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Ordie
03-11-2010, 01:33 AM
Families fight 'racist' Israeli citizenship law
By Heather Sharp
BBC News, Jerusalem
"To leave my children, I would die. I couldn't do it," says Lana Khatib.

Five years ago, Israel's controversial citizenship law marred her first year of marriage and still looms large over everything from supermarket shopping to her fears the family might face the prospect of separation.

Adnan, who is three, and one-year-old Yosra squabble over their toys.

Born and raised in Israel, they are too young to understand that their parents both consider themselves Palestinian, but their father Taiseer is an Israeli citizen while their mother is from the occupied West Bank.

And that means, under the current law, Mrs Khatib cannot apply for citizenship.

Life and death

The law is at the centre of a long legal battle in Israel's Supreme Court, with the latest hearing last week.

For the Israeli government, it's about life and death - the prevention of lethal attacks and the survival of the only majority Jewish state in a post-Holocaust world.

For the law's critics, who include Jewish Israelis as well as Israeli Arabs, it's a struggle to use Israel's self-proclaimed standards of democracy and equal rights to overturn what they see as racist legislation.

“ I don't think it's a racist law but we have to make sure Israel stays a Jewish democratic country ”
Danny Danon Knesset member for governing Likud party
Israeli Arabs - people of Arab descent who stayed in Israel after its creation in 1948 - make up about 20% of Israel's population.

They have long faced discrimination, and some Jewish Israelis fear them as a potential "fifth column".

The Citizenship and Entry Law was passed in 2003, during the second Palestinian uprising, as waves of suicide bombings targeted Israeli public places.

Many were launched from the West Bank, some with the help of Israeli Arabs.

Initially, the law - emergency legislation that has since been extended yearly - said that no-one with a West Bank or Gaza ID card would be given permission to move to Israel to be with a spouse there.

It was amended in 2005, allowing women over 25 and men over 35 to apply for temporary permits to live in Israel, but still ruling out citizenship for all but a handful of cases.

In 2007, it was expanded to apply to citizens of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

In contrast, other non-Jews who marry Jewish Israelis can apply for citizenship through a five-year process, subject to individual security checks.

Since the founding of Israel in the wake of the Holocaust, any Jew has been able to move to Israel and claim citizenship.

'Angry and crying'

Mr and Mrs Khatib met in Jenin in 2001. "She is independent, very social, very clever," he said.

When they married three years later, Mrs Khatib was given permission to enter Israel for a single day. The day after, she went back to Jenin, alone, "angry and crying so much".

The following year, they visited each other when they could. Sometimes Mrs Khatib stayed illegally.

"I was always afraid," she says. "It was hell," adds Mr Khatib. "One day you have your wife with you, the next you don't."

Things improved after the amendment. But still Mrs Khatib has no state health insurance.

She is not allowed to work or drive and has to renew her permit every six months.

"It's very insecure. Maybe one day they won't give her the permission and I'll be left alone with two kids," said Mr Khatib.

The law's critics argue that it contradicts Israel's self-declared commitment to equal rights for all its citizens.

Sowsan Zaher, a lawyer for the Israel-Arab rights organisation Adalah - one of several that have petitioned the Supreme Court against the law - says the principle behind it is "very, very dangerous".

"It stereotypes every person just because he belongs to a national and ethnic group and discriminates against him because of that," she says.

In the court, the state's representative defended the law on security grounds.

In the past two years, 27 people who had applied for permission to join their spouses in Israel were directly involved in attempted or actual attacks, she said.


Another defender of the law, Danny Danon, a member of the Israeli Knesset, or parliament, for the governing Likud party, says security trumps other concerns.

"The well-being of Israelis comes before any other rights," he says.

But for him there is another issue at stake too - the demographic make-up of the population of Israel.

"I don't think it's a racist law. But we have to make sure Israel stays a Jewish democratic country."

Ilan Tzion, a lawyer for Fence for Life, one of several right-wing organisations also backing the law, put it more strongly.

If the law is overturned, eventually Israel will become "a Muslim state", he says, "the Jewish people will become a minority in their own country", and thus be "exterminated".

"Israel is not like any other country; it was founded on the idea that it will be place for all the Jews in the world as a refuge place," he says.

Case by case

The Khatib family live in the mixed city of Acre in northern Israel. Mr Khatib teaches both Jewish and Arab students at a local college.

"I recognise the state of Israel, but does the state of Israel recognise me?" asks Mr Khatib.

The family could leave Israel, but are strongly opposed to doing so.

"I'm not waking up every day thinking about how to destroy this state, but they are waking up every day thinking about how to kick me out of my place, of the place of my great, great, great, grandfather - before they came here to this land," he says.

Mr Khatib says he understands Israel's security fears. He wants couples to be screened on a case-by-case basis - but Israel says there have been past attackers who would have passed security checks.

The Supreme Court is likely to rule within the next few months.

Campaign groups estimate at least 15,000 couples are affected by the law. Like Mr and Mrs Khatib, they will be watching and waiting.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/8552816.stm

ISRAELI ARABS
About 1.2m, a fifth of Israel's population, are Israeli Arabs
They are citizens of Israel, but face widely documented discrimination
Former PM Ehud Olmert said there was "no doubt" Israeli Arabs had faced discrimination for "many years"
Israeli Arabs own 3.5% of Israel's land, get 3-5% of government spending and have higher poverty levels than Jewish Israelis*
There are 13 Israeli Arabs in the 120-seat Knesset, 10 representing [primarily] Arab parties *Source: Mossawa Center
And without the law, the numbers would be much higher, she added.

Furir
03-11-2010, 02:24 AM
1.

In Israel, people of Jewish descent have a lower birth rate and people of Arabic descent a higher one, and since they have an interest in keeping the State Jewish, it isn't difficult to understand why they don't want any Arab influx. They don't want to make this case legal or else they would be flooded by Palestinians trying to intermarriage between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians.

2.

In some of the opinion polls that I have seen, many Israeli Arabs may detest the Jewish influence, however the same Arabs wouldn't for all the money in the world trade their Israeli citizenship with that of a Palestinian or any other state that is a dictatorship with an economy that is in a quagmire. The Israeli Arabs appreciate the health care and schools in Israel, while at the same time lambasting Israel's existence!


My conclusion of this is, at the same time they expect the benefits of living in Israel, while at the same time working for its demise! So, no to any Arab trying to get into Israel! Just stay the **** out!

Ordie
03-11-2010, 02:32 AM
My conclusion of this is, at the same time they expect the benefits of living in Israel, while at the same time working for its demise! So, no to any Arab trying to get into Israel! Just stay the **** out!

What about the idea of Israel in adopting a Constitution that will define what an Israeli Citizen is or is not?

Excalibur
03-11-2010, 02:35 AM
No democracy in world can be perfect if it must struggle in order to survive.
If those families regard themselves as palestinians, why holding the citizenship of evil zionist entity is so important ? why they can't just move to the Palestinian Authority ?

Excalibur
03-11-2010, 02:39 AM
What about the idea of Israel in adopting a Constitution that will define what an Israeli Citizen is or is not? i guess such constitution would be raped by muslims using their demografic weapon, just as they are doing in any other place in the world.

Rakki
03-11-2010, 02:42 AM
No democracy in world can be perfect if it must struggle in order to survive.
If those families regard themselves as palestinians, why holding the citizenship of evil zionist entity is so important ? why they can't just move to the Palestinian Authority ?

The Palestinians in Israel have only their restless brethren in Gaza and West Bank to blame. I mean, I certainly wouldn't allow immigration from a group of people with questionable loyalties and a past record of ill intent. It's not thing personal, it's just the fact of life.

Ordie
03-11-2010, 02:50 AM
why they can't just move to the Palestinian Authority ?

Why would anyone move away from their hometown for generations if they don't want to?

Cabalabro
03-11-2010, 02:52 AM
In contrast, other non-Jews who marry Jewish Israelis can apply for citizenship through a five-year process, subject to individual security checks.One might think that its enough. In the end it comes down to the individual cases. If a Jew and a Palestinian falls in love and they want to build a family, have children and all that they could as well do that in Israel with Israeli citizenship. What threat is there? Do you honestly believe that one day your wife will jump up and go suicide bomb something? Or that all palestinian women are terrorists? having all those strict immigration laws sure makes sense. You should not give Israeli citizenship to anyone. But if it involves marriages/family then why not?

Ordie
03-11-2010, 02:54 AM
I certainly wouldn't allow immigration from a group of people with questionable loyalties and a past record of ill intent. It's not thing personal, it's just the fact of life.

Like Yigal Amir whose parents are from Yemen?

Hyde
03-11-2010, 03:19 AM
"their mother is from the occupied West Bank."

Explanation right there. Or can an Iraqi apply for US citizenship? :lol:

Cabalabro
03-11-2010, 03:23 AM
"their mother is from the occupied West Bank."

Explanation right there. Or can an Iraqi apply for US citizenship? :lol:

Can she? If her husband is US citizen and they have children?

Ordie
03-11-2010, 03:23 AM
"their mother is from the occupied West Bank."

Explanation right there. Or can an Iraqi apply for US citizenship? :lol:

Yes

If your spouse is a US Citizen, then you are eligible for naturalization after six years.

Ordie
03-11-2010, 03:25 AM
Can she? If her husband is US citizen and they have children?

She can be eligible for naturalization after six years.

ggk
03-11-2010, 03:35 AM
at least the children are not separated from the mother...that more important.

Atlantic Friend
03-11-2010, 03:48 AM
Mr and Mrs Khatib met in Jenin in 2001. "She is independent, very social, very clever," he said.

When they married three years later, Mrs Khatib was given permission to enter Israel for a single day. The day after, she went back to Jenin, alone, "angry and crying so much".

The following year, they visited each other when they could. Sometimes Mrs Khatib stayed illegally.

"I was always afraid," she says. "It was hell," adds Mr Khatib. "One day you have your wife with you, the next you don't."

Things improved after the amendment. But still Mrs Khatib has no state health insurance.

She is not allowed to work or drive and has to renew her permit every six months.

"It's very insecure. Maybe one day they won't give her the permission and I'll be left alone with two kids," said Mr Khatib.

It's pretty ****ed up, you have to admit. Even without citizenship, a 10-year residence permit allowing her to work would bring this family a lot more security.

ARGAR FORKBEARD
03-11-2010, 03:57 AM
religion + politics = epic fail!!

WILD WEST
03-11-2010, 09:00 AM
religion + politics = epic fail!! i agree!!!!!

PEMM
03-11-2010, 09:11 AM
1.

In Israel, people of Jewish descent have a lower birth rate and people of Arabic descent a higher one, and since they have an interest in keeping the State Jewish, it isn't difficult to understand why they don't want any Arab influx.


Wouldnt want to draw nazicard here...

hulaku
03-11-2010, 09:14 AM
religion + politics = epic fail!!


i agree!!!!!

Mahatama Gandhi : Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.

Just sayin...

Ordie
03-11-2010, 09:17 AM
religion + politics = epic fail!!

Without religion + politics, we would not have the Protestant reformation, counter reformation and the emancipation of the common man from feudalism.

Politics and religion are the human means of sorting life's daily issues and challenges.

This nice family is caught up in an arbitrary fault-line of national, political, social and religious identity of one they did not create. I really hope the courts will set aside the demographic issues and see what is best for this family to stick together.

micheal1234dd
03-11-2010, 09:18 AM
It's a good law;we need to make sure that will not be flooded with arabs and will be a minority(Jews)...

Fat Lazy American
03-11-2010, 09:19 AM
Discrimination based on location of birth isn't racism. Period. It's not complicated.

Man the BBC sure is anti-Israel. It's almost entertaining.

JBH22
03-11-2010, 09:23 AM
It's a good law;we need to make sure that will not be flooded with arabs and will be a minority(Jews)...

Simon Peres once said that on BBC The doha debate its a question of survival for the jewish state though if other state did that human right activist will chew them

micheal1234dd
03-11-2010, 09:27 AM
Simon Peres once said that on BBC The doha debate its a question of survival for the jewish state though if other state did that human right activist will chew them
It's stupid to talk to the BBC....

Ordie
03-11-2010, 09:35 AM
It's a good law;we need to make sure that will not be flooded with arabs and will be a minority(Jews)...

Define what an Israeli should be?

b0sco
03-11-2010, 09:38 AM
It's dracon, don't bother.

micheal1234dd
03-11-2010, 09:57 AM
Define what an Israeli should be?
Israel should be Jewish state and the minorities that live here should get full rights if they respect the laws...and arabs that come from different places shouldn't get a citizenship unless it's a very special case.

seraosha
03-11-2010, 10:08 AM
What, nothing of interest in the SFgate?

Just another "JOOS" thread from Ordie
/pass

micheal1234dd
03-11-2010, 10:09 AM
He loves Israel....

Uglymug
03-11-2010, 10:16 AM
Mahatama Gandhi : Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.

Just sayin...

Old mate Ghandi was also a racist tosspot who believed Africans were lesser than Indians. Who cares what he said, you can make your point about Religion and Politics being fundamentally intertwined without quoting some irrelevant goober and making the discussion more hyperbolic than necessary.

Hollis
03-11-2010, 10:19 AM
The article is a joke, when one reads this;
they are too young to understand that their parents both consider themselves PalestinianI guess I could call Israel racist for not letting me have a Israeli citizenship, especially when I do not consider myself a Israeli. Maybe I can call any other country a racist is they refuse my demand for citizenship to their country too. Probably like anything, most people just read the head lines and that is what they go on. Ordie, do you have control over where you live or do you live life vicariously as the ruler of the SF Bay Area by tell others how to live? I wonder how people in the SF Bay area would feel, If I, a Oregonian, tells them how to live and what they need to do to clean up their messes. Should Israel have a constitution just like the US. One thought pops in my mind, is the criticism against Bush for allegedly pushing the US brand on democracy on others. How about all the Islamic nations, like Iran? Articles like this is reminiscent of cold war error propaganda. We had the evil red menace, not we have the evil Juice menace.

Eye
03-11-2010, 02:08 PM
I guess I could call Israel racist for not letting me have a Israeli citizenship, especially when I do not consider myself a Israeli.
That shouldn't be a problem. I believe many people consider themselves as Poles, Russians, Irishmen etc. being simultaneously citizens of US. The same with Jews. Some of them live in European countries and posses citizenships of those countries, but they consider themselves as Jews - not Spaniards, Germans or Poles. Citizenship is not a certificate of nationality.
Of course I understand that Israeli Jews are afraid of becoming minority in Israel.

hulaku
03-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Old mate Ghandi was also a racist tosspot who believed Africans were lesser than Indians. Who cares what he said, you can make your point about Religion and Politics being fundamentally intertwined without quoting some irrelevant goober and making the discussion more hyperbolic than necessary.

Its not "Ghandi" its "Gandhi"

In todays violent world of course he would be reffered to as "some irrelevant goober"

Anyways get out of your house more often and get some fresh air. It would do you good.

OrangeWolf
03-11-2010, 03:27 PM
I fail to see the racism. What's it called when one nation is being singled out for alleged mishaps while the general **** their neighbors pull off goes on condoned and well.

Isaac Kasabian
03-11-2010, 04:17 PM
That shouldn't be a problem. I believe many people consider themselves as Poles, Russians, Irishmen etc. being simultaneously citizens of US. The same with Jews. Some of them live in European countries and posses citizenships of those countries, but they consider themselves as Jews - not Spaniards, Germans or Poles. Citizenship is not a certificate of nationality.
Of course I understand that Israeli Jews are afraid of becoming minority in Israel.

Nope, your mistaken, nationality and ethnicity are not the same thing.

I'll give this example :

The people in Portugal are Portuguese by both ethnicity and nationality, but in Spain, being Spanish is just the nationality then you have the ethnicity, being Castilian, Catalan, Galician or Basque, etc...

In this case, they are people who see themselves as "Palestinians" by nationality, but they don't stop being Arabs by ethnicity.

And in my opinion I don't give a dam about people like them, they want Israel destroyed the Jewish people killed and homeless so they can go to Gaza, Jordan or other countries of their "Arab brothers" for all I care.

Ordie
03-11-2010, 04:29 PM
In this case is people who see themselves as "Palestinians" by nationality, but they are Arabs by ethnicity.


Who are your fellow Israeli Citizens within its juristiction.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
03-11-2010, 10:52 PM
Israel>Palestine...agree with the Israelis on this one. I think, in general, it should be up to the will of the people to determine who they want in their country. But unfortunately its not the will of the people but...ugh..."political correctness".

The rest I will not touch with a 10 ft. pole

ggk
03-11-2010, 11:09 PM
And in my opinion I don't give a dam about people like them, they want Israel destroyed the Jewish people killed and homeless so they can go to Gaza, Jordan or other countries of their "Arab brothers" for all I care.

really? the parent want israel destroyed? i didnt see that in the article... you must know the two of them personally? ...

Sootan
03-11-2010, 11:42 PM
Israel>Palestine...agree with the Israelis on this one. I think, in general, it should be up to the will of the people to determine who they want in their country. But unfortunately its not the will of the people but...ugh..."political correctness".

The rest I will not touch with a 10 ft. pole

There are Arabs who are already Israeli citizens. How about their will?

alexz
03-11-2010, 11:45 PM
Why does every Gazan or W. Bank Palestinian that merries an Israeli Arab must move to racist Israel?
Wouldn't it be easier and make more sense to live in a non racist country along with their Palestinian brother in the W. Bank?

I want the unelected and self appointing super leftist Israeli courts to allow the legalize the merriage, it will hasten the end of this dictatorial institution.

ggk
03-11-2010, 11:46 PM
Why does every Gazan or W. Bank Palestinian that merries an Israeli Arab must move to racist Israel?
Wouldn't it be easier and make more sense to live in a non racist country along with their Palestinian brother in the W. Bank?

I want the unelected and self appointing super leftist Israeli courts to allow the legalize the merriage, it will hasten the end of this dictatorial institution.

probably (just like any parents) they want the best for their children....

micheal1234dd
03-11-2010, 11:52 PM
probably (just like any parents) they want the best for their children....
They have 21-22 countries....why to go to Israel(after all they consider Israel as a bad state....)?

Sootan
03-12-2010, 01:39 AM
They have 21-22 countries....why to go to Israel(after all they consider Israel as a bad state....)?

They go places, not just to Israel.

Ordie
03-12-2010, 01:43 AM
They have 21-22 countries....why to go to Israel(after all they consider Israel as a bad state....)?

Because its home to them no matter who's in charge.

ggk
03-12-2010, 02:53 AM
They have 21-22 countries....why to go to Israel(after all they consider Israel as a bad state....)?

did they? read the articles... getting a lot of silly generalization here.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
03-12-2010, 08:45 AM
There are Arabs who are already Israeli citizens. How about their will?

It says his wife is Palestinian. He chose to marry her knowing the existent laws.

Ordie
03-12-2010, 10:03 AM
It says his wife is Palestinian. He chose to marry her knowing the existent laws.

Love has no boundaries.

micheal1234dd
03-12-2010, 10:06 AM
But there are still laws...

Isaac Kasabian
03-12-2010, 11:34 AM
Who are your fellow Israeli Citizens within its juristiction.
One of them, unfortunately, they might as well go to Jordan instead of the "apartheid Zionist entity".


really? the parent want israel destroyed? i didnt see that in the article... you must know the two of them personally? ...
Don't know them, don't need to, it's quite expressed when this Israeli Arab repudiates the idea of being Israeli.


There are Arabs who are already Israeli citizens. How about their will?
Expressed by vote, throwing stones, waving "Palestinian" and PLO/Hamas flags, etc...


Love has no boundaries.
Nor does hate and extremism, but it isn't you who pay the price.

Moledet
03-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Love has no boundaries.
It isn't necessarily love, we are talking about pre-arranged marriage. It mostly has to do with money not love.

alexz
03-13-2010, 12:29 AM
Because its home to them no matter who's in charge.

Its not the home to the person who marries and Israeli Arab and comes from somewhere else. The husband or the wife got a country and can take their spouce to live over there, free of Israeli racism (and Israeli welfare cheques, income suplement cheques and child subsidy cheques).

the_Wicked
03-13-2010, 12:59 AM
One might think that its enough. In the end it comes down to the individual cases. If a Jew and a Palestinian falls in love and they want to build a family, have children and all that they could as well do that in Israel with Israeli citizenship. What threat is there? Do you honestly believe that one day your wife will jump up and go suicide bomb something? Or that all palestinian women are terrorists? having all those strict immigration laws sure makes sense. You should not give Israeli citizenship to anyone. But if it involves marriages/family then why not?

Actually, I do believe there is precedent for just that sort of thing happening. You should study the conflict more.