Latvian Nazi unit veterans march

[Mango Madness]

Thousands pay tribute to Latvia's fallen Nazi troops

Tories' European allies back march despite protests by Jewish groups
By Tony Paterson in Riga

Wednesday, 17 March 2010

They turned out in their hundreds despite the snow: grizzled old men in overcoats and thick anoraks. Nearly all of them were in their late eighties and many hobbled on walking sticks. Watched by more than 1,000 blue-uniformed riot police, they brandished red-and-white Latvian national flags and barked out patriotic wartime "warrior songs" that echoed ominously through the narrow streets of Riga's old town.

The march, by some 350 surviving former members of Latvia's Nazi Waffen SS division and more than 2,000 of their supporters, looked like an act of collective octogenarian defiance. In many ways, it was.

Only hours earlier, Efraim Zuroff of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, the man currently considered to be the world's leading Nazi hunter, had called on Latvia to ban public celebrations marking the country's controversial Legionnaires' Day, calling it an "attempt to rewrite history". He was backed by Jewish groups, Holocaust memorial organisations and by Nils Usakovs, Riga's ethnic Russian Mayor, who insisted: "It is a bit difficult to claim to be a hero if you were fighting for the Nazis." But at the last minute, Riga's district court overturned the ban after judges agreed that a city which last year permitted a controversial gay pride parade could not in all fairness prohibit a march by former Waffen SS men.
Controversy has always surrounded Latvia's so-called Legionnaires' Day. It marks the anniversary of a 1943 battle in which two Latvian divisions of some 30,000 Waffen SS troops inflicted defeat on the Soviet Red Army. This year, however, the occasion has put the spotlight on David Cameron's Conservative Party, which is politically in bed with the event's backers. The Tory leader's decision to remove his party from the centre-right bloc in the European Parliament has realigned the Conservatives with questionable right-wing groups such as Latvia's Fatherland and Freedom party, which helped to organise yesterday's parade.

After an emotional church service held in Riga's 14th-century cathedral, more than 2,000 Nazi veterans and their supporters were allowed to march freely through the snowbound streets of the city. Flanked by hundreds of Latvian flags, they placed flowers and Waffen SS memorabilia at the foot of the city's 1930s-built freedom and fatherland monument, which was erected to celebrate Latvia's post-First World War independence.

A large gang of young ethnic Russians represented the other side. They brandished placards bearing the words "Waffen SS" and the names of Latvian villages where atrocities against Jews were committed by Latvian Waffen SS members during the war. Some 75,000 Jews were murdered in the country during the Nazi occupation. "It is disgraceful that these people should be allowed to march here," said one of them, called Mikhail, in his early thirties. "All the Russians are against it," he insisted.

Riga's inhabitants, who number close to a million, are equally divided between Russians and Latvians. Yet the Russian anti-Waffen SS protesters were in the minority during yesterday's celebrations. In Riga, a capital city that was part of the Soviet Union until 1990, anti-Soviet resentment remains high. "These Waffen SS veterans were fighting for the liberation of Latvia," said one respectable-looking man in his fifties. "They have a right to their celebration."

That view is echoed by 86-year-old Visvaldis Lacis, one of 140,000 Latvians who fought on the German side during the Second World War. Mr Lacis was drafted into the Waffen SS in 1943 and insists he was fighting for an independent Latvia. He points out that Latvians were prohibited from joining the regular German army and were only permitted to serve in Waffen SS "legions".

"The Germans and Russians invaded Latvia for centuries and incorporated us into our empires," he said. "We chose the lesser of two evils because during the German occupation, the Germans killed or deported 18,000 Latvians, whereas the Russians killed or deported 300,000. Were we not right to make such a choice?" he asked.

Many Latvian SS veterans insist that they were not party to atrocities. However, Jewish groups point out that Latvian police were recruited by the Germans and took part in the Holocaust. They were responsible for the mass execution of Jews after the Nazi invasion in 1941. These men later willingly joined the Waffen SS. Historians point out that they were involved in a war against so-called "partisans" which almost certainly involved mass shootings.

"With all my sympathy for the victims of Communism, the crimes of Communism are simply not the same as the Holocaust. Part of this is fuelled by a desire to deflect attention away from the extensive collaboration with the Nazis during the Second World War," Mr Zuroff said. "They thought they were fighting for Latvia but the real beneficiary of these men's service and bravery was Nazi Germany."

The LNNK: Cameron's awkward ally
When David Cameron promised to pull the Conservative Party out of the centre-right coalition that sits in the European Parliament, he may not have expected to find himself in a new grouping with the Fatherland and Freedom party. The Latvian group's celebration of SS veterans is nothing new, but its potential to cause political headaches for Mr Cameron can only increase in an election year.

One of the oldest parties in Latvia, the LNNK, as it is also known, has been represented in parliament since 1993. Its most prominent figure is Juris Dobelis, a Latvian nationalist who commemorates the country's Waffen-SS men every year. To Mr Dobelis, this marks his country's proud resistance against the Russian army; to many foreign critics, it looks like apologism. Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called the Conservatives' connection with the Fatherland and Freedom party "sickening". In reply to that remark, Mr Dobelis last year insisted Mr Miliband was "wrong". "He does not know the history of Latvia," he said.
Efraim Zuroff, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's chief Nazi hunter, also criticises the LNNK, saying the party's support for the commemorations is an effort to "whitewash the villains, dishonour the victims, and rob the heroes of their well-deserved pride". LNNK leader Roberts Zile rejects that charge, insisting that his group does nothing to celebrate Nazism. To say otherwise, he wrote, "is simply absurd".


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/thousands-pay-tribute-to-latvias-fallen-nazi-troops-1922388.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/_fgzMPWLmgI

Nice Hitler salute at 1:17

[CaptMorgan68]

a Waffen SS parade in Europe... wow(.....

[TallGuy]

Not that I'm condoning this march, but these guys are just remembering their fallen comrades. It's the Neo-Nazis who are making them look bad. Most of the Baltic members of the Waffen-SS joined so they could fight the Soviets, not because of the Nazi ideology.

[Danik]

Not that I'm condoning this march, but these guys are just remembering their fallen comrades. It's the Neo-Nazis who are making them look bad. Most of the Baltic members of the Waffen-SS joined so they could fight the Soviets, not because of the Nazi ideology.

"We chose the lesser of two evils because during the German occupation, the Germans killed or deported 18,000 Latvians, whereas the Russians killed or deported 300,000. Were we not right to make such a choice?" he asked.

I suppose the tens of thousands of Latvian Jews were just Jews then...

[Cstafford]

Breaking out the popcorn

[hskywalker]

Didn't the soviets executes all SS members?

[Russianlynxy]

Didn't the soviets executes all SS members?

I'm sure people did their best to hide it...
Now when there are independent states and "freedom of expression" - they come out in all their glory, because no one can stop them.

pathetic bastards..

[ghostt888]

Well in my humble opinion veterans of all sides should be able to show their respect to their former friends and comrades. I doubt most of these men were running around Latvia killing Jewish Latvians. Just as most German soldiers were not monsters who killed people simply because of religious beliefs. War is terrible and both sides deserve recognition for there loss.

[Sootan]

Well in my humble opinion veterans of all sides should be able to show their respect to their former friends and comrades. I doubt most of these men were running around Latvia killing Jewish Latvians. Just as most German soldiers were not monsters who killed people simply because of religious beliefs. War is terrible and both sides deserve recognition for there loss.
I thought the consensus is that the SS is excluded from that kind of sympathetic cosideration?

[Mango Madness]

Well in my humble opinion veterans of all sides should be able to show their respect to their former friends and comrades. I doubt most of these men were running around Latvia killing Jewish Latvians. Just as most German soldiers were not monsters who killed people simply because of religious beliefs. War is terrible and both sides deserve recognition for there loss.
So you would be ok with allowing Nazi veteran commemoration marches in Germany?

[Flamming_Python]

Yeah 'liberating' your country by fighting for Nazi Germany - great

[ghostt888]

So you would be ok with allowing Nazi veteran commemoration marches in Germany?

Most members of the Waffen-SS who were responsible for unspeakable atrocities have been tried or are dead. For the average Waffen-SS, Heer, Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe fighting man it should be ok to be publicly recognized. Not necessarily celebrated but their sacrifice remembered and given the chance to publicly remember fallen comrades. Its a major part of German history whether they like it or not. I would say the same about any fighting force after they have grown old and the history be remembered.

[Euroamerican]

What an effing mess.

Your country has been taken over and is being ethnically cleansed by one big neighbor country, and then another big neighbor invades and you get to choose if you want to serve the new murderous master or go to a K-Lager yourself. The new master says you can fight for your freedom, but then you get lumped in with genocidal elements in the process. Then, the old master comes back to power and you get rolled up again. I'm surprised there are any of these old guys left alive, let alone any of a few true Nazis amongst them.

Parades or respect for old war vets? Yes. For old verified Nazis? Never.

[Marmot1]

Yeah 'liberating' your country by fighting for Nazi Germany - great

And "liberating" your country by fighting for communist Soviet Union was any better?

[Finn76]

"We chose the lesser of two evils because during the German occupation, the Germans killed or deported 18,000 Latvians, whereas the Russians killed or deported 300,000. Were we not right to make such a choice?" he asked.

I suppose the tens of thousands of Latvian Jews were just Jews then...

Are you telling that 18000, supposedly jews, are more valuable as humans than 300000 other people?
I thought that ubermensch crap was dead with nazi regime, i guess i was wrong..

[tommy00]

And in 9'th May there's gonna be a Soviet unit veterans march,.....are we act like insulted children then to.....

[pocoloco]

Are you telling that 18000, supposedly jews, are more valuable as humans than 300000 other people?
I thought that ubermensch crap was dead with nazi regime, i guess i was wrong..

He meant that 18000 didn't include the _tens_ of thousands of Latvian Jews, I think.

[sarhat]

And in 9'th May there's gonna be a Soviet unit veterans march,.....are we act like insulted children then to.....

they deserve this right.

[tommy00]

they deserve this right.

Not more then any other, who fight in war.....
"Your side" is only your side,.....

[Jippo]

they deserve this right.

Sure, as do the Germans and Latvians.

[Breerman]

There's a huge Soviet victory day parade every year in Moscow. Stop it and you can ask the same from others.

[sarhat]

Not more then any other, who fight in war.....
"Your side" is only your side,.....


Sure, as do the Germans and Latvians.

Different is that "this side" won and changed a history how "this side'' wanted. And nazi veterans should keep quite, like they were last half of century. Nazi veterans just excite hearts of young guys, which will break their life in future with this racist ideology.

[TakeIt]

Sure, as do the Germans and Latvians.
Care to explain what they did to deserve the honour?

[lightfire]

It's easy to jump and call them Nazis, paint them in jew killers colors etc. In that way propaganda machine scream about nazi marches, group all Baltic states together as if all fought for nazis. Really sad, since Those people celebrated a date of a battle against soviets, and Latvian Legion as a whole did not participate in Hollocaust, nor shared Nazi ideology.

[Jippo]

Care to explain what they did to deserve the honour?

They fought and survived?

If you want to open this ****bucket, you also must ask what right celebrate do the Russian veterans of:

1939 Poland
1939 Finland
1939 Baltics
...

I'm ok for everyone celebrating for their own personal achievements, no problem. I see i.e. NKVD in very much same light as Waffen SS, so if I am about to get offended about Waffen SS parade, I should also get offended by 9th May, shouldn't I?

[tommy00]

Different is that "this side" won and changed a history how "this side'' wanted. And nazi veterans should keep quite, like they were last half of century. Nazi veterans just excite hearts of young guys, which will break their life in future with this racist ideology.

Only difference in that one side is your side.....and that's it....Therefor, you are not in the position to jugde anybody, who ended up beeing in other side...
War is over, it ended 65 years a go...
And, if some old folks like to remember past days and their fallen comrades,......fine
Whetear they were in Soviet, German, US, Italian.......and whatever side....

[Jippo]

Different is that "this side" won and changed a history how "this side'' wanted. And communist veterans should keep quite, like they were last half of century. Communist veterans just excite hearts of young guys, which will break their life in future with this nationalistic ideology.

Do you really think so?

I changed the words so you may have a look how stupid that sounds.

[sarhat]

It's easy to jump and call them Nazis, paint them in jew killers colors etc. In that way propaganda machine scream about nazi marches, group all Baltic states together as if all fought for nazis. Really sad, since Those people celebrated a date of a battle against soviets, and Latvian Legion as a whole did not participate in Hollocaust, nor shared Nazi ideology.

Old solders should have a day to remeber the past, but in this case this event should be made very carefully. Bacause this parade would be a victim of propaganda, and i think organizers knew it.

[tommy00]

Old solders should have a day to remeber the past, but in this case this event should be made very carefully. Bacause this parade would be a victim of propaganda, and i think organizers knew it.
I do agree,...in some point.
Bud who is banging the propaganda-drums about this event.....
Are latvians the ones who yelling in big news-channels about it,....or does this mostly coming from some other country....
And, what is a 9'th May parade in Red Square, is it not a huge propaganda-event....

[lightfire]

Old solders should have a day to remeber the past, but in this case this event should be made very carefully. Bacause this parade would be a victim of propaganda, and i think organizers knew it.

Well, they were careful, they did not bring swastikas or smth like that. Although there were several separate duded who had some beef against jews, but they were quickly taken away by the police. During the demonstrations there were Latvian flags only (and Lithuanian for some reason) and in any chance given they(organizers) remind what they fought for and why. As for propaganda, that's for the other side to explain (the one, who calls this thing Nazi)

[sarhat]

Do you really think so?

I changed the words so you may have a look how stupid that sounds.

I think that we can't change words when it comes to the history facts. It's not in an ideal world and we always should step from some conditions, which just they are.

[sarhat]

Well, they were careful, they did not bring swastikas or smth like that. Although there were several separate duded who had some beef against jews, but they were quickly taken away by the police. During the demonstrations there were Latvian flags only (and Lithuanian for some reason) and in any chance given they(organizers) remind what they fought for and why. As for propaganda, that's for the other side to explain (the one, who calls this thing Nazi)


then may be i am wrong. sorry.

[Holycrusader]

So many defenders of SS members here :(
... I always thought that being ex SS member is something to be ashamed, and not something to be worth showing on parade...

[lightfire]

So many defenders of SS members here :(
... I always thought that being ex SS member is something to be ashamed, and not something to be worth showing on parade...

Is it sad because you pretend you have no clue about what Latvian legion was and did? Ones, who did any crimes should be ashamed - what crimes Latvian legion(not separate members) has done? Is it a criminal organization?

[Jippo]

To Sarhat: So winners do not need to have guilt, need not to be judged and all fault for everything is simply delegated to the loosing side?

Are you serious?

Problem here is that we are not talking about historical facts, but Russian propaganda in the year 2010!

[Abyr]

If you want to open this ****bucket, you also must ask what right celebrate do the Russian veterans of:

1939 Poland
1939 Finland
1939 Baltics
...
Pray tell when do Russians celebrate these dates.
The only one holiday that is being celebrated that I know of is 9th May - the end of Great Patriotic war, which has started 22nd June 1941 and ended 9th May 1945.


I see i.e. NKVD in very much same light as Waffen SS, so if I am about to get offended about Waffen SS parade, I should also get offended by 9th May, shouldn't I?
But are you offended by this SS march?

[Jippo]

But are you offended by this SS march?

No, I am not. To be offeneded by such a thing is absolutely ridiculous.

[Abyr]

No, I am not. To be offeneded by such a thing is absolutely ridiculous.
Then why did you mention your feelings towards NKVD and that example in the first place?

[Arbody]

No, I am not. To be offeneded by such a thing is absolutely ridiculous.
I feel offended that you are not offended by SS march

[lightfire]

I feel offended that you are not offended by SS march

are you going to invite the man for a duel with pistols or smth now?p-)

[Jippo]

That'd be fun!

At sunrise tomorrow it is!

[Arbody]

are you going to invite the man for a duel with pistols or smth now?p-)
That's gay! I'll loot his cow's and rape his house

[my name again]

Looks like MP.net has become a hangoutplace for SS fans...

[Jippo]

That's gay! I'll loot his cow's and rape his house

I do like your thinking, I have to admit.

[Stonewall71]

Shame on you latvia

[Lonely Warrior]

As all we know that according to the Nurenberg Trials SS is a crime organization, responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime. Has the verdict been revised ? No!
And one of EU member country just allows to march them openly …breaching all the moral and legal principles..
So this is the double standard policy that unfortunately is wildly used ..but who knows , may be soon we will see a Al-Qaeda veterans march in some European countries .So keep at it Latvia!

[Mango Madness]

The usual Nazi apologists/Russia haters come out. There's a reason why no other capital in Europe allows Nazi veteran marches.


It's easy to jump and call them Nazis, paint them in jew killers colors etc. In that way propaganda machine scream about nazi marches, group all Baltic states together as if all fought for nazis.
They were Nazi's, Waffen SS was an organ of the Nazi party, condemned as a criminal organisation in the Nuremburg trials. They did kill jews, that's another fact. Baltic state Nazi collaborators wiped out virtually the entire Jewish population in their countries.


Really sad, since Those people celebrated a date of a battle against soviets, and Latvian Legion as a whole did not participate in Hollocaust, nor shared Nazi ideology. The same way that you could say the German military "as a whole" didn't participate in the Holocaust - give me a break. Did you see the Hitler salute that Latvian SS scum did at 1:17 in the video? Yeah, real "hated the Nazi's" heroes.

[TallGuy]

As all we know that according to the Nurenberg Trials SS is a crime organization, responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime. Has the verdict been revised ? No!

I believe some of the Baltic Waffen-SS divisions were given special consideration and were not labeled as criminals at the Nuremberg trials.

quote from Wikipedia:


Position of the US Displaced Persons Commission

In 13 April, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany(HICOG), signed by John J. McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions:" they were not to be seen as "movements," "volunteer," or "SS." In short, they had not been given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)

[pocoloco]

Just to stir the pot somewhat... it seems to me that Nazis are also allowed in Russia? They can attack emmigrants, march around, have their training camps etc. Why is this? It seems that double standards are good to go all over the world, not only in Latvia. I think Russians at least would show us good common sense and get rid of their own Nazi scum, that would serve as a great example to whole world. Then maybe smaller countries would follow the suit and disallow marches, Nazi-symbolism etc.

[OrangeWolf]

Are you telling that 18000, supposedly jews, are more valuable as humans than 300000 other people?
I thought that ubermensch crap was dead with nazi regime, i guess i was wrong..

You know the most pathetic people are the ones trying to link Nazi ideology to the Jews for dubious reasons. As you could clearly have read, if you have any basic knowledge of English, he meant that tens of thousands of LATVIAN Jews were not included in those 18.000 Latvians who were deported. The question is, quite obviously except to you, that Jewish lives would be more valuable. But if they are less valuable for not even being mentioned as part of the Latvian suffering.

May these ex-members of a criminal institute called the Waffen-SS rot in hell. The Red Army should have finished more of them. Not all units were deemed criminals, yet still they joined just another occupier, and the military aparatus helped with the holocaust by the mere fact of being present.

[Jippo]

Seriously guys, this is absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing to loose in letting some 80 year old geezer to have stroll and reminiscent their past.

If any of these guys actually had something to do with actual war crimes, they would have suffered the dire consequences under the Soviet regime a long time ago. They aren't any different from war veterans in other countries.

[Arbody]

You know the most pathetic people are the ones trying to link Nazi ideology to the Jews for dubious reasons. As you could clearly have read, if you have any basic knowledge of English, he meant that tens of thousands of LATVIAN Jews were not included in those 18.000 Latvians who were deported. The question is, quite obviously except to you, that Jewish lives would be more valuable. But if they are less valuable for not even being mentioned as part of the Latvian suffering.

May these ex-members of a criminal institute called the Waffen-SS rot in hell. The Red Army should have finished more of them.
x2 exactly

[Jippo]

I seriously wonder what you guys think about NKVD veterans who did far more harm to humanity than the Waffen SS?

[Mango Madness]

If any of these guys actually had something to do with actual war crimes, they would have suffered the dire consequences under the Soviet regime a long time ago. It's not that hard to understand, people don't like to commemorate people who fought on the side of evil, whether they themselves particpated in the atrocities or not.


They aren't any different from war veterans in other countries.Yeah, except one veterans fought to for those that liberated people from the Holocaust and the other veterans fought for those that perpetrated it. "No difference" between Nazi veterans and veterans in other countries - what a guy! Let's have al-quaeda veteran marches on the streets of Washington DC too! Only the veterans who didn't kill anyone of course!

[Jippo]

Except countries don't like to commemorate people who fought on the side of evil, whether they themselves particpated in it or not.

Yeah, except one veterans fought to liberate people from the Holocaust and another fought for those that perpetrated it. "No difference" between Nazi veterans and veterans in other countries - what a guy!

Are you too young to realise that the world is not black and white? There is no evil and good side.

From where I am standing Soviet Union was the "evil" side. SU didn't liberate anything here, instead it killed a lot of people of whom most just wanted live in peace. Yet many people "like to commemorate people who fought on the side of evil, whether they themselves particpated in it or not."

I have respect for these veterans though, why shouldn't I? I do not come here to rant next time Russians organise a military parade with SU symbols proudly presented (which, btw. is something the Latvians didn't even do). These guys saw hell and survived, hat's of to them no matter from which country or race they come from.

[Pilot_35]

Seriously guys, this is absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing to loose in letting some 80 year old geezer to have stroll and reminiscent their past.

If any of these guys actually had something to do with actual war crimes, they would have suffered the dire consequences under the Soviet regime a long time ago. They aren't any different from war veterans in other countries.

For thee Slayer 97000 Jews in Latvia are people geezer? If they do not kill they are accomplices of the killers

[boreal]

Commies should be banned like the nazis in Germany.

[Papenheims]

Would there be any difference that instead of Waffen SS label - the two Latvian divisions in German army had been called something like "Lettishe Wehrmacht division" or something similar?
Well foreigners couldn't serve in wehrmacht so in this case they were labelled as SS as it was not possible form our own national units, and the most Latvians were conscripts in those two respective Latvian SS divisions.
The generall high public support for those units back in those days is explained that Latvians would always choose Germany over Russia due to historical, cultural and mentality ties and the communist attrocities during 1939-1941 only strenghtened that opinion. So when Germany in 1941 launched attack on SU and conquered Baltics, they were really seen as liberators (even if those weren't their true intentions).

[Jippo]

For thee Slayer 97000 Jews in Latvia are people geezer? If they do not kill they are accomplices of the killers

How many perished under Soviet rule? What should we do to the accomplices of the killers?

[Breerman]

What's there to discuss? If Russia has a problem it should drop it's annual huge Soviet Victory Day parade before complaining about other countries relationship to history.

[my name again]

I seriously wonder what you guys think about NKVD veterans who did far more harm to humanity than the Waffen SS?

I cant believe you really wrote that:cantbeli:

[tommy00]

Yeah, except one veterans fought to for those that liberated people from the Holocaust and the other veterans fought for those that perpetrated it. "No difference" between Nazi veterans and veterans in other countries - what a guy!

And you forget to mention Soviet veterans, you know, thouse who occupied, killed and raped in whole East-Europa.....
I hope, that in 9 May, when thouse criminals create their marches, you gonna be here starting threads, filled with hateress and insults.....After all, just a similar criminal regime....

NOW....
I hope, text(above) written in this style, and choise of words, makes it easyer to you understand it....Just trying copy your style....

[Pilot_35]

I seriously wonder what you guys think about NKVD veterans who did far more harm to humanity than the Waffen SS?
In Russia the day staggeringly veterans NKVD and neodin normal person in Russia won't tell that they were heroes.

[Ataman]

It's incredible how many SS-fans are around there. Pathetic and disgusting. The blind hate for the SU obviously made some guys lose their humanity.

[Sumadinac]

I'm speechless...

[Mango Madness]

Are you too young to realise that the world is not black and white? There is no evil and good side.

From where I am standing Soviet Union was the "evil" side. SU didn't liberate anything here, instead it killed a lot of people of whom most just wanted live in peace. Yet many people "like to commemorate people who fought on the side of evil, whether they themselves particpated in it or not."
Except extremists like you are in the small minority. If there's one thing that all world leaders agree on is that the Nazi's were evil, try to listen to statements by them and by Jews. Europe disagrees with you and European leaders have stated how the enormous effort of the Soviet Union was heroic. Even Polish president said how grateful he was for the hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers who gave their lives to liberate Poland.

You really have no clue about facts. If Soviets had not liberated Europe then Nazi's would have exterminated the rest of the Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost). By contrast, population of all Soviet liberated countries increased dramatically after liberation and communist years (eg Polish population increased from 24 million to 38 million during communist period, compared to 6 million drop during Nazi period 1939-1945). These countries were left 'in peace' during Communism - only hardship was that they had the same standard of living as the "oppressor" country, Soviet Union, even better in most cases like Poland and East Germany.

[Mango Madness]

And you forget to mention Soviet veterans, you know, thouse who occupied, killed and raped in whole East-Europa.....
I hope, that in 9 May, when thouse criminals create their marches, you gonna be here starting threads, filled with hateress and insults.....After all, just a similar criminal regime....

NOW....
I hope, text(above) written in this style, and choise of words, makes it easyer to you understand it....Just trying copy your style....
Nazi veterans were part of military that state-sanctioned the Holocaust - rapes in Red Army were not state-sanctioned and "occupation" in EE liberated countries resulted in the population boom in these countries (the horror!) and they had the same standard of living as the "occupier" country, Soviet Union - the two are incomparable. But I guess extermination of entire population under Nazi's and population boom and same standard of living as "oppressor" under communism are "the same"...you're an idiot.

[pocoloco]

Just bit off-topic maybe but the population boom happened all over the world after WW2.

[Papenheims]

Europe disagrees with you and European leaders have stated how the enormous effort of the Soviet Union was heroic.
Winners write the history, but I don't think that "European leaders" agree on Soviet union's "heroic efforts" invading Poland together with Germany, assisting German war industry during Battle of France, and aditional teritorial conquests over Baltic, Finland and Romania.

[tommy00]

By contrast, population of all Soviet liberated countries increased dramatically after liberation and communist years (eg Polish population increased from 24 million to 38 million during communist period, compared to 6 million drop during Nazi period 1939-1945).

That sentence was brilliant.....:)
Comparing population numbers in warperion with a peaceperiod.....
Thanks for that....

[Jippo]

Except extremists like you are in the small minority.

I am far from extremist.

You fail to see that I have nothing to do with Germany, not to mention Nazi's. The country I live in was molested by the SU and attacked by the SU. We lost human lives, we lost land and homes. This was between my country and the SU. Only Nazi's in that equation were in Germany and at the time they were allied with the Soviet Union! Guess which side was the "evil" one from the point of view of my countrymen in those times?

[tommy00]

they had the same standard of living as the "occupier" country, Soviet Union - the two are incomparable.

That maybe true,(althought i don
t see, what does it proves)....bud haven't you ever thought that living standart in EE(before occupation) was a lot higher then the same in SU....

[pocoloco]

Winners write the history, but I don't think that "European leaders" agree on Soviet union's "heroic efforts" invading Poland together with Germany, assisting German war industry during Battle of France, and aditional teritorial conquests over Baltic, Finland and Romania.

But you fail to see that in Russian sense of history the Great Patriotic War started with the German invasion, Operation Barbarossa. The actions before that are, in their mind, just armed conflicts, clever diplomacy (at some points very direct and blunt "gunboat diplomacy") and so on. And with these things the Russian people have not yet made a clear account of.

It's hard to say we did wrong, easier to blame others (and now I don't just mean Russia and her people). History is a bitch, it's just comes back nagging at you, no matter if you try to hide from it or just ignore it, it raises its sometimes ugly head as long as you/we/they are ready to take things passed as they were and not try to see them through rosy lenses of false patriotism or any other ideology.

[Abyr]

I hope, that in 9 May, when thouse criminals create their marches, you gonna be here starting threads, filled with hateress and insults.....
It's sacred duty of persons such as yourself at MPN.

@Pilot35

In Russia the day staggeringly veterans NKVD and neodin normal person in Russia won't tell that they were heroes.

http://poltora-bobra.livejournal.com/21203.html

and

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8863/19627484.jpg

@pocoloco

Just to stir the pot somewhat... it seems to me that Nazis are also allowed in Russia? They can attack emmigrants, march around, have their training camps etc. Why is this? It seems that double standards are good to go all over the world, not only in Latvia. I think Russians at least would show us good common sense and get rid of their own Nazi scum, that would serve as a great example to whole world. Then maybe smaller countries would follow the suit and disallow marches, Nazi-symbolism etc.
Attack immigrants? It's the only country where such attacks happen?
March around? Come again? Who is marching and where?
Have their training camps? Where they get together and sing about how the Jews and "black-asses" control everything? If Russia'd ban such meetings, you'd be amongst the first who would claim Russia has turned backed to its totalitarian past.

There is a fine difference between idiots who write 14/88 on the walls privately and idiots, who do it (I'm simplifying here) with government's support.

[Jµµso]

Red Army tried to liberate my grandfather from he's life many times during the Winter War.

[Ataman]

Red Army tried to liberate my grandfather from he's life many times during the Winter War.

It's not about the Winter War.
And everybody knows that Leningrad was impossible to defend with the Finnish border being so close. That's why the SU demanded some territory. "In exchange, the Soviet Union would cede two municipalities with twice the territory demanded from Finland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Finland rejected and the SU declared war.

[lightfire]

As all we know that according to the Nurenberg Trials SS is a crime organization, responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime. Has the verdict been revised ? No!
And one of EU member country just allows to march them openly …breaching all the moral and legal principles..
So this is the double standard policy that unfortunately is wildly used ..but who knows , may be soon we will see a Al-Qaeda veterans march in some European countries .So keep at it Latvia!

you may twist your words as much as you like, but Latvian Waffens SS is not recognized as a criminal organization.


They were Nazi's, Waffen SS was an organ of the Nazi party, condemned as a criminal organisation in the Nuremburg trials. They did kill jews, that's another fact. Baltic state Nazi collaborators wiped out virtually the entire Jewish population in their countries..

Nice twisting of facts troll. Show me exact piece of document, where Latvian Waffen SS is recognized as criminal organization. Please, base your argument( you call it a fact), that particular Latvian Legion wiped out entire population of jews. Especially, when the legion was created after the jews have been wiped out by the particular corroborators and nazis.


The same way that you could say the German military "as a whole" didn't participate in the Holocaust - give me a break.

here, have brake champ - did wermacht participate in Hollocaust? Hitler salute is a proof of participation in Holocaust?
Aren't your intentions in this inflammatory rant is to troll the sht of this thread and get it closed.

To all asshats who believe this march was some sort of glorifying of Nazism - wake the fvuk up and stop making generalizations from smth you have no clue about.

This was not a Nazi march. This was a march of people, who remembered the soldiers of Latvian Legion - the ones who (yes) fought on the German Nazi side against the soviets for a very clear reason - don't let the 1940 happen again. You might stick your "liberation" to a very deep place - neither Nazis, nor Soviets liberated Latvia. Latvians served both in German and in Soviet military units. What was the purpose to fight in Waffen SS or in the Red Army? Well, latvians do make that distinction clearly. Was there another way? Of course. Lithuania, for instance, did not form Waffen SS divisions - germans tried that and failed. Yes, particular people coloborated, murdered jews, that does not mean responsibility belongs to whole country. Any punk can kill and justify the murder "I did it for my country", but you have a look at the facts - was Latvian legion responsible for the Holocaust? Genocide against Latvians, Russians or anyone else?

Yet when Russian propaganda spreads the news about "Baltic states which are glorifying Nazism", they speak of all, putting everyone who fought against it as "bandits, fascists" clearly brainwashing some of the population with this agenda.

[pocoloco]

Attack immigrants? It's the only country where such attacks happen?
March around? Come again? Who is marching and where?
Have their training camps? Where they get together and sing about how the Jews and "black-asses" control everything? If Russia'd ban such meetings, you'd be amongst the first who would claim Russia has turned backed to its totalitarian past.

There is a fine difference between idiots who write 14/88 on the walls privately and idiots, who do it (I'm simplifying here) with government's support.


Did I say it's only Russia? If you had read my post I was hoping that Russia shows us example how to deal with Nazi scum. If they can go around bearing their symbols, even as tattoos etc, it's marching around.

You are asking yourself that Latvia bans SS-veteran marches so why not do the same to neo-Nazis in your own country? I hope you don't approve their ideology and actions? You think they are patriotic in some sense?

I would gladly welcome Russia banning neo-nazis, that would not be an act of totalitarism but an act of sensibility, even bravery.

Those idiots that act in Russia on behalf of neo-Nazism don't act privately, do they? There are quite a number of different organisations deemed as neo-Nazis, you should know it better. And if there's an organisation then it is, organised. Quite simple.

[Jippo]

It's not about the Winter War.
And everybody knows that Leningrad was impossible to defend with the Finnish border being so close.

Soviets couldn't defend Leningrad from 3 million Finns so they had to get allied with Nazi Germany and attack Finland.

Hey man, that's an excellent story!

Shall Russia give us back Karelia if we give them twice the area from Lapland?

[Afro-European]

So many Nazi lovers in this thread.Geezzz:-(

[Mango Madness]

I am far from extremist.

You fail to see that I have nothing to do with Germany, not to mention Nazi's. The country I live in was molested by the SU and attacked by the SU. We lost human lives, we lost land and homes. This was between my country and the SU. Only Nazi's in that equation were in Germany and at the time they were allied with the Soviet Union! Guess which side was the "evil" one from the point of view of my countrymen in those times?
We are discussing WWII and not the Winter War. PS Soviets were "bad guys" for you, nothing "evil" about land grabbing as was the norm back then, that is reserved for only Nazi's.


Winners write the history, but I don't think that "European leaders" agree on Soviet union's "heroic efforts" invading Poland together with Germany, assisting German war industry during Battle of France, and aditional teritorial conquests over Baltic, Finland and Romania.
That's not what they consider heroic. The Soviet Union never participated in the Holocaust with Germany and territorial conquest was the norm back then.


That sentence was brilliant.....:)
Comparing population numbers in warperion with a peaceperiod.....
Thanks for that....
You were the one that equated the Nazi's with the Soviets, so I compared to you the results of each. The Nazi's did not allow Poland and other Slavic countries to live "in peace", they were waging war on them and exterminating them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost while Soviets did not wage war on them and their population flourished.


That maybe true,(althought i don
t see, what does it proves)....bud haven't you ever thought that living standart in EE(before occupation) was a lot higher then the same in SU....
It proves that Nazi's and Soviets 'crimes' (extermination of population under the Nazi's vs population boom and the same standard of living as 'oppressor' country under communism) were incomparable.

[Ataman]

Did I say it's only Russia? If you had read my post I was hoping that Russia shows us example how to deal with Nazi scum. If they can go around bearing their symbols, even as tattoos etc, it's marching around.

You are asking yourself that Latvia bans SS-veteran marches so why not do the same to neo-Nazis in your own country? I hope you don't approve their ideology and actions? You think they are patriotic in some sense?

Those people exist in every European country and in every democratic country they have the right to do it. Probably at leat 99,9% of Russians don't approve their ideology and nobody thinks they're patriotic. The whole nazism in Russia thing is so incredibly exaggerated.


I would gladly welcome Russia banning neo-nazis, that would not be an act of totalitarism but an act of sensibility, even bravery.

Those idiots that act in Russia on behalf of neo-Nazism don't act privately, do they? There are quite a number of different organisations deemed as neo-Nazis, you should know it better. And if there's an organisation then it is, organised. Quite simple.

I think so too. But I know very well how Western media and maybe even governments would react to it and I'm sure you know it as well.

[Jippo]

We are discussing WWII and not the Winter War. PS Soviets were "bad guys" for you, not "evil", that is reserved for only Nazi's.


World War II started from the German-Russian invasion of Poland.

[Zeev]

Niiiceeee.. I see that baltic countries are very sane.. what an exemple of democracy, EU pride!!

One more thing that just confirms that these nations are still under strong fachist influence over their societies, bah, who wants to go there anyway? Dark skies and cold weather, nothing interesting, not even the ppl..

[Ataman]

World War II started from the German-Russian invasion of Poland.

Last time I checked there was no Russia in 1939. *confused*

[Zeev]

So many Nazi lovers in this thread.Geezzz:-(

They are obviously tolerated my friend.

[pocoloco]

We are discussing WWII and not the Winter War.

Winter War _is_ part of the WW2, can't deny that no matter how twisted this discussion becomes. It's _not_ part of the Great Patriotic War, at least that's how I have learned it to be from a Soviet view of history.


It proves that Nazi's and Soviets 'crimes' (extermination of population under the Nazi's vs population boom and the same standard of living as 'oppressor' country under communism) were incomparable.

The baby boom all around the world was due men coming home from the front and enjoying family life and humping like there's no tomorrow. It has nothing to do with ideologies.

[Zeev]

There's a huge Soviet victory day parade every year in Moscow. Stop it and you can ask the same from others.

Yes because soviet army contributed with US and UK to free europe from nazism, If you don't see whats good and just in that, I guess that I have to conclude that you consider the other side was right?

[Stonewall71]

Hitler’s Foreign Legion: Waffen SS

Non German Units in the Waffen SS During World War Two

Oct 16, 2006 (http://www.suite101.com/daily.cfm/2006-10-16) Christopher Eger (http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/TheMadCossack)


Read more at Suite101: Hitler’s Foreign Legion: Waffen SS: Non German Units in the Waffen SS During World War Two (http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss#ixzz0iR27D0i9) http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss#ixzz0iR27D0i9

The Waffen-SS - which translates as "Weapon-SS" or "Armed-SS", was the military wing of the Schutzstaffel (SS) founded in 1940. The Waffen-SS was expected to be a military organization absolutely and perfectly obedient and loyal to its masters, Henrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler. During the course of WWII, the Waffen-SS grew from an elite force of 4 divisions of ethnic Germans to a multinational polyglot force of 900,000 men in 41 divisions and other units, with over half of its troop’s either foreign volunteers or conscripts. These troops were seperate from the other SS units such as the Concetration camp guards and Hitler's bodyguard units. It gained a fearsome combat reputation and committed many war crimes. Waffen-SS strength even at its peak represented only 10% of that of the regular German Army. Records are conflicting but an estimated 253,000 Waffen-SS members were killed in action, an additional 400,000 wounded and no less than 70,000 listed as missing. Many SS units were completely annihilated, along with a majority of their paperwork, making accurate historical facts sometimes very sketchy.
In July 1940, the SS began an active program to gain Western European recruits from newly conquered countries for several new Waffen-SS volunteer legions. This effort intensified after June 1941, as the SS exhorted volunteers to join the "anti-Bolshevik" campaign in the Soviet Union. Enlistment rolls show that more than 125,000 West Europeans volunteered of their own free will to join the Waffen SS. Eastern Europeans, numbering another 220,000-primarily from the Baltic States and the Ukraine also joined the Waffen SS. Despite the SS belief in the superiority of the German race, the decline in German military fortunes caused the SS to quietly shelve their racist beliefs about ‘Untermenschen’ in favor of the more practical policy of recruiting these essentially Slavic peoples to fight against the Soviets.
These units were often armed from stores of captured or substandard equipment. Their training tended to be more haphazard. Basic training lasted as short as two or three weeks. Unlike most armies no ‘parade ground training’ was conducted being replaced with aggressive live fire exercises with very real bullets. The recruits were also exposed to multiple combined arms training such as artillerymen would learn how to use radios; signals troops would learn how to fire heavy machine guns, etc.
These foreign fighters were treated differently from the German troops in the SS. They took a slightly different oath of service upon enlisting and often wore unique insignia or ethnic uniforms. Language differences were always a barrier, with most units being led by regular German SS officers who often treated their men as something like 2nd class citizens. They were exposed to less Nazi indoctrination, and the Nazi propaganda was tailored to their nationality. The were often partly motivated by their own political or nationalistic agendas such as in the Balkan areas. Himmler ordered that new Waffen-SS units formed with men of non-Germanic ethnicity were to be designated Division der SS (or Division of the SS) rather than SS Division. The wearing of the SS runes on the collar was typically not done, with several of these formations wearing a unique national insignia instead. Some units even wore nonstandard uniforms, for example the 13th SS Hanshar Division had its Bosnian moslem soldiers wear a Fez hat (see picture). Soldiers of non-German citizenship in these units had their rank prefix changed from SS to Waffen (e.g. a Serbian Hauptscharführer would be referred to as a Waffen-Hauptscharführer rather than SS-Hauptscharführer). The combat ability of the divisions der SS varied greatly. For example, the Norwegian, French and Estonian formations performed exceptionally, while the Albanian and Ukrainian units performed poorly. Some of these units were formed for propaganda purposes only, such as the British Freecorps which was raised from British prisoners of War and was generally kept from combat operations.




They were often the most disciplined and fanatic of SS troopers.. With combat reputations ranging from excellent to fair. Unit such as Nordland, Leon Degrelle's Wallonien Legion, and Langemarck contained Europeans that volunteered for service in the "anti-Bolshevik" crusade against the Soviet Union. Waffen-SS troops as a whole earned a distinguished combat reputation during WWII, renowned for both stunning offensive victories and tenacious defensive operations. Without question, many SS troops exhibited incredible feats of bravery, courage and tactical brilliance, throughout the duration of the conflict. While many infantry units fought on the front lines, more were often relegated to security duty and anti-partisan sweeps. This type of service against guerilla bands who themselves took no prisoners lead to many atrocities. The combat record of several of these units such as the 29th Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 1) on such suhnemassnahmen = "atonement operations" was often too grisly even for military journalists to cover and stains the Waffen SS to this day in a portrait of horror.
Late in the war as Germany's hope of victory waned, these volunteers fought harder and more recklessly. Considered traitors by their countrymen they had no home to return to. These men with nothing left to lose became the worst sort of man you wanted to encounter on the battlefield. Typically these units fought into extinction, refusing to surrender for fears they would be repatriated to their home countries. Thousands of Russian Cossacks serving in the SS Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps were executed when turned over to Soviet troops as were members of the Serbian Volunteer Corps when turned over to Tito’s Partisans. More moderate countries such as Norway, Denmark and Britain jailed their wayward SS volunteers for as many as fifteen years. Between 1949 and 2007 the German government investigated 107,000 former members of the SS (about:blank#) for Nazi war crimes leading to 6500 convictions. Investigations are still pending in several (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/28/wnazis228.xml) particularly in the case of an 86-year old Dane and others.
The purpose of the Waffen-SS was to impose Hitler's world view on the greater European continent and those non-German Europeans that served him often found them living out the rest of their lives in exile, their service to him voiding their pre-war life.
*The following is a break down of the Foreign Units of the Waffen-SS, by no means all inclusive.
Country/Ethnicity - Estimated # of volunteers- Name of Waffen-SS Units

Albanian 3,000 -21st SS Division
Belgian: Flemish 23,000 -5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium: Walloon 15,000 -5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth (English) 50 -The British Freikorps
Bulgaria 1,000 in the Bulgarisches Reg.
Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims) 30,000 7th SS Div., 13th SS Hanshar Div.23rd SS Div.
Denmark 10,000 in Freikorps Danemark, 11th SS Div.
India3,500 in the Volunteer Legion
Estonia 20,000 in the 20th SS Div.
Finland 1,000 in a Volunteer Battalion.
Hungarians 15,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. 33rd SS Div.
Latvia 39,000 in the 15th SS Div., 19th SS Div.
Netherlands 50,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
Norway 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div.11th SS Div., .
France 8,000 33rd SS Div.
Italy 20,000
Poland/Ukraine 25,000 14th SS Div.
Russian (Belorussia) 12,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.
Russian (Cossack) 40,000 XV SS Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps
Russian (Turkic) 8,000 Ostürkische SS, Tatarishe SS
Rumania 3,000 Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (rumänisches 1)
Serbia 15,000 Volunteer Corps
Spain 1,000 Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101
Sweden, Switzerland & Luxemburg 3,000 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.


”We pledge to you, Adolf Hitler, loyalty and bravery. We swear obedience to you and the Superiors appointed by you, even unto death, as God is our witness." - SS Oath


http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss

[Holycrusader]

World War II started from the German-Russian invasion of Poland.

As far as I remember 1 september 1939 Germany invaded Poland. No Russian (WTF?) invasion onn Poland in that time...

[Jµµso]

It's not about the Winter War.
And everybody knows that Leningrad was impossible to defend with the Finnish border being so close. That's why the SU demanded some territory. "In exchange, the Soviet Union would cede two municipalities with twice the territory demanded from Finland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Finland rejected and the SU declared war.

So? I don't see that very good reason to start a war. Would Stalin been satisfied with that area? I doubt that..

This song proves that area wasn't enough for soviest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_29enGx6Rc

No longer can any fools or stupid scribblers
confuse your heart.
You have been deprived of your home country many times,
we came to return it to you.
You have been deprived of your home country many times,
we came to return it to you.

We come to help you destroy
and pay properly for the shame.
Welcome us, you beautiful Finland,
decorated by bright lakes.
Welcome us, you beautiful Finland,
decorated by bright lakes.

[tommy00]

As far as I remember 1 september 1939 Germany invaded Poland. No Russian (WTF?) invasion onn Poland in that time...

To bad, your memory is not good enough to remember events of later,...like 19 september...

[JRT]

Last time I checked there was no Russia in 1939. *confused*

German-Soviet then. Happy? Does twisting words make it more justified or help you forget the utter wrongness in Soviet actions that were part of WWII but prior to operation Barbarossa?

And the last time I checked there was Russian Soviet Federative State belonging to Soviet Union in 1939, so Russia did exist just as the state of Texas existed.

Hats off to all veterans regardless of side and nationality who did not commit warcrimes. Shame on those who did, regardless of side and nationality. Being a member of Waffen-SS most certainly doesn't mean that single individual was a criminal of any sort any more than being a member of the NKVD, Kampeitai, Royal Air Force or Manhattan project. It is the actions of the individual that determines his judicial position.

[Abyr]

Did I say it's only Russia? If you had read my post I was hoping that Russia shows us example how to deal with Nazi scum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ivdi0d3Pw
From 1:40 - there, now you can follow this example. :)

If they can go around bearing their symbols, even as tattoos etc, it's marching around.
Having a tattoo is a personal freedom and right, you can't "ban" them.

You are asking yourself that Latvia bans SS-veteran marches so why not do the same to neo-Nazis in your own country?
There is no SS marches in Russia. And it's not "my" country, however I am Russian.

Those idiots that act in Russia on behalf of neo-Nazism don't act privately, do they? There are quite a number of different organisations deemed as neo-Nazis, you should know it better.
As far as I know, if an organisation is labeled as "extremist", it is banned in Russia. See "National-bolshevik party" or "NBP" as an example.

[Holycrusader]

To bad, your memory is not good enough to remember events of later,...like 19 september...

FAIL ... Maybe you mean 17 september

[tommy00]

Yes because soviet army contributed with US and UK to free europe from nazism, If you don't see whats good and just in that, I guess that I have to conclude that you consider the other side was right?

Jee, wich countrys were then free, after a meeting with soviets.....Isn't Austria the only one..

[tommy00]

FAIL ... Maybe you mean 17 september

Aa, so you do remember something.....

[Holycrusader]

Aa, so you do remember something.....

Yes, thats why im able to educate some SS fans on this forum.

[Jippo]

As far as I remember 1 september 1939 Germany invaded Poland. No Russian (WTF?) invasion onn Poland in that time...

"From the beginning, the German government repeatedly asked Vyacheslav Molotov whether the Soviet Union would keep to its side of the partition bargain.[58][59] Soviet forces attacked Poland on 17 September. It was agreed that the USSR would relinquish its interest in the territories between the new border and Warsaw in exchange for inclusion of Lithuania in the Soviet "zone of interest"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

[merk666]

hitler invaded poland at 1 september, but ussr - 17 of september, when poland had disapperead as a suverenity. and ussr had returned the area till Curson line, russian empire territory, which was captured by Poland at 1920. during Civil War.
So this territory was "Polish" 18 years only.
this returning of historical lands could not be equal to german destruction of the core Poland.

[Jµµso]

As far as I remember 1 september 1939 Germany invaded Poland. No Russian (WTF?) invasion onn Poland in that time...

Maybe this helps you to remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdCwudcFRk

[Mango Madness]

The baby boom all around the world was due men coming home from the front and enjoying family life and humping like there's no tomorrow. It has nothing to do with ideologies.
You don't get it, I'm not talking about the specific post-WWII "baby boom" which happened all over Europe and America, I'm saying that the population of the SU liberated countries was "allowed" to go up at all, whereas during the Nazi's it went down, by the millions, in the space of a few years, and not just "naturally" but due to Nazi's killing these millions.

[Zeev]

Jee, wich countrys were then free, after a meeting with soviets.....Isn't Austria the only one..

Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between life under nazism and under a warsaw pact regime?? Indeed life in communist nations were not good, but it was still better that life under nazism!

But of course, I forgot that your from a nation that was a nazi pet, for sure they treated you right! be sure that 80% of the rest of europe didn't have such a chance, but thats the price to pay when you have enough dignity to don't sell your honour.

[Cabalabro]

So much fail @ history in this thread.. I doubt it is worth the effort to even try explaining the real situation back then..

About the parade. Oh for god sake wake up people! Did you see swastikas? People yelling zight heil? Or just a small group of people/veterans commemorating fallen soldiers in a fully peaceful and democratic manner?

@Zeev Would you be saying the same thing if Stalin would have completed his "doctors plot" in the 1953? I think not..

[Holycrusader]

Maybe this helps you to remember.


Do you suggest Russia attack Poland on 1 september 1939? Go and read some books instead spending time on youtube...

[JRT]

hitler invaded poland at 1 september, but ussr - 17 of september, when poland had disapperead as a suverenity. and ussr had returned the area till Curson line, russian empire territory, which was captured by Poland at 1920. during Civil War.
So this territory was "Polish" 18 years only.
this returning of historical lands could not be equal to german destruction of the core Poland.

Does the fact that Poland was xxx years old as a nation make it right? Or the fact that Germans went there first? If tomorrow China invaded Russia and Kazakhstan followed the next day would the Kazakhs be the good guys and their cause justified? After all, modern Russia is only 17 years old as a nation...

[Zeev]

@Zeev Would you be saying the same thing if Stalin would have completed his "doctors plot" in the 1953? I think not..

OKKKKK so because I hate nazism I cannot hate communism? you ppl are so narrow minded LOL

For obvious reasons I don't put them on the same level, communism was evil but not as much than nazism, no racial laws and all that sh*t, and most of communist crimes where located in russia, it is mostly a russian affair, but the nazis invaded the whole europe, invaded nations that didn't agressed them and slaughtered millions of europeans, mostly non jews! so yeah, nazism is definitely worse than communism.

Did the soviet made genocides in east europe after 1945? No. It was an hard occupation and dicature, but nothing that can be compared with nazism.

[Holycrusader]

Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between life under nazism and under a warsaw pact regime?? Indeed life in communist nations were not good, but it was still better that life under nazism!

But of course, I forgot that your from a nation that was a nazi pet, for sure they treated you right! be sure that 80% of the rest of europe didn't have such a chance, but thats the price to pay when you have enough dignity to don't sell your honour.

Good post Zeev... For some reason people here believe that living under nazis was cool thing.

[Mango Madness]

Maybe this helps you to remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdCwudcFRk
Soviets never participated in the Holocaust with Germany, so the worst thing about it is it was a land grab, which was the norm at the time, and best thing is it was a necessary "buffer zone" against Germany as Churchill said.

[Arbody]

hitler invaded poland at 1 september, but ussr - 17 of september, when poland had disapperead as a suverenity. and ussr had returned the area till Curson line, russian empire territory, which was captured by Poland at 1920. during Civil War.
So this territory was "Polish" 18 years only.
this returning of historical lands could not be equal to german destruction of the core Poland.
And let's don't forget that, this act saved hundrets thousands Jew's from Belarus and Ukraine

[JRT]

Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between life under nazism and under a warsaw pact regime?? Indeed life in communist nations were not good, but it was still better that life under nazism!


Well depends on the situation. I dare to say that life for an average French between 1940-1944 was propably better than life for an average Balt during the Soviet occupation of WWII. Life for an average Finn living in Lapland between 1941-1944 when there were german soldiers everywhere was quite ok. For sure the Jews and the Poles suffered more in the hands of Germans, that situation however did not apply to all German-occupied nations and nationalities.

[Holycrusader]

Does the fact that Poland was xxx years old as a nation make it right? Or the fact that Germans went there first? If tomorrow China invaded Russia and Kazakhstan followed the next day would the Kazakhs be the good guys and their cause justified? After all, modern Russia is only 17 years old as a nation...

Hmmm, you do not know much about Kazachstan...

[Cabalabro]

OKKKKK so because I hate nazism I cannot hate communism? you ppl are so narrow minded LOL

Do not advocate regime that was no better than nazism but helped defeating it and don't judge soldiers who fought against it. Especialy if those solgiers had little to do with holocaust or nazi war crimes.

[Jippo]

For some reason people here believe that living under nazis was cool thing.

Who exactly said so?

[JRT]

Soviets never participated in the Holocaust with Germany, so the worst thing about it is it was a land grab, which was the norm at the time, and best thing is it was a necessary "buffer zone" against Germany as Churchill said.

Tell that to the people killed, wounded and deported who were just "little collateral damage" in this little "land grab" of yours.

[Holycrusader]

Who exactly said so?

People that trying to put = mark, beetwen Nazi occupation and soviet rule in WP countries...

[JRT]

Hmmm, you do not know much about Kazachstan...

I hope you are more faking dumb than actually being one. Replace Kazakhstan with a nation of your choosing if you will. The point was in legitimacy, not in actual modern military capabilities.

[tommy00]

Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between life under nazism and under a warsaw pact regime?? Indeed life in communist nations were not good, but it was still better that life under nazism!
But of course, I forgot that your from a nation that was a nazi pet, for sure they treated you right! be sure that 80% of the rest of europe didn't have such a chance, but thats the price to pay when you have enough dignity to don't sell your honour.
Nope, i'm afraid you are the stupid one......comparing life under nazism(1940-45) and warsaw pact(1960-90). wartime and peacetime, different eras...
What way was a life of a common latvian better under Stalin regime, then under Hitler's one....
For a jew, it's clear, but this topic is not about jews and their fate,....no matter how eager the Soviet-fanboys are throwing words like....Holocaust and killing jews....

[Holycrusader]

I hope you are more faking dumb than actually being one. Replace Kazakhstan with a nation of your choosing if you will. The point was in legitimacy, not in actual modern military capabilities.

Its not about military capabilities but about what people from Kazachstan think on China...

[Jµµso]

Soviets joined to fight in september but how does that make them innocent...?

[Holycrusader]

Nope, i'm afraid you are the stupid one......comparing life under nazism(1940-45) and warsaw pact(1960-90). wartime and peacetime, different eras...
What way was a life of a common latvian better under Stalin regime, then under Hitler's one....
For a jew, it's clear, but this topic is not about jews and their fate,....no matter how eager the Soviet-fanboys are throwing words like....Holocaust and killing jews....

I thought those jews were common latvian too...

[tommy00]

OKKKKK so because I hate nazism I cannot hate communism? you ppl are so narrow minded LOL.

OKKKK, so becouse i hate communism, i must be love nazism.....You ppl are so narrow minded

[Zeev]

Do not advocate regime that was no better than nazism but helped defeating it and don't judge soldiers who fought against it. Especialy if those solgiers had little to do with holocaust or nazi war crimes.

Of course I will judge them, who are you to tell me what I have to judge or not? I spit on all of them, they worked for the nazi common ideology, they contributed to the same criminal enterprise, they are criminals and they knew very well about the racial theories of the nazi reich, and what would have been the result of the final goal, So yes I say it, SOVIET SIDE WAS WAY BETTER THAN THIS SCUM AND THEY WERE 100% right.

All I hope is that these old former SS pieces of sh*t will die very soon and that their soul will have no rest, they are an insult to humanity, even worms are more useful than them.

[Jippo]

People that trying to put = mark, beetwen Nazi occupation and soviet rule in WP countries...

So people who see Soviet regime as evil as the Nazi regime think living under Nazi rule would be "cool", as you say?

[tommy00]

hitler invaded poland at 1 september, but ussr - 17 of september, when poland had disapperead as a suverenity. and ussr had returned the area till Curson line, russian empire territory, which was captured by Poland at 1920. during Civil War.

I like that, what Hitler did was a invasion, what Soviets did was "returning the areas"....:)

[Ataman]

I dont know the history of the Latvian SS members, but if they didn't commit war crimes, there's no reason why they can't have their marches. I for one resect and honor my countrymen who volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS during WW2.

What a shame how the world has changed.
Nazism has obviously become a cool thing in Western/European countries that didn't experience it.

[merk666]

fact that ussr returned his shoes, which was stolen by poland 18 years ago. when poland was killed by hitler.
in molotov ribbentrop pact ussr claims that he is interested to return his stolen shoes...if something matters in future.
it s for justice.
when someone captures lands he must know, that someday it could be returned.
or no?

[my name again]

Of course I will judge them, who are you to tell me what I have to judge or not? I spit on all of them, they worked for the nazi common ideology, they contributed to the same criminal enterprise, they are criminals and they knew very well about the racial theories of the nazi reich, and what would have been the result of the final goal, So yes I say it, SOVIET SIDE WAS WAY BETTER THAN THIS SCUM AND THEY WERE 100% right.

All I hope is that these old former SS pieces of sh*t will die very soon and that their soul will have no rest, they are an insult to humanity, even worms are more useful than them.

x2

Good to see that intelligent people are still the majority of this Forum!

[Zeev]

Nope, i'm afraid you are the stupid one......comparing life under nazism(1940-45) and warsaw pact(1960-90). wartime and peacetime, different eras...
What way was a life of a common latvian better under Stalin regime, then under Hitler's one....
For a jew, it's clear, but this topic is not about jews and their fate,....no matter how eager the Soviet-fanboys are throwing words like....Holocaust and killing jews....

Life under stalin was hard for all ppls of SU, and especially for russians first.

Check how many ethnic russians were killed under stalin compared to baltic ppl, please just do.

[Jippo]

fact that ussr returned his shoes, which was stolen by poland 18 years ago. when poland was killed by hitler.
in molotov ribbentrop pact ussr claims that he is interested to return his stolen shoes...if something matters in future.
it s for justice.
when someone captures lands he must know, that someday it could be returned.
or no?

USSR stole Karelia, Russia is giving it back?

You are full of excuses. What did Finland steal? Or the Baltic countries? Why did USSR support Nazi regime?

[tommy00]

Life under stalin was hard for all ppls of SU, and especially for russians first.

Check how many ethnic russians were killed under stalin compared to baltic ppl, please just do.

Ee, and who is denying that...???

[Ataman]

Life under stalin was hard for all ppls of SU, and especially for russians first.

Check how many ethnic russians were killed under stalin compared to baltic ppl, please just do.

Do you think SS-supporters care about that? If yes they wouldn't be SS-supporters. p-)

[JRT]

Its not about military capabilities but about what people from Kazachstan think on China...

You still haven't answered the legitimacy question, which was the essence in my post, not the feelings of Germans, Poles or Russians towards each other. Last time I checked having negative feelings don't make it right to kill other people. Was it the right of Soviet Union to attack Poland? It certainly was handy and propably beneficial for the future confrontation with Germany but was it right in your opinion?

[Zeev]

OKKKK, so becouse i hate communism, i must be love nazism.....You ppl are so narrow minded

Yes you do. You find excuse to nazism. Nothing can excuse nazis and nazism ideology, NOTHING, not even the fight against communism. Communism was and still is a ****y and dictatural ideology, but at least, it don't classify humanity on 2 parts, the humans that deserve to live and the sub humans that are nothing but sh*t that must be cleaned from earth.

[Jippo]

Life under stalin was hard for all ppls of SU, and especially for russians first.

Check how many ethnic russians were killed under stalin compared to baltic ppl, please just do.

Holocaust is a pale shadow in comparison to what Stalin achieved, yet all you can say is "it was hard for ppl".

[Mango Madness]

I like that, what Hitler did was a invasion, what Soviets did was "returning the areas"....:)
Just as Poland "invaded" the Soviet Union 18 years earlier and captured these territories from it. If Hitler had merely captured Polish territory and not committed the Holocaust on Poles and murdered millions of civilians, then he would have been remembered differently, like Napoleon.

[tommy00]

when someone captures lands he must know, that someday it could be returned.
or no?

And didn't current Russia(after 1990) feeled that in all his glory,..didn't she....:)

[Ataman]

USSR stole Karelia, Russia is giving it back?

You are full of excuses. What did Finland steal? Or the Baltic countries? Why did USSR support Nazi regime?

"Stole"? I think there was a war and a treaty. Everything right.

[JRT]

fact that ussr returned his shoes, which was stolen by poland 18 years ago. when poland was killed by hitler.
in molotov ribbentrop pact ussr claims that he is interested to return his stolen shoes...if something matters in future.
it s for justice.
when someone captures lands he must know, that someday it could be returned.
or no?

So Poland stole Russian land? That is news for me. Perhaps Russia is kind enough to return the lands it stole between 1939 and 1940.

[JRT]

"Stole"? I think there was a war and a treaty. Everything right.

How did Russia steal any less than Poland did? I'd say it's the other way round.

[Jippo]

"Stole"? I think there was a war and a treaty. Everything right.

So you agree that there was no legal or moral base for Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939?

[Sousuke]

This thread is degrading.

I don't even wanna start, but i have to say this. Zeev - I agree 100% with you. The individual side of those units and men aside, their agenda was the same.

[Ataman]

So Poland stole Russian land? That is news for me. Perhaps Russia is kind enough to return the lands it stole between 1939 and 1940.

What lands? Then Poland should give back its land to Germany too?

[Mango Madness]

So Poland stole Russian land? That is news for me. Perhaps Russia is kind enough to return the lands it stole between 1939 and 1940.
Why the hell would Russia do that? Poland has to capture it from Russia, just as SU captured it from Poland, and Poland captured it from SU before that. At no point did either of them freely give away these territories.

[Zeev]

Ee, and who is denying that...???

so stop whining about stalin, everybody suffered from stalin, and anyway, stalin is not the subject here, subject here are nazis and ****in SS veterans.

Why do nazis lovers always point stalin and soviets when the subject is about nazis? Why are you always taking this same escape door, why do you want to escape anyway? Assume your nations glorious past! aren't you proud to have chosen the heroical nazi side against bolchevism?

[Arbody]

So you agree that there was no legal or moral base for Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939?
moral law was invented by losers get over it

[Ataman]

How did Russia steal any less than Poland did? I'd say it's the other way round.

I've never said that Poland "stole" something. They won the war and SU came back to win a new war. That's politics.


So you agree that there was no legal or moral base for Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939?

Never said that. SU reconquered the lost land. That was very common in the past.

[Switek]

OK I know that among other SS units Latvian and Estonian divisions were driven not by Nazi ideology but mainly by will to fight against soviet, Stalinist regime and weren't responsible for war crimes in a scale of other SS units. But so what? They were part f the most hatred Nazi war machine and being Latvian or Estonian I would be ashamed than proud of those"veterans". Sorry boys but you grandpas relieved other SS units on Eastern Front and made them time and space for commitment many disgusting war crimes and genocides. It's dangerous precedent for future of common Europe that some build their part of national heritage on SS war experiences. Shame on you!

[JRT]

What lands? Then Poland should give back its land to Germany too?

Pechenga, Salla and Karelia for starters. If you are saying Poland stole the land of Soviet Union after WW I and it was right and justified for the SU to take back those lands it must be right and justified for Finland to take back what the Soviet Union took in 1939-1940.

Strangely I remember there was a war and a treaty in WW I as well, and the borders of Soviet Union were defined there. How exactly did the Poles steal Russian land? Care to explain what justified Soviet attack to Poland in 1939?

[Ataman]

OK I know that among other SS units Latvian and Estonian divisions were driven not by Nazi ideology but mainly by will to fight against soviet, Stalinist regime and weren't responsible for war crimes in a scale of other SS units. But so what? They were part f the most hatred Nazi war machine and being Latvian or Estonian I would be ashamed than proud of those"veterans". Sorry boys but you grandpas relieved other SS units on Eastern Front and made them time and space for commitment many disgusting war crimes and genocides. It's dangerous precedent for future of common Europe that some build their part of national heritage on SS war experiences. Shame on you!

I can't believe I actually agree with you.

[Abyr]

Zeev, if I could, I would shake your hand and buy you a beer.

[Zeev]

Holocaust is a pale shadow in comparison to what Stalin achieved, yet all you can say is "it was hard for ppl".

Who said that I was refering to holocaust only?? I am not of the kind of many selective people in this thread! Nazis killed way more christian europeans than jews, not in death camps indeed, but in bombings, retaliation executions, massacres, etc only in SU, they've killed at least 15 millions ppl, I won't even mention Poland, Yugoslavia, France, Italy, etc... Every european should hate nazis for what they did in europe.

[lightfire]

Niiiceeee.. I see that baltic countries are very sane.. what an exemple of democracy, EU pride!!

One more thing that just confirms that these nations are still under strong fachist influence over their societies, bah, who wants to go there anyway? Dark skies and cold weather, nothing interesting, not even the ppl..

You seem to be as ignorant hater as one unfamiliar with situation can be. It's funny how you relate the whole issue with fascism and going there, seems like you have an agenda. What? Everybody who does not agree with you is a nazi?


Are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between life under nazism and under a warsaw pact regime?? .

It's not stupidity. Have you lived under both to claim this? Oh wait, you just put a similarity between nazism and Warsaw pact.. wtf? Lost in history perhaps? Where was Warsaw pact in 1939-1945?


Indeed life in communist nations were not good, but it was still better that life under nazism!

quit that apologetic BS, will ya? Life is better in one prison cell than in another - go try that yourself - have part of your family shot because it's jewish, another part - sent to Siberia, because it's intelectual, educated and does not agree with Soviet policy. Smell that "better" yourself, before making this nonsense.


But of course, I forgot that your from a nation that was a nazi pet, for sure they treated you right!

"They" (Nazis together with corroborators ) killed Estonian jews, your relatives perhaps, you asshat, how does that looks "right" in your dictionary? And who exactly are you to make generalisations, that " a nation" was a pet, whole nation collaborated or local Waffen SS unit was responsible for the Holocaust?


be sure that 80% of the rest of europe didn't have such a chance,

Check the Waffen SS units from nazi occupied countries before you make sure of anything.


OKKKKK so because I hate nazism I cannot hate communism?.

that's exactly what people are trying to say - they hate both nazism and comunism, but to be more precise - the regimes, that under these ideologies brought the siht you fail to compare.


you ppl are so narrow minded LOL

go check you broad mind and your posts with generalizations about nations


For obvious reasons I don't put them on the same level, communism was evil but not as much than nazism, no racial laws and all that sh*t, and most of communist crimes where located in russia, it is mostly a russian affair,

Is that what you were told in history class? Newsfalsh - Baltic states were not and are not Russian and was not a russian or soviet affair, they were independent countries before USSR occupied them.


but the nazis invaded the whole europe, invaded nations that didn't agressed them and slaughtered millions of europeans, mostly non jews! so yeah, nazism is definitely worse than communism.

mr numbers loving guy, I'll give yoy an example. If syrians and Egyptians invaded you (well they did, but that's theoretical example now) and syrians, say, killed 3000 jews, while egyptians 500 jews, would you say that egyptians are somehow better? If one rapes a woman, because she's black and other rapes, because she does not think his way - does it make rapist No.2 any better? Has USSR not invaded countries, that have not been a threat?



Did the soviet made genocides in east europe after 1945? No.

Soviets HAVE killed civilians. On purpose. Expelled them - on purpose. Yes, one lesser scale, than nazis, but you have no right to equal and justify the suffering of the minority to stress the suffering of the majority.


It was an hard occupation and dicature, but nothing that can be compared with nazism

what do YOU know what it was?


Good post Zeev... For some reason people here believe that living under nazis was cool thing.

Please DO quote ANYONE here, or in that march, who said it was cool. You imagine things - no one believes that living under nazis was cool thing, it's your sick interpretation you base your pathetic argument on.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

That view is echoed by 86-year-old Visvaldis Lacis, one of 140,000 Latvians who fought on the German side during the Second World War. Mr Lacis was drafted into the Waffen SS in 1943 and insists he was fighting for an independent Latvia. He points out that Latvians were prohibited from joining the regular German army and were only permitted to serve in Waffen SS "legions".

"The Germans and Russians invaded Latvia for centuries and incorporated us into our empires," he said. "We chose the lesser of two evils because during the German occupation, the Germans killed or deported 18,000 Latvians, whereas the Russians killed or deported 300,000. Were we not right to make such a choice?" he asked.


Apparently he doesn't consider Jews to have been real Latvians...

[Zeev]

Zeev, if I could, I would shake your hand and buy you a beer.

Leave me your card and maybe I'll visit you then ;)

[JRT]

Why the hell would Russia do that? Poland has to capture it from Russia, just as SU captured it from Poland, and Poland captured it from SU before that. At no point did either of them freely give away these territories.

Apparently you are believing it was the divine right of Soviet Union to take territory from others. Continuing this logic, all invasions are then legitimate, including the German invasion to USSR, US invasion to Iraq etc.

[Mango Madness]

Pechenga, Salla and Karelia for starters. If you are saying Poland stole the land of Soviet Union after WW II and it was right and justified for the SU to take back those lands it must be right and justified for Finland to take back what the Soviet Union took in 1939-1940.

Strangely I remember there was a war and a treaty in WW I as well, and the borders of Soviet Union were defined there. How exactly did the Poles steal Russian land? Care to explain what justified Soviet attack to Poland in 1939?
Newsflash - after WWII countries can no longer invade and make land grabs, that's why the UN was created. Upto that point it was the norm.

[Ataman]

Pechenga, Salla and Karelia for starters. If you are saying Poland stole the land of Soviet Union after WW II and it was right and justified for the SU to take back those lands it must be right and justified for Finland to take back what the Soviet Union took in 1939-1940.

Strangely I remember there was a war and a treaty in WW I as well, and the borders of Soviet Union were defined there. How exactly did the Poles steal Russian land? Care to explain what justified Soviet attack to Poland in 1939?

You guys must learn to read, not to interpret...
I really don't want to repeat it over and over again. It's like talking to a wall.

[Sousuke]

Jippo - i dont even know what to say.

Holocaust being a pale shadow. You make me sick.

While what Stalin did is a matter of fact, the choice of your words, and elaboration truly - makes me wanna punch you in the face.

Just my opinion.

[Jµµso]

Soviets never participated in the Holocaust with Germany, so the worst thing about it is it was a land grab, which was the norm at the time, and best thing is it was a necessary "buffer zone" against Germany as Churchill said.

It seems that in your imagination things like Katyn massacre never hapenned? OK.

[Mango Madness]

Apparently you are believing it was the divine right of Soviet Union to take territory from others. Continuing this logic, all invasions are then legitimate, including the German invasion to USSR, US invasion to Iraq etc.
Legitimate is not the word, invasions were "the norm". German invasion of the SU and other countries would have been part of this "norm" and not so disgusting if they had waged war like all previous wars had been waged in the past (military vs military, occupy country, leave civilians alone) and not killed millions of civilians and committed genocide.

[lightfire]

so stop whining about stalin, everybody suffered from stalin, and anyway, stalin is not the subject here, subject here are nazis and ****in SS veterans.

Why do nazis lovers always point stalin and soviets when the subject is about nazis? Why are you always taking this same escape door, why do you want to escape anyway? Assume your nations glorious past! aren't you proud to have chosen the heroical nazi side against bolchevism?

firstly, because the people you speak of are NOT nazi, SS or any other lovers - they chose a side they believed is a lesser evil at the time, since they have experienced what the other side means. And the "other side" means USSR mainly, not Western Allies. And secondly, Stalin and USSR is the key why those Waffen SS divisions were created in Latvia in the first place. Soviet and Nazi crimes for those, who had the taste of both are equal, only people like you, who have no idea what it was like can proudly talk of black and white. Yet again, I am not surprised - you make generalizations bluntly and dumb - "the Baltics equals Nazi" for you. Too bad.

[Zeev]

You seem to be as ignorant hater as one unfamiliar with situation can be. It's funny how you relate the whole issue with fascism and going there, seems like you have an agenda. What? Everybody who does not agree with you is a nazi?



It's not stupidity. Have you lived under both to claim this? Oh wait, you just put a similarity between nazism and Warsaw pact.. wtf? Lost in history perhaps? Where was Warsaw pact in 1939-1945?



quit that apologetic BS, will ya? Life is better in one prison cell than in another - go try that yourself - have part of your family shot because it's jewish, another part - sent to Siberia, because it's intelectual, educated and does not agree with Soviet policy. Smell that "better" yourself, before making this nonsense.


"They" (Nazis together with corroborators ) killed Estonian jews, your relatives perhaps, you asshat, how does that looks "right" in your dictionary? And who exactly are you to make generalisations, that " a nation" was a pet, whole nation collaborated or local Waffen SS unit was responsible for the Holocaust?

,

Check the Waffen SS units from nazi occupied countries before you make sure of anything.



that's exactly what people are trying to say - they hate both nazism and comunism, but to be more precise - the regimes, that under these ideologies brought the siht you fail to compare.



go check you broad mind and your posts with generalizations about nations



Is that what you were told in history class? Newsfalsh - Baltic states were not and are not Russian and was not a russian or soviet affair, they were independent countries before USSR occupied them.



mr numbers loving guy, I'll give yoy an example. If syrians and Egyptians invaded you (well they did, but that's theoretical example now) and syrians, say, killed 3000 jews, while egyptians 500 jews, would you say that egyptians are somehow better? If one rapes a woman, because she's black and other rapes, because she does not think his way - does it make rapist No.2 any better? Has USSR not invaded countries, that have not been a threat?




Soviets HAVE killed civilians. On purpose. Expelled them - on purpose. Yes, one lesser scale, than nazis, but you have no right to equal and justify the suffering of the minority to stress the suffering of the majority.


what do YOU know what it was?



Please DO quote ANYONE here, or in that march, who said it was cool. You imagine things - no one believes that living under nazis was cool thing, it's your sick interpretation you base your pathetic argument on.

Quote me when I tried to disrespect the memories of communism victims, I didn't. The problem is that as usual the defenders of nazi collaboration used the "soviet" escape door to justify the coward attitude and the unjustifiable choice of the main part of their populations during WW2, thats why now we are talking about fukin communism while the thread was about SS!!

[JRT]

Newsflash - after WWII countries can no longer invade and make land grabs, that's why the UN was created. Upto that point it was the norm.

Newsflash, google up a thing called the league of nations. Or the Treaty of Tartu. Or the Soviet-Finnish non-aggression pact of 1934. There were legal treaties signed by the Soviet Union that made it's aggressions illegal instead of a "norm".

[Jippo]

Newsflash - after WWII countries can no longer invade and make land grabs, that's why the UN was created. Upto that point it was the norm.

Newsflash:
"The League of Nations (LON) was an inter-governmental organization founded as a result of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919–1920, and the forerunner to the United Nations. At its greatest extent from 28 September 1934 to 23 February 1935, it had 58 members. The League's primary goals as stated in its Covenant included preventing war through collective security, disarmament, and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration.[1] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations

[my name again]

This thread is actually a good thing.Now everybody can see the true faces of some members here.

[merk666]

marching nazi in europe - the shame on europe.
thanks god - russia is not there :)

[Papenheims]

OK I know that among other SS units Latvian and Estonian divisions were driven not by Nazi ideology but mainly by will to fight against soviet, Stalinist regime and weren't responsible for war crimes in a scale of other SS units. But so what? They were part f the most hatred Nazi war machine and being Latvian or Estonian I would be ashamed than proud of those"veterans".

Its not about being proud of something - its about the right of the survivors to commemorate their fallen comrades.


Sorry boys but you grandpas relieved other SS units on Eastern Front and made them time and space for commitment many disgusting war crimes and genocides. It's dangerous precedent for future of common Europe that some build their part of national heritage on SS war experiences. Shame on you!
As if they had much choice since the majority of them were conscripts and didn't really want Soviet Union to reconquer the Baltics again. My grandpa and his brother was in SS while his other brother was earlier pressed in Soviet Union army.

[TakeIt]

They fought and survived? Interesting. Than why all who survived WW2 don't march and celebrate their survival? Or being part of the official force aimed at annihilating the impure is no longer a shame?


If you want to open this ****bucket, you also must ask what right celebrate do the Russian veterans of: 1939 Poland 1939 Finland 1939 Baltics Care to point at those celebrations and related festivities?


I'm ok for everyone celebrating for their own personal achievements, no problem. Interesting. So former prison guards, murderers and torturers celebrating their "achievemnts" is ok and no problem? Never thought i'd met such person as you.


NKVD in very much same light as Waffen SS, so if I am about to get offended about Waffen SS parade, I should also get offended by 9th May, shouldn't I? This comment is above even the deepest stupidity. 9 May is not an NKVD celebration.

[Jippo]

Jippo - i dont even know what to say.

Holocaust being a pale shadow. You make me sick.

While what Stalin did is a matter of fact, the choice of your words, and elaboration truly - makes me wanna punch you in the face.

Just my opinion.

I feel sorry for every soul, but looking at the numbers only far more people perished because of the Soviet Union than did in Holocaust which is mere single digit millions.

That should make you sick.

[lightfire]

Quote me when I tried to disrespect the memories of communism victims, I didn't. !!

your statements about who killed less are disrespect for the victims BOTH of soviet and nazi regimes.


The problem is that as usual the defenders of nazi collaboration used the "soviet" escape door to justify the coward attitude and the unjustifiable choice of the main part of their populations during WW2,

It's not the main problem, only for the likes like you. The people had to chose and they can be criticized for their choise, however, their actions speak better than their choice or rhetorics (Hitler salute example). So again - what ACTIONS do you see unjustifiable of Latvian Legion (since you'd like to speak about it rather than comunism etc)? Show the document, where Latvian Waffen SS is named a criminal organisation.

[Jippo]

Care to point at those celebrations and related festivities?

This comment is above even the deepest stupidity. 9 May is not an NKVD celebration.

So there are no, and mind you have never been, any veterans of NKVD or the previously mentioned campaigns taking part in the 9th may festivities?

[Zeev]

firstly, because the people you speak of are NOT nazi, SS or any other lovers - they chose a side they believed is a lesser evil at the time, since they have experienced what the other side means. And the "other side" means USSR mainly, not Western Allies. And secondly, Stalin and USSR is the key why those Waffen SS divisions were created in Latvia in the first place. Soviet and Nazi crimes for those, who had the taste of both are equal, only people like you, who have no idea what it was like can proudly talk of black and white. Yet again, I am not surprised - you make generalizations bluntly and dumb - "the Baltics equals Nazi" for you. Too bad.

Ok lets imagine that people during 1940 45 were ignorant about nazis (lol but lets imagine they were ignoring about nazis final goals)

Now in 2010, they had all the time to document themselves and realise their "mistake" but strangely, they don't seem to have any regrets, even the younger generations support or at least, excuse their past positions. Like we can see on this thread. Is it so hard to say, we were wrong, we were blinded by our desire of fighting communism but the nazi option was just wrong??

No, I've never read this, so kinda hard for me to believe that they don't have sympathy for this past. Usually, you don't try to justify something that you regret or condemn.

[Mango Madness]

Newsflash:
"The League of Nations (LON) was an inter-governmental organization founded as a result of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919–1920, and the forerunner to the United Nations. At its greatest extent from 28 September 1934 to 23 February 1935, it had 58 members. The League's primary goals as stated in its Covenant included preventing war through collective security, disarmament, and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration.[1] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations
Except nobody obeyed the League of Nations and we know how that worked out, only the horror of the Holocaust resolved the will of countries and the reason why the UN has been so successful in preventing land grabs by countries since WWII.

[Zeev]

your statements about who killed less are disrespect for the victims BOTH of soviet and nazi regimes.



It's not the main problem, only for the likes like you. The people had to chose and they can be criticized for their choise, however, their actions speak better than their choice or rhetorics (Hitler salute example). So again - what ACTIONS do you see unjustifiable of Latvian Legion (since you'd like to speak about it rather than comunism etc)? Show the document, where Latvian Waffen SS is named a criminal organisation.

All SS were criminals because they were promoting a criminal ideology, can you get that simple fact?? Are you trying to rehabilitate the SS?? Because you're taking the good way for.

[Jµµso]

This thread is actually a good thing.Now everybody can see the true faces of some members here.

So what do you think about Katyn massacre?

[Zeev]

This thread is actually a good thing.Now everybody can see the true faces of some members here.

Done since very long. Don't worry about this.

[JRT]

Except nobody obeyed the League of Nations and we know how that worked out, only the horror of the Holocaust resolved the will of countries and the reason why the UN has been so successful in preventing land grabs by countries since WWII.

Nobody obeyed the League of Nations after a member state called the USSR invaded illegally other member states and was expelled from it. That does not make the actions of Soviet Union any more legitimate or justified.

[my name again]

So what do you think about Katyn massacre?

So what do you think about the Holocaust?

[Switek]

Its not about being proud of something - its about the right of the survivors to commemorate their fallen comrades. .

So let them gathering in graveyards not making parades in the center of capital and other cities.


As if they had much choice since the majority of them were conscripts and didn't really want Soviet Union to reconquer the Baltics again. My grandpa and his brother was in SS while his other brother was earlier pressed in Soviet Union army. So your grandpa and his brother were a part of the organization which murdered some members of my family...

[JRT]

All SS were criminals because they were promoting a criminal ideology, can you get that simple fact?? Are you trying to rehabilitate the SS?? Because you're taking the good way for.

Crap. Some members of the Waffen-SS weren't promoting ****, but were forced to wear the uniform and were sent to combat. Did you know there were for example Danes who were taken into service by gunpoint?

FYI, I'm not for a second denying the atrocities of German forces, or many of the SS-units or even foreign soldiers in SS-units. That still does not make every individual in that uniform criminals. By your criteria the entire Royal Air Force members were criminals because they bombed the hell out of civilians in Dresden.

[lightfire]

Ok lets imagine that people during 1940 45 were ignorant about nazis (lol but lets imagine they were ignoring about nazis final goals)n.

how the hell could village boys from Latvia know about Nazi Germany final goals?


Now in 2010, they had all the time to document themselves and realise their "mistake" but

woa, stop right there - what document exactly? Concerning the Latvian legion, please...?


strangely, they don't seem to have any regrets, even the younger generations support their past positions. Like we can see on this thread. Is it so hard to say, we were wrong, we were blinded by our desire of fighting communism but the nazi option was just wrong.

Well, I am no latvian so I won't answer for them whether to fight communism was just wrong.

From my point of view, it was wrong (to join the Nazi side directly) and my countrymen proved that by not creating Waffen SS division, even though suffered from the Soviet rule (and I am speaking not about glastnost period here, but about short period of 1940 summer -1941 summer) equally enough. But then again, what exactly did Latvian legion do to be put in the line of Holocaust preparation?


No, I've never read this, so kinda hard for me to believe that they don't have sympathy for this past. Usually, you don't try to justify something that you regret or condemn


I don't suppose you read latvian, do you?

[TakeIt]

So there are no, and mind you have never been, any veterans of NKVD or the previously mentioned campaigns taking part in the 9th may festivities? Do not try to exchange the subject. You equated NKVD to SS and latvian filth to 9 May. Are you still oblivilious to the obvious fact of fallacy you're trying to defend?

[Ataman]

Nobody obeyed the League of Nations after a member state called the USSR invaded illegally other member states and was expelled from it. That does not make the actions of Soviet Union any more legitimate or justified.

Italy, Japan etc. invaded other states many years before and demonstrated the weakness of the League of Nations.

[Jµµso]

So what do you think about the Holocaust?

I think it happenned i'm not denying anything what nazis did.

But i will ask again: What do you think about Katyn massacre?

[Sumadinac]

Yes you do. You find excuse to nazism. Nothing can excuse nazis and nazism ideology, NOTHING, not even the fight against communism. Communism was and still is a ****y and dictatural ideology, but at least, it don't classify humanity on 2 parts, the humans that deserve to live and the sub humans that are nothing but sh*t that must be cleaned from earth.

Totally right. Communism can't be compared with a racist ideology that promotes the superiority of one race over the others.

[lightfire]

All SS were criminals because they were promoting a criminal ideology, can you get that simple fact?? Are you trying to rehabilitate the SS?? Because you're taking the good way for.

You are wrong about the part with SS, since we are talking about Latvion legion here - two Waffen SS divissions. Again - who recognized them criminal? If it is a fact, it will not be hard to show me who stated this fact, now will it? And you are wrong about me trying to rehabilitate SS.

[Zeev]

I don't suppose you read latvian, do you?

They are able to defend undefendable choices in english right? so I guess that they can do the same in the other way. But they won't because they are obviously proud of the past choices.

[Jippo]

TakeIt, you have lost the point I was trying to make so long ago. If you want to learn it read my posts, I will not go through it again.

[Zeev]

Some people did not like the prospect of their people beeing killed and enslaved by the Soviet Union. They decided to fight back instead of submitting to their faith (like the Jews!?), and the only people that would help them in the fight were the Nazis. Ok?

Please explain about the "like the jews".

[JRT]

Italy, Japan etc. invaded other states many years before and demonstrated the weakness of the League of Nations.

And yet the weakness of the said organization did not make the treaties signed by the Soviet Union null and void. Your excuses stink. Just because the Brits, French and the Americans didn't attack Soviet Union with force does not make it's actions right or legitimate.

[lightfire]

So let them gathering in graveyards not making parades in the center of capital and other cities.

Switek, do you know what was in that parade to symbolize, show or glorify in any other way the Nazism? People marched with Latvian flags - you can't ban that, now can you?


So your grandpa and his brother were a part of the organization which murdered some members of my family...


Not to show disrespect, but what about wermacht? Soviet army? Yet graves of those soldiers are respected, flowers are being brought and no fuss made because of it by your countrymen as well.

[Zeev]

Crap. Some members of the Waffen-SS weren't promoting ****, but were forced to wear the uniform and were sent to combat. Did you know there were for example Danes who were taken into service by gunpoint?

FYI, I'm not for a second denying the atrocities of German forces, or many of the SS-units or even foreign soldiers in SS-units. That still does not make every individual in that uniform criminals. By your criteria the entire Royal Air Force members were criminals because they bombed the hell out of civilians in Dresden.

If it wasn't 100% of SS it was 90%?

Definitely a big difference.

[lightfire]

They are able to defend undefendable choices in english right? so I guess that they can do the same in the other way. But they won't because they are obviously proud of the past choices.

so where are these facts and documents about Latvian legion, you wanted to stress so hardly?

[Papenheims]

So your grandpa and his brother were a part of the organization which murdered some members of my family...
Had their unit had different name like "Lettische Wehrmacht Division" and part of other German army organisation instead of "15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS" or "19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS'' (both were Latvian divisions after general conscription was enacted) would you feel different or better?

[Ataman]

And yet the weakness of the said organization did not make the treaties signed by the Soviet Union null and void. Your excuses stink. Just because the Brits, French and the Americans didn't attack Soviet Union with force does not make it's actions right or legitimate.

I'm not making any excuses. You said that it was the SU's fault that nobody obeyed the League of Nations which is false since there have been many wars before 1939. Again, stop interpreting.

[cwjian]

Please explain about the "like the jews".

I think he meant that the Latvians tried to fight back instead of accepting their FATE (not faith), unlike the Jews, though he obviously never has heard of the Warsaw ghetto rebellion.

Also, the "heil Hitler" salute does say something, doesn't it?

[pocoloco]

Hah, this thread is a really retarded pissing contest. Everybody trying to piss onto others while having so much sh1t in their pants. You bunch make me feel nauseatic.

Nazism equals sh1t.

Communisn equals sh1t.

Killing people because of their race, religion or political beliefs equals sh1t unless these people attack you first and thus give reason to defend yourself, your loved ones and your home.

Invading, occupying, liberating and then occupying other nations against their _people's_ will equals sh1t.

If I don't harm you, stay in your corner and wet your pants, see if I care a sh1t. If you are dumb enough to support any form of extreme -isms, and there's sh1tload of them, better dig a deep hole and cover there, world doesn't need your sh1t nor do I.

You lot need to get your facts together before start acting demigods with ultimate knowledge and wisdom... asswipes the whole lot! Thank God I know the truth :D

/THREAD

[Sousuke]

I feel sorry for every soul, but looking at the numbers only far more people perished because of the Soviet Union than did in Holocaust which is mere single digit millions.

That should make you sick.
And that justifies the holocaust how?

[TakeIt]

TakeIt, you have lost the point I was trying to make so long ago. If you want to learn it read my posts, I will not go through it again. I take it you're unable to defend former SS men further. Good.

[Zeev]

so where are these facts and documents about Latvian legion, you wanted to stress so hardly?

LOL so its to me to provide evidences? The nazi collaboration speaks by itself, is there something more to say about this?? Do you know by any chance some kind of collaboration with the nazis that could be justified? I'm very curious about this :)

It's no secret that baltic SS and police slaughtered thousands and thousands of jews, so I consider that anybody that still promote this period and the choice of nazi collaboration now in 2010 don't give a **** about these crimes and have obviously sympathy for nazism and collaboration with nazis.

[Jippo]

Hah, this thread is a really retarded pissing contest. Everybody trying to piss onto others while having so much sh1t in their pants. You bunch make me feel nauseatic.

Nazism equals sh1t.

Communisn equals sh1t.

Killing people because of their race, religion or political beliefs equals sh1t unless these people attack you first and thus give reason to defend yourself, your loved ones and your home.

Invading, occupying, liberating and then occupying other nations against their _people's_ will equals sh1t.

If I don't harm you, stay in your corner and wet your pants, see if I care a sh1t. If you are dumb enough to support any form of extreme -isms, and there's sh1tload of them, better dig a deep hole and cover there, world doesn't need your sh1t nor do I.

You lot need to get your facts together before start acting demigods with ultimate knowledge and wisdom... asswipes the whole lot! Thank God I know the truth :D

/THREAD

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

[JRT]

If it wasn't 100% of SS it was 90%?

Definitely a big difference.

It certainly wasn't 100%. I have no idea how many soldiers or even units of the SS committed warcrimes. Many certainly did, and certainly there were many individuals that didn't. For some reason you are implying all individuals who wore the uniform of Waffen-SS were criminals too, disregarding the fact that some were forced in to service and some were simply fighting for their country because there weren't alternatives.

Don't be drawn to the conclusion that I have a special love for those murdering bastards who killed Jews, Poles, Russian civilians or whatever. The Wehrmacht burned my home town to ashes in WWII, there were only a handful of buildings left standing. The rubble was mined and civilians suffered from that years later. It doesn't make every German soldier evil psycho's however.

Big difference.

[Jippo]

And that justifies the holocaust how?

It doesn't, now does it?

[JRT]

LOL so its to me to provide evidences? The nazi collaboration speaks by itself, is there something more to say about this?? Do you know by any chance some kind of collaboration with the nazis that could be justified? I'm very curious about this :)


The nation of Finland and it's citizens survived only through German military and agricultural help because no-one else was willing or capable of doing that. I'd say that is pretty damn justified.

You are a prime example of lack of information of the politics and situation of the smaller northern European nations in the late 30's/early 40's.

[Switek]

Switek, do you know what was in that parade to symbolize, show or glorify in any other way the Nazism? People marched with Latvian flags - you can't ban that, now can you? In this particular case we come to the point called relativism... I =f Latvians want their flag would be associated with SS heritage, there they go...



Not to show disrespect, but what about wermacht? Soviet army? Yet graves of those soldiers are respected, flowers are being brought and no fuss made because of it by your countrymen as well.

Thousands of Poles served forcibly in Wehrmacht. No one is insane here to make such parades and attach artificial ideology they were a part of anti Bolshevik war machine.

[Zeev]

Submitting to their fate, walking in to those gas chambers instead of fighting for their lifes.

So finally they deserved to die, If you don't fight, you don't deserve to live.

Who are you to judge people that were gassed? what do you know about the jews capacity to submit to their fate or not during these times?

It is probably the most stupid comment I ever read on MP go educate yourself if your parents didn't do it, or at least, just try to think before opening your dirty mouth, if thinking is on the list of your capacities for sure.

[Papenheims]

It's no secret that baltic SS and police slaughtered thousands and thousands of jews, so I consider that anybody that still promote this period and the choice of nazi collaboration now in 2010 don't give a **** about these crimes and have obviously sympathy for nazism and collaboration with nazis.

Baltic SS Legions didn't take part in holocaust because it happened (against Baltic Jews) before those legions were formed. Undeniably there were Latvian police battalion units who took part in holocaust but they weren't part of legion since it didn't exist at that time. Some parts of those police battalions were latter conscripted in Legion when general conscription of all men of certain age group was enacted in Latvia by Germany.

[OrangeWolf]

Some people did not like the prospect of their people beeing killed and enslaved by the Soviet Union. They decided to fight back instead of submitting to their fate (like the Jews!?), and the only people that would help them in the fight were the Nazis. Ok?

Are you completely or only partially insane? Jews were not always in the position to take up arms. But tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews were part of the Allies who liberated my homeland and many other countries from the Nazis. I thank every Jew for their sacrifice and resistance, and also every Christian every Muslim etc. The ones I do not thank for anything are the volunteers and the collaborators: that old man who made a salute for his criminal friends who were thank goodness killed by the Red Army, that negationist who didn't include the number of Jews who were killed by the Nazis as Latvians: they can rot in hell one by one. Oh btw resist the Soviets/Nazis doesn't mean killing your local Jews, some Latvians may have misunderstood...

Never heard of the Warshaw Ghetto uprising and all the other uprisings? You tell them they didn't resist. You tell the Jewish Brigade they didn't fight! Jews in the Netherlands were part of the resistance. I thank them, just like I thank those who took up arms against any Waffen-SS member!

[tommy00]

It's sad how people see the world in black and white. Their own side as the ultimate good and the other side as the ultimate evil.

Over and end....

[Switek]

Had their unit had different name like "Lettische Wehrmacht Division" and part of other German army organisation instead of "15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS" or "19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS'' (both were Latvian divisions after general conscription was enacted) would you feel different or better?
You should ask not me but those who were murdered if it'd make any difference for them. They murderers had the same uniforms.

[Zeev]

The nation of Finland and it's citizens survived only through German military and agricultural help because no-one else was willing or capable of doing that. I'd say that is pretty damn justified.

Who the **** is talking about finland here? Why are you refering to finland? This is not the subject of the thread and finland were never occupied by the nazi reich. Stay on topic please.

[Holycrusader]

Fact that Stalin was bad guy and NKVD commit crimes do not make Hitler and SS any better. Thats the true...
So why some people discuss Stalinism crimes in a thread about Latvian SS march? Thats offtopic...

[Jippo]

Who the **** is talking about finland here? Why are you refering to finland? This is not the subject of the thread and finland were never occupied by the nazi reich. Stay on topic please.

You yourself asked for any collaboration that could have been justified, and you got it. And still complaining. :)

[Sousuke]

It doesn't, now does it?
Then whats the point of this piss contest, and mentioning Stalin and the Soviets anyway? The nazis burned and plundered, had some pretty interesting ideas about who deserves to live or die, and some pretty "neat" ways of completing their objective. The SS more then deserves their reputation, no matter which branch are we talking about. I don't say that all of them were criminals and murderers, but history speaks for itself.The organization as a whole - their brutality and twisted morals and ideals, lets just say i would choose the Soviet side over them any day.

Just as said above - let them have their memorials in graveyards or in private property. But not in the center of the town, making parades. Being an ex SS. is not something to be proud of.

[Zeev]

Baltic SS Legions didn't take part in holocaust because it happened (against Baltic Jews) before those legions were formed. Undeniably there were Latvian police battalion units who took part in holocaust but they weren't part of legion since it didn't exist at that time. Some parts of those police battalions were latter conscripted in Legion when general conscription of all men of certain age group was enacted in Latvia by Germany.

Ok so please just tell it to me. Baltic SS existance was justifiable right? From what you're saying, they were ok, nothing special about them?

[OrangeWolf]

Btw, Polish police were also consripted and forced to do their "job", although they were more of a burden to the Nazis at times. And you don't see any of them acting like elderly poster boys for the Nazis during memorials!

[Holycrusader]

Who the **** is talking about finland here? Why are you refering to finland? This is not the subject of the thread and finland were never occupied by the nazi reich. Stay on topic please.

Finland citizens must suffer because of the lack of the world attention. Do not wory dear Finns if the world do not talk about you its is most times a good news :)

[Zeev]

You yourself asked for any collaboration that could have been justified, and you got it. And still complaining. :)

You guys like to play with words right? on this level, spain had also relations with nazis right? as sweden, as swiss, but this is not the subject as I can remember? aren't we are talking about occupied europe, especially the baltic area here? We are. So don't ridiculise yourself by playing the smarta$$. No one here is blind.

[Ataman]

Please, close this thread now. Everything has been said already.

[Jippo]

Then whats the point of this piss contest, and mentioning Stalin and the Soviets anyway?
...
Just as said above - let them have their memorials in graveyards or in private property. But not in the center of the town, making parades. Being an ex SS. is not something to be proud of.

Read your two lines here and refer to my original comments in the first pages. It is my fault, I started it all when I thought an example from "the other side" would make people think. I was wrong.

[Zeev]

Finland citizens must suffer because of the lack of the world attention. Do not wory dear Finns if the world do not talk about you its is most times a good news :)

an other fascinating nation I forgot! fiskars.. nokia.. bah, even nokia is not anymore what it used to be, I've drop mine for a blackberry.. :)

[Bachelor]

Hallo from Hell....

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2430/2333434.jpg

[JRT]

I thank them, just like I thank those who took up arms against any Waffen-SS member!

Are you aware that there were also Jews fighting at the same side as Waffen-SS members? Finnish Jews were equally fighting in the Eastern Front, and as a return for military and agricultural aid Germany demanded that Finland sends a battallon-sized force to be incorporated into Waffen-SS. That battalion fought with distinction in the Eastern Front and was not responsible for the mass murders of civilians. Should they have shot each other when the battalion was disbanded back to Finland in 1943 and the former SS-Nordland soldiers joined the ranks of the regular Finnish Army.

Did you also know that there was a fully German Waffen-SS division in Finland that actually fought with the Soviets and didn't go around hunting and killing civilians. Things aren't that black and white.

[Zeev]

are you aware that there were also jews fighting at the same side as waffen-ss members? Finnish jews were equally fighting in the eastern front, and as a return for military and agricultural aid germany demanded that finland sends a battallon-sized force to be incorporated into waffen-ss. That battalion fought with distinction in the eastern front and was not responsible for the mass murders of civilians. Should they have shot each other when the battalion was disbanded back to finland in 1943 and the former ss-nordland soldiers joined the ranks of the regular finnish army.

Did you also know that there was a fully german waffen-ss division in finland that actually fought with the soviets and didn't go around hunting and killing civilians. Things aren't that black and white.

who

the

fvck

cares

about

finland

stay

on

topic

thnx.

[tommy00]

an other fascinating nation I forgot! fiskars.. nokia.. bah, even nokia is not anymore what it used to be, I've drop mine for a blackberry.. :)

You'r not refugee from Russia in Israel, aren't you...???
The amount of šovinism in your posts sort a shows it....

[JRT]

Who the **** is talking about finland here? Why are you refering to finland? This is not the subject of the thread and finland were never occupied by the nazi reich. Stay on topic please.

You asked for it, you got it. It may come as news to you but there were people in the Waffen-SS that had nothing to do with murdering of civilians and people in the Waffen-SS that came from several different nations, including occupied, neutral and axis nations as well as allied nations. You were the one saying all members of both the SS and the Waffen-SS were murdering criminals without the knowledge of the difference of those two and without the knowledge of how many people got themselves in the position were they were handed out the Waffen-SS uniform. From an Israeli point of view I can understand why it is so easy to generalize them all murderers, that however does not make it a historical fact.

[Mango Madness]

You'r not refugee from Russia in Israel, aren't you...???
The amount of šovinism in your posts sort a shows it....
You're not estonian are you? Oh wait...

[OrangeWolf]

You'r not refugee from Russia in Israel, aren't you...???
The amount of šovinism in your posts sort a shows it....

Is that some new sort of argument? Asking someone if they are Russian?

[Papenheims]

Ok so please just tell it to me. Baltic SS existance was justifiable right? From what you're saying, they were ok, nothing special about them?

What to justify there? You got conscripted - sent to front to fight against Soviet Union and you fight trying to survive. Just because some army official named your unit - "SS" - you are suddenly a war criminal, because the Soviet Union won the war ........

[JRT]

who

the

fvck

cares

about

finland

stay

on

topic

thnx.

Then stop babbling that all members of the Waffen-SS, including these Latvian veterans were criminals because you have been proven wrong on several occasions. And that is well on topic.

[lightfire]

LOL so its to me to provide evidences?.

yes, because you've made particular statements, calling them nazis, nazi loving and Holocaust committing bunch. So where are the evidences, that Latvian Legion did what you've said?


The nazi collaboration speaks by itself,

say what? Vishi France collaborated with Nazis, does that make Vishi Nazi responsible for Hollocaust?


is there something more to say about this??

yea, one thing - you make empty statements and do not base them, hence your agenda is flawed.


Do you know by any chance some kind of collaboration with the nazis that could be justified? I'm very curious about this :)

Finland collaborated with nazis - does that mean fins can't remember the Continuation war?


It's no secret that baltic SS and police slaughtered thousands and thousands of jews

woa woa woa, Mr. Secrect - you make one distinction once and for all - Waffen SS and police battalions are two different things. What police battalions did and what Latvian legion did - there is a fvcking difference.


, so I consider that anybody that still promote this period and the choice of nazi collaboration now in 2010 don't give a **** about these crimes and have obviously sympathy for nazism and collaboration with nazis

consider again, since you are doing this wrong. They do not promote the period itself, they do not glorify nazism, they simply pay respects for those soldiers, who fought and died in Latvian legion. For once - could just read SOMETHING about Latvian legion before mixing it with SS fvks like Himler, Mengele etc?

[Zeev]

Most of the people that walked in to the "showers" propably didn't know that was the last thing they were going to do in their lives.

So why are you bitchin about that while you say yourself that they couldn't know? Would you have been smarter than them??


how could the Latvians have known?

There was no need to be aware of the final solution to see the horror and the evil of the nazi ideology, without the final solution, all the previous racial laws, persecutions and summary executions and deportations were already unbearable and unjustifiable.


There were Jewish colaborators too.. I know I will rather die fighing than be executed.

Do yourself a favor, just STFU. Sincerely.

[Mango Madness]

You asked for it, you got it. It may come as news to you but there were people in the Waffen-SS that had nothing to do with murdering of civilians and people in the Waffen-SS that came from several different nations, including occupied, neutral and axis nations as well as allied nations. You were the one saying all members of both the SS and the Waffen-SS were murdering criminals without the knowledge of the difference of those two and without the knowledge of how many people got themselves in the position were they were handed out the Waffen-SS uniform. From an Israeli point of view I can understand why it is so easy to generalize them all murderers, that however does not make it a historical fact.
Who the fvck cares if some of them didn't murder civilians - not all Nazi Germany Wermarht murdered civilians too. The point is some did and in the German SS, Latvian SS, and all the other twisted collaborator organisations murdering civilians and genocide was state-sanctioned.

[Sousuke]

Read your two lines here and refer to my original comments in the first pages. It is my fault, I started it all when I thought an example from "the other side" would make people think. I was wrong.
One cannot mix the Soviet victory parade with this abomination. The Soviets celebrate freeing themselves from Nazi occupation, beating that regime, and they surely have a lot to be proud off. Millions of Soviet soldiers died for that cause, for a just cause - and no matter what Stalin did after that, or before it can change that fact. If it were not for them, i am sure that we would still be living under a Nazi banner.

If that's not a good enough reason, then i don't know what it is. These two events are beyond compression.

[tommy00]

Is that some new sort of argument? Asking someone if they are Russian?

Was simply curious....

[Zeev]

Then stop babbling that all members of the Waffen-SS, including these Latvian veterans were criminals because you have been proven wrong on several occasions. And that is well on topic.

So its okay to promote some SS so? including baltic SS? on which level you can make a difference between the good SS and the bad SS? under how many civilians murders you can be a good SS?

[Pilot_35]

what to justify there? You got conscripted - sent to front to fight against soviet union and you fight trying to survive. Just because some army official named your unit - "ss" - you are suddenly a war criminal, because the soviet union won the war ........

omg!!!...............

[lightfire]

Who the fvck cares if some of them didn't murder civilians - not all Nazi Germany Wermarht killed civilians too. The point is some did and it was state-sanctioned.

just like soviets - how come would you defend them then?

There is a difference - if you did not murdered any civilians or did not commit any war crimes for that matter, you ain't no war criminal. Guess what - Latvian legion ain't - got any document to prove me wrong?

[Switek]

Anyone who in certain degree justifies SS and its commitment in combat against Soviets in the same time justifies all crimes and genocides done by Nazi war machine. and what worse in the same time makes Red Army and NKVD crimes justifiable.

[Jippo]

Who the fvck cares if some of them didn't murder civilians - not all Nazi Germany Wermarht murdered civilians too. The point is some did and it was state-sanctioned.

Soviet troops did the same in GPW, and we do not want to label all and everyone of them a war criminal. Why would we want to do that with Latvians?

[Aor]

One cannot mix the Soviet victory parade with this abomination. The Soviets celebrate freeing themselves from Nazi occupation, beating that regime, and they surely have a lot to be proud off. Millions of Soviet soldiers died for that cause, for a just cause - and no matter what Stalin did after that, or before it can change that fact. If it were not for them, i am sure that we would still be living under a Nazi banner.

If that's not a good enough reason, then i don't know what it is. These two events are beyond compression.

+ 1

I am very concerned with the rise of Nazi sympathizers across the continent myself. Take a look at what is happening in east Germany and in the Italian north. Nazi salutes and political parties legit or not are rising in power.

I don't care what the Soviets did to the Latvians. The Nazis were criminal genocidal monsters. They should never forget that.

[Ataman]

Anyone who in certain degree justifies SS and its commitment in combat against Soviets in the same time justifies all crimes and genocides done by Nazi war machine. and what worse in the same time makes Red Army and NKVD crimes justifiable.

Why "worse"?

[Drax]

An average poster in this thread:


So you not like Soviets killed your people same way nazis did? So you - a nazi!!111one
Nazis attacked Europe and killed everyone! So Soviets saved your people by invading first and killing people first, so that they wouldn't suffer under nazis! It was a norm back then! Nazis come and rape your females because they murderers! Soviet soldiers just horny! Nazis took your bread because they robbers! Soviet soldiers just hungry!QFT!
Excellent English. Excellent display of historical knowledge. Adorable respect for your neighbours.

[JRT]

So its okay to promote some SS so? including baltic SS? on which level you can make a difference between the good SS and the bad SS? under how many civilians murders you can be a good SS?

When that number is zero. I do not approve a single murder of civilians, regardless of nationality. I bet there are murders in Israel too. Are all Israeli murderers? On which level can you make a difference between the good Israeli and the bad Israeli? Of course the numbers of those committing these acts are on a wildly different level but I want to show you that just because you have the same colour of clothes or the same nationality of a criminal does not make you criminal. Your individual actions are the only thing that does.

... and yes, there are murderers in every country. I guess all humanity is a murdering bunch of people.

[Zeev]

Anyone who in certain degree justifies SS and its commitment in combat against Soviets in the same time justifies all crimes and genocides done by Nazi war machine. and what worse in the same time makes Red Army and NKVD crimes justifiable.

I agree switek!!! The problem is that, as you can read, a lot of people try to justify and promote SS existence while on the opposite side, no one here try to promote what Stalin and NKVD did! supporting the actions of red army do not mean supporting stalin and NKVD, but unfortunately, some ppl here are dumb enough (or fachist enough) to put red army and SS on the same level.

[Zeev]

When that number is zero. I do not approve a single murder of civilians, regardless of nationality. I bet there are murders in Israel too. Are all Israeli murderers? On which level can you make a difference between the good Israel and the bad Israeli? Of course the numbers of those committing these acts are on a wildly different level but I want to show you that just because you have the same colour of clothes or the same nationality of a criminal does not make you criminal. Your individual actions are the only thing that does.

You are getting very borderline.

[Sousuke]

When that number is zero. I do not approve a single murder of civilians, regardless of nationality. I bet there are murders in Israel too. Are all Israeli murderers? On which level can you make a difference between the good Israeli and the bad Israeli? Of course the numbers of those committing these acts are on a wildly different level but I want to show you that just because you have the same colour of clothes or the same nationality of a criminal does not make you criminal. Your individual actions are the only thing that does.

... and yes, there are murderers in every country. I guess all humanity is a murdering bunch of people.

So...if i join a terrorist organization, but I'm a good man and all of that, justifies the fact that the organization, witch i am a part of, just blew up a building and killed a lot of civilians?

Ya, right.

[Afro-European]

Why do nazis lovers always point stalin and USSR when the subject is about nazis? Why are you always taking this same escape door?
Too bad Stalin did finish these Nazi *** off.

[Mango Madness]

Question for Nazi apologists - if they all hate the Nazi's, then why did the SS veteran in the video do a Hitler salute at 1:17, and if they hate the Nazi's so much as you claim, why did nobody around him get offended when he did the salute?