NATO rejects Russian call for Afghan poppy spraying

[MainLord]

http://www.*******.com/article/idUSTRE62N54520100324

NATO on Wednesday rejected Russian calls for it to eradicate opium poppy fields in Afghanistan, saying the best way for Moscow to help control the drug would be to give more assistance against the insurgency.:roll:

Appathurai said NATO understood Russian concerns, given its estimated 200,000 heroin and morphine addicts and the tens of thousands dying each year.

But NATO spokesman James Appathurai said the drug problem had to be handled carefully to avoid alienating local people. He said the alliance was continuing efforts to target drug lords and drug labs, but added at a news briefing:
"We cannot be in a situation where we remove the only source of income of people who live in the second poorest country in the world without being able to provide them with an alternative.":cantbeli:

[pocoloco]

I think good alternative for poppy growers would be growing food for themselves, their families and they could even sell their products on local markets. That advice I have given for free, no need to thank me.

Poppy fields could be sprayed or rather bombed with napalm, good riddance.

[Alex G]

Ye, we cannot remove the only source of income of drug dealers. If they start to do legal work, they will complain that they earn less money than with drugs. Great logic, isn't it?

[my name again]

Russia should bomb these fields by themselves.

[themacedonian]

Appathurai said NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen had asked Russia for increased support in Afghanistan, including in training counter-narcotics officials and helicopters for the overall counter-insurgency effort.

So what would these counter narcotics officials do since they can not eradicate the crop? Find alternative jobs for the growers?

NATO is saying that the best way to fight it is to fight the insurgency but these insurgents (Taliban) were the ones that eradicated the poppy fields. 8 years later with NATO production is growing and has reached new records.

[Brasi]

James Appathurai is an idiot. So we sell out the Russians with all their morphine addicts and thousands dead each year, not to mention how much of the crap makes it to American shores, or the fact a good percentage probably goes to fund taliban weapon purchases. Makes sense to me.

[Konst]

Appathurai said NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen had asked Russia for increased support in Afghanistan, including in training counter-narcotics officials and helicopters for the overall counter-insurgency effort.

So what would these counter narcotics officials do since they can not eradicate the crop? Find alternative jobs for the growers?

NATO is saying that the best way to fight it is to fight the insurgency but these insurgents (Taliban) were the ones that eradicated the poppy fields. 8 years later with NATO production is growing and has reached new records.
This is business. Big business.

[UltimaRatio]

I think good alternative for poppy growers would be growing food for themselves, their families and they could even sell their products on local markets. That advice I have given for free, no need to thank me.

You're a genius. They should call it the Alternative Livelihoods Programme... oh wait.

[Brasi]

The Southern part of Afghanistan is the worst growing area by far. Doing a quick google check shows the farmers can grow watermelons, wheat and corn as an alternative. The "we need to grow poppy to feed our families." BS doesn't hold water.

[pocoloco]

You're a genius. They should call it the Alternative Livelihoods Programme... oh wait.

Thank you, thank you. You can share the Nobel prize money with me.

So, what's the point for ALP if the people are not, in this case, forced to start following it? Not that many are willing to change from big profit to small profit freely in this case I guess.

[Russianlynxy]

Oh and we fell sorry for the poor Afghans... poor people who can't read and the majority have never actually worked in their lives. The average daily routine consists of growing poppies and blowing heroin all day... because they have no other ways to earn money. This logic is so ridiculous I can't even explain. It's like saying that the low income, high school dropout, lowlife drug-dealers and thugs on the streets in the ghettos of New York have no other ways to earn a living, so we should in fact protect their right to do what they do otherwise we might make them angry and face a rise in NY crime-rates.

Napalm that sh*t. Afghanistan has no hope of ever becoming a civilized nation, not in a couple hundred years at least. So at least what can be done is a shutoff of their main source of income. Remember - the heroin converts to money which later converts to weapons to kill young men and women in Afghanistan, Israel, and Chechnya!

[Robert.V]

Russia should reject them their supply Route.

[creativeUsername]

Its not only Russians, thousands of other Europeans and Americans die from this. Also maybe if the farmers need to feed their families they could try growing food instead of poppys? It just might be crazy enough to work.

[Tank34]

Russia should bomb these fields by themselves.
This is impossible while NATO troops in Afghanistan. While NATO there we can only put pressure on NATO, nothing more.


James Appathurai is an idiot. So we sell out the Russians with all their morphine addicts and thousands dead each year, not to mention how much of the crap makes it to American shores, or the fact a good percentage probably goes to fund taliban weapon purchases. Makes sense to me.
And what percentage probably goes to fund Karzai goverment and his military? Taliban not only one drug producer in Afghanistan(and i do not think that main one).

[Robert.V]

This is impossible while NATO troops in Afghanistan. While NATO there we can only put pressure on NATO, nothing more.


Why is it impossible, as long as they won't injure any NATO personal ..there shouldn't be any problem.

and it wouldn't be such a bad PR move ..the western media wouldn't bitch on account of drugs being bad mmmkay. and this would further more send a message to countries around russia not to **** with them.

[Tank34]

Why is it impossible, as long as they won't injure any NATO personal ..there shouldn't be any problem.

and it wouldn't be such a bad PR move ..the western media wouldn't bitch on account of drugs being bad mmmkay. and this would further more send a message to countries around russia not to **** with them.
Because Afghanistan is independent state with protection of NATO. It is impossible without approval of NATO. And NATO would never agree on such thing.

Western media would start crying again about Ze Evil Russian empire which eat childrens at breakfast even if there would be only talibs. Poor freedom fighters which only want to grow some grain to feed they children while people eating Russian hordes try to genocide them. Red menace and other such bs as usual.
But despite all this, such scenario can be possible if there would not be NATO troops. With NATO troops we can do nothing.

[Russianlynxy]

Because Afghanistan is independent state with protection of NATO. It is impossible without approval of NATO. And NATO would never agree on such thing.

Western media would start crying again about Ze Evil Russian empire which eat childrens at breakfast even if there would be only talibs. Poor freedom fighters which only want to grow some grain to feed they children while people eating Russian hordes try to genocide them. Red menace and other such bs as usual.
But despite all this, such scenario can be possible if there would not be NATO troops. With NATO troops we can do nothing.

Not really.

Heroin is a huge source of income in Afghanistan. Money always has men with interests behind it. So clearly it is in someone's interest to make sure the heroin cash flows freely, whether it's Karzai corrupt government or Talib connection.

who's paying for it? Indirectly - people in Russia and Europe affected by drugs. Directly - ISAF soldiers who are dying in Afghanistan by weapons bought through heroin money.

Havent we learned before that some people always find a way to make big cash during times of war?

[Robert.V]

Because Afghanistan is independent state with protection of NATO. It is impossible without approval of NATO. And NATO would never agree on such thing.

Western media would start crying again about Ze Evil Russian empire which eat childrens at breakfast even if there would be only talibs. Poor freedom fighters which only want to grow some grain to feed they children while people eating Russian hordes try to genocide them. Red menace and other such bs as usual.
But despite all this, such scenario can be possible if there would not be NATO troops. With NATO troops we can do nothing.

So ? I don't see the problem, Afghanistan isn't part of NATO, hell it's country that's been invaded by NATO and still at war at for **** sakes. So unless NATO personel gets killed i don't see why not.


Hell at least Russia has heck of a lot better reason to bomb the **** out of Afghmistam then NATO had.



Nor i don't see it as a bad PR move.

[Alex G]

Because Afghanistan is independent state with protection of NATO. It is impossible without approval of NATO. And NATO would never agree on such thing.



Actually, if Afghanistan is indeed an independent state, Russia would need only approval of its government, not from NATO.

[themacedonian]

But but but ........ look look look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Colombia

The term Plan Colombia is most often used to refer to U.S. legislation aimed at curbing drug smuggling and combatting a left-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing) insurgency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency) by supporting different activities in Colombia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Colombia#cite_note-HF-0)

Another controversial element of the anti-narcotic strategy is aerial fumigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumigation) to eradicate coca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca_eradication). This activity has come under fire because it damages legal crops and has adverse health effects upon those exposed to the herbicides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicide).

As we can see there is hypocrisy on the part of the Americans.

Russia should bear more force in Afghanistan and even use special forces if they are serious about the issue and sooner or later NATO would have to come on board. (Unless it is a standing plan by NATO to allow the supply of drugs into Russia to cause social problems).

[armored_diplomacy]

Russia should follow US example: if there´s a threat to its security, preventive strike. p-)
"You are either with the drug producers, or against them"
And if all this is going on right under NATO noses, well, that´s either becasue they are not capable nor willing to do something.
Otherwise, and as The Macedonian pointed above, we are before a huge case of hypocrisy.

[ChiefWiggum]

Its just a matter of politics.

The Americans support crop eradication in South America because there are no American soldiers being killed regularly over there as a result of that backwards policy. Its the local forces that deal with the anger of the local peasantry.

The situation isn't so in Afghanistan with more and more American soldiers being sent there.



The smartest thing to do would be to buy the poppy harvest from the farmers at an above market rate and just burn it.

[Flamming_Python]

Russia should cut a deal directly with the Afghan farmers and Afghan government - NATO here is irrelevant.

[Russianlynxy]

Russia should cut a deal directly with the Afghan farmers and Afghan government - NATO here is irrelevant.

Unrealistic. What could Russia possibly offer Afghanistan. Also it's not like their main target is the Russian drug market anyway. The junk makes it's way through Central Asia first then leaks into Russia through Kazakhstan. In any case I'm sure Karzai government is balls-deep in this business anyway.

[Mr.K]

Russia should cut a deal directly with the Afghan farmers and Afghan government - NATO here is irrelevant.

What government?
Besides if NATO does something about opium, all guns in Afghanistan will be pointed and shot at NATO soldiers. Opium is a bargain chip to bring "peace and stability"

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

The junk makes it's way through Central Asia first then leaks into Russia through Kazakhstan. In any case I'm sure Karzai government is balls-deep in this business anyway.

We have a winner!

The claim that Ahmed Wali Karzai has been on the payroll of the CIA for the past eight years, as reported in the New York Times on Tuesday, won't come as a surprise to most Afghans, who have long considered his brother, Afghan President Hamid Karzai, to be an American puppet. The revamped allegations that Karzai frère is deeply involved in Afghanistan's annual $4 billion drug industry isn't much of a shocker either — on the streets of Kabul and Kandahar, the name Wali has long been synonymous with someone who can get away with a crime because he has friends in the right places.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1932862,00.html

[themacedonian]

excellent article from Time. So Wali is on CIA payroll and Wali is involved in the drug business. Is it too much controversial if one suggests that CIA is involved in the drug business? Why would Wali be on anyones payroll if he is into drug business and has the countries president as a brother? Or he is just the buffer between the drugs and CIA?

[Afro-European]

NATO not cooperating sufficiently with Russia - CSTO head

DUSHANBE, March 27 (RIA Novosti)
NATO is not sufficiently cooperating with Russia in tackling the Afghan drug threat, the head of the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) said on Saturday.
"The fight against drugs in Afghanistan and [drug] traffic is not being carried out the way the situation demands, likewise there is no planned and coordinated work against the Taliban movement," Nilolai Bordyuzha said during a round-table conference in the Tajik capital, Dushanbe, on collective security in Central Asia.
"We (CSTO leadership) have repeatedly told NATO: let's tackle this problem together because this is not a regional but a global threat," he complained, saying that NATO has so far been reluctant to do so.
Bordyuzha said the sooner NATO starts full cooperation with Russia, "the sooner ... we will set up an effective scheme to combat Afghan drug trafficking."
The CSTO also includes Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. Russia's security strategy until 2020 envisions the CSTO as "a key mechanism to counter regional military challenges and threats."
Bordyuzha said that while the lack of Russia-NATO cooperation has also created risks for Afghanistan's neighbors in Central Asia as the Taliban may mover further north, the CSTO would be ready for "such a course of events," as the CSTO could handle a military conflict.
Russia's drug control chief Viktor Ivanov said last week that Russia would boost its drug control mission staff in Afghanistan as "the drug situation in Russia is rather difficult, and needs fast decisions, both in Russia and within the framework of international cooperation."
Afghan drug production increased dramatically after the U.S.-led invasion that toppled the Taliban in 2001, and Russia has been one of the most affected countries, with heroin consumption rising steeply. An estimated 90% of heroin consumed in Russia is trafficked from Afghanistan via Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

[Mastermind]

Ah, yes...the Afghan poppy trade that is so vividly protected by the US and allies there....would not want to put these poor farmers out of a cash crop. Of all things in the Afghan war, this is the one thing that pisses me off most. US and allied soldiers getting killed becasue we are too stupid to put a sudden halt to the open drug business there...God!

I so want the US out of this crap...it has lost all credibility and focus.

[LineDoggie]

Russia should reject them their supply Route.
Yes that would be BRILLIANT Bob, in fact we should pull out of Afghanistan now and leave a Radical Fundi Islamist state with Poppies unfettered access to Russia by caravaning it through Uzbekistan and a more convenient route.

[kevlar308]

I think good alternative for poppy growers would be growing food for themselves, their families and they could even sell their products on local markets. That advice I have given for free, no need to thank me.

Poppy fields could be sprayed or rather bombed with napalm, good riddance.

100,000+ hectares of opium poppy in Helmand province alone, we don't have that much napalm. p-)

[AlexMartin2]

I'm not sure I understand. Poppy fields are harmless by themselves. People sell poppy to drug producers, and then they make heroin in laboratories.
Is farmers sell poppy openly? If so, it would be relatively easy to find these drug producers and their labs in Astan territory and destroy them.
Especially as we heard from media that Taliban gaining money from drugs to fight coalition, it means that drugs is coalition problem also!

If NATO, who controlling most of Astan territory, dont do it, then it is equivalent to helping produce drugs, no less. NATO should seriously check its stategy in Astan, or someday they will be accused directly in drug trafficing. All this "War on Terror" thing will be completely spoiled. You cant fight one evil and promote another.

[sepheronx]

Heck, this is big business opportunity for Russia.

They could move industries there, to teach and help farmer grow the appropriate stuff for consumption, rather then drugs. So not only does Russia get a hand into Afghanistans agriculture business (which can be very profiting), it can also open up industries to make different dishes out of these foods.

And in the end, the farmers get payed, and can feed their families.

[sgt_G]

Heck, this is big business opportunity for Russia.

They could move industries there, to teach and help farmer grow the appropriate stuff for consumption, rather then drugs. So not only does Russia get a hand into Afghanistans agriculture business (which can be very profiting), it can also open up industries to make different dishes out of these foods.

And in the end, the farmers get payed, and can feed their families.

Didn't Russia try this back in the 79 war?

[sepheronx]

Didn't Russia try this back in the 79 war?

Well, possibly. But after the soviets left, there facilities left over that pretty much accounted for 60% of Afghanistans GDP. Things like chemical plants, oil pipelines, etc. A lot of them are destroyed now, and just means opportunity. At least this time, it isn't the Russian's going in for the kill.

[asch]

heard of the Karzai brother who very much involved into heroin business. wonder, is it true?

[Universal_Soldier]

heard of the Karzai brother who very much involved into heroin business. wonder, is it true? very true. heard from multiple sources.

[Elbs]

I remember reading an article posted here on MP.net about the British being successful in getting some Afghans to turn to planting different crops. I also saw a few photoarticles with Lithuanian agricultural experts sent by NATO showing farmers different crops. Again, this is a process that will take time and a lot of energy. With a full fledged war going on, it's obvious that trying to get the local population to your side takes priority.

[nui]

Coming back to Vancouver B.C.'s downtown lower east side after years abroad I found nothing has changed. They couldn't even begin to remove the junkie problem from site for the Winter Olympics that just passed.

If you ever come to Vancouver, make your way to the intersection of Main St. and Hastings St., to view what is probably the worst drug ghetto in the world. It all comes from Afghanistan.

Scorch the earth over there, it's soldiers lives there fighting the good fight for a short-term battle, or civilians lives here in an unending drain on society and lives. There is no way back for a lot of people once they have tried smack.

Too bad our limp-wristed gov. is going to withdraw our forces before a truly effective play can be made over there.

[Russianlynxy]

IMO, eradicating the primary component of the underground terrorist economy is the most useful thing NATO can do in Afghanistan. Forget nation building... Britain, the USSR have all tried civilizing that place and left with nothing but ruins and savages.

Instead the US and ISAF need to focus oh how Afghan lawlessness and instability impacts the rest of the world. These poppy fields are spilling American, British, Canadian, and everyone else who's currently in Afghan blood.

[kevlar308]

While heroin is about as bad as it comes, keep in mind, the second there is no more heroin in the west, all the junkies will just become tweakers. And the problem will be home made crank instead of Afghan heroin. And while the poppy growers make more money than they would growing wheat or potatoes, they only get a fraction of a penny for what the real drug smugglers and kingpins make.
War against drugs = 30 years of abject failure.
If they want to lessen the amount of drugs entering their country, perhaps Russia should increase funding border patrols and customs by curtailing their flying of bombers all over the world to show off.
Just a suggestion.

[Alex G]

While heroin is about as bad as it comes, keep in mind, the second there is no more heroin in the west, all the junkies will just become tweakers. And the problem will be home made crank instead of Afghan heroin. And while the poppy growers make more money than they would growing wheat or potatoes, they only get a fraction of a penny for what the real drug smugglers and kingpins make.
War against drugs = 30 years of abject failure.
If they want to lessen the amount of drugs entering their country, perhaps Russia should increase funding border patrols and customs by curtailing their flying of bombers all over the world to show off.
Just a suggestion.

It doesnt help US that much huh? And by sealing borders off and ignoring lands of production and transit you now have a pretty nasty situation in Mexico. And dont forget that money, that comes from sintesyzed drugs mostly doesnt flow to someone who will buy weapons to kill you or blow you up. Its used for more classic criminal activities, not terrorism. So ye, I would prefer that drugs will be produced in labs inside own border, since it lesser evil.

[oregongrunt]

Now that's what I'm talking about!

[Zvezda]

If they want to lessen the amount of drugs entering their country, perhaps Russia should increase funding border patrols and customs by curtailing their flying of bombers all over the world to show off.
Just a suggestion. How successful has the US been at keeping drugs and illegals from crossing the boarder into the US? Okay now lets say the boarder with mexico was three times the size it is now, How much harder would it be?

[pr8te]

Its just a matter of politics.

The smartest thing to do would be to buy the poppy harvest from the farmers at an above market rate and just burn it.

That is my immediate reaction as well, given what a small percent of the street price the growers actually get.

But two factors come into mind:

If the "alliance" began to buy the raw opium, how far would they be willing to match increasing offers from the drug manufacturers?

In reality, would such expenditure more than match the economic gains provided by a restricted opium/morphine/heroin supply? Fewer junkies, less crime, a more productive population especially around Russia and Europe. Would the economic equation balance?

Or would the supply centre simply shift to South-East Asia?

...

My guess is that subsidising the opium farmers and redirecting them to more useful crops with modern technology might be more profitable in the long run. But it is just a guess.

I very much doubt that the level of such subsidies would be anywhere near those received by American and European farmers, although I must add that I don't know what economic benefits those particular "gifts" deliver in comparison.

If anyone has any reliable numbers relevant to this issue, I'd be very interested to read them.

[Kiiski]

Not having personal experience on this wonderful country I am not in a position to give very strong advice on the matter.
However, having seen the comments on this forum, here's a couple of thoughts:

- Traditional wisdom in COIN warfare dictates that to defeat the insurgents, you have to convince the population that they are better off with your people than with the opposition. At the moment the opium trade is vital to the people living in southern Afghanistan. The ISAF and other allied forces are fighting a war with an area of operations of the surface area of a few US states. They are doing this with a relatively small amount of troops. The unwillingness of the ISAF to act decisively on the opium trade should be seen against this background.
- The number of deaths caused by opiates from Afghanistan is likely to be far greater than the number of soldiers killed in action in Afghanistan during the last decade. In the big picture one might think that something should be done even in the conditions stated above
- Sealing the countries borders is not possible
- Many parties in the Afghani conflict benefit from the trade, some of them closely allied to US and ISAF. If direct action against the trade would commence, the Taliban might actually benefit from it, at least in the short term
- The opium production if Afghanistan was at a relatively low level just before the US-led invasion. I suppose that the Taliban was in a position to ban the trade because their own 'silos' happened to be full at the time

[Kiiski]

If the "alliance" began to buy the raw opium, how far would they be willing to match increasing offers from the drug manufacturers?


I have also thought of this. The farmers are getting so little of the money that they might be happy with the arrangement.
But you would still upset the people who matter: the local warlords and other peole who DO get major income from the trade.

It has been proposed that the opium could be traded for legal purposes.
To my understanding the pharmaceutical industry does not have much use for naturally cultivated opium. Prescription drugs are mostly synthetic nowadays.

[Dercius]

Double standards and hipocrisy at its best. Poor Panamenians who died during the intervention back in 1989, why did US intervene then??? At the end, Noriega was only laundring drug money and allowing drug traffickers to smuggle coca northwards accross Panama, not growing it himself.

Its good for everyone to think a little bit, IMO related to drug production, we are doing the wrong thing in Afghanistan, tactically and morally.

[igorvasilevsky]

Good documentary, released by one of the main TV channel in Russia, which probably first time ever saying clear: americans and NATO are in Afghanistan for drug production, which they are using against Russia and Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/v/0NBX-4KeGHI

http://www.youtube.com/v/YcLOLEWgyf0

http://www.youtube.com/v/r6STdP9W8xg

http://www.youtube.com/v/-4BXQIhDds8

http://www.youtube.com/v/KX2t7OyPVtM

[igorvasilevsky]

And one more awesome video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/zqhSnq7wdUo

[b0sco]

americans and NATO are in Afghanistan for drug production, which they are using against Russia and Europe.


http://i40.tinypic.com/2q30ya8.jpg

..........

[oregongrunt]

You are right, just more warmed-over 1960s COIN operations.