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Migman
02-26-2010, 08:54 PM
I bet most of you didn't know that FL might well be on it's way to usher in the first true HSR system in the US.



http://i46.tinypic.com/15mgtvd.png

Nation’s first true high-speed line, in Central Florida, will serve Lakeland on its way between Tampa and Orlando.

After receiving $1.25 billion from the federal government last month for its planned 84-mile high-speed line, Florida is virtually guaranteed to offer the first true fully high-speed rail service in the United States. The state’s project, which will cost about $2.6 billion to complete, will connect the state’s second and third largest metropolitan areas with frequent service along the I-4 corridor. About three million annual riders are expected by 2030.

Though the focus of the system has been on its Orlando and Tampa terminals, it will also serve Lakeland, which will account for about half of all intercity riders. Florida must focus closely on the specific design of its route and stations to ensure the success of the system. Thus, making the right decisions about where the Lakeland station will be located and how the surrounding area is developed is essential.

The choice to build the new rail system along the Interstate highway corridor will make the system relatively easy to implement; the state is unlikely to face delays caused by NIMBYism, since the route is already used by hundreds of thousands of drivers everyday. In addition, the corridor is already wholly owned by the public and a median will allow the construction of an elevated guideway on the majority of the route between downtown Tampa and Orlando International Airport.

The highway allows a fully independent right-of-way, unaffected by grade crossings and free from the Federal Railroad Administration’s rules restricting the use of fast trains in shared freight and passenger rail corridors. Heavier vehicles (such as the Amtrak Acela) are significantly more expensive and have diminished performance compared to their lighter European peers, which the FRA will only allow to operate in fully separated rights-of-way.

Yet the selection of the Interstate corridor has its own major negative consequences. For one, it means no direct access to downtown Orlando. According to Florida Rail Enterprise’s Chief Operating Officer Nazih Haddad, there is no room in the median of I-4 near Orlando to allow the trains to enter. Meanwhile, the use of existing freight tracks is impossible because it would require removing all freight service from the tracks because of the decision to use non-FRA compliant rolling stock.

Therefore, no connection to Orlando’s center city is planned until the system extends north to Jacksonville in the future. A connection south to Miami is prioritized for now.

Nor is a direct connection to downtown Lakeland planned, despite that city being just off Interstate 4. Florida could improve the existing tracks and run trains directly into the center city, but that solution would engender similar problems as those experienced in downtown Orlando.

As a result, Lakeland will get a stop, but it will be somewhere in the median of I-4. Exactly how it’s implemented will determine whether the network’s projected ridership will play out as expected, and whether trains will be able to induce the kind of spin-off development for which affected cities hope.

Transportation board members in Polk County — whose largest city is Lakeland — weighed in this week on the county’s planned station; it will get only one, at least for now. They agreed unanimously to prioritize a stop at the intersection of Interstate 4 and Polk Parkway, where the University of South Florida Polytechnic is planning a new campus, in the midst of what can only realistically be described as rampant suburban sprawl. The University’s master plan for its new campus won’t help matters much, as academic buildings will be surrounded by parking lots and walkable connections to the future rail station would be tenuous at best.

Commissioners argued in favor of the Polk Parkway stop claiming that it would be better for future development and that it was closer to the county’s other major population center, in Winter Haven.

Yet this approach would do little to leverage the high-speed rail station’s ability to concentrate density, as the area is far from any population centers and the University’s design will eliminate a large parcel of land from development options.

The commissioners’ second choice is a station at Kathleen Road, near downtown Lakeland. This area is already relatively well developed and has transit connections, unlike the other potential site. A high-speed rail station there could serve as a development catalyst, helping to extend the existing downtown, becoming far more than just a place where people catch the train.

But the approach of Lakeland area officials suggests that they wouldn’t take advantage of the ability to densify the neighborhood around that stop either — the board’s members seem secure in assuming that everyone will drive to stations anyway. With that kind of attitude, some of the advantages of the implementation of fast trains simply disappear. It could be a disappointing outcome for one of the major stations on the nation’s first high-speed line.

Florida is moving forward with its high-speed line quickly. According to Operating Officer Haddad, “We hope to be in the ground within an eleven month period,” with service starting in early 2015. But the federal government’s limited commitment thus far isn’t strong enough, and the state isn’t providing any more money; the conservative state’s willingness to endorse a rail program at all is a serious improvement over the anti-rail policies of former governor Jeb Bush.

Yet as Mr. Haddad puts it, “We’re building something from scratch… we can’t do half of it.” He remains confident that the FRA will find the funds over the next few years to guarantee the Florida system’s completion. Here’s to hopes that it can be done right.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/26/how-does-lakeland-fit-into-floridas-strategy-for-high-speed-rail/

wildcat
02-26-2010, 08:58 PM
I wonder who's locos and cars are they looking at using, I just hoped they are Made in the USA, so if it is a foreign company, just build them in the USA

brokenlegdrunk
02-26-2010, 09:23 PM
i belive california is getting more funding for one to san diego

Migman
02-26-2010, 09:31 PM
i belive california is getting more funding for one to san diego

CA is definitely spending more on HSR, but the NIMBYs in SoCal can't even figure out a preferred alignment to San Diego.

JUNKHO
02-26-2010, 09:41 PM
Another one - MPLS TO CHICAGO

Awardees : Wisconsin Department of Transportation; Minnesota Department of Transportation
Total Approximate Funding (entire corridor) : $823,000,000
Benefiting States : Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois
Miles of Track : Upgraded - 144 miles, New - 32 miles, Planned - 275 miles (est.), Total - Appx. 441 Miles
The corridor stretching from the Twin Cities to Madison, Milwaukee, and Chicago is an essential segment of the Midwest rail system. However, there is currently no passenger rail service between Milwaukee and Madison, the two largest metropolitan areas in Wisconsin.
Using grants from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA), intercity passenger rail service will be established between Milwaukee and Madison with stops in Brookeld, Oconomowoc, and Watertown at speeds of up to 110 mph. Service is expected by 2013.


[more] http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/fact-sheet-high-speed-intercity-passenger-rail-program-minneapolisst-paul-madison-m

bryanleu2002
02-26-2010, 10:03 PM
what a joke, it will take the EPA several years to detiermin the environmental impact of the area in question.

CG51
02-26-2010, 10:13 PM
Glad the Federal Government has all this spare cash laying around.

Tons of money was spent in downtown Jacksonville for that stupid monorail and no one uses it.

bryanleu2002
02-26-2010, 10:16 PM
yes, same here in Seattle. we put up a multi million dollar monorail and no one uses it..

brokenlegdrunk
02-26-2010, 10:57 PM
not to sure i want to be moving at 160 while some guy texts his gf

Macs.
02-26-2010, 10:59 PM
I am normally someone who loves to drive and very rarely uses public transport, but just today I was using the ICE (German highspeed train) for a route that I drove earlier. The drive in the car took about 1 hour and 30 Minutes, without the stop for gas. On the way back I took the train, went into the railwaystation to the ticket computer and got my ticket in less than a minute. 15 minutes later my train arrived on exactly the very minute it was written on the ticket computer. The travel then only took 38 minutes to my destination.

I enjoyed myself and the train.

CG51
02-26-2010, 11:01 PM
Nonsense. There are highly capable people in the public transportation sector.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M74j8LvX6k

2Sheds_Jackson
02-27-2010, 01:56 AM
I voted for the thing, but I'm sure nobody will use it. It will be a drag on taxpayers like every other passenger rail system in the US.

What I think we could really use is some high-speed freight parallel to our over-crowded interstates. Many of them are only two lanes and at any one point you can see 30 or so semi-trucks...they box you in and slow you down...not to mention shutting down the highway when they flip over and block both lanes. I've been hit by more than one blown tire, forced out of my lane on several occasions, and I'm generally pissed off about these behemoths clogging up the road when there's no need. We should reclaim all the abandoned tracks that are out there and get these damn trucks off the long-haul interstates as much as possible.

wildcat
02-27-2010, 01:59 AM
I think it is wise to invest in this high speed rail now, if not, it will be harder in the future, it is an investment for the future, and getting the lines in place makes it easier, ridership will grow, it just good planning now to put this infrastructure in place.

Derbedeu
02-27-2010, 02:06 AM
I am normally someone who loves to drive and very rarely uses public transport, but just today I was using the ICE (German highspeed train) for a route that I drove earlier. The drive in the car took about 1 hour and 30 Minutes, without the stop for gas. On the way back I took the train, went into the railwaystation to the ticket computer and got my ticket in less than a minute. 15 minutes later my train arrived on exactly the very minute it was written on the ticket computer. The travel then only took 38 minutes to my destination.

I enjoyed myself and the train.

Riding on the ICE train in Germany for the first time was literally one of my most memorable experiences through my travels in Europe (it also happened to be my first time on a true high-speed train). Those trains are simply awesome. It would be nice if we could get some here in the US.

wildcat
02-27-2010, 02:11 AM
Riding on the ICE train in Germany for the first time was literally one of my most memorable experiences through my travels in Europe (it also happened to be my first time on a true high-speed train). Those trains are simply awesome. It would be nice if we could get some here in the US.

they did bring one over to the US for trail runs, in 1994 it toured (http://www.railfaneurope.net/ice/ice1.html) the USA, and was capable of electric and being hauled by diesel on non electric lines

RSone
02-27-2010, 03:09 AM
I wonder who's locos and cars are they looking at using, I just hoped they are Made in the USA, so if it is a foreign company, just build them in the USA

Severely depends on how much is going to be ordered. It's an expensive prospect to build a plant in Florida or the USA in general, just to produce a 'few' units. Bombardier would be a likely option if they went with a 'experienced' foreign company.( Bombardier builds the majority of the large trains for the Dutch railways)
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/intercity-trains/double-deck-electrical-multiple-units/dd-emu-virm---netherlands?docID=0901260d800129f8
Double decker intercity train type built by Bombardier (in Germany) for the NS.

xav
02-27-2010, 05:04 AM
They were talking of extending that line from Orlando to somwhere around Cape Canaveral or Cocoa, Melbourne, Palm bay then south along the coast all the way to Miami.

Not everybody seems to support the idea:
Many American visitors to France and Japan gush over those countries' high-speed trains. What they don't see is that, partly because of the high fares, the average residents of those countries ride them less than 400 miles a year.

Proponents argue the trains will be convenient for downtown-to-downtown trips. But less than 8% of Americans work in big-city downtowns -- mainly bankers, lawyers and government bureaucrats. Should it really be a state priority to subsidize wealthy travelers?
http://www.freep.com/article/20100218/OPINION02/2180419/1070/Opinion02/Take-a-pass-on-trains-Committing-to-rail-plans-would-cost-too-much

You would think this nearly 30-year history of rejection would send a signal to the train lobby, but with the Obama revival, it's back. The Florida Department of Transportation estimates the Tampa-Orlando project will cost $3.5 billion. But according to a 2009 GAO report, new high-speed rail projects in France, Spain and Japan average $51 million per mile. You read that right—$51 million per mile. That would put the cost of the Tampa-Orlando line at $4.28 billion. Which means the state will be on the hook for $3 billion.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204575039752047732906.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

In late 2009 some US rail system official visited France and Germany to get informations on TGV and ICE.

But there are rumors that for California, Japan will have an edge is their rail system is specificly studied to withstand earthquakes

StukaJr
02-27-2010, 05:38 AM
I hope that eventual computerization and technological advances in communication will make commute obsolete in
many fields faster than it takes to plan and build a high speed train. These projects start out as great ideas but
eventually get spoiled by meddling unions and public interest groups with their own interests in mind.

California's HST is a joke - we passed one penny tax, the project is to be completed by 2030 and will probably
be marred by the same problems all of California's public transportation projects... There is no guarantee that
it will be started and there is already talk that initial budget of 30 billion is too low - it might not have enough
commuters to pay for its operation. Granted I can go door to door from LA to SF in less than 3 hours by taking
Southwest and I don't have to wait 20 years.

Cal_Zephyr
02-27-2010, 10:52 AM
Florida's is about 15 years late, back in 1996-97 they were planning and had completed most of the EIS for the FOX system, (Florida Overland eXpress.) They were planning roughly the same route, Tampa to Orlando along I-4 then turning South to Miami along the FLA Turnpike. It was killed by then Govenor Jeb Bush.
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/fox.html

CA HSR will take a while to build, but I am confident it will succeed. You could in theory have a family that lives in Fresno and commutes to work to LA (Palmdale) and the other spouse goes to Sacramento. It will open up the San Juaquin Valley to development that other wise would not ever have contemplated looking there. This development raises property values and thus in turn raise property taxes. Don't think it is true...Look at downtown LA whose revitalization is greatly attributed to Union Station's reestablishment as a transportation hub due to Metrolink and Metro light rail. Although I would not hold my breath for the ribbon cutting in San Diego as that is the LAST phase of their planned construction.
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Railcar builders in California, New York and Canada have stated they will expand capacity if awarded contracts, but as previously mentioned this will probably be under license from a foreign company as there is absolutely zero experience in America building 220mph trains.

That said as of right now, only California and Florida have greenlighted 220mph projects. Those projects awarded money last month by the President are for "higher speed" corridors, between 90 and 125mph.

FOR EVERYONE that whines about rail systems losing money, you are absolutely right, lets get rid of all transportation systems that loose money and require government subsidies. Good bye, Amtrak, Good bye, High spped rail. GOOD BYE, city buses, good bye Subway systems, Good bye Ferry Boats, GOOD BYE American, Delta, United, US Air, Contiental, Japan, Ailitalia, and Swiss Airlines, GOOD BYE International Airports, as well as Interstate Highways.

I SAID GOOD BYE SIR!

CG51
02-27-2010, 11:07 AM
Heh, those are long established money losers. We don't need to create one from the get go.

My employers let me telecommute, I only have to drive in once a month for conference. I am one less car in the morning commute, my gasoline consumption has been reduced over 50%. I can spend that gas money (which isn't peanuts) on consumption (buying sh!t). Think if all the employers that could do that would do that. Maybe the Feds can assist companies with that it would be money better spent than on a train that will never be used.

Migman
02-27-2010, 11:54 AM
Severely depends on how much is going to be ordered. It's an expensive prospect to build a plant in Florida or the USA in general, just to produce a 'few' units. Bombardier would be a likely option if they went with a 'experienced' foreign company.( Bombardier builds the majority of the large trains for the Dutch railways)
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/intercity-trains/double-deck-electrical-multiple-units/dd-emu-virm---netherlands?docID=0901260d800129f8
Double decker intercity train type built by Bombardier (in Germany) for the NS.

Central Japan Railway with their Shinkansen N700 trainset and SNCF with Alstom's AGV are strong contenders. Not only to provide said trainsets but to operate the whole thing. Obviously Amtrak has their panties in a bunch over such a clear statement by the state. GE apparently wants in on production. We'll see how this turns out. I personally could care less who gets the contract, as long is it's NOT Amtrak.

Ordie
02-27-2010, 01:52 PM
Ordies thoughts on HSR:

The reason why it is effective in Europe and Japan is the geographical and resource limits of development in these countries. In Europe people are willing to pay high taxes for subsidizing the rail service.

HSR in the United States is long overdue.

My concerns:

Getting building money is easy, getting operating funds is another matter.

Panchito12
02-27-2010, 10:57 PM
This dream, and it's a dream, has been going on in for over 20 years. Let me get this straight:


-I'm sitting back in my parents home in TPA. I decided to see my sister in O-town.

-I have two options:

(1) Get on the car and drive 1:15 minutes. Done!

or

(2) Drive to the station. Park. Wait for the train. Get on board and slowly get out of TPA. Start hauling speed, but then I have to stop in that cesspool of rednecks known as Lakeland. Leave Lakeland, keep hauling. Get to O-town. Have my sister wait for me there. Drive to her place. Total travel of about 3 hours.

-Yep. Another dumb idea from the city that used to call itself "America's Next Great City" (which it never was and never will be).

p.s. Damn I'm glad I moved.