China seeks to annihilate Tibet's Buddhism - Dalai Lama

[hulaku]

Tibet's spiritual leader has said China is trying to "annihilate Buddhism", as the region marks the anniversary of a failed revolt against China in 1959.

The Dalai Lama's comments come as Tibetans also mark the anniversary of the bloody riots in 2008, which were crushed by Beijing.

China has stepped up security in Tibet's capital Lhasa amid fears of fresh protests, local residents say.

Beijing considers the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile, a separatist.

The Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet in 1959 and has since been living in India, says he only wants autonomy for Tibet within China.
Beijing says that rioters in Tibet killed at least 19 people in 2008, but Tibetan exiles say Chinese security forces killed dozens of protesters. It was the worst unrest in Tibet for 20 years.

'Prison-like conditions'
In his annual address on the 51st anniversary of the Tibetan uprising, the Dalai Lama stated that "whether the Chinese government acknowledges it or not, there is a serious problem in Tibet".

"The Chinese authorities are conducting various political campaigns, including a campaign of patriotic re-education, in many monasteries in Tibet.

"They are putting the monks and nuns in prison-like conditions, depriving them the opportunity to study and practise in peace. These conditions make the monasteries function more like museums and are intended to deliberately annihilate Buddhism."
He also accused Beijing of deploying large number of troops across Tibet and placing restrictions on travel in the region.

But the spiritual leader pledged to continue his policy of "the dialogue" with China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8559393.stm

[Confuse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8559393.stm




the guy is too inconsistant in what he says...on one hand he says one thing to the mdeia, one thing to the chinese, another thing to the tibetans.. sure it anniversary time and hardline rhetoric is expected, but this isn't going to help any talks with the chinese, it's going to further the zero trust for the dalai lama.

to be more accurate what china seeks to do is restrict the dalai lama from the tibetan buddhist picture in tibet, all of the measures are against a political linked religious system, more akin to secularism but adding in communism politics (which i don't agree with, sure separate politics from religion but don't use politics within the same religion as a counter) .. I guess this speech is to keep support among the more hardline tibetan exiles (which the lama class is losing out to in the greater exile community political power struggle).. to be far the pre-1979 era of mao was more about destroying buddhism (everything in chinese non hardline communism) and old customs through out china and not singling out tibetan regions, post-1979 was the era to try and reverse the damage.


I would say it's more a lack of understanding of tibetan buddhism along with political opposition effecting the religions links on the poltiical aspect to the dalai lama and control.. where keeping them as museums but still having religious practice isn't "annihilation" as much as it's too much control over religious practice made more severe by the political reality.. there is an attempt to have tibetan society more a part of the rest of society in china and it isn't state sponsored "annihilation", if the government really wanted to do such it would have done it decades ago either a la "white australia", "native american reeducation" scenario or free land to flood the west with people a la "winning of the west" ..

[LaoSexMachine]

So saying China is trying annihilate his religion is same thing as wanting autonomy. Why is China afraid of an old monk? China is it's own worst enemy when it comes to the Tibet issue.

[hskywalker]

So says a buddhist monk who eats meat "under docter's suggestion."

[AZZenny]

I have friends who have visited Tibet, and they were very clear that the expression of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs is very dangerous for the Tibetan locals. They were also cautioned by their guides not to engage in any discussions of religion, or to bring any indicators of personal Buddhist practice or even to show reverent behavior towards any artifacts or sites -- and of course, no pictures of the Dalai Lama under any circumstance.

Trucking Tibetan kids to Chinese schools for two generations has been a means to eradicate the Tibetan culture, including the Buddhist aspects. That along with the rape and slaughter of tens of thousands of Buddhist monks and nuns.

When I visited China many, many years ago, several Chinese people -- including two former Red Guards -- told me that the government was very determined not to let Buddhism survive as part of the culture, and certainly not as a formal religion. So by stomping out Buddhism, the authorities opened the way for Evangelical Christians, ironically.

[Solvent]

I have friends who have visited Tibet, and they were very clear that the expression of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs is very dangerous for the Tibetan locals. They were also cautioned by their guides not to engage in any discussions of religion, or to bring any indicators of personal Buddhist practice or even to show reverent behavior towards any artifacts or sites -- and of course, no pictures of the Dalai Lama under any circumstance.

Trucking Tibetan kids to Chinese schools for two generations has been a means to eradicate the Tibetan culture, including the Buddhist aspects. That along with the rape and slaughter of tens of thousands of Buddhist monks and nuns.

When I visited China many, many years ago, several Chinese people -- including two former Red Guards -- told me that the government was very determined not to let Buddhism survive as part of the culture, and certainly not as a formal religion. So by stomping out Buddhism, the authorities opened the way for Evangelical Christians, ironically.

As far as I know, the Buddhism is well practiced in China.

[Smiling_Wolf]

I would've been okay if the gov't's control was there only to prevent another brutal theocracy in Tibet - but they clearly want to take things further.

And it's not just Tibetan culture the CCP stomps on; Chinese culture too.

[TheMiddlePath]

Ancient Chinese proverb. Picture is worth a thousand words.

World Buddhist Forum. Wuxi China 2009

http://i40.tinypic.com/aubhnc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/1tr1j5.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/i1k5c7.jpg

[Eventine]

When I visited China many, many years ago, several Chinese people -- including two former Red Guards -- told me that the government was very determined not to let Buddhism survive as part of the culture, and certainly not as a formal religion. So by stomping out Buddhism, the authorities opened the way for Evangelical Christians, ironically.

Religion is seen as a dangerous political force in China when not regulated by the state. When Chinese politicians think about religion and Chinese people, they think about events like the Taiping Rebellion and the Hui Muslim Rebellions. It is not an exaggeration to say that they don't trust it at all. They prefer concepts like money, material development, and nationalism, which are much more concrete.

As for Tibetan Buddhism, it is difficult to say what the Chinese government's plans are. However, I do know that Tibet's monks and nuns are constantly watched because they are believed to harbor loyalties to the Dalai Lama. China's authority over Tibet, today, is pervasive, much more so than it has ever been in the past. This makes it difficult to imagine a trajectory along prior lines. There are clues as to what they're trying to accomplish, but it's not at all clear what the consequences and repercussions will be. It's different than demographic swamping, where at least you could quantify the degree of success/failure. Trying to reconstruct a culture along politically expedient lines - you don't know what'll happen there.

[skyrock]

Ancient Chinese proverb. Picture is worth a thousand words.

World Buddhist Forum. Wuxi China 2009


When my friend sent me the photos of the place where the event was held, a newly built Buddhist temple, I was stunned by how extravagant it is.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5725/1246719802142.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5903/1246719806520.jpg
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/2129/1246719808024.jpg
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4449/1246719808861.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/718/1246719805552.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9065/1246719807485.jpg

[Confuse]

So saying China is trying annihilate his religion is same thing as wanting autonomy. Why is China afraid of an old monk? China is it's own worst enemy when it comes to the Tibet issue.


he isn't a SIMPLE monk... just as the pope of the past held political power and still holds poltical influence today, the issue is one of holding both political and religious power which the communists would have still dealt with before the 1959 CIA backed up rising, now they just see as a political and religious figure head working for the CIA and to regain monopoly within the tibetan region and don't trust any of his "just a simple monk" talk due to reality that he isn't a "simple" monk

[Confuse]

I have friends who have visited Tibet, and they were very clear that the expression of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs is very dangerous for the Tibetan locals. They were also cautioned by their guides not to engage in any discussions of religion, or to bring any indicators of personal Buddhist practice or even to show reverent behavior towards any artifacts or sites -- and of course, no pictures of the Dalai Lama under any circumstance.

Trucking Tibetan kids to Chinese schools for two generations has been a means to eradicate the Tibetan culture, including the Buddhist aspects. That along with the rape and slaughter of tens of thousands of Buddhist monks and nuns.

When I visited China many, many years ago, several Chinese people -- including two former Red Guards -- told me that the government was very determined not to let Buddhism survive as part of the culture, and certainly not as a formal religion. So by stomping out Buddhism, the authorities opened the way for Evangelical Christians, ironically.


during the red guard cultural revolution anything old and religious was to be "stomped out" not just tibetans but everyone in china, this was a radical form of mao cultist communism almost like a national cult movement... religious topics are a sensitive but by no means meant to destroy the religion... the problem is too much contradiction between when people say china does and what happen ... they say china is systematically destroying tibetan culture and language, then say tibetan culture in tibet still survives in defiance of all effort to kill it.. so which one is it ??? .... the problem is that china is taking a road that is too much walking down the middle, one that makes no one happy without making someone else mad, thus both sides feel like they "lost out" .....china either needs to reform relations between tibetans and chinese by real religious freedom (as long as it isn't breaking the law towards other non tibetan citizens, and no religious involvment political only civilian tibetans) and address the needs that are not covered currently, the other option is forced cultural destruction and intergration like the white colonialists of "white australia" or "native american christian schools" then turn around to an already destroyed people and say "oppss sorry" when the damage is already done

[jetsetter]

China in Tibet seems very much the colonial experience with a veneer of Communist paranoia. I suggest watching the BBC series "A Year in Tibet" for more information. It is indeed true that China suppresses Tibetan Buddhism. The size of religions facilities is strictly controlled and what is taught is likewise controlled. Temples and monasteries with room for thousands only house a few dozen due to restrictions.

[Confuse]

Religion is seen as a dangerous political force in China when not regulated by the state. When Chinese politicians think about religion and Chinese people, they think about events like the Taiping Rebellion and the Hui Muslim Rebellions. It is not an exaggeration to say that they don't trust it at all. They prefer concepts like money, material development, and nationalism, which are much more concrete.

As for Tibetan Buddhism, it is difficult to say what the Chinese government's plans are. However, I do know that Tibet's monks and nuns are constantly watched because they are believed to harbor loyalties to the Dalai Lama. China's authority over Tibet, today, is pervasive, much more so than it has ever been in the past. This makes it difficult to imagine a trajectory along prior lines. There are clues as to what they're trying to accomplish, but it's not at all clear what the consequences and repercussions will be. It's different than demographic swamping, where at least you could quantify the degree of success/failure. Trying to reconstruct a culture along politically expedient lines - you don't know what'll happen there.



china isn't trying to destroy the culture or religion by to align it to the communist authority, something that the dalai lama and the lama serfdom class lost out on after 1959 "direct" rule (before this it was tibet being a state within a state, where the dalai lama was the lord running the show in tibet and the emperor having the final say for the outside relations and territorial aspects of tibet) .... what the PRC should do is allow religious freedom, but VERY clearly defined legal limits to what is regarded as religious expression and what would be damaging to non tibetans or non tibetan buddhists, also what to do with other tibetan buddhist group like followers of dorje shugen in relation to their religious rights in face of dalai lama opposition

[Confuse]

China in Tibet seems very much the colonial experience with a veneer of Communist paranoia. I suggest watching the BBC series "A Year in Tibet" for more information. It is indeed true that China suppresses Tibetan Buddhism. The size of religions facilities is strictly controlled and what is taught is likewise controlled. Temples and monasteries with room for thousands only house a few dozen due to restrictions.


yeah I watched that to, the chinese government gave access to the BBC .. what ever opinion the viewer makes is up to him/her as long as BBC presents an unbiased view. The greater problem is that change within modern tibetan society isn't well defined, without such definition any change good or bad could be regarded as "cultural genocide" if not in line with the exile point of view (this is suspect due to the political aspect as a political view is rarely unbias but in pursuit of an agenda), the dispute between the grandfather monk and his grandson that doesn't want to be religious an is caught up by the "bright lights" is more akin to general social change an not a government policy to destroy tibetan culture, the religious control aspect is one of counter to the exile influence and IMHO doesn't work, where modern tibetans never felt the suffering as a serf and is more likely to identify with an exile dalai lama over a non tibetan government in beijing that they fell marginalizes them (older generation might have a point of view that takes both sides into account as they have lived both, but on the great side they would still hold the dalai lama as a religious aspect of their lives even if they reject the political sides of it that resulted in serfdom

to those that don't know what i'm talking about in the post please watch " a year in tibet" doc by BBC was filmed in 2006-2006, watch an make your over judgement (also take into account "some" BBC scepticism that shows thorough as a western perspective of media on tibet, but overall it was balanced piece that did try and be impartial)

[Eventine]

yeah I watched that to, the chinese government gave access to the BBC .. what ever opinion the viewer makes is up to him/her as long as BBC presents an unbiased view. The greater problem is that change within modern tibetan society isn't well defined, without such definition any change good or bad could be regarded as "cultural genocide" if not in line with the exile point of view (this is suspect due to the political aspect as a political view is rarely unbias but in pursuit of an agenda), the dispute between the grandfather monk and his grandson that doesn't want to be religious an is caught up by the "bright lights" is more akin to general social change an not a government policy to destroy tibetan culture, the religious control aspect is one of counter to the exile influence and IMHO doesn't work, where modern tibetans never felt the suffering as a serf and is more likely to identify with an exile dalai lama over a non tibetan government in beijing that they fell marginalizes them (older generation might have a point of view that takes both sides into account as they have lived both, but on the great side they would still hold the dalai lama as a religious aspect of their lives even if they reject the political sides of it that resulted in serfdom

to those that don't know what i'm talking about in the post please watch " a year in tibet" doc by BBC was filmed in 2006-2006, watch an make your over judgement (also take into account "some" BBC scepticism that shows thorough as a western perspective of media on tibet, but overall it was balanced piece that did try and be impartial)

Just admit it: it's an identity issue. The problem is that the Tibetans don't feel they're Chinese. They don't feel Chinese because they were not historically Chinese and see China's presence as an occupation. The counter-argument is that identity is politically constructed. Chinese did not use to be one people, but being part of the same polity made them so. So it must be possible for Tibetans. The counter-counter-argument is that in the modern world, civilized people should support self-determination, since coercing another group to join your group is immoral. The counter-counter-counter-argument is that that's a lie; in reality there are hundreds of separatist movements and the so-called civilized countries only support the ones that benefit them. The counter-counter-counter-counter argument is that two wrongs don't make a right. And so on.

[acosta]

So says a buddhist monk who eats meat "under docter's suggestion."


eat meats? oh, no!!! you've got to be kidding.

i've respected him.


his talking"annihilate buddhism", my god!

[acosta]

Just admit it: it's an identity issue. The problem is that the Tibetans don't feel they're Chinese. They don't feel Chinese because they were not historically Chinese and see China's presence as an occupation. The counter-argument is that identity is politically constructed. Chinese did not use to be one people, but being part of the same polity made them so. So it must be possible for Tibetans. The counter-counter-argument is that in the modern world, civilized people should support self-determination, since coercing another group to join your group is immoral. The counter-counter-counter-argument is that that's a lie; in reality there are hundreds of separatist movements and the so-called civilized countries only support the ones that benefit them. The counter-counter-counter-counter argument is that two wrongs don't make a right. And so on.

where have you leant that part of history? tibetens may not be Hans, but they are part of chinese, just like the defination of Americans, you don't know this?

Even, Dalai Lama, the title was given by chinese central government. Without baptism of emperor or president of china, he wouldn't even be Dalai Lama. tibet's history is not a common history, you v got to know that.

learn something before you post.

[Henry's Fork]

When my friend sent me the photos of the place where the event was held, a newly built Buddhist temple, I was stunned by how extravagant it is.


Seeing that they looted and destroyed over 90% of Tibets monasteries and temples. Its the least that they could do. Just noticed the CCTV camera near the alter, big brother is alive an well.. :roll:

Tibetan Buddhists have always eaten meat, they have the choice. They themselves are not supposed to kill the animals, but there is no law that says you cant eat meat. The DL's doctor has indeed told him to eat more of it as he is in a very stressful position and constantly working. They used to have families in the caste system who solely dealt with the slaughter of animals for cunsumption. Same with blacksmithing. (weapons making)

[Confuse]

Seeing that they looted and destroyed over 90% of Tibets monasteries and temples. Its the least that they could do. Just noticed the CCTV camera near the alter, big brother is alive an well.. :roll:

Tibetan Buddhists have always eaten meat, they have the choice. They themselves are not supposed to kill the animals, but there is no law that says you cant eat meat. The DL's doctor has indeed told him to eat more of it as he is in a very stressful position and constantly working. They used to have families in the caste system who solely dealt with the slaughter of animals for cunsumption. Same with blacksmithing. (weapons making)


the whole post 1979 reforms to religious expression with the rebuilding of temples in tibet and across the rest of china was in part to try and reverse at least some of the damage brought by the havoc of the cultural revolution..1979 would be a watershed moment for it transfers from one communist party into a new reform led communist party .. for all it's faults you must look at the two eras not as one unit .. what the communist party of today fears is religious subversion as a result of letting religious expression return, this was seen in the rise of the falun gong into a political entity that was later taken up by the US amongst the other anti-communist factions from exile tibetans, uyghurs, chinese dissidence as a force that ultimately serves US interest to crush the communist party and remove a rival over reform of china into a more free but still powerful force

[acosta]

Seeing that they looted and destroyed over 90% of Tibets monasteries and temples. Its the least that they could do. Just noticed the CCTV camera near the alter, big brother is alive an well.. :roll:

what a lie. you should be honest.



Tibetan Buddhists have always eaten meat, they have the choice. They themselves are not supposed to kill the animals, but there is no law that says you cant eat meat. The DL's doctor has indeed told him to eat more of it as he is in a very stressful position and constantly working. They used to have families in the caste system who solely dealt with the slaughter of animals for cunsumption. Same with blacksmithing. (weapons making)

at his level, that's a real shame. he's not a young kid, or some low level monk.

[Confuse]

Just admit it: it's an identity issue. The problem is that the Tibetans don't feel they're Chinese. They don't feel Chinese because they were not historically Chinese and see China's presence as an occupation. The counter-argument is that identity is politically constructed. Chinese did not use to be one people, but being part of the same polity made them so. So it must be possible for Tibetans. The counter-counter-argument is that in the modern world, civilized people should support self-determination, since coercing another group to join your group is immoral. The counter-counter-counter-argument is that that's a lie; in reality there are hundreds of separatist movements and the so-called civilized countries only support the ones that benefit them. The counter-counter-counter-counter argument is that two wrongs don't make a right. And so on.


it worked in the past when the lama sect run their own world and the emperor didn't care what they did as long as they had allegiance to the empire, problem is this resulted in serfdom, which in later decades with the involvement of outsiders in the 1850-1930 had the 13th dalai lama push to separate from the qing dynasty and later not recognize the ROC.. this later is still gone going into modern day with the 14th .... In modern terms if they don't feel like they are chinese in the national sense it is a failure of policy to intergrate them into the rest of society (dalai lama relations are at the core of this)

[Henry's Fork]

I hear ya Confuse, since the late 80's there has been many more religious freedoms alloted to the Tibetans. Such as flying prayer flags and having alters and artworks in homes. Its just all the other ugly things that still persist to this day that makes the CCP look like some paranoid neaderthal thugs.(demanding that Nepal hands over refugees and shooting at them trying to escape or go on pilgramage, etc)

What sort of shocked me was that HK still wouldnt let Tibetan prayer flags be flown at the 100 foot Buddha, i know the Monastary there is not Tibetan but still. The crafty Tibetans found a nice little field throught the bush at the bottom of Ling Ping Drive to hang thier flags in sight of the Buddha, and the officals let it happen, so everyone wins.

[matthew.manhorn]

The photos uploaded just trashed this thread into pieces.

[Henry's Fork]

what a lie. you should be honest.
at his level, that's a real shame. he's not a young kid, or some low level monk.

You are the one who isnt honest, its documented by outsiders, as many had visited Tibet long before Mao got his pillage on. And the CCP rebuilding a bunch of them in the last 40 years doesnt erase the fact that they destroyed them in the first place.

How is it a shame? Just beacuse Chinese Buddhists and western dharma practitioners are strict vegitarians doesnt mean all the rest of the other Buddhist in the world are the same. Some Tibetans eat meat and some dont....big deal.

[Ordie]

The more anxious the Chinese become over money, fate, career and family, the more they will seek spiritual guidance.

I don't think the Dalai Lama has anything to worry about.

This article reminds us about the persecution of a messianic Jewish sect within Rome 2000 years ago......................................

[Smiling_Wolf]

The more anxious the Chinese become over money, fate, career and family, the more they will seek spiritual guidance.

I don't think the Dalai Lama has anything to worry about.

Not sure how Chinese would acclimate to the DL's presence if he truly does come back to Tibet - just his ethnicity may bar him from acceptance amongst the general Han majority, not to mention all the propaganda that has been ingrained into a lot of them.

But I do agree that the population is in desperate need of guidance (not necessarily "spiritual"), in the form of good visible role models; the DL, or just as easily a few outstanding individuals, could fill these roles.

[Smiling_Wolf]

Ancient Chinese proverb. Picture is worth a thousand words.

World Buddhist Forum. Wuxi China 2009

http://i40.tinypic.com/aubhnc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/1tr1j5.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/i1k5c7.jpg

When I talk about Chinese culture, I don't just mean its religious practices - I'm also talking about its traditions of creativity, morals, etiquette, and artistic practices such as the martial arts. The regime has had equal hand in disrupting all of these things, and still does.

Also, holding a worldwide forum for a religion is kind of pointless in a country that stiffly limits the number of worshipers it can have.

[Confuse]

Not sure how Chinese would acclimate to the DL's presence if he truly does come back to Tibet - just his ethnicity may bar him from acceptance amongst the general Han majority, not to mention all the propaganda that has been ingrained into a lot of them.

But I do agree that the population is in desperate need of guidance (not necessarily "spiritual"), in the form of good visible role models; the DL, or just as easily a few outstanding individuals, could fill these roles.


the problem in china today is that in the vacuum of religious expression after reopening to religious groups after 1979 led to abuse of religion , the rise of people using ethno or religious issues to further themselves (taiping rebellion) are more cult like than religion, this is then picked up by outside rival agencies (CIA, NED, front NGOs) as a vehicle to disrupt the PRC communists and as a rival state ...now don't go biting my head off and say that's commie propaganda, just look at it from a geopolitical perspective and it makes perfect sense.. the falun gong is a example where it gain power to rival the state (even with state officials members) with mr. li as the head then challenged the state in 1999 (the signs of it being a cult were there, but at the time of rising they still pushed forward pro communist agenda so it wasn't stopped, this also applies to uyghur rebiya in that in their rise they were part of the communist government until their power rivaled the state in their area...then BOOM)
1999 and afterwards and even before they start to get massive support and funding for an outside force...what ever grivance they had with the government gets turned into a political one that once outside becomes tools all to be unified with one goal in mind, to destroy the communists party, once the communist party is destroyed the aftermath vacuum with be made so a fractured china won't ever be in a position to challenge US dominance

[Confuse]

When I talk about Chinese culture, I don't just mean its religious practices - I'm also talking about its traditions of creativity, morals, etiquette, and artistic practices such as the martial arts. The regime has had equal hand in disrupting all of these things, and still does.

Also, holding a worldwide forum for a religion is kind of pointless in a country that stiffly limits the number of worshipers it can have.



the overseas chinese community needs to help rebuild traditional chinese culture in the mainland, here taiwan can play a vital role, along with the undamaged chinese buddhism sects it can revive buddhism among chinese (tibetan buddhism for sake of definition is more appropriately lamaism where in others there isn't a "head" living earthly buddha in the same way)... it needs to revive old traditional morals code, on the flipside the government fears it will breed "han" nationalism and alienate other ethnic groups something that will be much worse for the government as it wants a multi-ethnic state and not a han centric state, a while back some officials didn't want hanfu gatherings for this reason, even thought they were just like medieval fair type costume and cultural nostalgia rather than a real movement

[Smiling_Wolf]

the overseas chinese community needs to help rebuild traditional chinese culture in the mainland, here taiwan can play a vital role, along with the undamaged chinese buddhism sects it can revive buddhism among chinese (tibetan buddhism for sake of definition is more appropriately lamaism where in others there isn't a "head" living earthly buddha in the same way)... it needs to revive old traditional morals code, on the flipside the government fears it will breed "han" nationalism and alienate other ethnic groups something that will be much worse for the government as it wants a multi-ethnic state and not a han centric state, a while back some officials didn't want hanfu gatherings for this reason, even thought they were just like medieval fair type costume and cultural nostalgia rather than a real movement

I see a lot of overseas Chinese embracing more of the materialism in modern Asian culture than anything. There are exceptions, however, but it's hard to tell if their intentions are for good or ill. All in all, if that is what it takes to bring back trad. culture, things don't look good. Not in North America anyway; greener pastures are to be found elsewhere in ignorance. :(

And since when was morality defined by your ethnicity? I would think anybody caught in the middle of China's greed culture would appreciate a change of face.


the problem in china today is that in the vacuum of religious expression after reopening to religious groups after 1979 led to abuse of religion , the rise of people using ethno or religious issues to further themselves (taiping rebellion) are more cult like than religion, this is then picked up by outside rival agencies (CIA, NED, front NGOs) as a vehicle to disrupt the PRC communists and as a rival state ...now don't go biting my head off and say that's commie propaganda, just look at it from a geopolitical perspective and it makes perfect sense.. the falun gong is a example where it gain power to rival the state (even with state officials members) with mr. li as the head then challenged the state in 1999 (the signs of it being a cult were there, but at the time of rising they still pushed forward pro communist agenda so it wasn't stopped, this also applies to uyghur rebiya in that in their rise they were part of the communist government until their power rivaled the state in their area...then BOOM)
1999 and afterwards and even before they start to get massive support and funding for an outside force...what ever grivance they had with the government gets turned into a political one that once outside becomes tools all to be unified with one goal in mind, to destroy the communists party, once the communist party is destroyed the aftermath vacuum with be made so a fractured china won't ever be in a position to challenge US dominance

Granted, religious cults should always be outlawed, but do you have to displace an entire culture to do it? In any case, the spiritual void the gov't has created in China is what led to these "cults" forming in the first place - it makes for plenty of vulnerable, disenfranchised human beings to recruit, correct?

[Confuse]

I see a lot of overseas Chinese embracing more of the materialism in modern Asian culture than anything. There are exceptions, however, but it's hard to tell if their intentions are for good or ill.

And since when was morality defined by your ethnicity? I would think anybody caught in the middle of China's greed culture would appreciate a change of face.



Granted, religious cults should always be outlawed, but do you have to displace an entire culture to do it? In any case, the spiritual void the gov't has created in China is what led to these "cults" forming in the first place - plenty of vulnerable, disenfranchised human beings to recruit, right?




overseas chinese can still have use in reviving tradition beliefs even if they are materialistic as per their environment, that is the modern world, all countries moving towards that materialistic norm as globalization marches forward...


All cultural traditions on morals are interchangible but lets say a tibetan would be more familiar to his/her own moral norms versus someone from say norway...traditional "han" chinese confucian moral norms were the most damaged by the cultural revolution that effected all ethnic groups in china in favor of a perverted communist utopia cult nightmare, it's the majority group of the country and returning to traditional morals would at least reverse some of this "Greed" mentality brought on by going rapidly from "poor" to "rich".. in the short term it's return to old values (simple times) ..in the long term it is adjusting society to what is accepted as the "norm" which gets easier as time goes by and goes from survival wealth building to moral fulfillment when base financial needs are satisfied


the pre 1979 destruction created the vacuum in the goal of making a NK style cult based communist utopia , this failed and caused massive damage...all those in power that were opposed to such anarchic destruction in the name of communism (really just cult maoism) were the survivors and in 1979 regained political control to reform communism in china and try to reverse damage .... split it into two eras and each side had different roles and ideas for chinese society, one being pre 1979 (mainly 1960-78 mao cultism to regain top power from rivals which the cultural revolution was exploited as a purge vehicle) and post 1979 communist reformer

[jetsetter]

I do love how the current Panchen Lama is the son of two prominent Tibetan Communists and he has actually spent very little time in Tibet.

[BloodyTalon]

I do love how the current Panchen Lama is the son of two prominent Tibetan Communists and he has actually spent very little time in Tibet.
You mean the one that the Chinese government picked or the one that they're keeping in "protective custody"?

[jetsetter]

You mean the one that the Chinese government picked or the one that they're keeping in "protective custody"?

The one that the Chinese government picked.

[Smiling_Wolf]

I do love how the current Panchen Lama is the son of two prominent Tibetan Communists and he has actually spent very little time in Tibet.

Of course, because it's "dangerous" to learn about your own people, correct?

[Confuse]

Of course, because it's "dangerous" to learn about your own people, correct?

looking back at the previous panchen lama, he wasn't recognized by the new 14th dalai lama because the previous 9th panchen lama and previous 13th dalai lama were at war with each other, with the ROC caught in the middle as mediator (pretty much pre-ROC qing dynasty role of settler of internal tibetan disputes) .. one of the last acts of the ROC before the retreat to taiwan was to escort the panchen lama back to share power with the new dalai lama, the PRC entering into direct control of tibet was a consolidation of power in ALL of china and discuss with the lama exile class about how to go from self govern era of post qing era to sharing power more in line with qing era tibet were it was a state within a state and bring the dalai lama and panchen lama into the people congress as representative authority of tibetan region, but after the CIA led revolt the situation was drastically changed to wiping out the lama class authority as an enemy of the state ... if you are looking for a real bridge between the han and tibetan people it is neither the exile tibetans or the current communist party chosen panchen lama as both have political agendas, the one that could bring real change is the late panchen lama's daughter yabshi pan rinzinwangmo aka. renji as she has a foot in both worlds and contact with both sides

[rkpo]

he isn't a SIMPLE monk... just as the pope of the past held political power and still holds poltical influence today, the issue is one of holding both political and religious power which the communists would have still dealt with before the 1959 CIA backed up rising, now they just see as a political and religious figure head working for the CIA and to regain monopoly within the tibetan region and don't trust any of his "just a simple monk" talk due to reality that he isn't a "simple" monk

Calling the limited US support to Tibetan resistance against the CCP invasion of Tibet a ''CIA backed uprising'' is hilarious. China started invading Tibet the same year they had North Korea invade South Korea... it is no wonder the CIA looked at the Tibetan situation and provided training against the Chinese since US forces were fighting the Chinese during the same time period all this occured. Tibet was simply part of the communist expansion much in the same way the Nazi's tried to expand by using military force.

[TheMiddlePath]

overseas chinese can still have use in reviving tradition beliefs even if they are materialistic as per their environment, that is the modern world, all countries moving towards that materialistic norm as globalization marches forward...



In Malaysia we build a temple on the way to the gambling casino (Genting Highlands) so people can pray to heaven for a lucky strike.

http://wechang.blogspot.com/2008/05/chin-swee-temple-genting-highland.html

[Smiling_Wolf]

In Malaysia we build a temple on the way to the gambling casino (Genting Highlands) so people can pray to heaven for a lucky strike.

So it's completely pointless - since when did Buddhism teach you to reach fulfillment through material wealth?

Do the visitors have to give "donations" before they pray?

[Blue P]

the really culture killer is globalization, and spreading of capitialism. in china, the money god is much greater than any of the buddhism gods.

[Eventine]

Calling the limited US support to Tibetan resistance against the CCP invasion of Tibet a ''CIA backed uprising'' is hilarious. China started invading Tibet the same year they had North Korea invade South Korea... it is no wonder the CIA looked at the Tibetan situation and provided training against the Chinese since US forces were fighting the Chinese during the same time period all this occured. Tibet was simply part of the communist expansion much in the same way the Nazi's tried to expand by using military force.

It was, technically, a CIA backed uprising. It was also an attempt to rollback Communism. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the uprising he's talking about occurred in 1959. The Korean War was over in 1953.

[Confuse]

It was, technically, a CIA backed uprising. It was also an attempt to rollback Communism. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the uprising he's talking about occurred in 1959. The Korean War was over in 1953.


between 1951 and 1959 the PRC consolidation into all of "china" was to accomplish total central control, something that wasn't reality post qing dynasty collapse and ROC governments from beiyang government, warlordism where china was factionalized and no one had central power, to KMT 1930-45 centralization while controlled most but not all previous qing areas.. the newly established PRC was to regain and establish itself as central authority, it did recognize the 1911-1950 period of tibetan self rule and as such wanted to intergrate it into the PRC with more self rule than previous qing dynasty under a communist system, problems that resulted from proposed land reforms that threatened the established elite lands owner power and serf control along with CIA involvement by route of the dalai lama's brother's (which pretty much became a CIA agent in 1950's) influence with the high priest court came to a head in 1959

[Ordie]

I see a lot of overseas Chinese embracing more of the materialism in modern Asian culture than anything.

I beg to differ.

Church attendence within the Chinese Communities in San Francisco and Los Angeles (San Gabriel Valley)are high. Many simply seek the spiritual comfort and communalism that religion brings.

[Confuse]

I beg to differ.

Church attendence within the Chinese Communities in San Francisco and Los Angeles (San Gabriel Valley)are high. Many simply seek the spiritual comfort and communalism that religion brings.



the problem I see is that these overseas communities become clanish based upon christianity, similar to korean evangalism where it becomes a clan element and are hardcore on trying to get as many people to convert, I don't know what it is with asians and christianity but in most of my interactions with them have be trying to avoid there advances to convert me in the most polite way possible

[Blue P]

the problem I see is that these overseas communities become clanish based upon christianity, similar to korean evangalism where it becomes a clan element and are hardcore on trying to get as many people to convert\

i second that.

pure religion hardly exists in china, or maybe asia. some chinese who do go to buddhism temples to pray, only do it for their wealth and health rather than peace. and i have also seen a picture showing a korean christian joking with a korean monk by placing the hand on his head when the later was praying. things are much better in japan since buddhism is intergrated into japanese culture fairly well.

and i found more scientific you are, it gets harder to follow missionaries too. and every chinese school takes a darwinism scientific approach. it makes converting chinese into any religon every more difficult.

[rkpo]

It was, technically, a CIA backed uprising. It was also an attempt to rollback Communism. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the uprising he's talking about occurred in 1959. The Korean War was over in 1953.

The point is they started invading Tibet in 1950 the same year the North Korean war started.... China and communism back then was the enemy so it is not very difficult to comprehend why the CIA would help the Tibetans repel the Chinese invasion.