View Full Version : German commentaries on Greek debt crisis
skyrock
03-07-2010, 02:47 PM
Extracts from a German editorial to Greek Prime Minister
"Dear Prime Minister,
"If you read this, you have entered a country that is quite different from your own. You are now in Germany.
"Here, we work until we're 67-years old... Here, we don't have to pay anyone a 1,000-euro bribe for a hospital bed."
"And yes, Germany also has high debt, but we can pay it. We wake up early and work hard, because we want to save our money for a rainy day; and because we have companies, whose goods are in demand around the world."
"Prime Minister, we want to be friends with Greece. That's why we've given your country 50 billion euros since you joined the EU. But let's be clear: A good friendship requires you to be honest."
-----
Source: http://www.*******.com/article/idUSTRE6241P220100305
krebsie
03-07-2010, 03:30 PM
haha awesome
lol Franz Josef Wagner...
Just bunch of stereotypes.
There are no bribery in Germany?
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/nov18_1/a2574
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/339/sep22_2/b3906
fish&chips
03-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Lol. One has to note that Franz Josef Wagner's editorials in Bild are meant to provide the little amount of satire that your average Bild readership is capable to understand.
Steak-Sauce
03-07-2010, 03:55 PM
Oh noes.. The statements above were posted in the (infamous) BILD newspaper. Biggest crap in my country. I have my doubts that BILD is anywhere near "influential"..
Moreover, I wonder if this whole thread was created to trigger another flamewar, since the more "normal" commentaries from other newspapers in the link haven't been posted?
---
FINANCIAL TIMES DEUTSCHLAND (Business)
"Greece has been saved, at least until the next financing round... Big EU states -- mainly Germany and France -- can praise each other because their tactics have worked."
"The combination of savings promises, vows of solidarity, threats and the hunt for returns has ensured that this time everything went well. Whether this complicated cocktail will work next time is unclear. Markets are still tense ... If you think the Greeks face politically and economically difficult times, which will probably become even more tense due to the new austerity package, the rescue is above all temporary."
FRANKFURTER ALLEGMEINE ZEITUNG (Conservative)
"The placement of the Greek government bond is a fine success for Athens, but at the same time it's only a pause for breath on a long and stony path, which will still make demands of the country."
HANDELSBLATT (Business daily)
Front-page commentary:
"It's too soon to celebrate. The Greeks still have to painstakingly implement the proper measures. It won't be easy, and the measures will have a negative impact on a large proportion of people. But there's no other way. In fact, it's the only reason the ratings agencies haven't already thumbed their noses at Greece."
Leading article:
"It's rare that the financial markets look on a meeting in the German capital of Berlin with such excitement. When Chancellor Angela Merkel receives Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, they will have the undivided attention of every investor."
"The successful placing of a Greek bond yesterday shows that it's worth standing firm and keeping the pressure on Athens."
skyrock
03-07-2010, 04:06 PM
Oh noes.. The statements above were posted in the (infamous) BILD newspaper. Biggest crap in my country. I have my doubts that BILD is anywhere near "influential"..
Moreover, I wonder if this whole thread was created to trigger another flamewar, since the more "normal" commentaries from other newspapers in the link haven't been posted?
---
FINANCIAL TIMES DEUTSCHLAND (Business)
"Greece has been saved, at least until the next financing round... Big EU states -- mainly Germany and France -- can praise each other because their tactics have worked."
"The combination of savings promises, vows of solidarity, threats and the hunt for returns has ensured that this time everything went well. Whether this complicated cocktail will work next time is unclear. Markets are still tense ... If you think the Greeks face politically and economically difficult times, which will probably become even more tense due to the new austerity package, the rescue is above all temporary."
FRANKFURTER ALLEGMEINE ZEITUNG (Conservative)
"The placement of the Greek government bond is a fine success for Athens, but at the same time it's only a pause for breath on a long and stony path, which will still make demands of the country."
HANDELSBLATT (Business daily)
Front-page commentary:
"It's too soon to celebrate. The Greeks still have to painstakingly implement the proper measures. It won't be easy, and the measures will have a negative impact on a large proportion of people. But there's no other way. In fact, it's the only reason the ratings agencies haven't already thumbed their noses at Greece."
Leading article:
"It's rare that the financial markets look on a meeting in the German capital of Berlin with such excitement. When Chancellor Angela Merkel receives Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, they will have the undivided attention of every investor."
"The successful placing of a Greek bond yesterday shows that it's worth standing firm and keeping the pressure on Athens."
Take it easy. Germans are known for being straight-faced. We don't need another example to reinforce that impression.
Extracts from a German editorial to Greek Prime Minister
"Dear Prime Minister,
"If you read this, you have entered a country that is quite different from your own. You are now in Germany.
"Here, we work until we're 67-years old... Here, we don't have to pay anyone a 1,000-euro bribe for a hospital bed."
"And yes, Germany also has high debt, but we can pay it. We wake up early and work hard, because we want to save our money for a rainy day; and because we have companies, whose goods are in demand around the world."
"Prime Minister, we want to be friends with Greece. That's why we've given your country 50 billion euros since you joined the EU. But let's be clear: A good friendship requires you to be honest."
-----
Source: http://www.*******.com/article/idUSTRE6241P220100305
Funny... not
On 'Work, work and more work'
Athens News, Issue No. 13365, 23 Nov 2009
Work, work and more work
by Damian Mac Con Uladh
The deteriorating work-life balance in Greece is counterproductive for both employer and employee, says economist Chr. Ioannou.
THANASIS says his working day is pretty common. “Everyone I know is in the same situation,” said the 34-year-old commercial director. “I put in a 50-hour week - and that doesn’t include the hours I sometimes have to put in over the weekend when something urgent comes up.”
Currently employed by a Greek multinational, Thanasis says he worked even more hours in a previous job.
“I left home at 7am and returned at 10.30pm, a long day which included 90-minute commute in each direction.”
The fact that his wife clocks up, on average, a 45-hour week has made for a trying family life for the couple, who have a young daughter.
The working day reality of many Greeks, he argues, “demolishes the prevalent view that our northern European counterparts work longer hours”.
Figures released earlier this month by Eurostat, the EU’s statistics agency, reconfirm Greeks’ standing as putting in the longest working week in Europe, with Greeks averaging 42 hours.
It’s the culture
“People do work a lot in Greece, and they don’t realise it,” says social psychologist Kostas Kafetsios, who points to underlying cultural reasons for the lack of clear rules and regulations to safeguard workers.
“There are a lot of implicit things in Greek culture, which is collectivist,” explains Kafetsios, who lectures at the University of Crete. “In collectivist cultures, interest groups - such as workers and managers - do not explicitly communicate things clearly. People don’t want to have things clear and this produces gaps which are not regulated very well.”
The long Greek working week has more concrete origins in the 1990s, a period of high economic growth and heavy restructuring, according to Christos Ioannou (photo).
“There was more work and more money and a huge effort on the part of Greeks to catch up [with other EU countries] in terms of wages,” says Ioannou, an economist with expertise in human resources and employment relations.
He said that survey after survey has shown that “Greeks, when presented with the choice of less working time and less money, or more working time and more money, opt for the latter.”
They work for more money because of the low wages and low disposable incomes in Greece, Ioannou adds. “And they also want to finance their mortgages and consumption.”
Overtime
Ioannou cited the existence of a managerial prerogative on overtime - unique to Greece among the OECD countries - as contributing to the problem. This empowers employers to request workers to put in an extra five hours a week.
While employers often rely to this tool and to employee’s desire to do overtime, they don’t always follow the laws that specify higher rates of pay for this extra effort (see tables below).
For example, Trina, an employee at an educational publishing company, says that she is occasionally asked to do overtime when a project requires it, “but that this is not compensated financially, or with days off in lieu”.
Ioannou says that the smaller the company - and small and medium enterprises dominate the Greek economy - the less likely it is to find a proper system of work organisation that includes procedures or rule books on labour relations.
Thanasis agrees. In his experience, multinational companies have universal procedures which they apply uniformly in all the countries were they operate. And like his current employer, they sometimes help employees strike a positive balance between the job, home and recreation.
“The work-life balance is a non-issue for government policy, the unions and some employers,” says Ioannou. “It’s nowhere on the policy agenda, despite it being one of huge importance for workers and families in Greece, particularly in Athens.”
Possible solution
The economist says that codifying Greece’s fragmented and often contradictory labour laws, as many European countries have done, would make legislation easier to follow and to implement.
In addition, legalising working time accounts - where employees may work longer when needed but take this time off in lieu later - would greatly benefit employed parents with young children, for example.
As the law stands, this time management tool may only be used informally in the Greek context.
“Any employer doing so would be in big trouble if found out by the labour inspectors, as there is no legal provision for this method in Greece,” he warns.
Bizarrely, as Ioannou points out, even though an employer may agree to such an arrangement, he could later use it to dismiss the employee on the grounds that he failed to show up at work, or the employee could use it to report his employer.
One way out of the impasse, Ioannou says, would be a “Greek path to ‘flexicurity’”, which would give more flexibility to rigid sectors of the labour market while, at the same time, giving more security to the very flexible segments of the labour market.
Fallout
Today, the long working hours being put in by Greeks is leaving its mark on society.
“We work longer and longer, get some more money, but at the end of the day productivity is not high and we’re not happy,” Ioannou says.
Thanasis agrees. “It’s no accident that we have a dramatically shrinking population. In Greece, we need two incomes to survive, [leading to] Greeks having fewer children later.”
Having worked in the UK and the Netherlands, he says offices clear out soon after the official closing hour, whereas in Greece there exists a “pseudo team spirit” created in part by peer pressure.
“In a dog-eat-dog environment where everyone works long hours, it’s not the fear of losing your job - but the fear of not being seen as part of the team - that keeps individuals in the office longer.”
Average weekly full-time working hours
Greece 42.0
Germany 40.8
United Kingdom 40.8
European Union 40.3
France 38.3
Finland 37.8
Source: Eurostat
Who works what in Greece?
Average fulltime hours worked
Greece - EU
Professionals 35.2 - 39.4
Clerks 39.0 - 37.6
Armed forces 39.7 - 41.1
Technicians 40.3 - 38.8
Elementary occupations 41.4 - 39.0
Craft and trades workers 42.2 - 40.1
Skilled agricultural and fishery workers 43.1 - 45.5
Service workers/shop staff 43.7 - 40.6
Plant and machine operators 44.6 - 40.3
Legislators, senior professionals and managers 49.9 - 45.5
Source: Eurostat
Average hours worked (Fulltime employment)
Total - Male - Female
Greece 42.0 - 43.3 - 39.7
EU 40.3 - 41.4 - 38.5
Source: Eurostat
It’s the law
The legal working week in Greece is 40 hours
The employee may work five additional hours a week at the employer’s request. This so-called extra work is subject to a premium pay rate of 25 percent above the normal hourly rate. ‘Extra work’ does not count as part of the permissible overtime
The working week, including ‘extra work’ and overtime, may not exceed 48 hours
The maximum daily working time is fixed at 10 hours
Work in excess of 45 hours per week is treated as overtime and must be authorised by the labour inspectorate. Overtime of up to 120 hours per year must be remunerated at a premium of 50 percent above the standard rate, while annual overtime in excess of 120 hours attracts a pay premium of 75 percent above the standard rate. Overtime in excess of maximum working hours and not authorised by the labour inspectorate must be remunerated at 100 percent above the standard rate
Maximum working time does not apply to those in managerial posts
Where a collective agreement on working time organisation is in place, employees may work two additional hours per day and either work two days less later or take the accumulated time off in lieu as rest days
Source: Christos A. Ioannou, Managing Employment Relations in Greece: A Guide for Foreign Managers, Economia Publishing, 2009. 80pp. 12 euros So much for "lazy Greeks". Mental note when out of toilet paper use Bild newspaper. Commentaries like these have been criticized by the president of the German Parliament. In German
Berlin (ddp). Bundestagspräsident Norbert Lammert (CDU) hat sich mit ungewöhnlich deutlichen Worten in die Debatte zur griechischen Staatsverschuldung eingeschaltet und «hämische Kommentare» in deutschen Medien kritisiert. Auch manche Aufforderung deutscher Politiker zur Kurskorrektur wäre wohl unterblieben, «wenn man bei unserem etwa zehnfachen Sozialprodukt den deutschen Wählern ähnliche Sanierungsmaßnahmen in einer vergleichbaren Größenordnung von rund 50 Milliarden Euro zugemutet hätte», betonte Lammert am Sonntag.
In dem Schreiben an seinen griechischen Amtskollegen Philippos Petsalnikos zollte Lammert Respekt für die Entscheidungen von Parlament und Regierung in Griechenland: «Mir imponieren der Ernst und der Mut, mit dem verantwortliche Politiker in ihrem Land nun an jahrelang verschobene und verdrängte Probleme herangehen, und die Deutlichkeit, mit der sie ihren Landsleuten vermitteln, für eigene Fehler und Versäumnisse selbst die Verantwortung übernehmen zu müssen.» Die drastischen Korrekturen im Staatshaushalt mit Kürzungen von Gehältern und Renten im öffentlichen Dienst sowie gleichzeitigen Steuererhöhungen machten dies deutlich.
Zugleich sprach sich Lammert für eine gemeinsame Unterbindung von Finanzspekulationen aus. Geschäfte mit der Versicherung von Verlusten, die sich ohne den Einsatz eigener Mittel mit dem spekulativen Erwerb von Anleihen ergeben können, seien «schlicht unanständig» und sollten gesetzlich unterbunden werden.
(ddp)
http://www.open-report.de/artikel/Lammert+attackiert+die+Medien/44653.html
Sorry couldn't find it in English.
no matter how populistic and narrow minded Wagners comments may seem. this guy often speaks out what many germans think. and in this case he hit the nerve again. "clean up your own mess and stop asking for money!" Check out the comments below the article. some greeks seem to be completely delusional. It's a rough wake up but a well needed one.
no matter how populistic and narrow minded Wagners comments may seem. this guy often speaks out what many germans think. and in this case he hit the nerve again. "clean up your own mess and stop asking for money!" Check out the comments below the article. some greeks seem to be completely delusional. It's a rough wake up but a well needed one.
Funny that though in EVERY SINGLE MEETING we stress out we DON'T WANT YOUR MONEY you come again claiming we are begging for it.
don't get me wrong. i respect and applaud Greeces decision to raise money on its own. all EU members are sitting in the same boat and rely on each other's support. but there are plenty of greek voices who blame the EU and particularly Germany for what happened. maybe it's a media thing, but a meaningless greek politician's demand for war reparations causes more interrest, than constructive talks and therefore gets more attention from the mainstream.
silentpartner
03-07-2010, 04:24 PM
There’s a political cartoon at the end of the following link that fits this thread. For copyright reasons, you’re going to have to work to see it though.
Exchanging Greek Euros to German Euros: http://www.cagle.com/working/100303/chappatte.jpg
[For more Patrick Chappatte political cartoons, see this link (http://www.cagle.com/politicalcartoons/pccartoons/archives/chappatte.asp)]
all EU members are sitting in the same boat and rely on each other's support. True.
but there are plenty of greek voices who blame the EU and particularly Germany for what happened. There is blame on the E.U, not Germany. There never was blame on Germany. There is a European wide conclusion that this crisis was ony made possible due to the lack of proper monitoring of the European economy as a whole, the lack of ways to cope with an emergency such as this financial crisis and mainly against the speculators that want to profit from the whole mess, or even see the Euro crumble.
maybe it's a media thing, but a meaningless greek politician's demand for war reparations causes more interrest, than constructive talks and therefore gets more attention from the mainstream.
True again. We pay attention to populist politicians and yellow press because it is easier to think, to search for information and reach reasonable conclusions that can help. It is easier to get carried by emotions. Right now this is the last thing we need, both Greece and Germany.
Did that constructed image of "lazy Greeks" and "always paying Germans" do anything good to the credibility of the politicians and the press that promoted it? Did it help form some solidarity in the Euro area, or did it alienate the Germans from the reality we all face and the measures the Euro area needs to take?
At the same time did the accusations of the German people by Greek politicians do anything good to prove we have solid reasonable leadership, or did it promote the exact opposite and create more doubt about the countries ability to come to terms with reality?
Emotion and loud voices do no good to anyone. We are in the same boat after all. We chose to be on the same boat and no matter who shouts and yells it will do nothing to help us all overcome this crisis and sadly also ghosts of the past that made themselves very evident with the recent reactions from both sides.
Watching German news (almost) every day, I don't understand what the f their (the German media's) problem is. Is GB or France or anybody else bitching around about Greece's internal Problems? I don't think so.
The germans are shrude operators, i reckon they are squeezing for some extra loungers by the pool as usual!
Flagg
03-07-2010, 07:54 PM
Tough love.........the frugal Germans are simply demanding that the drunk Greek sailors on shore leave sober the F up......it's for their own good ultimately.
Just read some of the comments left below articles on the Greek financial mess.......people talking like cheap credit crackheads......
While it must suck for some nationalistic Greeks to see their country under the global magnifying glass of the financial media spotlight for all to comment the good news is that at least they are beginning to deal with their massive financial problems...albeit in an involuntary manner with lots of kicking and screaming.
More nations will be facing a near identical financial brick wall soon enough.
At the end of the day you can only pretend to live a champagne dream for so long until the budweiser budget hangover catches up with the charade.
Kubler-Ross, 5 stages of grief:
Denial
Anger
<--------I think Greece is about here
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
I'd also like to add an additional stage of grief......which would be particularly relevant to Greece.....and that's "burning things"
iloxos
03-08-2010, 02:37 AM
@skyrock
i never show a german complaining when greece was buying cord-telephones for 130E each or Leopard tanks at 10millE each.
hypocrisy lessons from the usual suspects.
BorisA
03-08-2010, 05:20 AM
i never show a german complaining when greece was buying cord-telephones for 130E each or Leopard tanks at 10millE each.
hypocrisy lessons from the usual suspects.
Yeah i do not see the sinful, hypocrite part of selling goods. You chosed to buy it or not? And with your money (credits or not..)
iloxos
03-08-2010, 05:45 AM
Yeah i do not see the sinful, hypocrite part of selling goods. You chosed to buy it or not? And with your money (credits or not..)
The sinful/hypocrite part is when Siemens or Krauss Maffei pays off the usual m@@@@r greek politician to sign a deal where a simple cord phone of 7E at the price of 130E to the greek state, telling the same time at the people it had the lowest price.
The 130E price never showed up.
Same with the Leo2s. The same tank spain and germany bought for 4millE we bought at 10.
As a turk you should now better. We both have tonnes of garbage coming from stock german supplies. Not mentioning the "special" deals we had BOTH the honour to have like the selling of Leo1A3s in 1980s when the line had closed for 3 years. We both bought Leo1s at the the price of 2 and thanked them gratefully. You STILL modernise these relics today...
Imagine if germany wasn't your best friend since first bankan war...You might had brand new Pz Vs and Me109s today ;) .
Just bunch of stereotypes.
There are no bribery in Germany?
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/nov18_1/a2574
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/339/sep22_2/b3906Of course we do have cases of bribery.
As a matter of fact though, we have no society which condones bribery. Corruption happens mostly within the private economy. The overwhelming majority of German public servants are incorruptible, whereas in Greece the cops offer you to forget your speeding ticket for a little reward even if they have positively identified you as a foreigner.
m.i.t
03-08-2010, 06:05 AM
Same with the Leo2s. The same tank spain and germany bought for 4millE we bought at 10.
.
is it really true ? why did Greece goverment accept so much big different price ?
Of course we do have cases of bribery.
As a matter of fact though, we have no society which condones bribery. Corruption happens mostly within the private economy. The overwhelming majority of German public servants are incorruptible, whereas in Greece the cops offer you to forget your speeding ticket for a little reward even if they have positively identified you as a foreigner.
Corruption here is different from what you hear in other countries.
Our politicians and higher level bureucrats are as corrupt as in any other country or even more so.
You can usually buy a state minister or a mayor, but you can't buy a cop or a mid-low level bureaucrat.
"You can usually buy a state minister", what a stupid thing to say. I guess you hint at the "party sponsoring affair", which isn't quite exactly an affair. I cannot see any corrupt in donations from the party's clientele when the party in concern would make the influenceable decisions anyway, you know? Our liberals have always been friends of the economy, so no company needs to give them money to influence their decisions.
We had only three major political bribery scandals during the past twenty years - the Christian Democrat's party funding scandal, the affair involving arms lobbyist Karlheinz Schreiber and - which is already disputable in my opinion - the fact that Chancellor Schröder is now a member of the directors board of a company the foundation of which he initiated as a chancellor.
Mackie
03-08-2010, 06:51 AM
@skyrock
i never show a german complaining when greece was buying cord-telephones for 130E each or Leopard tanks at 10millE each.
hypocrisy lessons from the usual suspects.
If you buy a overpriced product on Amazon, it's their fault?
I don't know your understanding of market.
Corruption happens mostly within the private economy.
I don't think you can bribe any private businessman. You can pay him for something, but it will never be bribe. Bribery is possible only with public service/politicians etc.
Outdated, but interesting study about bribery in Germany:
http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de/fileadmin/Redaktion/Institute/Sozialwissenschaften/Politikwissenschaft/Dokumente/Alemann/text_corrruption.html
Mango Madness
03-08-2010, 07:02 AM
On Russian TV they showed excepts of German media, was saying how Greeks have islands worth value and telling them to sell their islands if they can't pay their debts.
The problem is the EU countries are doomed to bail each other out because they use the Euro. If Greece is bankrupt then the Euro devalues and it harms Germany.
iloxos
03-08-2010, 07:11 AM
is it really true ? why did Greece goverment accept so much big different price ?
the people never new. we just found out the hole deals after germany started the siemens trials.
basically the whole crisis is an advantage - gift - to us, since we ve found out the size of the corruption in the parties and the state officials. you can't fix something if you don't know is broken.
If you buy a overpriced product on Amazon, it's their fault?
I don't know your understanding of market.
what if your uncle buys things from amazon with your money 10 times more halving the difference between him and the seller?
is the seller's fault exept your uncle's?
The problem is Germany has to bail out Greece because they use the Euro, and if Greece is bankrupt then the Euro devalues and it harms Germany. Other EU countries will always have to bail each other out.
we don't want bail out. we want normal interest rates for loans we will pay. nothing else.
Steak-Sauce
03-08-2010, 07:18 AM
iloxos, do you have a link to the telephone and Leopard deals? English would be cool, can't read Greek. ;-)
We had only three major political bribery scandals during the past twenty years - the Christian Democrat's party funding scandal, the affair involving arms lobbyist Karlheinz Schreiber and - which is already disputable in my opinion - the fact that Chancellor Schröder is now a member of the directors board of a company the foundation of which he initiated as a chancellor.
Yeah, sure.
That one was pure party politics, you just had to include someone from the SPD as well.. ;)
The reason why there are far more CDU or FDP cases are simply because they're more well connected to economy and money, not because the people in there are evil or something.
In areas where the SPD is as connected to the wealthy and influential it is just as bad, like in Cologne with Trinekens and the Garbage affair.
As I said, corruption here is not paying money to get an advantage, but rather a system of influence.
Good example are the 4 tax investigators in Hesse who were put into forced retirement on faked psychological examinations.
Connected with that, the Wolski trial.
In Hesse, it seems that certain richer people used their influence on the state government to ensure that their tax burden was eased in unofficial or even official ways.
Call it trickle down economics, latin american style. You simply turn a blind eye to tax evasion and even order your tax investigation not to investigate. And if someone complains, declare him insane...
No one can tell me it was a mistake that Wolski didn't have to declare his taxes for serveral years.
This is high level corruption, even if no one was paid directly.
Not to mention the fact that now our Flugbereitschaft is a bookable airline and our foreign minister selects his delegation on a donation basis...
Mackie
03-08-2010, 07:21 AM
what if your uncle buys things from amazon with your money 10 times more halving the difference between him and the seller?
is the seller's fault exept your uncle's?
100% Uncle. Then he is a idiot.
Papenheims
03-08-2010, 07:53 AM
The sinful/hypocrite part is when Siemens or Krauss Maffei pays off the usual m@@@@r greek politician to sign a deal where a simple cord phone of 7E at the price of 130E to the greek state, telling the same time at the people it had the lowest price.
The 130E price never showed up.
Same with the Leo2s. The same tank spain and germany bought for 4millE we bought at 10.
Its not the fault of German manufacturers that Greek politicians and Greece's defence procurement programs are so corrupt. Given the chance any other defence manufacturer would exploit the chance selling overpriced stuff to Greeks - be it Americans, French or Russians.
Instead you should blame Greeks who appear to be bribable by nature.
iloxos
03-08-2010, 07:59 AM
Its not the fault of German manufacturers that Greek politicians and Greece's defence procurement programs are so corrupt. Given the chance any other defence manufacturer would exploit the chance selling overpriced stuff to Greeks - be it Americans, French or Russians.
Instead you should blame Greeks who appear to be bribable by nature.
What do you mean bribable by nature? Is there any nation something by nature? Are you rasist or something?
Explot is the correct word. Exploitation with a bunch of payed off @@@ over a whole country. Not their fault????? Are you joking????
muttbutt
03-08-2010, 09:11 AM
What do you mean bribable by nature? Is there any nation something by nature? Are you rasist or something?
Explot is the correct word. Exploitation with a bunch of payed off @@@ over a whole country. Not their fault????? Are you joking????
You can only be exploited if you allow yourself to be......this is all going around in circles BTW, Greece has huge problems externalising and blaming everyone else won't change that fact.
But one must admit (as in the article) that bribing people abroad was pretty commonplace with the german economy until a few years back.
It was even possible to deduct taxes from bribes for foreign politicians!
That said, I have my doubts wether any large scale government contract in the world is sealed without bribing anyone, especially in the defense industry.
iloxos
03-08-2010, 09:23 AM
You can only be exploited if you allow yourself to be......this is all going around in circles BTW, Greece has huge problems externalising and blaming everyone else won't change that fact.
on the first part you are correct. it is largely our mistake. in our joy to finally have a democratic goverment we closed our eyes in their scandals. of course we never thought where things woud take us...
on the second part words like that are simply racistic. i ve never bribed or taken any money money from no one and there were cases that i needed money badly. we are not criminals.
its just some people think that giving or taking some money its ok due to their lack of democratic ideals.... maybe if you were a simple public servant with 1050E per month working in the state tax office you would take bribes also (especially if they were 4-5 figures).
finally we are not blaming anyone. we ve asked from germany to give back some people from siemens. nothing else. as i ve said numerous times we will pay our dept our selves.
the externalization was a responce to a media war made to us by german newspapers and magazines. nothing more.
MagnusTacitus
03-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Easy as it is...
Kick Greece out of the eurozone
Thugut
03-08-2010, 12:20 PM
Sarkozy Pledges Support for Greek Economy
Nicolas Sarkozy (http://topics.europeanvoice.com/topic/person/Nicolas+Sarkozy),
France's president, said yesterday that detailed plans have been drawn
up for providing financial support to Greece. Sarkozy said that the
eurozone was ready to provide Greece with financial assistance “if
necessary”.
“The Greek government has taken the measures that were expected of it,
the members of the eurozone must be ready to do the same...France will
do what is necessary,” Sarkozy said.
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2010/03/sarkozy-pledges-support-for-greek-economy/67348.aspx
And just like that, the world stops revolving around Germany.
113013
80 EAN
03-08-2010, 12:38 PM
Easy as it is...
Kick Greece out of the eurozone
CFO I guess, right?
or just a troll?
quinsen
03-08-2010, 01:07 PM
No, it's not THAT easy and it isn't a solution either.
Instead you should blame Greeks who appear to be bribable by nature.
Any more stereotypes and racist comments? Come on join the lets bash the Greeks game. Honestly I am getting sick and tired of this attitude. I mean it seems right now Greeks receive more derogatory comments than any other ethnic group. In the last 20 years we had wars, massacres, invasions and even then I don't remember so much bad press and outright racist comments for countries that were involved in those dramas.
For crying out loud it seems in this day and age to be more acceptable to invade a country under false pretext than to have a financial deficit!!!
"The corrupt Greeks", "the lazy Greeks", comments like that find their way to columns in tabloids and even otherwise respected newspapers and news networks and the general public adopts them and reproduces them time and time again. But when people in Greece react in anger, or even, I admit falsely, overreact to such swill, according to our accusers, we are supposed to shut up and accept anything coming our way?!
Well, guess what, we as true to the stereotypes you give us as you are to the sterotypes we, or anyone for that matter, gives to you.
Remember the Athens Olympics? Everyone was on the same trip back then. "They are not going to make it", "the unorganized Greeks will fail" and guess what, we stuffed those mouths pretty good. Can't wait to work our "miracle" again in our"dysfunctional, corrupt, lazy" country .
P.S look for beggars somewhere else.
Of course we do have cases of bribery.
As a matter of fact though, we have no society which condones bribery. Corruption happens mostly within the private economy. The overwhelming majority of German public servants are incorruptible, whereas in Greece the cops offer you to forget your speeding ticket for a little reward even if they have positively identified you as a foreigner.
My god are you naive...it's like you are living in a Reihenhaussiedlung or on a Camping/Trailer-Park where honest Germans lie into each others pocket all day and tell fairy tales about a Biedermännische German 1950/60s fairytale-land where there is no corruption in Germany and where everything is in strict order and nobody behaves against the law while in all those south-European states everyone is corrupt and how that is "immoral" while they are actually just jelous that they don't have that advantage.
You just don't know how to bribe (or better: grease the wheels), that's your problem.
Don't be jelous just because other people don't have to pay their speeding tickets or get something done in a week which will normally take you half a year, it's not their fault that you are incompetent to get along in life.
Vandervahn
03-08-2010, 02:45 PM
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by iloxos http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../showthread.php?p=4807155#post4807155)
Same with the Leo2s. The same tank spain and germany bought for 4millE we bought at 10.
is it really true ? why did Greece goverment accept so much big different price ?
No, it is a victimizing fairy tale. Spain bought 218 for close to 2 billion €. Greece bought 170 pcs. of a more modern version with a tad larger ancillary package for 1.7 billion €. You do the math yourselves. The 4 million € figure for Germany is also guesswork as Germany has not bought new Leopard 2 for close to 20 years.
Of course there are huge price differences between the various versions. But Canada for example bought 100 used tanks from the Netherlands from A4NL to A6NL standard + modernization of said tanks for 650 million €, which boils down to an average 6.5 million per tank, and is totally in line with the 9-10 million € figure for Spains and Greeces newly built vehicles.
I´m not saying there was no shady deal involved and no bribery done. Frankly I dont know and I dont care. But the bottom line is that Greece paid the usual market rate for the worlds best tank.
iloxos
03-08-2010, 04:50 PM
No, it is a victimizing fairy tale. Spain bought 218 for close to 2 billion €. Greece bought 170 pcs. of a more modern version with a tad larger ancillary package for 1.7 billion €.
1,7 was the official price. the tanks reached double that since somehow the money for the artillery needs just vanished. in the defence ministry right now are trying to look for the holes.
plus the "worlds best tank" has serious structural problems in its turret and the ministry is in a deal to replace ALL the turrets.
Vandervahn
03-08-2010, 05:05 PM
So your tanks now cost 20 million unlike the spanish tanks for 10 million that according to you cost 4 million? Option A. those Germans really hate you; option B. YOUR guys ****ed up, so why complain about the Germans, or option C. this is all nonsense. I´m a bit confused.
Those "structural problems" are small cracks under the hatches which haven´t even been completely analyzed yet. There is no reason whatsoever to replace the whole TURRET at this point.
iloxos
03-08-2010, 06:10 PM
So your tanks now cost 20 million unlike the spanish tanks for 10 million that according to you cost 4 million? Option A. those Germans really hate you; option B. YOUR guys ****ed up, so why complain about the Germans, or option C. this is all nonsense. I´m a bit confused.
Those "structural problems" are small cracks under the hatches which haven´t even been completely analyzed yet. There is no reason whatsoever to replace the whole TURRET at this point.
Case B. we really @@ up. the thing is that some people that are screaming to us now had an actual part in helping us. if you had read the first port all the rest were replies to the usual these days greman media attack on my country.
the prices of 10mill are with spare parts, training, simmulation etc. the tank it self goes around 4 mill.
the cracks might have been created from firing the long barrel 120mm gun. the case in under investigation and not for a forum. its the second german system that f@ up after the T214 subs.
Homer
03-08-2010, 11:25 PM
Any more stereotypes and racist comments? Come on join the lets bash the Greeks game. Honestly I am getting sick and tired of this attitude. I mean it seems right now Greeks receive more derogatory comments than any other ethnic group. In the last 20 years we had wars, massacres, invasions and even then I don't remember so much bad press and outright racist comments for countries that were involved in those dramas.
For crying out loud it seems in this day and age to be more acceptable to invade a country under false pretext than to have a financial deficit!!!
"The corrupt Greeks", "the lazy Greeks", comments like that find their way to columns in tabloids and even otherwise respected newspapers and news networks and the general public adopts them and reproduces them time and time again. But when people in Greece react in anger, or even, I admit falsely, overreact to such swill, according to our accusers, we are supposed to shut up and accept anything coming our way?!
Well, guess what, we as true to the stereotypes you give us as you are to the sterotypes we, or anyone for that matter, gives to you.
Remember the Athens Olympics? Everyone was on the same trip back then. "They are not going to make it", "the unorganized Greeks will fail" and guess what, we stuffed those mouths pretty good. Can't wait to work our "miracle" again in our"dysfunctional, corrupt, lazy" country .
P.S look for beggars somewhere else.
Most of them probably couldn't have pointed out Greece on a map prior to the financial crisis, now suddenly with Greece in the media every second day, they have become experts on Greece and internal issues with the country. They know Greece better then the Greeks.
Jurinko
03-09-2010, 02:53 AM
Whats that fuss about? Everyone knows Germans are hard working folks and Balkan people are more easy at work. Which is not a problem necessarily, until those easy working people do not demand the same living standards as those hard working and government bribes their electorate by virtual money, heaping debts ahead. All governments do it in some extent, but sometimes it is too much unsustainable.
iloxos
03-09-2010, 04:37 AM
Whats that fuss about? Everyone knows Germans are hard working folks and Balkan people are more easy at work. Which is not a problem necessarily, until those easy working people do not demand the same living standards as those hard working and government bribes their electorate by virtual money, heaping debts ahead. All governments do it in some extent, but sometimes it is too much unsustainable.
I work 12 hours a day and a am a "lazy full of bribes" greek. how many hours are you working? i ve never worked less than 10 hours. the last 8 hour work day i had was in UK.
public servants only work 8 hour days and that only id their are not in the security forces of medical staff.
visit a private company in athens and try the long work hours, the 20% unemployment -that brings 2-3 people asking for a job with half your paycheck every day- and check if you can manage to survive with the usual 1300E (for 5 years work experience and BENG+MSc) paycheck, 600E rent and the rest 700 for food, transportation (car loan, petrol), water/electricity/mobile bills plus the weekend expences. Aaaa i forgot the taxes of the new tax policy.
it is remarkable how media can change the image of a whole nation in 2-3 months....
stelios1984
03-09-2010, 08:28 AM
Whats that fuss about? Everyone knows Germans are hard working folks and Balkan people are more easy at work.
Assuming you're talking about us Greeks, here (http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries_slide_3.html?thisSpeed=undefined)is a list of the world's hardest working countries according to Forbes:
1 South Korea
2 Greece
3 Czech Republic
4 Hungary
5 Poland
6 Turkey
7 Mexico
8 Italy
9 United States
10 Iceland
Jurinko
03-09-2010, 08:33 AM
Hungary? They just almost bankrupted as well. Maybe it is better not to work too much then p-)
And no offense meant, your private sector had to work hard if you had to feed so many state employees for so long. There is one universal prioblem, whether it is Greece, UK, Hungary or California, when government spends more money than raises in taxes, for too long.
Vandervahn
03-09-2010, 10:12 AM
Assuming you're talking about us Greeks, here (http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries_slide_3.html?thisSpeed=undefined)is a list of the world's hardest working countries according to Forbes: ...
Its a list of the LONGEST working nationals. Just to be precise.
Its a list of the LONGEST working nationals. Just to be precise.
Whatever they will do, they remain lazy. p-)
Its a list of the LONGEST working nationals. Just to be precise.
No the article reads "The World's Hardest-Working Countries" . I also provided a survey from Eurostat that proved we are hard working people, but I guess it is easier to form a biased opinion based on the silly comments of a tabloid like Bild , put your hands in your ears and start shouting "LA LA LA" like an 8 year old, and insist we are lazy, corrupt thugs :bash:
Ataman
03-09-2010, 10:50 AM
Assuming you're talking about us Greeks, here (http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries_slide_3.html?thisSpeed=undefined)is a list of the world's hardest working countries according to Forbes:
1 South Korea
2 Greece
3 Czech Republic
4 Hungary
5 Poland
6 Turkey
7 Mexico
8 Italy
9 United States
10 Iceland
I miss Japan. :lol:
Btw, young Germans aren't extraordinary 'hard-working' people, they're just like other Europeans I think.
If you have to work much more than 8 hours a day there must be something wrong.
Steak-Sauce
03-09-2010, 11:14 AM
the externalization was a responce to a media war made to us by german newspapers and magazines. nothing more.
Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no "media war" taking place against Greece.
I miss Japan. :lol:
They have earned big money yet, and now they consume.
justasoldier
03-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Which is not a problem necessarily, until those easy working people do not demand the same living standards as those hard working and government bribes their electorate by virtual money, heaping debts ahead.
Quoted for truth.But also,there is always the ,,key,, player behavior totally counterproductive to the community,which as it seems is crucial for the country functioning,which makes things further worse in the eyes of the public.
Homer
03-09-2010, 03:19 PM
And what truth would that be?
The truth you chose to see based on biased opinions in the media, or the truth based on actual facts that is being ignored by some of you conveniently(even when posted for you)?
Please, take your time to form a reply.
As I said, all of a sudden everyone is an expert on Greece and it's internal affairs...I'm sure there is no coincidence with the fact Greece is in the news quite a lot lately. Of course not.
I miss Japan. :lol:
Btw, young Germans aren't extraordinary 'hard-working' people, they're just like other Europeans I think.
If you have to work much more than 8 hours a day there must be something wrong.
You made an excellent point!. I am sure it will be lost on most.
iloxos
03-09-2010, 04:05 PM
And no offense meant, your private sector had to work hard if you had to feed so many state employees for so long. There is one universal prioblem, whether it is Greece, UK, Hungary or California, when government spends more money than raises in taxes, for too long.
you're correct in that.
Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no "media war" taking place against Greece.
Same thing had happened before the Olympics... Its not the first time to us.
Steak-Sauce
03-09-2010, 04:50 PM
Same thing had happened before the Olympics... Its not the first time to us.
And? Do you really want to tell me that Greece and the Greek people feel offended by a German magazine's cover and article?
Oh silly me!
How dare I to defend my proud country. Of course we hate the Greeks, everyone knows the Germans hate the Greeks. Just by looking at all the German newspapers, magazines and TV channels, the only thing I see there are anti-Greece slogans. People on the streets are burning Greek flags and demolish Greek restaurants. Oh yes. We truly hate you. There's absolutely no minute without a rant against your country.
justasoldier
03-09-2010, 05:51 PM
As I said, all of a sudden everyone is an expert on Greece and it's internal affairs...I'm sure there is no coincidence with the fact Greece is in the news quite a lot lately. Of course not.
I'm much closer than you think.
And what truth would that be?
The truth you chose to see based on biased opinions in the media, or the truth based on actual facts that is being ignored by some of you conveniently(even when posted for you)?
Please, take your time to form a reply.
The sole truth my friend.Greece is a Balkan state.In any possible aspect.Debts,corruption,too much politics....
creativeUsername
03-09-2010, 06:11 PM
The sole truth my friend.Greece is a Balkan state.In any possible aspect.Debts,corruption,too much politics....
So according to your logic all Germans are Nazis then? I mean if we are just gonna start talking out of our asses and using stereotypes as ground for facts. Please name me one country that hasnt had any problems with debt/corruption.
Homer
03-10-2010, 01:23 AM
You made an excellent point!. I am sure it will be lost on most.
I know a lot of people in Australia who have to work more then 8 hours a day.
I know quite a few people who are working 6 days a week and topping 90 hours a week, week in, week out.
What was the point again?...
And? Do you really want to tell me that Greece and the Greek people feel offended by a German magazine's cover and article?
Oh silly me!
How dare I to defend my proud country. Of course we hate the Greeks, everyone knows the Germans hate the Greeks. Just by looking at all the German newspapers, magazines and TV channels, the only thing I see there are anti-Greece slogans. People on the streets are burning Greek flags and demolish Greek restaurants. Oh yes. We truly hate you. There's absolutely no minute without a rant against your country.
I curious if you realize nobody said anything of the sort..?
But Iloxos is absolute correct. In the run up to the Olympics, we saw article after article about how Greece will not be ready for the Olympics.
It was mostly Anglo-Saxon media, but it filtered out to other media outlets.
Of course they all ate their words later, some even apologised I believe.
This time it's the German media putting Greece through the gauntlet. And I'm sure even you can admit, that the excessive reporting on the crisis from German media is a bit over the top.
Why aren't the French as relentless? I think I may have read one article from a French source.. And the French own more Greek government bonds then the Germans so..yea..
I'm much closer than you think.
The sole truth my friend.Greece is a Balkan state.In any possible aspect.Debts,corruption,too much politics....
So it's only Balkan countries with debt, corruption, and too much bureaucracy?
I urge you to travel and see the world...you'll be surprised at what you find.
iloxos
03-10-2010, 02:26 AM
And? Do you really want to tell me that Greece and the Greek people feel offended by a German magazine's cover and article?
Oh silly me!
How dare I to defend my proud country. Of course we hate the Greeks, everyone knows the Germans hate the Greeks. Just by looking at all the German newspapers, magazines and TV channels, the only thing I see there are anti-Greece slogans. People on the streets are burning Greek flags and demolish Greek restaurants. Oh yes. We truly hate you. There's absolutely no minute without a rant against your country.
first of all YES we were offended. non by the german people but from SOME german media. if you had made the effort to read the 3-4 threads opened the last days on the subject you could see that none had written even the smallest thing aagainst the germans. We haven't seen you after WW2 in a different role that good friends and allies.
Secondly why the whole act on the hatred card? Do you thing we hate you?
The sole truth my friend.Greece is a Balkan state.In any possible aspect.Debts,corruption,too much politics....
Of course only in greece there is corruption. in the rest of the world public servants that manage billions of euros/dollars/etc don't steal peoples money....
plus we never see ourserves as balkans. we are as different as israel is from the rest middle easterners.
valtrex
03-10-2010, 03:55 AM
And? Do you really want to tell me that Greece and the Greek people feel offended by a German magazine's cover and article?
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5670/2010022302.jpg
But this really cracks me up:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/457/clipboard02fz.jpg
Greece: 2000 years of decadence
:D
...awkward German humour
Here Greeks, let me introduce you to the world of political satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_satire). If you can't take it you shouldn't leave your house in the morning.
Seriously, are you guys made of sugar or what's the problem?
PS. That focus cover is brilliant.
Breerman
03-10-2010, 06:24 AM
But this really cracks me up:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/457/clipboard02fz.jpg
Greece: 2000 years of decadence
:D
...awkward German humour
That's not a correct translation.
It says "2000 years of decline"
That's not a correct translation.
It says "2000 years of decline"
True. That doesn't make it any less stupid, untrue, or biased.
It is very easy to write off your a$$, but people believe it. The whole attacks by this kind of press were criticized by none other than the president of the Bundestag. I guess he didn't think they were that innocent or satirical either
valtrex
03-10-2010, 06:40 AM
Here Greeks, let me introduce you to the world of political satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_satire). If you can't take it you shouldn't leave your house in the morning.
Seriously, are you guys made of sugar or what's the problem?
PS. That focus cover is brilliant.
Oh, I do not find it offensive, on the contrary it is quite amusing...and kitsch at the same time (after all kitsch is a German invention, isn't it?)
iloxos
03-10-2010, 06:57 AM
Here Greeks, let me introduce you to the world of political satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_satire). If you can't take it you shouldn't leave your house in the morning.
Seriously, are you guys made of sugar or what's the problem?
PS. That focus cover is brilliant.
some things are sacret. for other people is tradition, for others is family, for others relligion. for us is history.
Vandervahn
03-10-2010, 07:12 AM
No the article reads "The World's Hardest-Working Countries" . I also provided a survey from Eurostat that proved we are hard working people, but I guess it is easier to form a biased opinion based on the silly comments of a tabloid like Bild , put your hands in your ears and start shouting "LA LA LA" like an 8 year old, and insist we are lazy, corrupt thugs :bash:
Still both lists only show average working hours. That figure alone is pretty meaningless. Doesnt matter if some Forbes intern translates that to "hardest working" in the headline. They are only journalists you know.
If you like to read between my lines that I think of Greeks as "lazy corrupt thugs" - that is your problem.
...
If you have to work much more than 8 hours a day there must be something wrong.I know a lot of people in Australia who have to work more then 8 hours a day.
I know quite a few people who are working 6 days a week and topping 90 hours a week, week in, week out.
What was the point again?...
Point being that while working long hours may count as a virtue, HAVING to work long hours is not. There is a triangle of productivity, worth of labour and work-life-balance. If the average Greek routinely scores out of the boundaries of said triangle, that is a clear sign something is ill in the whole system.
In Europe there is a general rule that the higher the productivity the more labour is worth which translates into shorter work days. The societies with the highest quality of life in Europe work the least and still remain rich. Let me repeat, it is NOT a good sign if people HAVE to work that much.
Steak-Sauce
03-10-2010, 07:33 AM
Well, then I must hereby inform you that the free press is a free press in Germany. The funny thing is, most - or at least a few - Greeks go batshyt-crazy because of this cover, and yes, I've read the past threads on this matter and I read your very reactions as well. At least the Focus guys thought that this cover fits perfect. Why? Because it's true - Greek cheated on the EU, simple. Your government didn't tell the EU what's going on until it was too late, and because of this, we all have to pay. Furthermore, it's weaking our EU from within.
And all you could do was accusing us of not paying for war crimes? And then saying this has nothing to do with the current crisis - but hey, we want our €70 mrd? Yeah, sure.
Even if the Bundestag critized the magazines or newspaper in this case, there are relatively free to write what they want. If it's a political rant against Greece, so be it. Funnily (or sadly), the Greek reaction, i.e. playing the Nazi card and "they were still living on trees back then", is directed against us Germans, not against the German media or am I wrong? Wasn't it the Greeks who now want to boycott German products? I heard so.
Even if you guys say "Hey, it's our fault and we will deal with it and we don't need your money!" the majority of Germans would have answered "We bail you out Greece, no problem, even if you don't want our money. We are your friends!" before some Greek folks started to bash us because of a lousy Focus cover. Now see where this mess got us.
I stand by my comment: There is no German media war taking place against Greece, even if you guys went straight for the Focus' flamebait.
iloxos
03-10-2010, 07:39 AM
I stand by my comment: There is no German media war taking place against Greece, even if you guys went straight for the Focus' flamebait.
Steak-Sauce the same people that stole people's and EU money are the same who made comments about trees and nazis. Not the members here who are ordinary people. As for the german media war i have a different opinion.
I want to thank the german people myself for all the effort and support and i hope to act in a similar way in case you ll even need us. we the simple people are not ungrateful.
some things are sacret. for other people is tradition, for others is family, for others relligion. for us is history.
Men of Athens, hear me; harden the **** up.
This confounded Socrates, they say; this villainous misleader of youth! - and then if somebody asks them, Why, what evil does he practise or teach? they do not know, and cannot tell; but in order that they may not appear to be at a loss, they repeat the ready-made charges which are used against all philosophers about teaching things up in the clouds and under the earth, and having no gods, and making the worse appear the better cause; for they do not like to confess that their pretence of knowledge has been detected - which is the truth: and as they are numerous and ambitious and energetic, and are all in battle array and have persuasive tongues, they have filled your ears with their loud and inveterate calumnies.
Not that I'm comparing Focus magazine with Socrates but it's rather funny how some Greeks get upset at Focus for disrespecting your history by pointing out your shortcomings through satire when that same history would seem to teach you to look in the mirror rather than accusing others. You got in to bed with other countries and you shat the bed, you're going to get a verbal abusing, deal with it.
iloxos
03-10-2010, 07:58 AM
Men of Athens, hear me; harden the **** up.
Men of Berlin. You are very funny!
You got in to bed with other countries and you shat the bed, you're going to get a verbal abusing, deal with it.
Ouppppsss.... Is a rape counts too? If yes there are somey money to pay back official loans, losses of lives and losses of infastracture. And without verbal abusing from us. ;)
PS I can be funny too. :p
G3SG1
03-10-2010, 08:07 AM
Well, then I must hereby inform you that the free press is a free press in Germany. The funny thing is, most - or at least a few - Greeks go batshyt-crazy because of this cover, and yes, I've read the past threads on this matter and I read your very reactions as well. At least the Focus guys thought that this cover fits perfect. Why? Because it's true - Greek cheated on the EU, simple. Your government didn't tell the EU what's going on until it was too late, and because of this, we all have to pay. Furthermore, it's weaking our EU from within.
And all you could do was accusing us of not paying for war crimes? And then saying this has nothing to do with the current crisis - but hey, we want our €70 mrd? Yeah, sure.
Even if the Bundestag critized the magazines or newspaper in this case, there are relatively free to write what they want. If it's a political rant against Greece, so be it. Funnily (or sadly), the Greek reaction, i.e. playing the Nazi card and "they were still living on trees back then", is directed against us Germans, not against the German media or am I wrong? Wasn't it the Greeks who now want to boycott German products? I heard so.
Even if you guys say "Hey, it's our fault and we will deal with it and we don't need your money!" the majority of Germans would have answered "We bail you out Greece, no problem, even if you don't want our money. We are your friends!" before some Greek folks started to bash us because of a lousy Focus cover. Now see where this mess got us.
I stand by my comment: There is no German media war taking place against Greece, even if you guys went straight for the Focus' flamebait.
Dude i don't care about the Focus cover at all ( although is rather bad taste to alter a known ancient form of art )but i do care about the fact that your ''free'' press managed in a very short time period to manipulate your public opinion about Greeks.I
t's one thing to say a Greek govt cheated and another thing to throw stones to all of us who try just to work and survive with dignitty. A lot of Greeks are living in Germany i am sure you have some social interacting with them. Most Germans i met , respect them. Now if you thing that the Greeks in Germany are model citizens while Greeks in Greece are thieves .....
The worse part is that the German leadership didn't react in the start of this story and the damage done is really big. And i am not speaking only for trade issues. Pitty.
Derbedeu
03-10-2010, 08:10 AM
Steak-Sauce the same people that stole people's and EU money are the same who made comments about trees and nazis. Not the members here who are ordinary people.
I believe most people are aware of that. I'm also willing to bet that the ones who hate those politicians the most are the regular Greek people who are placed in this mess due to their actions. Likewise, the words of a few German politicians or the media should not be construed to reflect what Germans think of your average Greeks. Cause I'm 100% sure it doesn't.
I want to thank the german people myself for all the effort and support and i hope to act in a similar way in case you ll even need us. we the simple people are not ungrateful.Now that's quite a noble sentiment. Hugs all around! http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2624/grouphugt.gif (http://img30.imageshack.us/i/grouphugt.gif/) http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/biggrind.gif/)
Furthermore, it's weaking our EU from within.
Actually, while certainly true, one can argue that in the long term this crises will actually strengthen the EU. For one thing, Greece can come out stronger out of this, as its politicians finally clean up their act and also whittle down their enormous government spending. I have full faith that they will, and a stronger Greece means a stronger EU. Furthermore, because of this crises, the EU now has the momentum necessary to take steps to ensure that such a thing doesn't happen again (e.g. giving Eurostat auditing powers) or if it does to be better placed to face it (e.g. the proposed European Monetary Fund).
Remember, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/biggrind.gif/)
tluassa
03-10-2010, 08:14 AM
What I dont get is why People pay bribes in private. I for my part have never payed a bribe to anyone in my whole life (and nobody has ever asked for one from me) , and I would thus call the Police directly and surely file a lawsuit against for example a doctor wanting to get bribes from me for or after treatment. Or a driver-instructor wanting bribes. Or a Policemen, or whoever.
I really dont get how People justify that ... to themself.
Indiana Jones
03-10-2010, 08:15 AM
Dude i don't care about the Focus cover at all ( although is rather bad taste to manipulate a known ancient form of art )but i do care about the fact that your ''free'' press managed in a very short time period to manipulate your public opinion about Greeks.I
t's one thing to say a Greek govt cheated and another thing to throw stones to all of us who try just to work and survive with dignitty. A lot of Greeks are living in Germany i am sure you have some social interacting with them. Most Germans i met , respect them. Now if you thing that the Greeks in Germany are model citizens while Greeks in Greece are thieves .....
The worse part is that the German leadership didn't react in the start of this story and the damage done is really big. And i am not speaking only for trade issues. Pitty.
I am in Germany at present, and most people are perfectly able to distinguish between the government and the people, and I cannot recall anybody calling the Greeks in totality thieves or anything of the sort. Even if they did do so, they would hardly be taken serious by anybody here, au contraire. The German government on the other hand is not responsible for "Focus" cover pictures, and why should they react to them, and how ?
Further, what damage has been done, precisely ? Do you really believe this will sour day to day interactions between Germans and Greeks ? This strikes me as the usual storm in the teacup.
Cheers,
IJ.
Derbedeu
03-10-2010, 08:24 AM
Further, what damage has been done, precisely ? Do you really believe this will sour day to day interactions between Germans and Greeks ? This strikes me as the usual storm in the teacup.
Cheers,
IJ.
I do believe you've hit the nail on the head. http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9497/yes.gif (http://img73.imageshack.us/i/yes.gif/)
justasoldier
03-10-2010, 08:30 AM
Please name me one country that hasnt had any problems with debt/corruption.
I believe what you meant was name me a one country with debt of 300 billion corruption going all the way to top authorities and still pretending like it nothing happened?No,can't remember one,except Greece.As for the nazi talks please be kind to quote me where did i said such a thing.
So it's only Balkan countries with debt, corruption, and too much bureaucracy?
No it is only Balkan countries where all of the above mentioned is a national sport for years,and yet everybody goes blind.
I urge you to travel and see the world...you'll be surprised at what you find.
Ah well i would but you see i don't have 14 salaries per year only have them 11(i'm getting my 12 th in january).Sorry i can't afford a travel further than neighboring countries.Of course Greece doesn't count cause i'm not welcomed there as i am.
BTW a while ago a convoy of the Greek army was getting ready to cross the border due to their ongoing participation in KFOR,while on the Greek side of the border(Evzoni) the Greek customs were on strike against government decision on budget cuttings of which part was cutting the 14th salary.So as i understood,the whole administration will strike because of the budget savings,which clearly will affect their salaries,but on the other hand it is very clear to them that the Greek economy can not afford to pay those salaries.Strange isn't it?
Of course only in greece there is corruption. in the rest of the world public servants that manage billions of euros/dollars/etc don't steal peoples money....
Nope.Same thing happens here and all over the Balkans.But the only difference is:
plus we never see ourserves as balkans. we are as different as israel is from the rest middle easterners.
which clearly you're not.And that is my point.A great delusion that brought you and your country to this mess.Step down from the clouds.
The worse part is that the German leadership didn't react in the start of this story and the damage done is really big. And i am not speaking only for trade issues. Pitty.
Our leadership/government does not react to anything. Thats how they roll.
iloxos
03-10-2010, 09:23 AM
which clearly you're not.And that is my point.A great delusion that brought you and your country to this mess.Step down from the clouds.
we not balkans, neither europeans, neither asian. we re greeks. nice to be in the clouds. you ll find out after 3-4000 years.
a SMALL financial mess is not a mess. people don't die in the streets. we will manage. we had worst times the last 100 years.
I believe what you meant was name me a one country with debt of 300 billion corruption going all the way to top authorities and still pretending like it nothing happened?No,can't remember one,except Greece.As for the nazi talks please be kind to quote me where did i said such a thing.
Keep repeating biased remarks. We are aware of our problems. You wish we weren't. Keep trolling
No it is only Balkan countries where all of the above mentioned is a national sport for years,and yet everybody goes blind.
For someone so delusional you are pretty sure what we know.
Ah well i would but you see i don't have 14 salaries per year only have them 11(i'm getting my 12 th in january).Sorry i can't afford a travel further than neighboring countries.Of course Greece doesn't count cause i'm not welcomed there as i am.
BTW a while ago a convoy of the Greek army was getting ready to cross the border due to their ongoing participation in KFOR,while on the Greek side of the border(Evzoni) the Greek customs were on strike against government decision on budget cuttings of which part was cutting the 14th salary.So as i understood,the whole administration will strike because of the budget savings,which clearly will affect their salaries,but on the other hand it is very clear to them that the Greek economy can not afford to pay those salaries.Strange isn't it?
Keep biased comments and imaginary perceptions to a minimum. The thousands of your fellow countrymen streeming to our shores every summer are more than welcome. The majority of foreign investments in your country come from Greece. Since you don't understand that I am surprised what you do understand on our issues.
Nope.Same thing happens here and all over the Balkans.But the only difference is:
which clearly you're not.And that is my point.A great delusion that brought you and your country to this mess.Step down from the clouds.
Check a map, check an encyclopedia, the Internet, I don't care. Member of the E.U since 81. NATO member since 1952. Founding member of the OSCE.
valtrex
03-10-2010, 09:48 AM
Men of Athens, hear me; harden the **** up.
Not that I'm comparing Focus magazine with Socrates but it's rather funny how some Greeks get upset at Focus for disrespecting your history by pointing out your shortcomings through satire when that same history would seem to teach you to look in the mirror rather than accusing others. You got in to bed with other countries and you shat the bed, you're going to get a verbal abusing, deal with it.
Joka, since you have brought Socrates in the limelight, you should also point out the end of "poor" Socrates' pragmatism...
Also, if you read Aristophanes, you'll be astonished to find out that he lampooned Athenian politicians for their corruption. I wouldn't change a single iota from what he wrote, two and a half millenia ago. We deal with it for thousands of years...
What we find astonishing and inexplicable is the brutality of the German "satire-lampoon-enter-whichever- word-fits- here". I mean some German media even accused us of daring to use "a different alphabet than the Latin one (!!!)" (forgetting to point out that the Latin alphabet is nothing more than a variation of the Chalcidian one...but that's another story ;) )...or that we're "a civilization that declines for 2000 years".
We're used to satire or political lampoon...the brutality of the German unimaginative "satire" is what astonishes us (I guess the stereotypical German caricature of the man who doesn't know the meaning of the word "Witz", befits)
achillefs13
03-10-2010, 10:10 AM
we not balkans, neither europeans, neither asian. we re greeks. nice to be in the clouds. you ll find out after 3-4000 years.
a SMALL financial mess is not a mess. people don't die in the streets. we will manage. we had worst times the last 100 years.
Good one Iloxos.
justasoldier
03-10-2010, 10:12 AM
The majority of foreign investments in your country come from Greece.
Well sir,as i mentioned in another thread,and as it is very clear now,those money didn't came from Greece.Apparently,it would of be wiser for Greece to invest that same money in her own economy.
Well sir,as i mentioned in another thread,and as it is very clear now,those money didn't came from Greece.Apparently,it would of be wiser for Greece to invest that same money in her own economy.
First, unless you believe we all live in a communist state let me remind you that almost all of those investments are from the private sector and have nothing to do with state owned business.
Second you accuse the Greek state of embezzlement. No one has done that, but I guess you know better.
Third you are off topic, but this is a thread concerning Greece and like a good troll you full of misconceptions and hate you just had to "contribute". At most you'll succeed in getting the thread locked, so move along.
justasoldier
03-10-2010, 10:34 AM
First, unless you believe we all live in a communist state let me remind you that almost all of those investments are from the private sector and have nothing to do with state owned business.
Well sir excuse me but you were the one who stated that majority of investments came from Greece.
Second you accuse the Greek state of embezzlement. No one has done that, but I guess you know better.
I did not.The news paper did.
Third you are off topic, but this is a thread concerning Greece and like a good troll you full of misconceptions and hate you just had to "contribute". At most you'll succeed in getting the thread locked, so move along.
This is a public forum.The autor never specified when he opened the thread that it is concerning greece only.But on the other hand,since the majority of investments in my country came from Greece and you said they did,this thread does concern me cause those investments are now in jeopardy.I apologize if i somehow offended you or any Greek members.
iloxos
03-10-2010, 02:20 PM
Well sir,as i mentioned in another thread,and as it is very clear now,those money didn't came from Greece.
Οk, send the "german" money back then. Thats 50-100millE a year since 1991.
Oups!!!!! We are in a worst condition that us!!!!! hahahahahahahahahahahaha
m.i.t
03-11-2010, 08:04 PM
Can Greece be kicked out of union or euro zone if she can not provide union economic regulations such as budget balance ? it seems no counrty and tax payers from EU is eager to give more loans to Greece.
also they have no structural improvement program for her own economy for near future.
Kilgor
03-11-2010, 09:32 PM
we not balkans, neither europeans, neither asian. we re greeks. nice to be in the clouds. you ll find out after 3-4000 years.
a SMALL financial mess is not a mess. people don't die in the streets. we will manage. we had worst times the last 100 years.
Potential sovereign bankruptcy is not a small mess. But to be fair, your not going to be the only ones.
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