hip shooting...

[ayanami_tard]

no i don't mean rambo or going rambo or stuff like that

what i mean is whenever i watched documentaries about old military/LE story i frequently saw people shooting their gun from the hip. revolver,M1911,SMG, even from a bolt action rifle

any particular reason for that?

i'm quite sure they do know how to "aim" properly------i can't find any other suitable words)

[HollywoodMarine]

Now it's only used a last result and not very accurate unless at point blank. If your weapon is holstered, you become someones target at close range with no time to go tactical... hip shoot.

[ayanami_tard]

they are in the shooting range shooting like that.it seems that hip shooting is popular in the old days.from british commandos to OSS agent

there's even an old film of a GI shooting springfield rifle hip level.i understand about your point for a handgun but how about SMG/rifle?

[Skutatos]

they are in the shooting range shooting like that.it seems that hip shooting is popular in the old days.from british commandos to OSS agent

there's even an old film of a GI shooting springfield rifle hip level.i understand about your point for a handgun but how about SMG/rifle?
Maybe as a form of suppressive fire while on the move? Today they would obviously do things differently, but they had yet to learn much of what is used today back in WW2.

[Jippo]

I believe hip shooting originates from the habit of keeping the gun at high ready whilst transiting. In WW2 times high ready was the most favoured method and shooting from the hip is the fastest way to bring the weapon on to the target from high ready. In addition it is also somewhat shorter stance than aimed fire, thus useful in trenches etc.

I found it useful out to 10 m or so.

Google Fairbarn, hip & shooting for various articles on the issue.

[HollywoodMarine]

i understand about your point for a handgun but how about SMG/rifle?

I've also done it with rifles and shotguns. You may not always be at the ready with a weapon, and time will either be on your side or not. That's why we teach how to shoot in any position, weather, time of day, strong and weak arm. It's better to know how to shoot in any method to maintain your survivability.

[JJHH]

no i don't mean rambo or going rambo or stuff like that

what i mean is whenever i watched documentaries about old military/LE story i frequently saw people shooting their gun from the hip. revolver,M1911,SMG, even from a bolt action rifle

any particular reason for that?

i'm quite sure they do know how to "aim" properly<------i can't find any other suitable words)

Instinctive firing, taught by Fairbairn & Sykes to SOE/OSS agents. Aiming with your body rather than with eyes on the sights. Pretty handy during night combat..

[Maj C]

IIRC this was first officially formalized by Fairbairn and Sykes in their book "Shooting to Live" which was based on their time as Shanghai Police. I think it's commonly referred to as "point shooting" which contrasts with the aimed shooting advocates like Jeff Cooper.

Rex Applegate further expounded on this in "Kill or Be Killed" which he based on his training from Fairbairn in the OSS and his research on Wild Bill Hickock and other gunfighters. Hipshooting for extremely close range - then point shooting. There's a clip from a WW2 training film on the .45 that is part of Applegate's training on youtube somewhere.

I think Jelly Bryce was a hipshooter too.

google point shooting...

[tercio67]

It is still taught in the Dutch army. Both for pistol and rifle, we call it 'reaction firing'.

The syllabus for shooting is organised in modules;
1 Basic shooter (individual)
2 Trained shooter (individual)
4 Combat shooter (idividual and group/squad))
5 marksman (individual)

Each module is practised in the simulator first, followed by live fire on the range. People who are not organicly part of a group/squad can skip this module (4) and go directly for the 5th module.
'Reaction firing' is part of module 4.

[Migs]

Doesn't the French Foreign Legion take pride in hip shooting (not as strictly usage but being trained in it's use)? I remember reading that somewhere.

[kevlar308]

Hip shooting works a lot better with some weapons than others, as well. Firearms with good balance and ergonomics like the 1911, Uzi and M16 series, it can be good to about 30 feet, on the other hand weapons with considerable recoil are different. AK with stock folded, I've seen people who are good shots miss full size targets. In WWII, The BAR man often had a belt with a leather cup mounted on it to hold the stock so he could advance and fire from the hip at the same time.

[therifleman]

I think it's a technique of moving while laying down a lot of lead. I recall seeing some ww2 combat clips where a German soldier was advaning while shooting his MG34 from the hip. Also there was a Marine firing a .30 cal from the waist while walking into the jungle.

[JUNKHO]

IIRC - In the 60s the U.S. Army did some basic or (more likely) AIT training using BB guns with ping pong balls as targets. More of a quick reaction/hit on the fly than point and aim. Maybe close to "shooting from the hip" exercise.
(I didn't actually participate but remember reports about it)

[Laconian]

IIRC this was first officially formalized by Fairbairn and Sykes in their book "Shooting to Live" which was based on their time as Shanghai Police. I think it's commonly referred to as "point shooting" which contrasts with the aimed shooting advocates like Jeff Cooper.

Rex Applegate further expounded on this in "Kill or Be Killed" which he based on his training from Fairbairn in the OSS and his research on Wild Bill Hickock and other gunfighters. Hipshooting for extremely close range - then point shooting. There's a clip from a WW2 training film on the .45 that is part of Applegate's training on youtube somewhere.

I think Jelly Bryce was a hipshooter too.

google point shooting...

This. For handgunning the position was called "hip rock" in the late '40s - '50s and emphasized dropping and locking the gun hand elbow to the side, immediately after clearing the holsterModern research also backs this up especially in the area of sympathetic nervous system activation and its impact on vision. However, at ranges of further than 5+ yards, reliance on sights provides more accurate fire and research into the American Old West bears this out. Many of the more famous pistoleros used both sights and a two-handed grip, if a gunfight transitioned past the first round or so. The Hollywood gunslinger stereotype was just that - a Hollywood fantasy.

[grendel]

Doesn't the French Foreign Legion take pride in hip shooting (not as strictly usage but being trained in it's use)? I remember reading that somewhere.

Yeah, I also saw a French Foreign Legion docu where they were firing from the hip with their FAMAS.

[vinny_121_ND]

I saw tom cruise doing it training for the movie collateral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0

[JUNKHO]

Is this also "marching fire"?

[Hollis]

I saw tom cruise doing it training for the movie collateral.



Cool,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But any connection that a movie has with reality, is completely accidental.

[Hollis]

This. For handgunning the position was called "hip rock" in the late '40s - '50s and emphasized dropping and locking the gun hand elbow to the side, immediately after clearing the holsterModern research also backs this up especially in the area of sympathetic nervous system activation and its impact on vision. However, at ranges of further than 5+ yards, reliance on sights provides more accurate fire and research into the American Old West bears this out. Many of the more famous pistoleros used both sights and a two-handed grip, if a gunfight transitioned past the first round or so. The Hollywood gunslinger stereotype was just that - a Hollywood fantasy.


We were taught to be able to shoot our revolvers like that for very close ranges. One way, to clear your holster and keep the pistol at your side. Distance to perp, is maybe inches.

In RVN with a rifle it was done too. Not quite the spray and pray, but watch your impact. Actually accuracy was not all the bad, after the first round or two. One could walk their fire on target. Similar to point shooting. Keep your head up, sight over the barrel not using the sights. Sights can cause myopia. With multiple threats, pays to be able to see everything.

[California Joe]

I blame Chuck Connors in The Rifleman....

[James]

In basic training in 1967, my dad learned to hip shoot with an air rifle, then an M14. By the time I was in recruit training in 1993/94 we had gotten to the point where instead of hip shooting we brought the rifle to our shoulder and fired with both eyes open, not using the sights, the way Hollis described. In the mid 90s the USMC was still teaching one handed hip shooting with the pistol under certain circumstances too.

I think it's all evolution. If you just consider handguns, in the past 70 years we've gone from one hand and a bladed stance to Fairbairn's hip shooting, the Weaver, the Isosceles, and modified Isosceles. Gear has evolved from a flapped canvas or leather holster flopping against your hip to a piece of gear designed not only to retain and protect your handgun, but get it out quickly. The U.S. Military by and large stopped issuing revolvers after WWII, and most U.S. police departments transitioned away from revolvers by 1990. Sights have come a long way too. The sights on early 1911s were tiny compared to what's available and common now. How one uses the sights has also changed; I learned to shoot with one eye closed, but I taught myself to use iron sights with both eyes open.

I think a good way to see what the future will hold is to check out what IDPA competition shooters are doing today. They're all about speed, economy of movement, and accuracy.

[Geezah]

Cool,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But any connection that a movie has with reality, is completely accidental.

A few members from our Gun Club did a tactical pistol course that was run by one of our members(who is the firearms instructor) along with a few of his compadres from a large Police Department in our neck of the woods, and I seem to remember going thorugh a drill where we would draw and engage targets from the hip.
I know we went rhough a hell of alot, almost too much to take in in one sitting.

Also, Michael Mann as far as I understand it goes to great lengths to create movies that are as close to reality as possible.

[Hollis]

A few members from our Gun Club did a tactical pistol course that was run by one of our members(who is the firearms instructor) along with a few of his compadres from a large Police Department in our neck of the woods, and I seem to remember going thorugh a drill where we would draw and engage targets from the hip.
I know we went rhough a hell of alot, almost too much to take in in one sitting.

Also, Michael Mann as far as I understand it goes to great lengths to create movies that are as close to reality as possible.


Movies are contrived, things happen for a specific reason. No one gets killed, so survival is of no importance but following the plot and directors direction is. In real life, the end is unknown till you get there. There are no retakes and bad guys and good guys do not get payed to act that way, they are the way they are.

[Niels]

.................

[Dwelm]

Hip shooting can work today if facing a low tech (rebel group), this is the only vid I could find to support my comment.

I advise only to watch till 2:00 as this is combat footage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBqc7FbIcyY

If you are to have a MG in the group/line it would we a lot of fire power you put down, as was and still is done in South-Africa.

[Asheren]

Hip shoting is used for good old infantry assualt. Its more marching fire today but still you can move faster shoting form hip while still suppresing the enemy. You will fire a quick aimed shot when enemy is visible.
Its also part of military guards training in many countries to be able to fire a quick burst at full auto from hip. Its the only way to have a chance to fire before a hostile is able to do it.

[Judicatr]

The “weapon retention” position may be the “hip shooting” technique you are referring to. As an LE firearms trainer for my agency we teach it for close quarter engagements.

You’ll recall that the Tueller Drill demonstrated that an assailant with an edged weapon can, out to about 7 meters, close on a target and inflict serious, if not fatal wounds, in a second or less. This sort of spontaneous attack compresses the action / reaction processing for the LEO and places them behind in the reaction power curve. It has been demonstrated repeatedly that many LEOs can not clear the holster, especially duty holsters with retention devices, in that amount of time and deliver accurate fire from position 4 (in a 4 count draw stroke). It may also not make sense tactically to have your weapon fully extended at a target that close because, obviously, it allows the assailant to attempt a disarming technique and you end up fighting for your own weapon.

That said, clearly LEOs must interact with individuals, for a variety of reasons, at distances less than 7 meters. We teach this technique, and several others, as a possible response to spontaneous edged weapon attack.

Food for thought and respectfully submitted.

[Dinges]

And just to go back a few more years ( about 200-300 years ) , the blunderbuss was shot out of the hip (on the hip actually ) by the cavalry and any part of the body that could handle the recoil for the infantry.

[Warrigal]

I blame Chuck Connors in The Rifleman....

Yup... Western movies/TV shows made it popular.

I'd rather aim at what I'm shooting at.

[ayanami_tard]

tactical shooting in the old days,though i'm quite sceptical with the method

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/11/17/early-20th-century-shooting-technique/#comments

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4388/stil1tmtfb.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/i/stil1tmtfb.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Dc5-driver]

It is still taught in the Dutch army. Both for pistol and rifle, we call it 'reaction firing'.

The syllabus for shooting is organised in modules;
1 Basic shooter (individual)
2 Trained shooter (individual)
4 Combat shooter (idividual and group/squad))
5 marksman (individual)

Each module is practised in the simulator first, followed by live fire on the range. People who are not organicly part of a group/squad can skip this module (4) and go directly for the 5th module.
'Reaction firing' is part of module 4.

Yep;-).

I`m not a fan of it.
When hit by enemy your group have to drag you away.
Then they have to maintain a 360(cover).
They don`t have time for lose rifles.
So it`s recomended to use your sling allways.
The budstock of your rifle shoult fit in your sholder when lifted.
The weapon must reach of the two sholders in case of CQB.
But reaching the hip whit a sling?
So hipfire..maybe for the FN MAG and such type weapons.
Depends a bit on what kind of weapon you carry.
Sholder shoult be used if you ask me.
Some weapons jam more often when the sholder is not used.

[Hollis]

Yep;-).

I`m not a fan of it.
When hit by enemy your group have to drag you away.
Then they have to maintain a 360(cover).
They don`t have time for lose rifles.
So it`s recomended to use your sling allways.


The budstock of your rifle shoult fit in your sholder when lifted.
The weapon must reach of the two sholders in case of CQB.
And your expertise in CQB is?


But reaching the hip whit a sling?
Why not,?


So hipfire..maybe for the FN MAG and such type weapons.
Maybe read back in this thread, it is discussed. I knew a lot of grunts who have done that.


Depends a bit on what kind of weapon you carry.


Sholder shoult be used if you ask me.
We are not at the range, that would be a ideal.

Some weapons jam more often when the sholder is not used.
You need to explain that, I have never encountered that.



I am curious are you the military and have you been in combat (infantry?)

[Dc5-driver]

The sling is a must:
You need a possibility to use both hands while having your rifle in front of your chest.
To arest people and go trough windows e.c. ....CQB...p-)
When hit it shoult stick to the body....not on the ground.
Do you search a guy whitout a weapon in front of your chest?

The sling must be long enough to reach both sholders..
To use the rifle in corners so you can keep yourself behind cover...CQB.
The rifle shoult be a bit high in front of your chest for a quick reaction.
When the rifle jams you must push it away and get the side arm whitout dropping the rifle.

A corect position of budstock and breathing is 80% of a well aimed shot.
Lots of fireing during contact drills is done to get the heads down..
So the precision is not allways needed.

There are enough weapons whit jam problems.
A good shooting position shoult help in a lot of cases.
...FN Minimi para...p-)

Look at the pic`s....hipfire?

Been there done that...

143717

143718

[Laconian]

And your experience in CQB is?


I am curious are you the military and have you been in combat (infantry?)

You didn't answer all the man's questions.

[Dc5-driver]

You didn't answer all the man's questions.

I understand..

I`d rather keep it on the background then showing it the world.
But i`ve done it here and there...

Does the story make sence?

[Beowulf]

I saw tom cruise doing it training for the movie collateral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0

I remember being impressed with cruise's pistol work in collateral, especially the rock drill in the mugging scene, and the speed reloads in the club shootout.

[PEMM]

We got to try this once, mostly just to show us how hard it is.

[Skippy_Doolittle]

I understand..

I`d rather keep it on the background then showing it the world.
But i`ve done it here and there...

Does the story make sense?

*sits down with his popcorn* Oh, I like BTDT stories...

[Laconian]

I understand..

I`d rather keep it on the background then showing it the world.
But i`ve done it here and there...

Does the story make sence?

I think I understand your point, but if I go hands on a subject or have to maneuver over or around an obstacle and have to take both hands off my long gun (other than a transition to sidearm) the long gun goes in a weapons catch to reduce the weapon retention issue. YMMV.

[Skippy_Doolittle]

The shooting from the hip, once your firearm clears the holster, has come back into Ontario Police training as a close in last ditch measure. A good example is the murder of Vu Pham on March 8th 2010. Sometimes all you have is that moment to try draw and fire. No one is arguing slings for long guns - I think that constant training and shooting in a variety of situations (like HM stated earlier) is best all around. I hate that it took Ontario so long to include transition drills, movement and point blank shooting into its regular training of the Police services.

[trunk_munkey28]

There are no wrong ways, just better ways.
Was hip firing an appropriate measure in the days of the M14 or FN FAL?
****ing rights it was. Great guns for shooting Communists from 300m away, not so great for zapping VC from 3m away. The mission drives the technique train.
Is hip firing an appropriate measure for today, with rifle, carbines, or SMGs?
I'm not so sure. I know I can rock my C8 from low ready to the threat ready, feed two targets at 7 metres 3 rounds a piece, and then feed a third target 100m + away in 6 or 7 seconds. Could I do that hip firing? No. But could I have done it from the shoulder with an M14 or an FN FAL? Probably not.
Like anything else, training and technology has advanced.
With regards to slings, they're no longer a carrying strap for your long gun. They should be an instrumental part of your weapons system. Single point, 2 point, 3 point, again, mission drives the gear train.
Hip firing for contact shots, weapon retention, point blank, etc, especially with a pistol?
Hell yeah, stick it in the ****ers guts and have at her till he lets go or you're out of ammo.

[Skippy_Doolittle]

Well put Trunk_munkey

[Hollis]

TM, always good to hear what is currently used. I think it also depends on situation. I am not saying that Hip firing is the best in all, probably only in very few situations that it may be the best choice. That also depends on a person's training and experience. Just like there are several types of fire, effective, suppressive, etc (Not sure of all the new terms or even the older terms). Also in RVN we had M16 and no special anything, no ACOGs, EOTECH, etc. Irons sights was it. Some of the techniques requires to person to put a lot of rounds down range. I don't know if many people are in that position.

Just like shooting from the off hand, a lot of people don't but it gives a person another tool to use. A friend is ambidextrous, he shoots rifle right handed, pistol left handed. He feels there is a much faster transition from rifle to pistol when doing this. I shoot pistol, left or right hand and rifle predominately right hand. I have been thinking of developing my shooting my rifle left handed. For me, it would probably only come in handy for the Zombie invasion. I don't see my self being on the sharp end of he spear, heck I don't think they would even let me get near a spear today.

Who knows, one might be enjoying some personal time on the shytter when the SHTF.

[Dc5-driver]

*sits down with his popcorn* Oh, I like BTDT stories...


No I`m not here to tell cool story`s.
It`s just what many serviceman learn..

There are many good ways.
It`s very intreasting.
Most western country`s train pretty similar.
Im pretty sure that it`s one of the most dificult and hard jobs to have a combat unit perfectly running.
It`s very enoying when some say there simple numbers whit a simple job.....

Hipfire still has it`s place in the books.
FN Mag AA position LOL...just like those MG3 positions..
But reality?
More heavy MG`s are replaced by FN Minimi`s or SAW`s.
So all shooting positions can be done by those.
Those old and heavy rifles/LMG`s are getting replaced.
So hipfire will be less relivant.

[johanness]

looks not that bad ...

Great Marksmanship German Soldier G36 700m (765yards) from the hip at night in Afghanistan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bn3GvvkA6U&feature=player_embedded

[trunk_munkey28]

Good shooting, but doing it with a IR-LAD is significantly different than traditional hip shooting.
@Hollis, no worries. Regarding iron sights, they're still a vital teaching point, and on my CQB Instructors course we were mandated to use irons, no EOTechs, etc. The CF iron sights would be pretty much identical to the sights on a VN era M16, but with a thinner front post.

[HK in AK]

It sure helps with a IR-LAD and tracker rounds. We were hip shooting with auto UZIs and I could not for the life of me hit a suspended bowling from 15 meters away. Only on full auto and sweeping the target did I get any hits.........semi-auto did not work the greatest because you could not see the rounds, and it really sucked when you hit the bowling pin and it started swinging.

[Jurinko]

In Don Burgett memoirs (101st vet), running, yelling and hip-shooting was usual tactics of paras in hedgerow fighting in Normandy when attacking. My bet is, it scared the hell out of defenders.

[Hollis]

In Don Burgett memoirs (101st vet), running, yelling and hip-shooting was usual tactics of paras in hedgerow fighting in Normandy when attacking. My bet is, it scared the hell out of defenders.


Scaring the hell out of the other side is a very valid techniques, sometimes it is the only technique that will work when there is nothing left to do and your in deep kim chi.

TM, with experience, we would not use our sights in close engagements. Basically, heads up, eyes wide open and point shooting. Watching impact is done by peripheral vision. It allows for scanning for additional threats while having accurate and concentrated fire. I think it is similar to using a EOTECH. Peripheral vision is used to see where the red dot is, and normal vision is used to scan for additional threats............ Is my understanding. I tried a Holographic sight on a AR, that what it seemed to me. Problem with any sighting device, it can lead to tunnel vision/myopia. IMHO at very close range that is dangerous.

[trunk_munkey28]

TM, with experience, we would not use our sights in close engagements. Basically, heads up, eyes wide open and point shooting. Watching impact is done by peripheral vision. It allows for scanning for additional threats while having accurate and concentrated fire. I think it is similar to using a EOTECH. Peripheral vision is used to see where the red dot is, and normal vision is used to scan for additional threats............ Is my understanding. I tried a Holographic sight on a AR, that what it seemed to me. Problem with any sighting device, it can lead to tunnel vision/myopia. IMHO at very close range that is dangerous.
Honestly, that's very similar to how we do it today. Both eyes open but referencing the sights. Typically using the large aperture, and after a couple hundred rounds you don't even notice you're aiming anymore and you're fast as all hell.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

In the German army in ww2, hip shooting was standard training for all riflemen and machinegunners while on the move. Being able to work a rifle bolt and reload while on the assault was very important and is not very difficult once you get the hang of it.

Cheers

[RSone]

No I`m not here to tell cool story`s.
It`s just what many serviceman learn..

There are many good ways.
It`s very intreasting.
Most western country`s train pretty similar.
Im pretty sure that it`s one of the most dificult and hard jobs to have a combat unit perfectly running.
It`s very enoying when some say there simple numbers whit a simple job.....

Hipfire still has it`s place in the books.
FN Mag AA position LOL...just like those MG3 positions..
But reality?
More heavy MG`s are replaced by FN Minimi`s or SAW`s.
So all shooting positions can be done by those.
Those old and heavy rifles/LMG`s are getting replaced.
So hipfire will be less relivant.

I'll be the first to admit i have no actual experience, but firing an MG from the hip doesn't really seem like a good idea while in combat to me. I would think it helps spread, which is important in supressing/volume fire, but you're also exposing yourself a lot more as opposed to a ****e posture or when in a prepared position/defilade, both of which seem rather de rigeur to me when it comes to firing LMG/MMG's.

[Dave76]

I remember being impressed with cruise's pistol work in collateral, especially the rock drill in the mugging scene, and the speed reloads in the club shootout.
Courtesy of a certain Mick Gould, ex-THEM. He actually worked (together with 'Andy McNab') on a lot of Michael Mann's movies as technical advisor/firearms instructor.

[Dave76]

I'll be the first to admit i have no actual experience, but firing an MG from the hip doesn't really seem like a good idea while in combat to me. I would think it helps spread, which is important in supressing/volume fire, but you're also exposing yourself a lot more as opposed to a ****e posture or when in a prepared position/defilade, both of which seem rather de rigeur to me when it comes to firing LMG/MMG's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0gBx1NAko
A well-known video, SBS @ Qala-i-Janghi

[RSone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0gBx1NAko
A well-known video, SBS @ Qala-i-Janghi

I know the video, but to me it seems the gunner didn't have a lot of options here. The wall doesn't look like it would support a bipod too well and is too high to mount it and shoulder it without perhaps sitting down(in which case i don't know what the felt recoil would be like). He's also somewhat covered by it, so he's not entirely exposed.

[Dave76]

I know the video, but to me it seems the gunner didn't have a lot of options here. The wall doesn't look like it would support a bipod too well and is too high to mount it and shoulder it without perhaps sitting down(in which case i don't know what the felt recoil would be like). He's also somewhat covered by it, so he's not entirely exposed.
Yeah, but it just shows that circumstances dictate choices, especially in combat.

[James]

I'll be the first to admit i have no actual experience, but firing an MG from the hip doesn't really seem like a good idea while in combat to me.

Perhaps you shouldn't weigh in with an opinion.

[Dc5-driver]

Do you have to be a specialist to have a opinion?
Are you?

I don`t have any experience whit hipfire at all to.
Never done at any training or course..
Most of all Infantry weapons coult be used on many way`s including the use of your sholder.
So you shoult use it that way it`s a trilion times more acurate.
LMG`s like the SAW arent that heavy...or go to the gym and do something about it..
A soldier/Marine has his own responsibility to operate efective.
If you got the buttstock in your sholder you are fast enough..

And those vid`s:
Some are talented..

[Hollis]

Do you have to be a specialist to have a opinion?
Are you?


No you do not need to be a Specialist, There is a difference in BS and a Valid Opinion. A valid opinion is always welcome and that goes for a qualified opinion (knowing where a person is coming from). If you don't know, that keep the eyes open and mouth shut.

Also, you might want to re-read the rules of this forum, this topic is covered there, after all you did agree to abide by them to be a member here.

[Darboy]

In advanced training (Armor crewman - a long time ago) we hip fired the grease gun (.45 SMG). That was a treat. If you could get used to just tapping the trigger for a 3-4 round burst you were okay. But hold the trigger down and your rounds started to climb up and to the left.

[Laconian]

I understand..

I`d rather keep it on the background then showing it the world.
But i`ve done it here and there...

Does the story make sence?


Do you have to be a specialist to have a opinion?
Are you?

I don`t have any experience whit hipfire at all to.
Never done at any training or course..
Most of all Infantry weapons coult be used on many way`s including the use of your sholder.
So you shoult use it that way it`s a trilion times more acurate.
LMG`s like the SAW arent that heavy...or go to the gym and do something about it..
A soldier/Marine has his own responsibility to operate efective.
If you got the buttstock in your sholder you are fast enough..

And those vid`s:
Some are talented..

I'm confused. In the first quote, what does "it" mean? Hipfire? Combat? CQB? LEO Warrants?

In the second quote you state you've had no training with it, no experience with it. To echo what Hollis wrote, is your opinion an educated opinion based on education, experience and training or is it just some stream of consciousness type stuff? I'm not trying to be a ****, but we get all sorts of folks on here that make comments that they think are valid (and should be treated with the same respect as a comment from an SME or BTDT) just because their parents told them they were as good as anybody else. Unfortunately nothing can be further from the truth. Sometimes the mods just want to verify your street cred. If you don't want to post it here, them PM one of us. I don't expect your CV, but qualify your opinion.

If another professional has a different set of techniques or tactics than mine it doesn't necessarily make either one of us right or wrong, just different. Peoples' tactical toolboxes hold all kinds of stuff. However, if some gamer/amateur/airsoft wannabe starts to debate what will work or not work from having seen Apocalypse Now and played Call of Duty, then I (and many others) will dismiss it (usually with prejudice) as trivial.

[Dc5-driver]

I'm confused. In the first quote, what does "it" mean? Hipfire? Combat? CQB? LEO Warrants?

In the second quote you state you've had no training with it, no experience with it. To echo what Hollis wrote, is your opinion an educated opinion based on education, experience and training or is it just some stream of consciousness type stuff? I'm not trying to be a ****, but we get all sorts of folks on here that make comments that they think are valid (and should be treated with the same respect as a comment from an SME or BTDT) just because their parents told them they were as good as anybody else. Unfortunately nothing can be further from the truth. Sometimes the mods just want to verify your street cred. If you don't want to post it here, them PM one of us. I don't expect your CV, but qualify your opinion.

If another professional has a different set of techniques or tactics than mine it doesn't necessarily make either one of us right or wrong, just different. Peoples' tactical toolboxes hold all kinds of stuff. However, if some gamer/amateur/airsoft wannabe starts to debate what will work or not work from having seen Apocalypse Now and played Call of Duty, then I (and many others) will dismiss it (usually with prejudice) as trivial.

Hipfire no service yes...

In some Military`s it`s hardly done becuse some see it as outdated coldwar stuf.
Some don`t use it becuse you don`t hit a thing..
How many hipfire is used in modern drills?
Sure mate but whit a lot of slings it`s not even posible as I said before.
More problem`s due jamming...weapon stability maybe?

There are wrong drills/tactic`s..it`s most important to maintain a 360 coverage witch is VITAL.
Adopt to terain/country kind of houses/quala`s...
quala`s have 90% of the time a Wall and a courtyard maybe you shoult do it difirent then a regular european house?
Eyes and rifles at all diractions....and it`s dificult.
And so on and so on a trillion things more.
Human wave shizz is out...

Call of duty stuff?

[Beowulf]

In some Military`s it`s hardly done becuse some see it as outdated coldwar stuf.
Some don`t use it becuse you don`t hit a thing..
How many hipfire is used in modern drills?


Call of duty stuff?

As mentioned before the "rock drill" is taught pretty frequently, and even if you don't necessarily do the full rock drill you can begin firing a pistol as soon as you rotate up and begin pressing out towards the target...kind of like shooting from the hip.

I think you read Laconians post pretty quickly and didn't formulate a clear response.

Just out of curiosity, is English your first language?

[Dc5-driver]

As mentioned before the "rock drill" is taught pretty frequently, and even if you don't necessarily do the full rock drill you can begin firing a pistol as soon as you rotate up and begin pressing out towards the target...kind of like shooting from the hip.

I think you read Laconians post pretty quickly and didn't formulate a clear response.

Just out of curiosity, is English your first language?

No English is my second..
Okay pistol hipfire...
I`ve written it fast yes...I did not like the Call of duty part...
It`s okay for what it is now.

[Beowulf]

No English is my second..
Okay pistol hipfire...
I`ve written it fast yes...I did not like the Call of duty part...
It`s okay for what it is now.

I think he mentioned COD as an example, not necessarily directed at you.

[Dan2004]

In the academy, we were taught to fire our sidearms from the hip, but only within arms reach of your target; Support hand blocking or pushing off, 2 or 3 rounds, back up, achieve a better position, and sighted fire from there.

[Laconian]

No English is my second..
Okay pistol hipfire...
I`ve written it fast yes...I did not like the Call of duty part...
It`s okay for what it is now.

The COD comment was not necessarily directed at you but as an example of individuals basing their opinion not on real life but on fantasy. In this age of single point, three point or two point slings as a tactical accessory as opposed to a carrying strap (as trunk munkey pointed out earlier) has pretty much done away with hip shooting a long gun in the military and most LE applications, although there may be instances that require someone to shoot from the shoulder tuck or retention position. However, it can still be a viable technique, although one that I wouldn't use unless I couldn't get the gun to a shoulder pocket for some other reason. The hip rock as a reactive pistol technique or firing from retention in up close & personal encounters still has a place in combat shooting.

[seraosha]

We hip-shot the m60 when we had some ammo left over, shouldered it too, that stock flipup thingy helped. But we qualified in the ****e, iirc. I always thought that hip-shooting was just in movies or showing off. Thanks for the info folks.

[Dc5-driver]

The COD comment was not necessarily directed at you but as an example of individuals basing their opinion not on real life but on fantasy. In this age of single point, three point or two point slings as a tactical accessory as opposed to a carrying strap (as trunk munkey pointed out earlier) has pretty much done away with hip shooting a long gun in the military and most LE applications, although there may be instances that require someone to shoot from the shoulder tuck or retention position. However, it can still be a viable technique, although one that I wouldn't use unless I couldn't get the gun to a shoulder pocket for some other reason. The hip rock as a reactive pistol technique or firing from retention in up close & personal encounters still has a place in combat shooting.

It`s okay mate..;-)
Maybe I shoult test it hehe!

[Fianjnoglach]

IIRC, Fairbairns intention for Hipshooting/Pointshooting was as a Close Quarter Combat technique as opposed to an Assault technique utilising GPMGs etc.
Maybe some of the experts could weigh in and clarify?

[orange]

When firing heavier weapons, like the FN MAG, hip firing has it's uses.

This video shows some Swedish Army MP's advancing with our version of the MAG, the KSP58. You can fast forward to 0.45 in to the clip to get to the hip firing..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Nmh2MVxKk

[Dc5-driver]

When firing heavier weapons, like the FN MAG, hip firing has it's uses.

This video shows some Swedish Army MP's advancing with our version of the MAG, the KSP58. You can fast forward to 0.45 in to the clip to get to the hip firing..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Nmh2MVxKk

The LMG shoult not be placed on the first or last man.
I don`t understand why they have so much MAG`s in a group..
Normaly a group must have about 2 LMG`s.
One LMG for a section.
The buddy next to him shoult have a rifle/carbine.
And they shoult not run at thesame time.
The result is a section whitout fire when moving.
And I think its open enough so they shoult go for the ground.
It`s better due cover and its more acurate when shooting.
And so on.
No hipfire needed.

But its no Infantry so its no big deal.
Sweed`s know how to fight.

[orange]

It's not like they comprise a whole group out of MAG gunners. It's just the MAG gunners from the company that are training at the same time. I posted the clip to show how one operates the MAG while on the move. Gunners also need to move, you know. And advance. I can dig up a few more clips of Swedish Soldiers/Marines firing the MAG from the hip aswell if you really need to see that aswell. There's even a clip of a Coastal Ranger doing it that way. Infantry enough?

Btw, who are you? And why do you write in such a ridiculous manner? You really don't need to press "ENTER" after every sentence.

[hOMEr_jAy]

The huge muzzle flashes and these odd objects at the muzzle make me think that they´re fireing blanks. If they´re doing so, it´s actually not a big deal, fireing a medium MG from the hip. I´d love to see them doing this with live ammo. I can imagine it´d be a bit harder.

[orange]

The huge muzzle flashes and these odd objects at the muzzle make me think that they´re fireing blanks. If they´re doing so, it´s actually not a big deal, fireing a medium MG from the hip. I´d love to see them doing this with live ammo. I can imagine it´d be a bit harder.
Yup. Those are blanks and BFA's. The Swedish Armed Forces use wooden tipped blanks so our BFA's are pretty huge.

And yeah, it's harder but still has its effects. A buddy of mine was a MAG gunner in his Marine platoon and he was taught to fire from the when advancing or when he found himself in CQB. It's not optimal but it works.

[OhioSquid]

Hard to believe no one has posted this yet, since WW2 era point shooting methods were mentioned.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14qTdp-Dd30&feature=channel

[Dc5-driver]

It's not like they comprise a whole group out of MAG gunners. It's just the MAG gunners from the company that are training at the same time. I posted the clip to show how one operates the MAG while on the move. Gunners also need to move, you know. And advance. I can dig up a few more clips of Swedish Soldiers/Marines firing the MAG from the hip aswell if you really need to see that aswell. There's even a clip of a Coastal Ranger doing it that way. Infantry enough?

Btw, who are you? And why do you write in such a ridiculous manner? You really don't need to press "ENTER" after every sentence.

Im sure that the Sweeds can fight..;-)
Those of the clip are MP`s.
The weight of the MAG is the reason why its replaced by many country`s.
Gunners run yes.. when there buddy`s have found a fireposition and starts shooting.
It means all round cover and fire.

2 sections or move by a buddy system.
The buddy system is better when spaces are close.

[rhino]

The LMG shoult not be placed on the first or last man.
I don`t understand why they have so much MAG`s in a group..
Normaly a group must have about 2 LMG`s.
One LMG for a section.
The buddy next to him shoult have a rifle/carbine.
And they shoult not run at thesame time.
The result is a section whitout fire when moving.
And I think its open enough so they shoult go for the ground.
It`s better due cover and its more acurate when shooting.
And so on.
No hipfire needed.

But its no Infantry so its no big deal.
Sweed`s know how to fight.

wow, so much knowledge, so where you learned it?

[Beowulf]

wow, so much knowledge, so where you learned it?

x2

12345678

[Beowulf]

DC-5 sent me some background info, he has some combat experience. I'll leave any other comments up to him.

[ibstolidude]

I thought this was about shooting someone in the pelvis......

[Hollis]

I thought this was about shooting someone in the pelvis......


Slightly below and center is a very popular target.

[Dc5-driver]

@Beowolf:

It`s okay now.
No need for extra posts becuse its not important.

Back to the hipfire..

[hank2222]

if i remember this right from gunsite in the early 80s time and it was called a speed rock from the hip it was done with the left hand hitting the target and takeing a step back with the right foot to give us a little distance from the target when shooting from the hip with a 1911 pistol..

[Jippo]

Speed rock is very unfashionable these days. And IMHO for quite good reasons, as it is not very balanced position for close combat.

But shooting from the hip is as far as I know very much AOK as is. Many pistol techniques incorporate hip position as a part of the draw stroke and also as CC weapon retention position. Also with rifle it has its uses as a way of "shortening" the weapon in physically tight spots. Over the shoulder works with .223, but IMHO "shortening" the rifle by having the buttstock in the armpit is superior in many ways, especially with anything with more recoil than .223. YMMV.