Israeli heritage plan draws Palestinian protests

[Fade]

Israeli heritage plan draws Palestinian protests
22 Feb 2010 17:22:22 GMT
Source: *******

* Palestinians accuse Israel of inflaming conflict
* Netanyahu hails Jewish heritage project
* Hebron holy site at centre of controversy

By Ali Sawafta
HEBRON, West Bank, Feb 22 (*******) - Israel's plan to include the biblical Tomb of the Patriarchs in the West Bank in a project for rehabilitating Jewish and Zionist heritage sites touched off violent Palestinian protests on Monday.

Palestinian security forces deployed to break up hundreds of demonstrators throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers in the divided flashpoint city of Hebron, where the shrine is located. The Israeli troops fired tear gas at the protesters.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his cabinet on Sunday he intended to include the Tomb of the Patriarchs and several other Jewish religious shrines in territory Israel captured in a 1967 war in a $107 million plan to restore Jewish heritage sites.

"A person must know his homeland and its cultural and historical vistas. That is what we are going to instil in this generation and in the next generations ... for the glory of the Jewish people," he said.

Khaled Esseleh, the mayor of Hebron, said: "I'm hoping there won't be more clashes but this is a very sensitive religious issue, and Netanyahu just lit the fire."

Palestinians are calling the move an attempt to seize land and holy sites on Israeli-occupied land where they hope to build a future state.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the "unilateral decision to make Palestinian sites in Hebron and Bethlehem part of Israel shows there is no genuine partner for peace, but an occupying power intent on consolidating Palestinian lands".

While major powers worked to restart negotiations, "Netanyahu is actively working to sabotage the two-state solution", Erekat said in a statement.

BURIAL PLACE

The Tomb of the Patriarchs, which Muslims call al-Ibrahimi mosque, is sacred to Jews and Muslims as the traditional burial place of biblical figures Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca and Leah.

Hebron and the shrine itself have long been flashpoints of violence in the West Bank, territory Israel's government calls by its biblical names Judea and Samaria.

Arabs massacred 67 Jews in Hebron in 1929. Sixty-five years later, a Jewish settler shot and killed 29 Muslim worshippers in the Ibrahimi mosque before he was beaten to death at the scene.

Some 400 Jewish settlers, claiming a divine right to Hebron, now live in heavily guarded enclaves in the city, among some 150,000 Palestinians.

Article continued at http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE61L1G7.htm

[Octavariable]

Israeli "anything" draws Palestinian protests


/thread

seriously, is this news?
if we were to post every single piece of palestinian whining, this forum would jump to the top 10 on the most active forums.

[Fade]

Well, EXCUSE ME for posting something ******* thought was newsworthy. I'll be sure to PM you first next time and make sure I get your express approval on what is newsworthy or not.

[Octavariable]

No hard feelings man, It's just that I can count about a gazillion Israel Vs. PA threads on things that would never even pass the news editor in any other conflict , and honestly, it's getting quite tiresome.
And please don't PM me, because then I'll think someone likes me, until I'll see the message.

[G3SG1]

'' Arabs massacred while a Jewish settler shot and killed''. Doesn't seem quite balanced.

[stri8ed]

Watch this video for a good explanation of the situation:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/136143

[Fade]

No hard feelings man, It's just that I can count about a gazillion Israel Vs. PA threads on things that would never even pass the news editor in any other conflict , and honestly, it's getting quite tiresome.
No worries. It can be difficult for people not from there (like myself), to understand what is really going on. Hopefully the conversations in these threads offer some insight and context to such a complex issue in a complex part of the world. This might not seem like anything special to those who already live there of course. Cheers.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

The countdown continues... tic tac tic tac


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151219.html

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and his Spanish counterpart Miguel Moratinos are promoting an initiative by which the European Union would recognize a Palestinian state in 18 months, even before negotiations for a permanent settlement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority are concluded.

According to senior European diplomats and senior Israeli officials, Israel has relayed its opposition to the initiative - warning that it would undermine any chance of a successful peace process.

A senior European diplomat noted that Israel was informed about the initiative several weeks ago, a fact confirmed by a senior Israeli official. The Israeli official said the initiative is being spearheaded by Kouchner who recruited the support of the Spanish foreign minister, whose country also currently holds the rotating European Union presidency.

Israeli sources say the two foreign ministers are preparing an article they intend to publish together in some of the main European dailies. The main message of the article is that the European Union should recognize a Palestinian state before the completion of negotiations, under the assumption that such a declaration will be made by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

The initiative is based on a plan by Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to establish a Palestinian state in two years, which is the time he estimates is needed for the development of state institutions, economic reforms and a completion of the necessary training of Palestinian security forces that would bring law and order to the West Bank.

The Fayyad plan was developed more than six months ago and the Franco-Spanish initiative is meant to bolster it, promising recognition by the European block.

Israel has responded to Kouchner and Moratinos by expressing clear opposition to the initiative, noting it was contrary to the principles of the peace process. "An imposed solution will not achieve the goals," Israel stressed in its message.

"If the European Union will determine the results of the negotiations in advance and promises the Palestinians recognition of a state, they will have no motivation to resume negotiations," the Israeli message states.

"The issue before us at the moment is the building of a reality," Kouchner told the Journal du Dimanche in an interview published yesterday. "France is training Palestinian police, businesses are being created in the West Bank... It follows that one can envision the proclamation soon of a Palestinian state, and its immediate recognition by the international community, even before negotiating its borders."

"If by mid-2011, the political process has not ended the [Israeli] occupation, I would bet that the developed state of Palestinian infrastructure and institutions will be such that the pressure will force Israel to give up its occupation," he added.

[dracon49]

Kouchhner harms the interests of France and the EU by his intiative.

[GiladS]

The countdown continues... tic tac tic tac


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151219.html

Yawn...

The dogs bark and the cravan moves on.

[GB_FXST]

The countdown continues... tic tac tic tac


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151219.html

I applaud the desire to build state infrastructure. A much better plan than building a military like Hamas.

However, nothing will come of a unilateral Palestinian declaration of independence because of UNSC 242. UNSC 242 requires a negotiated settlement, and I doubt that the UNSC will revoke 242.

[Ordie]

This is why Israel should have Knessit members representing geographic districts rather than political parties.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

I applaud the desire to build state infrastructure. A much better plan than building a military like Hamas.

However, nothing will come of a unilateral Palestinian declaration of independence because of UNSC 242. UNSC 242 requires a negotiated settlement, and I doubt that the UNSC will revoke 242.

I defend (at heart) the right of auto-defense of Israel (not shed a tear for Arab terrorists or tyrants), but Israel is running out of time, beyond the certainties of the past. Israel will face before two years at the greatest threat to its existence, and every day that passes its output is reduced to a single path. And to follow that path as dramatic, need all the support and solidarity that in the world could muster.

Israel must reach an agreement with the Palestinians. It's a matter of survival.

[Octavariable]

This is why

What is?
And what does Israel's parliament composition has to do with this thread, besides pushing your agenda?

[dracon49]

I defend (at heart) the right of auto-defense of Israel (not shed a tear for Arab terrorists or tyrants), but Israel is running out of time, beyond the certainties of the past. Israel will face before two years at the greatest threat to its existence, and every day that passes its output is reduced to a single path. And to follow that path as dramatic, need all the support and solidarity that in the world could muster.

Israel must reach an agreement with the Palestinians. It's a matter of survival.
Why we must reach an agreement? Because the Demography issue? From the Jordan to the sea there are 67% Jews and 37% arabs.

[GB_FXST]

I defend (at heart) the right of auto-defense of Israel (not shed a tear for Arab terrorists or tyrants), but Israel is running out of time, beyond the certainties of the past. Israel will face before two years at the greatest threat to its existence, and every day that passes its output is reduced to a single path. And to follow that path as dramatic, need all the support and solidarity that in the world could muster.

Israel must reach an agreement with the Palestinians. It's a matter of survival.

Why do you think so?

The vast majority of Israelis will welcome genuine peace with the Palestinians. However, I believe a peaceful resolution is out of reach as long as the radicals, like Hamas and Iran, continue to meddle.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

Why we must reach an agreement? Because the Demography issue? From the Jordan to the sea there are 67% Jews and 37% arabs.

Because the Turks are no longer allies.
Because popular sympathy in Europe are increasingly pro-Palestinian
Because Russia and China have already chosen sides.
Because soon the U.S. will wonder if is preferable friendship of Israel or the ruthless economic interest of the sheikh of the petrodollars.

Israel needs to get popular in the world again. And that only get to be magnanimous.

[dracon49]

Because the Turks are no longer allies.
Because popular sympathy in Europe are increasingly pro-Palestinian
Because Russia and China have already chosen sides.
Because soon the U.S. will wonder if is preferable friendship of Israel or the ruthless economic interest of the sheikh of the petrodollars.

Israel needs to get popular in the world again. And that only get to be magnanimous.
You basically saying that we must commit a suicide to make the world happier.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

Why do you think so?

The vast majority of Israelis will welcome genuine peace with the Palestinians. However, I believe a peaceful resolution is out of reach as long as the radicals, like Hamas and Iran, continue to meddle.

The vast majority of Israelis and the vast majority of Palestinians will welcome genuine peace.

Why not reach an agreement between the two majorities and isolate violent minorities on both sides?

[Asdrubal el Bello]

You basically saying that we must commit a suicide to make the world happier.

Why is suicide to reach agreement with the neighbor, even rival who was in the past?

Is it lack of confidence? I think not.

What if Israel entered the NATO and EU?

[ASHISH67]

You basically saying that we must commit a suicide to make the world happier.

no what he is trying to say growing muslim population all over the world uk,france,germany,sweden,norway and even russia there is is good chance that these countries will be muslim majority within 50-60 years.Then imagine all the economic and military might of europe will be against israel.I see a very grim future for both israel and india.:-(:-(:-(:-((a little off topic)

[GB_FXST]

The vast majority of Israelis and the vast majority of Palestinians will welcome genuine peace.

Why not reach an agreement between the two majorities and isolate violent minorities on both sides?

That is a good idea, and I agree.

The devil is in the details. How does one isolate the violent radicals? The Oslo model did not work. Unilateral disengagement did not work. Democratic elections did not work.

Unfortunately, the status qou may just have to continue for some time.

[Ordie]

What is?
And what does Israel's parliament composition has to do with this thread, besides pushing your agenda?

In Israel, its the minority party of a governing coalition that will always whine and dictates policy.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

no what he is trying to say growing muslim popultion all over the world uk,france,germany,sweden,norway and even russia there is is good chance that these countries will be muslim majority within 50-60 years.Then imagine all the economic and military might of europe will be against israel.I see a very grim future for both israel and india.:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-( (a little off topic)

Noooo.

Israel must reach an agreement because it must have international support for action, let us call things by their name, against the threat from Iran.

And this action must be massive and dramatic, and will only be acceptable for the world if Israel can offer a real and tangible peace in their territory.

But if the best ally against Hamas would be a Palestinian state!

[dracon49]

no what he is trying to say growing muslim population all over the world uk,france,germany,sweden,norway and even russia there is is good chance that these countries will be muslim majority within 50-60 years.Then imagine all the economic and military might of europe will be against israel.I see a very grim future for both israel and india.:-(:-(:-(:-((a little off topic)
Maximum will have armageddon:)

[dracon49]

In Israel, its the minority party of a governing coalition that will always whine and dictates policy.
You right we need to change the system and also make the % of votes to enter the knesset Higher

[dracon49]

Noooo.

Israel must reach an agreement because it must have international support for action, let us call things by their name, against the threat from Iran.

And this action must be massive and dramatic, and will only be acceptable for the world if Israel can offer a real and tangible peace in their territory.

But if the best ally against Hamas would be a Palestinian state!
Sir, i think you came from the moon yesterday and you don't really know what is going in the ME.

[Ordie]

What if Israel entered the NATO and EU?

Only if the EU allow Turkish membership.

Israel is in Asia not Europe.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

That is a good idea, and I agree.

The devil is in the details. How does one isolate the violent radicals? The Oslo model did not work. Unilateral disengagement did not work. Democratic elections did not work.

Unfortunately, the status qou may just have to continue for some time.

The priority is the deal idea.

1967 borders.
Recognition by King Abdullah of Israel (2002)
Israeli settlers retain the right to continue in their settlements (under Palestinian sovereignty and Arabic guarantee )
Palestinian refugees return to Palestine.
EU and Arab states bear the reconstruction of Palestine.
Israel's entry into the EU.
Israel's entry into NATO (European-American military guarantee)
Jerusalem the capital of two states.

International prosecution of terrorism (including terrorist states).

[Zeev]

Kouchhner harms the interests of France and the EU by his intiative.

Kuchner is a scumbag with the mouth full of dirt, he proved it in Balkans, and continues on the same way.

The shame of France foreign affairs.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

Sir, i think you came from the moon yesterday and you don't really know what is going in the ME.

From inside the pot does not smell food

Do not know what I hear in my area on Israel (and that has caused me more of an annoyance)

[dracon49]

From inside the pot does not smell food

Do not know what I hear in my area on Israel (and that has caused me more of an annoyance)
What? Btw, do you think that the settlements are an obstacle for peace?

[Asdrubal el Bello]

Kuchner is a scumbag with the mouth full of dirt, he proved it in Balkans, and continues on the same way.

The shame of France foreign affairs.

I agree, and more in terms Moratinos, but both reflect what think a large majority of the population of France and Spain.

And since Spanish and European sorry to say so.

[bbsh]

Peace under the current situation is going to be impossible..

Palestinians are too divided and until they can all unite under 1 banner or atleast form a political block that truely has majority representation, negotations are going to go nowhere..

They want to unilateraly declare independance? Good luck to them.. They dont have any of the needed prerequisits to even appear externally as a functioning state..

[dracon49]

Peace under the current situation is going to be impossible..

Palestinians are too divided and until they can all unite under 1 banner or atleast form a political block that truely has majority representation, negotations are going to go nowhere..

They want to unilateraly declare independance? Good luck to them.. They dont have any of the needed prerequisits to even appear externally as a functioning state..
Do you think that will forget about the refugges? Will never have an agreement.

[Zeev]

I agree, and more in terms Moratinos, but both reflect what think a large majority of the population of France and Spain.

And since Spanish and European sorry to say so.

Indeed. French and Spanish, as the rest of most western european ppl are as brainwashed about Israel as they were about Serbs in the 90's.

Thanks g.od, Israel have an heavier weight on the political and military aspects than Serbs in the 90's.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

What? Btw, do you think that the settlements are an obstacle for peace?

Please, turn around the situation and imagine palestinians settlers in Israel and the palestinian authorities demanding control of the territories they occupy.

Would be an obstacle to peace?

[dracon49]

Please, turn around the situation and imagine palestinians settlers in Israel and the palestinian authorities demanding control of the territories they occupy.

Would be an obstacle to peace?
I will ask you a very simple question:why we didn't have peace before 1967?

[Ordie]

Peace under the current situation is going to be impossible...

There's relative peace today.
Under unilateral and contained environment.

[Imp]

'' Arabs massacred while a Jewish settler shot and killed''. Doesn't seem quite balanced.

Yeah, you're right. One was the actions of a large number of people, aided and abetted by their community, the other was a lone nutcase. You tell me which reflects more poorly upon their respective community.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

I will ask you a very simple question:why we didn't have peace before 1967?

Wars begin and end.

A just and permanent peace is the most precious good.

Israel returns the conquered territories and the Arabs accepts Israel's neighborhood. That's something Israel could not dream in 1967. Perhaps not all the Arab states accept it, but it will do the most important: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Iraq..

[bbsh]

There's relative peace today.
Under unilateral and contained environment.

Peace might be over estimating present situation.. But whatever you want to call it, it is not sustainable.

[bbsh]

Wars begin and end.

There was an ideology behind those wars, one that is still present today.



Perhaps not all the Arab states accept it, but it will do the most important: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Iraq..

Palestinians political leadership itself isnt ready to accept it, so what the hell does moroccco or tunisia have to do with anything?

[dracon49]

Wars begin and end.

A just and permanent peace is the most precious good.

Israel returns the conquered territories and the Arabs accepts Israel's neighborhood. That's something Israel could not dream in 1967. Perhaps not all the Arab states accept it, but it will do the most important: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Iraq..
Before 1967 we didn't have any settlement and we didn't have any peace. How do you explain that?

[Moledet]

Wars begin and end.

A just and permanent peace is the most precious good.

Israel returns the conquered territories and the Arabs accepts Israel's neighborhood. That's something Israel could not dream in 1967. Perhaps not all the Arab states accept it, but it will do the most important: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Iraq..
It's easier said than done. What you call "Israel returns..." in financial terms mean tens of billions of dollars to pay on spot. Not to mention that it will never pass a national referendum.

[HellToupee]

Before 1967 we didn't have any settlement and we didn't have any peace. How do you explain that?


And the Palestinian areas in 1967 were under control of Jordan and Egypt in 1967, who you now happen have peace with..

[bbsh]

It's easier said than done. What you call "Israel returns..." in financial terms mean tens of billions of dollars to pay on spot. Not to mention that it will never pass a national referendum.

To make things fair, i honestly think that there has to be a just solution to the settlements.. If Israel isnt willing or capable of dismantling them then land swap is an alternative.. Im actually a fan of lieberman's proposition on this behalf..

Eitherway, i think its unrealistic to believe that the palestinians will just suck it up and lay down their claims to those lands without getting anything in return..

[dracon49]

Helltoupee ,So fine...why should we care on something that wasn't belong to us and when we took it(Judea and Samaria) we didn't take it from any Palestinian?

[dracon49]

To make things fair, i honestly think that there has to be a just solution to the settlements.. If Israel isnt willing or capable of dismantling them then land swap is an alternative.. Im actually a fan of lieberman's proposition on this behalf..

Eitherway, i think its unrealistic to believe that the palestinians will just suck it up and lay down their claims to those lands without getting anything in return..
Jordan should be the Palestinian state.

[bbsh]

Jordan should be the Palestinian state.

Jordanians will never agree to it, neither will the arab league or the palestinians for that matter.. It simply wont happen.

[Ordie]

Peace might be over estimating present situation.. But whatever you want to call it, it is not sustainable.

It was never sustainable since 1948.

[dracon49]

Jordanians will never agree to it, neither will the arab league or the palestinians for that matter.. It simply wont happen.
There was never a Palestinian nation or a Palestinian state...so why should they get one?

[Ordie]

Jordan should be the Palestinian state.

It is already a majority Palestinian State governed by an exiled Hejaz (modern day Saudi Arabia region) monarchy.

[bbsh]

It was never sustainable since 1948.

Define 'it' because im getting the feeling we are talking of two different things.

I meant to say the current 'peace' is not sustainable, as in we are only in a limited time of quiet before **** hits the fan and another intifada, regional war or operation cast lead surfaces..

[Ordie]

There was never a Palestinian nation or a Palestinian state...so why should they get one?

Perhaps, the same reason why the Jews need a state of thier own.

[Asdrubal el Bello]

It's easier said than done. What you call "Israel returns..." in financial terms mean tens of billions of dollars to pay on spot. Not to mention that it will never pass a national referendum.

Do you really believe that peace will be a matter of money?

[bbsh]

There was never a Palestinian nation or a Palestinian state...so why should they get one?

So you think that Israel should absorb all the arabs in the west bank/gaza?

[dracon49]

It is already a majority Palestinian State governed by an exiled Hejaz (modern day Saudi Arabia region) monarchy.
More then 70% of the Jordanians are Palestinians so they should take responsibility for their brothers....

[dracon49]

So you think that Israel should absorb all the arabs in the west bank/gaza?
Maybe we need to give the arabs in the West Bank a blue card like the arabs in Jerusalem get and about Gaza-we disconnected from it, so we don't have any responsibility for it.

[bbsh]

Maybe we need to give the arabs in the West Bank a blue card like the arabs in Jerusalem get

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt that citizenship?

[Moledet]

Do you really believe that peace will be a matter of money?
Do you know of any other way to pay compensations? The Gaza pullout cost about 2.4$ billions and there were only 9000 residents there with very few businesses. Imagine what's it like with 250,000 residents. Nevermind that Israel doesn't have enough soldiers or police officers to remove that many people forcibly.

[GB_FXST]

Noooo.

Israel must reach an agreement because it must have international support for action, let us call things by their name, against the threat from Iran.

And this action must be massive and dramatic, and will only be acceptable for the world if Israel can offer a real and tangible peace in their territory.

But if the best ally against Hamas would be a Palestinian state!

The world will villify Israel if it conducts a pre-emptive strike against Iran regardless of the status of Palestinian peace. The Osirak raid teaches this lesson.

But, turn your supposition on its head. Could it be that Hamas is energized by Iran and a defanged Iran would also translate into a defanged Hamas? If so, maybe the answer is to first defang Iran and then proceed with peacemaking.



The priority is the deal idea.

1967 borders.
Recognition by King Abdullah of Israel (2002)
Israeli settlers retain the right to continue in their settlements (under Palestinian sovereignty and Arabic guarantee )
Palestinian refugees return to Palestine.
EU and Arab states bear the reconstruction of Palestine.
Israel's entry into the EU.
Israel's entry into NATO (European-American military guarantee)
Jerusalem the capital of two states.

International prosecution of terrorism (including terrorist states).

Both of the bolded sentences are non-starters.

Israel cannot allow a Palestinian right of return as it is national suicide.

Israel cannot subcontract its defense to other countries who may prove to be fickle.



It is already a majority Palestinian State governed by an exiled Hejaz (modern day Saudi Arabia region) monarchy.

I'll be the second to ask for a clarification of this post.

[Ordie]

Define 'it' because im getting the feeling we are talking of two different things.

I meant to say the current 'peace' is not sustainable, as in we are only in a limited time of quiet before **** hits the fan and another intifada, regional war or operation cast lead surfaces..

Peace was never sustainable since 1948.

However, Arab countries no longer seek its legitimacy by attacking Israel anymore. They have bigger issues and pressures to deal with.
Besides, globalization is creeping into authoritarian Arab societies including Syria where the motivation is making money.

[dracon49]

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt that citizenship?
They can vote for Jerusalem's municipal elections ,but they can't vote for the Knesset..

[Ordie]

More then 70% of the Jordanians are Palestinians so they should take responsibility for their brothers....

They did before and after 1967.

But after King Hussien renounced claims on the West Bank and recognized the State of Israel, the Palestinians in the occupied territories became Israel's problem.

[dracon49]

I call it liberated territories...Jabotinsky said that also Jordan is part of Israel...

[Zeev]

I call it liberated territories...Jabotinsky said that also Jordan is part of Israel...

With all the respect I have for Jabotinsky, such way of mind drives nowhere in todays reality.

[dracon49]

With all the respect I have for Jabotinsky, such way of mind drives nowhere in todays reality.
You think that an arab state from the West of Jordan needs to be established?

[bbsh]

They can vote for Jerusalem's municipal elections ,but they can't vote for the Knesset..

You cant do that.. The day Israel officially annexes the west bank, it has to offer its residence citizenship and full rights otherwise it voids being a democratic state and might actually fall under being apartheid based.

Either treat them as Israeli-arabs in every other Israeli city, or understand that the west bank are in fact disputed territories

[dracon49]

You cant do that.. The day Israel officially annexes the west bank, it has to offer its residence citizenship and full rights otherwise it voids being a democratic state and might actually fall under being apartheid based.

Either treat them as Israeli-arabs in every other Israeli city, or understand that the west bank are in fact disputed territories
We annexed East Jerusalem in 67 and they got rights...whats the problem that the arabs in the West Bank will get the same rights like the arabs in Jerusalem?

[bbsh]

We annexed East Jerusalem in 67 and they got rights...whats the problem that the arabs in the West Bank will get the same rights like the arabs in Jerusalem?

After Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem, residence were in fact offered citizenship.. The same can be said for the Golan, when it was annexed, its citizens were offered citizenship

You'd have to do the same for all residence of the west bank.

[dracon49]

After Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem, residence were in fact offered citizenship.. You'd have to do the same for all residence of the west bank.
But they can't vote for the Knesset like i said. It's not Democratic?

[bbsh]

But they can't vote for the Knesset like i said. It's not Democratic?

If they become citizens, they can in fact vote in the Knesset..

I think you are confusing permanent residence status with citizenship.

[dracon49]

If they become citizens, they can in fact vote in the Knesset..

I think you are confusing permanent residence status with citizenship.
Im talking on the arabs that live in East Jerusalem. They can't vote for the Knesset and we annexed East Jerusalem. We should do the same with the West Bank and give them the same rights like the arabs in East Jeruslam have(to vote for the Mayor ,but not for the Knesset).

[bbsh]

Im talking on the arabs that live in East Jerusalem. They can't vote for the Knesset and we annexed East Jerusalem. We should do the same with the West Bank.

Again, when east jerusalem was annexed, its residence were offered citizenship including the right to vote in the knesset.

You are confusing citizenship with permanent residence status.

[Ordie]

I call it liberated territories...Jabotinsky said that also Jordan is part of Israel...

Come and get it.

If Israel has a hard time with the West Bank after 42 years, I can't imagine what problems occupying Jordan would bring.

[dracon49]

Again, when east jerusalem was annexed, its residence were offered citizenship including the right to vote in the knesset.

You are confusing citizenship with permanent residence status.
As far as i know they don't vote for the Knesset..am i wrong?

[dracon49]

Come and get it.

If Israel has a hard time with the West Bank after 42 years, I can't imagine what problems occupying Jordan would bring.
We could bring Chinese workers to do the security missions:)

[Zeev]

We annexed East Jerusalem in 67 and they got rights...whats the problem that the arabs in the West Bank will get the same rights like the arabs in Jerusalem?

Demographic threat.

Palestinians have an higher natality rate than israelis, no secret. The situation would be quickly unbearable, Israel have already enough problems with the million of "israeli arabs" that are nothing less than a fifth column.

"Occupy" them is not a solution, Integrate them in the state of Israel with the same rights as Jews would be suicide (and anyway, they would refuse it), and I won't even mention the third possibility.

So if you ask my opinion, yes, one day or another we will be forced to give them a state from the west of Jordan, we're not forced to give them all and return to the green line indeed, but an important part. Do you see other perspectives for future?

[dracon49]

An agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is not possible because even the "moderates"(Abu Mazen and his gango)will not give up on the "right of return" and like i said we can annex the West Bank and allow them to vote only in their municipality elections and then will not have to be afraid that will have an arab Prime Minister....and the Demographic threat is an illusion because right now 67% of the ppl from The West of Jordan are Jews(without including the arabs in Gaza that we don't have anything with them because we don't control them).

[Zeev]

A mutual agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is not possible because even the "moderates"(Abu Mazen and his gang that have to kiss our ass that Hamas doesn't take them out from the West Bank also)will not give up on the "right of return" and like i said we can annex the West Bank and allow them to vote only in their municipality elections and then will not have to be afraid that will have an arab Prime Minister....

Again it would be considered by the rest of the world as a form of "Apartheid", and it could bring high diplomatical risks, especially with the US first. I cannot imagine the US diplomacy accept such israeli decision.

[Ordie]

Israel have already enough problems with the million of "israeli arabs" that are nothing less than a fifth column.

Including those who served with honor in the IDF?

[dracon49]

Again it would be considered by the rest of the world as a form of "Apartheid", and it could bring high diplomatical risks, especially with the US first. I cannot imagine the US diplomacy accept such israeli decision.
They accpeted the attack on Iraq in 1981? In the past we had leaders that worked according to Israel interests and weren't puppets of the US and i fully agree with you-that there is no leader today that would annex the West Bank(maybe only ppl from the National Union and the Jewish Home ,but they will never be the biggest party).

[Hollis]

Come and get it.

If Israel has a hard time with the West Bank after 42 years, I can't imagine what problems occupying Jordan would bring.


My understanding your in the SF Bay area, SF Bay area has 6,960,079 people in the 2008 census. Israel has 7,400,000 people in the 2009 census. So there is not enough excitement where you live? I find it amazing the a country with a population of 7.4 million people has garnered so much of the world attention. Imagine if the SF Bay area was a country, will all that goes with it? Asymmetrical media attention?

[HellToupee]

Im talking on the arabs that live in East Jerusalem. They can't vote for the Knesset and we annexed East Jerusalem. We should do the same with the West Bank and give them the same rights like the arabs in East Jeruslam have(to vote for the Mayor ,but not for the Knesset).

So you want an aparthied type arrangement?

[dracon49]

So you want an aparthied type arrangement?
I don't think it's an aparthied...the status of those arabs in East Jerusalem is considerd as an aparthied? I don't think our Supreme Court would accept an aparthied......

[HellToupee]

That "solution" would be.

[dracon49]

That "solution" would be.
Why? Im saying that if will annex the West Bank we need to give the ppl there what we gave to the ppl in East Jerusalem(everything ,but only not to vote for the Knesset)

[ting]

no what he is trying to say growing muslim population all over the world uk,france,germany,sweden,norway and even russia there is is good chance that these countries will be muslim majority within 50-60 years.Then imagine all the economic and military might of europe will be against israel.I see a very grim future for both israel and india.:-(:-(:-(:-((a little off topic)roflrofl

Anyway I will go and practice arabic with my camel...:roll:

[HellToupee]

Why? Im saying that if will annex the West Bank we need to give the ppl there what we gave to the ppl in East Jerusalem(everything ,but only not to vote for the Knesset)

And that is apartheid, by having unequal treatment of citizens. Removing voting removes representation and thus their power, would leave them a subclass.

[Ordie]

My understanding your in the SF Bay area, SF Bay area has 6,960,079 people in the 2008 census. Israel has 7,400,000 people in the 2009 census. So there is not enough excitement where you live? I find it amazing the a country with a population of 7.4 million people has garnered so much of the world attention. Imagine if the SF Bay area was a country, will all that goes with it? Asymmetrical media attention?

Interesting alology.

I would assume that Israel is slightly larger than the 9 Bay Area counties.
The Gaza Strip would be the 101 corridor between San Francisco and its airport.

The PA would be walled sections and enclaves of Silicon Valley sub-divided by expressways and checkpoints.

What would normally take a 50 minute drive between San Jose and San Francisco would be an all day affair on the El Camino through checkpoints. Unless if you're an Israeli Settler, where you have access to I-280.

[dracon49]

And that is apartheid, by having unequal treatment of citizens. Removing voting removes representation and thus their power, would leave them a subclass.
If the Palestinians will declare themself as a unilietral state then will have to response by annexing the West Bank.

[Ordie]

That "solution" would be.

For Israel to adopt a Constitution first.

[dracon49]

It will be good if will have Constitution-the Supreme Court will not cancel laws like they do right now...

[Hollis]

Interesting alology.

I would assume that Israel is slightly larger than the 9 Bay Area counties.
The Gaza Strip would be the 101 corridor between San Francisco and its airport.

The PA would be walled sections and enclaves of Silicon Valley sub-divided by expressways and checkpoints.

What would normally take a 50 minute drive between San Jose and San Francisco would be an all day affair on the El Camino through checkpoints. Unless if you're an Israeli Settler, where you have access to I-280.


SF Bay area is 7000 sq mi while Israel is 8000 sq mi. I travel through the area every now and then, 80, 680, 280, 14 and route 1. Look at not just the problems but the positives. A whole country. I am in Oregon and we are smaller compared to Israel and our neighbors are not trying to destroy us either.

I don't think the in my first example, Palestine was included.

Also you do have the whole world trying to micromanage your affairs.


Biggest problem I see in the two state solution is the internal problem in the PA, no real law and order or accountability. I think even the easiest problems are made to be very complex because of outside influence and that a reasonable solution goes contrary to the terrorist's agenda. If the PA had control of their internal affairs then negotiations can be done in good faith and parties held accountable. There are just too many rules in Palestine. Even this issue could be resolved in a peaceful non-confrontational manner. Similar to when Jerusalem was liberated, the religious centers where opened to all people (such a Temple mound). Same can/could be done here. Allowing all people access to those "holy" sites.

[dracon49]

They don't control Gaza....it's a big problem.

[JordanN]

roflrofl

Anyway I will go and practice arabic with my camel...:roll:
Why laugh? Remember Lebanon? Once a Christian majority now turned Muslim run.

[Ssandro]

Pull out of the West Bank completely, seal the border, and build a good wall. Who cares about religious heritage sites? Is that a joke? The country has slightly more important issues to deal with than some archaeology . Building settlements in the West Bank was a completely idiotic strategy. After 1967, Israel should have built a wall along the greenline, banned Jews from moving beyond it, and encouraged as many existing Arab Israelis to move there as possible. They should also have sacrificed some Israeli territory to the new Palestinian State, where the population is both mainly Arab and contiguous with the border, including parts of East Jerusalem. The demographic issues are far more important (for building a successful and safe country) than some land (Israel's got more than enough land for its population size).

[dracon49]

The demographic issue is an illusion because 67% of the ppl west from the Jordan are Jews ,so plz, say the facts and don't say bull**** stuff like the British media says often...

[kahn267]

Remove the political bull**** aspect from it.

The way to solve this issue is to purely provide a benefit to Palestinians and to Israelis.

One way of doing this is charging entry to such a site for tourists, where the proceeds go to Palestinian infrastructure.
It would therefore remove the security threat of such a site, where terrorists would only be cutting their own noses by disrupting visitors by performing an attack. Then again, my pessimism with such a project purely falls on the moral hazard involving the UN where terrorists go and attack anyway as they knwo the UN will always pay the bill for their infrastructure

[kahn267]

Pull out of the West Bank completely, seal the border, and build a good wall. Who cares about religious heritage sites? Is that a joke? The country has slightly more important issues to deal with than some archaeology . Building settlements in the West Bank was a completely idiotic strategy. After 1967, Israel should have built a wall along the greenline, banned Jews from moving beyond it, and encouraged as many existing Arab Israelis to move there as possible. They should also have sacrificed some Israeli territory to the new Palestinian State, where the population is both mainly Arab and contiguous with the border, including parts of East Jerusalem. The demographic issues are far more important (for building a successful and safe country) than some land (Israel's got more than enough land for its population size).


If only it were that easy
And then what about all the weapons etc that come into the West Bank? IMHO thats a bubble gum fix that will just lead to another conflict further down the line... oh and then there will be the same little Gaza bull**** about them whinging about being sealed off etc
:roll:

[Ordie]

Why laugh? Remember Lebanon? Once a Christian majority now turned Muslim run.

Not according to the latest Lebanese census.

[Octavariable]

Not according to the latest Lebanese census.

According to 2007 census
http://i47.tinypic.com/n49ov9.png

Yes, any other "Ordiefacts" you want me to bust? go ahead, make my day.

[Octavariable]

Interesting alology.

I would assume that Israel is slightly larger than the 9 Bay Area counties.
The Gaza Strip would be the 101 corridor between San Francisco and its airport.

The PA would be walled sections and enclaves of Silicon Valley sub-divided by expressways and checkpoints.

What would normally take a 50 minute drive between San Jose and San Francisco would be an all day affair on the El Camino through checkpoints. Unless if you're an Israeli Settler, where you have access to I-280.

Only of a foreign funded terrorist group in the 101 corridor will be firing rockets and carrying out suicide bombs against the civilians of the bay area. And the silicon valley will comprise of Mexicans and Canadians trying to form a state whilst fighting between themselves for power, corruption, and the odd terrorist act against other Californians.

[ting]

Why laugh? Remember Lebanon? Once a Christian majority now turned Muslim run.

IIRC the Muslim population in Europe is maximum 5%. 5% aren't going to become 50% in 50 years. Also the majority of Muslims coming to Europe adapt to their new countries. This means they become more liberal. Most Muslims who come to Europe are more liberal in the first place.

Israel on the other hand has about 20% Muslims. Who do you think is more likely to have a majority of Muslims in 50 years? The EU or Israel?

[Ordie]

According to 2007 census
http://i47.tinypic.com/n49ov9.png

Yes, any other "Ordiefacts" you want me to bust? go ahead, make my day.

Cite your source.

The last Lebanese census was done in 1932

[Ssandro]

If only it were that easy
And then what about all the weapons etc that come into the West Bank? IMHO thats a bubble gum fix that will just lead to another conflict further down the line... oh and then there will be the same little Gaza bull**** about them whinging about being sealed off etc
:roll:

On the downside, weapons would come into the West Bank, which could lead to future conflicts (with an independent and militarised Palestinian state).

On the positive side, it's a huge diplomatic improvement (no longer to be "occupiers"), and for there to be an independent Palestinian state. Also, once Palestinians (or at least the West Bank) become another official Arab state, there is someone who can be held accountable on their side (peace can be made as it was with Jordan and Egypt, even if it takes some time).

The demographic future of Israel as religiously and culturally homogeneous would be increased, especially if the land areas populated mainly with Israeli Arabs (like E.Jerusalem) are given to the Palestinian state, and then sealed behind a wall. The risk of terrorist infiltration is massively reduced. It's far preferable to have to deal with a hostile state or rockets from next door (like Gaza now), than hostile people inside your state.

[Ssandro]

IIRC the Muslim population in Europe is maximum 5%. 5% aren't going to become 50% in 50 years. Also the majority of Muslims coming to Europe adapt to their new countries. This means they become more liberal. Most Muslims who come to Europe are more liberal in the first place.

Israel on the other hand has about 20% Muslims. Who do you think is more likely to have a majority of Muslims in 50 years? The EU or Israel?
Yes, excluding the occupied terroritories, Israel has 20%+ Muslims (plus 1.5% Christian Arabs who identify themselves as Palestinian), which is already far too many to be sustainable. Some of the previous Israeli governments were incredibly idiotic. They should never have annexed any Arab villages in 1948, let alone the West Bank in 67 (they should have handed it back to Jordon immediately in 1967). They didn't seem to understand that a culturally homogeneous, educated population is far more important than any land, let alone "religious heritage" sites. I understand that people like A. Sharon thought that building settlements would increase Israel's security in a conventional land war. In reality, demographically, diplomatically, it's had the exact opposite effect. Even as they're building a security fence now, they should leave any arab areas of Israel contiguous with the West Bank (especially E. Jerusalem) on the Western side of the fence.

Switzerland has 4% Muslims (mainly from the Balkans). Britain only has 3% Muslims. On average, these populations are far more liberal than the ones you'll find in the middle east.

[dracon49]

Yes, excluding the occupied terroritories, Israel has 20%+ Muslims (plus 1.5% Christian Arabs who identify themselves as Palestinian), which is already far too many to be sustainable. Some of the previous Israeli governments were incredibly idiotic. They should never have annexed any Arab villages in 1948, let alone the West Bank in 67 (they should have handed it back to Jordon immediately in 1967). They didn't seem to understand that a culturally homogeneous, educated population is far more important than any land, let alone "religious heritage" sites. I understand that people like A. Sharon thought that building settlements would increase Israel's security in a conventional land war. In reality, demographically, diplomatically, it's had the exact opposite effect. Even as they're building a security fence now, they should leave any arab areas of Israel contiguous with the West Bank (especially E. Jerusalem) on the Western side of the fence.

Switzerland has 4% Muslims (mainly from the Balkans). Britain only has 3% Muslims. On average, these populations are far more liberal than the ones you'll find in the middle east.
From what i'm understanding from you is that also Haifa is occupied..

[Ssandro]

From what i'm understanding from you is that also Haifa is occupied.. Why Haifa? Haifa does not geographically border the West Bank or have a mainly Muslim population. It would be good if Israel could get rid of somewhere like Nazareth, but maybe it's not geographically possible (since it's not close enough to the West Bank). But East Jerusalem is. Israel should build a wall through Jerusalem (like the Berlin Wall, but permanent). The Old City could be a special religious zone.

[RoyB]

This thread has too many dracon94 posts in it = ruined.

[dracon49]

Why Haifa? Haifa does not geographically border the West Bank or have a mainly Muslim population. It would be good if Israel could get rid of somewhere like Nazareth, but maybe it's not geographically possible (since it's not close enough to the West Bank). But East Jerusalem is. Israel should build a wall through Jerusalem (like the Berlin Wall, but permanent). The Old City could be a special religious zone.
"They should never have annexed any Arab villages in 1948" and it wasn't an annexation...

[Ssandro]

"They should never have annexed any Arab villages in 1948" and it wasn't an annexation...
Many Arab villages - within the main body of Israeli territory - would have to be annexed. But many Arab villages (I'm talking about their populations, rather than their land) were unnecessarily taken into the new state. Arab villages close to the border with the West Bank (then Jordan), Egypt or Jordon, should have been handed over to those states in 48. Immediately after 67, Israel should have kept the West Bank and Gaza strictly separate from their country - tried to hand it back, or declare it the potential for a future Palestinian State - but the territory should have been kept completely separate.

[Octavariable]

Cite your source.

The last Lebanese census was done in 1932


Section I. Religious Demography
The country has an area of 4,035 square miles and a population of 4 million. Because parity among confessional groups remains a sensitive issue, a national census has not been conducted since 1932. However, the most recent demographic study conducted by Statistics Lebanon, a Beirut-based research firm, showed 28 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, 28 percent Shi'a Muslim, 22 percent Maronite Christian, 8 percent Greek Orthodox, 5 percent Druze, and 4 percent Greek Catholic. Over the past 60 years, there has been a steady decline in the number of Christians as compared to Muslims, mostly due to the emigration of large numbers of Maronite Christians and a higher than average birth rate among the Muslim population. There are also very small numbers of Jews, Baha'is, Mormons, Buddhists, and Hindus.

Link (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108487.htm)

10 bucks say you'll stick with the "It's not an official census, and so does not count - Lebanon has a majority of Christians yada yada yada"

[Zeev]

Including those who served with honor in the IDF?

druzes and beduins are the only muslims serving in IDF, not ethnic palestinians.

They are commonly known as "israeli arabs" but they are nothing less than palestinians, with the same state of mind.

[Zeev]

Not according to the latest Lebanese census.

Christians in Lebannon are arround 30%. Still a minority.