Band of Brothers Question reguarding Capt Sobell

[timetraveller]

What ever happend to Cpt Sobell [ sp ] the man that some refused to go into Combat with and were the letters written by those kept and are possibly still in existance .. ??

Is there any Pics of the said man ?

And how did the relations of the said man react to his Portrayl in the series ..


After watcing the 1st episode again ... I still feel there is a segment missing ... when you see them in civilian life making that decision ..to join the Airborne

[1Cie GevGn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Sobel

And I also remember from an interview, that the men tried to get him involved with the Easy Company annual reunion. I think it was Bill Guarnere who actually payed the annual fee for Sobel, so that he recieved the newsletter, and he was always invited to the reunions. He never showed up though.

[snafu_72]

If you have not read Band of Brothers you should. That will answer all your questions.

[timetraveller]

Cheers ...

[Kaplanr]

Maybe it was someone's idea of "profiling", but David Shwimmer was not the right person to cast for Sobel. What I came away with from the book is that he was a petty tyrant, didn't have favorites, and drove them hard for no cogent reason he ever stated. In the book they say that they benefited from the physical regimen and he became the focus of their disdain, instilling a group mentality - even if unintentionally. My problem with Shwimmer (besides the gratuitous typecasting,) is that he portrayed him as a buffoon. Sobol was an SOB and perhaps an indifferent leader, but i don't think he was a clown.

[1Cie GevGn]

I agree. Wasn't it Winters himself who once said "he made Easy Company"?

[FlintHillBilly]

No service was held for him after his death? Thats kinda terrible...Surely he had family or something. Maybe it was a money issue? I couldnt imagine.

[miguelencanarias]

It had to be tough for his family to watch such an influential TV series as Band of Brothers. I idolize my late grandfather (even if common sense dictates that he wasn't a flawless person), but it would have been utterly devastating for me to see him depicted as a piece of crap in a famous TV series.

[Kaplanr]

Some other people thought the same thing. http://herbertsobel.blogspot.com/2005/01/why-herbert-sobel.html He obviously has socialization issues, compounded by what the role of a CO is supposed to be in a training environment. All told a pretty sad individual, especially post-war.

[Cal_Zephyr]

Maybe..... In the book they say that they benefited from the physical regimen and he became the focus of their disdain, instilling a group mentality - even if unintentionally. My problem with Shwimmer (besides the gratuitous typecasting, is that he portrayed him as a buffoon. Sobol was an SOB and perhaps an indifferent leader, but i don't think he was a clown.
I dont think I agree here, and for one main reason. I can not fathom squared away NCOs jumping their chain of command and declaring they would not fight with/for their commander because he was hard on them. This generally only happens when leaders are idiots.

I do agree the trials of CPT Sobel made the unit tougher and tighter, you are correct that this often occurs under hard asses, but also occurs under idiots, as subordinates realize they have to rely on each other and not the CO.

As far as the fellas, supporting him over time, I would also venture to say, just my opinion, that as time went on they probably realized they screwed him, and hurt him personally. As one gets older you generally realize such mistakes and try to amend them.

You know, if anything, they may have saved his life in the long run....

Cheers

[California Joe]

He got off easy compared to the portrayal of Lt. Norman Dyke (sp?)

[LineDoggie]

True, in my company at Hood & NTC we thought the Cdr.(known then as "Captain America") would get us all Killed from some of his odd decisions. Eventually we realized the manner behind them and had confidence in him while in Iraq. However another PL was always where the action wasnt. Without fail if 3rd Plt was in an Ambush 1st Plt. was the furthest away doing a Bilat and showed up after the action was done. Another Surplus O-1 was so bad we took him on Patrol exactly Once. eventually he became an LNO at Brigade to get rid of him.


IIRC Sobel screwed up Field Manuevers enough times that he was viewed as imcompetant by the time they shipped out to Britain.

[Andreas]

He got off easy compared to the portrayal of Lt. Norman Dyke (sp?)

Jupp, that guy really got a gloomy portrayal of his character..
Everytime I watch BOB, I cringe at what his family members might feel if they watch the series..

[Kaplanr]

I dont think I agree here, and for one main reason. I can not fathom squared away NCOs jumping their chain of command and declaring they would not fight with/for their commander because he was hard on them. This generally only happens when leaders are idiots. . .

Agree with almost everything. He probably had no business being a company commander, certainly not in a combat environment. I just think there's a difference between how the actor plays incompetence or inability, vs. his being a clown. I don't have a problem with Ambrose, it's the series' writers who IMHO, went overboard on him.

[Cal_Zephyr]

It's one of Hollywood's favorite, fall back on, easy to write and cast parts, the bumbling, stumbling, dumb ass officer. Think about almost every War picture out there and there is at least one officer in the story that is a moron or crazy. The only movie I can't think of that depicts this is Full Metal Jacket, and come to think of it, I don't think there are any officers in it. (of course it has been a while since I have seen R. Lee Ermey at his best.)

[LineDoggie]

It's one of Hollywood's favorite, fall back on, easy to write and cast parts, the bumbling, stumbling, dumb ass officer. Think about almost every War picture out there and there is at least one officer in the story that is a moron or crazy. The only movie I can't think of that depicts this is Full Metal Jacket, and come to think of it, I don't think there are any officers in it. (of course it has been a while since I have seen R. Lee Ermey at his best.)
The Col. at the Mass Grave in Hue.... and the PAO Lt. Other than that only Lieutenant Walter J. "Touchdown" Schinowski

[California Joe]

The n00b Lt. is portrayed in every single war movie. Usually as a counterpart to the wise, battle hardened Sergeant.

There were certainly at least a couple of complete asshat officers and NCOs in Generation Kill...

[Brasi]

Maybe it was someone's idea of "profiling", but David Shwimmer was not the right person to cast for Sobel. What I came away with from the book is that he was a petty tyrant, didn't have favorites, and drove them hard for no cogent reason he ever stated. In the book they say that they benefited from the physical regimen and he became the focus of their disdain, instilling a group mentality - even if unintentionally. My problem with Shwimmer (besides the gratuitous typecasting,) is that he portrayed him as a buffoon. Sobol was an SOB and perhaps an indifferent leader, but i don't think he was a clown.

Schwimmer worked for me, perhaps you had a different actor in mind. The fact of the matter is the only people who knew how bad he was were the people under his command, and a lot of them were still alive at the time the book was made. Not sure how you could know how the guy was in real life, but as for me I'll trust the memories of the men who served under him.

[digrar]

I'm just reading Beyond Band of Brothers now. Winters describes him as being very good when he was fully in control of a situation, but as soon as variables were put into play, he crumbled, great for a training unit, not so good on operations.
He also mentioned that troopers were playing with Sobel to make him look even more incompetent. The fence cutting scene in the movie, that wasn't mentioned, but things like hiding his map and compass were common pranks played in order to fluster him.
The hi ho silver and yelling prior to initiating contact as depicted in the movie was also mentioned by Winters. I think Shwimmer played him pretty well, there is also a bit of resemblance.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7377/captherbertmsobel506e.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/captherbertmsobel506e.jpg/])
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7377/captherbertmsobel506e.jpg)

[timetraveller]

^^^ Cracked under the pressure .


And anyone shouting yelling Hi ho silver in the field would probably have met a bullet imo

[Panchito12]

The n00b Lt. is portrayed in every single war movie. Usually as a counterpart to the wise, battle hardened Sergeant.

...

....and the black guy that always gets killed in the first contact,
....and the wholesome mid-westerner, with the wholesome gal back home,
....and the wisecracking, "street smart" :roll:Brooklyn (or New Jersey) guido,
....and the racist, surly southerner,
....and the son of a mexican immigrant who is trying to prove his americanhood,
....and the Indian who for some reason everyone assumes he's an expert tracker/hunter,
....and the cowardly/peacenik type who always dies in a MoH-type of heroic action,
....and the too-cool-for-combat surfboy from SoCal,

etc., etc., etc.

There is no hope for Hollywood.

[Skutatos]

....and the black guy that always gets killed in the first contact,
....and the wholesome mid-westerner, with the wholesome gal back home,
....and the wisecracking, "street smart" :roll:Brooklyn (or New Jersey) guido,
....and the racist, surly southerner,
....and the son of a mexican immigrant who is trying to prove his americanhood,
....and the Indian who for some reason everyone assumes he's an expert tracker/hunter,
....and the cowardly/peacenik type who always dies in a MoH-type of heroic action,
....and the too-cool-for-combat surfboy from SoCal,

etc., etc., etc.

There is no hope for Hollywood.

Some movies avoid these stereotypes...they are virtually all foreign films however. I guess "Flags of our Fathers" avoided these to a large degree.

[miguelencanarias]

....and the black guy that always gets killed in the first contact,
....and the wholesome mid-westerner, with the wholesome gal back home,
....and the wisecracking, "street smart" :roll:Brooklyn (or New Jersey) guido,
....and the racist, surly southerner,
....and the son of a mexican immigrant who is trying to prove his americanhood,
....and the Indian who for some reason everyone assumes he's an expert tracker/hunter,
....and the cowardly/peacenik type who always dies in a MoH-type of heroic action,
....and the too-cool-for-combat surfboy from SoCal,

etc., etc., etc.

There is no hope for Hollywood.

While at the same time, the enemy is a faceless, dehumanized crowd who has no fear, charges ahead mindlessly again and again and consumes an astonishingly large ammount of ammunition just to hit that goddamn black guy. They also wear magnetic devices that attract bullets so every burst fired from the hip by Surfboy and his posse doesn't go to waste.

[SniperLane]

war sure is a fun buisness in the eyes of Hollywood.

[Jurinko]

Schwimmer was a good choice IMHO. He was a tragic person, read about his last years.

PS. I didn´t watch Friends.

[Kaplanr]

Maybe. I can't see past Ross (Friend's TV show character.) It would have been like casting Micky Rooney as Queeq.

[gaijinsamurai]

Maybe. I can't see past Ross (Friend's TV show character.) It would have been like casting Micky Rooney as Queeq.

I never watched "Friends", but perhaps it was like casting Will Smith as a Marine captain in "Independence Day" (which I also have yet to see), before he started being looked at as a serious actor.

[LineDoggie]

Schwiimer wasnt that badly cast. Ricky Schoeder as Maj Whittlesy in the Lost Battalion was horrific

[baboon6]

Schwimmer was a good choice IMHO. He was a tragic person, read about his last years.

Agreed. I never watched too many episodes of Friends.

[James]

....and the black guy that always gets killed in the first contact,
....and the wholesome mid-westerner, with the wholesome gal back home,
....and the wisecracking, "street smart" :roll:Brooklyn (or New Jersey) guido,
....and the racist, surly southerner,
....and the son of a mexican immigrant who is trying to prove his americanhood,
....and the Indian who for some reason everyone assumes he's an expert tracker/hunter,
....and the cowardly/peacenik type who always dies in a MoH-type of heroic action,
....and the too-cool-for-combat surfboy from SoCal,

etc., etc., etc.

There is no hope for Hollywood.

Don't forget the Jew.

[miguelencanarias]

Don't forget the Jew.

The thin guy with the thick glasses?

[Kaplanr]

He's interchangeable with the guido. William Bendix was the universal Brooklyn guy.

[baboon6]

Band of Brothers was obviously not entirely accurate, no film or TV drama can be, but I think it was better than most. It avoided most of the cliches and stock characters that have been described in this thread.

[Podman]

Maybe. I can't see past Ross (Friend's TV show character.) It would have been like casting Micky Rooney as Queeq.

Agreed. I mentioned to my Dad once that I couldn't believe they cast Schwimmer as Sobel. Having never seen an episode of Friends he hadn't the faintest idea what I was talking about and thought Schwimmer was great.

On a somewhat related note, I've read Larry Linville (Frank Burns on MASH) had trouble getting good acting jobs after MASH because audiences had a hard time assuming he wasn't an a$$hole. He played Frank Burns too well and it hurt his acting career.

[LineDoggie]

He's interchangeable with the guido. William Bendix was the universal Brooklyn guy.
Ahh yes, William Bendix. Because there were 290 lb Marines on Guadalcanal after 6 months in the jungle..... And y'all are forgetting the most Typecast War movie actor ever

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/rj1.jpg






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7z5J7o_uPs

Richard Jaeckel

[nemowork]

I still can't believe the dirty dozen was once a hard hitting and controversial movie, its quite sweet these days.

The germans have all gone to the imperial stormtrooper school of marksmanship and everybody has an MP40 they cant use. except the one guy who cant aim straight even 50 yards away with a sniper rifle.

and of course if by some fluke they do hit one of your guys, theres always the old cliche of 'you always get the one that did it'

[SniperLane]

1967.. what did you expect? nobody defied the might of the Glorious USofA that won the most brutal war of the century all by themselves.

[California Joe]

Alright, what was the movie that starred Robert Mitchum as an Ernie Pyle kinda reporter and Peter Falk was in it and it had a scene with a badass German sniper that did all the right sniper stuff but of course they still killed him. Probably with a Thompson shot from the hip?

[nemowork]

Anzio (1968)

Kind of predictable as a name isnt it :D

[California Joe]

Yeah, that was it. I was too lazy to look it up. ;)

Strangely enough I remember the German sniper for being the coolest part of the whole movie...

[LineDoggie]

1967.. what did you expect? nobody defied the might of the Glorious USofA that won the most brutal war of the century all by themselves. Your Welcome....

[nemowork]

Funny, for me it was always the bit where the Rangers get ambushed with tanks, anti-aircraft guns and the entire german army appearing put of haystacks that stuck, mainly because it got repeated as stock footage in every US/Italian movie for the next ten years.

[Kaplanr]

..... And y'all are forgetting the most Typecast War movie actor ever
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/rj1.jpg
Richard Jaeckel

Or maybe the least capable. He played the same guy, doesn't matter if it was a war pic or a western.

[SniperLane]

Your Welcome....

i was being sarcastic you know...

[LineDoggie]

Nevertheless, your welcome for the USA's actions

[SniperLane]

yes ok they did.. contribute maybe even more than anybody involved, i admit, for myself.

[EasyC]

Whoever has read the BoB book, what was Spiers like in relation to the films? I always thought he was the strangest character of them all.

[digrar]

He shot one of his Sergeants between the eyes on D day + 1, the Sergeant was putting the boys at risk, he wouldn't follow orders, so Speirs shot him, then reported the incident to his Company Commander.

[EasyC]

Hmm, fair enough.

[nemowork]

He shot one of his Sergeants between the eyes on D day + 1, the Sergeant was putting the boys at risk, he wouldn't follow orders, so Speirs shot him, then reported the incident to his Company Commander.

I take it this incident got replaced with the fictional one of him maybe, possibly shooting prisoners offscreen in the series?

[baboon6]

I take it this incident got replaced with the fictional one of him maybe, possibly shooting prisoners offscreen in the series?

It was mentioned several times in the series.

[digrar]

Both were stories going around the Second Battalion 506th. The Sergeant story was true, Winters wasn't as definitive with the Prisoner shooting though.

[Mastermind]

Man...reading the short on him at Wiki...what a tragic life. And, to try suicide and screw that up, just blinding yourself...then alone for 17 years at the VA home....and then dead from starvation. No one apparently gave a crap about this tragic veteran. And one has to wonder why.

Well, he served when others did not or would not...so in my book, that makes him a hero. Apparently, he did something right, or he would not have ever been promoted as he was....you don't make Light bird for nuthin.

I say, may God bless his soul and RIP.

MM

Oh, and if you want a fantastic treat, read Gann's other books...he is one hell of a writer. I particularly recommend "Fate is the Hunter"...his life and experiences as a pilot. He also wrote "The High and the Mighty" and "Island in the Sky"...both novels based loosely on real events and real people.

[Warrigal]

He was damaged goods who did the best he could.