Turkey to recall US envoy following 'genocide' vote

[dracon49]

Despite Clinton's efforts, congressional panel votes to label as 'genocide' World War One-era massacre of Armenians by Turkish forces Yitzhak Benhorin, ******* Published: 03.04.10, 23:28 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)

WASHINGTON – Turkey announced that it will recall its ambassador to the US after a congressional panel voted Thursday to label as "genocide" the World War One-era massacre of Armenians by Turkish forces, despite pressure from the Obama administration and Ankara to drop the matter.

The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee voted 23-22 to approve the non-binding resolution, clearing it for consideration by the full House. But it was unclear whether the measure will get a floor vote.




It calls on President Barack Obama to ensure US policy formally refers to the massacre as genocide, putting him in a tight spot.

A senior Turkish official said the resolution will severely damage Turkish-US relations and jeopardize the normalization of ties between Turkey and Armenia.


http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/24012010/2448633/DCHH107.jpg_wa.jpg
Turkish MPs protest against vote in Washington (Photo: AP)

On the one side is NATO ally Turkey, which rejects calling the events genocide. On the other side is an important US Armenian-American constituency and their backers in Congress ahead of congressional elections in November.

Turkey had warned its ties with the United States would be damaged and Ankara's efforts to normalize relations with Armenia could be harmed if the resolution were approved.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton telephoned House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Howard Berman, a fellow Democrat, on Wednesday to argue the measure could harm efforts to normalize Turkish-Armenian relations, the White House said.

Turkey and Armenia signed a protocol last year to normalize relations but it has yet to pass through the parliament of either country. Obama called Turkish President Abdullah Gul on Wednesday to urge quick ratification, the White House said.

Despite Clinton's appeal, Berman went ahead with a committee debate and a vote. He said Turkey was a "vital" ally but "nothing justifies Turkey's turning a blind eye to the reality of the Armenian genocide."






Muslim Turkey accepts that many Christian Armenians were killed by Ottoman forces but denies that up to 1.5 million died and that it amounted to genocide -- a term employed by many Western historians and some foreign parliaments.

Congressional opponents expressed concern about harming ties with Turkey, whose help the United States needs to solve confrontations from Iraq to Iran and Afghanistan.




http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3858211,00.html




I think it was the right thing to do(to approve the bill)even if means that the US-Turkey ties will be tense.

[datalink16]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175421-House-Panel-Approves-Armenian-Genocide-Measure

[Excalibur]

personally, i prefer that this time congress rejects the recognition of genocide. This issue must pop up again and again every 2-3 years and become hot issue in media. This way more people in US and all around the world will have the chance to be aware of one the most terrible crimes in humanity's history.

[Zeev]

Germany recognized the Shoah, and now it is an exemplary democracy and one of the most modern and developped nation in the world. In any case the recognition of nazi genocide harmed to Germany and germans, rather the contrary.

Armenian genocide was not as huge as shoah in terms of death numbers, but it doesn't change that millions of armenians were murdered and that it has a real impact on such a small people. Turkey should take an exemple of Germany.

[RoyB]

Unbelievable.
The fact that the Turks even refuse to recognize that such events took place in the past is infuriating.
They should just toughen up, acknowledge that this crime had occurred, and show the world that they are no way like what had used to be where they stand right now.

[pocoloco]

Yip, still such a touchy subject for Turks. Doing more harm denying it than admitting the facts. :petting:

[Clearday-TRForce]

Unbelievable.
The fact that the Turks even refuse to recognize that such events took place in the past is infuriating.
They should just toughen up, acknowledge that this crime had occurred, and show the world that they are no way like what had used to be where they stand right now.

Unbelievable you try to act as a historian without any licence that you have. Put yourself a same wagon who have all prejudices against Turks. This crime had occoured commonly and we do not call it "genocide". You push it but thanks, we don't want to buy your pennies.We know who we are than yours.

The other funny things there are million mass massacres/genocides but you only talk this one. This is very strange for clevers.

[dracon49]

Germany recognized the Shoah, and now it is an exemplary democracy and one of the most modern and developped nation in the world. In any case the recognition of nazi genocide harmed to Germany and germans, rather the contrary.

Armenian genocide was not as huge as shoah in terms of death numbers, but it doesn't change that millions of armenians were murdered and that it has a real impact on such a small people. Turkey should take an exemple of Germany.
What about the Knesset? I hope they will approve such a bill. In the past some lawmakers tried to pass a bill, but the government refused ,because they didn't want to make the ties bad...but now they are bad, so we need to follow the US and approve such a bill....

[4X4Driver]

It's all about votes...not the historical facts. Nothing will ever change... except the gov't in Turkey :)

[RoyB]

Unbelievable you try to act as a historian without any licence that you have. Put yourself a same wagon who have all prejudices against Turks. This crime had occoured commonly and we do not call it "genocide". You push it but thanks, we don't want to buy your pennies.We know who we are than yours.
I really don't get why acknowledging that this thing even occurred is that hard. its not like modern day Turkey is in anyway similar to what the Ottoman Empire used to be.

The other funny things there are million mass massacres/genocides but you only talk this one. This is very strange for clevers.
Not really.
I don't remember speaking of this until I saw this single thread, and there isn't really a huge participation of people in here either.

[dracon49]

It's all about votes...not the historical facts. Nothing will ever change... except the gov't in Turkey :)
If it's all about votes why do you care about it and get pissed and calling your Ambassador from the US?

[Clearday-TRForce]

I really don't get why acknowledging that this thing even occurred is that hard. its not like modern day Turkey is in anyway similar to what the Ottoman Empire used to be.

Not really.
I don't remember speaking of this until I saw this single thread, and there isn't really a huge participation of people in here either.


Dear RoyB,

Otomans are our ancestor and we historically know they have not killed people in genocide agenda. Sure we know there were killings but at both side. What we criticise you who support Armenian claims is in one sided blame. We have thousands documents,proof that we had not make a genocide but politicians under lobby control (surely, lots of money on table - bribe) tend to be a historian beyond being a politician. Could you tell me why is it like that? what is the true intention behind historical truths?

I am %100 sure, US will never pass this...they just give some sugar to Armenians in the beginning of film. Politics,politics and politics.

[Clearday-TRForce]

If it's all about votes why do you care about it and get pissed and calling your Ambassador from the US?


As a swift answer against US politician's attempts under Armenian lobby activities. It is nothing about history it is about an invesment in following elections and considerable money taken by Armenians. That is it.

[frenchy]

I will be the devil's advocate, but a lot of countries made atrocities and didn't recognize them.
Of course it isn't an excuse.

[Zeev]

This crime had occoured commonly and we do not call it "genocide"..

This "crime" presents all the aspects of a genocide, especially the most important, the organisation.

The murder of armenian population were planed and organized, as well as the deportations and the executions in other places, as in Syria, which was at the time an Ottoman province, all were clearly the parts of a plan, and clearly nothing to do with spontaneous massacres. Even Nazis took exemple on the elimination of armenian populations by ottoman empire to inspire their final solution for the jews. The notable difference is that germans pushed their plan way far, mostly because of "modern" and industrialised killing methods. On that aspect, armenian genocide was more archaic, hopefully for armenians.

There are enough evidences and documentaries avalible about the armenian genocide today that made ridiculous any tentative of denying, and the fact that turks still stands on the deny position doesn't change these histoical facts.

[Zeev]

I will be the devil's advocate, but a lot of countries made atrocities and didn't recognize them.
Of course it isn't an excuse.


Indeed, but the reason why there's a "focus" on the armenian gnocide recognition is probably because it is the 2nd or 3rd after the shoah in 20th in terms of number of death..

[Clearday-TRForce]

This "crime" presents all the aspects of a genocide, especially the most important, the organisation.

The murder of armenian population were planed and organized, as well as the deportations and the executions in other places, as in Syria, which was at the time an Ottoman province, all were clearly the parts of a plan, and clearly nothing to do with spontaneous massacres. Even Nazis took exemple on the elimination of armenian populations by ottoman empire to inspire their final solution for the jews. The notable difference is that germans pushed their plan way far, mostly because of "modern" and industrialised killing methods. On that aspect, armenian genocide was more archaic, hopefully for armenians.

There are enough evidences and documentaries avalible about the armenian genocide today that made ridiculous any tentative of denying, and the fact that turks still stands on the deny position doesn't change these histoical facts.


There is enough documents and evidence this is not a genocide. It is a fully fabricated so-called genocide that some politicians under Armenian lobbies pressure take a decision behalf of historians as well. Surely no any serious,reputable historians take care of it. Politicians can not write a history.

[4X4Driver]

This "crime" presents all the aspects of a genocide, especially the most important, the organisation.

The murder of armenian population were planed and organized, as well as the deportations and the executions in other places, as in Syria, which was at the time an Ottoman province, all were clearly the parts of a plan, and clearly nothing to do with spontaneous massacres. Even Nazis took exemple on the elimination of armenian populations by ottoman empire to inspire their final solution for the jews. The notable difference is that germans pushed their plan way far, mostly because of "modern" and industrialised killing methods. On that aspect, armenian genocide was more archaic, hopefully for armenians.

There are enough evidences and documentaries avalible about the armenian genocide today that made ridiculous any tentative of denying, and the fact that turks still stands on the deny position doesn't change these histoical facts.

Yep...these are the typical propagandistic allegations of the armenian side...but there is another side of the story..which is more convinsing that these allegations are false.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Indeed, but the reason why there's a "focus" on the armenian gnocide recognition is probably because it is the 2nd or 3rd after the shoah in 20th in terms of number of death..

You don't know about numbers. There is no mass graveyards in Turkey, so where all deaths? air? where is your fabricated 1,5 ml Armenian deaths?

the other funny thing there is no intention bringing other mass killings/genocide in front of US congre, such as Algeria genocide against French? why don't we hear such a thing? Where all native americans gone? indians by brits? hey Iraqians? If you continue to look these cases in one-sided way,mood that noone take it serious

[Zeev]

There is enough documents and evidence this is not a genocide. It is a fully fabricated so-called genocide that some politicians under Armenian lobbies pressure take a decision behalf of historians as well. Surely no any serious,reputable historians take care of it. Politicians can not write a history.

LOL @ the "armenian lobby", I was ignoring that these armenians had so much power :)

Funny thing is that I've already read the same about the "jewish lobby" and shoah.

[4X4Driver]

If it's all about votes why do you care about it and get pissed and calling your Ambassador from the US?

A agree we've been exaggerating this issue way to much and giving more attention than it deserves...it shouldn't be like this.

[Zeev]

You don't know about numbers. There is no mass graveyards in Turkey, so where all deaths? air? where is your fabricated 1,5 ml Armenian deaths?


Are you kidding? If the world knows about the shoah, it is because soviet and US forces entered into death camps and collected evidences, if germany didn't had to retreat so fast, they would have all the time to destroy the evidences.

None of this happened on turkish soil, no foreign powers were present to make any constatations. And now in 2010, nearly one century after the genocide, we can imagine that turkish authorities had way enough time to make disappear any traces, and anyway, would turkey admit an international commission to inspect the places? I don't think so.

[Kutuz]

Armenian genocide?!

[4X4Driver]

Are you kidding? If the world knows about the shoah, it is because soviet and US forces entered into death camps and collected evidences, if germany didn't had to retreat so fast, they would have all the time to destroy the evidences.

None of this happened on turkish soil, no foreign powers were present to make any constatations. And now in 2010, nearly once century after the genocide, we can imagine that turkish authorities had way enough time to make disappear any traces, and anyway, would turkey admit an international commission to inspect the places? I don't think so.

Interesting new "approach"..should we ow this to your deep acknowledge on the issue?

With your "logic" nothing ever happened there..period. Because all f the arnemian claims depends on the so called reports of the occupation powers and their ammassadors spread around the whole country.

You know that Turkey was under an occupation between 1919 and 1922 right?? :lol:

[Zeev]

Interesting new "approach"..should we ow this to your deep acknowledge on the issue?

With your "logic" nothing ever happened there..period. Because all f the arnemian claims depends on the so called reports of the occupation powers and their ammassadors spread around the whole country.

You know that Turkey was under an occupation between 1919 and 1922 right?? :lol:

Sincerly, the fact that we can easilly think that a lot of traces were intentionally hidden don't change a lot the question because as I said it before, there are already enough documents and evidences avalible.. At least, in our democracies.

About the occupation, not all parts of turkey were occupied, and also, I don't think that the occupiers cared a lot about armenian genocide investigations, they didn't occupied turkey in that goal.

[4X4Driver]

Sincerly, the fact that we can easilly think that a lot of traces were intentionally hidden don't change a lot the question because as I said it before, there are already enough documents and evidences avalible.. At least, in our democracies.

And about the occupation, not all parts of turkey were occupied, and also, I don't think that the occupiers cared a lot about armenian genocide investigations, they didn't occupied turkey in that goal.

Yeah right..capital of the Empire was occupied. You probably haven't heard of the trials of the more then 1700 people and hanging of 70 some of them in relation with this issue also have you..?

Admitt it..you know nothing about it...your stance is due to obvious reasons..just like the politicians in this case. :)

[Sumadinac]

So, where all these Armenians disappeared?

[Mackie]

None of this happened on turkish soil, no foreign powers were present to make any constatations.

The German archives?

[Clearday-TRForce]

So, where all these Armenians disappeared?


Noone knows maybe Zeevs know it, please tell him,he will show the place where 1,5 ml graves. xD

[dracon49]

You need to have graves to have evidence? Maybe they were burnt or something like that....?

[Hollis]

Let's keep the stupidity out of this topic. Obviously it is a complex and very heated one. Probably like everything else, it is a crisis today, and over time it will slip from everyone's memory and we will all move on.

Maybe we should rewrite the little saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words we go to war over."

[ArmeniaR]

Noone knows maybe Zeevs know it, please tell him,he will show the place where 1,5 ml graves. xD

Who said nooone knows?? if you act like you don't know, it don't mean ''no one knows''... and many of those killed people ware thrown in rivers...

4x4driver. What is the other side of the story? the turkish genocide?

[Zeev]

Noone knows maybe Zeevs know it, please tell him,he will show the place where 1,5 ml graves. xD

How pathetic.. genocides rarely leave graves to their victims. :cantbeli:

Denying historical facts is a thing, insulting victims memories is an another, shame on you.

[Sumadinac]

Noone knows maybe Zeevs know it, please tell him,he will show the place where 1,5 ml graves. xD

About 1.5 milion Armenians disapeared from eastern Turkey and you're telling me that no one knows? Given the number of Armenians in 1926 in Armenia it's impossible that a huge number of them emigrated to communist Armenia.

[Zeev]

The German archives?

Not with the same methods that we could use today, not even with 45' methods. I doubt that even german archives saw everything, probably only the visible part of the iceberg.

[Zeev]

About 1.5 milion Armenians disapeared from eastern Turkey and you're telling me that no one knows? Given the number of Armenians in 1926 in Armenia it's impossible that a huge number of them emigrated to communist Armenia.

Let them talk, when it's about 6000 of their "brothers" in Srebrenica, it's a genocide not a massacre, but when 1,5 millions armenians disapear, these are massacres "from both parts"......

[4X4Driver]

So, where all these Armenians disappeared?

Many took up arms against the Turks in the occupation armies and on their own in order to create ethnically cleansed (from the Turks and Kurds) armenian state in the N.East of the country and they've paid the consequences of this...rest was relocated in other places of the Ottoman Empire.

[Sumadinac]

Many took up arms against the Turks in the occupation armies and on their own in order to create ethnically cleansed (from the Turks and Kurds) armenian state in the N.East of the country and they've paid the consequences of this...rest was relocated in other places of the Ottoman Empire.

Where are their descendants? There should be millions of them today.

[JJHH]

personally, i prefer that this time congress rejects the recognition of genocide. This issue must pop up again and again every 2-3 years and become hot issue in media. This way more people in US and all around the world will have the chance to be aware of one the most terrible crimes in humanity's history.

As soon as Turkey admits, the issue is largely over.

[kamaz]

I always found Turks to be the most nationalistic people I've ever met, more nationalistic even than Puerto Ricans. They actually have a law on the books that forbids anyone to insult the 'Turkishness' of the country, whatever that means. So I can see why they will not admit to any wrong doing of their Ottoman predecessors. At this point, the issue is over semantics and phrasing of it.

is it a genocide or 'just' a massacre? Either way, Turkey needs to come to terms with its past actions. Anyone that says, 'good thing we didnt do a genocide there, just a huge massacre', is a damn fool.

[Zeev]

I always found Turks to be the most nationalistic people I've ever met, more nationalistic even than Puerto Ricans. They actually have a law on the books that forbids anyone to insult the 'Turkishness' of the country, whatever that means. So I can see why they will not admit to any wrong doing of their Ottoman predecessors. At this point, the issue is over semantics and phrasing of it.

is it a genocide or 'just' a massacre? Either way, Turkey needs to come to terms with its past actions. Anyone that says, 'good thing we didnt do a genocide there, just a huge massacre', is a damn fool.

Freedom of speech strong!

[dracon49]

I always found Turks to be the most nationalistic people I've ever met, more nationalistic even than Puerto Ricans. They actually have a law on the books that forbids anyone to insult the 'Turkishness' of the country, whatever that means. So I can see why they will not admit to any wrong doing of their Ottoman predecessors. At this point, the issue is over semantics and phrasing of it.

is it a genocide or 'just' a massacre? Either way, Turkey needs to come to terms with its past actions. Anyone that says, 'good thing we didnt do a genocide there, just a huge massacre', is a damn fool.
I thought that Turkey is a democracy and that they have Freedom of speech....

[kamaz]

Article 301 (Turkish Penal Code)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Article 301 is a controversial article of the Turkish Penal Code making it illegal to insult Turkey, the Turkish ethnicity, or Turkish government institutions. It took effect on June 1, 2005, and was introduced as part of a package of penal-law reform in the process preceding the opening of negotiations for Turkish membership of the European Union (EU), in order to bring Turkey up to the Union standards.[1][2] The original version of the article made it a crime to "insult Turkishness"; in April 30, 2008, the article was amended to change "Turkishness" into "the Turkish nation". Since this article became law, charges have been brought in more than 60 cases, some of which are high-profile.[3] The Great Jurists Union (Turkish: Büyük Hukukçular Birliği) headed by Kemal Kerinçsiz, a Turkish lawyer, is "behind nearly all of Article 301 trials".[4] Kerinçsiz himself is responsible for forty of the trials,[5] including the high-profile ones.

[Eventine]

I always found Turks to be the most nationalistic people I've ever met, more nationalistic even than Puerto Ricans. They actually have a law on the books that forbids anyone to insult the 'Turkishness' of the country, whatever that means. So I can see why they will not admit to any wrong doing of their Ottoman predecessors. At this point, the issue is over semantics and phrasing of it.


To some extent, Turks are the "odd ones out" in the region, given that their heritage derives from a group of nomadic Central Asian invaders in historic times, who largely displaced the native ethnic identities of Anatolia proper with that of their own. I feel that there was a perennial sense of "Us vs. Them" during the early 20th centuries of Turkish history, not only from the fact that they were Islamic, but also from the fact that they were non-European (Armenia, Serbia, and Greece are all, of course, European, though only the last is considered Western). Turkish is an Altaic language, in stark contrast to the earlier languages of Anatolia, and also to that of the Muslim "core" (which is Semitic).

When nationalist scholars were working all of this out in the 1800s and 1900s, the differences between the declining Ottomans and the rising Europeans were probably emphasized on an ethnic, cultural, and racial level. This distinction was picked up by Turkish nationalists, who felt besieged by a sea of Others, and their fears were validated when these "Others" cooperated with Ottoman enemies in order to realize their own ethnic-nationalist goals at the territorial expanse of the Turkish state. To many Turkish revolutionaries, then, ethnic cleansing became "justified" - as it would later become "justified" in the view of, for example, the Nazis. Of course, here there were no ovens or death showers, just deportations and massacres, but the end goal was the same - the creation of an ethnically "pure" nation.

[Zeev]

here there were no ovens or death showers, just deportations and massacres, but the end goal was the same - the creation of an ethnically "pure" nation.

QFT, as I said before, that's the key point of a genocide definition; the planification.

[kamaz]

When nationalist scholars were working all of this out in the 1800s and 1900s, the differences between the declining Ottomans and the rising Europeans were probably emphasized on an ethnic, cultural, and racial level. This distinction was picked up by Turkish nationalists, who felt besieged by a sea of Others, and their fears were validated when these "Others" cooperated with Ottoman enemies in order to realize their own ethnic-nationalist goals at the territorial expanse of the Turkish state. To many Turkish revolutionaries, then, ethnic cleansing became "justified" - as it would later become "justified" in the view of, for example, the Nazis. Of course, here there were no ovens or death showers, just deportations and massacres, but the end goal was the same - the creation of an ethnically "pure" nation.

interesting theory, but I think its always a bad idea to compare anything to Nazi or Nazi-related in lieu of Godwins Law. Turks have been accomodating to minorities and other ethnic groups, Jews for instance cant really complain about their status in Turkey especially compared to their history in European lands.

so were the Turkish actions there 'genocide'? Who knows? at this point this whole topic is so diluted with politics and nationalist agendas that the truth is buried in the sand. However, to the memories of living Armenian families who lost so many people in that period, its not any consolation that Turkey merely admits to a 'massacre' rather than a 'genocide'. Its a point that only serves to benefit the living, not the dead.

ps - just wanted to add that my historical knowledge on this matter is very limited, so feel free to poke holes in my statements. thanks.

[Eventine]

interesting theory, but I think its always a bad idea to compare anything to Nazi or Nazi-related in lieu of Godwins Law. Turks have been accomodating to minorities and other ethnic groups, Jews for instance cant really complain about their status in Turkey especially compared to their history in European lands.

so were the Turkish actions there 'genocide'? Who knows? at this point this whole topic is so diluted with politics and nationalist agendas that the truth is buried in the sand. However, to the memories of living Armenian families who lost so many people in that period, its not any consolation that Turkey merely admits to a 'massacre' rather than a 'genocide'. Its a point that only serves to benefit the living, not the dead.

ps - just wanted to add that my historical knowledge on this matter is very limited, so feel free to poke holes in my statements. thanks.

Indeed, the Nazis have been so vilified as a force of primal evil that comparing anything to them has become the direst of insults to the thing being compared. Still, an objective view of history would recognize, I think, that the Nazis were an extreme manifestation of political trends at the time. The desire for a "pure" ethnic nation was widespread in the 19th and 20th centuries, for which many people died.

[4X4Driver]

interesting theory, but I think its always a bad idea to compare anything to Nazi or Nazi-related in lieu of Godwins Law. Turks have been accomodating to minorities and other ethnic groups, Jews for instance cant really complain about their status in Turkey especially compared to their history in European lands.

so were the Turkish actions there 'genocide'? Who knows? at this point this whole topic is so diluted with politics and nationalist agendas that the truth is buried in the sand. However, to the memories of living Armenian families who lost so many people in that period, its not any consolation that Turkey merely admits to a 'massacre' rather than a 'genocide'. Its a point that only serves to benefit the living, not the dead.

ps - just wanted to add that my historical knowledge on this matter is very limited, so feel free to poke holes in my statements. thanks.

It is not as complicated as the others tries to make it sound like my friend. They've betrayed the ppl they were living with at their weakest times by joining the wrong side in a war and they lost. What happens here is the same as all the sour losers of a war does...whine.

It was a war... they made their choice..obviously it was the wrong one. No use to whine after almost 100 year later.

[4X4Driver]

Article 301 (Turkish Penal Code)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Article 301 is a controversial article of the Turkish Penal Code making it illegal to insult Turkey, the Turkish ethnicity, or Turkish government institutions. It took effect on June 1, 2005, and was introduced as part of a package of penal-law reform in the process preceding the opening of negotiations for Turkish membership of the European Union (EU), in order to bring Turkey up to the Union standards.[1][2] The original version of the article made it a crime to "insult Turkishness"; in April 30, 2008, the article was amended to change "Turkishness" into "the Turkish nation". Since this article became law, charges have been brought in more than 60 cases, some of which are high-profile.[3] The Great Jurists Union (Turkish: Büyük Hukukçular Birliği) headed by Kemal Kerinçsiz, a Turkish lawyer, is "behind nearly all of Article 301 trials".[4] Kerinçsiz himself is responsible for forty of the trials,[5] including the high-profile ones.

Such laws exists in some EU countries too..it's just easier to point at other's though ;)

[kamaz]

It was a war... they made their choice..obviously it was the wrong one. No use to whine after almost 100 year later.

that's simplifying it to the extreme. It wasnt just a choice to join the 'wrong side'. There was clearly a large scale massacre of civilians there. I hope you understand the Armenian anger and dismay at this kind of attitude toward a very real tragedy, the view that it was simply 'part of war', or that they chose the 'wrong side'. Cmon man.

[4X4Driver]

that's simplifying it to the extreme. It wasnt just a choice to join the 'wrong side'. There was clearly a large scale massacre of civilians there. I hope you understand the Armenian anger and dismay at this kind of attitude toward a very real tragedy, the view that it was simply 'part of war', or that they chose the 'wrong side'. Cmon man.

Of course I understand..and they have to understand it also that they've brought that onto themselves. If they didn't fall for the promisses of the invading powers' "ethnically pure armenian state" in the riuns of the Ottoman Empire, they would not join them in the fight against the Turks....and then this would not happen. Their actions for creating a "ethnically pure armenian state" is the beginning of these problems. We're not going to apologize for defending ourselves....never.

[Loke2]

Such laws exists in some EU countries too..it's just easier to point at other's though ;)
Yeah, right; others do it and therefore we can also do it. That's always a winning argument isn't it? My 8-year old son uses it all the time...;-)

[kamaz]

Such laws exists in some EU countries too..it's just easier to point at other's though ;)

the only remotely similar law in Europe that I can think of is the Austrian Holocaust speech law, a completely retarded and counter productive law that goes against everything freedom of speech stands for.

[Loke2]

Of course I understand..and they have to understand it also that they've brought that onto themselves. If they didn't fall for the promisses of the invading powers' "ethnically pure armenian state" in the riuns of the Ottoman Empire, they would not join them in the fight against the Turks....and then this would not happen. Their actions for creating a "ethnically pure armenian state" is the beginning of these problems. We're not going to apologize for defending ourselves....never.
Did the Ottomans massacre a large number of Armenians or not? Was a massacre needed to defend the Ottoman empire?

Two wrongs does not make one right -- You cannot blame your own errors on the Armenians, but only on yourself...;-)

[Loke2]

Many took up arms against the Turks in the occupation armies and on their own in order to create ethnically cleansed (from the Turks and Kurds) armenian state in the N.East of the country and they've paid the consequences of this...rest was relocated in other places of the Ottoman Empire.
Does "Take up arms against the Turks" justify massacres? I will not go into a discussion on whether it qualifies as a genocide or not -- however there is no doubt that "massacre" is the least to describe what happened. In my opinion there is nothing that justify a massacre -- nothing. If you and many other Turks really believe that the massacres were justified then you are worse off then I ever imagined. This makes me deeply worried.

[Ulytau]

As i know my grandgrand father and relative became part of resistance forces of Turkish Army too ''grandgrandfather lead as i my relatives are saying he had a madrasah and called Mullah too'' what they said to their kids not very good things,even we have enough archives about what local people were live etc.

First i wanna tell 1-2 thing about mistakes of current government i just wonder Historian Mehmet Perinçek check and have kilos of original archives from various countries ''he work in Russia for archives too as i remember'' Armed Forces have serious archive too,they start everything 1 week ago ''maybe few'' but after kind of things i like checkin acts of some toil of sorry newspapers,i notice some of em nearly didnt write NOTHING about this issue except a Turkish Imam open congress with praying,Obama tried to stop etc etc etc. and they continue their fairy tales. (I take picture of every Turkish newspapers of today)

as i read from news right now Hilary Clinton said this issue wont go next stage (Anyone can give a little info about American system first House Panel than goes to Parliament than goes to President?) seriously maybe government need to stop speaking to us and start contactin with some Turkish historians especially who have important names ''like non-Turk historians who were thinking Turks did ''genocide'' and change their ideas'' and stop b.tching to them because their politicial ideas.

Jewish Lobby of USA offered many times to Turkish politicians for a Turkish Lobby ''as i read from a Turkish journalist who have really close Israeli friends and strong ties'' and offer help to em ''like their system etc'' i believe after last population count of USA when they seen Turkic population in USA maybe some politicians will open their eyes..

I read Turkish text of this issue too honestly i found pretty found especially some articles :)

[4X4Driver]

Does "Take up arms against the Turks" justify massacres? I will not go into a discussion on whether it qualifies as a genocide or not -- however there is no doubt that "massacre" is the least to describe what happened. In my opinion there is nothing that justify a massacre -- nothing. If you and many other Turks really believe that the massacres were justified then you are worse off then I ever imagined. This makes me deeply worried.


No worries mate..we have it all under control. You will not find a Turk that can't use the word massacre to describe what happened..but they all will also add that it was survival war for both side and both side killed. It'll never qualify as a genocide scientifically.


Yeah, right; others do it and therefore we can also do it. That's always a winning argument isn't it? My 8-year old son uses it all the time...;-)

Well..after all, we ARE trying to adjust ourselves to the EU rules :)

[Loke2]

No worries mate..we have it all under control. You will not find a Turk that can't use the word massacre to describe what happened..but they all will also add that it was survival war for both side and both side killed. It'll never qualify as a genocide scientifically.


You did not really respond to the contents of my post. I did not say that the Turks "can't use the word massacre." To me it seemed that you tried to justify the massacres in your previous post. That's what I reacted to. Also in this post you seem to justify the massacres by claiming that "it was a survival war for both side and both side killed." I stand by my first statement: Nothing -- NOTHING can justify a massacre.

I will save the genocide question for some other time, I need to do some further reading before I can form an opinion on that.


Well..after all, we ARE trying to adjust ourselves to the EU rules :)
Is that supposed to be an intelligent argument in this debate? :roll:

[4X4Driver]

Mate...you worry too much..no good for you.

It is easy to speak in comfy chair in 2010...

Yeah..do that..you need to read more on that.

[Loke2]

Mate...you worry too much..no good for you.

It is easy to speak in comfy chair in 2010...

What kind of BS is this?

Do you still want to justify a massacre? "it is easy to speak in comfy chair in 2010.."?

Why is it so hard to admit that horrible crimes were committed? Why do you try to justify this?

And why can't this be discussed in an open manner in Turkey?

Mate, you and your country got some serious issues -- I hope you resolve them, sooner rather than later.

[Aor]

It is not as complicated as the others tries to make it sound like my friend. They've betrayed the ppl they were living with at their weakest times by joining the wrong side in a war and they lost. What happens here is the same as all the sour losers of a war does...whine.

It was a war... they made their choice..obviously it was the wrong one. No use to whine after almost 100 year later.

Bull. They "betrayed" no one. Turning against an occupier is the right and natural thing to do.

Whatever the Turks did massacre, slaughter, genocide - whatever you want to call it - on more of a million people, men, women an children is never justified.

Frankly THAT is what chills me to the bone more when I hear this from Turks. It is not the horror of what happened to the Armenians, it is not the act that disturbs, it is the term people use to describe the happening that concerns them. The rivers of blood are justified. Massacre simply "happens" in a war and it is simply part of warfare.

Let me ask this. If a society feels no remorse on such acts. If a society deems such acts natural and even necessary for the "good of the nation", then what guarantee is there that similar future acts won't be repeated using the same rhetoric.
Such laws exists in some EU countries too..it's just easier to point at other's though ;)

Name ONE.

[4X4Driver]

So you can justfy the killing of the Turks?


Bull. They "betrayed" no one. Turning against an occupier is the right and natural thing to do.


..but not this? :roll:


Whatever the Turks did massacre, slaughter, genocide - whatever you want to call it - on more of a million people, men, women an children is never justified.

[/QUOTE]

Just cut the BS and say it "We hate you for you survived" :)


Name ONE.

Your country..


Old essay back to haunt tutor
A teacher from the island of Serifos is facing the possibility of being sacked from his job because of an article he wrote in an education magazine 19 years ago, in which he suggested that student parades were outdated.
Kathimerini has learned that the article was read some 10 years ago by a retired army officer who reported the teacher, Christophoros Papaioannou, to the Education Ministry.
The ministry is now investigating whether Papaioannou, 51, displayed in his article a “refusal to recognize the Constitution and a lack of devotion to the homeland and democracy,” which is an offense that he can be fired for. It is not clear why the ministry is now probing something published in 1989.
“It seems like a hoax,” said the primary school teacher. Local educators as well as the State High School Teachers Federation (OLME) have spoken out in support of Papaioannou, who is hopeful that the matter will be closed without any repercussions for him.
http://wk.kathimerini.gr/kathnews/images/dot_clear.gif

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100012_04/12/2008_102724

[Ulytau]

Italy 290-291

Poland 133

Spain 543

Germany 90

Denmark 110

Blah blah and blah.

Now became occupier isnt it part of justifie actions what happen to Turks? Main comments of Turks let em accept and take toy from diaspora btw changes are happen this article too..

Well honestly about news issue i mostly care last joint Turkish&Belgian operation ''Turkish forces didnt join but give information'' in Belgium aganist pkk terroristss

[Aor]

So you can justfy the killing of the Turks?

..but not this? :roll:





Just cut the BS and say it "We hate you for you survived" :)


I justify resistance and uprising against a dynastic regime. You justify massacre and the killings of women and children. So don't even dare compare my thoughts to yours. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
Your country..




http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100012_04/12/2008_102724

Protesting against parades constitutes anything comparable to the "insult of Turkishness". There is no such law in our legal system nor our constitution. The case was ridiculous and as far as I know was dismissed.

Now compare that to your stance on the Armenian Genocide. Remember Hrand Dink? Orhan Pamuk? Let me refresh your memory.


In 2005, after Pamuk made a statement regarding the mass killings of Armenians and Kurds in the Ottoman Empire, a criminal case was opened against the author based on a complaint filed by ultra-nationalist lawyer Kemal Kerinçsiz.[20] The charges were dropped on 22 January 2006. Rallies were held to burn his books.[21] Pamuk has subsequently stated his intent was to draw attention to freedom of expression issues. [edit] Pamuk's statements

The criminal charges against Pamuk resulted from remarks he made during an interview in February 2005 with the Swiss publication Das Magazin, a weekly supplement to a number of Swiss daily newspapers: the Tages-Anzeiger, the Basler Zeitung, the Berner Zeitung and the Solothurner Tagblatt. In the interview, Pamuk stated, "Thirty thousand Kurds have been killed here, and a million Armenians. And almost nobody dares to mention that. So I do."[22] Turkish historians were divided over the remarks.[23]

Pamuk stated that he was consequently subjected to a hate campaign that forced him to flee the country.[24] He returned later in 2005, however, to face the charges against him. In an interview with BBC News, he said that he wanted to defend freedom of speech, which was Turkey's only hope for coming to terms with its history: "What happened to the Ottoman Armenians in 1915 was a major thing that was hidden from the Turkish nation; it was a taboo. But we have to be able to talk about the past."[24]

[edit] Prosecution

In June 2005, Turkey introduced a new penal code including Article 301, which states: "A person who, being a Turk, explicitly insults the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months to three years." Pamuk was retroactively charged with violating this law in the interview he had given four months earlier. In October, after the prosecution had begun, Pamuk reiterated his views in a speech given during an award ceremony in Germany: "I repeat, I said loud and clear that one million Armenians and 30,000 Kurds were killed in Turkey."[25]

Because Pamuk was charged under an ex post facto law, Turkish law required that his prosecution be approved by the Ministry of Justice. A few minutes after Pamuk's trial started on 16 December, the judge found that this approval had not yet been received and suspended the proceedings. In an interview published in the Akşam newspaper the same day, Justice Minister Cemil Çiçek said he had not yet received Pamuk's file but would study it thoroughly once it came.[26]

On 29 December 2005, Turkish state prosecutors dropped the charge that Pamuk insulted Turkey's armed forces, although the charge of "insulting Turkishness" remained.[27]

[edit] International reaction

The charges against Pamuk caused an international outcry and led to questions in some circles about Turkey's proposed entry into the European Union. On 30 November, the European Parliament announced that it would send a delegation of five MEPs, led by Camiel Eurlings, to observe the trial.[28] EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn subsequently stated that the Pamuk case would be a "litmus test" of Turkey's commitment to the EU's membership criteria.

On 1 December, Amnesty International released a statement calling for Article 301 to be repealed and for Pamuk and six other people awaiting trial under the act to be freed.[29] PEN American Center also denounced the charges against Pamuk, stating: "PEN finds it extraordinary that a state that has ratified both the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights, both of which see freedom of expression as central, should have a Penal Code that includes a clause that is so clearly contrary to these very same principles."[30]

On 13 December, eight world-renowned authors—José Saramago, Gabriel García Márquez, Günter Grass, Umberto Eco, Carlos Fuentes, Juan Goytisolo, John Updike and Mario Vargas Llosa—issued a joint statement supporting Pamuk and decrying the charges against him as a violation of human rights.[31]

[edit] Charges dropped

On 22 January 2006, the Justice Ministry refused to issue an approval of the prosecution, saying that they had no authority to open a case against Pamuk under the new penal code.[32] With the trial in the local court, it was ruled the next day that the case could not continue without Justice Ministry approval.[33] Pamuk's lawyer, Haluk İnanıcı, subsequently confirmed that charges had been dropped.

The announcement occurred in a week when the EU was scheduled to begin a review of the Turkish justice system.[33] [edit] Aftermath

EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn welcomed the dropping of charges, saying "This is obviously good news for Mr. Pamuk, but it's also good news for freedom of expression in Turkey".[34] However, some EU representatives expressed disappointment that the justice ministry had rejected the prosecution on a technicality rather than on principle. An Ankara-based EU diplomat reportedly said, "It is good the case has apparently been dropped, but the justice ministry never took a clear position or gave any sign of trying to defend Pamuk".[35] Meanwhile, the lawyer who had led the effort to try Pamuk, Kemal Kerinçsiz, said he would appeal the decision, saying, "Orhan Pamuk must be punished for insulting Turkey and Turkishness, it is a grave crime and it should not be left unpunished."[34]

In 2006, the magazine Time listed Orhan Pamuk in the cover article "TIME 100: The People Who Shape Our World", in the category "Heroes & Pioneers", for speaking up.[36]

In April 2006, on the BBC's Hardtalk program, Pamuk stated that his remarks regarding the Armenian massacres were meant to draw attention to freedom of expression issues in Turkey rather than to the massacres themselves.[37]

On 19-20 December 2006 a symposium on Orhan Pamuk and His Work was held at Sabancı University, Istanbul. Pamuk himself gave the closing address.

In January 2008, 13 ultranationalists, including Kemal Kerinçsiz, were arrested by Turkish authorities for participating in a Turkish nationalist underground organisation, named Ergenekon, allegedly conspiring to assassinate political figures, including several Christian missionaries and Armenian intellectual Hrant Dink.[38] Several reports suggest that Orhan Pamuk was among the figures this group plotted to kill.[39][40] The police informed Pamuk about the assassination plans eight months before the Ergenekon investigation.[41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orhan_Pamuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink

Both cases had in common the threat of violence

Both cases involved the "insult of Turkishness"

Both cases involved the Armenian Genocide

Hrand Dink died. He was Armenian and dared to speak out.

[Thugut]

The Ottoman Empire had been crumpling apart for decades. The cause? The rebellion of the indigenous populations against Ottoman rule. This usually involved the intervention of the Great Powers. Does it really come as a surprise, that to maintain it's integrity, the Ottoman Government would focus it's attention against "misbehaving" minorities? Or that it's main treatment would be brute violence? Or that the remoteness of the location (landlocked) and the international situation (WWI) would allow for such actions to transpire?

Genocide is a political term more than anything else. But completely removing the Armenian seed from it's traditional lands was the goal and it succeeded in great part. Denying it is adding insult to injury, but also an indication of what the current state is in Turkey. Definitely not a very enlightened or free one it seems.

[4X4Driver]

I justify resistance and uprising against a dynastic regime. You justify massacre and the killings of women and children. So don't even dare compare my thoughts to yours. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
Your country..

Well well well..whatever happened to "your peace lovin' tree huggin' hale krishna attitude?? I guess the true colors becomes more visible when it comes to the Turks ;)

Ethnically clensing a large chunk of the country from the Turks in prepations for a independent armenian state isn't just uprising..



Protesting against parades constitutes anything comparable to the "insult of Turkishness". There is no such law in our legal system nor our constitution. The case was ridiculous and as far as I know was dismissed.

ja ja ja it's just a another version (civilized) greek version of what we have actually. An EU country for how long?? 30 some years and so little advance??


Now compare that to your stance on the Armenian Genocide. Remember Hrand Dink? Orhan Pamuk? Let me refresh your memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orhan_Pamuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink

Both cases had in common the threat of violence

Both cases involved the "insult of Turkishness"

Both cases involved the Armenian Genocide

Hrand Dink died. He was Armenian and dared to speak out.

We're not an EU member and never will be. We do whatever we like..our couty, our rules. :)

[Aor]

Well well well..whatever happened to "your peace lovin' tree huggin' hale krishna attitude?? I guess the true colors becomes more visible when it comes to the Turks ;)


Hah? If that is what you need to believe,then by all means, please do. I will not compare or justify myself to a man that justifies cowardly, criminal acts.


ja ja ja it's just a another version (civilized) greek version of what we have actually. An EU country for how log?? 30 some years??


And the bullcr@p keeps pilling up. The same attitude we get from nationalists all over. Laws like article 301 and or the attitude exhibited towards the Armenian people and history have been rejected in Europe. If you think they are right, justifiable or should be maintained then there is not a real chasm of values between us.

We're not an EU member and never will be. We do whatever we like..our couty, our rules. :)

[/quote] Yeah the usual "Turkey strong" chest thumping anti- E.U crap. This has to do with basic human values, principals and justice. Clearly you can't even comprehend even that little.

[4X4Driver]

Yeah the usual "Turkey strong" chest thumping anti- E.U crap. This has to do with basic human values, principals and justice. Clearly you can't even comprehend even that little.

Well..I can see that it didn't help you a bit.

Look mate..we're never gonna agree..we're just going around here.

We should be concerned more regarding the US Turkish relations ahead...not about a story allegedly happened almost a 100 years ago.

[Moledet]

AIPAC wasn't there this time to stop it, guess why?
Though, I bet it will be there in congress at least this time around.

[4X4Driver]

AIPAC wasn't there this time to stop it, guess why?
Though, I bet it will be there in congress at least this time around.

Let's just hope so man.

[Dolph BG]

Dear RoyB,

Otomans are our ancestor and we historically know they have not killed people in genocide agenda. Sure we know there were killings but at both side. What we criticise you who support Armenian claims is in one sided blame. We have thousands documents,proof that we had not make a genocide but politicians under lobby control (surely, lots of money on table - bribe) tend to be a historian beyond being a politician. Could you tell me why is it like that? what is the true intention behind historical truths?

I am %100 sure, US will never pass this...they just give some sugar to Armenians in the beginning of film. Politics,politics and politics.
Most of your comments are good and objective.But this one is a joke.You ancestor were some of the most vicious murderers in all of Europe.They committed many genocides.We historically know Ottoman Empire killed a lot people in the Balkans,some of whom my ancestors.My point-please don't try to make Ottoman Empire sound like great place to be for non turks.And YES today Turkey should accept the consequences of their ancestors. and recognized Armenian Genocide :roll:

[dracon49]

Unfortunately, the chances that it will pass in the Congress are very low...

[4X4Driver]

Most of your comments are good and objective.But this one is a joke.You ancestor were some of the most vicious murderers in all of Europe.They committed many genocides.We historically know Ottoman Empire killed a lot people in the Balkans,some of whom my ancestors.My point-please don't try to make Ottoman Empire sound like great place to be for non turks.And YES today Turkey should accept the consequences of their ancestors. and recognized Armenian Genocide :roll:

Why does it bother you that we don't agree with these allegations? After all, if we're such a bad ppl as you described above, we should atleast have a right to disagree in defence.

We should ofcourse settle this in a UN recognized int'l court in the nearest future.

[TheEvian100]

Most of your comments are good and objective.But this one is a joke.You ancestor were some of the most vicious murderers in all of Europe.They committed many genocides.We historically know Ottoman Empire killed a lot people in the Balkans,some of whom my ancestors.My point-please don't try to make Ottoman Empire sound like great place to be for non turks.And YES today Turkey should accept the consequences of their ancestors. and recognized Armenian Genocide :roll:

+1

I think it's for the best of all involved parties to recognize those genocides like the Armenian but also the pontian-Greek and ionian-Greek genocides as well.

[Dolph BG]

Today Turkey should recognize a lot more genocides the the Armenian only.
1876: Ottomans’ massacre the Bulgarians: Modern Bulgarian historians estimate 30,000 murdered, with 3,000 orphaned children, thousands of Bulgarians imprisoned or exiled and 60-80 villages destroyed and another 200 hundred plundered and 300,000 livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) and countless personal goods taken as ‘booty’ from a defenceless population long exploited during centuries of oppressive Ottoman rule. A 1986 analysis found that the Ottomans seemed aware of the possible uprising and sent a variety of Muslim fighters not only against the rebels but against ordinary, unarmed civilians. Reports (1876) note that girls and women were stripped, gang-raped and usually killed, people were burnt alive, children ‘spitted’ on bayonets, pregnant women ripped open and their unborn baby killed...... (Bostom p 664-666)(see detail with eyewitness reports in date list part H.)
http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3235:-islams-european-slave-trade-by-muslim-turks-eg-ottoman-and-tartars-part-g-in-islams-genocidal-slavery&catid=170&Itemid=67
The "peace full" ottomans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konstantin_Makovsky_-_The_Bulgarian_martyresses.jpg
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=106563
Today Turkey does not recognize any genocide committed by her ancestors..............VERY SAD!!!!!!!!!

[4X4Driver]

+1

I think it's for the best of all involved parties to recognize those genocides like the Armenian but also the pontian-Greek and ionian-Greek genocides as well.

Than you'll need to get in the line quick cuz...there is at least couple hundred years of waiting :)

[Dolph BG]

+1

I think it's for the best of all involved parties to recognize those genocides like the Armenian but also the pontian-Greek and ionian-Greek genocides as well.
Absolutely Agree Enallos.Turkey wants to live only with the glory of the Ottomans but not with their "bad side" so ti speak.

[Dolph BG]

Than you'll need to get in the line quick cuz...there is at least couple hundred years of waiting :)
"Very funny" :bash::bash:

[4X4Driver]

Today Turkey should recognize a lot more genocides the the Armenian only.
1876: Ottomans’ massacre the Bulgarians: Modern Bulgarian historians estimate 30,000 murdered, with 3,000 orphaned children, thousands of Bulgarians imprisoned or exiled and 60-80 villages destroyed and another 200 hundred plundered and 300,000 livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) and countless personal goods taken as ‘booty’ from a defenceless population long exploited during centuries of oppressive Ottoman rule. A 1986 analysis found that the Ottomans seemed aware of the possible uprising and sent a variety of Muslim fighters not only against the rebels but against ordinary, unarmed civilians. Reports (1876) note that girls and women were stripped, gang-raped and usually killed, people were burnt alive, children ‘spitted’ on bayonets, pregnant women ripped open and their unborn baby killed...... (Bostom p 664-666)(see detail with eyewitness reports in date list part H.)
http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3235:-islams-european-slave-trade-by-muslim-turks-eg-ottoman-and-tartars-part-g-in-islams-genocidal-slavery&catid=170&Itemid=67
The "peace full" ottomans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konstantin_Makovsky_-_The_Bulgarian_martyresses.jpg
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=106563
Today Turkey does not recognize any genocide committed by her ancestors..............VERY SAD!!!!!!!!!

Hey..this is a new one :)

Now..are you sure it was us who did all those terrible things to you and not the neighbour to your south?



"Very funny" :bash::bash:


I was actally dead serious..you know how long the list of ppl in line claiming that we massacred their ancestors?? it's aloooong one mate..loong one.

[dracon49]

There is a chance that Turkey will compensate Armenia in the future for what happend?

[Dolph BG]

Hey..this is a new one :)

Now..are you sure it was us who did all those terrible things to you and not the neighbour to your south?
:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:

[Dolph BG]

There is a chance that Turkey will compensate Armenia in the future for what happend?
I wish Armenia,the best of luck!

[Ulytau]

Before sleeping i hope Mr. Borisov interest to give info to us about Belene Labour Camp too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belene_labour_camp

Or we must ask about what happened millions of Turks at Balkans. (because their relatives and neighbours etc. living in Turkiye)

a humour after this issue when Mr. Armstrong arrive to Moon he seen about normally there was aliens but Turks killed all of them.

About living with Ottoman,if we didnt care our background we wont pay debts of Ottoman Empire after Turkish Republic founded.

I knew it and as i notice topic turn to tail pain contest more than topic issue..

Good night.

[Dolph BG]

Hey..this is a new one :)

Now..are you sure it was us who did all those terrible things to you and not the neighbour to your south?





I was actally dead serious..you know how long the list of ppl in line claiming that we massacred their ancestors?? it's aloooong one mate..loong one.
I was not joking either,thats why it is quotes!And Im not your mate,OK?You don't even know what the ancestor you are proud of did to my ancestor and call me mate.Learn some history "mate".

[creativeUsername]

I dont see why its so hard to admit Turkey was responsible for this genocide or massacre or whatever you prefer to call it. Every country has done some terrible things in the past. I doubt Armenians control the world and have completly fabricated the facts so as to force powerful governments to recognize it.

[Synthe]

There is a chance that Turkey will compensate Armenia in the future for what happend?

Somebody give this guy a medal.

[Dolph BG]

Before sleeping i hope Mr. Borisov interest to give info to us about Belene Labour Camp too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belene_labour_camp

Or we must ask about what happens millions of Turks at Balkans.

a humour after this issue when Mr. Armstrong arrive to Moon he seen about normally there was aliens but Turks killed all of them.

About living with Ottoman,if we didnt care our background we wont pay debts of Ottoman Empire after Turkish Republic founded.

I knew it and as i notice topic turn to tail pain contest more than topic issue..

Good night.
Haha so 10 years of the communist camp can be compared for 451 years of Ottoman Yoke.Im not saying is right,no its not.Thats why turks in Bulgaria today have political party,mosks,and communist terror against them is recognized.And what did you recognized???????But you comparison is a joke from the beginning.

[4X4Driver]

There is a chance that Turkey will compensate Armenia in the future for what happend?


Why not?. Not by the vote hungary politicians, but If they can get their allegations approved in an legit int'l court against our argumantations....I can't see why not?

[dracon49]

Why not?. Not by the vote hungary politicians, but If they can get their allegations approved in an legit int'l court against our argumantations....I can't see why not?
Ah..Turkey will accept to go to court on it?...

[4X4Driver]

Ah..Turkey will accept to go to court on it?...

Since we are the accused side, It is actually us who has been challenging/inviting them to the courts for at least a decade now..they always decline.

[dracon49]

Ah..i didn't know that...i thought that you don't want to talk about it........

[4X4Driver]

Ah..i didn't know that...i thought that you don't want to talk about it........

Actually I'm sick of hearing discussions for atleast some years now...anyone who don't agree with the pro armenian "intellectuals", that person immediatelly
becomes a "coup plotter" and thrown in the jail.

That's how it is now actually :)

[Nickchios]

Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=170274)


Ankara warns of 'consequences'

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Turkish FM calls US recognition of World War I genocide matter of "honor."

Turkey warned the Obama administration on Friday of negative diplomatic consequences if it fails to impede a US resolution branding the World War I-era killing of Armenians as genocide.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said his country, a key Muslim ally of the US, would assess what measures it would take, adding that the issue was a matter of "honor" for Ankara.

A US congressional committee approved the measure Thursday. The 23-22 vote sends the measure to the full House of Representatives, where prospects for passage are uncertain. Minutes after the vote, Turkey withdrew its ambassador to the US

Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey denies that the deaths constituted genocide, saying the toll has been inflated and those killed were victims of civil war and unrest.

US President Barack Obama had objected to the resolution, but Turkey wants stronger action to block the resolution.

"We expect the US administration to, as of now, display more effective efforts. Otherwise the picture ahead will not be a positive one," Davutoglu told reporters. He complained of a lack of "strategic vision" in Washington.

Davutoglu said the Obama administration had not put sufficient weight behind efforts to block the vote and called on Washington to do more to prevent the measure from now going to the full House.

The measure was approved at a time when Washington is expected to press Turkey to back sanctions against Iran to be approved in the UN Security Council, where Turkey currently holds a rotating seat. Turkish cooperation is also important to US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Also at stake are defense contracts. Turkey is an important market for US defense companies, many of which had lobbied against the measure.

Davutoglu said the US ambassador in Turkey had been called to the country's Foreign Ministry for talks. The ambassador, James Jeffrey, told reporters Friday: "We oppose the resolution."

The foreign minister said Turkey was determined to press ahead with efforts to normalize ties with Armenia, but said Turkey would not be "pressured" into doing so.

He added that the vote had put the ratification of agreements to normalize ties with Armenia into jeopardy.

Last year, Turkey and Armenia agreed to normalize ties by establishing diplomatic relations and reopen their shared border, but the agreements have yet to be approved by their parliaments.

[4X4Driver]

Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=170274)


Bunch of hot air..nothing else. He doesn't want to react and loose their support from US..that's why he so openly talking about counter consequences.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Who said nooone knows?? if you act like you don't know, it don't mean ''no one knows''... and many of those killed people ware thrown in rivers...

4x4driver. What is the other side of the story? the turkish genocide?


All so-called allegeations are purely baseless. So you tell us huge number of 1,5 ml were been thrown in rivers and they suddenly had disappeared but 10ml years old dinosour skeletons couldn't disappear. Are you joking? you can only joke kids not us.

You long diaspora allegations depend on accusing a nation for so-called genocide, make a unity in armenians for something and allow to cash flown to diaspora armenians year by year and surely gain noting at the final. We do not deny common killings but there were no genocide.


How pathetic.. genocides rarely leave graves to their victims.

Denying historical facts is a thing, insulting victims memories is an another, shame on you.

Without losing temper I have replied you in civil manner but you have quickly lose and put your dirty hand on it using some "shame" emotional words. It easily reflects and turn you "shame on you zeev for tying to be a historian and back politicians activities on historical events,shame on you"


Very clear for us, There is NO Genocide. This was a fabricated story written by some world powers in WW1 period aiming to divide a nation into small pieces using some armenians in Ottoman lands. Totally failed. That is it.

[dracon49]

Btw if the ties will be really bad, the US can kick Turkey from NATO?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Btw if the ties will be really bad, the US can kick Turkey from NATO?

Is it your drama or a "wish" point? Turkey is the second largest army in NATO. A clever can not delete such a power for so-called genocide. US will not accept the genocide allegation at final.

[Iko]

Second maybe in manpower....but frankly not even 6th by actual military strength....

[4X4Driver]

Btw if the ties will be really bad, the US can kick Turkey from NATO?

No idea what the US wants to do..and don't really care either, but leaving the NATO has became a pretty popular thought amongs the high military personel and the population from left and right. Today, 95% of the miliarty personnel and civillians claimed to plot a coup
and thrown in jail in the last 3 years are all pro-EuroAsian bunch.

[dracon49]

Is it your drama or a "wish" point? Turkey is the second largest army in NATO. A clever can not delete such a power for so-called genocide. US will not accept the genocide allegation at final.
Not my wish..i only wanted to know in what circumstances you can kick a NATO member from the organization..how the process goes..

[hay_txa]

heh, turks r trippin'

[Clearday-TRForce]

heh, turks r trippin'

very informative...I think you have more...

[Eventine]

I was actally dead serious..you know how long the list of ppl in line claiming that we massacred their ancestors?? it's aloooong one mate..loong one.

Of course it's a long one. The Ottoman Empire was the Islamic equivalent to the Crusader Kingdoms, and were ruled by Central Asian nomads known for their history of wars, mercenary activities, and invasion/subjugation of sedentary peoples long before they became Islamic, especially if you believe that the Seljuk Turks were related to the Xiongnu and Gokturks in Chinese records. Ottoman behavior was not at all surprising given this legacy, but don't get me wrong: Turks are far from alone in the graveyard of empires. They just happen to be the ones whose victims have the ear and the sympathy of the media, today. Although, in the West it has become a habit for the political establishment to pontificate on and on about how evil European colonialism was. Perhaps it might help if Turkey did the same? But then I understand how difficult that might be, given the territorial issues in question (the Ottomans being, after all, a conquest empire made up of different ethnic groups, of which Turks are, relatively speaking, more recent migrants).

[Sumadinac]

Where are the ~1.5 milion Armenians who lived in what is today eastern Turkey?

[AKS]

It is great to see that a lot of members here actually care enough about the issue and are willing to let the Turk members know how they feel about the Turkey's denialist behavior.

I just want to add a few things.

There are many mass graves in Syrian deserts, and in historic Armenian areas and villages, its just the Turk gov. would not allow massive and serious forensic excavation to take place. Even under such circumstances though mass grave yards of the slaughtered Armenians and other Christian minorities were still found. And in general no body does not mean no crime.

Just because someone's relative died during the Balkan Independence Wars does not mean that the Armenian Genocide did not take place or that the people of the Balkan area Genocided the Turks. Ottoman Empire was a aggressive occupier and once those people won their freedom back the Turkish population had to leave with the retreating Turkish forces.

Turks that died when fighting the Armenian resistance fighters died mostly because they were either part of the Turkish army or militia, or were helping them. Given the fact that most able bodied Armenian men were conscripted to the Turkish Army to fight for Ottoman Empire in WW1, but then were taken to construction battalions, disarmed and slaughtered makes it clear that Armenians could not go around slaughtering mass numbers of Turkish civilians (as our Turk members here want us to believe) even if they wanted to. The fact is resistance fighters did just that, resist slaughter and they could not even do that properly because they were undermanned, underarmed, and extremely small in numbers.

Saying that the Armenians joined the Russian forces (only small amount actually did, I dont know why not in larger numbers to be honest, since Armenians and other Christian minorities have been actively mistreated since the late 1800's, by mistreated I mean slaughtered, see Hamidian Massacres, Bulgarian Massacres, Assyrian Genocide, Greek Massacres ) was the reason why the massacres took place just shows the horrid and vicious mentality of these members of the forum. Women, children, old folks were marched to their deaths with constant torture and rape and thats the best excuse these guys can come up with; disturbing.

Everything points to the fact that the massacres were a Genocide, since they were not short and spontaneous, but it was a process that took years to plan and execute.

[Nickchios]

Second maybe in manpower....but frankly not even 6th by actual military strength....

That is true.....:)

[deli_dumrul]

Turks that died when fighting the Armenian resistance fighters died mostly because they were either part of the Turkish army or militia, or were helping them. Given the fact that most able bodied Armenian men were conscripted to the Turkish Army to fight for Ottoman Empire in WW1, but then were taken to construction battalions, disarmed and slaughtered makes it clear that Armenians could not go around slaughtering mass numbers of Turkish civilians (as our Turk members here want us to believe) even if they wanted to. The fact is resistance fighters did just that, resist slaughter and they could not even do that properly because they were undermanned, underarmed, and extremely small in numbers.


You lying piece of Armenian....

##################################################
WARNING!!!... These pictures are VERY graphic... You have been warned...
##################################################

http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/008.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/012.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/013.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/019.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/024.jpg [That baby is unborn]

More here: http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar.htm

These are not graphic:

Turkish soldiers burying the dead: http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/025.jpg
A committee examining the aftermath of an Armenian raid, note the Russians: http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/fotograflar/005.jpg

Just one of the hundreds of photos of Armenians caught redhanded:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/026-2.jpg

[deli_dumrul]

There are many mass graves in Syrian deserts, and in historic Armenian areas and villages, its just the Turk gov. would not allow massive and serious forensic excavation to take place. Even under such circumstances though mass grave yards of the slaughtered Armenians and other Christian minorities were still found. And in general no body does not mean no crime.


You lying piece of Armenian:


Below is the list of the sites with the dates they belong to and the dates they were opened:

1986 obakoy, erzurum,~500 bodies, march 1918
1986 alacakoy, erzurum, 278 bodies, march 1918
1988 cavusoglu ercis, Van, 60 bodies 1915?
1988 Dumlu Erzurum, 94 bodies, march 1918
1990 Zeve, Van,~550 bodies, 1915?
1991 Subatan Kars,~250 bodies, april 1918
1993 Timar Erzurum ~ 350 bodies, 1918
1999 Hakmehmet Kars, 51 soldier bodies, Aug 1919
2003 Gedikli, Kars, 96 bodies, Aug 1919

[deli_dumrul]

For the idiot who asked "which archive" after commenting on this thread, we are talking about the Dashnak party archive located in Boston, which is locked down, which is filled with dirty Armenian laundry, and for which we have offered the Armenians 20 million dollars to open... One wonders, if these Armenians are so confident in their interpretation of history why the heck they would not open the archives for the world to see.

I have no idea how I can put this lightly, but here it goes: I would rather let my bones rust next to my grandparents at this early age rather than being labelled a Nazi.

Last of all, if you believe your accusations are actually true, well, I have bad news for you... We will see each other in hell once again...

[4X4Driver]

It is great to see that a lot of members here actually care enough about the issue and are willing to let the Turk members know how they feel about the Turkey's denialist behavior.

I just want to add a few things.

There are many mass graves in Syrian deserts, and in historic Armenian areas and villages, its just the Turk gov. would not allow massive and serious forensic excavation to take place. Even under such circumstances though mass grave yards of the slaughtered Armenians and other Christian minorities were still found. And in general no body does not mean no crime.

Just because someone's relative died during the Balkan Independence Wars does not mean that the Armenian Genocide did not take place or that the people of the Balkan area Genocided the Turks. Ottoman Empire was a aggressive occupier and once those people won their freedom back the Turkish population had to leave with the retreating Turkish forces.

Turks that died when fighting the Armenian resistance fighters died mostly because they were either part of the Turkish army or militia, or were helping them. Given the fact that most able bodied Armenian men were conscripted to the Turkish Army to fight for Ottoman Empire in WW1, but then were taken to construction battalions, disarmed and slaughtered makes it clear that Armenians could not go around slaughtering mass numbers of Turkish civilians (as our Turk members here want us to believe) even if they wanted to. The fact is resistance fighters did just that, resist slaughter and they could not even do that properly because they were undermanned, underarmed, and extremely small in numbers.

Saying that the Armenians joined the Russian forces (only small amount actually did, I dont know why not in larger numbers to be honest, since Armenians and other Christian minorities have been actively mistreated since the late 1800's, by mistreated I mean slaughtered, see Hamidian Massacres, Bulgarian Massacres, Assyrian Genocide, Greek Massacres ) was the reason why the massacres took place just shows the horrid and vicious mentality of these members of the forum. Women, children, old folks were marched to their deaths with constant torture and rape and thats the best excuse these guys can come up with; disturbing.

Everything points to the fact that the massacres were a Genocide, since they were not short and spontaneous, but it was a process that took years to plan and execute.

Touchy... Hiding behind the same ol' war rethoric. "Poor Christians in the hands of big bad evil Muslim Turks"..in every word, this Muslim Turk's destruction in Anatolia is justified. As a result of failure, shocking disappoinment for not finalizing the "Turkish (Esatern) Question" of the West.

You should get used to the idea of this will not get you anything...no money, no land, no recognition. We're here to stay.

If you're so confident of your stories...face us in the courtroom instead of bribing politicians for your cause.

[Thugut]

Just one of the hundreds of photos of Armenians caught redhanded:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/026-2.jpg

Yeh, middle-aged men. And apparently wealthy enough to wear bow-ties and suits. Wealthy 40 year-old men always form the core of irregular bandits, right?

You got hundreds of such photos you say? Would be interesting to see how hundreds of photos of arrested "evil" Armenians prove how they weren't systematically targeted by the Ottoman forces.

All it proves is the Ottomans (as usual in these cases of ethnic cleansing) went after the elite classes first. I guess the women and children had their turn later.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Btw if the ties will be really bad, the US can kick Turkey from NATO?

AKAIK they cannot, America has more to loose then Turkey if Turkey were to be kicked out.


Second maybe in manpower....but frankly not even 6th by actual military strength....

rofl

Do yourself a favor and don't embarrass yourself more, stop posting.

[deli_dumrul]

Yeh, middle-aged men. And apparently wealthy enough to wear bow-ties and suits. Wealthy 40 year-old men always form the core of irregular bandits, right?


They look like low life scum to me....



You got hundreds of such photos you say? Would be interesting to see how hundreds of photos of arrested "evil" Armenians prove how they weren't systematically targeted by the Ottoman forces.

These photos were intended for the Armenian liar above and his bullsh*t claims that he pulled out of his sorry a$$...

If you need to prove something, contact your nearest senator to pass this bill... It is pretty low, but, heck, it is at least better than using arguments like "bow tie means wealth and eliteness in the Ottoman era"...

[ArmeniaR]

House Foreign Affairs Committee Howard L. Berman (D-CA), chairman

Verbatim, as delivered

Thursday, March 04, 2010

Chairman Berman’s opening remarks at markup of the Armenian Genocide resolution, H. Res. 252

Turkey is a vital and, in most respects, a loyal ally of the United States in a volatile region. We have also been a loyal ally to Turkey, and should continue to be so. Be that as it may, nothing justifies Turkey’s turning a blind eye to the reality of the Armenian Genocide. It is regrettable, for example, that Turkey’s Nobel-Prize-winning novelist, Orhan Pamuk, was essentially hounded out of his native country for speaking out on this subject. Now I don’t pretend to be a professional historian. I haven’t scoured the archives in Istanbul looking for original documents.

But the vast majority of experts – the vast majority – academics, authorities in international law, and others who have looked at this issue for years, agree that the tragic massacres of the Armenians constitute genocide.

In a letter to members of congress two years ago, the International Association of Genocide Scholars stated the following, and I quote:

“The historical record on the Armenian Genocide is unambiguous and documented by overwhelming evidence. It is proven by foreign office records of the United States, France, Great Britain, Russia, and perhaps most importantly, of Turkey’s World War I allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, as well as by the records of the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920, and by decades of scholarship.”

“As crimes of genocide continue to plague the world, Turkey’s policy of denying the Armenian Genocide gives license to those who perpetrate genocide everywhere.”

The Genocide Scholars urged the House to pass a resolution acknowledging the Armenian Genocide because, they said, it would constitute – and I quote again -- “recognition of a historical turning point in the twentieth century, the event that inaugurated the era of modern genocide. In spite of its importance, the Armenian Genocide has gone unrecognized until recently, and warrants a symbolic act of moral commemoration.”

Professor Yehuda Bauer, a highly respected scholar at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has written that the Armenian Genocide is, in his words, “the closest parallel to the Holocaust.”

In a 1985 report, a subcommission of the UN Commission on Human Rights found that the massacres of the Armenians qualified as genocide.

And Raphael Lemkin, the Polish lawyer who coined the word “genocide” and drafted the international genocide convention, told an interviewer that, quote “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians.”

Nearly two dozen other countries – including France, Canada, Russia, Switzerland and Chile – have formally recognized the Armenian Genocide. So has the European Parliament.

As the world leader in promoting human rights, the United States has a moral responsibility to join them.

The Turks say passing this resolution could have terrible consequences for our bilateral relationship, and indeed perhaps there will be some consequences. But I believe that Turkey values its relations with the United States at least as much as we value our relations with Turkey.

And I believe the Turks, however deep their dismay today, fundamentally agree that the U.S.-Turkish alliance is simply too important to get sidetracked by a non-binding resolution passed by the House of Representatives.

At some point, every nation must come to terms with its own history. And that is all we ask of Turkey.

Germany has accepted responsibility for the Holocaust. South Africa set up a Truth Commission to look at Apartheid. And here at home, we continue to grapple with the legacies of slavery and our horrendous treatment of Native Americans.

It is now time for Turkey to accept the reality of the Armenian Genocide.

This will most likely be a difficult and painful process for the Turkish people, but at the end of the day, it will strengthen Turkish democracy and put the U.S.-Turkey relationship on a better footing.

I urge my colleagues to support this important resolution.

[Rastagir]

One question from my part: Is there some way that Turkey can "sue" Armenia for "slander"? And this means, by using Turkish archives or asking for access to Armenian ones the government of Turkey can appeal to some international body in order to clarify and support it's position that there was a massacre but not a genocide?


P.S: I think the point of this thread is to discuss why the Americans chose to do this at this particular time, and what possible repercussions this might have. Discussing the Armenian Genocide leads us nowhere, it has already being discussed extensively in other threads and we will end up having another thread locked.

[JJHH]

One question from my part: Is there some way that Turkey can "sue" Armenia for "slander"? And this means, by using Turkish archives or asking for access to Armenian ones the government of Turkey can appeal to some international body in order to clarify and support it's position that there was a massacre but not a genocide?

Probably not. Turkey would have to open its archives which would probably lead to the opposite; more information confirming the genocide.

[4X4Driver]

One question from my part: Is there some way that Turkey can "sue" Armenia for "slander"? And this means, by using Turkish archives or asking for access to Armenian ones the government of Turkey can appeal to some international body in order to clarify and support it's position that there was a massacre but not a genocide?


P.S: I think the point of this thread is to discuss why the Americans chose to do this at this particular time, and what possible repercussions this might have. Discussing the Armenian Genocide leads us nowhere, it has already being discussed extensively in other threads and we will end up having another thread locked.


They sure can and will do that eventually...Turkey will sue the sorry ass of armenia . You can rest asure that they will pay for this slander campaighn one way or the other eventually.

But..they have to come to the courts for us to prove this **** was not a genocide and of course they don't dare to do so. Our archives open widely for everyone. It is the armenian archives that are not open. So one wonders..if they're so sure of themselves, WHY the hell archives are kept shut?? What is it that they don't want world to know??

What makes us so sure of ourselves and challenging?

[Iko]

Do yourself a favor and don't embarrass yourself more, stop posting.

Actually....you should do yourself a favor and do some research....in all sanity if you can claim that Turkish armed forces can come even close to the military strength of at least 6 other NATO countries (U.S.; U.K.; France, Germany, Italy and Spain) then its you my dear friend who should stop embarrassing yourself on this forum....but anyway this is not the subject of discussion on this post....feel free to open new one regarding this issue where we can discuss....

[RoyB]

Time to close thread. Kbyethx,

[Mackie]

For the idiot who asked "which archive" after commenting on this thread, we are talking about the Dashnak party archive located in Boston, which is locked down, which is filled with dirty Armenian laundry, and for which we have offered the Armenians 20 million dollars to open... One wonders, if these Armenians are so confident in their interpretation of history why the heck they would not open the archives for the world to see.


This archive discussion is very funny. There are Amenian, Turkish and German archives.
So in a Turkish-Armenian conflict, which one should be the most reliable? ;-)

[4X4Driver]

This archive discussion is very funny. There are Amenian, Turkish and German archives.
So in a Turkish-Armenian conflict, which one should be the most reliable? ;-)

Out of the open ones, as a involved third parties, it should be the Russian and German archives. Since I'm part to the dispute, I would not name the Turkish one myself, but the court will definetelly take it into a account before making any decisions. The archives of the Dashnak party, which started the slaughter campain against the Turks in order to create ethnically pure armenian state within the borders of Ottoman Empire, are not open today.

[Cabalabro]

But the vast majority of experts – the vast majority – academics, authorities in international law, and others who have looked at this issue for years, agree that the tragic massacres of the Armenians constitute genocide.

In a letter to members of congress two years ago, the International Association of Genocide Scholars stated the following, and I quote:

“The historical record on the Armenian Genocide is unambiguous and documented by overwhelming evidence. It is proven by foreign office records of the United States, France, Great Britain, Russia, and perhaps most importantly, of Turkey’s World War I allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, as well as by the records of the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920, and by decades of scholarship.”

“As crimes of genocide continue to plague the world, Turkey’s policy of denying the Armenian Genocide gives license to those who perpetrate genocide everywhere.”

Professor Yehuda Bauer, a highly respected scholar at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has written that the Armenian Genocide is, in his words, “the closest parallel to the Holocaust.”

In a 1985 report, a subcommission of the UN Commission on Human Rights found that the massacres of the Armenians qualified as genocide.

And Raphael Lemkin, the Polish lawyer who coined the word “genocide” and drafted the international genocide convention, told an interviewer that, quote “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians.”

Nearly two dozen other countries – including France, Canada, Russia, Switzerland and Chile – have formally recognized the Armenian Genocide. So has the European Parliament.



But according to the Turkish members of this forum that never happened. I wonder whom should i believe? :-|

[Lemonz]

trying to deny the whole thingmakes the Turks look like ****s.+

[4X4Driver]

trying to deny the whole thingmakes the Turks look like ****s.+

Sounds like we've killed your ancestors too. Get in the line :)



But according to the Turkish members of this forum that never happened. I wonder whom should i believe? :-|


We Turks are the side who wants to settle this in a court, while the other side wants to stay away from the courts and use the politicians for their slander campaigns.

[martinexsquaddie]

but we only massacred them cause they tried to massacre us .
its a weakl case man up and admit the ottoman empire ended in blood and horror as most empires do.
trying to justify the unjustifaible is just stupid.
countries survive a blood soaked history the UK slaughtered millions and does'nt deny it.

[Ulytau]

Haha so 10 years of the communist camp can be compared for 451 years of Ottoman Yoke.Im not saying is right,no its not.Thats why turks in Bulgaria today have political party,mosks,and communist terror against them is recognized.And what did you recognized???????But you comparison is a joke from the beginning.

Yes,we seen how recognized when you guys cancel votes of Turks who have Bulgarian citizenship right

[BorisA]

countries survive a blood soaked history the UK slaughtered millions and does'nt deny it.

Yeah?
And when we heard ever from a british PM or the Queen/King an apology?

Feel free to post one where the colonial behaviour is condemd by any of them.

You can try the same with the French if you want. Or the Dutch....and above all the Spanish. Good luck.

[Rastagir]

They sure can and will do that eventually...Turkey will sue the sorry ass of armenia . You can rest asure that they will pay for this slander campaighn one way or the other eventually.

But..they have to come to the courts for us to prove this **** was not a genocide and of course they don't dare to do so. Our archives open widely for everyone. It is the armenian archives that are not open. So one wonders..if they're so sure of themselves, WHY the hell archives are kept shut?? What is it that they don't want world to know??

What makes us so sure of ourselves and challenging?


For which international body are we talking here? The International Court of Hague? And if this is the case, how come Turkey hasn't taken steps unilateraly? Because, the way I see it, it would be a hell of a lot more lucrative to use this as a countermeasure that trying to prevent one country from recognising the Genocide by reffering to diplomatic and bilateral relations consequences every time this comes up. That way it would avoid the whole recurring issue and actually turning a rather defensive stance to an offensive one.

Turkey here does the same mistake everyone else does: Instead of turning this whole thing into a historical matter, they play the same political game every time. And every time it's them also who actually lose (beside the Armenians), because this matter won't be laid to rest, it will keep coming up again and again and every time we will have the very same conclusion.

[martinexsquaddie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-issues-apology-for-irish-potato-famine-1253790.html

Blair issues apology for Irish Potato Famine

Kathy Marks

Monday, 2 June 1997


Tony Blair has issued a statement on the Irish Potato Famine 150 years ago which amounts to the first apology expressed by the British authorities.

At a weekend festival in County Cork to commemorate the famine, which claimed one million lives, a letter was read out from the Prime Minister in which he blamed "those who governed in London" at the time for the disaster. The statement was read to an audience of 15,000 at a concert by the Irish actor Gabriel Byrne. In it, Mr Blair said he was pleased to join in remembering those who had died and suffered during "the great Irish famine".

He went on: "The famine was a defining event in the history of Ireland and Britain. It has left deep scars. That one million people should have died in what was then part of the richest and most powerful nation in the world is something that still causes pain as we reflect on it today. Those who governed in London at the time failed their people."

Mr Blair's words were welcomed by John Bruton, the Irish Prime Minister, who said: "While the statement confronts the past honestly, it does so in a way that heals for the future." Kathy Marks


see boris not that difficult ok we got about another 100 countrys to go but hey ho its a start

[BorisA]

After 800 years the last you could have done. But since when the UK is a democracy? Long enough to recognize that it was wrong or not? And how long is that famine ago?

Don't you think that took a little bit long for that apology?


And what about the other nations/ethnics? If it just "recently" started with the quasi-kin Irish how long it will take for the Indians, Zulus, etc.?

[Mango Madness]

We Turks are the side who wants to settle this in a court, while the other side wants to stay away from the courts and use the politicians for their slander campaigns.
Genocide is a matter for historians to decide, not courts (and their concensus is that it was genocide)

[tornadoss]

Genocide is a matter for historians to decide, not courts (and their concensus is that it was genocide)

And not politicians...

[martinexsquaddie]

150 years actually and we may not be offically apologizing to everyone there's no attempt to ignore the bad bits of our Empire.
http://groong.usc.edu/fisk2.html
unlike the turkish goverment which is still trying to deny what happened its not going to work the truth is out there the turksih goverment can't bury it only try to persuade goverments to not officaly endorse it.

[ArmeniaR]

You guy's sey turkey hase nothing to lose? lol, funny to see all those turks panicing here... from inside you guys are burning...

[BigBoss20th]

I see the other thread got closed, turning both threads into Armenian genocide discussion (out of desperation ???)
Still trying to manipulate innocent readers with their lies over and over again. Don't you (turks) realize that every non turk here knows the truth (obviously...)?

One of you said the Dashnak archives in Boston are closed, false (thanks for this opportunity).
There was an idiot named Yusuf Halacoglu (chairman of Turkey's state-funded Turkish Historical Society) that said the same thing and that he offered the Armenians 20 million to open the archives.
Here is the article:


Armenians Should Take $20 Million Offered by Turkey as Partial Payment
The largest Turkish daily newspaper, Hurriyet, carried the following sensational headline in its May 20, 2008 edition: "Turkey offers $20 million aid to open Armenian archives. (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/turkey/8979826.asp?gid=231&sz=84336)"
Yusuf Halacoglu, chairman of Turkey's state-funded Turkish Historical Society, told Hurriyet that he had offered Armenians $20 million to open the ARF archives in Boston which he says include "very important documents" regarding the Armenian Genocide.

Halacoglu said that he made this financial offer after Armenians allegedly told him that they do not have the necessary funds to organize these archives. He claimed that "Armenians do not want to have the archives opened because such efforts will start a real debate over the genocide claims."

In recent years, Halacoglu has made many bizarre statements on the Armenian Genocide, bringing nothing but ridicule upon himself, his fellow genocide denialists, and the Turkish Historical Society. This latest offer is yet another wacky statement by this charlatan, masquerading as a historian. It shows his own, and his government's desperation in trying to counter what Hurriyet describes as the Armenian Diaspora's increasing worldwide activities in recent years for the acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide.

There are several falsehoods in Halacoglu's statement.
First, he does not say which Armenians, if any, had told him that they lack the necessary funds to catalogue the ARF archives in Boston. It is a pretty sure bet that he has never contacted a single ARF official regarding the status of these archives. If he had, he would have learned that these archives are already open to any serious scholar. I am also quite certain that no ARF official has ever told Halacoglu that the archives are not catalogued due to funding issues, because many of the documents have already been published in several volumes. Since Halacoglu knows neither Armenian nor any other language besides Turkish, he would be unable to read a single document located in these archives.

Halacoglu claims that he had conveyed his offer of $20 million to "two Armenian historians, Ara Sarafian and Hilmar Kaiser," and had not received an answer.
Betraying the depth of his ignorance, Halacoglu cannot even tell that Hilmar Kaiser is a German and not an Armenian!
Tatul Sonentz-Papazian, who managed the ARF archives in Boston until 2000, was quoted by the Armenian Reporter as saying that, contrary to Halacoglu's claims, the cataloguing of the ARF documents through 1925 were completed in 1995. Mr. Sonentz-Papazian told the Armenian Reporter that Hilmar Kaiser, whom he had seen as recently as a month ago, did not convey such an offer from Halacoglu. Ara Sarafian also contradicted Halacoglu's claims by telling the Reporter that he had not been asked to convey such an offer to the ARF. "This is obviously a publicity stunt," Sarafian was quoted as saying. "Halacoglu thrives on such publicity." ^^^(which idiot falls for this rofl)

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the ARF archives will lend any credence to the cause of genocide denialists. Gerard Libaridian, who was in charge of the ARF archives in Boston from 1982 to 1988, posted the following explanation on the armworkshop website on March 26, 2007: "I doubt that they [ARF archives] will shed much light on the genocidal process itself, since the leaders of that party, both national and local, were among the first victims of that process.... These archives, of course, cannot be lumped in the same basket as state archives, since the Dashnaktsutiune [ARF] is a political organization and not a state."

Halacoglu would do well to be more concerned about the accessibility and integrity of Ottoman/Turkish archives rather than those of the ARF. In the May 25, 2008 issue of the Turkish newspaper, Taraf, researcher Ayse Hur, in a detailed and lengthy report, courageously exposed the destruction and manipulation of the Ottoman archives. The Taraf article is appropriately titled, "Leave the Tashnak archives alone and look at the Ottoman archives." Over the past nine decades, the Ottoman archives have been cleansed from all incriminating documents and made available mostly to denialist "scholars" hired by the Turkish government.

My advice to the officials in charge of the ARF archives is to take the $20 million being offered by the Turkish government and declare that sum to be a partial compensation for the billions of dollars of damages suffered by Armenians during the Genocide.

Whenever Armenians have an opportunity to recover even a small portion of their immense losses during the genocide, be it money, personal property or other assets, they should grab it without hesitation!

http://www.hayem.org/harut-sassounian-column/2008/armenians-should-take-20-million-offered-turkey-pa/And there was something about Armenian don't want a historical commision.
BS, Did anyone came and was refused to access any archive item to read? Quite the opposite, IIRC two Armenian historians were refused to get permission to access ottoman archives. These archives access currently under Turkish military jurisdiction and controlled by Turkish parliament.

OT: Now this resolution has passed turkey will be under greater pressure to accept the protocals without any preconditions and open it's borders, if it refuses the chance of approving this resolution wil be much greater.

Edit:
For those who have little knowledge of the Armenian genocide, here are few site's with a lot of information:
www.csuchico.edu/mjs/center/teaching_resources/armenia/articles/ (http://www.csuchico.edu/mjs/center/teaching_resources/armenia/articles/)
www.twentyvoices.com (http://www.twentyvoices.com)
www.theforgotten.org (http://www.theforgotten.org)

[Atlantic Friend]

"We did nothing, we did nothing, plus, you can't prove it and the other side had it coming anyway"

These threads always deliver.

[Hollis]

"We did nothing, we did nothing, plus, you can't prove it and the other side had it coming anyway"

These threads always deliver.


9 pages of posts, and this is the best synopsis of the whole thread. If this thread went to 20 pages, it would probably be the best synopsis for those additional 11 pages.