Erdogan calls for Turkish schools in Germany and dual citizenship

[JJHH]

25.03.2010

Suggestions by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan for more Turkish schools in Germany have been largely rejected by German officials as detrimental to integration.

German officials have rejected calls by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to introduce Turkish schools in Germany. "In Turkey, we have German high schools - why shouldn't there be Turkish high schools in Germany?" Erdogan asked in an interview with German weekly Die Zeit.

Erdogan said that many of the almost three million people of Turkish origin living in Germany had problems with both languages, and offering education in Turkish might also help their German. "Germany has not yet caught up with the times," Erdogan said. "One must first have a firm command of one's own language, that is to say, Turkish, and that is unfortunately rarely the case."

See: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5388475,00.html

[JJHH]

That man is crazy....

[Alex G]

This actually could be possible, if Germany would allow real private schools as some other countries do. But on official level - thanks no.

[Faheka]

As you know, there are British, American and French schools throughout Germany, and there doesn't seem to be resistance to those types of schools. Why do you think the topic of schools in the Turkish language is treated differently?

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5392628,00.html

wam bam ty mam.

[b0sco]

Those schools are private schools. Erdogan wants public ones.

[Alex G]

Those schools are private schools. Erdogan wants public ones.

Its Germany with pretty dumb school system controlled by lands and that already are at some points way too different between lands, so no way that he is going to get public schools. Private, maybe. But who gonna pay for them?

[j3T]

As you know, there are British, American and French schools throughout Germany, and there doesn't seem to be resistance to those types of schools. Why do you think the topic of schools in the Turkish language is treated differently?

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5392628,00.html

wam bam ty mam.

British, American and French make an effort to adjust to the country they decide to live in. Turkish do not. If you don't believe me, you should visit Brussels once.

[JJHH]

As you know, there are British, American and French schools throughout Germany, and there doesn't seem to be resistance to those types of schools. Why do you think the topic of schools in the Turkish language is treated differently?

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5392628,00.html

wam bam ty mam.

You familiar with integration problems in Germany? This concerns the Turks in particular. Turkish schools in Germany will only make it worse. So what kind of ignorant dumbass is this Erdogan?

You might want to read this article:
Survey Shows Alarming Lack of Integration in Germany

A new study has shown that Turks in particular are faring poorly in Germany.

See http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,603588,00.html

[Panchito12]

When is that douchebag's term up?

[JCR]

I'm not saying all or even most turks share this, but Erdogan really sees turks living in europe as a vanguard for further turkish colonization, a fifth column in their respective countries.
A strange mix of racial ideology and islam
He recently held a semi-secret conference for decisionmakers (politicians, business executives) of turkish descent from europe, where he lobbied for them to advance turkish interests in their host countries. No one official from the host countries was invited, no press either. The whole thing only became known because some turkish german MPs felt more german than turkish and spilled the beans by telling it to der Spiegel.

[Steak-Sauce]

No, thanks, but no and never.

[Excalibur]

Erdogan is great news maker

[JCR]

Erdogan is great news maker

Scary part is that the "foreign turk" conference was not in the news at all, it was secret. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,684125,00.html)

[Faheka]

You familiar with integration problems in Germany? This concerns the Turks in particular. Turkish schools in Germany will only make it worse. So what kind of ignorant dumbass is this Erdogan?

You might want to read this article:
Survey Shows Alarming Lack of Integration in Germany

A new study has shown that Turks in particular are faring poorly in Germany.

See http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,603588,00.html

Clearly u guys in germany have failed, so let erdo and his crew fix up your mess..p-) it's not like german language wouldnt be mandatory in such schools..


Scary part is that the "foreign turk" conference was not in the news at all, it was secret. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,684125,00.html)

Can u blame Erdo for trying to copy the success AIPAC has in US in germany..p-)

[JJHH]

Scary part is that the "foreign turk" conference was not in the news at all, it was secret. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,684125,00.html)

Wtf?? 5th column indeed...

[tluassa]

Wont happen. Outrage across all parties and overwhelming (95-100% of Germans against it :) Even the Turks living here state in a great majority that first of all their children need to learn German.

Besides, as I see it, children of Turkish migrants born in Germany and carrying a German passport have German as "mother" language, not Turkish.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Is their Turkish immersion in German schools?

[Difool]

A lot of Turks coming to Germany cannot even read or write Turkish. Maybe Erdogan should work on Turkish education system first.

[tornadoss]

Give back Constantinople first!

LoL in your dreams :D

[Ulytau]

A lot of Turks coming to Germany cannot even read or write Turkish. Maybe Erdogan should work on Turkish education system first.

Or maybe they arent Turks,i believe you guess i imply who.

About Dual Citizenship issue i support him because people really having problem at borders if they accept only Turkish citizenship or German,about school issue of course German government wont accept it but as i know some Turks who speakin good German having problem with their teachers too ''know from a Turkish girl who lives in Germany'' about my idea if i was living in Germany which generation i am part of not very important will learn German and do my best for my kids learn too of course with speakin their native language too.

About Istanbul issue,i have plenty 7.62 mm :) :D

[3rdMillhouse]

When is that douchebag's term up?

He's like a 4chan troll that was voted into presidency or something like it.

[tluassa]

@ Ulytau

Germans certainly have nothing against Turkish immigrants speaking turkish within their family, and of course do People understand how immigrants have an interest in passing on their heritage to their children, but that is disconnected from the need to learn German, let alone to become a member of the society that communicates mainly in German. And no immigrant in no country can really go around this, unless he is rich enough to constantly employ People translating everything for him ...

[The Canadian]

The Turkish Government should focus on internal problems, which actually physically and directly involve Turkey and Turks, such as their continuing impending problems which blockade their unrealistic entrance into the European Union.

[Faheka]

not at all, I think it makes perfect sense to be allowed to run private turkish schools as there is a quite a large diaspora in Germany.. All Erdo asks is equal treatment, no favors.. Does it make sense yeah my cana**** freund?

[realityexists]

not at all, I think it makes perfect sense to be allowed to run private turkish schools as there is a quite a large diaspora in Germany.. All Erdo asks is equal treatment, no favors.. Does it make sense yeah my cana**** freund?
I am assuming English is not your first language, so just an FYI "Cana****" is not a very respectful term...

As to the issue why would the German government take German tax money to run Turkish schools? Does Germany not have an "official language?" Here in the United States we have no official language so schools still teach bilingual education for non native-English speakers (mainly Spanish) but they do so with the idea that they transition the students to English, and by the time the students reach High School and graduate on to college/university everybody does their work in English.

[Karaahmetoglu]

The Turkish Government should focus on internal problems, which actually physically and directly involve Turkey and Turks, such as their continuing impending problems which blockade their unrealistic entrance into the European Union.


Internal problems? As a Canadian you should look at yourself instead of pointing fingers. Native reserves are ghettos, the treatment of natives in Canada is terrible no opportunities no respect. The living conditions in some parts of Canada are horrendous, and I am not talking about weather, I had the tap water tested in one of these places, and it did not meet the minimum requirements for sewage that would get dumped back into the North Saskatchewan river. Northern Alberta is polluted like hell, the government does nothing because they get crazy amounts of money from oil companies, this is basic corruption.

As for the Germans, they were the ones bitching at Turkey (through the European human rights whatever) to start Kurdish schools in Turkey, hypocrisy much? And don't give me that bull that the Turks in Germany are immigrants were as the Kurds are native, when Saddam was killing them where did they all go? I know many Kurds who came to Turkey from Iraq, some of which are PKK supporters, and in my head I was thinking wow if Turkey was not there for this guy in 80's he would not even be around right now. Our second president after Ataturk was a Kurd, our current president is a Georgian (I hate Erdogan), Turks are outnumbered in the Turkish Mejlis (Parliament) by Georgians, Circassians, & Kurds, tell me where else in the world is the majority population a minority in their own government?

[The Canadian]

While no nation is perfect, Canada is negotiating the long winded history of Euro-centric repression of the First Nations people. It has become an evolution, the repression having been so institutionalized that ridding the nation of that oppression is a long process. Similarly, emotions and political views run parallel, and the resulting negotiation towards a greater and more equal society are at times stagnant. However, without trudging through the controversial history, it is obvious that Canada has made gains in the status of the First Nations people. While the true equality and full respect that these members of society deserve has yet to come, it has none the less become fully knowledgeable about the problems that contemporary and historical First Nations face and faced.

From the spread of disease which created the annihilation of much of the population, to the destruction of First Nations culture by residential schools, the taking away of lands previously granted; to the very current drug, alcohol addiction and the violence against women which affects the First Nation community greatly. However, as this is not a matter of discussion, I will not be going into greater detail about history; since it is not a matter of denial but a matter of finding the solutions to current problems.

To get back on topic, the matter of education is key. Germany as a nation which has a recognized official language, takes great standards at standardization of education, through equal efforts aimed at ensuring that education throughout the nation is of the same level. Providing funding to schools for any minority would off-set the standard and level of quality which the German Ministry of Education desires to promote. It isn't a matter of allowing for private schools with private funding to form, it is a matter of ethnically based schools with public funding being formed, which would create a double standard and create further problems with integration. Considering that a common consensus exists that Turkish immigrants are not finding the integration into German society easy, the promotion of separate schools would only create further hindrance. Not to mention, that Germany has a long winded history of segregation which it does not wish to emulate.

[Difool]

Or maybe they arent Turks,i believe you guess i imply who.

I've got a close family member that teaches foreigners in Germany the German language. I can tell you stories you would not believe. And many of them are German citizens!!!

[Tyon]

Why the hell keep people calling it a "diaspora"? Its not like they got kicked out of turkey against their will.


I can tell you stories you would not believe.

hehe i was on a hauptschule from the 9th to 10th grade... i could tell you stories :D

[IconOfEvi]

I was amused at how Erdogan clarified that any Turk's mother tongue, no matter their citizenship/loyalty, is Turkish.

Ive actually found this to be the prevalent notion outside of the West. They look at their diaspora as advancing the interests of their former nation-state, not their adopted state. As first gen immigrant, it pisses me off.

[b0sco]

Outrage across all parties

Don't be so sure about that. The SPD wants to give foreigners living in Germany but not having citizenship voting rights. Gabriel also demands Turkish lessons at German schools.

Not to mention that the Linke will support anything anti-German.

[creativeUsername]

Spending German tax payer money to open Turkish schools would not be popular with the majority native German voters, so this wont happen

[Mackie]

Mr Populism strikes again.
Children of immigrants who are born in Germany have to choose their citizenship between 18 and 23.
His proposal was about the secondary school in Germany. I think the intention is clear.
Erdogan dreams about another fishing agency for Turkey and the AKP.

[JCR]

I am a social democrat and I've stated my opinion clearly on the first page, so we're not all vaterlandslose Gesellen :P

Re the school model, there were (or still are) Greek language high schools, at least I know one existed in Mannheim.
I knew a guy who had attended it, he had to attend Studienkolleg to study in germany despite never actually having lived in Greece, and he never learned proper german.
Foreign language schools are good for people who are in a country temporarily.
So if Erdogan wants turkish language schools in Germany that means either he wants all turks to return to Turkey in the near future or sees them as a spearhead for a turkic settlement of Germany/Europe, in the same pattern as the turks once settled Anatolia before 1453.
I don't say all turks (or even a large minority) share this, but Erdogan isn't just an islamist, he wants to resume the Ottoman march on Europe and sees the turkish immigrants as the vanguard of future occupation.

[Sumadinac]

One word; Integration.

You can keep your faith, but at home, for the rest, adapt yourself, instead of trying to adapt the locals to your customs.

Anyway what is the need? Are german public schools not good enough to them?

[Difool]

One word; Integration.

You can keep your faith, but at home, for the rest, adapt yourself, instead of trying to adapt the locals to your customs.

Anyway what is the need? Are german public schools not good enough to them?

They speak about integration since decades. It prooved to be an illusion. (at least for those low educated none Europeans that came in countless numbers)

[Tyon]

But Difool its our fault. Because we dont welcome them enough. :/

[JJHH]

It prooved to be an illusion.

Absolutely. What amazes me is the recent number of Turks in Germany murdering their wives in the name of family honour..

[Aor]

I am a social democrat and I've stated my opinion clearly on the first page, so we're not all vaterlandslose Gesellen :P

Re the school model, there were (or still are) Greek language high schools, at least I know one existed in Mannheim.
I knew a guy who had attended it, he had to attend Studienkolleg to study in germany despite never actually having lived in Greece, and he never learned proper german.
Foreign language schools are good for people who are in a country temporarily.
So if Erdogan wants turkish language schools in Germany that means either he wants all turks to return to Turkey in the near future or sees them as a spearhead for a turkic settlement of Germany/Europe, in the same pattern as the turks once settled Anatolia before 1453.
I don't say all turks (or even a large minority) share this, but Erdogan isn't just an islamist, he wants to resume the Ottoman march on Europe and sees the turkish immigrants as the vanguard of future occupation.

From my knowing Greeks living in Germany that have had a family there have their children attend German School and take Greek language and history classes in the afternoon at the Greek schools. Participation is voluntary and there is no problems with integration from what I know. I have lived in Germany for 5 years and have never seen a Greek raised in Germany facing and any problems communicating or integrating to the society. In fact some Greek children only learn to speak German and never learn Greek. Was this guy you mention born in Germany?

[JCR]

He did the greek equivalent of Abitur in Mannheim on a greek school, so he had to do the same courses as foreigners to attend university.

Not sure wether he was born here, but he surely lived a lot longer in Germany than in Greece.

[JBH22]

No, thanks, but no and never.

German politician should ask him to give the finance to build those schools erdogan will have to STFU then

[Aor]

He did the greek equivalent of Abitur in Mannheim on a greek school, so he had to do the same courses as foreigners to attend university.

Not sure wether he was born here, but he surely lived a lot longer in Germany than in Greece.

If he did that, then he must have pretty much have his mind set on living in Greece. The Greek equivalent of the German Abitur is much more difficult in comparison and one must pass it in order to enter a university in Greece. If he wanted to study in Germany he wouldn't have bothered with it. He would simply have concentrated in having an Abitur.

Anyway it is very weird. To me it seems this guy pretty much had abandoned any prospect of living in Germany.

[Ghost Nappa]

What about the Sorbs minority and the Sorbian languages (The Sorbs are't natives but they lives there long enough to conisder as "natives"), Does Germany have a policy on that ?

[Difool]

What about the Sorbs minority and the Sorbian languages (The Sorbs are't natives but they lives there long enough to conisder as "natives"), Does Germany have a policy on that ?
Minister-President of the German state of Thuringia is Stanislaw Tillich, a Sorbian himself. In northern Germany we have Danish minority also. Works fine. Or think of the Huguenots.

[JCR]

I wouldn't consider Huguennots a real minority anymore, I think the last french speakers among them died out around 1920 or so.
Some as the Ruhrpott poles, there are some areas around Gelsenkirchen etc where everybody has a polish name yet no one speaks polish anymore.

Re the Sorbs, their minority rights are guaranteed, everything in their areas is bilingual. I know nationalistic poles (the wikipedia edit war kind of guys) always make a fuss about sorbs in germany but in fact sorbian culture is better represented in Germany than in Poland. Not to mention Sanislaw Tillich...
Threat to sorbian culture are unemployment and mass exodus of young people, not the state.
Sorbs have always lived there, but Huguenots and Ruhrpott poles came here to work, like the turks today.

[little icebear]

not at all, I think it makes perfect sense to be allowed to run private turkish schools as there is a quite a large diaspora in Germany.. All Erdo asks is equal treatment, no favors.. Does it make sense yeah my cana**** freund?

You´re nuts?

Thing is simple as pie. Build private schools if you like. No public funding. As long as the school is set up according to our standarts, noone can or will do or say anything against it. But private schools are expensive... and I´m sure the Turks who could pay for it are the ones who´d never even dream of putting their kids in a Turkish school. You can count on that.


You can live and work (provided you got the papers for it) as a foreigner in Germany. And if it doesn´t suit you any longer you can pack your bags and move back to Turkey.

German citizens of Turkish descent on the other hand are none of your or Erdogans business.

[little icebear]

Sorbs have always lived there, but Huguenots and Ruhrpott poles came here to work, like the turks today.

Huguenots came for shelter against persecution, not because of the economy. ;)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Absolutely. What amazes me is the recent number of Turks in Germany murdering their wives in the name of family honour..It's usually first geneation immigrants from the poorest parts of Turkey. Doesn't make it any better, but most religious-related problems associated with Turks in Germany are caused by recent immigrants.

For example, 3rd and 4th generation Turkish families have birthrates similar to Germans, education level similar to Germans etc.

It's the cooks from the boondocks that are the main problem. Most disturbing is however that the newest immigrants seem even less interested in integration, as by now entire Turkish communities (ghettos some might say) have developed were it is possible to do absolutely everything from a doctor's visit, shopping etc. in Turkish.

And yes, Erdogan should keep his nose out of German business.

[Fuschimuschi]

There actually is a Turkish school here in Hannover. It's private and costs about 240€ a month, most of it being payed by
donations.

When it was opened it caused quite a stir here. When they interviewed parents who decided to
send their kids there they explained they didn't want to have their kids attend public schools since they
wouldn't learn respect there and they didn't want their kids to have to go to school with lowly Arab and
African immigrants. They said that in Turkey, if you want to make it you have to send your kids to a private
school. Pretty much all answers were incredbily elitist.

[VPH]

I don't see Erdogan's position unreasonable. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. They should have more rights than they currently do.

[Snoshi]

I don't see Erdogan's position unreasonable. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. They should have more rights than they currently do.

LOL!! More rights? Such as?

[Hyde]

I don't see Erdogan's position unreasonable. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. They should have more rights than they currently do.

If they are German citizens, they have all the rights that every German has, hence they have enough rights and "more rights" is not possible without giving them "special" rights and more rights than regular Germans (whatever that could be), which is ridiculous. If they are not German citizens, they have practically no rights in Germany, just as milions of other foreigners from italy, Greece, Ex-Yugoslavia, etc... (I and GR have more rights since they are in the EU and can do things non-EU foreigners can not), not even on the communal/local/municipal level, which is kind of ridiculous as the people who live in some part of town or area should have the right to take part in social life and have an active role in the community, as these things also concern them (parks, Schools, roads, zoning, projects etc etc)... that way if, say, in part of one town a third of the people are foreigners (very common in big cities) and there is a decision on some projects which would bring discomfort, and only the German citizens are allowed to vote for it (or to elect the local politicians etc), if the vote goes 55 - 45, and the majority of the foreigners would have voted against it, the democratic procedure is inexistent as the majority of the citizens of that community oppose it, but half of them have no voice. That's where some of the passivity comes from, as the foreigners have no means to take part in anything, they have to live on what is imposed on them, so they lose interest in things as they can't change anything.

[chris450]

You´re nuts?

Thing is simple as pie. Build private schools if you like. No public funding. As long as the school is set up according to our standarts, noone can or will do or say anything against it. But private schools are expensive... and I´m sure the Turks who could pay for it are the ones who´d never even dream of putting their kids in a Turkish school. You can count on that.


You can live and work (provided you got the papers for it) as a foreigner in Germany. And if it doesn´t suit you any longer you can pack your bags and move back to Turkey.

German citizens of Turkish descent on the other hand are none of your or Erdogans business.

very well put

[Steak-Sauce]

I don't see Erdogan's position unreasonable. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. They should have more rights than they currently do.

Yeah. Why not. Any other useful suggestions?

[tluassa]

If they are German citizens, they have all the rights that every German has, hence they have enough rights and "more rights" is not possible without giving them "special" rights and more rights than regular Germans (whatever that could be), which is ridiculous. If they are not German citizens, they have practically no rights in Germany, just as milions of other foreigners from italy, Greece, Ex-Yugoslavia, etc... (I and GR have more rights since they are in the EU and can do things non-EU foreigners can not), not even on the communal/local/municipal level, which is kind of ridiculous as the people who live in some part of town or area should have the right to take part in social life and have an active role in the community, as these things also concern them (parks, Schools, roads, zoning, projects etc etc)... that way if, say, in part of one town a third of the people are foreigners (very common in big cities) and there is a decision on some projects which would bring discomfort, and only the German citizens are allowed to vote for it (or to elect the local politicians etc), if the vote goes 55 - 45, and the majority of the foreigners would have voted against it, the democratic procedure is inexistent as the majority of the citizens of that community oppose it, but half of them have no voice. That's where some of the passivity comes from, as the foreigners have no means to take part in anything, they have to live on what is imposed on them, so they lose interest in things as they can't change anything.

You dont seem to have heard about Immigration councils in Germany, which should normally do exactly that business you describe, but are suffering from a serious lack of interest from the side of the immigrants. (and to be fair, also the Germans dont really care)

[4X4Driver]

Mr Populism strikes again.
Children of immigrants who are born in Germany have to choose their citizenship between 18 and 23.
His proposal was about the secondary school in Germany. I think the intention is clear.
Erdogan dreams about another fishing agency for Turkey and the AKP.

This sums it all up pretty good.

[IconOfEvi]

Im more disturbed that this a general trend among the home nation-states. They think they own their diaspora.

[Dexx]

If they are German citizens, they have all the rights that every German has, hence they have enough rights and "more rights" is not possible without giving them "special" rights and more rights than regular Germans (whatever that could be), which is ridiculous. If they are not German citizens, they have practically no rights in Germany, just as milions of other foreigners from italy, Greece, Ex-Yugoslavia, etc... (I and GR have more rights since they are in the EU and can do things non-EU foreigners can not), not even on the communal/local/municipal level, which is kind of ridiculous as the people who live in some part of town or area should have the right to take part in social life and have an active role in the community, as these things also concern them (parks, Schools, roads, zoning, projects etc etc)... that way if, say, in part of one town a third of the people are foreigners (very common in big cities) and there is a decision on some projects which would bring discomfort, and only the German citizens are allowed to vote for it (or to elect the local politicians etc), if the vote goes 55 - 45, and the majority of the foreigners would have voted against it, the democratic procedure is inexistent as the majority of the citizens of that community oppose it, but half of them have no voice. That's where some of the passivity comes from, as the foreigners have no means to take part in anything, they have to live on what is imposed on them, so they lose interest in things as they can't change anything.

It is not true. EU foreigners can vote on the local level (Stadtrats- und Gemeinderatswahl). Art. 28 I Grundgesetz.

[Alex G]

If they are German citizens, they have all the rights that every German has, hence they have enough rights and "more rights" is not possible without giving them "special" rights and more rights than regular Germans (whatever that could be), which is ridiculous. If they are not German citizens, they have practically no rights in Germany, just as milions of other foreigners from italy, Greece, Ex-Yugoslavia, etc... (I and GR have more rights since they are in the EU and can do things non-EU foreigners can not), not even on the communal/local/municipal level, which is kind of ridiculous as the people who live in some part of town or area should have the right to take part in social life and have an active role in the community, as these things also concern them (parks, Schools, roads, zoning, projects etc etc)... that way if, say, in part of one town a third of the people are foreigners (very common in big cities) and there is a decision on some projects which would bring discomfort, and only the German citizens are allowed to vote for it (or to elect the local politicians etc), if the vote goes 55 - 45, and the majority of the foreigners would have voted against it, the democratic procedure is inexistent as the majority of the citizens of that community oppose it, but half of them have no voice. That's where some of the passivity comes from, as the foreigners have no means to take part in anything, they have to live on what is imposed on them, so they lose interest in things as they can't change anything.

Well, most turks I know ARE German citizens. And you can become one after living 8 years in Germany. Actually not that hard if you have work here.

[Flamming_Python]

Idiot. The correct answer to 'own language' is German. They are after all, German citizens. One would hope that after a couple generations, Germans of Turkish descent would be fully integrated. They won't be Turks. They'll be Germans.

In principle, why can't Germans of Turkish descent stay as Germans of Turkish descent if some of them chose to? Of course, any generation after the 1st will have more in common with their fellow Germans than with Turkey's population at any rate.

[Hyde]

You dont seem to have heard about Immigration councils in Germany, which should normally do exactly that business you describe, but are suffering from a serious lack of interest from the side of the immigrants. (and to be fair, also the Germans dont really care)

What's the German Name for immigration council? No matter if they have a "Rat der Muslime" or whatever, they still have no right to vote in municipal, communal or local elections, and thus they have no right to neither choose the representative of their local community nor to vote on projects regarding their communal and local developement.


It is not true. EU foreigners can vote on the local level (Stadtrats- und Gemeinderatswahl). Art. 28 I Grundgesetz.

Yes, I said so.

"(I and GR have more rights since they are in the EU and can do things non-EU foreigners can not)"
By I and GR I meant the aforementioned Italian and Greek foreigners which make up a large group of the non-German population.



Well, most turks I know ARE German citizens. And you can become one after living 8 years in Germany. Actually not that hard if you have work here.

Then they are Germans and not Turks, hence they have every right and obligation that any other German has.

[3rdMillhouse]

I don't see Erdogan's position unreasonable. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. They should have more rights than they currently do.

Bullsh1t, if they're illegals then they have no rights at all, and if they're legal german citizens then they have the kind of rights any other citizen would have.

Reported for dumbassery.

[tluassa]

[QUOTE=MareCar;4848377]What's the German Name for immigration council? No matter if they have a "Rat der Muslime" or whatever, they still have no right to vote in municipal, communal or local elections, and thus they have no right to neither choose the representative of their local community nor to vote on projects regarding their communal and local developement.

Why would I give someone that doesnt have do anything for this society, has no duties imposed on him by the law contrary to the Germans living here, doesnt have to serve in our Army or do civil service and in many cases lives off state payments the right to vote ? I dont see the point. And do Germans living in Turkey get the special right to vote in Turkey ? Surely not, because that is like giving anyone living on this planet the right to vote in our elections. These are German elections. Your call goes against the very basics of our country: Basic law.

The right to vote is defined as beeing a German over 18 years old. (16 for communal elections) And there is no reason to change that.
If Turkey gets a EU member someday, than its a completely differend story, because than we have other regulations concerning EU citizens and voting rights (they than would have to decide whether to vote in the German or Turkish elections.)

[toki]

About the english, french International schools, they're mainly for expat children. Families that stay here, but will never live in Germany. In my town we have a Japanese highschool. Modeled on the Japanese school system. But those children will go back to Japan and will never speak German. Not being schooled in German, when your own prior German is poor or non-existant to begin with will not leave you any chances finding a proper job later in life. Millions who were born here and have their future here being schooled in any other language than German would have bad consequences. Turks could only work in Turkish businesses. If anything Turkish children should have even more German classes and specialized programs. If you're third(!) generation and speak with an accent, it shows that something went wrong. You will have limited chances in the German society. The turkish families who ignore German as a language rob their children of a good chance. It happens too often already.

[Hyde]

[QUOTE=MareCar;4848377]What's the German Name for immigration council? No matter if they have a "Rat der Muslime" or whatever, they still have no right to vote in municipal, communal or local elections, and thus they have no right to neither choose the representative of their local community nor to vote on projects regarding their communal and local developement.

Why would I give someone that doesnt have do anything for this society, has no duties imposed on him by the law contrary to the Germans living here, doesnt have to serve in our Army or do civil service and in many cases lives off state payments the right to vote ? I dont see the point. And do Germans living in Turkey get the special right to vote in Turkey ? Surely not, because that is like giving anyone living on this planet the right to vote in our elections. These are German elections. Your call goes against the very basics of our country: Basic law.

The right to vote is defined as beeing a German over 18 years old. (16 for communal elections) And there is no reason to change that.
If Turkey gets a EU member someday, than its a completely differend story, because than we have other regulations concerning EU citizens and voting rights (they than would have to decide whether to vote in the German or Turkish elections.)

What call, genious? I didn't make any "calls", I just explained the general situation of foreigners-rights in Germany to the guy who was calling for "giving turks more rights".
I agree that foreigners have no place in elections that are of matter to the German state and Germany as a whole, but on a local level which is only of concern to the people living in a particular community, my opinion is that it would be of benefit to the integration of foreigners if everyone could have a vote for the community, at least if the percentage of foreigners exceeds, say, 20 or 25% and, say, lives there for at least 10 years and has a valid working and residency permit. Because they work and pay taxes, too. Otherwise the wish of the people who live in an area/community/city block etc would be unaccounted for, which is not very democratic. If a project is proposed in an area, say to rebuild streets or infrastructure in a city block, and almost all people living there are foreigners while the germans from that community (bezirk/gemeinde) live in a different part of the community/other city block, and the foreigners have no vote, the germans would be able to vote against that every time and only make the projects in their particular blocks, leaving the blocks where foreigners live to decay. That's how "foreigner ghetto's" are formed, it has already begun and will only get worse. EU citizens can vote, why shouldn't citizens with other citizenship have a say of what concerns their tax money in the part of town where they live?

And your comment about foreigners living of state payments...I'll just ignore that kind of stupidity.

[tluassa]

What call, genious? I didn't make any "calls", I just explained the general situation of foreigners-rights in Germany to the guy who was calling for "giving turks more rights".
I agree that foreigners have no place in elections that are of matter to the German state and Germany as a whole, but on a local level which is only of concern to the people living in a particular community, my opinion is that it would be of benefit to the integration of foreigners if everyone could have a vote for the community, at least if the percentage of foreigners exceeds, say, 20 or 25% and, say, lives there for at least 10 years and has a valid working and residency permit. Because they work and pay taxes, too.
One can surely talk about that point. But if somebody lives here 8 years he can also apply for German citizenship if he wants to take part in the elections. I dont see what is so difficult about that ! If they want to keep their outside-EU-nationality, no voting rights.

Otherwise the wish of the people who live in an area/community/city block etc would be unaccounted for, which is not very democratic. If a project is proposed in an area, say to rebuild streets or infrastructure in a city block, and almost all people living there are foreigners while the germans from that community (bezirk/gemeinde) live in a different part of the community/other city block, and the foreigners have no vote, the germans would be able to vote against that every time and only make the projects in their particular blocks, leaving the blocks where foreigners live to decay.
And who would actually have an interest in creating "foreigner ghettos" ? Exactly: No one ! These Areas are mostly created because immigrants (if they are not rich Russians) have a considerable lower income than Germans, and thus are forced to live in Areas that have lower rents. Often when the arrive here they are living in social homes provided by the German Government. That has nothing to do with voting rights at all. Nobody can force People to live anywhere in Germany, only refugees have to stay in their respective city / province.

And your comment about foreigners living of state payments...I'll just ignore that kind of stupidity.

First of all we have to get our definitions right !
I did not use the word "foreigner" a single time in my above comment, I used the words "immigrants".
It is still a fact that because of lacking skills considering language and job- education (and I am fair enough to say that failed integration chances, hidden racism and burocracy from the German side contribute to that) the jobless rate among "foreigners" as you say is 10 - 20 % higher than among Germans. And what do these live off if not state payments ? Its not racist or dumb but a simple fact. I still have the feeling that considering Turks in particular they are more and more getting integrated into the German economy and thus the "gap" is at the moment getting smaller not bigger.

[Koppo]

I personally think that what Erdogan suggests is pretty uncalled for because he isn't representative for Turks living outside Turkey. However i don't see foreign language schools as much of a problem for integration. Atleast in Finland there are Swedish, French and English speaking schools and locals and 2nd generation immigrants who attend to those schools are usually able to talk fluent Finnish as well. Of course there are those families who are here for only couple years and their kids won't learn the language because there's no need.

[Redbeard]

What is the problem here? Germany not allowing turkish in public schools or Turks asking for it?

I don't remember people complaining when Yugoslav/Serbian goverment didn't want to make an albanian a second official language in Kosovo nor allow teaching in public schools in Kosovo to be done in the albanian language. 12 years ago that was construed as one of the means of oppresion against Kosovo Albanians, as they were not allow to educate themselves.

Can someone explain it to me why the double standards?

[toki]

What is the problem here? Germany not allowing turkish in public schools or Turks asking for it?

I don't remember people complaining when Yugoslav/Serbian goverment didn't want to make an albanian a second official language in Kosovo nor allow teaching in public schools in Kosovo to be done in the albanian language. 12 years ago that was construed as one of the means of oppresion against Kosovo Albanians, as they were not allow to educate themselves.

Can someone explain it to me why the double standards?
Don't compare Germany to the Balkans.
And there are no double standards. There is one official language in Germany and that is German. and people complain, because a foreign head of state complains about Germanys school system, none of his business. Not to say that he has no clue of the realities in Germany and previously made statements against integration of Turks in Germany.

[Steak-Sauce]

Just read in a Tagesschau article that Erdogan will hear a very clear "No" from Merkel, who is going on a 2 day visit to Ankara, meeting with Erdogan and Gül.

[b0sco]

And because of that, Erdogan said Merkel hates Turkey. ;)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

And because of that, Erdogan said Merkel hates Turkey. ;)I'm sure he'll utter the "n" word at some point.

[Redbeard]

Don't compare Germany to the Balkans.
And there are no double standards. There is one official language in Germany and that is German. and people complain, because a foreign head of state complains about Germanys school system, none of his business. Not to say that he has no clue of the realities in Germany and previously made statements against integration of Turks in Germany.

Why shouldn't I compare Germany to Kosovo in regards to the languange issue in public schools? Albanians wanted to have classes in public schools in albanian as well as have albanian another official language in Kosovo. When Yugoslav/Serbian said no on both accounts that was soundly lauded as one the main means of oppression and one of the main reasons Kosovo Albanians wanted independence. Double standards apply in that Germany is wholy within it's rights not to allow such a thing, while the same could not be said for Federal Republic of Yugoslavia back in the '90s.

[toki]

Why shouldn't I compare Germany to Kosovo in regards to the languange issue in public schools?
There is no language issue in German public schools. And Kosovo or the Balkan have nothing in common with Germany in that regard.
Stop trying to make a Balkan thread out of it.

[4X4Driver]

I, personally as a Turk, support Frue. Merkel's stance in this issue. Also, I would advice Erdogan to learn from her and apply the same stance to Turkey....where he's juristiction is.

[Mackie]

I personally think that what Erdogan suggests is pretty uncalled for because he isn't representative for Turks living outside Turkey. However i don't see foreign language schools as much of a problem for integration. Atleast in Finland there are Swedish, French and English speaking schools and locals and 2nd generation immigrants who attend to those schools are usually able to talk fluent Finnish as well. Of course there are those families who are here for only couple years and their kids won't learn the language because there's no need.

You cannot compare that. Swedish or English is a bit different, since you have regions or cities were Swedish is the major language. English is generally good among Scandinavians. I guess your immigration border is in the east.

[Mackie]

I, personally as a Turk, support Frue. Merkel's stance in this issue. Also, I would advice Erdogan to learn from her and apply the same stance to Turkey....where he's juristiction is.

It would be interesting to see a map about the last Turkish voting results?

[4X4Driver]

It would be interesting to see a map about the last Turkish voting results?

They're down from 47% to 39% as recent as March 2009.

..but why is this important really?

[Karaahmetoglu]

They're down from 47% to 39% as recent as March 2009.

..but why is this important really?

In polls it is even lower.

[Mackie]

They're down from 47% to 39% as recent as March 2009.

..but why is this important really?

A map, which regions voted for the AKP.

[Hyde]

One can surely talk about that point. But if somebody lives here 8 years he can also apply for German citizenship if he wants to take part in the elections.
That is one possibility to look at it, and it is totally legit to have that view. There are, however, certain difficulties with obtaining the German citizenship and not all people who live here for 15 or 25 or 35 years have the German citizenship, nor have the wish to obtain it, nor can bear the financial costs of obtaining it (to get the German citizenship you must first get rid of your current one, and the whole process may cost between 500 and over 1000 Euros, and why pay so much money if the only thing that changes for you (or the only reason for you to do it) is the right to vote for something that 16 year old kids without any political knowledge and EU-foreigners that were no different than you a few years ago can? Obtaining the citizenship just isn't an option for many people out of many reasons, that's why they, if they live here long enough and fulfill some kind of criterias should be able to at least have a voice in their community. After all, someone born 1973 in Germany to immigrant parents is more able to vote in an intelligent way and maybe even more "German" than some kid born in 1991. In other countries on earth it works, kids from immigrants are allowed to call themselves Americans or French or Canadian or Australian, because they are, why shouldn't it in Germany? Denying someone to identify himself with the country he is born and raised in just because of his ethnicity or his passport is what takes a good part in excluding foreigners and immigrants from the society and what leads to the integration problems some German politicians whine about. You don't let the people integrate themselves and exclude them from taking part in societal life and the community, and afterwards you complain about them not being willing to "integrate".



I dont see what is so difficult about that ! If they want to keep their outside-EU-nationality, no voting rights.
That's you opinion. And sadly as profound as the one of many other Germans around the "Stammtisch"'es on Friday evenening.



And who would actually have an interest in creating "foreigner ghettos" ? Exactly: No one !I gave you a pretty good example. If the people with voting rights block developement in predominantly foreigner/immigrant areas and redirect the funds to develope and fix up their parts of towns.



These Areas are mostly created because immigrants (if they are not rich Russians) have a considerable lower income than Germans, and thus are forced to live in Areas that have lower rents. Often when the arrive here they are living in social homes provided by the German Government. That has nothing to do with voting rights at all. Nobody can force People to live anywhere in Germany, only refugees have to stay in their respective city / province. Are you tlaking about Asylbewerber or about Immigrants. Because it's not the same and your knowledge about Immigrants, Immigration, Foreigners and their respective living conditions is pretty unknowing. And this is not meant as an attack, I'm just telling you that your "opinion" is wrong as it is based on wrong things and you don't know what you're talking about.



First of all we have to get our definitions right !
I did not use the word "foreigner" a single time in my above comment, I used the words "immigrants". Since you don't talk about foreigners, define Immigrants. Asylbewerber? Angeheiratete? Nachgeholte Familie/Ehepartner? Work-Immigrants? Every foreigner is an immigrant, and in Germany especially, as for as long as you don't have the German citizenship, you are not considered a part of the community.



It is still a fact that because of lacking skills considering language and job- education (and I am fair enough to say that failed integration chances, hidden racism and burocracy from the German side contribute to that) the jobless rate among "foreigners" as you say is 10 - 20 % higher than among Germans. And what do these live off if not state payments ? Its not racist or dumb but a simple fact. I still have the feeling that considering Turks in particular they are more and more getting integrated into the German economy and thus the "gap" is at the moment getting smaller not bigger. What would your skills in language look like if you went to France, Spain, Italy or somewhere else to work there?
You were saying it as if ALL foreigners live off of state payments, 10-20% higher jobless rate is what? 20-30 %? That means 70-80% of foreigners work. You just lined them all up with the people without a job and said they all live off of state payments. And the higher jobless rate can be attributed to a lot of factors, education, even for those born in Germany, is a big point. And their education is not worse because foreigners are stupid and Germans are supersmart, but also because of the failed German school system where the Elementary school teachers skim off who they want and send them to Gymnasium, and who they consider not smart enough they send to hauptschule, which is the worst that can happen to a child, as you know that you are not worth anything and will never come to anything, that you have no chance and will end up working a stupid job, if at all, and that you will never have a chance to make something out of your life. And the elementary school teachers "like" to send foreign and immigrant children to the Hauptschule. Personal example: Some family friends who live here for some 40 years, had a daughter a few years ago that was about to finish 4th grade, and since her grades were pretty good everyone expected her to go to Gymnasium, but then she did bad on a German test (writing some story and was not very imaginative) and the Elementary school teacher claimed that the right place for her would be Hauptschule and that she wouldn't make it in Gymnasium or Realschule, refusing to give her the needed "Übertrittszeugniss" which would allow her to go to a higher school. So after we made some calls the elementary school teacher didn't have any say in it but she had to do well on the next few tests until the end of the year, so she studied a bit and did good and the school gave her the permission to go to gymnasium. And now she is in 9th or 10th grade and doing very well on the Gymnasium, being in the upper third of her class grade-wise. So what does this tell us? I'm not saying this to present it as "evidence that teachers are racist" or something like that, but that you can't judge 10 year old kids and put them in a direction that will define the course of their whole life. Seperate physicists from busboys at 10 years age, it just isn't possible. now the girl will probably go study something and have a great life, and if she was sent to Hauptschule she would've ganged up with the other kids that were defined as losers and failures and would be greeting you behind the counter at McDonalds or in the Supermarket in a few years. If you study you'll do good in school, if you don't you'll fail on tests. It's that simple, and no amount of intelligence can help you if you don't listen to what the teachers tell you. And in kids' lifes there are circumstances that could prevent them from doing well in 4th grade (divorce of parents etc), but maybe these circumstances will go away in a few years and they'll catch motivation at grade 7 or 8 and could come out better in the end than the kids which were best in 4th grade. You'll never know, and doing this so early not only wastes a lot of potential academics for the German job market, but also hurts the economy as it produces a lot of "failures", or people who are free to consider themselves as failures ath the age of 14.

You have a very simplistic view on things and lack a lot of insight, and as such I don't really see the point of stretching this out any longer. If you want to understand it, this post should give you something to think about, if you don't then immigrants and foreigners will still live off of state payments, be all unemployed and producing ghetto's themselves for you in 10 years. I can't help...

[tluassa]

That is one possibility to look at it, and it is totally legit to have that view. There are, however, certain difficulties with obtaining the German citizenship and not all people who live here for 15 or 25 or 35 years have the German citizenship, nor have the wish to obtain it, nor can bear the financial costs of obtaining it (to get the German citizenship you must first get rid of your current one, and the whole process may cost between 500 and over 1000 Euros, and why pay so much money if the only thing that changes for you (or the only reason for you to do it) is the right to vote for something that 16 year old kids without any political knowledge and EU-foreigners that were no different than you a few years ago can? Obtaining the citizenship just isn't an option for many people out of many reasons, that's why they, if they live here long enough and fulfill some kind of criterias should be able to at least have a voice in their community. After all, someone born 1973 in Germany to immigrant parents is more able to vote in an intelligent way and maybe even more "German" than some kid born in 1991. In other countries on earth it works, kids from immigrants are allowed to call themselves Americans or French or Canadian or Australian, because they are, why shouldn't it in Germany? Denying someone to identify himself with the country he is born and raised in just because of his ethnicity or his passport is what takes a good part in excluding foreigners and immigrants from the society and what leads to the integration problems some German politicians whine about. You don't let the people integrate themselves and exclude them from taking part in societal life and the community, and afterwards you complain about them not being willing to "integrate".

Your first point: If somebody has no wish to ever obtain the German citizenship, I very much ask myself why he wants to live permanently in this country. If somebody doesnt want to live here permanently, why give him the right to vote ? A Canadian, American, Turk or whoever is hardly excluded from the German society if he speaks good German and tries to make contact with Germans. 2nd point: I pay 250 € a year alone for my fishing permit ! ... 1000 € is hardly a barrier if somebody wants to obtain citizenship here. I get that sum for a bad payed 4 week production job to get my 650€ University payments together every summer and winter term break. I feel I can also demand that from others for such an important things as to change your nationality !

"I gave you a pretty good example. If the people with voting rights block developement in predominantly foreigner/immigrant areas and redirect the funds to develope and fix up their parts of towns."

So you blame the existance of such Areas entirely on the German bad will to keep "these evil foreigners" away ? Are you serious ? I told you before, nobody can force a foreigner to live in these areas, they choose to live there themself. (Only refugees "Asylbeweber" are forced to stay in their respective Area) Nobody can keep these people (work immigrants, angeheiratete, just what you spoke about !) from moving into rich the "non-immigrant" areas (I dont even know where you think that is !!!! Berlin-Neukölln ? Is there a fence around Berlin-Neukölln keeping the people there ? As I see it most of the "foreigners" move exactly into these Areas out of 2 reasons: economic constraints and the want to live near other People of the same ethnicity. Which is nothing that I dont understand, but this is what creates the real problem: People are not forced to speak German, but can have their own media (Turkish newspapers, Internet, Communities talking in turkish only , and absolutely no need to ever talk to a German - maybe on the job but I worked in some jobs already and there are plenty of production jobs that doesnt require much more than gestures - the machines are to loud anyway to conversate ) Now seeing this "second World" nearly disconnected from Germany, im confronted by the Turkish Premier by the call for even public Turkish schools (while there already are many Turkish private schools !

Are you tlaking about Asylbewerber or about Immigrants. Because it's not the same and your knowledge about Immigrants, Immigration, Foreigners and their respective living conditions is pretty unknowing. And this is not meant as an attack, I'm just telling you that your "opinion" is wrong as it is based on wrong things and you don't know what you're talking about.

"Asylbewerber" are completely out of the question, because they are not allowed by law to work.

Angeheiratete? Nachgeholte Familie/Ehepartner? Work-Immigrants? Every foreigner is an immigrant, and in Germany especially, as for as long as you don't have the German citizenship, you are not considered a part of the community.

Each of that is a special case. In my opinion the rules for "Angeheiratete" works, there are plenty cases of fraud (Scheinehen) but Germany can live with that - and Germans are involved in these crimes, so there is no reason to point a finger. Nachgeholte Familie / Ehepartner: Get the German citizenship very easy. Work immigrants: I think the new regulations go into the right directions: proove a work, proove your German language skills and you will very likely get a permit, so that you can than apply for citizenship if you want to stay.

What would your skills in language look like if you went to France, Spain, Italy or somewhere else to work there?

Why would I move to any of these countries without taking a proper language course before ?

You were saying it as if ALL foreigners live off of state payments, 10-20% higher jobless rate is what? 20-30 %? That means 70-80% of foreigners work.

Yes, and according to the RWI, the 7 million "foreigners" in Germany even produce a surplus of 15 billion € (that they contribute more into the German social system than what is payed to them.) I dont question that, however if the rest of the Germans would produce an equal surplus output, our state would be simply bankrupt, given a current budget of +325 billion €. That is also a fact.

"You just lined them all up with the people without a job and said they all live off of state payments."

Yes, its my humble opinion that to pay for all the lazy (purely German) douchebags of today, funding the rebuilding of East Germany and the European Union is for the moment enough burden for Germany. But I have never questioned that Germany has a need for highskilled workers, wherever they may come from ! But every single "immigrant" without proper German skills and University degree or similar education will have to succeed against ~ 4 million other jobless People. At least if they dont open their own business.

And the higher jobless rate can be attributed to a lot of factors, education, even for those born in Germany, is a big point. And their education is not worse because foreigners are stupid and Germans are supersmart, but also because of the failed German school system where the Elementary school teachers skim off who they want and send them to Gymnasium, and who they consider not smart enough they send to hauptschule, which is the worst that can happen to a child, as you know that you are not worth anything and will never come to anything, that you have no chance and will end up working a stupid job, if at all, and that you will never have a chance to make something out of your life. And the elementary school teachers "like" to send foreign and immigrant children to the Hauptschule. Personal example: Some family friends who live here for some 40 years, had a daughter a few years ago that was about to finish 4th grade, and since her grades were pretty good everyone expected her to go to Gymnasium, but then she did bad on a German test (writing some story and was not very imaginative) and the Elementary school teacher claimed that the right place for her would be Hauptschule and that she wouldn't make it in Gymnasium or Realschule, refusing to give her the needed "Übertrittszeugniss" which would allow her to go to a higher school. So after we made some calls the elementary school teacher didn't have any say in it but she had to do well on the next few tests until the end of the year, so she studied a bit and did good and the school gave her the permission to go to gymnasium. And now she is in 9th or 10th grade and doing very well on the Gymnasium, being in the upper third of her class grade-wise. So what does this tell us? I'm not saying this to present it as "evidence that teachers are racist" or something like that, but that you can't judge 10 year old kids and put them in a direction that will define the course of their whole life. Seperate physicists from busboys at 10 years age, it just isn't possible. now the girl will probably go study something and have a great life, and if she was sent to Hauptschule she would've ganged up with the other kids that were defined as losers and failures and would be greeting you behind the counter at McDonalds or in the Supermarket in a few years. If you study you'll do good in school, if you don't you'll fail on tests. It's that simple, and no amount of intelligence can help you if you don't listen to what the teachers tell you. And in kids' lifes there are circumstances that could prevent them from doing well in 4th grade (divorce of parents etc), but maybe these circumstances will go away in a few years and they'll catch motivation at grade 7 or 8 and could come out better in the end than the kids which were best in 4th grade. You'll never know, and doing this so early not only wastes a lot of potential academics for the German job market, but also hurts the economy as it produces a lot of "failures", or people who are free to consider themselves as failures ath the age of 14.

That is a "Einzelschicksal". I live directly next to an Iranian family that moved here after the Iranian Revolution 1979. Father is a dentist, the mother worked as a secretary for an Oil company in Iran and in Germany changed to his medical practice. I grew up with their 2 daughters (same Kindergarten, same School (in the end) who both completed their studies while Im still at them :) , one is already working as a Doctor in Berlin herself the other is just taking a sail around the World with her German Boyfriend ... And whenever I greet the old Doctor when he passes by with his Porsche, I feel that the talk about "unfair chances" is highly exeggerated and more running around the lines of EDUCATION rather than racism is schools ! Social class barriers in school is a big problem in the German society, there is no denial about that. Same with University education - the new bachelor system is an utter failure if you ask me ... I personally would tear our education system down and rebuild it from the scrap. But that is a whole, whole differend story that involves all People living in this country. And here should be the place where I would grant everybody a right to have their vote, because this is really where "we" Germans force People to something, so they should have a say over the schools their children attend. But as I said, this is really going wrong in Germany for all People living here including Germans. I myself for example was advised to go to a "Gesamtschule" by my "basic-school-teacher", and only later gladly took the chance to switch to a Gymnasium after passing my FORQ (Fachoberschulreife mit Qualifikation zum Übergang in die gymnasiale Oberstufe (FORQ) Interestingly enough, the only 2 People directly passing their Abitur was me and a fellow student from my school while all the Peole that switched over from the Realschule failed, dropped out completely or left after the 11th class. That also told me personally how wrong our education system is. Its still also just an "Einzelschicksal".

You have a very simplistic view on things and lack a lot of insight, and as such I don't really see the point of stretching this out any longer. If you want to understand it, this post should give you something to think about, if you don't then immigrants and foreigners will still live off of state payments, be all unemployed and producing ghetto's themselves for you in 10 years. I can't help...

And you dont seem to able to accept that somebody can have differend perceptions of a society than "multiculti" society ignoring all the problems. Since we didnt have much success with "integration" and now you even start to argue that there can be integration into this society while keeping a foreign nationality for all times, I can only say I see it differend.

"PS: Bei Europa- und Kommunalwahlen sind auch Bürger anderer EU-Mitgliedstaaten, die in Deutschland wohnen, wahlberechtigt. In einigen Bundesländern liegt das Wahlalter bei den kommunalen Wahlen bei 16 Jahren. " IF we enlarge the voting right to persons living outside the European Union, than we have to make sure there are clear treaties and regulations, barring governments from outside of the EU or any other country to "use" and influence their nationals in Germany. Ask yourself if this is really the case at the moment, when you take a fair look at the Turkish community in Germany and their reactions to any strains in the relationship.

PPS: If this takes too much time to answer I dont blame you, you have made your point clear, we disagree :) I still want to let you know that I respect (mostly ^^) your opinion and that I enjoyed the discussion with you :)

[dttk0009]

This request is hilarious.

[JJHH]

09:39, March 30, 2010

Merkel softens stance on Turkish schools in Germany

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Monday that Turkey can have schools in Germany but it should not be a reason for Turkish people living in Germany not to learn German.

Source: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6934405.html

[Breakfast in Vegas]

....edited for me being worng content.

[Difool]

You just have to be rude to a German chancellor to get her working like you want her to. :( Rückgratloses Pack!

[Breakfast in Vegas]

09:39, March 30, 2010

Merkel softens stance on Turkish schools in Germany

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Monday that Turkey can have schools in Germany but it should not be a reason for Turkish people living in Germany not to learn German.

Source: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6934405.html




You just have to be rude to a German chancellor to get her working like you want her to. :( Rückgratloses Pack!x2.

She did backstep a bit.

Typical.

[JJHH]

Didn't expect this. Not from the CDU.

[toki]

09:39, March 30, 2010

Merkel softens stance on Turkish schools in Germany

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Monday that Turkey can have schools in Germany but it should not be a reason for Turkish people living in Germany not to learn German.

Source: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6934405.html



You just have to be rude to a German chancellor to get her working like you want her to. :( Rückgratloses Pack!

Ähem, i don't know what she was thinking or how serious that source is. It's definitely NOT up to the chancellor to just change the school system.
It's not realistic, it's "Ländersache" anyway and there are laws that say that the public school sector uses the official lanaguage.

IMHO some journalist simply did what they do best, taking things out of context.

[turkson76]

third generation does not speak with an accent but they don't speak German as eloquent and learned as it could be. These two are different.
Schwarzenegger speak with an accent but speaks a fine English, as far as I am concerned.
In the case of Turks, for they are not sufficiently educated in Germany, they speak like they are on a constant Jerry Springer show.

[turkson76]

You just have to be rude to a German chancellor to get her working like you want her to. :( Rückgratloses Pack!
that works almost everywhere if you are jockeying for more power on international political fora.

[Hyde]

Your first point: If somebody has no wish to ever obtain the German citizenship, I very much ask myself why he wants to live permanently in this country. If somebody doesnt want to live here permanently, why give him the right to vote ? A Canadian, American, Turk or whoever is hardly excluded from the German society if he speaks good German and tries to make contact with Germans. 2nd point: I pay 250 € a year alone for my fishing permit ! ... 1000 € is hardly a barrier if somebody wants to obtain citizenship here. I get that sum for a bad payed 4 week production job to get my 650€ University payments together every summer and winter term break. I feel I can also demand that from others for such an important things as to change your nationality !

There is no legal nor moral obligation to obtain the German citizenship if one wants to stay here permamently. Wanting to live here permamently doesn't mean that someone has the wish to become "German" or change his nationality. There are plenty of Germans who work in Asia, Switzerland, Austria, Canada, USA etc.. and live there permamently and they don't change their nationality either. I gave you a good list of reasons why someone wouldn't feel the need to change his citizenship.

Also, in the eyes of Germans, even with a German citizenship you are still and will always be a foreigner, if you ever appear in the press you will not be called German but "German with a migration background", even if you grandparents were the ones who imigrated to Germany.

Also, since you are so wild about them getting the German citizenship, what would you or the German society gain from it? Would it change anything for you? As I know the common German with a similar logic to yours, most of them would just begin to claim that the Left wins just because of the foreigners who want to keep their state payments flowing and crap like that. This "discussion" with you really is pointless. I perfectly explained things to you, but you refuse to understand them.



So you blame the existance of such Areas entirely on the German bad will to keep "these evil foreigners" away ?No I do not. I was very precise, learn to read instead of using your imagination and getting yourself all worked up.



As I see it most of the "foreigners" move exactly into these Areas out of 2 reasons: economic constraints and the want to live near other People of the same ethnicity. Which is nothing that I dont understand, but this is what creates the real problem: People are not forced to speak German, but can have their own media (Turkish newspapers, Internet, Communities talking in turkish only , and absolutely no need to ever talk to a German

They move there because the rent is low and they can't afford the rent in better areas. It's pretty simple.

Have you ever watched one of the "Auswanderer" (Emigrant) Shows? Have you noticed what the first thing is the Germans who emigrate (to the USA, Canada, Spain, Italy, Africa, Asia etc.) do? Look for other Germans. They look for German stores, they look for German newspapers, they look for other Germans to befriend etc etc.
For me, watching these shows is so comical because of the irony. Imagine it...you watch the news, see German politicians and whoever complain about foreigners and integration and them being unwilling to integrate etc... and then you switch the channel and see how German emigrants are desperately looking for other Germans in their area. It's just human nature, to stick to what's familiar and known, and it's ironic that people go against something that is just in human nature and which even you and your fellow countrymen do when they imigrate to another country.



"Asylbewerber" are completely out of the question, because they are not allowed by law to work. So what is your differentiality of foreigners and immigrants, since you stressed that you are not talking about foreigners. They are the same thing, you know?



Each of that is a special case. In my opinion the rules for "Angeheiratete" works, there are plenty cases of fraud (Scheinehen) but Germany can live with that - and Germans are involved in these crimes, so there is no reason to point a finger. So if Germans are involved in it it becomes okay?



Why would I move to any of these countries without taking a proper language course before ?Because you got a job there while you were unemployed in Germany for years? Just turn on the TV, there's everything you talk about so sappy being done by your fellow German emigrants on an everyday basis. It's obvious that you have never had contact with reality, as otherwise you wouldn't talk like and say things like that. Sadly, I've encountered dozens of people like you lately, villagers and small-towners I could deal with, but there are even people from cities like Berlin who really should know better but to spread their ignorant nonsense.



Yes, and according to the RWI, the 7 million "foreigners" in Germany even produce a surplus of 15 billion € (that they contribute more into the German social system than what is payed to them.) I dont question that, however if the rest of the Germans would produce an equal surplus output, our state would be simply bankrupt, given a current budget of +325 billion €. That is also a fact. Yes, Germans are awesome, Foreigners are not. :roll:

Seriously, do you even think about what you write? The German budget is also created by Multi-million Euro companies like BMW, Siemens, Porsche, Mercedes, Lufthansa, Adidas, Deutsche Bank and a hundred others. And I don't really think foreigners own any of them. If you really want to compare the "output" of Germans and Foreigners you would have to compare the small and family businesses held by private owners and crush the numbers down to get to a position at which you can compare them, but you are not able to do that.
And I'm not even gonna go into explaining you what kind of jobs foreigners work and what kind of businesses they mostly run. All I'm gonna tell you is:
The budget is not created by "the Germans creating a higher surplus output", as you are trying to display. That has nothing to do with nationality, what is wrong with you? Use your brain for pete's sake.



Yes, its my humble opinion that to pay for all the lazy (purely German) douchebags of today, funding the rebuilding of East Germany and the European Union is for the moment enough burden for Germany. But I have never questioned that Germany has a need for highskilled workers, wherever they may come from ! But every single "immigrant" without proper German skills and University degree or similar education will have to succeed against ~ 4 million other jobless People. At least if they dont open their own business.You are confusing immigrants from 40,30,20 years ago with new immigrants, most of the people without a job are here for 20 or more years, there are not so many uneducated immigrants arriving these years.



That is a "Einzelschicksal". No it is not. Just because I gave you a particular example doesn't make it an individual case, it's the rule rather than the excetption. But I realize that you don't want to see that and like you thinking that foreigenrs all end up with 9 grades of school and without a job because they are stupid and don't want to integrate and whatever bullshat you wrote.



I live directly next to an Iranian family that moved here after the Iranian Revolution 1979. Father is a dentist, the mother worked as a secretary for an Oil company in Iran and in Germany changed to his medical practice. I grew up with their 2 daughters (same Kindergarten, same School (in the end) who both completed their studies while Im still at them :) , one is already working as a Doctor in Berlin herself the other is just taking a sail around the World with her German Boyfriend ... And whenever I greet the old Doctor when he passes by with his Porsche, I feel that the talk about "unfair chances" is highly exeggerated and more running around the lines of EDUCATION rather than racism is schools ! He came here as a dentist. He didn't have to become a dentist here.And it's natural that high achieving parents push their kids to study and do better to achieve better, just as in the case I told about, also if they are well-off, like the doctor of yours, they live in better neighbourhoods and have less contact to under-achieving kids of uneducated immigrants, so they don't get pulled down, but kids of uneducated immigrants get pulled down because they hang out with people who are like them and around them, and the school system makes it extremely hard for them to make it when they are old enough to know their priorities.

And I particulary said that it shouldn't serve as an example of racism in schools but of a failed school system. A lot of parents of immigrant kids are not high achievers and came here as cheap uneducated workers, they can't be compared to a doctor-immigrant. And as such they won't know how to complain when their kids get sorted out and thrown in the trash, they won't even know what happened and maybe be mad at the kids for not doing good at school, and they also don't know how to push them to study or help them studying as they themselves have only 8 or less years of school in many cases.

The example I gave you applies to at least 60% of immigrants, and especially to the ones you are complaining about, while your example applies to maybe 15% of immigrants and doesn't concern the ones you were complaining about. You can't complain about one type of people, and when I explain you why they are how they are, switch the subject and tell me how the rich doctor could make it as an immigrant. You are just evading reality, you do realize that?


But as I said, this is really going wrong in Germany for all People living here including Germans.That's what I'm saying. Just that in Hauptschule, the classes are made up from 50 or 70 % immigrants while they present 10% of the population. Everyone should be able to see that there has to be something wrong there.



And you dont seem to able to accept that somebody can have differend perceptions of a society That's the problem. You have a "perception", influenced by what the media is telling you and some disconnected view on things that you don't know a thing about. I on the other hand know what I'm talking about and am telling you what the reality looks like. So, no, I don't accept that somebody can have a different "perception" of the reality when I know how it looks like and his "perception" is ignorant and plain wrong.


than "multiculti" society ignoring all the problems.I am not ignoring the problems, I am exactly telling you where the problems are. You on the other hand see the foreigners (or immigrants, same thing) as the problem and unrealistically criticize things without seeing neither the cause nor a solution. All you see is that you "don't like this and that" and that seems to be your main point. Well, thanks for letting us know. Take a seat there, in the corner with all the other Stammtisch Laberer, Kneipen Alkis, DVU/NPD Wähler, Bild-Zeitung readers, Hartz4 guys who complain about foreigners getting Hartz4 and taking away their jobs, the stupid villagers on universities who are uncomfortable if they see a person of colour and the rest of the bunch...you get the idea: People who don't know what they're talking about, but are still rambling on.



Since we didnt have much success with "integration" and now you even start to argue that there can be integration into this society while keeping a foreign nationality for all times, I can only say I see it differend.Because you don't know ****. That's why.

A piece of paper doesn't define how someone behaves, and there are plenty of people with German passports who are not "integrated" (stupidest invention ever btw, because in the cases you refer to it, what you call for is assimilation, and you want people to actively engage in doing so, which is even more stupid, but you'll figure that out in some 20 years when you start wondering about why your plan of "integration" from the early 2000s has failed) and there are people without German passports who are perfectly integrated into the society and are indistinguishable from Germans, speak normal perfect German. So, having the citizenship or not doesn't change anything.



PPS: If this takes too much time to answer I dont blame you, you have made your point clear, we disagree :) I still want to let you know that I respect (mostly ^^) your opinion and that I enjoyed the discussion with you :)That's nice. Sadly I can't say the same about you, as I have heard your opinion so often and by people who I don't think you would like to count yourself to, that it just annoys the crap out of me to try to explain them a little bit about reality and make them see that their "opinion" is neither an opinion nor backed up by anything nor intelligent nor serving a point.

[Thugut]

Why would germany want to have a "little Turkey" in it?
If the Turks don't plan on becoming German citizens, then why don't they go home?

Assimilation or a ticket back home.

[coltfan111]

He really is a walking,talking facepalm.

[dttk0009]

I don't see a problem with permanent residency or long term work permit stay in Germany without citizenship. I'm doing the same thing in Thailand as a German citizenship. But that does not mean there should be Turkish public schools. The thought is completely absurd. If I went to the Thai government and asked for a government funded German school they would laugh at me. If you are a foreigner thinking about acquiring German citizenship then you had better be prepared to learn some German and get used to the German education system or enroll your kids in one of the multiple private schools that speak Turkish. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Difool]

Why would germany want to have a "little Turkey" in it?
If the Turks don't plan on becoming German citizens, then why don't they go home?

Assimilation or a ticket back home.

There already is "Little Turkey" and that's why Germans are so sensitive when it comes to the education topic.

[tluassa]

@ Marecar

"Also, in the eyes of Germans, even with a German citizenship you are still and will always be a foreigner, if you ever appear in the press you will not be called German but "German with a migration background", even if you grandparents were the ones who imigrated to Germany. "

So here we have it directly, the Germans are all evil xenophobic People, not better than the Nazis :)

Im out :)

[toki]

third generation does not speak with an accent but they don't speak German as eloquent and learned as it could be. These two are different.
Schwarzenegger speak with an accent but speaks a fine English, as far as I am concerned.
In the case of Turks, for they are not sufficiently educated in Germany, they speak like they are on a constant Jerry Springer show.
Not all, but I would call it accent when some Turks who were born here with their parents raised here still can't ****ounce the ch and have their very own ****ounciation in general. Third generation immigrants should speak 100% native German, but since many families continue 100% turkish at home and social life, the standard of spoken German will remain like that of a first generation immigrant.
The turks who speak 100% native have parents who use it at home.

It's quite sad actually. Language = chance.

And Turks have more problems with language than other immigrant groups, since they have a bigger community.

[JCR]

Not all, but I would call it accent when some Turks who were born here with their parents raised here still can't ****ounce the ch and have their very own ****ounciation in general. Third generation immigrants should speak 100% native German, but since many families continue 100% turkish at home and social life, the standard of spoken German will remain like that of a first generation immigrant.

It's quite sad actually. Language = chance.

Alder isch find den auch furchtbar.
Strangely "real" turks (who were born and raised in turkey and only came to Germany as adults) seem to have a totally different accent and generally seem to be more integrated and successful.

[toki]

Alder isch find den auch furchtbar.
Strangely "real" turks (who were born and raised in turkey and only came to Germany as adults) seem to have a totally different accent and generally seem to be more integrated and successful.
It's not "Alder" here, lol. somewhat they mix the local German dialect with their turk slang. It's "watt denn, Alta isch...". Ever heard a Pfälzer turk? LOL

I have a friend who moved here 3 years ago. Young opera singer from Istanbul, Günes. He despises the Turks here and doesn't have any Turkish friends in Germany. Only Turks who moved here in a similar job related situation. He pretty much sees them as 'sub-turks'. You can see it in his eyes. "Anatolian dirt".

[JCR]

Yes, I know quite a few Jurists or medical doctors as well, who just studied here.
Strangely their german accent is markedly different, a lot softer. Especially the can ****ounce the ch and don't say "isch"...
Best example is a friend of mine, pretty much the antithesis of every turk cliche, a turkish goth girl! ;)
She just finished medicine and is writing her dissertation on something I don't understand...

[Alex G]

Why would germany want to have a "little Turkey" in it?
If the Turks don't plan on becoming German citizens, then why don't they go home?

Assimilation or a ticket back home.

You know that assimilation is not the same as integration? NOONE likes assimilation.

[Gammelpreusse]

@ Marecar

"Also, in the eyes of Germans, even with a German citizenship you are still and will always be a foreigner, if you ever appear in the press you will not be called German but "German with a migration background", even if you grandparents were the ones who imigrated to Germany. "

So here we have it directly, the Germans are all evil xenophobic People, not better than the Nazis :)

Im out :)


He is not entirely wrong, though. There are enough examples of germans with a turkish migrant background(!) just being taken as who they are, Cem Özdemir beeing a prime example. But terms like "germans with turkish background" or outright "turks", or "young turks", often observed in those certain lower channel private channels, are mentioned at least as much. The use is incredible versatile, sometimes trying to have an objective look at conditions, sometimes downright degatory.
In my company there is a turk working who is the total opposite of the typical cliché turk, a highly intelligent gamer nerd. Great and always good mooded dude. However, even he has to deal with his background on a regular basis, always in good spirit, but the regularity of the topic makes it peak out.
This is not 80ies Germany anymore when it comes to political correctness. As such I can understand the frustration of those germans that just want to make a living and impact here, without any problems with either the Grundgesetz or german society in general. Those unvoluntarily become target of the broader debate as well, and that must pretty much suck for these folks, or at least it would for me. The negative sides of the debate should be quite a lot more focussed on those groups that have most problems, and as they obviously are not capable to get a grip on life here on their own, we simply do not have a choice but to prepare the conditions to get them in, even if that means compromise and costs.
The alternatives are either deportation out of the country back to Turkey or acceptance of ever growing criminal activity and animosity french style.

I am not trying to distract from the fact that we have a problem, but I feel the positive sides of immigration are vastly undervalued in this debate.

[IconOfEvi]

Well if Germans are looking for places to bond with outside Germany, can't get much easier than here in Wisconsin :D. I mean come on.

Also, a good sign an immigrant population isn't assimilating in Europe is to drive by the ghettos or wherever they live and look at the tenement buildings. Than count the numbers of satellite dishes.


Essentially, the majority of them are waiting until they ARE the majority. And assimilation won't happen because Euroweenies are scared of being called racist or anything. Hell, even we are. We don't assimilate as well as we used to in the US, but somehow, it still happens much more effectively.