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Digital Marine
07-23-2004, 10:50 AM
Hi,
i was wondering if the US kevlar helmet actually stop bullets? from like an AK47? and are there pictures of it being tested?.

Thanks..

Erik_MAA
07-23-2004, 11:26 AM
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but it is potentially verifiable...

In Panama in 1989 I heard a report of an MP from the 555th MP Co (stationed at Ft. Belvior, MD) who was shot in the back of his helmet in a friendly-fire incident. The MP survived, but was briefly knocked unconscious.

There are literally hundreds of reports of the old M1 steel helmet stopping bullets in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, so I would guess the Kevlar is at least as effective.

On the other hand, body armor is "bullet-resistant" and not "bullet-proof" - a friend of mine said he shot a Kevlar with a .357 Magnum and it went right thru both sides.

A lot of factors could affect this - range of the shot fired, caliber of the gun, and angle of impact.

landshark
07-23-2004, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't the impact energy of bullet cause damage even if the bullet were stopped?

king_nothing100
07-23-2004, 11:53 AM
I heard something simular that the kinetic energy transfer from the bullet to your head would snap your neck back, possibly breaking it, dunno if it's true though.

Digital Marine
07-23-2004, 11:59 AM
Didn't that happen to a Marine in Grenada? he survived it i heard?

fokket
07-23-2004, 12:36 PM
good point about the impact

that's what's so good about MICH's BLU pads

FozzieBear
07-23-2004, 12:39 PM
<--- my avatar the story behind it is hes a biritish squaddie serving in iraq and he was shot 4 times in his helmet and survived, his commanding officer phoned his mum to say he had been shot in the head, and she thought he was dead but then he explained what happened :P

Herrmannek
07-23-2004, 12:44 PM
I think PASGT can survive 9mm Para from al directions... and this shouldn't be antyhingh beyond unconciousnes and mild brain shock, stronger rounds if not pierce helmet will give punch strong enough to thrust head fast enough to bounce brain from hit and oposite side of scull inflicting need for instant medical atention/care even if user doesn't show any visible damage to head

Herrmannek
07-23-2004, 12:45 PM
<--- my avatar the story behind it is hes a biritish squaddie serving in iraq and he was shot 4 times in his helmet and survived, his commanding officer phoned his mum to say he had been shot in the head, and she thought he was dead but then he explained what happened :P

Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head :)

Deuterium
07-23-2004, 01:12 PM
A 5.56 will go through both sides quite nicely.

Deuterium
07-23-2004, 01:13 PM
<--- my avatar the story behind it is hes a biritish squaddie serving in iraq and he was shot 4 times in his helmet and survived, his commanding officer phoned his mum to say he had been shot in the head, and she thought he was dead but then he explained what happened :P

ROTFLMAO. Me thinks thou should now change thy AVATAR.

flickme
07-23-2004, 01:26 PM
The point of the helmet is to keep a bullet out of you. So it may stop a bullet but i dont mean you wont suffer different injuries from the shot, but at least you dont have a bullet in your head. And im pretty sure the metal helmets in WW2 could not stop a bullet. Their main purpose was to protect from shrapnel and other dibre. Not bullets.

ShadowNeo
07-23-2004, 01:31 PM
Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head

I don't think it was actually "shot", from what I heard it was shrapnel.

Herrmannek
07-23-2004, 01:33 PM
Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head

I don't think it was actually "shot", from what I heard it was shrapnel.

I can be wrong.. it was discuted long time ago

Deuterium
07-23-2004, 01:37 PM
Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head

I don't think it was actually "shot", from what I heard it was shrapnel.

Bingo...

Herrmannek
07-23-2004, 01:39 PM
Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head

I don't think it was actually "shot", from what I heard it was shrapnel.

Bingo...

But I'm sure it wasn't on head at impact time :) ????

king_nothing100
07-23-2004, 01:53 PM
It wasn't on his head.

Tributal
07-23-2004, 02:34 PM
Regardless if the helmet is able to stop a bullet or not, the main purpose of a helmet is to protect against shrapnel and debris - not bullets.

GrimReaper
07-23-2004, 04:43 PM
End of 2002 one the NCOs in my unit was involved in some action, and was shot in the head by a 7.62 round .
The bullet peneterated straight in the back of the helmet but was diverted in a weird circular pattren around the head leaving just a small scar. It was an Israeli helmet btw

Digital Marine
07-23-2004, 04:50 PM
whow, lucky guy

Sayeret
07-23-2004, 06:30 PM
Probably depends what kind of bullet is fired, the distance it travels, and the type of helmet it hits.

pick187
07-23-2004, 07:35 PM
The helmet was not made to stop a bullet it was made to stop shrapnel, but given the angle it hits it could easly deflect a bullet. I know of a incident where a man was shot in the head with a .357 mag and his skull deflected the bullet.

tuckerhat
07-23-2004, 07:35 PM
Wouldn't the impact energy of bullet cause damage even if the bullet were stopped?

its not about velocity/energy but impulse.

Burncycle
07-24-2004, 02:01 AM
Ok
as mentioned, the helmet is designed to stop fragments and shrapnel, not bullets. I've heard some people say it will stop some pistol rounds.

it will not protect against a direct hit from any assault rifle or full sized rifle round. This being said, it doesn't mean a bullet won't deflect if it hits at the perfect angle.

Hellman109
07-24-2004, 02:22 AM
A helmet isnt meant to be totally bullet proof, it is meant to protect a soldier as much as possible.

Most are made now so that rounds are never going to go straight into the head, they are constructed so they goto one side and skim the head or hit the side, as per the story above, it means the helmet can be much lighter.

the "shot in the head 4 times" story I heard it was used as target practice (kinda like kids throwing rocks at a lilly pad, just guns/helmet), the guy put it on afterwards, a photographer took the picture and it was picked up by someone else and they made the story.

I think though we will all agree with this: your safer with a helmet on your head.

Seraphim
07-24-2004, 03:18 AM
I think in A-stan....a soldier got hit on the helmet and he got knocked out with a concussion.

gilgoul
07-24-2004, 04:32 AM
A PASGT will not stop a ss109 5.56mm at 100 meter, but it might still decrease enough the speed of the round to make it less lethal. I guess.
What I know for sure are two cases.
A guy I knew who served in the UNPROFOR, was shot through his F1 helemt (french), the round penetrated, cut nicely a part of his scalp but didn`t pierce the other side, and apparently saved the guys life by at least changing the flight patern of the bullet.
Second example is that of my platoon comander in reserve. The guy was a CT operator in a special unit.
In operation, he was shot at very close range by a burst of AKM coming from slightly above, received a bullet in the tight, one in the abdomen and one in the arm, but the killer ones didn`t penetrate, one in the helmet (ceramic) and two in the chest where stopped by a ceramic armour.
He still got his medical profile brought down, so ended up with us, the broken arms of Tsahal :D

Burncycle
07-25-2004, 12:45 AM
A PASGT will not stop a ss109 5.56mm at 100 meter, but it might still decrease enough the speed of the round to make it less lethal. I guess.


The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The current production 7.6251mm NATO ball cartridge has remained unchanged since its adoption by NATO in 1953. As typified by the U. S. M80 ball and the Belgian M77 ball, this cartridge propels a 147-grain cu****ickel-jacketed lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps). Total cartridge length and weight are 2.80 inches and 386 grains, respectively. Utilizing a standard 22-inch barrel with a rifling twist of one turn in twelve inches (M14 rifle), the maximum effective range of the 7.6251mm ball cartridge is listed as 620 meters (682 yards). The U. S. M80 and the Belgian M77 ball projectiles can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45 mm (.14 inch) thick steel plate up to a range of 620 meters and can penetrate one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 800 meters (880 yards). In barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 147 grain ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks.

The new SS-109 cartridge propels a heavier 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The improved projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that ensures penetration at longer ranges.

The new projectile can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45mm steel plate up to a range of 640 meters (704 yards) and one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 1,300 meters (1430 yards). In tests of barrier and fortification penetration however, the steel penetrator of the SS-109 could not pierce any of the test building blocks.

These comparisons however, do not consider the fact that the SS-109 uses a semi-armor piercing, steel-cored projectile, while the 7.62mm ball uses a relatively soft antipersonnel, lead-cored projectile. A semi-armor piercing 7.62mm caliber projectile, using second generation technology as the SS-109, would easily outperform the smaller SS-109 projectile in penetration tests at all ranges. With respect to barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 7.62mm ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks, while the SS-109 semi-armor piercing projectile cannot penetrate a single block.

gilgoul
07-25-2004, 06:09 AM
A PASGT will not stop a ss109 5.56mm at 100 meter, but it might still decrease enough the speed of the round to make it less lethal. I guess.


The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The current production 7.6251mm NATO ball cartridge has remained unchanged since its adoption by NATO in 1953. As typified by the U. S. M80 ball and the Belgian M77 ball, this cartridge propels a 147-grain cu****ickel-jacketed lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps). Total cartridge length and weight are 2.80 inches and 386 grains, respectively. Utilizing a standard 22-inch barrel with a rifling twist of one turn in twelve inches (M14 rifle), the maximum effective range of the 7.6251mm ball cartridge is listed as 620 meters (682 yards). The U. S. M80 and the Belgian M77 ball projectiles can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45 mm (.14 inch) thick steel plate up to a range of 620 meters and can penetrate one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 800 meters (880 yards). In barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 147 grain ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks.

The new SS-109 cartridge propels a heavier 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The improved projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that ensures penetration at longer ranges.

The new projectile can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45mm steel plate up to a range of 640 meters (704 yards) and one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 1,300 meters (1430 yards). In tests of barrier and fortification penetration however, the steel penetrator of the SS-109 could not pierce any of the test building blocks.

These comparisons however, do not consider the fact that the SS-109 uses a semi-armor piercing, steel-cored projectile, while the 7.62mm ball uses a relatively soft antipersonnel, lead-cored projectile. A semi-armor piercing 7.62mm caliber projectile, using second generation technology as the SS-109, would easily outperform the smaller SS-109 projectile in penetration tests at all ranges. With respect to barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 7.62mm ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks, while the SS-109 semi-armor piercing projectile cannot penetrate a single block.




I talked about PASGT, wich is composite and not steel plate.
Bullets might go thru even at 400 m, the helemt can still save your life.
And you seem to dislike the ss109, I personaly have no opinion about this munition, just that it is coonsistently more accurate and has better penetration, aven if not the one of 7.62mm, then you have a 7.60mm MG to do the job.

gilgoul
07-25-2004, 06:22 AM
A PASGT will not stop a ss109 5.56mm at 100 meter, but it might still decrease enough the speed of the round to make it less lethal. I guess.


The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The current production 7.6251mm NATO ball cartridge has remained unchanged since its adoption by NATO in 1953. As typified by the U. S. M80 ball and the Belgian M77 ball, this cartridge propels a 147-grain cu****ickel-jacketed lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps). Total cartridge length and weight are 2.80 inches and 386 grains, respectively. Utilizing a standard 22-inch barrel with a rifling twist of one turn in twelve inches (M14 rifle), the maximum effective range of the 7.6251mm ball cartridge is listed as 620 meters (682 yards). The U. S. M80 and the Belgian M77 ball projectiles can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45 mm (.14 inch) thick steel plate up to a range of 620 meters and can penetrate one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 800 meters (880 yards). In barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 147 grain ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks.

The new SS-109 cartridge propels a heavier 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The improved projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that ensures penetration at longer ranges.

The new projectile can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45mm steel plate up to a range of 640 meters (704 yards) and one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 1,300 meters (1430 yards). In tests of barrier and fortification penetration however, the steel penetrator of the SS-109 could not pierce any of the test building blocks.

These comparisons however, do not consider the fact that the SS-109 uses a semi-armor piercing, steel-cored projectile, while the 7.62mm ball uses a relatively soft antipersonnel, lead-cored projectile. A semi-armor piercing 7.62mm caliber projectile, using second generation technology as the SS-109, would easily outperform the smaller SS-109 projectile in penetration tests at all ranges. With respect to barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 7.62mm ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks, while the SS-109 semi-armor piercing projectile cannot penetrate a single block.




I talked about PASGT, wich is composite and not steel plate.
Bullets might go thru even at 400 m, the helemt can still save your life.
And you seem to dislike the ss109, I personaly have no opinion about this munition, just that it is coonsistently more accurate and has better penetration, aven if not the one of 7.62mm, then you have a 7.60mm MG to do the job.

Burncycle
07-26-2004, 03:02 AM
I talked about PASGT, wich is composite and not steel plate.

Understood. The 5.7 x 28 is supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT at 200+ meters if I recall correctly (steel penetrator) and I figure since SS109 is of similar construction, it will likely be able to do that at the very least.

But yeah, no doubt a helmet can save your life


And you seem to dislike the ss109

What makes you say that? :|

gilgoul
07-26-2004, 05:33 AM
I talked about PASGT, wich is composite and not steel plate.

Understood. The 5.7 x 28 is supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT at 200+ meters if I recall correctly (steel penetrator) and I figure since SS109 is of similar construction, it will likely be able to do that at the very least.

But yeah, no doubt a helmet can save your life


And you seem to dislike the ss109

What makes you say that? :|

Hey, let`s keep it cool man :D
As I said sooner, if you want a helmet to stop a bullet even at close range, you need a lot of ceramic, and out of being expesive, it is heavier than the spectrashield or kevlar.
For your supposed "dislike" of the ss109, i read your quote that was not really apologetic of the ss109.
Once again, maybe didn`t I interpret the all thing correctly? :oops:

oldsoak
07-26-2004, 07:26 AM
End of 2002 one the NCOs in my unit was involved in some action, and was shot in the head by a 7.62 round .
The bullet peneterated straight in the back of the helmet but was diverted in a weird circular pattren around the head leaving just a small scar. It was an Israeli helmet btw

We had a similar thing hapen to a guy in Bosnia - the round penetrated the helmet but went around the inside of the helmet. The bloke had a sore head for a few days but otherwise ok. The helmet is now in one of the regimental museums.

Burncycle
07-26-2004, 06:15 PM
For your supposed "dislike" of the ss109, i read your quote that was not really apologetic of the ss109.
Once again, maybe didn`t I interpret the all thing correctly?

The section of text I quoted was not written by me, but by the folks over at ammo-oracle.com. I was trying to illustrate that the SS109 actually penetrates body armor better than current issue 7.62 NATO ball* and while PASGT and steel helmets are not the same, SS109 should be able to penetrate a PASGT helmet easily enough out to it's effective range (400-500m?)

That is not to say a helmet won't help ;)

I wonder if they will come out with a helmet that's level III or IV? I guess weight is the major problem

gilgoul
07-26-2004, 06:42 PM
For your supposed "dislike" of the ss109, i read your quote that was not really apologetic of the ss109.
Once again, maybe didn`t I interpret the all thing correctly?

The section of text I quoted was not written by me, but by the folks over at ammo-oracle.com. I was trying to illustrate that the SS109 actually penetrates body armor better than current issue 7.62 NATO ball* and while PASGT and steel helmets are not the same, SS109 should be able to penetrate a PASGT helmet easily enough out to it's effective range (400-500m?)

That is not to say a helmet won't help ;)

I wonder if they will come out with a helmet that's level III or IV? I guess weight is the major problem

AS I said, this type of helmet exist, but out of being expensive, it is heavy, just like the ceramic body armour that really impairs your movement but increases your chances to survive, it`s always a pro and con game. :D

I definitely did not interpret your post correctly :D , I then have to apologise :D .
For the fun of it, here is my poor self carrying this ceramic body armour

http://img69.exs.cx/img69/291/ceramic01.jpg

You think about a good weight , but mainly about rigidity in your movement, going down the hatch of an APC is basically a pain. :lol:

ArmyRanger
07-27-2004, 01:33 AM
Yea it can stop 9mm and richochet rounds...what it says in the manual.

why the hell dont they just start making the helmet out of that ceramic material they use in the plates in the Interceptor??? only thing that can scratch it is dimonds... too expensive??

gilgoul
07-27-2004, 02:23 AM
Yea it can stop 9mm and richochet rounds...what it says in the manual.

why the hell dont they just start making the helmet out of that ceramic material they use in the plates in the Interceptor??? only thing that can scratch it is dimonds... too expensive??

YEp, too expensive, and HEAVY!!!
So, unless you`ve got a bull`s neck, you basically can`t wear it all the time like you can with the kevlar.
SO unless you re a CT operator, there`s no real interest in wearing a ceramic helmet.

ArmyRanger
07-27-2004, 02:39 AM
With all the new materials coming out.. im sure they will think of somthing.....

like that new objective force warrior helmet should be hooked up

Michael RVR
07-27-2004, 05:53 AM
I thought it was a marine corporal that did the dodgy on the helmet to mess with the media, not a brit ?

FozzieBear
07-27-2004, 06:07 AM
well the sotry from my pic was on our national news and everything and they never said it was faked afterwards... so i'm not sure lol

oldsoak
07-27-2004, 06:15 AM
Nah, it was a RM. A wind up of the press tarts.

Loopster
07-30-2004, 11:24 AM
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/Lookup/2004713233757/$file/2d-Chances_Dessel_Low.jpg



Petty Officer 2nd Class Brian Dessel, a hospital corpsman assigned to Battalion Landing Team 1st Bn., 6th Marines, shows off where a Taliban bullet grazed his helmet while he was treating a wounded Marine. Deployed to Afghanistan with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable), the Pennsylvania native was with BLT 1/6's Combined Anti-Armor Team during several fierce firefights.
Photo by: Gunnery Sgt. Keith A. Milks

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/Lookup/2004713233757?opendocument

Frost
07-30-2004, 06:58 PM
PASGT and steel helmets are designed to stop pistol rounds and richochet rounds. They can't take a direct hit from a rifle.

Note that bodyarmor can't either. The basic interceptor vest is only for pistol rounds and shrapnel. The heavy insert ceramic plates are capable of stopping a rifle bullet, though (even 7.62). But those plates are very heavy and making a ceramic helmet would be very heavy. They do excist though. Russia has both ceramic and titanium helmets if I'm correct. Both are for SF and not for basic grunts.

Note that the PASGT helmet is being phased out because they think it's too heavy(!?) Lighter helmets are now being used like the ones already used by SF. These give you even less protection than the PASGT helmet. The USMC however, is buying a helmet which is both lighter and gives more protection.

But with all the materials around it is indeed a good question if you can't make a helmet which is about the same weight as the PASGT and can really stop a 7.62 at 100m.


Th ranger bodyarmour (old one) uses ceramic plates that are 7.5 lbs. a peice. One such a plate should be enough to make you a helmet, so that would mean you have a helmet of around 7.5 lbs (3.45 kg). Quite heavy if you ask me. Too heavy for a paratrooper.

-Archon-
07-30-2004, 07:36 PM
The standard PASGT helmet achieves V-50 qualification against 1.1g FSP at 600m/s (STANAG) and qualifies the NIJ class II tests (which is generally not capable of stopping a bullet from a rifle (556x45, 762x39 usually needs a class III to stop them) , but this will have a lot with angle of attack/incidence of the bullet.

However there are several manufacturers that manufacture helmets that are better than the standard PASGT helmet, offering a NIJ Class IIIA protection (which is still not enough to stop a rifle bullet, in general that is) and V50 against fragments at 700m/s+

There are also helmets which accept inserts to offer a NIJ Class III or even Class IV. They will be a bit heavier then though.

Sources:
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/personal/global_armour/
http://www.rbrtactical.com/
*there are several more manufacturers out there*

Official Docs:
www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/jr000249e.pdf
http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/0101.04RevA.pdf

walford
11-24-2004, 05:27 PM
... I heard a report of an MP from the 555th MP Co (stationed at Ft. Belvior, MD)
Correction...FT. Belvior is in VA [lived there for 5 years as a mil dependent]
555th MP (http://www.militarypolice.com/units/555.htm) is in FT. Lee VA

Uncle Sam
11-24-2004, 06:27 PM
I split my K-Pot from the back to the top on a jump, yes, split it. We did a jump, it was really really windy, I landed on a paved runway backwards...Feet then head...Split the K-Pot.

If I did that on a jump, just imagine what a high powered bullet could do.

ArmedPacifist
11-24-2004, 06:58 PM
On the CF helmet there are key deflection points for the 5.56mm, and that if it hits from an angle that is not direct, the corners for example, there is a good chance the bullet will not go through, but if it hits in the direct front center or side, there is a high probability it will go through. With the 7.62 you have no hope of your helmet stopping the bullet, it's going through regardless. But as history can testify, anything can happen in the battlefield.

I may have the deflection theory in reverse, I can't remember.

Also, even if the bullet is stopped by the helmet, there is a high chance your neck will be snapped, which is why a lot of the more experienced combat troops don't do up their chinstraps on the helmet, it's harder to keep the helmet on, but it may just save your neck.

Digital Marine
11-25-2004, 09:20 AM
I split my K-Pot from the back to the top on a jump, yes, split it. We did a jump, it was really really windy, I landed on a paved runway backwards...Feet then head...Split the K-Pot.

If I did that on a jump, just imagine what a high powered bullet could do.

Whow! never expected that that could happen! :|

Storm_Trooper
11-25-2004, 11:29 AM
I talked about PASGT, wich is composite and not steel plate.

Understood. The 5.7 x 28 is supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT at 200+ meters if I recall correctly (steel penetrator) and I figure since SS109 is of similar construction, it will likely be able to do that at the very least.

But yeah, no doubt a helmet can save your life


And you seem to dislike the ss109

What makes you say that? :|

It's a MYTH, bad propaganda for the 5.7, it doesn't penetrate PASGT at 200+meters.
The .223 and the .308 have beter penetration power (even the 7.62 ComBloc has a better penetration power).
You must understand the P90 as a new version of SMGs and not as a ssuper rifle.
I've nothing against P90 (it was my main weapon for 4 years), it's a damn good weapon, very reliable, very accurate, and low recoil (2/3 of a 9mmLuger).
But stop fantasizing about the ultimate armour piercing weapon

n.ignomo
11-25-2004, 11:38 AM
A bullet from a famas goes through any helmet at 300m (almost the same in yrds)

grabie_bis
11-25-2004, 01:58 PM
spanish MARTE mod.3 (1993). in Bosnia stopped a 7,62 bullet at 200m, it only pierced 60% of its kevlar layers.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwDzAjcUebGLbu4CZQMIgQ3SvhD9H2*IVCpffjj*As3dcHnFzI5s44yWxHgEtSQ2b*r3VvwxuHKiC!LbZ2Qf4Nl2v8H*FVpRTq4iTC1liAM/marte.jpg?dc=4675467359067597299

anonymous individual
11-25-2004, 02:30 PM
wow I really like your avatar since I know where it is from.

usm2b
11-25-2004, 05:25 PM
Bullet-proof helmet saves marine


Marine Walderman was fighting Iraqi forces in Umm Qsar
A Royal Marine has revealed how he escaped death by an inch after taking four head shots in his helmet.
Royal Marine Commando Eric Walderman's life was saved by his tough Kevlar helmet after he was fired on by Iraqi forces in the port of Umm Qsar.

The 25-year-old, of Fleetwood, Lancashire, would probably have died if the bullets had hit him just one inch lower.

His mother Brenda, 47, said on Wednesday: "I'm shocked. I just want him home."

Marine Walderman joined the marines three years ago and was awarded the Commando Medal for being an outstanding recruit.

He is part of the 40 Commando's Alpha Company, based at Taunton, Somerset.

'Devastating news'

The former welder lives with girlfriend Lindsey - a hotel receptionist in Blackpool - and their two-year-old son Danny.

His mother added: "We have just had some news from Eric this morning (Wednesday).

"Three of his colleagues were seriously burnt and have been flown home.

"One of them telephoned Lindsey with a message.

"He said Eric had asked him to phone her just to tell her he is fine and missing her.

"I'm just happy but a bit devastated by this news. I want him to come home now."

The Kevlar helmets are 25% to 40% more resistant to projectiles than their steel predecessors of equal weight, according to its manufacturer DuPont.

The light plastic-based material was developed in the mid-1960s and, under water, it is 20 times stronger than steel.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2890081.stm

I know he's got a british helmet, but it says KEVLAR! :)

KB
11-25-2004, 06:51 PM
RE the inquiry about the incident in Grenada, at least one guy was hit in the K-pot by a 7.62x39 round from an AK-47, which didn't penetrate. US Marines hadn't been issued K-Pots in October 83; the lucky individual was from the 3rd Bde, 82nd Abn.

kingfish
11-25-2004, 11:37 PM
<--- my avatar the story behind it is hes a biritish squaddie serving in iraq and he was shot 4 times in his helmet and survived, his commanding officer phoned his mum to say he had been shot in the head, and she thought he was dead but then he explained what happened :P

Story was faked, there are dteailed explanations of that case on the forum, still interesting even helmet was shot on ground not on head :)

The story was fake, but his helmet really was hit (without his head in it) by rifle fire and would have protected him.

kingfish
11-25-2004, 11:50 PM
I happen to collect US helmets, I have several PASGT helmets and I can tell you that they originally came on the scene in '83 ish in Grenada. The pres quickly bean to tear them up saying the US troops looked like nazi stormtroopers. But the critisism ended when a guy was shot with a 7.62x39 AK bullet at 30yds and the helmet stopped the bullet.

The older brain bucket would not stop rifle fire (unless you were well beyond the effective range). I have one sitting on my desk from 1944 Belgium which proves it. Lets not forget that back then, rifle calibers were big and powerful (8mm mauser, 303, 30-06) and the helmet technology was ancient (the opposite of today). The M1 helmet could stop pistol ammo, but not from up close.

Lazy Lob
11-26-2004, 05:48 AM
First of all infantry helmets are a compromise. They are not meant to stop assault rifle ammo. These go straight through.

The British MK6 is not kevlar. It is ballistic nylon. It does not stop the majority of ammo.

WWII tin pots never stopped bullets. Maybe dented from a very, VERY shallow trajectory.

LBA international offer their composite helmets in different ballistic weights. The best ballistic helmets are the range of Russian titanium helmets. This are made of thick titanium sheet. Take into account that one of these, the Sphera, comes in two versions. Steel or titanium.

As for neck injuries. Its depends on helmet weight, ammo type, velocity, trajectory and liner type.

GazB
11-26-2004, 08:23 PM
The basic interceptor vest is only for pistol rounds and shrapnel. The heavy insert ceramic plates are capable of stopping a rifle bullet, though (even 7.62). But those plates are very heavy and making a ceramic helmet would be very heavy. They do excist though. Russia has both ceramic and titanium helmets if I'm correct. Both are for SF and not for basic grunts.



Everyone who makes helmets have different models for different uses. The grunt in the field doesn't want neck strain from too heavy a helmet, but a guy who is going into a hostage situation with lots of well armed fanatics might want a bit of extra protection.


I split my K-Pot from the back to the top on a jump, yes, split it. We did a jump, it was really really windy, I landed on a paved runway backwards...Feet then head...Split the K-Pot.

If I did that on a jump, just imagine what a high powered bullet could do.

Sorry uncle sam but you can't just compare things like that. Many think that just because body armour will stop a bullet then it must surely stop a knife as well, but there are very different forces involved. Body armour has to be specifically designed to stop a knife attack as well as high velocity fragments as well to be effective against both. A good example is the puny little 5.45 x 18mm bullet in the PSM pistol. This bullet has slightly less kinetic power than a .22lr, but at 10 metres will penetrate reliably 32 layers of kevlar. It is a barely supersonic round that doesn't seem to have any spectacular design features... it just seems that kevlar is not particularly good at stopping pointed projectiles at that velocity in that size.

Regarding the helmet, as has been said by others for most grunts it is needed for stopping fragments as well as bumps etc. Many will stop pistol bullets simply because pistol bullets generally use round nose tips that are poor penetrators and at barely supersonic speeds have little kinetic power. (Remember a modern helmet is about the same weight as a pistol... if the bullet doesn't penetrate your helmet then it is like the whole helmet is acting as another pistol receiving the bullet... sort of the opposite of firing it... if the pistol doesn't rip your hand off of break your wrist when you fire a bullet why would it do either to your neck... which is rather more heavily muscled). Of course the fact that you are not expecting the impact means that if your have already turned your head the extra energy of an impact at the right angle might do some damage, but the only occurances of neck injuries were with the old wide metal helmets and that was not because of bullet impact normally, but with the shock wave of blasts... either from mines, artillery, or aerial bombs. For this reason some of the wider metal helmets were generally worn with the strap undone to prevent neck injury.

Damian
11-27-2004, 06:50 PM
very interesting discussion :D

walford
11-27-2004, 07:26 PM
...but can you boil potatoes (http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/american/american_wwii_helmet.html) in it?

Steel21
11-27-2004, 11:39 PM
No, but where would I get patatoes? :lol:

Walford, as you can see, im transitioning into my casual/humorous phase, please disregard some of my comments are mear humor, hope you get a laugh outta it.

walford
11-27-2004, 11:46 PM
im transitioning into my casual/humorous phaseThen click here (http://www.fat-pie.com/salad2.htm).

Kilgor
11-30-2004, 05:05 AM
I think in ww2 especially, alot of deaths were from artillery and shrapnell fire and from the vile conditions of the battlefield and wounds to the head would turn out quite nasty.

Seraphim
12-05-2004, 11:03 PM
Oops