved independence, it might not have gone through all the BS that it did.


It will sound racist but majority blacks weren't and now less but still most black people ain't ready to take power as inequality in education and the strong believes they still have on obsolete cultures (tokoloshe, evil spirits and that a witchdoctor can cure everything, even stop police from shooting you if you want to rob a bank)


we are moving away from the topic can we please not make this a race thread