Canada gets the Sikorsky S-92

[FRO]

I just heard on the CBC that the Canadian military will be getting the Sikorsky S-92. The official announcement is supposed to be at 9:30 today at Shearwater. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the S-92 fail to meet certain initial requirements, and since the EH-101 was the only aircraft to meet all the requirements, the requirements were changed in order to "foster competition?" Does that make sense to anyone?

Also, we already have EH-101 Cormorants as our SAR birds. We have a very small airforce, so wouldn't it make more economic sense to purchase more EH-101s, since we already have expertise available in house in regards to this aircraft?

Finally, we will be the first military in the world to purchase the S-92. Great. Guinea Pigs. And if the S-92 proves to be a disaster? At least with the EH-101, we would have a tried and tested aircraft, one which we already operate and one which a large number of our allies also operate. What kind of value does the S-92 bring to the table? It didn't meet the initial requirements, so those requirements had to be lowered and it has no track record, no one--let alone any of our allies--uses the military version of this aircraft.


I fail to be impressed. I think, once again, the Liberals have fumbled the ball where the military is concerned.

[Siddar]

I think the message is we dont think anyone could posably do worse then EH-101.

[Pille1234]

I couldn't imagine Canada to buy the EH101 due to politcal reasons anyway. First leave the project and pay millions for cancellation fees and a few years later however buy the chopper?

[FRO]

Siddar: Well, we (Canada) has had 18 Comorants for SAR and we haven't had problems. There was the engine failure on the UK EH-101 earlier this year, but overall, I haven't heard too many negative reviews. Anything in particular to which you are referring?

Pille1234: Unfortunately, you're likely dead on. Just the Liberals afraid to say that they should have purchased the EH-101 earlier. I've been told the Comorant variant is a trimmed down version of the EH-101, so the government could have touted this as a cost saving measure. Still, it looks bad.

We also have already purchased some Comorants for SAR, though that was through a different project and bid process than the Seaking replacement project.

Take care all.

[Pooga]

Wow, I'm surprised! Thought you guys'd be getting a European helo for some reason. Congrats. :D


Come to think of it, anybody know the replacement/upgrade for the UH-60 Blackhawk? Well I suppose the Blackhawk has 7 more years to go (UH-1N was deployed 1971, UH-60 in 1978).

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Good lord I can't believe the UH-60 fleet is already reaching the end of its service life. I remember when it was the new kick-ass helo. I feel so ancient...where are my Pat Benetar records and Rubix cube? >sob<

[Pooga]

Hahaha Pat Benetar. :D

[memphiz]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040723/i/ra3895398834.jpg


The Canadian government has announced on July 23, 2004 that it will purchase 28 Sikorsky H-92 helicopters to replace its aging Sea King fleet. The Sikorsky H-92 Cyclone helicopter is a military version of the S-92, built by a division of U.S. conglomerate United Technologies

[Seraphim]

Didnt the Canadian army want a different helo instead of the one they're getting?

[scott]

i've got to say that im disappointed in the choice

cormorant just would have been a better fit
and yes i believe the forces wanted it

is it a highly political decision? probably
but i think economics outweighed politics and even capabilities on this one...

take care

[scott]

and i almost forgot the most important question

whats it going to be called? ;)


edit: if the canadian aircraft is called the goddamn cyclone im leaving this country...

[memphiz]

and i almost forgot the most important question

whats it going to be called? ;)


edit: if the canadian aircraft is called the goddamn cyclone im leaving this country...
the
CH-92 penguin

[Ghostwolf]

I think the message is we dont think anyone could posably do worse then EH-101.

Something wrong with the Merlin helicopter?

[Siddar]

I think the message is we dont think anyone could posably do worse then EH-101.

Something wrong with the Merlin helicopter?

Well I picking on poor EH-101 a little. :bash:

My view on it is that maintence of three engine helicopters seems to be a problem and I would not choose a three engine Helicopter if I didnt have to.

With the new more powerfull engines that will apear in next few years need for three engines in any but heavy lift helicopters seems remote.

[Otsoa]

The third engine in the Cormorant is actually well liked by the crews that fly it. There was a SAR mission in 2003 where they had to fly out past the Hibernia oil platform on the East Coast. The weather was very bad and while they flew out there and back on two engines, they did use the third when they hoisted the injured sailor off the vessel and when they had to touch down on Hibernia to refuel. The pilot who flew the mission had experience with the Labrador and said that the power of the third engine when it was needed came in handy and they loved the ability to shut it down in order to save fuel. He also mentioned that the Cormorant was able to handle far worse weather than what the Lab coudl handle.

[Pooga]

The Sea Stallion has a third engine too, for whatever that's worth.

[Siddar]

The Sea Stallion has a third engine too, for whatever that's worth.

Was it Sea Stallion are Super Sea Stallion that had three?

Super Stallion had same maitence trouble and is one of main reasons why most countrys stayed with Chinooks when Super Stallion clearly had better performance on paper.

[J-10]

Canada pays $3.2 billion for 28 new military helicopters
Last Updated Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:47:47 EDT

HALIFAX - After 20 years of delays and political bickering, the government will spend $3.2 billion to replace its aging fleet of Sea King helicopters. It will buy 28, twin-engine Sikorsky S-92 helicopters, Defence Minister Bill Graham announced on Friday.

The new fleet of helicopters is currently available only in a civilian format. The first helicopter will be delivered by 2008 and the other 27 helicopters will be sent at a rate of one per month.

In the mean time, the problem-plagued Sea Kings may have to keep flying until at least 2012.

The Sikorsky is "the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians," said Graham during his announcement at the Shearwater Naval Air Station near Halifax.

"The [helicopter] will enhance our national security by strengthening the Canadian Forces' ability to respond to emerging threats in Canada's maritime areas of jurisdiction," he added. "It will also help to ensure Canada maintains a meaningful capacity to contribute militarily to collective efforts to safeguard international peace and security."

The main competition for the contract came from the more expensive, three-engine EH-101 Cormorant, built by a British-Italian consortium.

Graham said the Sikorsky, dubbed the Cyclone, met the Canadian military's requirements at a lower cost, but airman Sgt. Phil Moffitt said given that the Canadian military is already flying 15 Cormorants, purchasing the more expensive helicopter would have been "better for cross training for technicians and air crew."

In 1987, the Canadian Defence Department recommended the government buy the Cormorant.

Canada is the only country to use the S-92 Sikorsky for military purposes, said the executive director of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies, but at this point the Canadian military is probably "glad to get anything," said David Rudd.

In 1992, the Brian Mulroney government had decided to buy 50, EH-101 helicopters to replace the Sea Kings, but the $5.8 billion contract was ripped up by the Liberals when they came to power in 1993, calling the helicopters, "Cadillacs" the nation couldn't afford.

The Liberal government paid $500 million in penalties for backing out of that deal.

The 1960s-era Sea Kings require an enormous amount of maintenance to keep them flying. There have been four fatal crashes since they were brought into service.

The helicopter deal will provide $1 billion in subcontracts to Atlantic Canada, said Sikorsky Friday. It also plans to partner with 170 Canadian firms and generate $37 million to aboriginal businesses.
CBC NEWS (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/07/23/seaking_replace040722.html)

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/sikorsky-s92_cp_6118440.jpghttp://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/gfx/sikorsky_s92.jpgThe Sikorsky S-92

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/gfx/eh101.jpgEuropean Helicopter Industries EH-101

[Pooga]

Was it Sea Stallion are Super Sea Stallion that had three?


The current USMC CH-53 thingummy. I guess that'd be the Super Sea Stalion then. eh? ;)

[[AFSOC]]

The Sea Hawk would've been nice too....but make it Maple Hawk

[Pooga]

So, second time, p-) , does anybody know if there's a replacement for the Blackhawk?

[Siddar]

So, second time, p-) , does anybody know if there's a replacement for the Blackhawk?

Basicly in US Blackhawk will replace Blackhawk from what ive heard.

There is a program to up Blackhawks engines to 3000hp each and make other improvements.

[Midav]

I believe the newest version of the Blackhawk is the "Mike". It should be the mainstay for about 20 years (my guess).

Question: What are the capabilities of both the EH101 and the S-92?

Have been trying to find a good link, but can not get any info. What I am curious about are range, carrying capacity etc...

Thanks for any info provided.

[FRO]

I believe the newest version of the Blackhawk is the "Mike". It should be the mainstay for about 20 years (my guess).

Question: What are the capabilities of both the EH101 and the S-92?

Have been trying to find a good link, but can not get any info. What I am curious about are range, carrying capacity etc...

Thanks for any info provided.

Hi Midav

Here are the respective links at "Air Force Technology." At the bottom right, you'll note a link to "Specifications." Hope that helps.

The H-92:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/superhawk/index.html

And the EH-101:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/eh101/

Take care all.

[Midav]

Thank you. However, I already checked that out and af-tech gives limited info on either one. FAS does as well.

[Harlequin]

For the EH101 just try the Agusta Westland Website. They have very detailed informations. Regarding range, payload etc just hit "technical data" and scroll to the bottom.
http://www.agustawestland.com/products01_01.asp?id_product=7

Regarding the S-92. You need a pdf- viewer for that:
http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,3036,CLI1_DIV69_ETI890,00.html

If you compare both, the S-92 and the EH101, the Merlin is pretty much "the biggest, the best, better than the rest" ;)

At least the biggest, with the longest range, highest endurance and highest payload and the only one with three engines, among the three new medium lift helicopters EH101, S-92 and NH90.

PS
IMO that decision was more a political one. How could the canadian government argue that they canceled the contract for the EH101 over 10 years ago, pay 500Mio $ in cancelation fees just to pay the EH101 _again_? No doubt that they had to chose a different helicopter IMO and since the NH90 got "disqualified", only one remained ...

[marktigger]

have heard many stories that the RAF don't like the Merlin.