Mexican flag has no place in an immigration march

[Afro-European]

Let's get this out of the way: I am the daughter of immigrants who fled Cuba in 1960. They arrived in this country with the blessing of the U.S. government, which generously offered people like my parents refuge from Castro's regime. My parents became fluent in English, became citizens as soon as they could and raised their four children on lechon asado (Cuban roast pork) and the Pledge of Allegiance.
It is a travesty that the government does not give more people the opportunities presented to my parents, and through them, to me. Instead, many people desperate for work or for freedom or both take the law into their own hands and enter the country illegally. I understand the feelings of the tens of thousands of people who marched (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032100956.html) on the National Mall yesterday in pursuit of immigration reform and, in particular, paths to citizenship for millions of undocumented workers. I understand their desire to live without fear of arrest, to simply do an honest day's work and to see their children thrive. I understand that our immigration system is haplessly dysfunctional and that major reforms are needed.
What I don't understand is the claim by some at the march that those here illegally are somehow victims.

Did they not choose to come to this country, and did they not know that they either entered illegally or illegally overstayed visas? Of course they did. Do they not appreciate that one of the things that makes this country great is the rule of law -- unlike, sadly, some of the countries we leave behind? If so, undocumented immigrants must take responsibility for their plight. Finally, I found it offensive that some people in yesterday's march waved the flags of Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador while demanding rights and privileges from this country. The flags and the demands for action "NOW!" suggested a sort of arrogance and entitlement when humility would have been more in order. Perhaps these marchers meant the flags as symbols of cultural or ethnic identity and not as political banners of foreign sovereigns. Perhaps they meant absolutely no offense and are at once proud of their heritage and sincere in their desire to become Americans. I trust that they did.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/03/the_mexican_flag_has_no_place.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[Ordie]

If people are free to fly the Separatist Confederate or NAZI flags under the 1st Amendment, then they are free to fly any flag.

[Marshall_Nord]

If people are free to fly the Separatist Confederate or NAZI flags under the 1st Amendment, then they are free to fly any flag.

Did you even read/understand what the author meant or did you do your knee-jerk reaction to this topic?

[Wimbly]

If people are free to fly the Separatist Confederate or NAZI flags under the 1st Amendment, then they are free to fly any flag.

If they're so proud of their country, why are they leaving it? What point of they trying to convey by carrying it at a rally?

[Connaught Ranger]

If they're so proud of their country, why are they leaving it? What point of they trying to convey by carrying it at a rally?

One can be proud of ones country and birth-right but be against the political apparatus that is currently running that location.

[Wimbly]

One can be proud of ones country and birth-right but be against the political apparatus that is currently running that location.
Americans don't leave America when someone they don't like gets elected. They stick around and fix it. These people apparently don't have the same values. They want to keep a Mexican identity, while using the US to benefit themselves. There is an element of extremism involved here too.

It comes down to disrespect. They aren't gaining any support.

[khaz]

They are not against the politicaL apparaus in Mexico they are criminals living in the US whining because they are asked to follow our laws to obtain Citizenship, yet flying the mexican flag at rallies to get amnesty.

Maybe they will stage another day without a mexican that was a big flop no one noticed. But obama will probably push through amnesty for them to buy thier votes in 2010 to counter the votes of Americans who see his true socialist colors.

[Connaught Ranger]

Americans don't leave America when someone they don't like gets elected. They stick around and fix it. These people apparently don't have the same values. They want to keep a Mexican identity, while using the US to benefit themselves. There is an element of extremism involved here too.

Oh Reilly:roll:

Many "Americans" left their respective homelands in Europe for various reasons since the 1750's and built the U.S.A. into what it is today, they routinely have parades and demonstrations and wave flags from their homeland, a classic example would be the recent St. Patricks Day Parade.

Connaught Ranger.

[Ordie]

They want to keep a Mexican identity, while using the US to benefit themselves. There is an element of extremism involved here too.

For generations Irish Americans supported anti-British Finneians and rebel movements in Ireland. Eamon De Valera was an American Citizen and that fact probably saved his life from the firing squad. That victim mentality carried over to Irish American support for the IRA and its terrorist activities.

[Panchito12]

If people are free to fly the Separatist Confederate or NAZI flags under the 1st Amendment, then they are free to fly any flag.

Did you look at the pic? The Mexicano flag had a gay flag attached to it. I'm not kidding.:cantbeli:

[Atlantic Friend]

If they're so proud of their country, why are they leaving it? What point of they trying to convey by carrying it at a rally?

[...]

It comes down to disrespect.



From what I can see, waving foreign flags doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in the US :

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8442/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg/)

St Patrick's Day, new York

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9378/13paradecityroom533.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/i/13paradecityroom533.jpg/)

Columbus Day, New York

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6793/israeliflag.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/israeliflag.jpg/)

Celebration of Israel's 61st birthday, new York.

Are those Italian-American, those Irish-American and those American Jews showing disrespect ?

[Panchito12]

Are those Italian-American, those Irish-American and those American jews showing disrespect ?


It's a pretty safe bet, and granted there may just be a couple of individual exceptions, that none of the folks in those pics CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY AND THEN DEMANDED CITIZENSHIP (not residence, but actual citizenship)!!!

[Atlantic Friend]

Could be, might be, but then again you don't know the situation of the Mexican flag-bearers mentioned in the quoted article either. Might also be very legal Mexican-Americans.

And I find it odd that a Mexican flag can be considered disrespectful when a Nazi flag will be protected by free speech rights or whatever. I'd have thought Nazism was responsible for much graver crimes than illegal immigration. But maybe that's just me.

[wildcat]

If people are free to fly the Separatist Confederate or NAZI flags under the 1st Amendment, then they are free to fly any flag.

I agree, they have the right BUT, as an immigrant who wants to be here, I would never do that, does not make sense to be waving the flag around, when I want to belong here.


Americans don't leave America when someone they don't like gets elected. They stick around and fix it. These people apparently don't have the same values. They want to keep a Mexican identity, while using the US to benefit themselves. There is an element of extremism involved here too.

well Rush limbaugh hopefully will, also we have the other pretenders too like john depp.
It comes down to disrespect. They aren't gaining any support.


Oh Reilly:roll:

Many "Americans" left their respective homelands in Europe for various reasons since the 1750's and built the U.S.A. into what it is today, they routinely have parades and demonstrations and wave flags from their homeland, a classic example would be the recent St. Patricks Day Parade.

Connaught Ranger.

good point.


Did you look at the pic? The Mexicano flag had a gay flag attached to it. I'm not kidding.:cantbeli:

he he he he, good spotting.

but


Perhaps these marchers meant the flags as symbols of cultural or ethnic identity and not as political banners of foreign sovereigns. Perhaps they meant absolutely no offense and are at once proud of their heritage and sincere in their desire to become Americans. I trust that they did.

yep proud

--------------------------

I hope we can stay a county of "Rule of Law", the biggest disrespect this illegals have done, is bring the attitude of "Rule of Man".

This is a nation built upon immigration, so I have no trouble with lots of immigrant entering the country, but they need to follow the rules, enter and stay within the bounds of the law. I don't think they deserve amnesty, but having compassion (conservative compassion, he he he), because at times, I am not a cold heart, some of these have made a new life, because where they were, there was not opportunity, but corruption and poverty, Now this is not all of them, and I think the ones that have fled to start this better life, deserve a system of atonement, in which they can give something back for the right to immigrate legally here, but should not be a free ticket. We also need to secure the border, but guess what, our political leaders don't agree, and never say why, leaving us to make up the reasons why.

The difference between this an a celebration like cinco de Mayo, Saint Patrick day, Israel birthday etc etc, is this is an immigration march, does not make sense, but it is not illegal, and the first amendment gives them the right, just seems odd, but should we really care, should we repress them, hell no, they have the right too.

[Atlantic Friend]

I'm all for upholding the law. Is it illegal for anyone, US citizen or resident, to possess and put on display a foreign flag? If so, then by all means let's drag the flag-bearers to jail. If it's legal, then tough cookies, unles someone wants to enforce a selective ban on flags, depending on which country is "in" and which is "out".

[CPL Trevoga]

They are not against the politicaL apparaus in Mexico they are criminals living in the US whining because they are asked to follow our laws to obtain Citizenship, yet flying the mexican flag at rallies to get amnesty.

Maybe they will stage another day without a mexican that was a big flop no one noticed. But obama will probably push through amnesty for them to buy thier votes in 2010 to counter the votes of Americans who see his true socialist colors.

The criminals are in Washington, who knowingly DID NOT secure the border with Mexico. Aren't they required uphold and defend laws of the land? To me, it looks like somebody had interest in allowing cheap labor in. And the nice thing about illegals is that they can not vote.

[Danik]

Are those Italian-American, those Irish-American and those American jews showing disrespect ?

What a fail comparison.

If those same groups were illegal immigrants and they wanted amnesty in the US I would expect them to waive US flags. If you came here illegally, don't know the language, and then demand citizenship while shouting in said foreign language while waiving the flag of your country of origin you should not expect to win the sympathy of any of your possible future neighbors.

In fact don't be surprised if public opinion is squarely against you based on your behavior.

[Atlantic Friend]

What a fail comparison.

If those same groups were illegal immigrants and they wanted amnesty in the US I would expect them to waive US flags. If you came here illegally, don't know the language, and then demand citizenship while shouting in said foreign language while waiving the flag of your country of origin you should not expect to win the sympathy of any of your possible future neighbors.

In fact don't be surprised if public opinion is squarely against you based on your behavior.

Again, is possession and display of a foreign flag an illegal act by itself? Or an indication that you are an illegal alien who doesn't speak English?

Flag-waving doesn't create illegal immigration, so if this is the issue you're after, I think there are better avenues for fighting it.

[ABN MP]

But to me the irony of the author is she was GIVEN amnest for nothing. I do not agree with the Feet Dry policy granted to Cubans. It is nothing more than illegal immigration. If we are gving them amnesty due to the dictator in power are we going to do it for national of other countries also?

[Wimbly]

Are those Italian-American, those Irish-American and those American Jews showing disrespect ?

These people are celebrating heritage or specific events, not demanding citizenship.


Could be, might be, but then again you don't know the situation of the Mexican flag-bearers mentioned in the quoted article either. Might also be very legal Mexican-Americans.

At a rally that is demanding citizenship for illegals. It has nothing to do with a special event or a celebration. Its a nationalistic slap in the face, while making demands.



And I find it odd that a Mexican flag can be considered disrespectful when a Nazi flag will be protected by free speech rights or whatever.

What are you talking about? Nazi flags are seen very much as a sign of disrespect. If a bunch of euros illegally entered the country, marched in a rally demanding citizenship and carried Nazi flags, I'd say the same thing.

[LineDoggie]

Did you even read/understand what the author meant or did you do your knee-jerk reaction to this topic?Knee Jerked because of the title no doubt.

[sgt_G]

I really have no problem with legal citizens waving the flag of their home country...


I do however, have a problem with people spouting hate and waving either a nazi flag or a confederate flag (the latter is due to a lot of ignorance IMHO)

I do have a problem when someone in this country illegaly waves a flag of their country and yells "gimme gimme gimme" but will not do the right thing and become a citizen

and I really do have a problem when people who are in this country illegaly decide to hold a rally and raise a flag of their country on a federal building (it was done in Maywood a few years ago) guess either they didn't know that can be construed as an act of war or they didn't care

matter of fact I have a real problem with anyone taking any flag other than the U.S. flag and flying it on any federal, city, or state building!

http://www.youtube.com/v/AIB_XGRm6UQ
there is a longer vid, but I figured this would do

[LineDoggie]

From what I can see, waving foreign flags doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in the US :

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8442/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg/)

St Patrick's Day, new York
You do realize that Many of the Crowd on St. Pats day in NYC arent of Irish Heritage? or did you figure because they are White you could lump them together as Irish?

Of all My friends growing up who regularly attended the Parade, My Family was the only with Irish roots. Most were Italian & German, Poles. Many of the Businesses let employees attend the parade. Hell even the French Embassy @ 972 Fifth Ave hangs an Irish flag that day.

Sacre Bleu!

[kamaz]

Oh Reilly:roll:

Many "Americans" left their respective homelands in Europe for various reasons since the 1750's and built the U.S.A. into what it is today, they routinely have parades and demonstrations and wave flags from their homeland, a classic example would be the recent St. Patricks Day Parade.

Connaught Ranger.

comparing waving Mexican flag at a rally for illegal immigration to a parade dedicated to whiskey and Guiness and drunkeness is beyond stupid. Cmon man.

[gaijinsamurai]

I agree with kamaz and wimbley.

I've been around enough of the MEChA crowd to know that often, flying the Mexican flag has very political connotations. While Americans of Mexican descent are patriotic, hard-working and law-abiding Americans (including some of my best friends in the Marine Corps), there is a sizable percentage that believe parts of the United States are Mexican soil, stolen from Mexico by the US.

And I've known naturalized Mexican-Americans who have been totally upfront about their hatred for the United States, their contempt for Americans, and the fact that they only have US citizenship in order to make more money and have a more comfortable life.

[el borracho]

This is a nation built upon immigration, so I have no trouble with lots of immigrant entering the country, but they need to follow the rules, enter and stay within the bounds of the law.

This is the biggest divide between the Mexican immigrant population and the rest of the US, it's not what language you speak, what church you attend, or what food you eat. In Mexico, laws, law enforcement and government authority mean absolutely nothing, especially in the backwoods ranchos and pueblas where these people came from. These people have no idea of the concept that Americans' ancestors fought and died to grant us the right to vote and enact these laws, which all are expected to live by. Back home, their experience with police or government was a mysterious strongarm entity that existed only to extort and harass them and they can't see the American legal concept in a different light. Also, a lot of them assume that since it was so easy to become established in the US illegally if they were doing something legally wrong the entire process should have been much harder. Once one crosses the border, it is relatively simple to acquire a job, find a residence, and sign up for any number of handout programs. For someone who does not understand the culture or legal ramifications of their actions they could easily assume we encourage them to come here, since this country is so accommodating.

The same analogy applies to the flags. Mexicans don't see the flag as a matter of national sovereignty. Dictators and corrupt politicians come and go, but to them the flag represents a people and their heritage...and again, they don't understand that Americans' aren't looking at the situation like that. They see their flags get taken down and assume that Americans are telling them that "we're better than you" but they're still oblivious to why their flag should not have been there in the first place.

[Marshall_Nord]

It's a pretty safe bet, and granted there may just be a couple of individual exceptions, that none of the folks in those pics CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY AND THEN DEMANDED CITIZENSHIP (not residence, but actual citizenship)!!!

If they did, I'm sure their decedents speak English and are squarely assimilated into the culture.


Nostalgic remembrance of one’s origins is different than the “in your face” I’m here, I demand America change to accommodate me!

[LineDoggie]

This is the biggest divide between the Mexican immigrant population and the rest of the US, it's not what language you speak, what church you attend, or what food you eat. In Mexico, laws, law enforcement and government authority mean absolutely nothing, especially in the backwoods ranchos and pueblas where these people came from. These people have no idea of the concept that Americans' ancestors fought and died to grant us the right to vote and enact these laws, which all are expected to live by. Back home, their experience with police or government was a mysterious strongarm entity that existed only to extort and harass them and they can't see the American legal concept in a different light. Also, a lot of them assume that since it was so easy to become established in the US illegally if they were doing something legally wrong the entire process should have been much harder. Once one crosses the border, it is relatively simple to acquire a job, find a residence, and sign up for any number of handout programs. For someone who does not understand the culture or legal ramifications of their actions they could easily assume we encourage them to come here, since this country is so accommodating.

The same analogy applies to the flags. Mexicans don't see the flag as a matter of national sovereignty. Dictators and corrupt politicians come and go, but to them the flag represents a people and their heritage...and again, they don't understand that Americans' aren't looking at the situation like that. They see their flags get taken down and assume that Americans are telling them that "we're better than you" but they're still oblivious to why their flag should not have been there in the first place.

And isn't it ironic how Mexico treat Illegal Immigrants to Mexico?

[el borracho]

And isn't it ironic how Mexico treat Illegal Immigrants to Mexico?

You mean the two year imprisonment term? I tell that to Mexicans and they seem shocked, which points to my first post about how they are oblivious of the laws and policies in their own country.

[California Joe]

Illegal by definition is just that. Against the law. It's simplistic and black and white. Do not come to my country illegally and celebrate it with a f*cking parade whilst flying the flag of the f*cking country you could not wait to leave.

Don't make me get Hot Lips in here...

[khalifah]

I agree with kamaz and wimbley.

I've been around enough of the MEChA crowd to know that often, flying the Mexican flag has very political connotations. While Americans of Mexican descent are patriotic, hard-working and law-abiding Americans (including some of my best friends in the Marine Corps), there is a sizable percentage that believe parts of the United States are Mexican soil, stolen from Mexico by the US.

And I've known naturalized Mexican-Americans who have been totally upfront about their hatred for the United States, their contempt for Americans, and the fact that they only have US citizenship in order to make more money and have a more comfortable life.

this,

put the clock back to the texas revolution, the violent outing of Tejanos by the growing anglo population afterwards. fast-forward to the Mexican Revolution of 1910 and the refugees coming across the border because of that. Then remember the insurgency of 1915 with the "plan de san diego" the killings commited by the Rangers.

now growing up iin South Texas, my family prodominantly comes from a Mexican background, and if theres one thing i can say about Mexican heritage, at least in South Texas, is that oral history plays a big role in learing about our past.Every now and then, my grandmother recalls songs sung by her parents/grandparents about noble bandits who fought the Rangers in 1915, and every time, its shocking to hear. My family now is wholy intergrated into American culture, heritage, or whatever you want to call it. What sort of stories do their, the immigrants, parents/grandparents remember of when the border was not as high profile as it is now?

personally, im sick of this nationalist mindset of many(but not all) immigrants coming over the border, illegal or not. A lot DO come for the benefits allowed by the welfare programs allowed by the state(namely the Texas WIC) while demaning more rights from the government while contributing little. Of course though, there are exceptions, but this is a topic for another discusson.

[Ordie]

Illegal by definition is just that. Against the law. It's simplistic and black and white. Do not come to my country illegally and celebrate it with a f*cking parade whilst flying the flag of the f*cking country you could not wait to leave.

Don't make me get Hot Lips in here...

But how does one could visibly tell if a person is undocumented or not at a parade?

[SBL]

But how does one could visibly tell if a person is undocumented or not at a parade?
I'd argue stature and grooming habits are a pretty reliable indicator, if not entirely PC. That doesn't really matter, though, as the issue is the purpose and presence of the Mexican flag at certain rallies, not particularly who is waving them.

[Ordie]

I'd argue stature and grooming habits are a pretty reliable indicator.


So you can tell if a person is undocumented by grooming standards? does this include Europeans who overstay thier visa as well?

[SBL]

does this include Europeans who overstay thier visa as well?
Probably not.

[LineDoggie]

I'd argue a dozen or so in front of the Local Home Depot's exits offering everything from Sheetrocking to Moving is.....

In Huntington, the town didnt like the corner Illegals gathering and blocking traffic.

They purchased a House 1 block from Rt.110 to use as a focal point for Hiring. Re-furbed the house with more toilets and couches , large parking area, Councilors,etc.

Worked for a Month, and now they're all over again.

[Ordie]

I'd argue a dozen or so in front of the Local Home Depot's exits offering everything from Sheetrocking to Moving is.....

In Huntington, the town didnt like the corner Illegals gathering and blocking traffic.

They purchased a House 1 block from Rt.110 to use as a focal point for Hiring. Re-furbed the house with more toilets and couches , large parking area, Councilors,etc.

Worked for a Month, and now they're all over again.

They wouldn't be out there if they weren't getting picked up for odd jobs from contractors or weekend do it yourself types.

[LineDoggie]

They wouldn't be out there if they weren't getting picked up for odd jobs from contractors or weekend do it yourself types.But they would still be Illegals which is the Point

[Ordie]

But they would still be Illegals which is the Point

Unless you ask them, you assume they are undocumented.

[brainplay]

Every now and then, my grandmother recalls songs sung by her parents/grandparents about noble bandits who fought the Rangers in 1915, and every time, its shocking to hear.

My Great Grandfather was a Spanish immigrant back in the day. The views and names with which he referred to Mexicans were to say the least...unflattering. My Grandfather had an utter disdain for them for "stealing our lands from us" and screwing up during the Mex-American war despite the support sent. My dad wasn't affected by it and neither was I. It's just the kind of thing that dilutes over time with generations. Although it's galling that many 2nd and 3rd gen kids from anchor babies still push the ideal.


They wouldn't be out there if they weren't getting picked up for odd jobs from contractors or weekend do it yourself types.

I'm missing the point here somewhere. So what?


But how does one could visibly tell if a person is undocumented or not at a parade?

Doesn't matter. Supporting them in the illegal endeavors while flying their flag while in this country is downright disrespectful. For all intents and purposes the fact that their own nation can't provide opportunities for them which necessitates them committing a crime against another country ought to put their flags to shame.

[Danik]

Again, is possession and display of a foreign flag an illegal act by itself? Or an indication that you are an illegal alien who doesn't speak English?

Flag-waving doesn't create illegal immigration, so if this is the issue you're after, I think there are better avenues for fighting it.


No.No.

This issue of Illegal immigration, which for some reason has been dubbed the "immigration issue", is a hot topic. Running around demanding amnesty while waving a Mexican flag and speaking Spanish is not going to get me to write a letter to my senator asking to resolve the issue in their favor, in fact of all things this will get me to protest AGAINST any type of amnesty.

[LineDoggie]

Unless you ask them, you assume they are undocumented. I dont assume anything. I've seen the ICE raids on them. Gee, walk up to an Illegal and ask if he's Illegal...... Yeah you'll get the truth

Brilliant plan that :roll:

[Stefan850]

I never understood the thing with USA and illegal immigrants. If they are illegal, shouldn't they be kicked out? I know a couple of people from my country, Serbia, that went to US on a travel visa and then just stayed there, got drivers licence, job, everything.

I don't know a lot about the subject but with this little I know I think US should ease up legal immigration and get real tough on illegal.

[Marshall_Nord]

...I think US should ease up legal immigration and get real tough on illegal.

That would make sense.

So, I can only assume that politicians (from both sides) are benefitting by keeping it chaotic. The Dems and their activists like it for swelling the victim culture - “Vote for me and I’ll provide you with bread and circuses”. The Reps and their business allies like it for the quasi-serf labor it provides - “Can you believe all the money I save by hiring these hard-working mules!”

[V.I.D.]

No.No.

This issue of Illegal immigration, which for some reason has been dubbed the "immigration issue", is a hot topic. Running around demanding amnesty while waving a Mexican flag and speaking Spanish is not going to get me to write a letter to my senator asking to resolve the issue in their favor, in fact of all things this will get me to protest AGAINST any type of amnesty.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. It took me some very long and painstaking time to legally immigrate to US, and even then it was only possible because I have obtained a good degree from US college and got married to US citizen. These days, it is next to impossible to immigrate LEGALLY to this country (without marriage to US citizen), while these criminals break the US laws and then have the audacity to "demand their rights". While there are so many decent, intelligent, and hard-working people truly contributing to this society, there's virtually nothing being done to help them achieve their piece of the American Dream. Some of them are forced to leave US as their visas get expired, but you don't see them protesting against outdated and strict immigration laws. Yet, somehow, it is always this combination of non-English speaking, uneducated, and illegal immigrants that get mentioned under "immigration reform/comprehensive plan". After all these years of unnecessary hassle, I am still proud of and grateful to my adopted country and have no desire to wave Serbian flag in public places. There's absolutely nothing that can rile me up as bad as this illegal immigrant debate (and PC crowd that ignorantly defends them), what a bunch of ungrateful, self-entitled parasites. Take your ticket and get back in line, just like everyone else coming here legally.

[Surf City]

One can be proud of ones country and birth-right but be against the political apparatus that is currently running that location.

Then change it at home instead of invading another country and demanding everything under the sun while waving your national flag! It makes one wonder why illegal aliens won't try this bull**** in their home countries?!?

A total slap in the face to the rest of us immigrants who came here legally and waited our turns for the privilege to become United States citizens.

Great article from Newsweek:



THE HARD TRUTH OF IMMIGRATION NO SOCIETY HAS A BOUNDLESS CAPACITY TO ACCEPT NEWCOMERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN MANY OF THEM ARE POOR OR UNSKILLED WORKERS.


By Robert J. Samuelson (http://www.newsweek.com/id/182992) | NEWSWEEK

From the magazine issue dated Jun 13, 2005

Immigration is crawling its way back onto the national agenda--and not just as a footnote to keeping terrorists out. Earlier this year, Congress enacted a law intended to prevent illegal aliens from getting state drivers' licenses; the volunteer "minutemen" who recently patrolled the porous Arizona border with Mexico attracted huge attention, and members of Congress from both parties are now crafting proposals to deal with illegal immigration. All this is good. But unless we're brutally candid with ourselves, it won't amount to much. Being brutally candid means recognizing that the huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled Latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process.
Americans rightly glorify our heritage of absorbing immigrants. Over time, they move into the economic, political and social mainstream; over time, they become American rather than whatever they were--even though immigrants themselves constantly refashion the American identity. But no society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many are poor and unskilled. There are now an estimated 34 million immigrants in the United States, about a third of them illegal. About 35 percent lack health insurance and 26 percent receive some sort of federal benefit, reports Steven Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies. To make immigration succeed, we need (paradoxically) to control immigration.




Although this is common sense, it's common sense that fits uneasily inside our adversarial political culture. You're supposed to be either pro-immigrant or anti-immigrant--it's hard to be pro-immigrant and pro tougher immigration restrictions. But that's the sensible position, as any examination of immigration trends suggests.
Consider a new study of Mexican immigrants by Harvard economists George Borjas and Lawrence Katz. Mexicans are now the single largest group of U.S. immigrants, 30 percent of the total in 2000. Indeed, the present Mexican immigration "is historically unprecedented, being both numerically and proportionately larger than any other immigrant influx in the past century," note Borjas and Katz. In 1920, for example, the two largest immigrant groups--Germans and Italians--totaled only 24 percent of the immigrant population.
Some Mexican-Americans have made spectacular gains, but the overall picture is dispiriting. Among men, about one in 20 U.S. workers is now a Mexican immigrant; in 1970, that was less than one in 100. The vast majority of Mexican workers lacked a high-school diploma in 2000 (63 percent for men, 57 percent for women). Only a tiny share had college degrees (3 percent for men, 5 percent for women). By contrast, only 7 percent of native-born U.S. workers were high-school dropouts and 28 percent were college graduates in 2000. Mexican workers are inevitably crammed into low-wage jobs: food workers, janitors, gardeners, laborers, farm workers. In 2000, their average wages were 41 percent lower than average U.S. wages for men and 33 percent lower for women.
What's particularly disturbing about the Borjas-Katz study is that children of Mexican immigrants don't advance quickly. In 2000, Americans of Mexican ancestry still had lower levels of educational achievement and wages than most native-born workers. Among men, the wage gap was 27 percent; about 21 percent were high-school dropouts and only 11 percent were college graduates. Borjas and Katz can't explain the lags. "What's the role of culture vs. lousy [U.S.] schools?" asks Katz. "It's hard to say." Borjas doubts that the cause is discrimination. Low skills seem to explain most of the gap, he says. Indeed, after correcting for education and age, most of the wage gap disappears. Otherwise, says Borjas, "I don't know."
But some things we do know--or can infer. For today's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal), the closest competitors are tomorrow's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal). The more who arrive, the harder it will be for existing low-skilled workers to advance. Despite the recession, immigration did not much slow after 2000, says Camarota. Not surprisingly, a study by the Pew Hispanic Center found that inflation-adjusted weekly earnings for all Hispanics (foreign and American-born) dropped by 2.2 percent in 2003 and 2.6 percent in 2004. "Latinos are the only major group of workers whose wages have fallen for two consecutive years," said the study. Similarly, the more poor immigrants, the harder it will be for schools to improve the skills of their children. The schools will be overwhelmed; the same goes for social services.
We could do a better job of stopping illegal immigration on our southern border and of policing employers who hire illegal immigrants. At the same time, we could provide legal status to illegal immigrants already here. We could also make more sensible decisions about legal immigrants--favoring the skilled over the unskilled. But the necessary steps are much tougher than most politicians have so far embraced, and their timidity reflects a lack of candor about the seriousness of the problem. The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger?


http://www.newsweek.com/id/50081

[budgie]

Oh Reilly:roll:

Many "Americans" left their respective homelands in Europe for various reasons since the 1750's and built the U.S.A. into what it is today, they routinely have parades and demonstrations and wave flags from their homeland, a classic example would be the recent St. Patricks Day Parade.

Connaught Ranger.


Americans don't leave America when someone they don't like gets elected. They stick around and fix it. These people apparently don't have the same values. They want to keep a Mexican identity, while using the US to benefit themselves. There is an element of extremism involved here too.

It comes down to disrespect. They aren't gaining any support.



From what I can see, waving foreign flags doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in the US :

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8442/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/largestpatricksdayrevel.jpg/)

St Patrick's Day, new York

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9378/13paradecityroom533.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/i/13paradecityroom533.jpg/)

Columbus Day, New York

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6793/israeliflag.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/israeliflag.jpg/)

Celebration of Israel's 61st birthday, new York.

Are those Italian-American, those Irish-American and those American Jews showing disrespect ?



But you're missing the point. The Irish and the Juice are okay. All Mexicans are in the US illegally see?

Fact is many Americans simply don't like the word Mexican. They don't like immigrants from certain countries and prefer to think they are all illegals or some kind of terrorist sleeper cell. I can only imagine what ire it would raise here to see a parade of people from Muslim countries flying green flags with half moons and the like.

[LineDoggie]

But you're missing the point. The Irish and the Juice are okay. All Mexicans are in the US illegally see?

Fact is many Americans simply don't like the word Mexican. They don't like immigrants from certain countries and prefer to think they are all illegals or some kind of terrorist sleeper cell. I can only imagine what ire it would raise here to see a parade of people from Muslim countries flying green flags with half moons and the like.
I find it hysteric that you're not from the USA or Live here, yet you Presume to tell those of us who are what we think.

[brainplay]

But you're missing the point. The Irish and the Juice are okay. All Mexicans are in the US illegally see?

Fact is many Americans simply don't like the word Mexican. They don't like immigrants from certain countries and prefer to think they are all illegals or some kind of terrorist sleeper cell. I can only imagine what ire it would raise here to see a parade of people from Muslim countries flying green flags with half moons and the like.

No, you're missing the point. Those folks are LEGAL immigrants who are celebrating their heritage. It's fine when the Mexicans want to do it during their Cinco de Mayo if they're CITIZENS. But showing up and waving a flag demanding rights when they are in the US criminally or are citizens supporting their cause would be like me showing up in Mexico city with a Texas flag and demand they pay for free healthcare and lodging.

We don't like ILLEGAL ALIENS. Don't try to change the word. They're here ILLEGALLY. There is no getting around that part. Many of them aren't even immigrants but rather transients as most will head back home after collecting a nest egg of cash. The fact is that no other immigrant or alien group has the kind of impact that ILLEGAL ALIENS do in the country. Could you imagine how much easier gaining citizenship would be if we didn't have hundreds of thousands crossing the border ILLEGALLY and thus requiring such harsh laws?

Muslim immigrants are free to fly their flags as long as they are CITIZENS. Not ILLEGAL ALIENS. CITIZENS have the right to do so. Many have taken that opportunity to do so. Heck, I wish they would do it more often instead of slinking back and not integrating. Hummus and lamb is good stuff.

Edit:
that you're not from the USA or Live hereWait..WTF?! He's not?

[Ordie]

Doesn't matter. Supporting them in the illegal endeavors while flying their flag while in this country is downright disrespectful. For all intents and purposes the fact that their own nation can't provide opportunities for them which necessitates them committing a crime against another country ought to put their flags to shame.

I don't think that is the case. It just folks demanding immigration reform. Which in my opinion its is outdated, irrelevant in meeting the demands of the marketplace and social needs of the country.

That said we need a healthly influx of immigrants for the following reasons:

1) To start new businesses and create jobs. With our transparent rule of law and business enviromment, the US is still an attractive place to invest and build
2) To meet the goods and service demands of of Growing Baby Boomer aging population.
3) To meet the employment demands of a growing health care industry. With 30 million newly insured, there will be a need for doctors, nurses and other health professionals.
4) To maintain our center of gravity in the world. Immigrants bring innovation, fresh ideas and vigor that would otherwise would not thrive in their home countries.

Now that health care is out of the way, the next big aganda item will be immigration reform. I do not envision to be the same as the health care debate and passage. I foresee a phasing of legislations over time to update the poilices. I will not be surprised if the President will enlist George W. Bush, businesses (High tech / Agri) and edcuational institutions in reaching out to the GOP. Given this year's census, the states that are going to get seats in Congress, additional Federal funding and electorial college votes, will be the states that had a high immigration trend for the past 10 years.

[Ordie]

Those folks are LEGAL immigrants who are celebrating their heritage.

How do you know?

I've known many Irish undocumented immigrants in San Francisco construction trade. I've even met a IRA fugitive from the Maze Prision (Jimmy Smyth) at a local pub.

Don't assume if one is not Mexican he is not undocumented.

[Surf City]

I don't think that is the case. It just folks demanding immigration reform. Which in my opinion its is outdated, irrelevant in meeting the demands of the marketplace and social needs of the country.

That said we need a healthly influx of immigrants for the following reasons:

1) To start new businesses and create jobs. With our transparent rule of law and business enviromment, the US is still an attractive place to invest and build
2) To meet the goods and service demands of of Growing Baby Boomer aging population.
3) To meet the employment demands of a growing health care industry. With 30 million newly insured, there will be a need for doctors, nurses and other health professionals.
4) To maintain our center of gravity in the world. Immigrants bring innovation, fresh ideas and vigor that would otherwise would not thrive in their home countries.

And who exactly do you think is crossing the border? I'll give you a hint, it ain't doctors, nurses and health professionals....unless you count the ones practicing illegally in East L.A. who've killed their patients while doing cosmetic procedures. The majority crossing illegally from Mexico/Central & South America (b/c that's who we're talking about) are not contributing brainpower to the U.S. (read my earlier post & link).


Woman dies when cooking oil is used instead of Botox
Thursday, 26 October 2006

Martha Mata Vasquez pleaded guilty to four counts of practicing medicine without a licence, five counts of fraud and involuntary manslaughter in a Monterey courtroom, arising out of an unlicensed business, The New Image, that she had been running in Salinas since 2001.

Vasquez was said to have injected cooking oil, Mazola Corn Oil, instead of using Botox. One of her clients, Mario Castillo, died a week after being injected with this cooking oil in November of 2005. In addition to this death, many patients had complained of painful side effects, one woman had required corrective surgery and one male client had slipped into a coma.

Sentencing has been scheduled for January 17th 2007 while Vasquez remains in custody. She could face 15 years to life in prison for the crimes.

UPDATE: Jan 18th: Vasquez has been sentenced to 15 years in prison and will be eligible for parole in 12 years.


http://www.lipo.com/health-articles/botox,-injectables-and-lip-implants/woman-dies-when-cooking-oil-is-used-instead-of-botox-20061026164/




Now that health care is out of the way, the next big aganda item will be immigration reform. I do not envision to be the same as the health care debate and passage. I foresee a phasing of legislations over time to update the poilices. I will not be surprised if the President will enlist George W. Bush, businesses (High tech / Agri) and edcuational institutions in reaching out to the GOP. Given this year's census, the states that are going to get seats in Congress, additional Federal funding and electorial college votes, will be the states that had a high immigration trend for the past 10 years.

Immigration reform so that there are no more Illegals = free health care for est. 10 - 20 million current illegals in the U.S. I'm sure amnesty and a new immigration bill will prevent more illegals from ever coming here again. :roll:

Hopefully, U.S. citizens have had enough crap rammed down their throats the last couple years that amnesty will never be given!

[Ordie]

Hopefully, U.S. citizens have had enough crap rammed down their throats the last couple years that amnesty will never be given!

Which is better?

Raising your taxes or having 12 million new taxpayers.

[Wimbly]

Fact is many Americans simply don't like the word Mexican.

I think maybe its you who doesn't like the word American. How exactly do you gleam such brilliant insights?

[bryanleu2002]

Which is better?

Raising your taxes or having 12 million new taxpayers.

Lowering taxes and ejecting 12 million "non" taxpayers. is better YET!

[Ordie]

Lowering taxes and ejecting 12 million "non" taxpayers. is better YET!

You need to raise $48 Billion (Entire DHS Budget) to 'eject' 12 million people. (+ legal fees).

[bryanleu2002]

You need to raise $48 Billion (Entire DHS Budget) to 'eject' 12 million people. (+ legal fees).


How do we get 12 million "Non taxpayers" (Home Depot sidewalk leaches) to leave for free? Hmmm, ?

you tell me "Odie"?. We have 50 to 60 Hispanics standing on the corner of home depot taking cash jobs from Latino unlicensed contractors here in my state, undermineng my job and my legal tax paying employer and me. And the only reason i know that they are unlicensed contractors, is because i followed them one time, and turned them into the Labor and industries, which didn't do any good because they could not identify them, their records, who they were, or if they were working illegally or not.

Ordie, these people are not paying taxes, they are milking the taxpayer like me, and taking my Job!

[Panchito12]

Which is better?

Raising your taxes or having 12 million new taxpayers.

Neither. I would choose deporting the 12 million back to their country and having them follow the correct and legal process to immigrate just like the rest. At least that's how my wife did it. If it was good enough for her, why not for the illegal dude from Mexico?




And the only reason i know that they are unlicensed contractors, is because i followed them one time, and turned them into the Labor and industries, which didn't do any good because they could not identify them, their records, who they were, or if they were or, were not working illegally or not.

...before 9/11, when arpt security was a complete joke, I was waiting one night in Orlando for a flight back to DC when I noticed over 30 clearly Hispanic-looking types exiting an acft, without a single handbag among the lot. They walked up to some scruffy looking Hispanic guys who was checking their names off a yellow pad.

So I meandered to the nearest police officer, identified myself and my Federal agency, and informed him that in my professional opinion the 30, plus their handler, were illegal. The officer and his partner walked up to the group and suddenly.....THEY ALL BOLTED!!! It was like the perennial turn-the-light-on and watch the roaches scamper. Man some of these guys ran at olympic speed.

The short story is that they caught most of them, and yes they were all illegal.

[LaoSexMachine]

How do we get 12 million "Non taxpayers" (Home Depot sidewalk leaches) to leave for free? Hmmm, ?

you tell me "Odie"?. We have 50 to 60 Hispanics standing on the corner of home depot taking cash jobs from Latino unlicensed contractors here in my state, undermineng my job and my legal tax paying employer and me. And the only reason i know that they are unlicensed contractors, is because i followed them one time, and turned them into the Labor and industries, which didn't do any good because they could not identify them, their records, who they were, or if they were working illegally or not.

Ordie, these people are not paying taxes, they are milking the taxpayer like me, and taking my Job!

Funny thing is thier own 'people' take advantage of them. 12 hour days, 15 minute lunch, and for around $50 a day. Tax free. I see it day in and day out. Sometimes they don't even get paid. Tell them to meet at a certain place but never show up. Free work. Move on an prey on to the next group of people.

[Ordie]

Lowering taxes and ejecting 12 million "non" taxpayers. is better YET!

You're incorrect.

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.

They pay sales taxes on goods and services purchased.
They pay property taxes through property ownership and rents.
They pay payroll taxes and contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim.
They file income taxes through the IRS Individual Taxpayer Identification Number which generated 50 billion in taxes from 1996 to 2003.

[Ordie]

Funny thing is thier own 'people' take advantage of them. 12 hour days, 15 minute lunch, and for around $50 a day. Tax free. I see it day in and day out. Sometimes they don't even get paid. Tell them to meet at a certain place but never show up. Free work. Move on an prey on to the next group of people.

The question is what do they spend with $50.00 and how much is it taxed.

Bus fares account 20% of public transit services.
Sales taxes is roughly 8%
A portion of rent covers the landlords property taxes.

[Hollis]

Funny thing is thier own 'people' take advantage of them. 12 hour days, 15 minute lunch, and for around $50 a day. Tax free. I see it day in and day out. Sometimes they don't even get paid. Tell them to meet at a certain place but never show up. Free work. Move on an prey on to the next group of people.

Probably the worse part, when they are outside of the law, the will not be used the law to defend their rights against wrongful acts.


You're incorrect.

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.

They pay sales taxes on goods and services purchased.
They pay property taxes through property ownership and rents.
They pay payroll taxes and contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim.
They file income taxes through the IRS Individual Taxpayer Identification Number which generated 50 billion in taxes from 1996 to 2003.

QFT, Bush's documented worker program was not a bad idea, but because it was from Bush, it never got off the ground.

[CPL Trevoga]

Neither. I would choose deporting the 12 million back to their country and having them follow the correct and legal process to immigrate just like the rest. At least that's how my wife did it. If it was good enough for her, why not for the illegal dude from Mexico?

...before 9/11, when arpt security was a complete joke, I was waiting one night in Orlando for a flight back to DC when I noticed over 30 clearly Hispanic-looking types exiting an acft, without a single handbag among the lot. They walked up to some scruffy looking Hispanic guys who was checking their names off a yellow pad.
So I meandered to the nearest police officer, identified myself and my Federal agency, and informed him that in my professional opinion the 30, plus their handler, were illegal. The officer and his partner walked up to the group and suddenly.....THEY ALL BOLTED!!! It was like the perennial turn-the-light-on and watch the roaches scamper. Man some of these guys ran at olympic speed.

The short story is that they caught most of them, and yes they were all illegal.

So in your professional opinion, do you think issue of illegal immigration will go away any time soon, with Mexican-US border being like Swiss cheese? Do you think it's illegals fault that the border is not secured? Isn't the laws of the land apply to all people who are inside US?

[Ordie]

QFT, Bush's documented worker program was not a bad idea, but because it was from Bush, it never got off the ground.

I liked Bush's ideas.

But Bush never got the support of the GOP (do nothing) congress.

I do not foresee a comprehensive package this time. I do see chunks of less controversial reform being passed with support of both parties.

For example:
1) More green cards for immigrant investors with $500K and above with the intent to start businesses and hire locals
2) Point system for critical professions or labor demand
3) Passport screening when exiting the country
4) Repeal political exemptions (Cubans dry foot)
5) The cap for the H1-B Visa should be raised.
6) Due process and jail waiver for undocumented immigrants wishing to turn themselves in and return home immediately. (Many do not turn themselves in because of the mandatory jail sentence that could last up to 6 months)

Doing nothing is not an option because it only adds the woes.
Agribusiness and meat packers may benefit from inexpensive labor, while a construction worker sees fewer jobs and lower pay. Upper income folks may get cheap housekeeping or lawn care, while a college student has fewer companies offering positions and ends up working at Starbucks.

The solution is to increase the number of immigrants with money to stimulate the local economy and higher paying jobs. Convert the undocumented into a legal status (not citizenship / not permanent residency) but a transparent status to force the employers to pay prevailing wages and submit their taxes. They can return and back and forth into the US based on seasonal demands and if they have $500k they can invest and start businesses and create jobs in the USA. For this to happen you need passport controls when leaving the country. This is also a good means to track visa overstays.

[Ordie]

So in your professional opinion, do you think issue of illegal immigration will go away any time soon, with Mexican-US border being like Swiss cheese? Do you think it's illegals fault that the border is not secured? Isn't the laws of the land apply to all people who are inside US?

You're too myopic on the border.

40% of all undocumented arrive legally but overstay their visa. Without exit passport controls, we have no idea who left the country.

[Surf City]

Which is better?

Raising your taxes or having 12 million new taxpayers.

Neither. I favor straight deportation along with the anchor babies (unfortunately the U.S. Constitution needs to be amended in order for this to happen) and have them apply lawfully. This should show who among them really wants to be an American citizen instead of having the advantage of geography to take advantage of another country's hospitality.

Here's a good read for you Ordie. Immigration ain't free and it certainly isn't beneficial overall to the U.S. and her citizens.....god I love you apologists!


Steven Camarota notes in a Judicial Watch Special Report, New Fronts in the Immigration Battle (http://judicialwatch.org/archive/2006/immigration-special-report.pdf):

"All the research suggests that the reason illegal aliens create large fiscal [deficits] for the country is not their legal status, but rather their educational attainment. Sixty percent of illegals are thought not to have even a high school education, another twenty percent, a high school education only. All the research suggests that people with relatively little education make relatively little money in the modern American economy ...[As] a consequence, they tend to pay relatively little in taxes, even if they are legal and on the books. At the same time, [these individuals] tend to use a fair amount in public services, reflecting their lower incomes. I estimate illegals pay about $16 billion a year to the Federal Government in taxes ... the difference between what they pay in taxes and use in services is about $10 billion. So right now the net drain on the Federal Government alone from illegal families is about $10 billion. If we began to legalize [these individuals] and they began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same level of education, the net fiscal drain would roughly triple to nearly $30 billion."




Read the rest of The Dark Side Of Illegal Immigration

Facts, Figures And Statistics On Illegal Immigration
report here: http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_economic_costs.html

[Ordie]

Neither. I favor straight deportation along with the anchor babies

Go ahead and deport me, (US Citizen ,10 year Naval Veteran with a Master Degree).
When you do come, I will exercise my second amendment.

[Surf City]

Go ahead and deport me, (US Citizen ,10 year Naval Veteran with a Master Degree).
When you do come, I will exercise my second amendment.

Easy tough guy. Now we see where the butthurt comes from.............

[Ordie]

Easy tough guy. Now we see where the butthurt comes from.............

If you takeaway my birthright, I got nothing to lose and nowhere to go.
I would rather die for my country, in my country.

[Surf City]

If you takeaway my birthright, I got nothing to lose and nowhere to go.
I would rather die for my country, in my country.....really?!?:cantbeli:

Oh good god, let's not get all melodramatic....I've enough women in my life over dramatizing issues! We're talking about people who have no loyalty to the U.S. except to take advantage of it's hospitality to help themselves and at the expense of it's law abiding citizens!

So enough crying and threatening to die for your country, no more being an internet warrior and threatening me on an internet forum. If it'll make you feel better, I'll tag you as a friend on Facebook and you can virtually empty a clip at me...........:hug:

BTW, you do realize most things said on these forums are opinions....and yours happens to be in the minority (ain't my fault).

[Ordie]

BTW, you do realize most things said on these forums are opinions....and yours happens to be in the minority .

At least I'm on the right side.

No hard feelings.

[Surf City]

Careful with that right - left stuff.....people might think you've finally jumped off the insane train of the left!

[Panchito12]

QFT, Bush's documented worker program was not a bad idea, but because it was from Bush, it never got off the ground.

X2. Get the same proposal, but put Barry's name at the end and the Dems will fawn and rejoice in admiration.

[Marshall_Nord]

At least I'm on the right side.

In your opinion.

[Dragunov]

A lot of people in the US ask themselves why are people coming into the US illegally, can't they just get a visa like the rest? And here is the thing, they don't know that in Mexico for example in order to get a visa you have to go through a long process, wait years, and must be rich, need to have bank account, properties, etc. These factors is what makes people go into the USA illegally my friends.

Now, ill make it clear, I do not support illegal immigration. Just in case some douche starts talking smack.

[LineDoggie]

A lot of people in the US ask themselves why are people coming into the US illegally, can't they just get a visa like the rest? And here is the thing, they don't know that in Mexico for example in order to get a visa you have to go through a long process, wait years, and must be rich, need to have bank account, properties, etc. These factors is what makes people go into the USA illegally my friends. Is that the Mexican Governments Requirement for a US Visa?
because this is the US requirement:

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1260.html#3

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1266.html

[Ordie]

A lot of people in the US ask themselves why are people coming into the US illegally, can't they just get a visa like the rest? And here is the thing, they don't know that in Mexico for example in order to get a visa you have to go through a long process, wait years, and must be rich, need to have bank account, properties, etc. These factors is what makes people go into the USA illegally my friends.

Now, ill make it clear, I do not support illegal immigration. Just in case some douche starts talking smack.

The issue is not getting in line, but which line to pick. But if you're a Cuban that entered illegally into Mexico and present yourself to the US Customs, you get a free pass into the USA.

Arbitrary quotas and requirements rarely match the actual seasonal labor and service demands of the United States.

[Dragunov]

Is that the Mexican Governments Requirement for a US Visa?
because this is the US requirement:

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1260.html#3

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1266.html

Yes, but there is more to that, man. They do a ''social economical'' study, they check how much you make, what properties you own, etc. in other words, if you are poor is very likely you will be rejected when you go to the US consulate for the interview.

[LineDoggie]

The issue is not getting in line, but which line to pick. But if you're a Cuban that entered illegally into Mexico and present yourself to the US Customs, you get a free pass into the USA.
If you're a Cuban that entered Mexico Illegally you get 2 years in Mexican Prison according to Mexican Law.

[Laworkerbee]

From what I can see, waving foreign flags doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in the US :

These celebrations are just that, celebrations....there is nothing political about the flags being displayed.

Every Mexican American I know gets pissed off when they see that Mexican flag used for political purposes on our streets. I've considered dropping a flag bearer or two but got the better of my emotions, which no doubt these flag wavers are trying to incite.


Yes, but there is more to that, man. They do a ''social economical'' study, they check how much you make, what properties you own, etc. in other words, if you are poor is very likely you will be rejected when you go to the US consulate for the interview.

Quoted for truth.

I know quite a few wealthy Mexicans who have had no problem entering the US, buying property here, etc. Quite a few business people in Tijuana have purchased homes and moved their families over to San Diego.

[brainplay]

A lot of people in the US ask themselves why are people coming into the US illegally, can't they just get a visa like the rest? And here is the thing, they don't know that in Mexico for example in order to get a visa you have to go through a long process, wait years, and must be rich, need to have bank account, properties, etc. These factors is what makes people go into the USA illegally my friends.

Errr....everyone knows why Mexicans come here illegally. That part is not in dispute and is frequently mentioned. I can't fault them for wanting to come to "El Norte" to make some good money. But ironically the heavy amount of illegal immigration that occurs directly impacts the difficulty of gaining a legal visa into the US. And not just for Mexicans either. It's a self defeating prospect.


X2. Get the same proposal, but put Barry's name at the end and the Dems will fawn and rejoice in admiration.

He'll have to fore go the amnesty and jail waiver aspects of it though. That's what killed Bush's bill last time. The amount of resistance from both sides over those issues was pretty intense to the point that many Republicans did a quick 180 with many Democrats supporting them.

[Ordie]

If you're a Cuban that entered Mexico Illegally you get 2 years in Mexican Prison according to Mexican Law.

Then it becomes a race from Yucatan to Brownsville without being caught. I would not be surprised if there was a network of Cuban Americans aiding the flight of Cubans within Mexico.

[LineDoggie]

But you cant prove that, so all your doing is rumor mongering.....

[realityexists]

There is a reason why many hardcore anti-illegal immigration proponents always claim "Illegal" is Illegal and that's the end of the discussion. To their minds they are nothing more than "criminals" who committed a transgression against the law of the land. I have always found this view quite interesting, to know that a person views another human being as nothing more than a criminal and nothing more makes you appreciative that the founding fathers of this great nation did not think in such a fashion.

So what to do with them? Those who simply see them as "illegals" and nothing more (not human, not white) are apt to enforcing the law and kick them out. Yet they like to ignore the fact that the law of the United States also allows for other avenues for restitution (e.g. fines) of crimes, not just "enforcing" the law; the genius of the Constitution also allows for the "forgiveness" of crimes (e.g. Jury nullification, Presidential pardon, etc.)

So for the immigration issue there is amnesty, President Reagan signed it in the late 1980's. And this I see as the best solution. Amnesty is not just simply "we forgive you" for your crimes committed and that's it. Amnesty entails the "pardon" of committing the crime of illegal entry into the country, but immigrants must also pay all back taxes owed, pay a fine, and they also become "legal" taxpayers after obtaining their residency/citizenship. Win Win scenario. This is generally what happened in the 80's. Of course there is an elephant in the room for those opposed to such an avenue: most of today's "illegals" are not white.

Interestingly enough those who claim to be anti-political correctness, soon close their minds when the elephant in the room is presented: this topic is very much a racial issue. This has historically been the case when the topic of immigration is discussed in U.S. history. At one point the Irish, Italians, and Eastern-Europeans were not "white" enough. But this of course changed, however, in the case of "brown Mexicans" the issue is a bit more complicated. $0.02

[brainplay]

There is a reason why many hardcore anti-illegal immigration proponents always claim "Illegal" is Illegal and that's the end of the discussion. To their minds they are nothing more than "criminals" who committed a transgression against the law of the land. I have always found this view quite interesting, to know that a person views another human being as nothing more than a criminal and nothing more makes you appreciative that the founding fathers of this great nation did not think in such a fashion.

This is a strawman. You're trying to make assumptions that everyone who considers illegal aliens and nothing more than criminals while simultaneously ignoring that a crime has occurred.


So what to do with them? Those who simply see them as "illegals" and nothing more (not human, not white) are apt to enforcing the law and kick them out. Yet they like to ignore the fact that the law of the United States also allows for other avenues for restitution (e.g. fines) of crimes, not just "enforcing" the law; the genius of the Constitution also allows for the "forgiveness" of crimes (e.g. Jury nullification, Presidential pardon, etc.)This is a guilt attack and strawman. The fact that you use the phrase "not white" ignores the fact that many non-white Americans oppose this idea while implying racism is a poor name calling tactics. Normally good liberal debaters wait at least until it is the last option before using the race card. The blabbering about "forgiveness" is compounded below.


So for the immigration issue there is amnesty, President Reagan signed it in the late 1980's. And this I see as the best solution. Amnesty is not just simply "we forgive you" for your crimes committed and that's it. Amnesty entails the "pardon" of committing the crime of illegal entry into the country, but immigrants must also pay all back taxes owed, pay a fine, and they also become "legal" taxpayers after obtaining their residency/citizenship. Win Win scenario. This is generally what happened in the 80's. Of course there is an elephant in the room for those opposed to such an avenue: most of today's "illegals" are not white.President Reagan's experiment failed in the long run because the second part never materialized. The border was supposed to have been secured after the amnesty act but never happened. The comprehensive reform never happened so we ended up at square one today. Repeating the gesture without completely sealing off and securing the border nor addressing "sanctuary cities" only repeats the issue but does not address the problem. It's a quick fix that will need to be repeated after another 10yrs.

The fact that you still attribute this solely to racism makes me want to reach through this monitor and choke you to death.


Interestingly enough those who claim to be anti-political correctness, soon close their minds when the elephant in the room is presented: this topic is very much a racial issue. This has historically been the case when the topic of immigration is discussed in U.S. history. At one point the Irish, Italians, and Eastern-Europeans were not "white" enough. But this of course changed, however, in the case of "brown Mexicans" the issue is a bit more complicated. $0.02Yup, we're all racist here. Its a regular Stormfront. :roll:

You sorry son of a bitch. You ignored the entire thread to post this drivel without even trying to address the problems at hand, the implications, nor proper solution except for some feel good hippy crap? :bash:

[LineDoggie]

This is a strawman. You're trying to make assumptions that everyone who considers illegal aliens and nothing more than criminals while simultaneously ignoring that a crime has occurred.

This is a guilt attack and strawman. The fact that you use the phrase "not white" ignores the fact that many non-white Americans oppose this idea while implying racism is a pour name calling tactics. Normally good liberal debaters wait till it is the last option before using the race card. The blabbering about "forgiveness" is compounded below.

President Reagan's experiment failed in the long run because the second part never materialized. The border was supposed to have been secured after the amnesty act but never happened. The comprehensive reform never happened so we ended up at square one today. Repeating the gesture without completely sealing off and securing the border nor addressing "sanctuary cities" only repeats the issue but does not address the problem. It's a quick fix that will need to be repeated after another 10yrs.

The fact that you still attribute this solely to racism makes me want to reach through this monitor and choke you to death.

Yup, we're all racist here. Its a regular Stormfront. :roll:

You sorry son of a bitch. You ignored the entire thread to post this drivel without even trying to address the problems at hand, the implications, nor proper solution except for some feel good hippy crap? :bash:Well said, he indeed is attempting to equate those who dont enjoy, approve, revel in Illegal Immigration into Quasi-Klansman in his pathetic attempt to shut debate by using Guilt, aka Race Card. At what point does one call a spade a spade? a Criminal is a Criminal, they can be any race, any nationality any creed and he advocates an Anarchic way of dealing with a real problem.

[budgie]

I find it hysteric that you're not from the USA or Live here, yet you Presume to tell those of us who are what we think.

First, I said many Americans not all so I am not presuming to tell you what you think. Tell me if I'm wrong, but don't waste your time jumping on me because I am not living in the US. I can read, I look listen and learn and can form opinions. Is it not true that many Americans cringle at the idea of immigrants from poorer countries, particularly Mexico?

We don't live in the dark ages when every villager gots his news from the town crier. We have education and information and communication at our disposal, enough to form opinions or make observations, so don't get all high and mighty about being a US citizen as though nobody else is allowed to comment.

By such logic very few people here would be permitted to run off about Israel, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China or their favorite wars du jour, but they do because they can read and form opinions.


No, you're missing the point. Those folks are LEGAL immigrants who are celebrating their heritage. It's fine when the Mexicans want to do it during their Cinco de Mayo if they're CITIZENS. But showing up and waving a flag demanding rights when they are in the US criminally or are citizens supporting their cause would be like me showing up in Mexico city with a Texas flag and demand they pay for free healthcare and lodging.

We don't like ILLEGAL ALIENS. Don't try to change the word. They're here ILLEGALLY. There is no getting around that part. Many of them aren't even immigrants but rather transients as most will head back home after collecting a nest egg of cash. The fact is that no other immigrant or alien group has the kind of impact that ILLEGAL ALIENS do in the country. Could you imagine how much easier gaining citizenship would be if we didn't have hundreds of thousands crossing the border ILLEGALLY and thus requiring such harsh laws?

Muslim immigrants are free to fly their flags as long as they are CITIZENS. Not ILLEGAL ALIENS. CITIZENS have the right to do so. Many have taken that opportunity to do so. Heck, I wish they would do it more often instead of slinking back and not integrating. Hummus and lamb is good stuff.

Edit: Wait..WTF?! He's not?

While I think it's fair to complain of illegal immigrants in cases where they commit crimes or soak up benefits, many of these people (not all, linedoggie) came to America looking to build a better life for themselves and with the hope their children might someday be citizens and have a better future. They wrok hard, often doing jobs that others can't or won't, frequently for less money because unscrupulous employers don't want to pay American citizens a decent wage. It's a shame they had to slip the border but that's what happens when the club is all snotty about membership - some people get past the doorman. Please remember the US was built on immigration - much of it unregulated. I'm sure original inhabitants of the Americas probably didn't want to lose their country to European settlers either, but then what would I know? I wasn't alive 400 years ago, was I?

[LineDoggie]

SO it's OK not to obey the laws now because of 400 years ago......

[Laworkerbee]

But ironically the heavy amount of illegal immigration that occurs directly impacts the difficulty of gaining a legal visa into the US. And not just for Mexicans either. It's a self defeating prospect.

I'm not so sure. It's in Mexico's best interests to corner the immigrant market so to speak, legal or not.

[LaoSexMachine]

The question is what do they spend with $50.00 and how much is it taxed.

Bus fares account 20% of public transit services.
Sales taxes is roughly 8%
A portion of rent covers the landlords property taxes.

You know what I mean by 'tax free' ie. what's on the W2. Here in Houston they walk, pile 20 deep in a camry, or what I see the most is biking.

[Surf City]

There is a reason why many hardcore anti-illegal immigration proponents always claim "Illegal" is Illegal and that's the end of the discussion. To their minds they are nothing more than "criminals" who committed a transgression against the law of the land. I have always found this view quite interesting, to know that a person views another human being as nothing more than a criminal and nothing more makes you appreciative that the founding fathers of this great nation did not think in such a fashion.

So what to do with them? Those who simply see them as "illegals" and nothing more (not human, not white) are apt to enforcing the law and kick them out. Yet they like to ignore the fact that the law of the United States also allows for other avenues for restitution (e.g. fines) of crimes, not just "enforcing" the law; the genius of the Constitution also allows for the "forgiveness" of crimes (e.g. Jury nullification, Presidential pardon, etc.)

So for the immigration issue there is amnesty, President Reagan signed it in the late 1980's. And this I see as the best solution. Amnesty is not just simply "we forgive you" for your crimes committed and that's it. Amnesty entails the "pardon" of committing the crime of illegal entry into the country, but immigrants must also pay all back taxes owed, pay a fine, and they also become "legal" taxpayers after obtaining their residency/citizenship. Win Win scenario. This is generally what happened in the 80's. Of course there is an elephant in the room for those opposed to such an avenue: most of today's "illegals" are not white.

Interestingly enough those who claim to be anti-political correctness, soon close their minds when the elephant in the room is presented: this topic is very much a racial issue. This has historically been the case when the topic of immigration is discussed in U.S. history. At one point the Irish, Italians, and Eastern-Europeans were not "white" enough. But this of course changed, however, in the case of "brown Mexicans" the issue is a bit more complicated. $0.02

You're an idiot! Has nothing to do with skin color for me. It's about stealing services, not paying taxes, committing crime (then fleeing back across the border to avoid justice) and lowering the education level of the public schools, etc. that piss off most people that I know! I live in Southern California and have to deal with this everyday. So you can take that race card and shove it back up your ass!

P.S. I ain't white either.......

[realityexists]

This is a strawman. You're trying to make assumptions that everyone who considers illegal aliens and nothing more than criminals while simultaneously ignoring that a crime has occurred.I'm assuming that a big part of it is racial, but I am not assuming that "everyone" is racially motivated by the issue. A crime has occurred I agree with you, but there are several ways of "paying" society for that crime. I think the "amnesty" route is one of the best. Especially when you take into consideration that families will be torn apart. Those in favor of some big draconian enforcement, without regard to the human factor, lead me to believe that their motivations are racial in nature. Such individuals would probably welcome another "operation Wetback" a la 1954.

Curiously enough the way border agents located "illegals" was to target the "mexican-looking" people. Of course many American citizens and Native Americans were "deported" too.

Another hint of the racial aspect of it, when you look at person and think "that is an illegal" how do you know? what clues do you look for? I think both you and I know the answer to this, and to say otherwise is silly and beyond childish.

This is a guilt attack and strawman. The fact that you use the phrase "not white" ignores the fact that many non-white Americans oppose this idea while implying racism is a poor name calling tactics. Normally good liberal debaters wait at least until it is the last option before using the race card. The blabbering about "forgiveness" is compounded below. Are you saying "non-white" Americans cannot be racist against other non-Whites??? I am saying they can be :)


President Reagan's experiment failed in the long run because the second part never materialized. The border was supposed to have been secured after the amnesty act but never happened. The comprehensive reform never happened so we ended up at square one today. Repeating the gesture without completely sealing off and securing the border nor addressing "sanctuary cities" only repeats the issue but does not address the problem. It's a quick fix that will need to be repeated after another 10yrs.I agree with your summation of this, and I failed to mention in my earlier post that the second component of such another amnesty will be for the government to do its job and secure the border and reform visa overstays, alas certain political interests still prevent this from happening.


The fact that you still attribute this solely to racism makes me want to reach through this monitor and choke you to death.I don't want to split hairs, but "elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an "obvious truth" that is present in a debate, and this truth of racism is obvious, is it solely the factor of the immigration debate? Of course not, but it is my opinion that it is a big part of it.


Yup, we're all racist here. Its a regular Stormfront. :roll:

You sorry son of a bitch. You ignored the entire thread to post this drivel without even trying to address the problems at hand, the implications, nor proper solution except for some feel good hippy crap? :bash:I gather that pointing out "apparent" logical fallacies is par for the course, then I must "protest" ad-hominem.


Well said, he indeed is attempting to equate those who dont enjoy, approve, revel in Illegal Immigration into Quasi-Klansman in his pathetic attempt to shut debate by using Guilt, aka Race Card. At what point does one call a spade a spade? a Criminal is a Criminal, they can be any race, any nationality any creed and he advocates an Anarchic way of dealing with a real problem.I am not trying to shut the debate at all, but I am introducing something that I see in my opinion ($0.02) as being a big part of the discussion that nobody really tries to talk about. Why? Because it's not politically correct, and people quickly get defensive about it.

I agree with your thought of calling a spade a spade. I call it like I see it, and in this debate both online and offline with people I have observed a very racial aspect to it. It is more apparent offline "in real life."


You're an idiot! Has nothing to do with skin color for me. It's about stealing services, not paying taxes, committing crime (then fleeing back across the border to avoid justice) and lowering the education level of the public schools, etc. that piss off most people that I know! I live in Southern California and have to deal with this everyday. So you can take that race card and shove it back up your ass!

P.S. I ain't white either.......I am glad that is has nothing to do with skin color for you. But of course we all know that "illegals" are thieves, tax-evaders (sales tax doesn't count), violent criminals, fugitives, and their children are unintelligent. (<--sarcasm)

I am not "playing" a race card, but I am saying that race and racial attributions of the group in question are a big part of it. Because if you notice a lot of the things you have just mentioned about "illegals," I have encountered about black Americans (except for the border crossing part) on racist websites and people.

I am not saying that this forum is racist or that "all" the people against illegal immigration commenting on this forum are racist, but in the "overall" debate the topic of race is a big part of it, that I think should be discussed more :)

[Ordie]

It's about stealing services, not paying taxes,.

You're incorrect.

On Taxes:

The IRS created a nine-digit Individual Tax Identification Number in 1996 for foreigners who don’t have Social Security numbers but need to file taxes in the U.S. But it is increasingly used by undocumented workers to file taxes, apply for credit, get bank accounts or even buy a home.
The IRS issued 1.5 million ITINs in 2006 — a 30 percent increase from the previous year. All told, the tax liability of ITIN filers between 1996 and 2003 was $50 billion. The agency has no way to track how many were immigrants, but it’s widely believed most people using ITINS are in the United States illegally.
One number hints at the number of illegal immigrants having income taxes deducted from their paychecks.
In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn’t match a Social Security Number. More than half were from California, Texas, Florida and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants. Even immigrants who use ITINs to file taxes are forced to make up a Social Security Number when they get a job.



On services:


Statewide, immigrants are less likely than the native‐born to have a usual source of health care and they report fewer doctor visits. In Los Angeles County, 25% of immigrants have never had a medical checkup, and 11% have never been to a doctor. Among the native‐born in the county, the respective figures are 13% and 5%. Use rates are even lower among illegal immigrants in the county: 32% have never had a checkup and 17% have never been to a doctor.
Source:http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/jtf/JTF_ImmigrantsHealthJTF.pdf

On Crime


Immigrants, who make up 35 percent of California's adult population, constitute only 17 percent of the state prison population. In fact, U.S.-born men have an incarceration rate up to 3.3 times higher than immigrant men.

The gap between the native-born and immigrants is even wider when using the broader measure of institutionalization – confinement in jails, halfway houses and similar institutions. Among men ages 18 to 40 – the demographic group most likely to be criminally active – U.S.-born men are 10 times more likely than immigrants to be institutionalized.

Of course, illegal immigrants have been a particular source of concern when it comes to public safety. Because of a lack of available data, we cannot focus separately on this group. However, we are able to distinguish between naturalized citizens and noncitizens, and our analysis reveals that illegal immigrants are dramatically underrepresented in the state's prisons and jails. Male noncitizens born in Mexico – a group much more likely than the overall foreign-born population to include illegal immigrants – have much lower rates of institutionalization than the native-born. U.S.-born men have rates more than eight times higher.

[bryanleu2002]

You're incorrect.

On Taxes:


On services:


Source:http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/jtf/JTF_ImmigrantsHealthJTF.pdf

On Crime

O, Ordie! forget that you where ever born here in the USA, forget that you have (government) rights, and admit that the IRS is your GOD!

[Ordie]

O, Ordie! forget that you where ever born here in the USA, forget that you have (government) rights, and admit that the IRS is your GOD!

Without the IRS, we wouldn't have military, interstate highway system, safe drinking water, clean air, national parks, etc.........

[bryanleu2002]

Without the IRS, we wouldn't have military, interstate highway system, safe drinking water, clean air, national parks, etc.........

LOL! you are disturbed,

[realityexists]

To comment on the article, and I think this has been echoed by others. Protesting for "legalization" and waving a foreign flag instead of an American flag is just plain stupid. $0.02

[bryanleu2002]

I am taking down My American Flag, And i will Never fly it again until this country is in its right place! I want safe drinking water, i want clean air, I want National Parks, I want interstate highway systems, and most of all i want the US military to have whatever they want!! GOD BLESS the IRS,,,,

[Ordie]

I am taking down My American Fag,

Freudian slip?

[Holmes85]

This is all going downhill very fast. :roll:

[Universal_Soldier]

If they're so proud of their country, why are they leaving it? What point of they trying to convey by carrying it at a rally?
Finally I agree with Wimbly on something. Mexicans treat illegals like sh!t in their country while they brake the law here and ask to rewarded with citizenship. what an affront!

[bryanleu2002]

Its about whether you are a "boot licker" or not!

[Ordie]

they brake the law here and ask to rewarded with citizenship. what an affront!

No one is asking for citizenship.