which is the better mountainwarrior?

[Henk]

http://www.royalmarinesofficialsite.co.uk/carjobprof18.html
http://www.gebirgsjaegerbrigade23.de/besonderheiten/heeresbergfuehrer/heeresbergfuehrer.htm

[Gringo]

oh god!!!
Not another "who's better" thread!!!

[Seraphim]

The mountain goats are pretty badass, they can climb on cliffs that are almost verticle.

[warchild1/27scout]

those al quaida mountain goats are pretty tough. you take a bandolier of ammo an ak and no shoes and go up in the hindu kush for a couple weeks. but they can't outrun a ge 7.62 mini gun. :lol:

[Andy]

What is with Austria ? But I thinkk the German Mountentroops are verry good. They have trainet with Austria Mountentroops. OH yes, Italy and France have Mountentroops to,.

Andy

[Seraphim]

I hear that those Leopard SEALS are cross training with the GOATS. Anything truths of this rumor?

[Henk]

SAS operators go through the german course, why is that?
The UK is closer to home.

[specialairservice]

SAS operators go through the german course, why is that?
The UK is closer to home.

I heard they get trained by Royal Marine mountain leaders.

[Henk]

Not everybody in the SAS mountaintroop is a "mountainleader" (it is very good possible that are are trained by mountainleaders of the royal marines)just like in the royal marines they are trained by an mountainleader that doesn't make them mountainleaders only the course does.
In the gebirgsjaegerbrigade23 are only about 80 heeresbergfuhrers who train the rest.
Both courses are instructor courses.

[digrar]

Gurkhas grow up in the mountains of Nepal ( anyone heard of a little hill called Everest.) Combined with the little buggers ferocitity and discipline I would have to say they would be near unbeatable in the mountains.

[He219]

That's a rediculous Poll!


Dutch Mariniers (http://pictures.werkenbijdemarine.nl/gallerie/index.html):

http://pictures.werkenbijdemarine.nl/gallerie/Mariniers/marns_powerp/14_R0211-36P-5-BERGTRAININ.jpg

http://pictures.werkenbijdemarine.nl/gallerie/Mariniers/marns_powerp/6_9806-034-MOUNTAIN.jpg

http://pictures.werkenbijdemarine.nl/gallerie/Mariniers/marns_powerp/1_200004-108-WINTERTR.jpg

Tirolean, Austrian, German and Italian Gebirgsjaeger have negated the Alps for quite some time. In Norway, mountain soldiers were engaged in the battles of Trondheim and Narvik, 1940. In the first battle of Narvik, correct me if I'm wrong Ichhabe, 2,000 Austrian Alpine troops supported by an equal number of German Marines fought off some 20,000 British troops but lost their undefended fleet instead. British, French and Polish troops eventually captured Narvik in a land offensive - only to give it up for the rest of the war. Nowadays French and German mountain troops routinely maneuver together. You should see the size of the Frogs' Berets- it's like a Pizza!! Hehehe KFOR (http://www.nato.int/kfor/chronicle/2003/chronicle_02/13.htm)

http://www.nato.int/kfor/images/cv/klein_sm_150.jpg

digrar:
Remember how the Fallschirmjaeger known as the "Green Devils" 'slaughtered' Gurkhas and others at Monte Cassino until they withdrew to the Gothic Line?

[duck]

In Italy the troops that did best in the mountains in WWII were french moroccans and japanese-americans, as far as I know.

For tough mountain troops today, try korean and turkish SOF.

[fng]

Just out of curiosity, HE219, would you happen to know the elevation of the highest point in the Netherlands? Dutch Marine mountaineers? Sounds like the raw ingrediants for a joke. I'm sure they are quite good, especially if they train with the British Royal Marines, it just sounds funny to me. Thanks for the pics.

[James]

While in the USMC my entire battalion attended a month long course at the USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, CA. We learned rock climbing, cliff assaults, mountain patrolling, wilderness survival, casualty evacuation, and river crossing. That was for a regular infantry battalion, but we were prety good at it. A few individuals from each company (not me) were given further training as assault climbers, so they could lead the rest of us up a cliff. It was good stuff.

How much more than what I've listed to the specially trained RM and German troops do?

[Andy]

sorry, but you Comparisons Special Forces and ''normal'' infanterie Soldiers.

andy

[James]

Actually, I wasn't comparing anything. I made a statement and asked a qeustion.

[Scrim]

James-
I never got to go to Bridgeport, but have several buddies who attended, so I have a basic idea of what goes on there albeit second-hand so I know its not easy. Wasn't one of your instructors a Royal Marine?

I saw a show on the Discovery channel a couple of years ago about the Royal Marine Mountain Leader course, it was the most insane thing Ive ever seen. This is from memory so if I am mistaken someone in the know please correct/ellaborate for me. Some of the highlights- The course started with a something like a 100k+ tactical march to a known target, the patrol navigating only at night through marshes and mountains somewhere in Scotland. They then had to succesfully assault the target (some old farmhouse manned by other Marines). Upon completion a helo picked them up an told them they were going back to ship for hot chow, showers, warm rack etc. About 20 minutes into the flight, they realised they were not going back to ship. The helo dropped them on some desolate Scottish island. Welcome to survival stage. They were relieved of all their kit except basic clothing and small survival tin, and told they would be picked up "later". A week or so later they were picked up as POWs and thus began escape and evasion followed by interrogation. Next it was of to Norway for all the cold weather training, skiing, climbing, cliff assault mountaincraft etc. At some point, a hole was cut in the 3ft foot ice with a chainsaw, they had to ski into the hole, and recite name rank and number succesfully before being allowed to exit. Once they finally climbed out of the freezing water using their ski poles to get a hold on the ice, they had to toast from a ceromonial cup (dont remember the toast or what kind of alcohol.) then it was off to the warming tent as hypothermia set in. Good stuff. I believe the course was 6-7 months long.
If you can find this tape from Discovery, watch it, its motivating as hell.
A I said, this was the INSTRUCTORs course not the regular Mountain Warfare course, I have no idea what that entails.
Semper Fi .

[specialairservice]

Yes scrim thats about it. The last stage of the course was a 160km ski to a target, recce it then attack it.

The toast was was to the queen.

The course lasts 8 months.

Theres no such thing as a regular mountain warfare course (in the Royal Marines). The course is there to train mountain leaders. The mountain leaders then train the rest of the commando at mountain warefare, cliff assult etc.
The mountain leaders also form part of the Brigade Recce Troop.

[Duke]

I was trying, but I couldn't, to find info on a service rivalry fight between the army and Marines before OEF. Just after 9/11, the Pentagon had to decide which of the nonconvention units would be the first into Afghanistan. Insertion would take place just near the base of the Hindu Kush with an elevation of 12 500 feet where the Pansherjis were engaged with the Taliban.
Now, strictly as a non partisan observation the Marines were on solid ground on why they should be first: Marines train in Artic and Mountain tactics on average of over 10 000 feet, while the Army averaged 5 000; and also the Marines train in with packanimals (little roads and remember the pics of the CIA on horses).
Eventually, the Marines lost this debate. The Army actually sent, not the 10th, but I believe the 82nd(and did a solid job). But go figure.

[James]

I don't recall a Royal Marine instructor while I was at Bridgeport. There is another summer time course offered that sounds a bit more like the mountain leader's course, though not as long, for selected Marines from various units.

Re: pack animals - in 1995, there was a "Mule Platoon" at Bridgeport. I don't know if they're still around. The Marine who taught us about these beasts was from Kentucky or someplace. I think he was the happiest Marine I ever met.

[Kitsune]

Who do you think is better?


a) Swiss Navy


b) Austrian Navy


c) Nepalese Navy



;)

[He219]

http://www.ejercito.cl/images/version-ing/ver-ing_his02.jpg

fng:

The tallest region in the NL is along the southeastern border around Limbourg with an elevation of around 300 ft! As a NATO member they are able to train with member states outside the lowlands. In '81 I skied into a Canadian unit maneuvering in the Alps, for example, and last year ran into a Chilean Mountain Unit on Portillo Ridge (11,000ft) near 22,835 foot tall Aconcagua. The UK's highest point is Mt. Ben Nevis in Scotland at a whopping 4,406 ft. The reason for posting those pic's was also to show that one should not exclude/preclude the abilities of any particular force. It is always a matter of training, exposure and determination.

There are currently 80 Heeresbergführer serving. Since 1958 there have only been 400 qualifications. See a general training video Here (http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C002D670C/CurrentBaseLink/N25CQD6E562SWINDE) (DivX Player req'd).

The following is a great site for history and general info on various Mountain Troops (http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/juni0r/gebirgs.html) (look at the bottom).

USMC training in Chile (http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/unitas/second_platoon_tackles_the_andes_GCE_Special_Cpl_Adamiec.htm)
http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/unitas/buttons/coldwlo.jpg
http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/unitas/Every_Climb_Place.htm

Nice one, kitsune! Say, are the Swiss going to host the America's Cup in Lake Geneva next year? ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

we had a play with mules once in cyprus for some bloody reason.came to a halt when a mule spooked did a runner with a MILAN Firing Post and Thermal sight on its back had to get a helicopter to hunt the bloody thing :oops:
That was the end of that cunning plan :D

[Shadow]

Does the UK have mountains? I mean real mountains not hills.

[Chris1]

shhhh shadow you don't want to say that around the welsh, they like to pretend they're mountains :D

[andrew45c]

Royal Marines are brilliant at mountain warfare which is why the U.S requested Royal Marines to hunt Taliban in the Afgan mountains.

[specialairservice]

Royal Marines are brilliant at mountain warfare which is why the U.S requested Royal Marines to hunt Taliban in the Afgan mountains

Did the US actually request the Royal Marines or did we just decide to send them because there Britains best.

[fng]

Does anyone know if the US Army mountain warefare course in Vermont is still up and running? I heard that if a soldier completes both the winter and summer phases that they receive a patch with a goat on it. Is this true and is it authorised to wear it on the BDU or Class A uniform?

[Royal]

The Royal Marine ML2 course lasts 11 months. It's broken down into 4 phases;

Basic fitness (?!) & Cliff climbing in Cornwall
Fieldcraft & Tactics - (basically Sniper & Close Recce course) in Devon & Scotland
Survival & R2I - Scotland and elsewhere
Norway - Winter basic & Final Ex

There is no ML3 (the basic grade) so candidates are tested for instructional skills as well as field/combat skills.

For the ML1 - come back and do it all again to a high enough standard to teach ML2's.

[andrew45c]

The U.S requested there assistance.

[Argyll]

Shadow what's your definition of a mountain?
The Cairngorms in Scotland,are where a lot training gets done by RM,SAS,SBS and other units.
The Royal Highland Fusileirs are now classed as Mountain warfare capable I believe,a concept taken from the US 10th Mountain Div.I read about their new battlefiled role in a magazine a while back,perhaps a Regular Squaddie can confirm if this is the case?

[Royal]

Argyll - you're right about the RHF. Don't know about stealing the idea from 10th Mountain, it's more an Army wide review of the Light Role Battalions, the Cyprus based units are desert specialising, and we already have 16 Bde.

I'd also say from seeing them in the Alps last year, that they're alot more capable than 10th Mountain were (last time I saw them was in 2000, things may have improved since then).

[Argyll]

Thanks for the heads up Royal!
Now all we need is someone who works well with water :lol: :D ;)

[specialairservice]

Argyll wrote

Now all we need is someone who works well with water

We have the marines!

[Argyll]

If you'd look at the smilies there was Sarcasm there,I was jesting with Royal!!!
I knew we had Marines!!!!! :bash: ;)

[specialairservice]

Sorry Argyll. :|

[Argyll]

:lol: nae probs!

[donnergott]

some british and dutch mountain specialists were teached in the german mountain and winter warfare school in mittenwald (germany) in every bergfuhrer course are foreign soldiers.

[Rantanplan]

I'm the Best. Nuff said.

[centa]

hey! don't foget Italian mountain troopers (Alpini) !!

All the WWI on the Italian front was fought on Alps!!!

[Rantanplan]

Pfft! I'm still the best.

[sp2c]

I wouldn't say best, but I'm definately the coolest

[Rantanplan]

My ***** is bigger then your *****.

[fantassin]

When the RHF took the mountain role, they send several officers to France for six months, in the 13th and 27th BCA to study their mountain technics and tactics. I don't see what the Brits could have learnt from the 10th Mountain since "they don't do mountains"....I think the true US Army mountain expertise lies in a unit of the Vermont National Guard.

The Brits have regularly sent company-sized unit to France to train with the French Army 27th BIM (Mountain Infantry Brigade) which is the permanent mountain unit of the French army. It often trains with the Norwegians also.

The French military high mountain military school (EMHM) in Chamonix has trained mountain leader from all over the world since its creation, including Brits, Indians and Pakistanese.

Of note is the fact that one of the two Delta force sniper killed in Mogadishu wore the French Army mountain qualification on its official picture in Class A uniform. Maybe he did a course with the French army while stationed in Germany with the 10th SFG(A).

The Groupe Militaire de Haute Montagne is a group made up of mountain experts from the EMHM and is the most highly qualified group of mountaineers within the French armed forces.

And BTW, don't forget the spaniards with their mountain brigade and their EMMOE school in Jaca....

[Ayura]

While in the USMC my entire battalion attended a month long course at the USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, CA. We learned rock climbing, cliff assaults, mountain patrolling, wilderness survival, casualty evacuation, and river crossing. That was for a regular infantry battalion, but we were prety good at it. A few individuals from each company (not me) were given further training as assault climbers, so they could lead the rest of us up a cliff. It was good stuff.

How much more than what I've listed to the specially trained RM and German troops do?

I think the Royal Marine Mountain Leaders train for something like 1/2 years. Royal will be able to answer this question :)

[fantassin]

Link to a video about the French Army's EMHM (high mountain military school).


http://www.cofat.terre.defense.gouv.fr/cofat/PhotosVideos/Videos/EMHM.mpg


French army mountaineers from the EMHM have won several winter olympic medals and world championships along the years.

[Haiw]

Just out of curiosity, HE219, would you happen to know the elevation of the highest point in the Netherlands?
322 meters. All mountain training is of course done in other countries.

[donnergott]

they were very enthusiastc winter sportsmen. thousands of them drive a long way to the alps to go skiing

[MARINO]

And what about Spanish Mountain Rangers.

[Rantanplan]

Spanish Teenage Mutant Rangers?

[MARINO]

Oh damn ok
Spanish Mountain Rangers
http://www.nato.int/kfor/chronicle/2002/chronicle_19/20.htm

[Macs.]

What about the "Brigada De Mutanto De Montaña " ? :lol:

[Rantanplan]

Are they part of the "Action Mutante"?

[MARINO]

Are they part of the "Action Mutante"? rofl rofl rofl

[Macs.]

Are they part of the "Action Mutante"? rofl rofl rofl

That movie was great ! woot

And somehow scary... :petting:

[martinexsquaddie]

uk mountains may be on the short size but there mountain enough to kill you if you don't respect them.
probably the hardest mountain troops are the indian and pakistani troops
who regularly spend up to 6months above 6000metreson the Siachin Glacier.,
If you fancy being taught by instructors who've survived fighting on the roof of the world you can!
The nehru institute of mountaineering NIM runs courses 28 days long basic and advanced mountaineering $500 plus flight thats £275 in real money :roll:
now if only I could persuade the wife I'm just popping out for a month :lol:
further details NIMIndia.com

[iflu]

let them both climb the everest and shoot each other on the top... rofl then we can count survivors.

meaningless...

[rister]

Try taking on the Swiss in the mountains,........ not even Hitler dared.

[donnergott]

german mountain troops - gebirgsjaerger

http://treff.bundeswehr.de/movies/Gebirgsjaeger.mpg?PHPSESSID=a6e1bdd267a57bef33aa645d29b9141b

[Ayura]

LOL!!!

Stop comparing mountains...There is harsh mountains on all faces of the earth. It doesn't even matter if the mountain is 15,000 feet or whatever, because you will only need to cover so much and train fighting at a particular height.

[irra!]

i'm sure that Royal Marines or USMC have very good mountain soldiers but why we must think that these amphibious units have better soldiers for the mountain than not units of alpine nations that are specifically created, trained and equiped for mountain warfare like italians Alpini's brigades or units from France, Swiss or Austria?

[oldsoak]

I dont like the comparison, because good troops led poorly can achieve less than poor troops led skillfully. The quality of the training must be factored in, the equipment, the leadership, the cohesiveness of the unit and the attitude of the individual bloke - and the ability to soldier on in the face of adversity. IMHO if all those are equal, then the title goes to who gets the most practice in.

[lorenzo]

Hey guys, first read something about Alpini troops, then talk.

You always consider Italian Army a 2nd or 3rd class army, but you don't know there are no mountain troops in the world like Alpini. Now and in WWII.

Everyone knows but you.

Latest example: which unit won gold medals in the latest few years' Cambrian Patrol? Guess who...
http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini1.jpg http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini3.jpg



British "mountain troops"? rofl

[Scrim]

Hey guys, first read something about Alpini troops, then talk.

You always consider Italian Army a 2nd or 3rd class army, but you don't know there are no mountain troops in the world like Alpini. Now and in WWII.

Everyone knows but you.

Latest example: which unit won gold medals in the latest few years' Cambrian Patrol? Guess who...
http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini1.jpg http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini3.jpg



British "mountain troops"? rofl


Huh, thats funny. This year four teams won gold, and guess what? Three of them were British. :slap:

[sheroo]

uk mountains may be on the short size but there mountain enough to kill you if you don't respect them.
probably the hardest mountain troops are the indian and pakistani troops
who regularly spend up to 6months above 6000metreson the Siachin Glacier.,
If you fancy being taught by instructors who've survived fighting on the roof of the world you can!
The nehru institute of mountaineering NIM runs courses 28 days long basic and advanced mountaineering $500 plus flight thats £275 in real money :roll:
now if only I could persuade the wife I'm just popping out for a month :lol:
further details NIMIndia.com

images from siachen
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0001.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0085.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0192.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0208.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0024.jpg

High-Altitude Commando School is the highest of its kind in the world at 15,000 feet
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15c.jpg



http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15a.jpg

[Brozozo]

Everybody knows the Yeti is the best mountain warrior.

[sheroo]

Everybody knows the Yeti is the best mountain warrior.

with your avatar in his face even the italians can take him down.

[Styker]

shhhh shadow you don't want to say that around the welsh, they like to pretend they're mountains :D

A mountain is over 2000 Meters ;)
All under this is a hill and not worth.

I think Austria, Germany, Italy and Swiss have the best with realy alpine experience. Because of the Alps and of the tradition and near to the mountains.

[MARINO]

Hey Spain is the 3 highest country in Europe after Swiss and Austria.
In the past we had 4 Mountain Divisions. Now we have just a brigade in the Pirynnes. But we have Highest mountains. Sierra Nevada, Picos de Europa, Pirynees, Sistema Central. ETC...

[Styker]

Sorry, forget the Pirynnes :oops:

[TriggerPuller]

No such thing as best though there are some better than others of course!

I have been thru the US Marine MWTC at Bridgeport 3 times. Two times for the Mountain Leaders Course(summer) and once for the Winter warfare training. I was made a Scout Skier(had to take a test) ans was chosen to blow an avalanche at 11,000ft with TNT. There is a picture of me skiing there in my album here.

TP

[Ayura]

i'm sure that Royal Marines or USMC have very good mountain soldiers but why we must think that these amphibious units have better soldiers for the mountain than not units of alpine nations that are specifically created, trained and equiped for mountain warfare like italians Alpini's brigades or units from France, Swiss or Austria?


Royal Marines aren't soldiers :bash:

[vampireuk]

i'm sure that Royal Marines or USMC have very good mountain soldiers but why we must think that these amphibious units have better soldiers for the mountain than not units of alpine nations that are specifically created, trained and equiped for mountain warfare like italians Alpini's brigades or units from France, Swiss or Austria?


Royal Marines aren't soldiers :bash:

Waiting for the punch line :P

[ash933]

Royal Marines aren't soldiers :bash:
...they're Commandos.

[noggs]

Anyone can climb mountians with proper equipment, so stop bringing it up about how good they can climb!

[MapleLeafInfantry]

Hey guys, first read something about Alpini troops, then talk.

You always consider Italian Army a 2nd or 3rd class army, but you don't know there are no mountain troops in the world like Alpini. Now and in WWII.

Everyone knows but you.

Latest example: which unit won gold medals in the latest few years' Cambrian Patrol? Guess who...
http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini1.jpg http://www.ana.it/uploaded_images/cambrian_alpini3.jpg



British "mountain troops"? rofl


Huh, thats funny. This year four teams won gold, and guess what? Three of them were British. :slap:
and one gold to the 3rd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment

[duck]

Just from gut feeling, remarkable mountain troops:

-South Korean Special Forces Brigades
-North Korean Special Operations Forces
-Turkish Special Operations Forces and mountain troops
-Italian Alpini and Special Operations Forces
-Austrian Alpine troops
-German KSK and mountain troops
-British Marine Mountain Leaders and SAS/SBS troops
-US Ranger School graduates, Special Forces detachments, Navy SEALs and post-Afghanistan 10th Mountain Division
-Norwegian Special Operations Forces
-Indian troops with experience in Kashmir
-Pakistani troops with experience in Kashmir
-Any Afghani capable of carrying a gun ;)
-Russian Spetznatz and any troops with sustained combat experience in Chechnya

Edit: I somehow get the feeling I should add US Marines with combat experience in Afghanistan. ;)

[MARINO]

Just from gut feeling, remarkable mountain troops:

-South Korean Special Forces Brigades
-North Korean Special Operations Forces
-Turkish Special Operations Forces and mountain troops
-Italian Alpini and Special Operations Forces
-Austrian Alpine troops
-German KSK and mountain troops
-British Marine Mountain Leaders and SAS/SBS troops
-US Ranger School graduates, Special Forces detachments, Navy SEALs and post-Afghanistan 10th Mountain Division
-Norwegian Special Operations Forces
-Indian troops with experience in Kashmir
-Pakistani troops with experience in Kashmir
-Any Afghani capable of carrying a gun ;)
-Russian Spetznatz and any troops with sustained combat experience in Chechnya

Edit: I somehow get the feeling I should add US Marines with combat experience in Afghanistan. ;)

And what about Spanish Mountain Rangers?????

[achilles]

which is the better mountain warrior?

the himalayan yeti

[bloddyaxe]

no best mountainwarrior is "nihon no yamabushi desu"

[ash933]

I'm gonna go with the Yeti.

[lorenzo]

Huh, thats funny. This year four teams won gold, and guess what? Three of them were British. :slap:

Let's make win the "homeguys", sometimes...
We can't win every year, let's give some satisfaction to other teams too...

You are talking about your special mountain warfare units, something like special forces.
In the Alpini troops every man(from the first to the last) has every day that what you call "special training".
It's no "a week", "a month" "a session" of mountain training. It's always mountain training, since centuries ago.

It's tradition, it's since the Roman Empire (1st, 2nd, 3rd Legio Julia Alpina "Durum in armis genus"), trough the war against the Austrian occupation in northern Italy at the end of the 19th century (Corpi franchi Cadorini under the command of Pier Fortunato Calvi), trough the birth of modern alpine troops in 1872, to the Ist and 2nd WW, to now.

This is history of mountain troops.
Please read some books about it, guys... please, read...

Ciao!

[RomanS]

ask yourselves,
besides USA, Russia and UK
How many other countries have real combat experience?

And I'm not talking about little help in some tiny little country.

[lorenzo]

Do you mean in the world wars or today?

During the two wars Italy and Alpini had more combat experience than you probably know.

Besides, Italy is the third country in the world having now soldiers in international missions (I'm talking of number of men on the combat field).

I think in the last few years they had their little part of combat experience.
Surely more than other countries.

US and UK surely have more experience, but don't understimate what Italian Army (Nassirya) and Italian Alpini (expecially in Afghanistan) did in these years.

Unfortunately all the media are focused on US and British troops, due to their casualties ( :( ), but this doesn't mean other countries are doing nothing. Probably the US/UK population think so, but is not true.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

ask yourselves,
besides USA, Russia and UK
How many other countries have real combat experience?

And I'm not talking about little help in some tiny little country.

Yeah, you guys sure cleaned up in the mountains of Afghanistan. :roll:

[lorenzo]

ask yourselves,
besides USA, Russia and UK
How many other countries have real combat experience?

And I'm not talking about little help in some tiny little country.

Besides...

during the russian campaign Alpine troops were bad equipped at all, not bad like other Italian units, but bad equpped too.

In winter 1943, after Stalingrad, during the Don assault of the russian army Alpini of the Julia division resisted for days in the snow with no shelters and very poor supplyings, with few men on the river Don sector. This to protect German Ungarian, Romanian and other Italian armies disengagement ("Quota Cividale" was the name given by the Germans to the "Signal" hill near Nowo Kalitwa, in honor of the walrus Alpine Battaillon "Cividale" that fought there).

During the following disengagement Alpini won many battles to break through the encircling they were in, due the russian army. They were like clochards, with no trucks, no tanks, no suppliyng, very few ammunition, carrying few artillery peices and all their strickened fellows on wood sleds. All this during 300 Kms in the iced russian flat (some did 500 or more Kms before being carried on a train), from the Don river to Nikolayewka (the disengagement battle), bombed by Red Army airplanes and tanks, against a cold-weather-equipped, superior in men and equipment Red Army and partisans.

It's strange but they were helped by the population during the disengagement. I'think deserve the good Italian reputation and soul.

In Nikolayewka these "men" of the Tridentina Division, after 9 days of combat in those conditions (25 breaking-trough or rear-guard battles), won the last battle after an entire day of unsuccessful assaults, with the force of their desperation, preceeding with a german tank and the last cartridges and shells a mass of people with no shoes, ripped coats and few vital force inside, against the enemy lines.

Russians were well disposed in the city of Nikolayewka, fullfilled with weapons. Italians (and few Germans and others), were in the ice cold since days.
After the final assault (it was assault or die in the cold), Alpini found in Nikolayewka "not the russians but the weapons of the russians" (cit.)

A legend says that the Russian HQ bullettin N. 630 said "Soltanto il Corpo d'Armata Alpino Italiano deve considerarsi imbattuto in terra di Russia" (Only the Italian Alpine Army has to be considered unbeated on the Russian country battlefield). I's a legend but I like to think that is true.

These are Alpini, Italian mountain troops. Nice men, hard warriors.

I'ts sad if Julia and Tridentina are names that don't tell you something.

Some info (in italian) and photos here

http://www.brigatacadore.it/pagine/Storia/Storia alpini/pag_IIGM.htm

[lorenzo]

The disengagement path.

http://www.brigatacadore.it/pagine/Storia/Storia alpini/pag_ritirata.htm

"Opening his way with fight, Division Tridentina, due to the sacrifice of the fellow divisions, transformed the disengagement in the most inarrestable and tragic push on through the enemy lines ever seen" (cit.)

[RomanS]

ask yourselves,
besides USA, Russia and UK
How many other countries have real combat experience?

And I'm not talking about little help in some tiny little country.

Yeah, you guys sure cleaned up in the mountains of Afghanistan. :roll:

oh boy
there is a lot of threads about this one out there already.
so please look

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

ask yourselves,
besides USA, Russia and UK
How many other countries have real combat experience?

And I'm not talking about little help in some tiny little country.

Yeah, you guys sure cleaned up in the mountains of Afghanistan. :roll:

oh boy
there is a lot of threads about this one out there already.
so please look

Look at what?

You invaded in '79. You left in '89. What did you achieve?

Real combat experience?, what, as in the 131st 'Maikop' Bde being annihilated in Grozny over new years 1994? And its still going ten odd years later. Ask yourself why can't Russia with all of its 'real combat experience' win in Chechnya? What excuses are you going to dig up?

How about all the 'little help' from 'little countries' that the mighty Russia is getting to clean clean up its grand fleet of rotting nuclear submarines? Little countries gifting hundreds of millions of dollars collectively to clean up your mess.

Are you incapable of cleaning up your own back yard, or do you need someone to wipe your arse for you as well?

[fantassin]

Harsh....but true. The neglect of 100s of nuclear reactors and weapons is nothing Russia should be proud of.

[Thor]

I don't really like threads with 'best' or 'better' in the topic line.. But everyone I know regards the Heeresbergführer course as world leading.

I was lucky enough to have an officer with that background as instructor during training.

[Roaming East]

Ok question, i have orders to Ft Drum with the 10th Mountain, exactly what kind of training can i expect from that?

[Thor]

Can't help you out there, it probably various a lot depending on your assignment.

[joshfox0]

Gurkhas grow up in the mountains of Nepal ( anyone heard of a little hill called Everest.) Combined with the little buggers ferocitity and discipline I would have to say they would be near unbeatable in the mountains.
ditto

[Bulabash]

Best off hmmm a bit ridiculous ,

Belgian Para Commando's do almost nothing but climb, abseil etc during a whole mont in CE Cdo in Marche Les Dames, some do the BAM (Brevète Alpiniste Militaire) in France, Instructors go to Chamonix, others go to the German Gebirgschüle or whatyever it is called now, we send ppl to the Mountain Patrol Leader's course in Pfullendorf (formerly in Weingarten) etc etc and we dont have mountains either.

Weve had visitors from al around the world to come take a peek and do the course, ive seen Rangers, US SF, Dutch KCT used to come to MLD for at least a week (im forgetting a stack of ppl here). And like the Dutch we do not have mountains here just the Ardennes (you mustve heard about that particularly picturesque piece of geography before :P )

So we have mountain qualified troops in our little army (25k army navy air force together)

in fact three Infantry Battalions, SF, engineers, arty etc.

Not saying were the best, not at all, just that just because it is a small country without real mountains doesnt mean u dont have the ppl trained to fight there. Especially in NATO where there is a lot of cross training on all levels, that way you gain knowledge that cannot be gained by first hand experience due to whatever reason.
[/url]

[catalyst]

as someone who used to work as a roping instructor......using equipment like this doesnt look very pro to me....

http://pictures.werkenbijdemarine.nl/gallerie/Mariniers/marns_powerp/14_R0211-36P-5-BERGTRAININ.jpg

[California Joe]

Fantassin is right about that unit in the Vermont National Guard. I grew up with one of the instructors there. He's scary good at what he does. But yes these types of threads are silly.

Roaming, last time I was at Ft. Drum doing a job for the Army we got to watch some training and it was rather strenuous..... p-) Course it was the middle of summer and about 90 degrees out.

[derkrieger]

Zhe Germans and Switzerland have really top notch mountainwarriors AFAIK. Marines would fight courageously everywhere no doubt, but mountains belong to Gebirgsjaeger.

[Inconnu]

Chasseur Alpin it is the best.

[Thor]

Gents, please give it a rest.



Gurkhas grow up in the mountains of Nepal ( anyone heard of a little hill called Everest.) Combined with the little buggers ferocitity and discipline I would have to say they would be near unbeatable in the mountains.
They're a great fighting force, but as always the foundation for a good unit is selection.

http://www.reportage.org/2001/NepalGurkhas/PagesGhurkasFrames/Article.html

The Gurkha unit that was sent to Monte Cassino in WW2 fought with pride but was eradicated by the German 1st Fallschirmsjäger Division.

[CMNot]

Although the topic is dumb, I would like to know how you can compare two units from 60+ years ago to two units today. Just out of interest.

Times change, equipment changes, training changes. Way of the world.

[Thor]

All units are keen on having a good track record. I'm sure it's a somewhat fair question though.

[CMNot]

All units are keen on having a good track record.

For sure.

But you can differentiate this question from "whose is the l33735t l337 unit; Delta or SAS??"?

I doubt there is any amongst us in the privileged position of having served/trained in both units.

I would however hazard a guess, that none of us would particularly like to find ourselves against them p-)

[Thor]

Please, let's discuss this on a serious level or not at all. The subject is excellent but the topic is silly.

[Roaming East]

hmmm guess i better work on my upper body a bit more

[Para]

The only way to sort this out is to have annual competition between the Mountain forces, and it should be held at a different site every year.

[ramy]

no one here knows who is better unless they have had extensive experience with both units...

[RGRBOX]

oh god!!!
Not another "who's better" thread!!!

X2

I've been to the Gibergsjager School when I was in Germany.. Kicks ass. But I've heard some of the **** that the Royal Marine Mountain Warfare Instrutors have to go thru.. tuff ****..

Over..

[Thor]

mikebox, and still there are people that go through tougher ****. It's not about that, it's about the starting level of candiates and the aim of the course.

The royal marines mountain leader course wants to make arctic/mountain combat specialists out of people with limited experience in that field.

The heeresbergführer course focuses on bringing candidates to the highest level of military purpose climbing. Here even experienced candidates have a lot to learn.

Two different things, no reason to compare them.

[RGRBOX]

mikebox, and still there are people that go through tougher ****. It's not about that, it's about the starting level of candiates and the aim of the course.

The royal marines mountain leader course wants to make arctic/mountain combat specialists out of people with limited experience in that field.

The heeresbergführer course focuses more on bringing candidates to the highest level of military purpose climbing. Here even experienced candidates have a lot to learn.

Two different things, no reason to compare them.

x2 thanks..

[RGRBOX]

From what I've read, the Chilian Mountain troops are the best...

[Thor]

Spiderman roxors too

[James]

Threads that were started more than two years ago rock most of all.

[Aerosoul]

Threads that were started more than two years ago rock most of all.

Yep. fo sho.

[Pulsar]

Gurkhas. The rest are just pretenders.

[jakdo]

the realy and one of the hardest competition for mountaintroops was in triol/austria in 2005.

the edelweiss raid

a competition between german, switz and austrian gebirgsjäger.
they had to do a march of 40 km with height of 4000 metres during 2 days.

the first: jägerbataillon 26 (12h52 min.) Austria
second: jägerbataillon 15 Austria
third: gebirgsinfanteriebrigade Switzerland


http://www.bundesheer.at/archiv/a2005/edelweiss_raid/beschreibung.shtml


http://www.bundesheer.at/archiv/a2005/edelweiss_raid/uebungsraum.shtml

http://www.bundesheer.at/archiv/a2005/edelweiss_raid/uebungsraum.shtml

the austrian won 2004 also the edelweiss raid.

jakdo

[Sten3]

most of them trained by AUSTRIAN "highmountaintroop instructors" ...

[California Joe]

I'm pretty sure Royal is a mountain leader. Maybe he was 2 years ago anyway. WHEN THIS FRIGGING THREAD WAS STARTED!

The Vermont National Guard Unit is also sponsored by Burton Snowboards. Cause once you get up the mountain you might want to get back down fast. p-)