The rise of the new Soviet Union [Archive]

View Full Version : The rise of the new Soviet Union

Pages : [1] 2

CaptMorgan68

03-01-2010, 08:03 PM

The Rise Of The New Soviet Union: The ‘Architect’? Putin!

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1843/034560putin.jpg

Whoever said life happens when you aren’t paying attention was absolutely correct. Consider the rise of Russia. While the U.S. is mired in numerous domestic and global challenges, our friends in Moscow, most specifically Vladimir Putin, have been strategizing how to bring Mother Russia back to her former vaunted self on the world stage. And the biggest mistake we can make is to consider Russia as the bumbling former evil empire – long on military but short on finesse and led by oafish party hacks.

As of this writing, Russia is a major player in South America and Cuba; a growing player in Africa, Indonesia and the Pacific Rim; a significant shareholder in the U.S. (between China and Russia they own a bunch of our financial instruments); patron or patriarch in Iran and the Middle East; power broker in parts of Europe, Eurasia and, most masterful of all feats if they can pull it off – being wooed as partner, if not member, of NATO by NATO! Ever feel like you are in the looking glass? You have to admit that Russia, through Vladimir Putin, has accomplished a fair amount since the dismantling of the USSR – an event he likens to one of the worst disasters in history and something he has sworn to reverse. He sounds like a man on a mission. We would be well not to underestimate him, although it will require a lot of savvy on the U.S. and West to counter him. It’s not looking good right now for the good guys.

Ironically, consider that Russia has taken pages from our playbook. After the end of the Cold War, the U.S. reached out to the former satellites. The U.S. tried to assist their economies, aided in the reconciliation of the poorer Europe with the wealthier Western Europe. And then took our eye off the ball. There was some new sign of life in our foreign policy when the U.S. tried to counter the influence of Russia in the gas pipeline wars. We led the way doing business in Russia’s back yard – and other adversaries’ back yards. But now we seem to be losing that influence. Influence, commerce and national security go hand in hand. This is a bad time to develop amnesia.

Some will quickly jump in and assert the tired old stereotype that Russia is grey, poor and ineffectual, suffering from a collapsing economy under the weight of corruption and vulnerable to the same financial markets as other capital intensive countries. Nyet! Even with a teetering global economy, we should not make the mistake of thinking it will
derail the folks in the Kremlin. Why? Simple: Russia has something much of the world needs and therein rests one of her greatest protections – ENERGY! And President/Prime Minister Putin has deftly led both Gazprom and his nation from distant second former super power to major global player. Gas and oil are the lifeblood of global commerce: combining those two resources makes Russia the top gun in energy exports.

Unlike other world leaders, Vladimir paid attention and learned from the victories and mistakes of others. For example – the US and much of the world pays homage to the likes of OPEC for the most practical of reasons – they have oil and the world, especially the US and Chinese economies run on petroleum. Until someone can find a cost effective and plentiful alternative to fossil fuels for medicines, synthetics, and energy we will all be held hostage to the energy nations of which we are not the prime player (although we could become one if we’d go into the Arctic and claim our rightful portion, as I’ve suggested in the past).

Some will even argue what’s the big deal, the U.S. can’t be the only nation exerting influence in the world, as if competition is always a good thing. Sometimes it is, as we saw Massachusetts where Scott Brown won the election in what has become a one-party state, demonstrating that competing ideas can be healthy. But Russia is not Scott Brown! And while it can be argued that the U.S. has sometimes backed the wrong folks and for the wrong reasons in a number of banana republics, overall the good we have done exceeds the missteps. When in our collective memories can we remember cutting off the heat to schools or using children as pawns to exert influence and instill a sense of fear? Or invading a peaceful nation without provocation? Yes the U.S. invaded Iraq, but it was not a sneak attack and it was not without a coalition of other nations. Yet Russia and her leaders have made no secret that they will use the carrot or the stick to their advantage. Georgia is certainly not Iraq or Afghanistan.

At one time our strategy was smart: we went after the former USSR satellite nations and critical crossroads countries. But like so many of our efforts, we got distracted. Or perhaps, as befitting our national character of entrepreneurs, we enjoyed the hunt more than the capture. Unfortunately, as Dr. Johnson once opined centuries ago, “Friendships must be kept in constant repair.” We seem to have forgotten that one and are watching our influence slip through our fingers.

While the devastation of Haiti was playing out, a few events went relatively unnoticed over the last couple weeks that warrant some attention.

First was the anniversary of Russia turning off the heat to the Ukraine, which sent a chill…figuratively and literally…through Europe. If New England can be described as a region with two seasons – summer and winter – such can be said about much of Eastern Europe, prime customers of Russian energy. In early January 2009, Russia/Gazprom (terms used interchangeably) shut off gas supplies going through the Ukraine to Europe. In spite of our (U.S.-led coalition) best efforts to try and counter the Russian/Gazprom juggernaut and its pipeline projects into Europe, the reality is that approximately 75 percent of the Russian gas that transits to Europe is shipped through pipelines crossing the Ukraine. While other pipelines run through Belarus and Turkey, the Ukraine is the linchpin. And therein rests one of the most strategic and fundamental values in the global tug of war between the U.S. and Russia for influence in Europe. The Ukraine is symbolically important – the Orange revolution was supposed to tap into the West and offer untold benefit to the nation. Such did not happen and the country slowly but surely was courted by Moscow as if the failures of Yuschenko, who leaned towards the U.S., became a vindication of Russia.

And how did Moscow play a power game? By letting the victims of their efforts huddle together or find other ways to heat their homes and schools in the dead of winter. This was not a price dispute as Putin and Putin Lite (Medvedev) would have us believe. It was a brutal “shot across the bow” to remind Europe not to mess with Moscow. And it worked! From NATO to Kiev, you will notice a warming effect towards Russia. Recent round one of the Ukraine elections saw two Russia leaning candidates vying for the presidency: Viktor Yanukovich and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. Neither shared Yuschenko’s affinity for the West. Now to be sure, neither if they are smart will jump too far too fast towards the Kremlin without at least keeping one eye on Washington; playing both ends against the middle is not a bad strategy when you realize your nation is “the prize” for rival super powers – symbolically and practically. If the Ukraine lands in the Russian alliance it will be a major coup for Putin and another validation of his strategy of pseudo-annexation or recreation of the former USSR through alliances based upon energy, weapons, the politics of jealousy, the implied promise of protection. The U.S. needs to stay very involved in Ukraine, Hungary and Bulgaria. All three still have a need for what the West has to offer and folks at the street level can still become a powerful force – but not if they are cold and hungry.

An impressive list of allies and potential allies warm themselves on a Russian gas fire: Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Greece, Italy, Macedonia, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Turkey. Austria, France, Germany, Hungary and Poland fared a little bit better, as they only had some of their supplies cut. The message from Moscow was not subtle but it was effective! Quelle surprise – Moscow won. That was in 2009. In 2010, their strategic and tactical efforts continue to pay off handsomely.

Secondly, Russia has just completed a test flight on their new stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T 50. Why does a country that decries cold war mentality build a cold war weapon? For one thing, it is a commercially viable commodity. India and several other nations will want to participate in and/or acquire some. It is likely when the Russian T 50 is fully developed – Putin suggests 2015, which means in a couple years or less in Moscow speak – quite a few customers will be waiting. To be sure, some military experts think it is all smoke and mirrors while others suggest it is a giant leap forward for Russia. Historically, the former might be correct – Russia’s best weapons or certainly most beloved, and the AK 47 immediately comes to mind – have been simple, rugged and low maintenance. The T 50 like other advanced weapons requiring complicated integrated components which means subcontractors, have been plagued with problems and delays. But their resolve alone should be cautionary.

To be fair, there are some in Russia who wonder why build a weapon for which there is no conflict or adversary. That is naïve in that as long as one super power exists the other will or should always be wary and prepared, if for no other reason than to keep each side honest.

There’s a brilliant deceptiveness about all the public denunciations by Moscow about the cold war mentality of the West, and the need to put behind old rivalries for the sake of the world and the need for Russia and NATO to unite against the new threat – terrorism. If Moscow considers the Cold War so yesterday, then why is it building weapons that are designed to counter those of the US? If terrorism is the threat, why the advanced tank, advanced interceptor missiles, advanced ballistic missiles, advanced stealth fighters, planning a new nuclear fleet including submarines and super carriers?

“All warfare is based upon deception.” –Sun Tzu – The Art of War

Never let what you see dissuade you from what you believe. The Russian “let’s turn our swords into ploughshares and put our prior differences in the past” sound bites are working. NATO has Russia right where Moscow wants them! It is almost palpable, Pavlovian, how much some of the NATO leaders want to sing Kumbaya with Russia. Wasn’t NATO created to counter the Russian threat? I could be wrong. But the world, especially NATO would do well to read about the Trojan Horse. Welcoming Russia into the inner circle of NATO, is a dangerous move. We have been lulled into thinking Russia wants to help “us” in the global war on terror. Considering it might be argued Russia is behind some of the evils going on in the world – as patron, educator, enabler, financier, armorer or provocateur – it would also be foolish.

Make no mistake about it – the world is a chess board. Each piece represents a major domain – economics, energy, weapons, methods of disruption, public relations, all overlaid on desired regions to acquire.

“Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”

The first mistake we make is underestimating the influence of and ignoring the stated objectives or actions by competitive if not adversary nations. Putin has never made it a secret that restoring Russia is his prime motivation. He is a true leader. Although his tactics are a bit rough to say the least, he clearly understands his job as Russia’s CEO – take care of business. And the business of nations is to project influence, protect assets, grow an economy and conduct commerce. Our leaders would do well to remember that.
So let’s look at how Putin is handling those four domains:

Project influence

Russia uses the politics of anti-West, anti-U.S. jealousy very well. They also use energy, money, weapons, friendship or fear to promote alliances. Ask Europe how it feels to be warm. Point made. Or, ask Syria who is helping them rebuild the Port of Tartus, or provides money and technical expertise for their weapons (biological, conventional and were it not for Israel, their nuclear aspirations). Point made. Or, how about Iran and their missile systems, nuclear program, biological and conventional weapons, energy deals, pipelines and other commercial as well as geopolitical influence? Or feeding the anti-U.S. fires in Cuba, Venezuela and other places in South America or the Caribbean. And the U.S. would do well to watch our own back yard – poverty breeds jealousy and dissent – the very foundation that Russia builds alliances upon.

Our leaders should also keep an eye on the poorer nations in the Caribbean, especially those building ties with Russia, Venezuela and Cuba.

Let’s not forget the “CSTO.”

Russia and six ex-satellite nations – former Soviet States – agreed to jointly (translation – Mother Russia rules) create a special military force designed to challenge the influence of NATO. The Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) members Russia, Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyztan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan have also pledged to deploy their “special forces” units as well as collaboratively contribute to this new military alliance. According to several sources, the scope of the military presence will be significant – the name “rapid reaction unit” notwithstanding. In typical Russia-speak – that is, language designed to deceive – this will not be a SWAT team or even a SEAL team in the U.S. definition of “rapid reaction” force to handle small insurgent attacks, but a force to be reckoned with.

Russia, increasingly sensitive of U.S. and Western influences with their border nations, has expended significant effort and various forms of persuasion – economic, military, energy and political – to reign in or reestablish relations with the “Stan” nations and others critical to creating a buffer zone. Moreover, the members of the CSTO have valuable transit routes for United States interests – supply lines and military bases to support the war effort in Afghanistan, and Russia – pipeline routes for oil and gas. Our pipelines could be vulnerable to “accidents” or sabotage.

Though publicly billed to be able to suppress “terrorist” aggression, Dmitry Medvedev let there be no room to miss the Sicilian message “the military alliance would allow operational reaction to threats and would not be less powerful than NATO forces.” The Armenian president Serzh Sarkisian tried to put a more temporizing tone – “the rapid reaction force is aimed at strengthening the military capacity of our organization.” It sounds good, but Medvedev (heretofore considered “Putin lite”) was letting the world know, “We’re baaaaack!”

Turkey is perhaps one of the most critically important nations to U.S. interests abroad, and we are losing our influence. Historically, the U.S. and Turkey have had reason for common ground and cooperation. Our military bases have been there for years and are strategically a key to our influence in the region. Turkey is geographic crossroads for commerce, military operations and another key energy transit nation. They are a moderate voice in a volatile Islamic region. Turkey is one of the few Muslim nations – secular or not – to recognize Israel.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)

In the aftermath of the Cold War, Russia and China created the SCO – primarily serving as a security cooperative arrangement and provider for the Central Asian region. It has since evolved to become a framework for strategic partnerships. The original members of SCO were Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. This alliance represents 25 percent of the world’s population, a significant supply of oil, gas and other natural resources, as well as significant economic growth potential. Is it surprising that Iran, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Mongolia have expressed great interest in joining? Terrorism, separatism and extremism are designated the focus areas for which the SCO was formed. Though not specifically stated in their organizing documents, it is clear the group aims to reduce U.S. influence in resource-rich (as in energy) Central Asia. Not surprisingly, the United States was rejected for membership. The SCO is a challenge to Western interests; an alliance created to counter U.S. influence. Some observers have viewed it as a Warsaw-Pact like organization.

Fortunately for the West, not all is pure harmony in the organization. While Russia would like India to join, China wants Pakistan. Good for us – for the moment. Iran enjoys participation/observer status in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)

One of the strategies of the SCO is to create an oil and gas club similar to OPEC – as well as technology and other entities. Being wooed for membership is Turkmenistan, a nation trying to dip a toe in both giants’ camps – the U.S. and the SCO. Recognizing the friendship with Washington on the one hand, yet realizing regional affiliations may be beneficial. Russia (Putin – Gazprom) wants an energy cartel in the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) – naturally under its guidance. Turkmenistan could be an important producer. If Putin wants something, it is worth the U.S. to take note.

China also has a strategy.

In the report “Unrestricted Warfare” by Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui, two officers in the Chinese military who outline a strategy to undermine a vastly superior super power – the US – offer the following thoughts: “When we suddenly realize that all these non-war actions (using the media, exploiting society trends, economics, cyber threats, political persuasion, financial instruments) may be the new factors constituting future warfare, we have to come up with a new name for this new form of war: warfare which transcends all boundaries and limits, in short: unrestricted warfare. Some might think of it as death by a thousand cuts….or attacking on a variety of targets; soft and hard.” Beijing is following the playbook extremely well. They have a map and are using it. Russia must have gotten a sneak peak!

And the U.S. is doing what to counter this?

Protect assets

Russia considers anything on, through or near its pipelines, or a threat to its interests as either sovereign territory or fair game regardless of the country involved. Georgia received a rude wake-up call in 2008 when the Russian Army invaded it. Just a touch of the stick to remind small neighbors who look toward Washington for friendship that thousands of miles is a long distance for the cavalry to arrive. Whether the threat of calling in the paper Russia holds in U.S. assets, the cyber threat, dangling their influence over Iran, or garnering global outcries against the West when the U.S. or other countries act in a way counter to the benefit of Moscow – nothing is off the table and we would do well to remember that.

Russia is picking up customers across the planet – from Venezuela to Vietnam. Russia is one of the major arms dealers in the world. Want to know what weapons are killing U.S. soldiers in the Middle East? Many have “made in Russia” on them. But the cash that such sales generate is only a fraction of the value being an arms dealer, especially to the rogues and state sponsors of terror affords. It provides access and allows influence. Weapons – low tech and advanced ones are the ultimate commodity to terrorists, insurgents and pirates require and demand.

Grow an economy

Perhaps the sign of a growing economy is the number of Ferrari franchises moving into an area. Let’s call it the Ferrari factor. Would it surprise anyone to learn Russia and China attract the high ticket purveyors from watches to wardrobes to watercraft and other toys for the rich? While the poor always remain poor, they are less poor under Putin than his predecessors. Having natural resources is only one part of the play. Commercializing them and developing the economic infrastructure are critical. Moscow is no longer grey, it glitters – well, parts of it do. And with the creation of a new generation of millionaires is the development of regions worthy of their attention; all these align to regenerate a variety of industries from hospitality and so much more.

Let me be cheeky and suggest that building missiles creates jobs – giving cash for clunkers only recycles a shrinking amount of spendable money. Russia understands this – they drill, baby, drill, they build weapons, and they make or buy things –.not services. Our bailout dollars have not bought the average tax payer much in benefit. And those executives bailed out have made a mockery out of the process. I’m reminded of the cartoon after WWI where a German soldier amputee is begging for change while the aristocrats head over to the restaurant in mink and jewels.

Conduct commerce

It has been said that nations build alliances, not friendships. Mutual interests or shared jealousy only go so far – it still is a supply and demand world. And much of the developing world increasingly demands weapons. Weapons are something Russia supplies very, very well. The U.S., of course, is no rookie in the arms industry but we would do well to keep an eye on the nation customers of Moscow’s military industrial complex – where weapons go, so grows influence. “Money makes the world go round” was a song often sung to emphasize the economic imperative on global events. Putin, Inc also realize their most valuable exports are weapons and energy, as well as technological and cyber expertise, even cold cash to buy things – like South Beach, Brighton Beach, parts of New York City, and the list goes on.

Now let’s look at the U.S. Why should we care what Russia does if we are all one world? Maybe because at the end of the day there are a finite number of people with whom we can do large scale business. Commerce is usually not between adversaries but between allies – allies of convenience if not affinity – and we are being outplayed in the “collect allies” game. Maybe it is because Russia has been following the playbook how to undermine a super power – not being one when Putin ascended, he is now well on his way undermining our interests – perhaps death by a thousand cuts, but nevertheless a concerted effort to counter our influence. We need to turn the table on Moscow, not acquiesce as has been the recent game plan.

With unemployment, outsourcing and a teetering economy, the U.S. needs to increase our commerce. The U.S. needs to build and sell things again. Great nations are only great when they have strong economies, the population enjoys available work that can provide a promising quality of life for the citizenry, build and sell things, have domestic security with the rule of law and the ability to defend against the bad guys before they enter the borders.

If we had to fight WWII today, the U.S. would have to outsource much of the enterprise. This is not a good way to be.

Does the U.S. have a global policy or are we “winging it?” Are we bumbling along much like the giant in Gulliver’s travels? Let’s compare and contrast the strategic moves of Obama’s U.S. and Putin’s Russia. Being obsequious is not a strategy. True there is no reason to be bellicose when diplomacy can be utilized, but there’s also no reason to let our guard down either. While it is more likely that pawns will be used to disrupt our interests – we would do well to follow the ruble and follow the tentacles from Moscow to see where the game is being played.

Consider the reality that we have been outplayed literally across the globe from the North Pole and Arctic, to Central Asia, the Pacific Rim, the Middle East and Mediterranean regions. Since a new administration took over, a variety of disquieting events have taken place, and should give us clear pause to revisit the question: can this administration lead the United States amidst a world of global threats? Will liberal, “one world” ideologies compromise the sovereignty of our national interests worldwide?

But there are simple strategies we can employ, if we have the will.

First – Energy is the name of the game. No nation thrives without it. Throughout contemporary history wars have been fought over resources, not the least of which is petroleum. The U.S. needs to get away from the zero sum mentality, as if drilling for oil in the Arctic is tantamount to killing the planet. We can go green and still redevelop an industry, create jobs, tap into our natural resources. We not only can but we must! It is unlikely the entire enterprise known as the U.S. economy can be transitioned from petroleum based – oil, LNG, coal, gas – to eco-friendly ones overnight. Alternative fuels or technologies and the ability to protect the planet while weaning us off fossil fuels is a worthy goal but currently not practical and likely to fail or at least bankrupt small and midsized businesses. We should work toward those goals of fiscally sound, widely usable alternative energy. But with unemployment rising and a viable area of exploration known to house enough resources to help the U.S. become freer if not completely free of OPEC, we are foolish to squander such an opportunity. The U.S. needs to employ people, build things, become energy independent and even increase our exports. Can you think of a better investment, especially if the U.S. government is going to deficit spend our great grandchildren into debt? Why not put the trillions into an enterprise that, at the end of the day is a new industry? The Arctic is one of the last great frontiers and we own a piece of it. Let’s develop it in an environmentally sound manner – given much of the north central and northeastern U.S. have high unemployment – cold weather acclimated folks might just want a job.

Second – If we want to fight a war on terror, let’s stop the folks who are arming them. One could argue Israel has been more effective at keeping Russia from selling Iran an advanced missile defense system to protect its nuclear program than the U.S. has been. If Russia really cares about fighting that war against terror with the community of nations – then stop helping and arming the rogues.

Third – Get a map and use it. When in doubt, just check the frequent flier destinations of Putin & Company.

Fourth - Stay the course. Good will and aid go a long way when you are there for the long haul, not the short and quick fix. Haiti is a good example of a long term enterprise – and in both humanitarian “feel good” and strategic value having a greater foothold in the region – the U.S. should ensure rebuilding the nation. We need to keep our friends closer than we have.

Conclusion

The last few weeks commemorates events that should serve as cautionary for the U.S. – NATO pushing closer and closer to Russia, Russia reminding Europe that heat is in Moscow’s hands, Putin, Inc is spreading influence in all continents, especially focusing on our back yard and targeting our allies if not friends, and a stealth fighter test flight demonstrating a desire for if not complete capacity to develop advance weapons.

The U.S., like other leaders of the pack, should expect competition and attempts to unseat it as top dog. But are we prepared? Do our leaders even care? Some would argue Russia is only leading the way for what most have been nudged towards in the ultimate stealth war – socialism on a global scale; do our leaders willingly or unwittingly play into this? For the sake of our economy, our sovereignty and our security, I hope not.

It is not too late. We are still a powerful and respected nation. We remain a beacon of hope and a source of inspiration for people the world over. Our nation is looked upon as a rescuer to the oppressed. Just think Haiti. We are generous and compassionate. The first on scene in times of global crisis. But the clock is ticking. We cannot apologize for who we are, nor should we. Greatness is not a flaw. But as Putin has demonstrated so impressively – his leadership has positioned a flawed nation into global leadership. Do we have a leader who can do the same for our nation? Is there one on the horizon? Bush had Rove as his “architect.” Russia has theirs. Who do we have? While we answer that question, we face the rise of a new Soviet Union.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.5478/pub_detail.asp

Russianlynxy

03-01-2010, 08:16 PM

LineDoggie

03-01-2010, 08:23 PM

Never heard of FSM's site until now.

CaptMorgan68

03-01-2010, 08:27 PM

Never heard of FSM's site until now.

great website

TheGaffer

03-01-2010, 08:44 PM

That was a nice interesting read, I like the last part in which it urges the US to toughen up.

CARL GUSTAV

03-01-2010, 09:12 PM

Was watching the closing cerimonies for the Olympics last night and they had a do regarding for 2014 games in Russia. There was a part that showed a statue on a man and women. The man was holding a hammer and the woman had a sickle. The symbol of USSR? or is it considered russian as well? Just found it strange.

CaptMorgan68

03-01-2010, 09:16 PM

JPBaz

03-01-2010, 09:40 PM

Well they certainly drew the line between who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are.

Made it pretty clear that a successful Russia is against the interests of the US, AND the rest of the civilized world for that matter.

And then they ask why Russia is paranoid and distrustful?

Although I agree that the idea of good guys vs bad guys is not productive, care to argue against any of the points made? Putin and friends intentions? This is an honest question, not an attempt to bait you.

One of the biggest weakness the US has as a nation is the inability to play the long game. Our national planning and foreign policy is limited by the next election cycle. Russia and China do not have this limitation. Both countries clearly see the US as their major adversary and opponent (evident in recent comments about the US dollar in international trade). Neither country can confront the US right now but a strategy of a thousand cuts and waiting for the US to sell itself to the lowest bidder seems like a long term plan with a good chance of success.

I agree, its time for the US to toughen up and take care of #1. I am not saying this with the goal of crushing Rodnia and the PRC. I have no argument with the Russian and Chinese people and their right of self determination. I am just concerned when the development is at the expense of the long term viability of the US and in the apparent strategy to confront US interests at every turn. Examples being, arming Iran, supporting Saddam, access to Afghanistan, North Korea, exchange rates, Venezuela, and the list goes on.

Russia may have historical reasons to be paranoid of US intentions and I would say the US unfortunately has current reasons to exercise much care in its relationship with Russia.

This article obviously has a political bias (fear of a Russian led SOCIALIST takeover :roll:) but an interesting read nevertheless.

Banko

03-01-2010, 09:57 PM

Interesting but this writer is obviously biased and shrugs off all good regarding Russia.

He uses his writing like he is stating facts and sadly most people would believe every word.

Especially with how he says Georgia was invaded.

CRAZY MERC

03-01-2010, 10:07 PM

WOW. What a great example of poor journalism. Incredibly stupid and weak.

JPBaz

03-01-2010, 10:25 PM

The Rise Of The New Soviet Union: The ‘Architect’? Putin!

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6112/253russiannewbombersffe.jpg

[/URL]

Nice edit, pouring gas on a fire....

void

03-02-2010, 12:19 AM

Nice edit, pouring gas on a fire....

I find it amusing that consistently every single "Russia is evil" article is prefaced with a picture of an angry/scowling Putin.

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 12:19 AM

It will be a long long time before Russia becomes a Soviet Union.

And besides, China has taken the No2 spot now.

void

03-02-2010, 12:29 AM

Bah, after reading the full article properly, I think it serves as an excellent example of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy amongst certain Western journalists/analysts. Evil Russia invaded in a sneak attack peaceful democratic Georgia, cut off gas supplies to poor starving/freezing school children in Ukraine, build a stealth fighter (how DARE they!), is looking for good relations with NATO countries (oh how evil of them), etc etc.

Mousepad

03-02-2010, 12:34 AM

I find it amusing that consistently every single "Russia is evil" article is prefaced with a picture of an angry/scowling Putin.

Don't forget his qoutes ripped out of context.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 12:40 AM

I find it amusing that consistently every single "Russia is evil" article is prefaced with a picture of an angry/scowling Putin.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1843/034560putin.jpg

are you happy now?)

skyrock

03-02-2010, 12:43 AM

In the foreseeable futre:

A new Soviet Union? Not likely.
A rivalry between Russia and America? Undoubtedly.

Synthe

03-02-2010, 12:48 AM

In the foreseeable futre:

A rivalry between Russia and America? Undoubtedly.

Can you explain why there needs to be a rivalry between them??

Mr.K

03-02-2010, 12:53 AM

Where is that simpson's "soviet union" clip?:)

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 12:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrqcUeTcmH4

skyrock

03-02-2010, 01:01 AM

Can you explain why there needs to be a rivalry between them??

The alpha dog will always watch out potential alpha dogs.

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 01:05 AM

It will be a long long time before Russia becomes a Soviet Union.

And besides, China has taken the No2 spot now.

China's got mad money, this can change at any time really. Once the demand for Chinese labor drops or economics naturally work themselves into the average peons working at sweatshops in China into actually making a decent buck. (not so cheap anymore):roll:

Other than that they hardly lead in anything else. Technology? Only what they are able to snatch and re-engineer. Science? Again, no. Space? Lagging behind the rest. Occasionally the US or Russia take them for a ride.

They have a huge population and lots of money, this equates to fast growth, but also makes China very vulnerable and unstable.

Back on Topic: This article is kind of baseless and on the borderline of whining (bezsilnaya zloba). I love the part with the T-50 the best. The cold war is supposed to be over so Russia shouldn't have a military...

SevernayA

03-02-2010, 01:17 AM

skyrock

03-02-2010, 01:18 AM

China's got mad money......
Other than that they hardly lead in anything else. Technology? Only what they are able to snatch and re-engineer. Science? Again, no. Space? Lagging behind the rest. Occasionally the US or Russia take them for a ride.

Soviet Union was a great nation in many aspects. Unfortunately her achievements created megalomania complex among her subjects. Today's Russia lags behind China in many technology fields. For example, among the top 10 super computers in the world, 9 are made by America, the other one (ranked No. 5) is made by China. If Russians don't wake up in their dreams, Russia will remain mainly a raw material exporter for quite a while.

Holycrusader

03-02-2010, 01:36 AM

I like the part about PAK FA
"Pak Fa = cold war weapon. Why Russia need them?" LOL

skyrock

03-02-2010, 01:56 AM

Russia was a major power for hundreds of years prior to the Soviet Union, and not to mention was the most powerful country on the planet unquestionably shortly after the defeat of Napoleon. Why do people have to bring up this 'return of the soviet union' rubbish? I mean, I understand that a bit of hyperbole draws in the readers but the author of this article supposedly has a doctorate. It's shocking.

Russia might be a world power right after defeating Napoleon, but she was still considered a backward country, culturally and technologically, more like the mongols in the European eyes. On the other hand, Soviet Union was indeed a leading country, at least for a short time -- the first country that launched satellite, the first country that sent human into space, which directly waked up Americans who came back up with Moon landings years later.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 01:59 AM

Russia might be a world power right after defeating Napoleon, but she was still considered a backward country, culturally and technologically, more like the mongols in the European eyes. On the other hand, Soviet Union was indeed a leading country, at least for a short time -- the first country that launched satellite, the first country that sent human into space, which directly waked up Americans who came back up with Moon landings years later.

FYI

"In the 10th to 11th centuries Kievan Rus' became the largest and most prosperous state in Europe.[52] The reigns of Vladimir the Great (980–1015) and his son Yaroslav I the Wise (1019–1054) constitute the Golden Age of Kiev, which saw the acceptance of Orthodox Christianity from Byzantium and the creation of the first East Slavic written legal code, the Russkaya Pravda."

and if it wasn't for the Mongols:

"In the 11th and 12th centuries, constant incursions by nomadic Turkic tribes, such as the Kipchaks and the Pechenegs, caused a massive migration of Slavic populations to the safer, heavily forested regions of the north, particularly to the area known as Zalesye.[53] The age of feudalism and decentralization had come, marked by constant in-fighting between members of the princely family that ruled Kievan Rus' collectively. Kiev's dominance waned, to the benefit of Vladimir-Suzdal in the north-east, Novgorod in the north-west and Galicia-Volhynia in the south-west.

Ultimately Kievan Rus' disintegrated, with the final blow being the Mongol invasion of 1237–1240,[54] that resulted in the destruction of Kiev[55] and the death of about a half of total population of Rus'.[56] The invaders, later known as Tatars, formed the state of the Golden Horde, which pillaged the Russian principalities and ruled the southern and central expanses of Russia for over three centuries, impeding the country's economic and social development.[57]"

Russia could have been the largest and most prosperous state in Europa a long time ago .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia#Kievan_Rus.27

skyrock

03-02-2010, 02:02 AM

FYI

"In the 10th to 11th centuries Kievan Rus' became the largest and most prosperous state in Europe.[52] The reigns of Vladimir the Great (980–1015) and his son Yaroslav I the Wise (1019–1054) constitute the Golden Age of Kiev, which saw the acceptance of Orthodox Christianity from Byzantium and the creation of the first East Slavic written legal code, the Russkaya Pravda.

Kievan Rus was the largest and most prosperous state in Europe in the 10th to 11th centuries? Better than Byzantium at that time? I don't buy it.

JBH22

03-02-2010, 02:08 AM

the U.S. is mired in numerous domestic and global challenges,We are still a powerful and respected nation. We remain a beacon of hope and a source of inspiration US is mired because of whom?ussia is again protrayed as the bad and i don't understand if Putin wants to restore the pride and power of its country is it a bad thing or because it challenges the incumbent superpower.. As usual the crappy style article gives the solution to stop the menacing bear :)
well godd there's internet now otherwise i would always form my ideas on crappy and sh!*** articles like that

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 02:08 AM

Kievan Rus was the largest and most prosperous state in Europe? Better than Byzantium? I don't buy it.

Byzantium was pretty much done with at that point.... they passed their legacy onto Moscow... since Byzantium was a successor to Rome you can sometime hear Russia referred to as the 'Third Rome'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

At the beginning, the notion of "Third Rome" was not necessarily imperial in nature, but rather apocalyptic. Its purpose was to point out the role of Russia as the last small remainder "in the wilderness", of the once-great Christian civilization, most of which had succumbed to heresy - Roman Catholicism was considered a heretical offshoot of the Christian stem by many Orthodox believers. Thus Russia was seen as comparable to the seven thousand Israelites who had refused to worship Baal during the lifetime of the prophet Elijah, an immensely popular biblical figure in Orthodoxy.

The idea crystallized with a panegyric letter composed by the Russian monk Philoteus (Filofey) in 1510 to their son Grand Duke Vasili III, which proclaimed, "Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. And there will be no fourth. No one shall replace your Christian Tsardom!" Contrary to the common misconception, Filofey explicitly identifies Third Rome with Russia (the country) rather than with Moscow (the city).

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 02:09 AM

Russia might be a world power right after defeating Napoleon, but she was still considered a backward country, culturally and technologically, more like the mongols in the European eyes.
Russia was cultural powerhouse of Europe along with France in the 19th century, and with a population slightly bigger than France at this point (only overtook France in 1795), was technologically advanced enough to be the preeminent power in the world.

Kievan Rus was the largest and most prosperous state in Europe? Better than Byzantium? I don't buy it.

Hur dur, read the source, US State Department http://www.state.gov/t/pm/64851.htm

skyrock

03-02-2010, 02:14 AM

Byzantium was pretty much done with at that point.... they passed their legacy onto Moscow... since Byzantium was a successor to Rome you can sometime hear Moscow referred to as the 'Third Rome' although if it wasn't for the Mongols it would have been Kiev...

No, Byzantium was over in 15th centuries. Without your reminder, I had known Russia called herself the successor of Byzantium, and I had also known the Russian king made that statement because he married a princess of Byzantium.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 02:14 AM

Russia was cultural powerhouse of Europe along with France in the 19th century, and was technologically advanced enough to be the preeminent power in the world.

Hur dur, read the source, US State Department http://www.state.gov/t/pm/64851.htm

It sure did outlast the British Empire in the Great Game....

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 02:16 AM

No, Byzantium was over in 15th centuries. Without your reminder, I had known Russia called herself the successor of Byzantium, and I had also known the Russian king made that statement because he married a princess of Byzantium.

He didn't just marry her. She was given to him as a bride by the supposedly mighty byzantium which was done with as a power at that point.... the Kievan Rus was much stronger and in the position to actually dictate to Byzantium... rest of Europe was going through the fun inquisition years of the middle ages after which it required a couple of centuries of therapy in the form of Renaissance....

SevernayA

03-02-2010, 02:18 AM

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 02:19 AM

Russia was considered to be 'wild' prior to Russia's engagement with European affairs. After Peter the Great, the idea of Russia being 'mongolian' in nature become more of a derogative suggestion rather than a consensus among European intelligentsia.
You nailed it.

Brasi

03-02-2010, 02:22 AM

Can you explain why there needs to be a rivalry between them??

I agree with this. It seems like there are people in the background who yearn for the cold war days when the Soviet Union and U.S.A. tossed trillions of dollars into defense spending while all other domestic programs went by the wayside. If it's not the former Soviet Union being portrayed as a new evil empire, than it should be the Chinese military causing us mass paranoia.

Lets face it, those days are gone forever and neither Russia or the USA can afford a repeat of the past. Sure the Chinese or even the Indians can do their own little cold war build up, but they risk running into the same problems we are having; crippling debt, decaying civil infastructure, and overextension of their forces.

skyrock

03-02-2010, 02:23 AM

Culturally backward? Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Chekov,Tesla, Tolstoy, Mendeleev, Dostoevsky etc the list goes on and on. Russia was considered to be 'wild' prior to Russia's engagement with European affairs. After Peter the Great, the idea of Russia being 'mongolian' in nature become more of a derogative suggestion rather than a consensus among European intelligentsia.

Did I say "right after defeating Napoleon? Had Tolstoy been born at that time, or how old was he? You can list many names as you want, but please stay in context.

SevernayA

03-02-2010, 02:24 AM

No, Byzantium was over in 15th centuries. Without your reminder, I had known Russia called herself the successor of Byzantium, and I had also known the Russian king made that statement because he married a princess of Byzantium.
Check out this gif, byzantium become smaller and weaker, by the year 1200 it was slightly bigger than Greece today. By the 15th century, it was minuscule.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Byzantine_Empire_animated2.gif

Switek

03-02-2010, 02:25 AM

The main question is how a country with Mexican size economy but in worse shape by level and age of technology applied wants to come back to first league? Current Russian advantages aren't forever and are, in fact the most dangerous weaknesses... Seems that some Russian leaders are mentally in 20th century in cold war period and don't get what's happening in the world nowadays...

skyrock

03-02-2010, 02:26 AM

Check out this gif, byzantium become smaller and weaker, by the year 1200 it was slightly bigger than Greece today. By the 15th century, it was minuscule.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Byzantine_Empire_animated2.gif

byzantium was till quite big in 10th and 11th centuries, wasn't it?

SevernayA

03-02-2010, 02:28 AM

The main question is how a country with Mexican size economy but in worse shape by level and age of technology applied wants to come back to first league?
Russia's technologically behind Mexico? wat?

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 02:29 AM

skyrock

03-02-2010, 02:34 AM

I think that Russia's leaders very well recognise Russia's problems as statements have shown, but they have difficulty figuring out how to solve these problems.

It it hard for the leaders to admit they lag behind, otherwise the Russian Strong MPers will tear them apart :)

BYW, I am fully aware of Russia's potential as I said in my earlier posts. However, Russia's biggest enemy is Russian themselves. You can see that from how suddenly the debate got heat up after I threw in some candid comments.

Anyway, time to sleep now for me.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 02:47 AM

SevernayA

03-02-2010, 02:48 AM

It it hard for the leaders to admit they lag behind, otherwise the Russian Strong MPers will tear them apart

BYW, I am fully aware of Russia's potential as I said in my earlier posts. However, Russia's biggest enemy is Russian themselves. You can see that from how suddenly the debate got heat up after I threw in some candid comments.

Anyway, time to sleep now for me
I think Medvedev himself wrote an essay and published it a few months ago listing all of Russia's problems... but ok

Jurinko

03-02-2010, 02:53 AM

Hopefully, this time our country will stay on the other side of iron curtain.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 02:57 AM

Hopefully, this time our country will stay on the other side of iron curtain.

no communism this time.. no need for ideological divides and berlin walls.. france just spoke out in favor of visa free EU-Russia regime... so it's not quite the same...

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 02:59 AM

Other than that they hardly lead in anything else. Technology? Only what they are able to snatch and re-engineer. Science? Again, no. Space? Lagging behind the rest. Occasionally the US or Russia take them for a ride.

And the what China is doing now is similar to what the SU was doing in the 40's, 50's and further. Reverse engineering technology through a massive industrial esponiage program. And they will catch up, throwing money and manpower into the formula. Time is on their side, and they will be copying both Russian and Western hardware. Like it or not, China will become THE eurasian power.

Switek

03-02-2010, 03:00 AM

more like 19th century with a mix of 20th) like they say in Russia 'everything new is the very well forgotten old'

Only the real enemy of current Russia would wish reestablishing of Soviet Union. It will be waste of resources which should spend on urgently needed modernization and strengthen of state administration and fighting crime.

This ambition will be catastrophic.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 03:03 AM

Only the real enemy of current Russia would wish reestablishing of Soviet Union. It will be waste of resources which should spend on urgently needed modernization and strengthen of state administration and fighting crime.

This ambition will be catastrophic.

it's not about forming rigid alliances or state structures a la USSR.... there's no need to support some crazy marxist ideology and it's not about ideology anyways.... it's a diff ballgame more reminiscent of 19th century....

and btw guess what was Polish youths' most favorite disco tune last year? the wykurwisty zajebisty hit - Volna by Russian DJ Smash)))) so there you have it.. it is different)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpZ37XXwXdA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpZ37XXwXdA&fmt=18)

void

03-02-2010, 03:32 AM

Don't forget his qoutes ripped out of context.

Yeah, the whole "the collapse of the soviet union is one of the greatest geopolitical tragedies of the 20th century" is an often used quote to prove some russophobic point which COMPLETELY misses the whole context of the quote. Putin with that quote was referring to the effect the collapse had on the FSU countries, the resulting poverty, lawlessness, MASSIVE decrease in life expectancy, etc. As opposed to loss of empire or something.

Switek

03-02-2010, 03:38 AM

@CM68

Fortunately Polish youth looks at Russia and current culture without prejudices... I'm actually reading 'Vsye spsosbniye nosit oruzhye" by Andryey Lazarchuk. ;)

armored_diplomacy

03-02-2010, 04:47 AM

- A little bit "biased" article, but interesting.

- "Want to know what weapons are killing U.S. soldiers in the Middle East? Many have “made in Russia” on them" (surely Saudi / Pakistany / "others" money and manpower has nothing to do ... )

- Putin took a devastated country and gave it its pride back and a seat in the main wolrd board. I wouldn´t like to live under Putin´s regime, but that is something you have to acknowledge about him.

Russian_dude

03-02-2010, 05:21 AM

Empires need ideologies. Russia's ideology is getting rich, not planting "flags". Ukraine didn't pay bills... it got it's gas turned off. Chineses are hated or feared by all the other Asians and they will coagulate around China in a single defence block. We are heading to a multipolar world, not China no1, or USSR FTW, or American Reich etc.

Ataman

03-02-2010, 06:14 AM

Switek

03-02-2010, 06:18 AM

Why? I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

Would you provide us some proofs backing your statement?

void

03-02-2010, 06:29 AM

Would you provide us some proofs backing your statement?

Would YOU like to provide some examples of day to day life where Putin somehow stifles your freedom (if you were living in Russia).

Bifrost

03-02-2010, 06:31 AM

An extremely biased article. Change US to Germany - it will sound like goebbels himself wrote it.
Wondering if it ain't the chinese who fuel this kind of crap. After the gas part and T-50 part, was waiting for - "they eat babies". The part about the weapons killing americans being made by russians is some real hatred crap.
It would have been best no to publish this rubbish, cause it's nothing then a flaim bait. The topic will eventually fall into another mp net russia evil / west good failed topic. With some usual red team fanboys getting their infractions by stupid and provoced posts.. Just like our Ataman fellow above.

sepheronx

03-02-2010, 06:35 AM

Soviet Union was a great nation in many aspects. Unfortunately her achievements created megalomania complex among her subjects. Today's Russia lags behind China in many technology fields. For example, among the top 10 super computers in the world, 9 are made by America, the other one (ranked No. 5) is made by China. If Russians don't wake up in their dreams, Russia will remain mainly a raw material exporter for quite a while.

What? Are you even trying to kid us or just yourself?

China does not make microprocessors, unless you count Motorola ones. Russia on the other hand makes super computer processors, and next to USA, there are not many countries that do that. Not to mention T-platforms.

Skyrock, whomever is giving you information, is taking you for a long ride.

Not to mention, technological development in Russia is far greater then that in China, for instance Roscosmos builds more and does more in tech industry then the Chinese space agency, then there is Russia's defense agency as well.

Let me just say, Russia is one of the leading countries in technological R&D, especially that in Easter Europe.

Edit: This article is a joke, and to those who think China is second...

Just because Russia does not have a billion people to work for cheap, and does not make as much money, does not make them weak. They have the second largest form of "political leg pulling" next to USA, and still has a large industry in tech development. They have a large army (nowhere near that of Soviet union, but...) and still one of, if not, largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. There are problems indeed with some equipment and other issues, but one issue at a time. Surprising how quick they where able to get on their feet again, after having such a disastrous decade called the 90's.

Switek

03-02-2010, 06:56 AM

Would YOU like to provide some examples of day to day life where Putin somehow stifles your freedom (if you were living in Russia).

I asked civil question in polite way and expect an honest answer. Answering by asking irrelevant question is in bad taste.. I'd like to know whar personal freedoms in Russia are superior those what American citizens have. If you can't help in answering would you be so kind and keep your mouths shut.

Thank you.

Spezz

03-02-2010, 07:10 AM

And the what China is doing now is similar to what the SU was doing in the 40's, 50's and further. Reverse engineering technology through a massive industrial esponiage program. And they will catch up, throwing money and manpower into the formula. Time is on their side, and they will be copying both Russian and Western hardware. Like it or not, China will become THE eurasian power.
I don't think you can just make that prediction that easily. SU's scientific advances were not all through espionage and reverse engineering, in fact SU has produced many of the brightest scinetists out there and in a number of technological areas the SU was the leader. Sure none of these barriers are insurmountable but wether "time is on their side" is debatable. I don't think that china can keep its advantage of cheap labour and the massive profits that result from that to keep up the momentum. They have more than a billion mouths to feed after all. The average joe won't put up with being exploited forever when he sees the minority become millionaires or billionaries. So one of two thigs will happen: workers demand to get paid more thus reducing the cheap labor advantage of China or they just get fed up with it and some serious **** goes down.

Afro-European

03-02-2010, 08:37 AM

What an amateuristic,paranoia filled piece fof propaganda!!!

Snoshi

03-02-2010, 09:00 AM

Why? I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

Umm.. Are you really really sure? Btw how does Germany rank in your "freedom" table?

xzx

03-02-2010, 09:44 AM

NATO and EU are much more suitable candidates for the New USSR role than Russia.

Mr.K

03-02-2010, 10:44 AM

NATO and EU are much more suitable candidates for the New USSR role than Russia.

With the current economic and financial situation in EU, it looks like "perestroika" in EU is bound to happen :)
NATO is a Warsaw Pact that acutally makes other countries fight in Afghanistan :)

skyrock

03-02-2010, 11:51 AM

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 11:54 AM

I said China makes the 5th fastest super computer in the world, and America makes the rest in the top 10. Go to the following site, see it yourself, click the No.5 on the left of the web page.
http://www.top500.org/system/10186

Oh yeah, Russia makes super computer chips :) can you find any Russian supercomputer on the top 10 list?

China produces them, not actually involved in the R&D process, just like anything else. Goods are simply assembled in China.

skyrock

03-02-2010, 12:04 PM

China produces them, not actually involved in the R&D process, just like anything else. Goods are simply assembled in China.

The maker of that Chinese super computer is a defense technology university (NUDT). It is not assembly, otherwise any country can make top 10 super computers, because after all, most super computers use commercially available components such as cpu, fast connection switches etc.

xzx

03-02-2010, 12:26 PM

The maker of that Chinese super computer is a defense technology university (NUDT). It is not assembly, otherwise any country can make top 10 super computers, because after all, most super computers use commercially available components such as cpu, fast connection switches etc.

Yes it is assembly, and yes any country can make top 10 super computer by just buying enough Intel EM64T Xeon E55xx (Nehalem-EP) 2530 MHz (10.12 GFlops) chips that Chinese supercomputer is using. Even Mongolia can do that if they spend their yearly budget. And Russian supercomputer on 12 place in that rating.

On the other hand Russia can produce CPU chips comparable to latest Intel in performance. Something that China can only dream about. So who is lagging behind whom?

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 12:31 PM

Yes it is assembly, and yes any country can make top 10 super computer by just buying enough Intel EM64T Xeon E55xx (Nehalem-EP) 2530 MHz (10.12 GFlops) chips that Chinese supercomputer is using. Even Mongolia can do that if they spend their yearly budget. And Russian supercomputer on 12 place in that rating.

On the other hand Russia can produce CPU chips comparable to latest Intel in performance. Something that is China can only dream about. So who is lagging behind whom?

qft.

Since we are on a military forum, Russia's newest weapon and defense platforms indicate this capability. Most of China's "indigenous" platforms are a replication of either Russian or European contemporaries, when it has the access to the technology involved.

China has a high production margin, I'll give them that. Partly because their population is ridiculously large (Classical Economic Growth Theory), and also because Investment in the Chinese economy in the 90s from outside was much higher than Russia's was. Ever.

Snoshi

03-02-2010, 12:32 PM

On the other hand Russia can produce CPU chips comparable to latest Intel in performance. Something that China can only dream about. So who is lagging behind whom?

Hmm. You got a source for that? And how many computers use these Russian CPU's?

Kutuz

03-02-2010, 12:35 PM

Russia needs a stronger economy to be a superpower.

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 12:36 PM

Hmm. You got a source for that? And how many computers use these Russian CPU's?

Russia indeed does have a good production of processors, mostly used for military needs. Russia does not specialize in the production of personal computers, companies like INTEL and AMD already have monopoly in that market, no competitive advantage for Russian-made processors here. Plus the direction of their development is different anyway.

armored_diplomacy

03-02-2010, 12:39 PM

Why? I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

Forgive me if I´m wrong. I am under the impression that civil liberties may not be as strong as in other western countries.

xzx

03-02-2010, 12:40 PM

Hmm. You got a source for that? And how many computers use these Russian CPU's?

That was discussed already in PAKFA thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) They are used mostly in military.

Snoshi

03-02-2010, 12:41 PM

Russia indeed does have a good production of processors, mostly used for military needs. Russia does not specialize in the production of personal computers, companies like INTEL and AMD already have monopoly in that market, no competitive advantage for Russian-made processors here. Plus the direction of their development is different anyway.

If they chips would be comparable to Intel or AMD then you would see these computers in Russia or Russia friendly countries.. So far i havent see a single "Russian" computer on the market.

xzx

03-02-2010, 12:52 PM

Solvent

03-02-2010, 12:52 PM

Russia strong, or crude oil strong maybe

SU again? Not likely.

KoTeMoRe

03-02-2010, 12:58 PM

I see dead horses!

Snoshi

03-02-2010, 01:03 PM

http://www.mcst.ru/b_6-7.shtml

You can buy one here. rofl

300 Mhz processor? No thank you!

intelligenzija

03-02-2010, 01:05 PM

Forgive me if I´m wrong. I am under the impression that civil liberties may not be as strong as in other western countries.

If you have money you can enjoy liberty like nowhere rofl But at the same time you should not get into the way of powerful characters as Chodorovsky's case showed :D

xzx

03-02-2010, 01:10 PM

300 Mhz processor? No thank you!

You are one of those who will buy 1Ghz Intel Core 2 CPU that can do 4 operations per Hz instead of 300 Mhz Elbrus that performs 23 operations per Hz rofl

Mr.K

03-02-2010, 01:22 PM

Forgive me if I´m wrong. I am under the impression that civil liberties may not be as strong as in other western countries.

Depends. Protesting against government less than in the west ( For me it's a big joke, yes you can yell BUSH IS A NAZI, did it change anything?..), but you're less likely to get a tickets or fines, or administrative fees, also 13% flat tax rate, personally i'm against it, but that clearly gives you more freedom of what you want to do with your money instead of giving half of it to the various levels of government.
What is freedom if you have no means of doing things you want to do.

Stonewall71

03-02-2010, 01:24 PM

13% Tax :(

Chimera

03-02-2010, 01:32 PM

Secondly, Russia has just completed a test flight on their new stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T 50. Why does a country that decries cold war mentality build a cold war weapon?

To counter the F-35 cold war weapon?

And I thought they were making the PAK FA to earn a living on export and protect the gigantic size of the country with an air superiority fighter.

It is likely when the Russian T 50 is fully developed ; Putin suggests 2015, which means in a couple years or less in Moscow speak, quite a few customers will be waiting.

Unlike the F35.

To be sure, some military experts think it is all smoke and mirrors while others suggest it is a giant leap forward for Russia. Historically, the former might be correct

The same military experts who said the PAK FA was a myth and would not fly before 2020.

If Moscow considers the Cold War so yesterday, then why is it building weapons that are designed to counter those of the US? If terrorism is the threat, why the advanced tank, advanced interceptor missiles, advanced ballistic missiles, advanced stealth fighters, planning a new nuclear fleet including submarines and super carriers?

In what technology would they have to invest then? Getting prepared for low intensity conflicts? Where?

Considering it might be argued Russia is behind some of the evils going on in the world ; as patron, educator, enabler, financier, armorer or provocateur

What???

Russia is picking up customers across the planet; from Venezuela to Vietnam. Russia is one of the major arms dealers in the world. Want to know what weapons are killing U.S. soldiers in the Middle East? Many "have made in Russia" on them. But the cash that such sales generate is only a fraction of the value being an arms dealer, especially to the rogues and state sponsors of terror affords. It provides access and allows influence. Weapons low tech and advanced ones are the ultimate commodity to terrorists, insurgents and pirates require and demand.

Allright. That's beyond misinformation here.

With little or no reliable source to support his opinion, the guy has managed to write a masterpiece of anti Russian "article".

The last part is pure stupidity, there are NO flawless countries full of Greatness and flawed ones with all the evil of the world.

armored_diplomacy

03-02-2010, 01:38 PM

Depends. Protesting against government less than in the west ( For me it's a big joke, yes you can yell BUSH IS A NAZI, did it change anything?..), but you're less likely to get a tickets or fines, or administrative fees, also 13% flat tax rate, personally i'm against it, but that clearly gives you more freedom of what you want to do with your money instead of giving half of it to the various levels of government.
What is freedom if you have no means of doing things you want to do.

Sounds reasonable.
Thanks

Flamming_Python

03-02-2010, 01:50 PM

If they chips would be comparable to Intel or AMD then you would see these computers in Russia or Russia friendly countries.. So far i havent see a single "Russian" computer on the market.

Russia never made high quality things for personal use/consumption, such as cars, PCs, etc... but any tech required for industrial use was advanced and modern - including computer capabilities.

Kutuzov

03-02-2010, 02:07 PM

It’s not looking good right now for the good guys.That's just rich , fear mongering for American consumption nothing more.I wonder what title America will give itseld next, maybe Uber beacon of Democracy and savior of children just don't forget to bring DU rounds to spread the democracy.

Mr.K

03-02-2010, 02:15 PM

Russia never made high quality things for personal use/consumption, such as cars, PCs, etc... but any tech required for industrial use was advanced and modern - including computer capabilities.

Sadly no, on the other hand the theory of the comparative advantages states that a nation should not produce everything it needs, but should specialize in something it's good at, export it, and import the rest.

Red Templar

03-02-2010, 02:56 PM

surges sh|t on the fan ...
stronger and stronger the stench of propaganda:
"Russia = Mordor!"
"afraid of everything!"
later start:
"We need to kill these beasts!" : (
already begun ...
Poland, street, poster:
http://s004.radikal.ru/i205/1003/73/3a0c0c714d02.jpg

sadness takes .... :(

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 03:01 PM

http://s004.radikal.ru/i205/1003/73/3a0c0c714d02.jpg

thats hilarious actually. Just to show the level of maturity/intelligence of some people over there.
The sad thing about it is that the average Joe who knows nothing about politics, history, or other countries will take the message quite literally.

meant for sheeple.

Jµµso

03-02-2010, 03:12 PM

Didn't Putin say that "Only idiot would wan't to live in Soviet Union" or something similar?

Mr.K

03-02-2010, 03:17 PM

Didn't Putin say that "Only idiot would wan't to live in Soviet Union" or something similar?

No.

"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."

gazell

03-02-2010, 03:51 PM

What a grand article! I'm really sick of this russiaphobia, even though I am from a country that quite rightfully can have some of it. What have they done right now or in recent past to deserve it???

Russia might be a world power right after defeating Napoleon, but she was still considered a backward country, culturally and technologically, more like the mongols in the European eyes. On the other hand, Soviet Union was indeed a leading country, at least for a short time -- the first country that launched satellite, the first country that sent human into space, which directly waked up Americans who came back up with Moon landings years later.

Let's not confuse cold war pissing contest with civilisation and development of a particular society. At any given time.

TakeIt

03-02-2010, 04:11 PM

What is the most interesting among all else, that most criers "Russia is the new SU!" never actually visited Russia itself or lived enough there to have at least some credibility. And i'm not even touching SU itself, which is a really mythical entity to all foreigners, that know nothing exept the usual collection of themes, aimed to create a demonic image.

sepheronx

03-02-2010, 04:25 PM

300 Mhz processor? No thank you!

you sound like the morons who claimed that Pentium 4 was faster then Core Yohna and Core Duo because its MHZ was faster. communication speed is only one part of the equation, it is based on the architecture of the processor. When Core came out, in the form of Yohna, it was far better then any desktop Intel desktop processor, and it was only 1.2 ghz, compared to the 3.4 and higher ghz on the 850 and higher. Although, it was a mobile processor, its performance was amazing (Mind you, it was designed in Israel, same with Core 2 duo).

Red Templar

03-02-2010, 04:49 PM

Yesterday in Australia a shark attacked two Englishmen. British Foreign Office sent a protest note to Russia ...
lol

Hilbert

03-02-2010, 04:54 PM

Why? I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

Would you mind elaborating on this. Proof/examples would be nice.

Difool

03-02-2010, 05:04 PM

The SU is no more and the cold war is over. But some people just don't seem to have realized it.

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 05:39 PM

Edit: This article is a joke, and to those who think China is second...

Take a look at their GDP champ. And still rising no matter what.

They spend more on their military, have a massive population to educate and cherry pick from, have a far far better industrial base,
and nearly everything made on you and around is made in china.

Sorry.. I know it hurts.

KoTeMoRe

03-02-2010, 05:48 PM

Mhh...let's see. My house has Korean bricks and Belgian cement. I got a TV made in Poland, a car that has 85% of it's components made in the EU and the rest in South America, my cell phone is made in Hungary, most of my clothes are made in Honduras, Pakistan, Italy, Portugal, Germany. My running shoes, made in Thailand and Viet Nam, my shoes made in Spain, Portugal, Italy, UK and USA.

As a matter of fact the only thing I'm sure being Made in China is my...trash bin.

China is a powerhouse, just not that powerhouse.

Synthe

03-02-2010, 05:53 PM

Mhh...let's see. My house has Korean bricks and Belgian cement. I got a TV made in Poland, a car that has 85% of it's components m

I'm sorry for you that all you have is bricks, cement and a tv.

KoTeMoRe

03-02-2010, 05:56 PM

I'm sorry that you type that slow...

Synthe

03-02-2010, 05:56 PM

I'm sorry that you type that slow...

Think again.

Ataman

03-02-2010, 06:08 PM

Umm.. Are you really really sure? Btw how does Germany rank in your "freedom" table?

We're still pretty free despite politicans and EU trying very hard to change that. And since protesting is not really a German thing this process of taking away the rights is advancing slowly but steadily...

KoTeMoRe

03-02-2010, 06:10 PM

@Synthe: Read again...

Drez

03-02-2010, 06:58 PM

The rise of the new Soviet Union is going on in China - improved and more advanced version. Just let them keep going as fast as they do it now for 15-20 years.

Synthe

03-02-2010, 07:02 PM

The rise of the new Soviet Union is going on in China - improved and more advanced version. Just let them keep going as fast as they do it now for 15-20 years.

The new soviet union = NOT telling people what to do in their own country.

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 07:06 PM

Synthe

03-02-2010, 07:09 PM

Id be willing to bet most of the components in the TV and phone are made in china.

Why are you still talking to this guy??? Quite obvious for argument he won't admit he has stuff made in china.

KoTeMoRe

03-02-2010, 07:49 PM

Nope, most are made in Mexico and Netherlands. Surely cables and small parts have to be chinese. Phone wise I've already opened it, the speaker had ideograms on the side. Other than that magyar work.

To Synthe: Dude I have goods that come from China, only I'm not overwhelmed by them. It's not China everywhere. And I indeed try as much as I can to avoid bying chinese made goods when a substitute is available.

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 08:09 PM

Approx 70% of goods in Wallmart are of Chinese origin.

http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/#Wal-Mart%20and%20China

Foreign department stores probably have a similar ratio.

Robert.V

03-02-2010, 08:13 PM

Id be willing to bet most of the components in the TV and phone are made in china.

In Europe most of the components or products come from Taiwan, Malaysia, Korea, Germany, Netherlands, Mexico and Japan. It's not like in USA where everything practically from china.

We Europeans like to have a higher standard of quality. Not to say we don't have products made from China here or some components manufactured from China.

I can safely say i only have two things from china, a gamepad and one of my DVD players.

Edit

And that's why Wallmart flopped badly here.

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 08:20 PM

And I indeed try as much as I can to avoid bying chinese made goods when a substitute is available.

Myself as well.

sepheronx

03-02-2010, 08:23 PM

Kilgor, just because china's GDP is high, does not mean they are much stronger. Maybe if the concept of money wasn't based off of faith and Credit, but by the old system of what you have, then maybe. Soviet union wasn't really wealthy in the 80's. But still a major power.

JPBaz

03-02-2010, 09:41 PM

Depends. Protesting against government less than in the west ( For me it's a big joke, yes you can yell BUSH IS A NAZI, did it change anything?..),

We kicked his A** and most of his cronies in the Senate to the curb for now, that was something...

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 09:46 PM

Approx 70% of goods in Wallmart are of Chinese origin.

http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/#Wal-Mart%20and%20China

Foreign department stores probably have a similar ratio.

so what? ppl are so funny with the whoie everything is made in china argument... so what?) the only reason china has anything today is only because the US allowed it by opening up its markets to chinese goods in the late 70's just like it did before with japan... the reason it did that ws because the US was worried that Chinese could strike an alliance with the Russians... they wanted top make sure the Chinese are pulled away from SU... a classic example containment policy and divide and conquer strategy the US has been pursuing over the last half a century or so...

the products that are made in china are not a result of superior Chinese economic model and scientific R&D... the only significant economic resource china has at its disposal is cheap labour resulting from migrations from rural areas to cities that's been ongoing for the last 30 years ... China is dependent on energy imports with the only options being the Russian controlled central asia and US controlled pretty much everything else.... its shipping is threatened by the US fleet... whatever you think of Chinese army and even the Chinese navy you damn well know the US would have sunk the madafakas in no time... a land operation is a different story but in a naval engagement the US would hand China its azz... nuclear strike is not an option unless the Chinese want their country to glow at night for the next million years... their biggest problem however is the bipolar situation the country is in politically.. Chinese govt proclaims to be a strict follower of Marxist principles while the whole country is heavily involved in the booming capitalist economy with middle class growing by the day.... that's a six hudred pound gorilla in the room that's gonna go haywire should the economy take a serious hit... but even if it doesn't China will remain a joke militarily and only second or even third best until Taiwan joins the Mainland China... the US knows it.. the Russians know it... and the goddamn Chinese know it too... the only hope that China has of challenging the US dominance is through an informal alliance with another Eurasian power...

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 09:49 PM

but even if it doesn't China will remain a joke militarily and only second or even third best until Taiwan joins the Mainland China... the US knows it.. the Russians know it... the only hope that China has of challenging the US dominance is through alliance with Russia....

And its becoming more and more evident that Russia don't wanna roll like that.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 10:14 PM

And its becoming more and more evident that Russia don't wanna roll like that.

Russia is interested in such an alliance... for the time being....but it will make sure India is much more superior than China in terms of military capability.. that's the real reason why India is getting the FGFA.. not because Russia wants some Mumbai style chicken masala and a fistful of rupees...

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 10:21 PM

The rise of the new Soviet Union is going on in China - improved and more advanced version. Just let them keep going as fast as they do it now for 15-20 years.
Chinese economy is not comparable to Soviet one because it has a market economy, they abandoned the whole communism thing a while ago.

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 10:25 PM

Russia is interested in such an alliance... for the time being....but it will make sure India is much more superior than China militarily.. that's the real reason why India is getting the FGFA.. not because Russia wants some Mumbai style chicken masala and a fistful of rupees...

Yeah I completely agree with this theory. Russia is playing on the sidelines for now when it comes to China and India, but knows where to put it's bets. Russia and India have absolutely no major diplomatic issues or "geopolitical beef", by the nature of their distant location and history with each-other. Cannot say the same for Russia and China, there has always been tension and still is, contested territory, and influence in Asia. Fortunately for Russia India and China face a similar tension with each other, giving Russia the upper-hand in playing it's cards right.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 10:33 PM

Chinese economy is not comparable to Soviet one because it has a market economy, they abandoned the whole communism thing a while ago.

the new Soviet Union is merely an abstract concept that is not to be taken literally... what is meant by it is a country or a group of countries that can be in a position to challenge the US interests not only on a regional but on a global scale....

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 10:42 PM

Speaking of supercomputers in Russia...

Putin allocates $37 million to build supercomputers in Russia

04:1703/03/2010
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has allocated 1.1 billion rubles ($37 million) to develop supercomputer technologies in Russia.
The Russian government boosted funding for supercomputer researches after 2000.
Supercomputers perform mainly highly calculation-intensive tasks and used in areas like quantum physics and climate researches. Their speed is measured in FLOPS (FLoating Point Operations Per Second), most commonly used with a tera- prefix.
In 2004 Russia launched its fastest supercomputer, Lomonosov, in the Moscow State University's Research Computing Center. (http://en.beta.rian.ru/onlinenews/20041118/39773550.html) With the peak speed of 420 TFLOPS, it is ranked 12th the Top500 list of the world's fastest computers.
Eight of the top 10 computers in the list are U.S.-based, including the three fastest - Jaguar in the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (2,331 TFLOPS), Roadrunner in the Los Alamos National Laboratory (1375.78 TFLOPS) and Kraken in the National Institute for Computational Sciences (1028.85 TFLOPS).
MOSCOW, March 3 (RIA Novosti)
http://en.rian.ru/science/20100303/158073975.html

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 10:43 PM

the new Soviet Union is merely an abstract concept that is not to be taken literally... what is meant by it is a country or a group of countries that can be in a position to challenge the US interests not only on a regional but on a global scale....
Maybe, or maybe China is "new Soviet Union" because it is also "communist".

Russianlynxy

03-02-2010, 10:49 PM

Maybe, or maybe China is "new Soviet Union" because it is also "communist".

China is not a union. The whole point of a re-emerging "Soviet Union" is a re-emerging commonwealth of some sort. Preferably Ukraine, Belarus, and maybe even Kazakhstan

skyrock

03-02-2010, 10:55 PM

You are one of those who will buy 1Ghz Intel Core 2 CPU that can do 4 operations per Hz instead of 300 Mhz Elbrus that performs 23 operations per Hz rofl

This 300MHz Elbrus can only deliver 2.4 GFLOPS (64 bits) performance, but Intel® Core™ i7 Desktop processor can reach 55 GFLOPS, which is over 20x faster than the Russian crap.

Russians make the crappy CPU for their super computers? Just to allow the Russian MPers to make fun of themselves?

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:00 PM

China is not a union. The whole point of a re-emerging "Soviet Union" is a re-emerging commonwealth of some sort. Preferably Ukraine, Belarus, and maybe even Kazakhstan

Kazakhstan for sure....

skyrock

03-02-2010, 11:00 PM

Synthe

03-02-2010, 11:03 PM

Yeah I completely agree with this theory. Russia is playing on the sidelines for now when it comes to China and India, but knows where to put it's bets. Russia and India have absolutely no major diplomatic issues or "geopolitical beef", by the nature of their distant location and history with each-other. Cannot say the same for Russia and China, there has always been tension and still is, contested territory, and influence in Asia. Fortunately for Russia India and China face a similar tension with each other, giving Russia the upper-hand in playing it's cards right.

Russia doesn't care about india or china, it needs $$$$$ from selling military arms to them. And can anybody explain to me the obession with "influence" in international politics??

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:07 PM

This 300MHz Elbrus can only deliver 2.4 GFLOPS (64 bits) performance, but Intel® Core™ i7 Desktop processor can reach 55 GFLOPS, which is over 20x faster than the Russian crap.

Russians make the crappy CPU for their super computers? Just to allow the Russian MPers to make fun of themselves?

in the age of beowulf mega clusters it matters little just how fast an individual CPU is.... the russians are good in math and physics and if they try hard enough they will close the gap very soon.. and go ahead just ask me how many Russian engineers are working on biggest R&D projects at Motorola, LG, Intel, etc. while living in Russia.....

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:09 PM

Russia doesn't care about india or china, it needs $$$$$ from selling military arms to them. And can anybody explain to me the obession with "influence" in international politics??

that is the way the Russians would prefer everyone to think.. helping Iran with nuclear research? only cuz it wants some of those Iranian dinars .. seliing military tech to India while keeping certain exports from going to China?... Russia interested in some rupees but doesn't like the color of yuan... that's a 'head in the sand' mentality at its worst

skyrock

03-02-2010, 11:11 PM

in the age of beowulf mega clusters it matters little just how fast an individual CPU is.... the russians are good in math and physics and if they try hard enough they will close the gap very soon.. and go ahead just ask me how many Russian engineers are working on biggest R&D projects at Motorola, LG, Intel, etc. while living in Russia.....

I said over and over that I never underestimate Russia's potential, but the megalomania complex you see in some Russian MPers drags themselves down.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:11 PM

Still behind America, China.

it will be behind until about 2018-2020....

skyrock

03-02-2010, 11:14 PM

it will be behind until about 2018-2020....

If you are so sure about prediction, I suggest you become a stock commentator, then your post can at least bring you some cash flow.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:16 PM

If you are so sure about prediction, I suggest you become a stock commentator, then your post can at least bring you some cash flow.

I do smth similar for a living anyways)

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 11:18 PM

China is not a union. The whole point of a re-emerging "Soviet Union" is a re-emerging commonwealth of some sort. Preferably Ukraine, Belarus, and maybe even Kazakhstan
Wasn't my opinion, I was suggesting possible motivation behind original guy who suggested it.

skyrock

03-02-2010, 11:20 PM

I do smth similar for a living anyways)

It is indeed not bad if betting with others' money.

DL5

03-02-2010, 11:20 PM

Kilgor

03-02-2010, 11:21 PM

in the age of beowulf mega clusters it matters little just how fast an individual CPU is.... the russians are good in math and physics and if they try hard enough they will close the gap very soon.. and go ahead just ask me how many Russian engineers are working on biggest R&D projects at Motorola, LG, Intel, etc. while living in Russia.....

http://www.top500.org/

Find a Russian cpu in this list.

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:23 PM

http://www.top500.org/

Find a Russian cpu in this list.

like I said give it time.... that is one area the SU missed out on due to very narrow application of its CPU tech.. the US processor tech had its roots in the military but was largely driven by private enterprise R&D and significant business demand... that's capitalism for ya

CaptMorgan68

03-02-2010, 11:26 PM

Do you have any evidence or sources to back up these claims your asserting? You seem to be keen on finding and posting articles that have anything to do with the undermining of U.S. interests..

better to be safe than sorry

Mango Madness

03-02-2010, 11:30 PM

It doesn't even have to be with time, Russia doesn't have to be a rival to the US in everything. If you look at the list, the US pretty much has a monopoly on computer chip tech, everyone else is roughly at the same level.

Synthe

03-03-2010, 12:01 AM

that is the way the Russians would prefer everyone to think.. helping Iran with nuclear research? only cuz it wants some of those Iranian dinars .. seliing military tech to India while keeping certain exports from going to China?... Russia interested in some rupees but doesn't like the color of yuan... that's a 'head in the sand' mentality at its worst

Well russia is well aware that the PLA will probably reverse engineer their technology, quite dishonest but very slick to save costs. And i think chinese orders for russian military equipment hasn't been fresh since half a decade ago, unlike india where their buying russian equipment left and right.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090204/119981492.html
Ahh, here we go.

"Russian arms sales to China could shrink from 40% to 10%, the head of a state-controlled arms exporter said on Wednesday. "

"in an apparent reference to India, Isaikin said a similar tendency is visible with other partners also, with the focus shifting from 'buyer-seller' relationship to joint development and production of weapon systems. "

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 12:44 AM

What is up with the invasion of trolls on Russian threads lately?

"don't let megalomania drag you down" lol wut?

Any fool can tell you that commercial and consumer goods production was NOT the focus of 70 years of Russian industry and development. Only now are such sectors being developed in Russia.

But guess who's ahead in space, rocket and nuclear tech? Eh, guess? :)

Derbedeu

03-03-2010, 12:56 AM

But guess who's ahead in space, rocket and nuclear tech? Eh, guess? :)

The United States of America. ;) :)

ComradeGhillieBeard

03-03-2010, 01:04 AM

What's with all the anti-Russian sentiment? Have we not evolved at all since the Mccarthy era?

Kak

03-03-2010, 01:05 AM

http://www.top500.org/

Find a Russian cpu in this list.

A Russian CPU is 12th on that list, which I don't think is that bad. Overall they're behind China but not by THAT much.

sepheronx

03-03-2010, 01:05 AM

The United States of America. ;) :)
I guess that is why they spend money to launch stuff using Russian rockets, right?

Derbedeu

03-03-2010, 01:12 AM

I guess that is why they spend money to launch stuff using Russian rockets, right?

They do it cause it's cheaper. Common practice really.

US still holds the record for the largest and most powerful launch vehicle ever brought to operational status from a height, weight and payload standpoint (Saturn V). ;)

Switek

03-03-2010, 01:15 AM

We're still pretty free despite politicans and EU trying very hard to change that. And since protesting is not really a German thing this process of taking away the rights is advancing slowly but steadily...

Hey smart ass! I'm still waiting for your proofs backing those statement:

... I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

xzx

03-03-2010, 01:22 AM

This 300MHz Elbrus can only deliver 2.4 GFLOPS (64 bits) performance, but Intel® Core™ i7 Desktop processor can reach 55 GFLOPS, which is over 20x faster than the Russian crap.

Russians make the crappy CPU for their super computers? Just to allow the Russian MPers to make fun of themselves?

1. This 300MHz Elbrus(3m1) do about 6 GFLOPS(64 bit).
2. Why do you compare this 5 years old CPU with intel i7? Maybe you should compare this one Microprocessor Elbrus-PF, projected 2011. 65 nm technology, 8 cores VLIW/EPIC processor. With the transition to 45 nm technology, this processor will have a clock frequency of 2 GHz, and a performance of 8 TFLOPS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/wiki/TFLOPS) = 8000 GFLOPS which is 160x times faster than intel i7. And now go find some equivalent in crap that China produce rofl

Kilgor

03-03-2010, 01:32 AM

Holycrusader

03-03-2010, 01:34 AM

This has been discussed before. This CPU does not exist, vapour-ware. No proof. Nothing, and the 8GF number is HIGHLY suspicious.

People like you say the same about the PAK FA...

Kilgor

03-03-2010, 01:34 AM

A Russian CPU is 12th on that list, which I don't think is that bad. Overall they're behind China but not by THAT much.

Read it again

http://www.top500.org/system/10189

System Name Lomonosov
Site Moscow State University - Research Computing Center
System Family T-Platforms Cluster
System Model T-Platforms T-Blade2
Computer T-Platforms T-Blade2, Xeon 5570 2.93 GHz, Infiniband QDR
Vendor T-Platforms
Application area Not Specified
Main Memory 54312 GB
Installation Year 2009

Operating System Linux
Memory 54312 GB
Interconnect Infiniband
Processor Intel EM64T Xeon X55xx (Nehalem-EP) 2930 MHz (11.72 GFlops)

Kilgor

03-03-2010, 01:35 AM

People like you say the same about the PAK FA...

The PAKFA exists, therefore this CPU exists.

Wow... i love the logic.

xzx

03-03-2010, 01:50 AM

This has been discussed before. This CPU does not exist, vapour-ware. No proof. Nothing, and the 8GF number is HIGHLY suspicious.

I didnt say it exist ) If you wanna talk about existing CPU, Russia currently produce Elbrus-2S CPUs, they are installed on PAK FA. That CPU have 2 core, 600 Mhz speed and produced by 90nm tech. With performance about 30 GFLOPS.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 01:52 AM

1. This 300MHz Elbrus(3m1) do about 6 GFLOPS(64 bit).
2. Why do you compare this 5 years old CPU with intel i7? Maybe you should compare this one Microprocessor Elbrus-PF, projected 2011. 65 nm technology, 8 cores VLIW/EPIC processor. With the transition to 45 nm technology, this processor will have a clock frequency of 2 GHz, and a performance of 8 TFLOPS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/wiki/TFLOPS) = 8000 GFLOPS which is 160x times faster than intel i7. And now go find some equivalent in crap that China produce rofl

You failed miserably. Russia's best CPU so far is Elbrus 300MHz "Performance: 23.7 GIPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIPS)/2.4 GFLOPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFLOPS) (64 bits), 4.8 GFLOPS (32 bits). This processor is manufactured in Taiwan."Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)

Why do I compare this 5 years old CPU with Intel i7? Because that is what you have now! When your still-on-paper Elbrus-PF is out, you will find your crap is still far behind Intel and IBM latest CPUs.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 01:53 AM

I didnt say it exist ) If you wanna talk about existing CPU, Russia currently produce Elbrus-2S CPUs, they are installed on PAK FA. That CPU have 2 core, 600 Mhz speed and produced by 90nm tech. With performance about 30 GFLOPS.

Sources? Please

Confuse

03-03-2010, 01:55 AM

the tradition thought of the soviet union/russia as a power is due to growing up in the shadow of nuclear destruction, where soviet power was in the minds of everyone in the west.. even thought it isn't the case in today's russia that image is still alive.... while the image of china is of the "sick man of asia" where in reality it is highly underestimated to see it in such a light, the way that some thing that china should give in to others demands is in the same light as when china was without military defence strength and internal resolve and the era of "might makes right" reigned against china's interests even when it was in the "right" .. turn the situation around, if the US was treated in the same way that it expects china to give in to demands then the US would scoff in outrage at such "arrogance" and demand punitive war to "put it in it's place" (not exact words, but pretty much the jest of it from the dawn of european colonialism in china to today)

xzx

03-03-2010, 02:02 AM

You failed miserably. Russia's best CPU so far is Elbrus 300MHz "Performance: 23.7 GIPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIPS)/2.4 GFLOPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFLOPS) (64 bits), 4.8 GFLOPS (32 bits). This processor is manufactured in Taiwan."Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)

Why do I compare this 5 years old CPU with Intel i7? Because that is what you have now! When your still-on-paper Elbrus-PF is out, you will find your crap is still far behind Intel and IBM latest CPUs.

You obviously have some problems even with reading. In this article you are quoting that was written even before 2009 stated "Elbrus-3M1 is the latest computer of MCST/Elbrus. According to test results, the peak performance of the "Elbrus-3M1" computer is in the range of 11.6 GFLOPS" "Elbrus-3S will be the next computer of MCST/Elbrus, projected 2009. It will have four VLIW/EPIC type Elbrus-S processors (500 MHz, 0.09 micrometre technology, system on a chip (http://www.militaryphotos.net/wiki/System_on_a_chip))"

Switek

03-03-2010, 02:02 AM

What the hell CPU has in common with Soviet Union come back? Does supercomputer make Russia new empire?

Difool

03-03-2010, 02:12 AM

What the hell CPU has in common with Soviet Union come back? Does supercomputer make Russia new emperor?

As I understood the article, it's more about Russian political system and limiting freedom (a phenomen you can also observe in western countries) than growth of economy and technology.
I don't even know what flops are and I don't care.

As for the "made in" I know of German products build in China with the last screw fastened in Getmany so that they are "made in Germany". So I won't trust such writing.

They do it cause it's cheaper. Common practice really.

US still holds the record for the largest and most powerful launch vehicle ever brought to operational status from a height, weight and payload standpoint (Saturn V). ;)
This, plus they seem to be more safe, too.

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 02:21 AM

They do it cause it's cheaper. Common practice really.

US still holds the record for the largest and most powerful launch vehicle ever brought to operational status from a height, weight and payload standpoint (Saturn V). ;)

Meanwhile Russia holds records for first man/woman, satellite, space-station, etc... and a bunch of other related stuff too.

In terms of space and propulsion vehicles Russia holds the edge; the technology is cheaper and more reliable. The cost/per kilogram launched into space is far smaller for Russia than for the US.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 02:38 AM

You obviously have some problems even with reading. In this article you are quoting that was written even before 2009 stated "Elbrus-3M1 is the latest computer of MCST/Elbrus. According to test results, the peak performance of the "Elbrus-3M1" computer is in the range of 11.6 GFLOPS" "Elbrus-3S will be the next computer of MCST/Elbrus, projected 2009. It will have four VLIW/EPIC type Elbrus-S processors (500 MHz, 0.09 micrometre technology, system on a chip (http://www.militaryphotos.net/wiki/System_on_a_chip))"

Do you know the difference between a CPU (processor) and and a computer? This crappy computer has 4 crappy CPUs. The crappy computer delivers 11.6 GFLOPS, so each CPU delivers less than 3 GFLOPS.

In comparison, an Intel i7 CPU can reach 55 GFLOPS.

Are you some type of liberal art person who is clueless about technology?

skyrock

03-03-2010, 02:42 AM

What the hell CPU has in common with Soviet Union come back? Does supercomputer make Russia new empire?

You got to love these Russian Strong type MPers who are clueless about CPU and supercomputer, yet they big-mouth how advance Russia is in this field.

Kilgor

03-03-2010, 02:53 AM

Meanwhile Russia holds records for first man/woman, satellite, space-station, etc... and a bunch of other related stuff too.

.

No, that was this magical place called the Soviet Union. It's no longer around but you can find it on the ashpile of history. Look in the can named "failed tototalitarian idealisms of the 20th century"

Or maybe Kazakhstan should claim to have these firsts, because it was launched from their country.

xzx

03-03-2010, 02:54 AM

Do have know the difference between a CPU (processor) and and a computer? This crappy computer has 4 crappy CPUs. The crappy computer delivers 11.6 GFLOPS, so each CPU delivers less than 3 GFLOPS. What is funny is this crappy computer is still on paper.

In comparison, an Intel i7 CPU can reach 55 GFLOPS.

Are you some type of liberal art person who is clueless about technology?

Do you have appropirate level of IQ to discuss things on forums? You just produced another load of horrible rubbish. I gave you descriptions of two different computers. Elbrus 3m1 that was for sale already in 2007. And Elbrus-3S that was developed in 2009, and exist now not on paper but in real life.

The computer you are talking about Elbrus 3M1 have 2 CPUs. That means each Elbrus 3M1 CPU do 6 GFLOPS. On the other hand 2x core 600 MHz Elbrus-2S CPU that was developed in 2009 has 30 GFLOPS.

CaptMorgan68

03-03-2010, 03:01 AM

What the hell CPU has in common with Soviet Union come back? Does supercomputer make Russia new empire?

largely irrelevant.. my hope however is that even if Russia does bounce back it is not as angry and evil as it was during the early Soviet period and that it does finally embrace the "soft power" approach to relations with countries around it... there seems to be little ideological baggage this time which is a good sign... hopefully economic prosperity rather then senseless expansionism becomes the national idea...

skyrock

03-03-2010, 03:05 AM

And Elbrus-3S that was developed in 2009, and exist now not on paper but in real life.

Source? Please do not point me to that wiki article (it says "projected")

CaptMorgan68

03-03-2010, 03:08 AM

You got to love these Russian Strong type MPers who are clueless about CPU and supercomputer, yet they big-mouth how advance Russia is in this field.

supercomuters of today are no more than clusters... multiple cores on a single chipset is the current trend.. supercomputers are important for various strategic research but this is not the most important component of economic growth.. arguably the single most important factor in the growth of the US economy in the 60's for example was the development of interstate highway infrastructure.... the route 66 is at the core of American success... and computers have become a utility a long time ago... chinese are cracking them chipsets like there's no tomorrow... the future is in quant tech and the US is leading in that regard.. but can the US maintain its scientific lead in the long term is the question...

btw the Russians are catching up even if very slowly:

"In October, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and Rusnano director Anatoly Chubais visited the Mikron factory in Zelenograd outside Moscow where technicians had created Russia’s latest microchip with spans of only 180 nanometers. The visit also marked the signing of a $500 million agreement to purchase unbelievably advanced technology from the French and Italian STMicroelectronics firm capable of producing circuits with spans of only 90 nanometers. The problem is that elsewhere researchers have managed to halve the possible circuit span every 18 months or so, and just two weeks before Putin’s historic visit, Intel announced a microprocessor using spans of only 32 nanometers."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/betting-on-a-philosophers-high-tech-stone/400809.html

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 03:11 AM

No, that was this magical place called the Soviet Union. It's no longer around but you can find it on the ashpile of history. Look in the can named "failed tototalitarian idealisms of the 20th century"

Or maybe Kazakhstan should claim to have these firsts, because it was launched from their country.

Russia inherited most of USSR space industry, and baring part-Ukrainian sea-launch - all of its capability. I'm not saying Ukraine, Estonia or Kazakhstan can't have claim either of course as they were also key parts of the Soviet space program. However the Russian space program is different and far more efficient IMO. All reliance on foreign countries is being got ridden-off (Vostochny replacing Baikonaur, Angara to replace Ukrainian Zenit, etc...) while international partnerships are being built-up to the maximum (launches from French Guinea, projects with S. Korea, ESA, etc...)

The 90's shaped Roscosmos up into a corporation that is fully capable of turning a buck itself; rather than the old NASA model of funding through taxes and expenditures. America understands this perfectly well; hence the new focus on privately-funded enterprise to drive space tech growth.

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 03:15 AM

xzx

03-03-2010, 03:19 AM

Source? Please do not point me to that wiki article (it says "projected")

http://www.osp.ru/text/print/302/7314081.html This article from 2009 says development of Elbrus-S CPU will be finished in 2009.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 03:21 AM

supercomuters of today are no more than clusters... multiple cores on a single chipset is the current trend.. supercomputers are important for various strategic research but this is not the most important component of economic growth.. arguably the single most important factor in the growth of the US economy in the 60's for example was the development of interstate highway infrastructure.... the route 66 is at the core of American success... and computers have become a utility a long time ago... chinese are cracking them chipsets like there's no tomorrow... the future is in quant tech and the US is leading in that regard.. but can the US maintain its scientific lead in the long term is the question...

btw the Russians are catching up even if very slowly:

"In October, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and Rusnano director Anatoly Chubais visited the Mikron factory in Zelenograd outside Moscow where technicians had created Russia’s latest microchip with spans of only 180 nanometers. The visit also marked the signing of a $500 million agreement to purchase unbelievably advanced technology from the French and Italian STMicroelectronics firm capable of producing circuits with spans of only 90 nanometers. The problem is that elsewhere researchers have managed to halve the possible circuit span every 18 months or so, and just two weeks before Putin’s historic visit, Intel announced a microprocessor using spans of only 32 nanometers."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/betting-on-a-philosophers-high-tech-stone/400809.html

Today, nuclear weapon design does not need actual nuclear tests, because of simulations on supercomputers. That is why you see DoD & DOE throw in tons of money to upgrade their systems. China is doing the same.

As for the 90nm chip fab to be built in Russia. It is going to be a liability instead of asset for the Russians. By that time, it will have been too old. Even by today's standard, it is quite old. Taiwanese fountries are offering 65nm and 45nm technologies to anyone.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 03:23 AM

http://www.osp.ru/text/print/302/7314081.html This article from 2009 says development of Elbrus-S CPU will be finished in 2009.

"Will be" does not mean "exist".

Projects tend to slip.

The Investigator

03-03-2010, 03:41 AM

I'm not gonna say there isn't any truth to this. However for the most part I diagree with the author. But damn Putin is the most bad-ass looking world leader. I wish my country's PM could have that kind of appeal.

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 03:44 AM

Today, nuclear weapon design does not need actual nuclear tests, because of simulations on supercomputers. That is why you see DoD & DOE throw in tons of money to upgrade their systems. China is doing the same.
Nuclear weapons testing is only done in simulations because of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Nuclear-Test-Ban_Treaty

Switek

03-03-2010, 04:01 AM

You got to love these Russian Strong type MPers who are clueless about CPU and supercomputer, yet they big-mouth how advance Russia is in this field.

I'm aware when boys are continuing the never ending competition whose pennis is bigger. It really doesn't matter if they discuss whose, rifle, tank, microprocessor or alleged fifth generation fighter is better, longer or cooler...

skyrock

03-03-2010, 04:02 AM

Nuclear weapons testing is only done in simulations because of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Nuclear-Test-Ban_Treaty

Without simulation capability, Americans will do actual tests anyway without giving a sh/t about the treaty.

skyrock

03-03-2010, 04:07 AM

I'm aware when boys are continuing the never ending competition whose pennis is bigger. It really doesn't matter if they discuss whose, rifle, tank, microprocessor or alleged fifth generation fighter is better, longer or cooler...

and we always find Poles when Russians are around ...

Fiber

03-03-2010, 04:12 AM

Look at the picture in the first post. Putin needs some lip balm. No homo.

Holycrusader

03-03-2010, 04:14 AM

The PAKFA exists, therefore this CPU exists.

Wow... i love the logic.

I was only showing your bias... I do not care about CPU.

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 04:25 AM

Holycrusader

03-03-2010, 04:28 AM

and we always find Poles when Russians are around ...

We are neighbours, so its normal...

Switek

03-03-2010, 05:41 AM

Couldn't you have said French-sized or British-sized economy (PPP and almost nominally) ? It's a fair bit larger than Mexico's anyway, both PPP and nominally.

Considered many other factors I can find that Russia has much more in common with Mexico than France or Great Britain... ;)

Switek

03-03-2010, 05:44 AM

and we always find Poles when Russians are around ...
:lol:

Yeah, sure because I damn Pole my attitude must be hostile and biased.

Yes I did have Russian baby on breakfast today and now I'm drinking its blood with Russian vodka... delicious. You should try one day

sepheronx

03-03-2010, 05:49 AM

:lol:

Yeah, sure because I damn Pole my attitude must be hostile and biased.

Yes I did have Russian baby on breakfast today and now I'm drinking its blood with Russian vodka... delicious. You should try one day

Well, besides the usual, yes, you do act quite biased.

Switek

03-03-2010, 05:53 AM

Well, besides the usual, yes, you do act quite biased.

This is typical, lame excuse of those who can't intellectually argue with different opinions, views. Most of my opponents, usually do not read my posts or read them superficially.

sepheronx

03-03-2010, 05:55 AM

This is typical, lame excuse of those who can't intellectually argue with different opinions, views. Most of my opponents, usually do not read my posts or read them superficially.

sure, why not. Instantly everyone is is ignorant or unintelligent. Sure.

Face it, you are biased, just like lots others. Oh noes, the world is going to end!!!!

Cry me a river.

Example is that I have never seen you say one thing nice about Russia or anything that goes on. Really, you are very good at pointing out everything is wrong, but over extending it. Grain of sand turning into a beach.

Switek

03-03-2010, 06:04 AM

sure, why not. Instantly everyone is is ignorant or unintelligent. Sure.

Face it, you are biased, just like lots others. Oh noes, the world is going to end!!!!

Cry me a river.

Example is that I have never seen you say one thing nice about Russia or anything that goes on. Really, you are very good at pointing out everything is wrong, but over extending it. Grain of sand turning into a beach. rofl

You know boy? If you didn't contradict yourself writing opposite statements, dependably whom you response may be you'd be taken seriously.

You're only making more idiot of yourself withe every of your post. This happens every time when someone ego is bigger than average level if immaturity, like in your case. You have nothing to suggest but personal insults You still have time to grow up.

You're kid! You know?

rofl

sepheronx

03-03-2010, 06:11 AM

rofl

You know boy? If you didn't contradict yourself writing opposite statements, dependably whom you response may be you'd be taken seriously.

You're only making more idiot of yourself withe every of your post. This happens every time when someone ego is bigger than average level if immaturity, like in your case. You have nothing to suggest but personal insults You still have time to grow up.

You're kid! You know?

rofl

Is that so? Then why is it that someone else made the comment about a Polish member always keep on entering a Russian thread? Seems odd that others too are saying it. But it must be me in disguise then.

Contradiction mostly applies when people having a problem in reading comprehension, but seeing as how English isn't your first language, I won't hold it against you.

Alas, you are the one now saying I resort to name calling and insults, when you just stated that I am a Kid and an idiot, and immature. If you are telling me that I need to grow up, you too need to do the same. But seeing as how you are twice my age, it may be a little late for yourself (cant teach old dogs new tricks). Must be nice trying (but doing such a poor job at it), insulting someone half your age, bet the wife enjoys having such a strong man.

It's ok though, I don't blame you. I just blame your education.

Switek

03-03-2010, 06:25 AM

Is that so? Then why is it that someone else made the comment about a Polish member always keep on entering a Russian thread? Seems odd that others too are saying it. But it must be me in disguise then.

Contradiction mostly applies when people having a problem in reading comprehension, but seeing as how English isn't your first language, I won't hold it against you.

Alas, you are the one now saying I resort to name calling and insults, when you just stated that I am a Kid and an idiot, and immature. If you are telling me that I need to grow up, you too need to do the same. But seeing as how you are twice my age, it may be a little late for yourself (cant teach old dogs new tricks). Must be nice trying (but doing such a poor job at it), insulting someone half your age, bet the wife enjoys having such a strong man.

It's ok though, I don't blame you. I just blame your education.

You must have problems with understanding what is a reason and what is a result.

sepheronx

03-03-2010, 06:28 AM

You must have problems with understanding what is a reason and what is a result.

Sure, whatever you say.

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 06:37 AM

Considered many other factors I can find that Russia has much more in common with Mexico than France or Great Britain... ;)
You're not helping your "misunderstood Pole" image with such comments

Difool

03-03-2010, 06:47 AM

Latest news: Canadians and Poles clash arguing about Russia. Mexico declares brotherhood with Russia. Russia uses French technology while occupying Ukraine. Mongolia joins the EU while Greece is bought by Russian billionare.
Saludos tovarishi!

Switek

03-03-2010, 07:21 AM

You're not helping your "misunderstood Pole" image with such comments

I meant high criminal rate, level of corruption, asymmetrical distribution of wealth, and not sufficient federal administration in some areas. It's your choice whether is descriptive (exaggerated diagnosis a little bit) or prejudicial (if someone consider Mexico as negative example) attitude.

Of course me as a Pole mus be defined as a Russophobe.

Arbody

03-03-2010, 07:26 AM

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 07:27 AM

I meant high criminal rate, level of corruption, asymmetrical distribution of wealth, and not sufficient federal administration in some areas. It's your choice whether is descriptive (exaggerated diagnosis a little bit) or prejudicial (if someone consider Mexico as negative example) attitude.

Of course me as a Pole mus be defined as a Russophobe.
You said "Russia has same GDP as Mexico", not "Russia has same economy as Mexico". Once I pointed out that Russia's GDP was closer to Britain and France, you backtracked and made a sleight about how Russia is more "Mexican" than British or French.

Then you wonder why people say you don't like Russia...

Switek

03-03-2010, 07:29 AM

You are much worst than russophobe You are socialist!

Eeer... wait... how?

How the heck did you discover this?... I'm (in some sense) covered Marxists...

Switek

03-03-2010, 07:36 AM

You said "Russia has same GDP as Mexico", not "Russia has same economy as Mexico". Once I pointed out that Russia's GDP was closer to Britain and France, you backtracked and made a sleight about how you meant Russia is more "Mexican" than British or French.

Then you wonder why people say you don't like Russia...

look exactly what I wrote, sir

The main question is how a country with Mexican size economy but in worse shape by level and age of technology applied wants to come back to first league? Current Russian advantages aren't forever and are, in fact the most dangerous weaknesses... Seems that some Russian leaders are mentally in 20th century in cold war period and don't get what's happening in the world nowadays...

Yes I know it's unpleasant and harmful but reflects true diagnosis about current Russian economy and industry, what ebven Russian governmental experts do not deny.

As I stated earlier people who do criticize me, don't read what I'm writing or draws superficial conclusions.

Arbody

03-03-2010, 07:36 AM

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 07:41 AM

look exactly what I wrote, sir
Yes, you said "Mexican size economy" - size of an economy is measured by GDP and has nothing to do with corruption and whatever.

Ataman

03-03-2010, 07:48 AM

Switek

03-03-2010, 07:51 AM

C'mon Switek know's $hit about Russia and I know lot about Poland and it's laughable when some Pole (not all of theme) say's about Russian inferior. So if we camparing Russia with Mexico I'll compare Poland with South Sudan and it will be also untrue

I know one for sure you know **** as it comes to figures of speech. Lesson number one: simile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simile).

;)

Switek

03-03-2010, 07:54 AM

Switek, you don't really think the Polish economy is better than the Russian one, do you?
GDP is quite easy to rise and not the only factor. And even there Poland and Russia are very close. We shouldn't forget debts etc.

Hey smart ass! I'm still waiting for your proofs backing those statement:

... I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

It's my third attempt here...

Holycrusader

03-03-2010, 07:57 AM

C'mon Switek know's $hit about Russia and I know lot about Poland and it's laughable when some Pole (not all of theme) say's about Russian inferior. So if we camparing Russia with Mexico I'll compare Poland with South Sudan and it will be also untrue

I notice that too. I wonder if Switek visit Russia in the past? His level of ignorance is typical for polish media readers/watchers... You need to have at least some first hand experience with Russia to know something about that country... There is so much of antirussian propaganda and bs that it stop being funny...

Ataman

03-03-2010, 08:05 AM

Hey smart ass! I'm still waiting for your proofs backing those statement:

It's my third attempt here...

It's not like I bother reading all your posts, Russophobe. But you seem to do, thanks.

There's not much to say. Go to Russia, you won't feel unfree at all. I can do the same things I do in Germany. I don't feel any big difference. But to many governments only one sort of freedom is important: The freedom to exploit people. I'm happy that we have our own understanding of the word 'freedom'. And if you're happy with your 'freedom' and we're happy with our 'freedom', then where's the problem?

Switek

03-03-2010, 08:05 AM

Ataman

03-03-2010, 08:07 AM

I've checked latest updates and should write:

"Russian economy is like Brazilian size one". Sounds better?

Inet: stop behaving as another mongrel barking in the herd.

What do you say about Polish economy? I'm very curious.

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2010, 08:13 AM

Oh come on now...what does this have to do with the original article? Who cares about one's economy, we're still reeling from a worldwide crisis and economies will expand and contract from time to time.

Robert.V

03-03-2010, 08:14 AM

As I understood the article, it's more about Russian political system and limiting freedom (a phenomen you can also observe in western countries) than growth of economy and technology.
I don't even know what flops are and I don't care.

As for the "made in" I know of German products build in China with the last screw fastened in Getmany so that they are "made in Germany". So I won't trust such writing.

This, plus they seem to be more safe, too.

And are more sophisticated actually.

Robert.V

03-03-2010, 08:18 AM

This has been discussed before.

Yes, we have been discussing this all before. do you want me to bump up the old thread were you failed so badly ...or do you like me to humiliate you again ?

Switek

03-03-2010, 08:28 AM

It's not like I bother reading all your posts, Russophobe. But you seem to do, thanks.

There's not much to say. Go to Russia, you won't feel unfree at all. I can do the same things I do in Germany. I don't feel any big difference. But to many governments only one sort of freedom is important: The freedom to exploit people. I'm happy that we have our own understanding of the word 'freedom'. And if you're happy with your 'freedom' and we're happy with our 'freedom', then where's the problem?

Ah yeah... your free impressions allow you say that there's much more personal freedom than in US.

Pathetic

What do you say about Polish economy? I'm very curious.

not really much:

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1690/739598348.jpg

Arbody

03-03-2010, 08:42 AM

Ataman

03-03-2010, 08:46 AM

Ah yeah... your free impressions allow you say that there's much more personal freedom than in US.

Pathetic

Your anti-Russian bias is pathetic to me as well.

not really much:

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1690/739598348.jpg

Ye, mate. Stick your head into a hole and be happy.

Mango Madness

03-03-2010, 08:51 AM

"Russian economy is like Brazilian size one". Sounds better?
It's interesting how you only like to say it's only the size of other developing countries and insist on leaving out that it's the same size as British and French economies. Your russophobe reputation only increases.

Switek

03-03-2010, 09:09 AM

p-) I see that Switek don't have an any idea about economy ;) yep 1,1% above but the funniest thing is why it is so? You know why? It's sign of stagnant market and an ailing economy. That seems strange but some times in economy is better to lose than stagnation

Only Poland haters act that way. Pull facts out the context and ridicule. Look around an then draw conclusions.

;)

Switek

03-03-2010, 09:16 AM

It's interesting how you only like to say it's only the size of other developing countries and insist on leaving out that it's the same size as British and French economies. Your russophobe reputation only increases.

Only Europocentric narrow minded moron would refuse Brazil its rightful place among the fastest growing economies. Are you racist or something? Are you suffer for Brazilliophobe? You can say many things about modern Brazil. The last is is still developing country. In many aspect it's very developed and influence not only region but Portugal as well. In upcoming years you can expect many Brazilian investments in Europe... and not only. Oh sounds strange?

Akril

03-03-2010, 09:27 AM

What do you say about Polish economy? I'm very curious.

Poland is the future Switzerland of Europe, you now.
Well, except the population size...

TakeIt

03-03-2010, 09:43 AM

Only Europocentric narrow minded moron would refuse Brazil its rightful place among the fastest growing economies. Are you racist or something? Are you suffer for Brazilliophobe? Masterfull trolling. Read and learn guys. Not only he defended his bias, he actually attacked back without posting anything topic-related. A master class indeed. p-)

Anyway, it's time to close the topic i think, since SU is not being restored despite anyone's wet dreams.

Switek

03-03-2010, 09:46 AM

Poland is the future Switzerland of Europe, you now.
Well, except the population size...

Thousands of Russian and Ukrainian tourist who spend New Year and orthodox Christmas in Polish Tatra Mountains find they 'Switzerland' there. They're warmly welcomed, can feel safe and aren't any particular target of criminals. Well the mountains are lower but closer and cheaper. ;).

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 09:46 AM

If Russia is Mexico, Poland is Nicaragua.

Only Europocentric narrow minded moron would refuse Brazil its rightful place among the fastest growing economies. Are you racist or something? Are you suffer for Brazilliophobe? You can say many things about modern Brazil. The last is is still developing country. In many aspect it's very developed and influence not only region but Portugal as well. In upcoming years you can expect many Brazilian investments in Europe... and not only. Oh sounds strange?

Brazil hasn't provided mass-housing to anywhere close to all of its population; it's still a developing country.

Switek

03-03-2010, 09:48 AM

Masterfull trolling. Read and learn guys. Not only he defended his bias, he actually attacked back without posting anything topic-related. A master class indeed. p-)

Anyway, it's time to close the topic i think, since SU is not being restored despite anyone's wet dreams.

Said by proven Poland and Poles hater and proven mp.net liar who can't find proofs to back own statements... Pathetic fail TakeIt! When you make a fool pf yourself it always makes my day :lol:

Switek

03-03-2010, 09:57 AM

If Russia is Mexico, Poland is Nicaragua.

One is for sure your sense of humor is still developing.

Brazil hasn't provided mass-housing to anywhere close to all of its population; it's still a developing country.

And this is crucial criteria? Well, may be:

Interesting analysis of Brazilian poverty, you don't need to know Polish. Watch carefully:

http://www.tvp.pl/styl-zycia/podroze/boso-przez-swiat/wideo/bieda

my name again

03-03-2010, 10:01 AM

Said by proven Poland and Poles hater and proven mp.net liar who can't find proofs to back own statements... Pathetic fail TakeIt! When you make a fool pf yourself it always makes my day :lol:

You are a troll . Face the realitiy!
If you dont see the pattern here take a look at the last few pages.
You are the one woh is trying too hijack this thread and start a flamewar with other members of this board.
I ask you to stop trolling.

Back to topic please

Red Templar

03-03-2010, 10:07 AM

Poland has the "economy"?
my god ...
this country all my life "with an outstretched hand" (live at other people's money)
;)
pathetic province .... in Russia or in Europe! ;)
"main working-plumbing of the world"

TakeIt

03-03-2010, 10:07 AM

Said by proven Poland and Poles hater and proven mp.net liarThere goes personal insults. Butthurt much, buddy? Sorry, Switek, when Brazil will have her own nuclear industry for example or have comparable international weight, come back.

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 10:15 AM

One is for sure your sense of humor is still developing.

And this is crucial criteria? Well, may be:

Interesting analysis of Brazilian poverty, you don't need to know Polish. Watch carefully:

http://www.tvp.pl/styl-zycia/podroze/boso-przez-swiat/wideo/bieda

It is crucial criteria because a substantial part of its population lives in shanty town controlled by gangs, and barely knows how to read or write. The mostly White middle class there may well be prosperous but at the expense of other strata of society that still live in 3rd-world conditions.

As for Mexico; again a certain segment of its citizens may be relatively wealthy and is supported by a reasonably sized middle-class; but a great proportion of its working-age population emigrates to America to work, the police force is barely effective and the country is quietly fighting a civil war against criminal elements that have taken over whole parts of its territory.

Now no matter how corrupt the Russian police force is for example, can you imagine equivelent of Columbian and Mexican drug gangs rampaging through Russia? They would be annihilated immediately. There is also no underclass in Russia that lives on the streets and emigrates en-masse.

Switek

03-03-2010, 10:17 AM

There goes personal insults. Butthurt much, buddy? Sorry, Switek, when Brazil will have her own nuclear industry for example or have comparable international weight, come back.

You know that I proved two times you're liar... Do you still lie? Seems yea...

You are a troll . Face the realitiy!
If you dont see the pattern here take a look at the last few pages.
You are the one woh is trying too hijack this thread and start a flamewar with other members of this board.
I ask you to stop trolling.

I'm just only parring personal attacks. Seems Russia Strong crew coordinate them today rofl

Back to topic please

You should start from yourself ;)

Akril

03-03-2010, 10:31 AM

Thousands of Russian.

Pics or didn't happened.

Karlovy Vary and Prague is the only popular resort for Russians in Easter Europe.

Switek

03-03-2010, 10:32 AM

It is crucial criteria because a substantial part of its population lives in shanty town controlled by gangs, and barely knows how to read or write. The mostly White middle class there may well be prosperous but at the expense of other strata of society that still live in 3rd-world conditions.

As for Mexico; again a certain segment of its citizens may be relatively wealthy and is supported by a reasonably sized middle-class; but a great proportion of its working-age population emigrates to America to work, the police force is barely effective and the country is quietly fighting a civil war against criminal elements that have taken over whole parts of its territory.
Now no matter how corrupt the Russian police force is for example, can you imagine equivelent of Columbian and Mexican drug gangs rampaging through Russia? They would be annihilated immediately. There is also no underclass in Russia that lives on the streets and emigrates en-masse.

Above descriptions (including primary and secondary illiteracy) less or more fit to some urban and rural areas in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. May be those countries differs just on scale?

Switek

03-03-2010, 10:37 AM

Pics or didn't happened.

Karlovy Vary and Prague is the only popular resort for Russians in Easter Europe.

An article from local newspaper, Dec 2009

http://zakopane.naszemiasto.pl/artykul/269725,zakopane-w-tym-roku-goscie-ze-wschodu-dopisza,id,t.html

Use Google translate..

Red Templar

03-03-2010, 10:55 AM

Exactly!
All these small countries of Eastern Europe have the fate of indentured servants ...
already gnaw each other's teeth for the right to care "white masters";)
best waiters / maids / dishwasher ....
and what meaning to listen to the arguments of the rube on "behind Russia in the space / industrial / military areas?
lol
pan's Poles!
Your opinion will be valuable when installing toilets!
Lol

Akril

03-03-2010, 10:56 AM

Use Google translate..

Swine flu and "mostly Ukrainians". No "thousands of Russians". Sorry.

When we have Krasnaya Poliana and Sheregesh, not to mention Ural Mountains range, there's no need to wast the time on anything less than Courchevel.

Back to topic please

Sure, but what are you going to discuss? The initial article is the russophobic crap with nationalistic flavor.
While what is worth discussing over "restoration of "Soviet Union" isn't news already:

http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/02/27/4886654.html

http://www.neftegaz.ru/en/news/view/92997

cordel

03-03-2010, 12:17 PM

Thousands of Russian and Ukrainian tourist who spend New Year and orthodox Christmas in Polish Tatra Mountains find they 'Switzerland' there. They're warmly welcomed, can feel safe and aren't any particular target of criminals. Well the mountains are lower but closer and cheaper. ;).

Oh, really? http://www.tour-spb.ru/ shows what St. Petersburg tour companies offer. The list shows 492 offers for tours to Poland. Well, not much for a neighboring country, for example, there are 2342 offers for Finland tours. Prague - 1942, France - 2727, Spain - 2701, Italy - 2627, Sweden - 1480 and so on.

The closest country by the number of tour offers is - haha- Australia. 496 offers.

No surprise really. Poland is doing a great effort to position itself as an unfriendly nation. I certainly don't buy the "warmly welcomed' part. I bet most of Russian tourists in Poland have Polish roots, otherwise buying such a tour seems sort of extravagant.

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 12:37 PM

Above descriptions (including primary and secondary illiteracy) less or more fit to some urban and rural areas in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. May be those countries differs just on scale?

Rural population is one thing, urbanised poor underclasses though aren't found in any of these countries - certainly nowhere near on the scale found in Latin/South America, Asia or Africa; not to mention even some Western European countries such as Portugal who also have uneducated, urban poor. The US also suffered from this problem although now to a lesser extent. Since you've brought it up, rural population proportion to urban population is another factor; in Russia over 80% of the population live in the cities - all with housing; can you compare that to Brazil?

5.8 million in Brazil undergoing tertiary education as of 2009, out of a population of +190 million.
8.1 million in Russia undegoing tertiary education as of 2007, out of a population of +140 million (some 5% are foreign and CIS students).

Again this is a big difference.

Furthermore, even Russia's rural population is literate and educated to a sufficient level; there are no drug gangs that control any villages in Russia; although I do admit that drug abuse and emigration to cities/low employment oppurtunities are a problem.

tommy00

03-03-2010, 12:37 PM

Oh, really? http://www.tour-spb.ru/ shows what St. Petersburg tour companies offer. The list shows 492 offers for tours to Poland. Well, not much for a neighboring country, for example, there are 2342 offers for Finland tours. Prague - 1942, France - 2727, Spain - 2701, Italy - 2627, Sweden - 1480 and so on.
The closest country by the number of tour offers is - haha- Australia. 496 offers.
No surprise really. Poland is doing a great effort to position itself as an unfriendly nation. I certainly don't buy the "warmly welcomed' part. I bet most of Russian tourists in Poland have Polish roots, otherwise buying such a tour seems sort of extravagant.

Hee, nice to see that Estonia beeing one of the friendliest nation,....with a over 1200 offers,(especially for a size of a country)......:)

Flamming_Python

03-03-2010, 12:44 PM

Hee, nice to see that Estonia beeing one of the friendliest nation,....with a over 1200 offers,(especially for a size of a country)......:)

Well it's St. Petersburg after all; Estonia is the closest neighbouring country. What's more St. Petersburg is on the high-brow end of things; hence all the tours to rich European countries. In order to gauge Russian tourists interest in Poland it might be better to measure some lower-income level regions closer to Poland such as Pskov, Bryansk, Kaliningrad, etc... There could also be Russian tourists originating from Baltics or Ukraine/Belarus.

Derbedeu

03-03-2010, 12:55 PM

Since you've brought it up, rural population proportion to urban population is another factor; in Russia over 80% of the population live in the cities; can you compare that to Brazil?

According to most statistics, Russia's urban population is 73%, rural is 27%.

http://www.gks.ru/free_doc/2007/b07_12/05-01.htm

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/russia_statistics.html#68

For Brazil, it's 86% urbanized.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/brazil_statistics.html#68

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html

Though to be fair, urbanization isn't really indicative of standard of living or development (for example Switzerland, Germany, and Italy, are 73%, 74%, and 68% urbanized, but no one would classify them as poor or underdeveloped).

Switek

03-03-2010, 01:07 PM

Swine flu and "mostly Ukrainians". No "thousands of Russians". Sorry.

Orly?

Najpierw pojawiły się problemy wizowe. Potem szalejący kryzys zahamował napływ turystów ze Wschodu do Zakopanego. Jak będzie w tym roku, po informacjach o pandemii grypy na Ukrainie? - Nie mamy się czego obawiać. Rosjanie i Ukraińcy dopiszą - twierdzą górale.

direct Google translation:

First, there were visa problems. Then he stopped the raging crisis influx of tourists from the East to Zakopane. How will this year, after information about pandemic influenza in Ukraine? - We have nothing to fear. Russians and Ukrainians append - say mountaineers.

Switek

03-03-2010, 01:09 PM

Oh, really? http://www.tour-spb.ru/ shows what St. Petersburg tour companies offer. The list shows 492 offers for tours to Poland. Well, not much for a neighboring country, for example, there are 2342 offers for Finland tours. Prague - 1942, France - 2727, Spain - 2701, Italy - 2627, Sweden - 1480 and so on.

The closest country by the number of tour offers is - haha- Australia. 496 offers.

No surprise really. Poland is doing a great effort to position itself as an unfriendly nation. I certainly don't buy the "warmly welcomed' part. I bet most of Russian tourists in Poland have Polish roots, otherwise buying such a tour seems sort of extravagant.

Do you have clue what private tourism is? Most Polish highlanders sells their seats directly vie private channels.

Eye

03-03-2010, 02:07 PM

bla bla bla ... bla bla. I the most big.

Red Templar appeared. It's time to close thread.

cordel

03-03-2010, 02:11 PM

Do you have clue what private tourism is? Most Polish highlanders sells their seats directly vie private channels.

This means that it is virtually non-existant. The number of tours sold through private channels is hardly noticeable comparing to standard well advertised tours.

Sure, some people go to Poland. Short visits of Kaliningrad residents? - Sure. Russian citizens of Polish orgins? - No doubt. Mass Russian tourism? - Stop this BS please it is not even funny.

Red Templar

03-03-2010, 02:43 PM

Red Templar appeared. It's time to close thread.must close the stream?
Why?
plumbers offended? lol
sorry, but I have only used the facts! ;)
in contrast to the rube with tin sabelkami!;) lol
==========
when you get the technology of mounting the toilet in space - come, let's talk about Russia's lag behind in this matter! lol
and until that happens, your destiny -to sit quietly as a mouse.

Hilbert

03-03-2010, 02:47 PM

Why? I'm sure Russians enjoy a much bigger scale of personal freedom than Americans for example.

Ataman, many of us are still waiting for you explain this statement. Or are you just going to make a "hit and run" with such a bloated claim as this and refuse to comment further?

Switek

03-03-2010, 02:55 PM

This means that it is virtually non-existant. The number of tours sold through private channels is hardly noticeable comparing to standard well advertised tours.

Sure, some people go to Poland. Short visits of Kaliningrad residents? - Sure. Russian citizens of Polish orgins? - No doubt. Mass Russian tourism? - Stop this BS please it is not even funny.

Few thousands every year is huble number comparing to hundred thousands in other directions but exists. Your personal bias do not change it.

cmc

03-03-2010, 02:57 PM

I've just made a quick run through this thread... and I can positively say one thing: my head hearts

Red Templar

03-03-2010, 03:07 PM

Ataman, many of us are still waiting for you explain this statement. Or are you just going to make a "hit and run" with such a bloated claim as this and refuse to comment further?now stuck ...
fascist "Patriot Act" is more than covers your interest.
it is not conceivable curtailment of personal freedoms! like absolutely is unacceptable in the new Russia!
Censorship is stronger than their Communist countries!
====
I can add an aspect:
Of course, for different Americans have different cuts freedoms ...
As one interesting guy:
worse, the most difficult to live in the real America "the white man, middle-aged, hetero******"
accusations of "****** HARASSMENT" and a violation of "tolerance", waiting for him at every corner

Ataman

03-03-2010, 03:12 PM

Ataman, many of us are still waiting for you explain this statement. Or are you just going to make a "hit and run" with such a bloated claim as this and refuse to comment further?

I've already made a short explanation to Switek. But I'm surprised that this is such a big issue to some people.
And please explain what's supposed to be 'bloated' about this? Some Americans might think that freedom is a unique American thing, but it certainly isn't. I'm not attacking America here.

€: Red Templar just said it (in a provocative way, but nevertheless with some truth I believe)