Question for our IDF guys on nco/low ranking officers

[seraosha]

A buddy of mine has a brother in law that is German and told my buddy he spent 8 years in the IDF as a kind of "contract NCO" saying that the IDF's draft system has a continual lower rank exchange, with few soldiers staying in to make higher ranking NCO spots, and that the majority (like 75%) were actually not even Israelis nor even Jews, but just there pulling a paycheck doing NCO jobs. Higher rank and the majority or Commissioned officers were Israelis though.

I called BS, especially at the 75% rate but it got me thinking, so I figured I'd ask you guys.
Any truth to it?
Thanks for your time.

[ZZEZ]

Sounds like bull****.....but what unit is he talking about?

[deathil93]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think its BS.

[kalamazan]

I believe that is plain B.S.. I have never heard of NCO'S "contractors" inside the IDF. We do have Non Jewish people that goes in believing that this is their duty. Druzes, Beduins and others, and some of them stay as a job inside the IDF. Anything is possible, but since Moshe Dayan had to pass the same "torture" that all the officers went trough, makes me very skeptical that they would just hire somebody from the outside to train our soldiers. Also, it would be kind of let down to those who may consider a carrier inside the IDF. As I said, anything is possible.....

[GB_FXST]

B.s.

123456

[seraosha]

Apparently there were enough Germans, Italians and French friends across Europe, that he claimed to have served with while in the IDF, that he and his wife (my buddies wife's sister) would couch surf all summer, with the guys doing what all former service members do...drink and bs...I'll look into what unit/time frame he says he served, but my buddy is a vet, we served together, and he seemed pretty convinced.

But I agree, sounds like a load...the only exception I can think of would be some speciality MOS or technical job that was hard to fill, that would be "outsourced", like the Raython or Lockheed guys that hung out in my motorpool, back in the day.

[IDF_TANKER]

First, does he mean actually IDF or MAGAV? Because in MAGAV, AFAIK, you can stay and serve in combat positions after your regular service ends. In IDF, you can be NCO after your regular service - but at most for a year or so. Now, there is a chance he was talking about "nagad" positions - the IDF version of warrant officers. But there are no warrant officers which are commanders in combat ground units (e.g. infantry), they almost exclusively fill various administrative positions - being in charge of armories, technicians etc. So, unless it's some kind of lost in translation case, it sounds very strange to me.

[GB_FXST]

Apparently there were enough Germans, Italians and French friends across Europe, that he claimed to have served with while in the IDF, that he and his wife (my buddies wife's sister) would couch surf all summer, with the guys doing what all former service members do...drink and bs...I'll look into what unit/time frame he says he served, but my buddy is a vet, we served together, and he seemed pretty convinced.

But I agree, sounds like a load...the only exception I can think of would be some speciality MOS or technical job that was hard to fill, that would be "outsourced", like the Raython or Lockheed guys that hung out in my motorpool, back in the day.

It should be noted that there are dual citizens and foreigners that serve in the IDF, but they are conscripted like everyone else. I know of some new immigrants who have "fast-tracked" into special jobs, but they too were conscripted and were not considered contractors by any means.

While the idea of contractor NCO's is BS. The idea that dual citizens of Germany, Italy and France served in IDF, and returned to their countries of origin is very plausible. In fact, I too served with dual citizens from Germany, Italy and France. We basically had a mini UN of sorts, with guys from all over North and South America, other parts of Europe and Russia, India, South Africa and Australia.

[tanks_alot]

First, does he mean actually IDF or MAGAV? Because in MAGAV, AFAIK, you can stay and serve in combat positions after your regular service ends. In IDF, you can be NCO after your regular service - but at most for a year or so. Now, there is a chance he was talking about "nagad" positions - the IDF version of warrant officers. But there are no warrant officers which are commanders in combat ground units (e.g. infantry), they almost exclusively fill various administrative positions - being in charge of armories, technicians etc. So, unless it's some kind of lost in translation case, it sounds very strange to me.

Maybe his friend was a Beduin tracker. :)

[seraosha]

Thanks guys, for a story told "third hand" you have been helpful. I'll ask him next time we talk, see if he could get more info. I think the "warrant officer" description is the closest fit, as the guy in question was a German Army vet who then served in the Israeli military...which exact branch/unit/location I'll try and find out.

It's sounding more plausible, although probably something was lost in translation. My buddy was kind of describing a cadre of foreigners serving though, not dual citizenship.
During the ramp up to the first Gulf War I was in contact with the Israeli embassy, looking to join up...and not being Jewish, and not knowing Hebrew, kind of cooled my jets, thats how we got on the topic, talking about units we wished we could have cross trained with while we were in the Cav. That and coveting the merkava, lol.

[IDF_TANKER]

Maybe his friend was a Beduin tracker. :)

Yeah, or one of those Druze drivers in the territories...

[IDF_TANKER]

Thanks guys, for a story told "third hand" you have been helpful. I'll ask him next time we talk, see if he could get more info. I think the "warrant officer" description is the closest fit, as the guy in question was a German Army vet who then served in the Israeli military...which exact branch/unit/location I'll try and find out.

It's sounding more plausible, although probably something was lost in translation. My buddy was kind of describing a cadre of foreigners serving though, not dual citizenship.
During the ramp up to the first Gulf War I was in contact with the Israeli embassy, looking to join up...and not being Jewish, and not knowing Hebrew, kind of cooled my jets, thats how we got on the topic, talking about units we wished we could have cross trained with while we were in the Cav. That and coveting the merkava, lol.

Arghhh, you people... I can only envy your romanticism... What would even more cool your jets is the endless kitchen and guarding duties. Trust me, there a lot of broken heart American Jewish boys who come here to kill terrorists and spend 99% of the time checking IDs of grim Palis, cleaning pots and guarding a fence - all that, whilst being yelled on by 18yo NCOs and 19yo officers.

[seraosha]

Arghhh, you people... I can only envy your romanticism... What would even more cool your jets is the endless kitchen and guarding duties. Trust me, there a lot of broken heart American Jewish boys who come here to kill terrorists and spend 99% of the time checking IDs of grim Palis, cleaning pots and guarding a fence - all that, whilst being yelled on by 18yo NCOs and 19yo officers.

Yeah, I was still in college, like 19 or so...just a dumb goy.

[GB_FXST]

Thanks guys, for a story told "third hand" you have been helpful. I'll ask him next time we talk, see if he could get more info. I think the "warrant officer" description is the closest fit, as the guy in question was a German Army vet who then served in the Israeli military...which exact branch/unit/location I'll try and find out.

It's sounding more plausible, although probably something was lost in translation. My buddy was kind of describing a cadre of foreigners serving though, not dual citizenship.
During the ramp up to the first Gulf War I was in contact with the Israeli embassy, looking to join up...and not being Jewish, and not knowing Hebrew, kind of cooled my jets, thats how we got on the topic, talking about units we wished we could have cross trained with while we were in the Cav. That and coveting the merkava, lol.

It would be terribly anticlimactic if this whole thing turned out to be Sar-el (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sar-El).

[IDF_TANKER]

Yeah, I was still in college, like 19 or so...just a dumb goy.

You could as well be a dumb Jew, with only tragic difference that then you could actually get what you wished for.:)

[OttawaLoneWolf]

probably is ! there are many Sar-El Volunteers who spend more than few month in one base. Most of these old guys are vets from other countries who miss the environment of a base.

They did great jobs tho

[JUNKHO]

Knew a Cobra WO in the 82nd in the late 70s whose stated goal was to join the Israelis. He was a VN vet and had BTDT, here and there ribbons. He got out and I didn't hear of him again until I learned he was in Sar El some 10 years later, doing what I do not know. Do not know that he had anything to do with the Israeli Army during the intervening 10-+ year, but he seemed intent when he left the 82nd. Situation sounds vaguely similar.

[Givati575]

on a side note, i think it's ridiculous that there aren't NCO's that stay in combat units. Think about all the experience they could bring to each company....

just look at these bad-asses: Apone from Aliens, Sergeant Major Johnson from Halo.....

http://www.ascendantjustice.com/files/oldfamiliar/alien/02.png

[BlackWarder]

on a side note, i think it's ridiculous that there aren't NCO's that stay in combat units. Think about all the experience they could bring to each company....

just look at these bad-asses: Apone from Aliens, Sergeant Major Johnson from Halo.....

http://www.ascendantjustice.com/files/oldfamiliar/alien/02.png

There are good things and bad things about this, I agree that the lose of experiance is a bad thing OTOH the high exchange rate of NCOs mean that the reserve units have a much higher precentage of NCOs in them.
TBH I think that there shoud be a why to retain the NCOs for another year or two, the main problem with that is money...

Warder

[Givati575]

There are good things and bad things about this, I agree that the lose of experiance is a bad thing OTOH the high exchange rate of NCOs mean that the reserve units have a much higher precentage of NCOs in them.
TBH I think that there shoud be a why to retain the NCOs for another year or two, the main problem with that is money...

Warder

what do you mean by ' exchange rate ' of NCO's?

[BlackWarder]

Number of NCO entering and exiting the system in a given year, it's not uncommon to have 2-3 new NCOs joining a company and 2-3 leaving every 4 months.

Warder

[Climber]

IMO Since our is a people army and that everyone starts equally, a conscript soldier, it makes sense that we move up as officers. Is the only "democratic" way in a people's army.

[Climber]

There are good things and bad things about this, I agree that the lose of experiance is a bad thing OTOH the high exchange rate of NCOs mean that the reserve units have a much higher precentage of NCOs in them.
TBH I think that there shoud be a why to retain the NCOs for another year or two, the main problem with that is money...

Warder

Aren't we all NCO's in miluim?

[Givati575]

Aren't we all NCO's in miluim?

no12345678

[Climber]

no12345678

How's that? I am confused with the term NCO's then.



Aren't we NCO's?


Or NCO's are rasal, rasam, ranag, etc?

[Givati575]

How's that? I am confused with the term NCO's then.



Aren't we NCO's?


Or NCO's are rasal, rasam, ranag, etc?

it's all in the technicality. Just because you get some chevrons on your shoulder after being in miluim for so long doesn't make you an NCO.

[Climber]

it's all in the technicality. Just because you get some chevrons on your shoulder after being in miluim for so long doesn't make you an NCO.
I see...........