Russia’s Western Outpost

[Ordie]

Restlessness in Russia’s Western Outpost
By MICHAEL SCHWIRTZ
KALININGRAD, Russia — Amid the sagging Soviet-era apartment blocks and hulking government buildings here, it can be difficult to imagine that this was once a German city graced with gingerbread-style facades and Teutonic spires.

About all that remains of the 700-year-old city once called Königsberg — which was bombed to oblivion in World War II, then taken over by the Soviet Union and renamed in 1946 after the death of a Bolshevik hero, Mikhail Kalinin — are some weathered houses and a few reconstructed cathedrals. But that does not mean residents of this island of Russian territory wedged between Poland and Lithuania do not entertain certain European expectations.

“I would like to bring Königsberg back to Europe,” Rustam Vasiliev, a local blogger and political activist, said, intentionally using the former German name of this city. “I’ve got no Kremlin in my head.”

Continued:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/world/europe/26kaliningrad.html?scp=1&sq=kaliningrad&st=cse

[Russianlynxy]

cry me a river. It's our territory.

[Derbedeu]

cry me a river. It's our territory.

x2

Who gives a **** about the people in Kaliningrad and what they want. They're such selfish bastards. http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3660/shake.gif (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/shake.gif/)

They better do what the Kremlin tells them, whether they like it or not. http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9497/yes.gif (http://img73.imageshack.us/i/yes.gif/)

Or else http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2136/gunz.gif (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/gunz.gif/)




This post might contain some sarcasm.

[JCR]

They should apply for membership in the federal republic of Germany
Bundesland Ostpreussen?
:D

Seriously, Kaliningrad seems to have a "colour" thing going on...

[Noons86]

According to the New York Times, Kaliningrad is to become a casino row.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/world/europe/29casinos.html

Clever way to bring more Euros into Russia.

[sepheronx]

x2

Who gives a **** about the people in Kaliningrad and what they want. They're such selfish bastards. http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3660/shake.gif (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/shake.gif/)

They better do what the Kremlin tells them, whether they like it or not. http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9497/yes.gif (http://img73.imageshack.us/i/yes.gif/)

Or else http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2136/gunz.gif (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/gunz.gif/)




This post might contain some sarcasm.


Really? How many of these people are then in support of such an idea? Just because some douchebag blogger said so?

Anyway, if Russia gives up Kaliningrad, then it gives up a strategic location. Which wont happen.

[Russianlynxy]

x2

Who gives a **** about the people in Kaliningrad and what they want. They're such selfish bastards.


Supporting any kind of separatism in Russia has been a-la-mode lately, I know. But grappling at some senile idiot on the internet is hardly a good example of "what the people want" :)
I remember people screaming "REVOLUTION" on internet including mp.net when there were protests in Kaliningrad, which were about money and frustration with local authorities...

I know it's annoying for some people that Russia has territory smack-dab in the middle of Europe, but it's too bad you're going to have to deal with it. Germany has no territorial disputes with Russia over it, so I don't understand what the deal is. And the whole "Kaliningraders" want to be closer to Europe ordeal is just BS, deserves no better explication.

On Topic: Since Casinos have been banned in most Russian cities, it would in fact be a good idea to bring them to Kaliningrad. It's isolated, would bring wealth to the city through tourism and gambling.

K-Grad is actually quite a beautiful city...

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4716/img6448t.th.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/img6448t.jpg/)

http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/4315/5750Kaliningrad.jpg

P.S. And YES I do have a personal bias regarding Kalinigrad. Both great-grandfathers fell there during WWII.

[sepheronx]

^^

Yeah. It is funny how when there is one person that uses a blog to voice their opinion, people here will go "Oh, it is just one douche with a blog". But once that person voices their opinion that meets the interest of these people on this site and many others, it becomes the "voice of the people".

[AlexMartin2]

It is crazy just discuss this article. Some idiot blogger and idiotic newspaper.

[JCR]

New houses inspired by prussian renaissance, nice.
Btw, the ship on the Pregel (how's that river named now?) is ex german as well,
famous Soviet research vessel based on a converted 1930s build german freighter.

[sepheronx]

New houses inspired by prussian renaissance, nice.
Btw, the ship on the Pregel (how's that river named now?) is ex german as well,
famous Soviet research vessel based on a converted 1930s build german freighter.

For good reasons. Germans make good stuff :)

[Boxed_Wine]

What are the elasticities of its residents?

[Russianlynxy]

What are the elasticities of its residents?

what does that mean?

[Alex G]

Actually you can understand what you should think about that blogger as he said they they live outside Russian and inside EU borders, like as if he was saying that they are in separate state.

[Afro-European]

Do residents of Kaliningrad feel more Europeans than Russians? (by that i mean due to their proximity to Europe)

[sepheronx]

Do residents of Kaliningrad feel more Europeans than Russians? (by that i mean due to their proximity to Europe)

more likely, they are the people who think that Russia is part of Europe, and not Asia.

[Alex G]

Do residents of Kaliningrad feel more Europeans than Russians? (by that i mean due to their proximity to Europe)

Do people in Hawaii feel more asian? As if it matters, they are part of US as Kaliningrad is part of RF.

[Ataman]

The blogger's name is RUSTAM?


Do residents of Kaliningrad feel more Europeans than Russians? (by that i mean due to their proximity to Europe)

I got a lot of relatives in Kaliningrad and they would probably laugh about such a question because there's no contradiction. They're both. Ordinary Russians. They we're hit by the economic crisis, that's all. No separatist feelings and no wish to become part of the EU.

[Panchito12]

I love the title "Russia's Western Outpost". Regardless of Russia's physical location, this title re-enforces what is in the mind of most westerners: Russians have too many ties to the East to be considered Westerners.


Do people in Hawaii feel more asian? As if it matters, they are part of US as Kaliningrad is part of RF.

It's a stretch to call Hawaii "Asian". They're not part of any continent.

[Flamming_Python]

I love the title "Russia's Western Outpost". Regardless of Russia's physical location, this title re-enforces what is in the mind of most westerners: Russians are not Westerners.

It's "Russia's" Western outpost, as in the nation state of Russia, and doesn't neccesserily related to Russians as a people. Russians are no more or less 'Western' than any other Eastern Europeans.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

On Topic: Since Casinos have been banned in most Russian cities, it would in fact be a good idea to bring them to Kaliningrad. It's isolated, would bring wealth to the city through tourism and gambling.

K-Grad is actually quite a beautiful city...

P.S. And YES I do have a personal bias regarding Kalinigrad. Both great-grandfathers fell there during WWII.IIRC, after banning casinos in Moscow etc., the Russian government establlished 5 zones which were allowed to have casinos. This is just as much of an effort to stymie organized crime in Moscow as it is to boost the economies of those regions slated to have casinos. Kaliningrad, Azov (area of Krasnodar/Sochi I think), Nizhny Novgorod, somewhere near Altai and Vladivostok I believe. None of the promised development in these regions has taken place, but presumably it will.

Kaliningrad isn't beautiful at all. The coast is, the rest ain't. British bombs, Soviet artillery and communist city planning made sure of that. Efforts to bring back the Königsberg flair are noble, but are just facade as seen in the pictures. You can't reconstruct the past.

Kaliningrad won't be European anytime soon as it has both natural resources and strategic significance, however much of the youth feels torn between Russia and Europe. They are patriotic and loyal, however it would be wrong to assume they are "normal Russians". That's my impression from spending a fair degree of time there and speaking to many people.

[Ataman]

IIRC, after banning casinos in Moscow etc., the Russian government establlished 5 zones which were allowed to have casinos. This is just as much of an effort to stymie organized crime in Moscow as it is to boost the economies of those regions slated to have casinos. Kaliningrad, Azov (area of Krasnodar/Sochi I think), Nizhny Novgorod, somewhere near Altai and Vladivostok I believe. None of the promised development in these regions has taken place, but presumably it will.

Kaliningrad isn't beautiful at all. The coast is, the rest ain't. British bombs, Soviet artillery and communist city planning made sure of that. Efforts to bring back the Königsberg flair are noble, but are just facade as seen in the pictures. You can't reconstruct the past.

Kaliningrad won't be European anytime soon as it has both natural resources and strategic significance, however much of the youth feels torn between Russia and Europe. They are patriotic and loyal, however it would be wrong to assume they are "normal Russians". That's my impression from spending a fair degree of time there and speaking to many people.

Last time I checked the globe it was European.
Kaliningrad is surrounded by Poland (Eastern European flair) and Lithuania where many people still speak Russian, plus Belarus and Russia aren't very far away. They are no more or less "Western European" (I think that's what you mean when you say "European") in their mind than other Russians. As I said I have a lot of relatives there and the life in Kaliningrad is very Russian.

[Derbedeu]

Really? How many of these people are then in support of such an idea? Just because some douchebag blogger said so?

Anyway, if Russia gives up Kaliningrad, then it gives up a strategic location. Which wont happen.


Supporting any kind of separatism in Russia has been a-la-mode lately, I know. But grappling at some senile idiot on the internet is hardly a good example of "what the people want" :)


You guys crack me up. http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1660/lolb.gif (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/lolb.gif/)

First off, no one is talking about Kaliningrad becoming independent or being annexed by some other power, so put your paranoia aside.

It is clear though that the people of Kaliningrad are somewhat in a precarious situation, being as they are surrounded by the EU. Additionally, like other far off places within Russia such as Vladivostok, they are chaffing under the too-tight control of the Kremlin and policies which while might make sense for Moscow, don't necessarily translate too well on the periphery.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/world/europe/07zones.html?_r=1&scp=5&sq=vladivostok&st=cse

All these people are asking for is a greater say in their domestic affairs. Greater autonomy for Kaliningrad wouldn't be such a bad thing you know.


It's "Russia's" Western outpost, as in the nation state of Russia, and doesn't neccesserily related to Russians as a people. Russians are no more or less 'Western' than any other Eastern Europeans.

There are some major differences actually. Poland, for example, had always been much more involved in European affairs than Russia. Other Eastern European countries also had much greater contact with Western and Central Europe. Let's not forget that Russia showed up rather late to the game under Peter the Great. That's when it truly opened up its borders to the West (along with it, all that it entails, namely greater economical, intellectual, and political intercourse that had been confined to only a few places until then). Up to that point, outside of a few skirmishes with the Poles and the Swedes, and perhaps some ecclesiastical contact with Greece, Russia had remained rather aloof. Being a vassal of the Mongols for a little over two centuries also left an indelible mark on Russia that differed it from the rest of Eastern Europe.

[Panchito12]

I Russians are no more or less 'Western' than any other Eastern Europeans. No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European, and should just say that they're Russian. Period. They fall between East & West and are really different from both. Can you immagine someone named Testikov from Vladivostok say he's European?

[The Dane]

Do people in Hawaii feel more asian? As if it matters, they are part of US as Kaliningrad is part of RF.

Ermm.. no they don't.

[The Dane]

Maybe an automonous province like Greenland is to Denmark?
Could open up some possibilities for both Kaliningrad and Russia.

[Russianlynxy]

Being a vassal of the Mongols for a little over two centuries also left an indelible mark on Russia that differed it from the rest of Eastern Europe.

Not really. This logic is used a lot and has many flaws. Many think contemporary Russians are an off-shot of century-long assimilation by Asiatic hordes. This is not true, look at the phenotype of a typical Russian and for the most part you won't see any traces of Mongol (unless of course you are looking at ethnic groups within Russia which are related to Mongols, i.e. Burjat). You will see Norse, You will see Slav, Even Persian/Sarmatian... but not Mongol. Mongol rule was based on collecting tax from Russian cities (there wasn't even a unified Russia back then really), not assimilating the populace, stealing women, etc...

Russians are different mentally, in some ways, yes. But not necessarily "Asian". Russian is just Russian.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Last time I checked the globe it was European.
.Well yeah. I meant EU or integrated into the fabric of European politics and economy. Like I said, I've been there too.

Indeed, everybody is ethnic Russian but interestingly enough since Kaliningrad was never Russian before 1945, every Russian there is "from somewhere else".

My point was that Kaliningrad is staying Russian.

[Ataman]

Well yeah. I meant EU or integrated into the fabric of European politics and economy. Like I said, I've been there too.

Indeed, everybody is ethnic Russian but interestingly enough since Kaliningrad was never Russian before 1945, every Russian there is "from somewhere else".

My point was that Kaliningrad is staying Russian.

Exactly. And that's another reason why they don't have some kind of special identity.

[LEGEND]

P.S. And YES I do have a personal bias regarding Kalinigrad. Both great-grandfathers fell there during WWII.

My grandmas brother went MIA there in Jan 1945. Last official mention was that he was wounded and sent to a hospital, no more records after that.

[Derbedeu]

Not really. This logic is used a lot and has many flaws. Many think contemporary Russians are an off-shot of century-long assimilation by Asiatic hordes. This is not true, look at the phenotype of a typical Russian and for the most part you won't see any traces of Mongol (unless of course you are looking at ethnic groups within Russia which are related to Mongols, i.e. Burjat). You will see Norse, You will see Slav, Even Persian/Sarmatian... but not Mongol. Mongol rule was based on collecting tax from Russian cities (there wasn't even a unified Russia back then really), not assimilating the populace, stealing women, etc...

Russians are different mentally, in some ways, yes. But not necessarily "Asian". Russian is just Russian.

:roll:

Did I mention phenotype or anything racial at all?

The point still remains that Mongol rule left cultural impacts on the Russians, and in fact Russians were much more influenced by the Mongols in this respect than the other way around. (Russia and the Golden Horde by Charles Halperin pg. 127).

And this is not even counting the economic and demographic impact that the Mongols had on Russia.

[Breerman]

I seem to recall reading Kaliningrad among other things have the highest HIV infection rate in Europe. Not to mention that they have no sewage plants, they just pump their **** straight out in the Baltic Sea. EU need to help with that since that sort of stuff since them not caring affects everyone else in the region. Other than that I say seal it off and let it be.

[skyrock]

No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European, and should just say that they're Russian. Period. They fall between East & West and are really different from both. Can you immagine someone named Testikov from Vladivostok say he's European?

Russia was left out of the Renaissance, which culturally and psychologically separates Russians from the rest Europeans.

Genetically speaking, Russians are quite different from other Europeans as well, especially western Europeans. The following chart shows the father-side genetic markers of Europeans. Western Europeans has a large percentage of R1b (the red), central and eastern Europeans have a large percentage of R1a (the yellow). Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8746/europeangenes.png

[Ataman]

:roll:

Did I mention phenotype or anything racial at all?

The point still remains that Mongol rule left cultural impacts on the Russians, and in fact Russians were much more influenced by the Mongols in this respect than the other way around. (Russia and the Golden Horde by Charles Halperin pg. 127).

And this is not even counting the economic and demographic impact that the Mongols had on Russia.

What impacts? Cuisine? Probably the only one.
I think the people from the Balkans were much more influenced by the Turks than the Russians/Ukrainians by the Mongols/Tatars.
And I don't see how economy and demographichs have anything to do with that.

[Derbedeu]

What impacts?

Go read the book. I'm not cliff notes.

[Ataman]

Russia was left out of the Renaissance, which culturally and psychologically separates Russians from the rest Europeans.

Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, people from the Balkans. Quite a big part of Europe.


Genetically speaking, Russians are quite different from other Europeans as well, especially western Europeans. The following chart shows the father-side genetic markers of Europeans. Western Europeans has a large percentage of R1b (the red), central and eastern Europeans have a large percentage of R1a (the yellow). Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolian and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8746/europeangenes.png

Maybe, just maybe you shouldn't forget that there are so many minorities in Russia and that there's a huge difference between ethnic Russians and other people who live in Russia. I know that many Westerners fail to understand the difference.

Edit: Don't try to act like an ethnologist. Just check the "N" of the Turks, it's almost nothing though they are related closely to the Mongols. Then check where "N" is common. Obviously in the Baltics and in Finland. So they are Mongols then?

[sepheronx]

Go read the book. I'm not cliff notes.

And where do you find your books? A community college in USA? Where you studied Russian history, like you mentioned in the PM's you sent me?

BTW, because you studied Russian history, does not make you even remotely a genius in regards to current events....

[Ataman]

Go read the book. I'm not cliff notes.

So I, as a Russian, should read a book written by a foreigner who explains to ME what we Russians are? Uhm... I think we know it better, but thanks anyway.

[skyrock]

Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, people from the Balkans. Quite a big part of Europe.



Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians shared the Mongolian experience.

Balkans have their other own experience with Turks, which were of Asian origin.

[Derbedeu]

And where do you find your books? A community college? Where you studied Russian history, like you mentioned in the PM's you sent me?

BTW, because you studied Russian history, does not make you even remotely a genius in regards to current events....

Try Columbia University.

And where have I ever professed to be a "genius" on Russian current events?

Perhaps instead of resorting to ad hominid attacks, you out to concentrate on the actual subject and argument at hand. Or is that too hard for you?

[sepheronx]

Try Columbia University.

And where have I ever professed to be a "genius" on Russian current events?

Perhaps instead of resorting to ad hominid attacks, you out to concentrate on the actual subject and argument at hand. Or is that too hard for you?

Or is it too hard for you to comprehend what others say, and not what you believe you where told at Columbia University (I would take the word of a man in the front line compared to a teacher thousands of KM away)? Your usual rhetorics towards Russians is quite annoying really. For an educated man, it is dumbfounding that you would resort to stupid comments. As in your first on this thread.


x2

Who gives a **** about the people in Kaliningrad and what they want. They're such selfish bastards. http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3660/shake.gif (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/shake.gif/)

They better do what the Kremlin tells them, whether they like it or not. http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9497/yes.gif (http://img73.imageshack.us/i/yes.gif/)

Or else http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2136/gunz.gif (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/gunz.gif/)

[skyrock]

Maybe, just maybe you shouldn't forget that there are so many minorities in Russia and that there's a huge difference between ethnic Russians and other people who live in Russia. I know that many Westerners fail to understand the difference.

What is the percentage of ethnic minorities in the whole population of Russia? Is it large enough to explain the large percentage of N marker in the Russian gene pool?

[VPH]

x2
Who gives a **** about the people in Kaliningrad and what they want. They're such selfish bastards. http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3660/shake.gif (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/shake.gif/)
m.

One person does not represent "people of Kaliningrad". Majority of Kaliningrad resident do not wish to leave Russian Federation.

[Ataman]

What is the percentage of ethnic minorities in the whole population of Russia? Is it large enough to explain the large percentage of N marker in the Russian gene pool?

20%.
But how do you explain the even larger percentage of "N" marker in the Baltics and in Finland?

[Flamming_Python]

No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European, and should just say that they're Russian. Period. They fall between East & West and are really different from both. Can you immagine someone named Testikov from Vladivostok say he's European?

Doesn't work that way - mentality is independent of ethnic group. Have you by any chance travelled in any of these states? I have and I can testify that people live pretty much the same, similar culture, outlook, etc... Russians in the Baltic states and natives - pretty hard to tell the difference between them until you talk to them. In fact the whole of ex-Warsaw pact Eastern Europe had a communist generation which was similar in all the countries and the youth nowadays is v.similar across the region nowadays as well.

[sepheronx]

Doesn't work that way - mentality is independent of ethnic group. Have you by any chance travelled in any of these states? I have and I can testify that people live pretty much the same, similar culture, outlook, etc... Russians in the Baltic states and natives - pretty hard to tell the difference between them until you talk to them. In fact the whole of ex-Warsaw pact Eastern Europe had a communist generation which was similar in all the countries and the youth nowadays is v.similar across the region nowadays as well.

Just sucks that their governments are simple minded though. Well, most politicians are.

[Derbedeu]

So I, as a Russian, should read a book written by a foreigner who explains to ME what we Russians are? Uhm... I think we know it better, but thanks anyway.

LOL. Actually there's a chapter in the book that deals with the silence of Russia's writers and intellectuals on the Mongol invasion, and their tactics of eschewing the invasion through silence on the matter as a means to uphold their (Christian) ideology. So while the Chinese had the Mandate of Heaven to explain and cope with their defeats, Russian writers tended to resort to silence and a portrayal of the conflict as a religious one instead of a political one (as that would raise questions of cooperation between the two).


Or is it too hard for you to comprehend what others say, and not what you believe you where told at Columbia University (I would take the word of a man in the front line compared to a teacher thousands of KM away)? Your usual rhetorics towards Russians is quite annoying really. For an educated man, it is dumbfounding that you would resort to stupid comments. As in your first on this thread.

I guess you "missed" this part:

This post might contain some sarcasm.


One person does not represent "people of Kaliningrad". Majority of Kaliningrad resident do not wish to leave Russian Federation.


Reread my second post. For that matter reread the article itself again. No one is saying that Kaliningrad should leave the Russian Federation. Simply that it could do with more regional autonomy.

[sepheronx]

LOL. Actually there's a chapter in the book that deals with the silence of Russia's writers and intellectuals on the Mongol invasion, and their tactics of eschewing the invasion through silence on the matter as a means to uphold their (Christian) ideology. So while the Chinese had the Mandate of Heaven to explain and cope with their defeats, Russian writers tended to resort to silence and a portrayal of the conflict as a religious one instead of a political one (as that would raise questions of cooperation between the two).



I guess you "missed" this part of my post:

This post might contain some sarcasm.




Reread my second post. For that matter reread the article itself again. No one is saying that Kaliningrad should leave the Russian Federation. Simply that it could do with more regional autonomy.

Fine, fair enough.

But as for Kaliningrad getting more regional autonomy, it would work in fixing out their infrastructure problem, and bring more money in via tourism, but it will take a lot of work and time. Besides Moscow, St Petersburg and some various other cities, the rest of Russia is in same position, and in need of upgrading.

[skyrock]

20%.
But how do you explain the even larger percentage of "N" marker in the Baltics and in Finland?

Balkans don't have a large percentage of N. They have a large percentage of J (the light green), which is popular in Turks, and consistent with the fact that they were ruled by Turks for hundreds of years.

Yes, Finns have a large percentage of N, and this should not be a surprise. Finns are originally from Asia, as well as Hungarians; both people speak Asian languages more close to Turkish/Mongolian than to other European languages. .

[Ataman]

Balkans don't have a large percentage of N. They have a large percentage of J (the light green), which is popular in Turks, and consistent with the fact that they were ruled by Turks for hundreds of years.

Yes, Finns have a large percentage of N, and this should not be a surprise. Finns are originally from Asia, as well as Hungarians; both people speak Asian languages more close to Turkish/Mongolian than to other European languages. .

Baltics, not Balkans. What's your explanation?
AFAIK Finnic peoples came much earlier to Europe than Slavs for example. And since most/many of them where assimilated by Russians (there are still many finnic peoples in Russia btw) it sounds more logic to me that the "N" marker came to us because of those Finnic peoples.

[Flamming_Python]

There are some major differences actually. Poland, for example, had always been much more involved in European affairs than Russia. Other Eastern European countries also had much greater contact with Western and Central Europe. Let's not forget that Russia showed up rather late to the game under Peter the Great. That's when it truly opened up its borders to the West (along with it, all that it entails, namely greater economical, intellectual, and political intercourse that had been confined to only a few places until then). Up to that point, outside of a few skirmishes with the Poles and the Swedes, and perhaps some ecclesiastical contact with Greece, Russia had remained rather aloof. Being a vassal of the Mongols for a little over two centuries also left an indelible mark on Russia that differed it from the rest of Eastern Europe.

Yep, but from then on Russia got more involved into European affairs than any other Eastern European state; all of the rest of which ceased to become relevants by that time or were absorbed into larger empires - including Poland which managed to get itself partitioned by the end of the 18th century and ceased to exist as an independent country for 123 years.

In fact - for most of the 19th century Russia was the only sovereign Eastern European state in the world; much less globe-spanning empire. By the middle of the 19th century Russia was acting as a sort of gendarme for much of Europe, supporting unpopular monarchies with its own troops.

In terms of Russian cultural influence on Europe - it was huge; composers, writers, philosophers, poets, etc... and sizeable Russian communities all over Europe; Tsar's royal family connections with other European royal families.

[skyrock]

Baltics, not Balkans. What's your explanation?
AFAIK Finnic peoples came much earlier to Europe than Slavs for example. And since most/many of them where assimilated by Russians (there are still many finnic peoples in Russia btw) it sounds more logic to me that the "N" marker came to us because of those Finnic peoples.

Baltic people (especially Estonians) have gene exchanges with Finns. Finn population have been very small, using Finn assimilation by Russians as an explanation for N marker in the Russian gene pool is a hard-sale.

[tafka10]

While genetics are always fascinating I really dont think they have any significance in this matter.If you look at this genotype map its quite obvious there is a bigger difference between western europe and central/eastern europe
than there is between russia and central europe and i think we can all agree that both western and central europe are both culturally pretty european.These markers just show where we originate from not where we belong
culturally.Culture can spread a lot faster than a gene.And its also incorrect to speak of all russians as one group of people.It a huge country and the origin and culture vary considerably in different parts of it.

[Derbedeu]

But as for Kaliningrad getting more regional autonomy, it would work in fixing out their infrastructure problem, and bring more money in via tourism, but it will take a lot of work and time. Besides Moscow, St Petersburg and some various other cities, the rest of Russia is in same position, and in need of upgrading.

And how do you think it would be best for Russia to tackle such a problem? It just seems to me that too much centralization, particularly of a country as big as Russia, is never a good thing, and in some areas simply impractical. The question then arises, is Russia currently too centralized and Moscow-orientated, in its policies?


Yep, but from then on Russia got more involved into European affairs than any other Eastern European state; all of the rest of which ceased to become relevants by that time or were absorbed into larger empires - including Poland which managed to get itself partitioned by the end of the 18th century and ceased to exist as an independent country for 123 years.

In fact - for most of the 19th century Russia was the only sovereign Eastern European state in the world; much less globe-spanning empire. By the middle of the 19th century Russia was acting as a sort of gendarme for much of Europe, supporting unpopular monarchies with its own troops.

In terms of Russian cultural influence on Europe - it was huge; composers, writers, philosophers, poets, etc... and sizeable Russian communities all over Europe; Tsar's royal family connections with other European royal families.

Yes, but all this came well after the establishment of the Russian ethos, which had already fully formed by Peter the Great's reign. Additionally, Russia lacked the same middle class (in terms of percentage) that you found throughout the rest of Europe, so the extent to which Russia absorbed European ideas was limited to the nobility, much more than it was in other European nations. Part of this again had to do with Russia's size, which meant that European ideas tended to permeate at a much slower pace, and of course serfdom, which was abolished rather late.

There is no denying Russian contributions to Europe, from its artists to its scientists, but there is also no denying that Russia has always been somewhat different from the rest of Europe as well, thanks to its history and its location (straggling both Europe and Asia).

Please note that when I say different, I'm not qualifying that as a bad thing or good thing.

[LineDoggie]

Do people in Hawaii feel more asian? As if it matters, they are part of US as Kaliningrad is part of RF.Consider(for once) Afro-European isn't American. Instead of trying a cheap shot that wont work on him, try having some situational awareness. Frankly isn't the current population mostly Ethnic Russian?(0.6% Ethnic Germans) that sort of answers the issue.

[mrxyz]

Of course this is only anecdotal, but I have communicated with many Russians, from as far west as St.Petersburg, through Moscow, Ekaterinburg, Novosibirsk, Ulan Ude, etc, all the way to Kamchatka, and they all seem just as "european" as any Swede. Only Dagestanis have seemed different (probably more around that region of course). I don't understand the importance of this labelling though.

[Russianlynxy]

Of course this is only anecdotal, but I have communicated with many Russians, from as far west as St.Petersburg, through Moscow, Ekaterinburg, Novosibirsk, Ulan Ude, etc, all the way to Kamchatka, and they all seem just as "european" as any Swede. Only Dagestanis have seemed different (probably more around that region of course). I don't understand the importance of this labelling though. Personally I think it's more ideological than anything. Politicians and historians have played this card for many years to describe that although most Russians are white, speak an Indo-European language, and don't really differ from the average European are somehow "backward" in their mentality and therefore cannot be considered European. This falls in the same line of "West" (which encompasses US, Europe, and even Japan...) vs Russia. "Western" no longer describes a geographic direction but rather a set of values, and mentality. Same way "European" is no longer a location but a "certain way of doing things".

[Hast2]

No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European, and should just say that they're Russian. Period. They fall between East & West and are really different from both. Can you immagine someone named Testikov from Vladivostok say he's European?

Friend, have you ever met a Pole and a Russian ? Or better yet - have you ever been to Poland and Russia ? Same goes to Derbedeu.

84 years of tyranny and almost two decades of chaos, both economical and political, afterwards - main reasons we're having this discussion(general anti-Russian European mentality, thanks to propaganda, which started in 19th century, not helping either). Now, visit any economically-strong region of Russia, could be in Siberia(oil-cities), and then tell me, are those Russians European or not.

And of course they're different, Poles and French are quite different, French and Norwegians are as well, not to tell about Norwegians and Spanish people. So what ?

By the way Derbedeu, Romanians are European ?(just don't tell me fairy-tales - i've studied in Bucharest) While i don't question their place as Europeans, it's just interesting to hear from you how Romanians are and Russians are not. Really interesting.

And again - "I've read a book about". Well, books are great, but if someone will want to hear this author's opinion on the matter, he'll read this book as well. If your opinion is based on someone's else opinion it quite hard to take it seriously. I'm talking about this particular subject, not in general.

[Mango Madness]

Russia was left out of the Renaissance, which culturally and psychologically separates Russians from the rest Europeans.

Genetically speaking, Russians are quite different from other Europeans as well, especially western Europeans. The following chart shows the father-side genetic markers of Europeans. Western Europeans has a large percentage of R1b (the red), central and eastern Europeans have a large percentage of R1a (the yellow). Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8746/europeangenes.png


Western Europeans has a large percentage of R1b (the red), central and eastern Europeans have a large percentage of R1a (the yellow). According to your map, Russians have the equal highest of the yellow.


Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population. Er, according to your map, Finns (Scandinavians) and Balts are more Mongoloid than Russians. You have no idea, do you?

"Haplogroup N Highest frequencies Yakuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts) 75%, Nenets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets) 75%, Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns) 60%, Saami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saami) 40%, Baltic States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_States) 35%. Haplogroup N's highest frequency occurs among the Finnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_peoples) and Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) peoples of northern and eastern Europe, the Ob-Ugric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob-Ugric_languages) and Northern Samoyedic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoyedic_peoples) peoples of western Siberia, and the Siberian Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Turkic_languages)-speaking Yakuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts)."

I looked it up; It's not even present in Mongolians.:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:Mongolians have a large C (light red) and O (blue, present in other asian countries) Haplogroups, totally unrelated to anything in Europe.

[Mango Madness]

And how do you think it would be best for Russia to tackle such a problem? It just seems to me that too much centralization, particularly of a country as big as Russia, is never a good thing, and in some areas simply impractical. The question then arises, is Russia currently too centralized and Moscow-orientated, in its policies?
On the contrary; a large country like Russia should be more centralised. Russia is not centralised enough. It is a federation and not a unitary republic. There are many republics that are specifically for ethnic minorities that are granted huge autonomy, including the ability to have their own Constitution and President as well as official language.

History has shown that the less centralised Russia gets, that's when it starts to disintegrate and internal conflicts occur. Mind you, it's not a Russia problem, ethnic nationalism always flares up in countries when they're given too much autonomy.

[Alex G]

Consider(for once) Afro-European isn't American. Instead of trying a cheap shot that wont work on him, try having some situational awareness. Frankly isn't the current population mostly Ethnic Russian?(0.6% Ethnic Germans) that sort of answers the issue.
Hawaii was taken as an example, because its is too quite far away from mainland, its hard to find another example of land that is not integrated in mainland beside some islands(and hawaii is better example then french or british islands) and Alaska.

[skyrock]

According to your map, Russians have the equal highest of the yellow.

Er, according to your map, Finns (Scandinavians) and Balts are more Mongoloid than Russians. You have no idea, do you?

As for Finns and Baltic people, you have not read all my previous posts in this thread, have you?



"Haplogroup N Highest frequencies Yakuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts) 75%, Nenets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets) 75%, Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns) 60%, Saami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saami) 40%, Baltic States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_States) 35%. Haplogroup N's highest frequency occurs among the Finnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_peoples) and Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) peoples of northern and eastern Europe, the Ob-Ugric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob-Ugric_languages) and Northern Samoyedic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoyedic_peoples) peoples of western Siberia, and the Siberian Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Turkic_languages)-speaking Yakuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts)."

I looked it up; It's not even present in Mongolians.:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:Mongolians have a large C (light red) and O (blue, present in other asian countries) Haplogroups, totally unrelated to anything in Europe.

Mongol invasion of Russia was by led by Mongolians, the invading troops included many tribes of northern Asia and Siberia, the "Mongolian" at that time refers to the union of all these tribes. My first post contains "Mongolians and native Siberians", why did you omit "native Siberians" in your argument?

Buryats is a branch of Mongolians, they have 25% N. For native Siberians, Yakuts have 75% N, Koyaks have 30% N.

[jetsetter]

Interestingly enough the more I read about the Soviet Union the more I despise it. I was actually expecting my feelings to go the other way as they usually do when I become more aware of an entity's history but not so in this case.

[Mango Madness]

^Did you feel the need to post that in two threads?

[jetsetter]

^Did you feel the need to post that in two threads?

I did not know that this thread existed when I posted the other thread earlier. My opinions remain the same and thus are applicable to this topic.

And if anyone is interested here is a link to that topic: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?176717-Deserted-Kaliningrad-in-photos

[Mango Madness]

As for Finns and Baltic people, you have not read all my previous posts in this thread, have you?

Mongol invasion of Russia was by led by Mongolians, the invading troops included many tribes of northern Asia and Siberia. My first post contains "Mongolians and native Siberians", why did you omit "native Siberians" in your argument?

Do you think I'm an idiot? Here is what you said:
"Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population. "

I just showed you that Haplogroup N is not present in Mongolians. Hence you don't know what you're talking about.

[Derbedeu]

Friend, have you ever met a Pole and a Russian ? Or better yet - have you ever been to Poland and Russia ? Same goes to Derbedeu.

84 years of tyranny and almost two decades of chaos, both economical and political, afterwards - main reasons we're having this discussion(general anti-Russian European mentality, thanks to propaganda, which started in 19th century, not helping either). Now, visit any economically-strong region of Russia, could be in Siberia(oil-cities), and then tell me, are those Russians European or not.

And of course they're different, Poles and French are quite different, French and Norwegians are as well, not to tell about Norwegians and Spanish people. So what ?

By the way Derbedeu, Romanians are European ?(just don't tell me fairy-tales - i've studied in Bucharest) While i don't question their place as Europeans, it's just interesting to hear from you how Romanians are and Russians are not. Really interesting.

And again - "I've read a book about". Well, books are great, but if someone will want to hear this author's opinion on the matter, he'll read this book as well. If your opinion is based on someone's else opinion it quite hard to take it seriously. I'm talking about this particular subject, not in general.

Please show me where I have stated that Russians are not European? All I have maintained is that there is a noticable difference between Russia and the rest of Europe, thanks to historical, geographical, political, and social factors. And this difference has been present since the Mongol Invasion. After the fall of the Golden Horde you had numerous restrictions placed on trade and on foreigners (i.e. other Europeans) entering Russia, as well as a resistance to any ideas permeating from there. It was Peter the Great who really opened up Russia to the rest of Europe, and even then there were still some major differences that were evident. For example, by WWI, Russia was the most autocratic nation in all of Europe. All other European nations had by that time accepted the notion of limited monarchies. The Cold War didn't help much either, further alienating Russia from not just Western Europe, but Eastern Europe as well, which resented the communist system imposed on them.

Of course, there is also no denying the millions of Turkic and Caucasian people that the Russian Empire had, and even today, there is something like close to 20 million who still reside within Russia. These people also contributed to Russian culture in numerous ways and have left their mark.

Globalization has had an ameliorating effect on these differences, but they still do exist.*

So while I don't deny that Russians are Europeans, I do see clear differences between the two.

*An Interesting development is Russia's insistence on not joining the EU. I think we'll see an increased divergence between Russia and the EU in the coming decades because of this.


On the contrary; a large country like Russia should be more centralised. Russia is not centralised enough. It is a federation and not a unitary republic. There are many republics that are specifically for ethnic minorities that are granted huge autonomy, including the ability to have their own Constitution and President as well as official language.

History has shown that the less centralised Russia gets, that's when it starts to disintegrate and internal conflicts occur. Mind you, it's not a Russia problem, ethnic nationalism always flares up in countries when they're given too much autonomy.

Interesting outlook. I would like to know if other Russian members agree with you here. I have heard regular Russians who live outside of Moscow often criticize governmental policies as being too "capital-centered".

[skyrock]

Do you think I'm an idiot? Here is what you said:
"Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians, which scientifically confirms the historical genetic instill from Mongols into the Russian population. "

I just showed you that Haplogroup N is not present in Mongolians. Hence you don't know what you're talking about.

You are not aware the fact that the Mogols who invaded Russia were not only today's Mongolians. At that time, Mongols refer to the union of northern Asian and Siberian tribes. Buryats is a branch of Mongolians, they have 25% N. For native Siberians, Yakuts have 75% N, Koyaks have 30% N.

Again, you failed to mention "native Siberians" that I said in my original post.

[Mango Madness]

^Nice try to weasel your way out, but you said "Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians" - it is in some native Siberians, but NOT IN MONGOLIANS. You were wrong, proving that you don't know what you are talking about here.

PS Take a look at a map of the Mongol Empire. Even at its height it didn't cover 90% of Siberia:cantbeli:Yakuts, Koryaks, Evenks and Eskimos are located in Northern Siberia, outside of the Mongol Empire.:cantbeli:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Mongol_Empire_map.gif

PPSS There is no documented of any significant number of non-Mongols in the invasion force.

PPPS (and this is the clicher) So we've already established that there's is no Mongol trace in the Russian haplogroups despite the invasion force was comprised of practically all Mongols - yet the 1 or 2 'native Siberians' in the Mongol invasion force left a large haplogroup trace in Russians? You're an idiot.

[Ordie]

For as large of a country Russia (Former Soviet Union) is, I'm bemused why it still has East Prussia and Sahkhalin Island as the spoils of war.

Even the US, as a major victor of WW2, never claimed German or Japanese territory as its own.

[skyrock]

^Nice try to weasel your way out, but you said "Russians have a large percentage of N (the purple) that is popular in Mongolians and native Siberians" - it is in some native Siberians, but NOT IN MONGOLIANS. You were wrong, proving that you don't know what you are talking about here.

PS Take a look at a map of the Mongol Empire. Even at its height it didn't cover 90% of Siberia:cantbeli:Yakuts, Koryaks, Evenks and Eskimos are located in Northern Siberia, outside of the Mongol Empire.:cantbeli:

You compare maps of different times. Yakuts etc can re-locate.



PPSS There is no documented of any significant number of non-Mongols in the invasion force.

PPPS (and this is the clicher) So we've already established that there's is no Mongol trace in the Russian haplogroups despite the invasion force was comprised of practically all Mongols - yet the 1 or 2 'native Siberians' in the Mongol invasion force left a large haplogroup trace in Russians? You're an idiot.

Buryats is a branch of Mongolians, they have 25% N. They were well documented in the Mongolian history book "Monggul nighucha tobchiyan" written in 1240AD. Buryats were not Mongolian at first, they lived in woods, later were conquered by Mongolians, and became part of it. Read books, idiot!

[Konst]

Interesting outlook. I would like to know if other Russian members agree with you here. I have heard regular Russians who live outside of Moscow often criticize governmental policies as being too "capital-centered".
I live in Southern Ural. And truly believe that centralization in Russia is good. Otherwise, chaos.

[Mango Madness]

You compare maps of different times. Yakuts etc can re-locate.
Yakuts and others have lived in same areas for thousands of years. Shows me proof (won't find it) and stop making things up.


Buryats is a branch of Mongolians, they have 25% N. They were well documented in the Mongolian history book "Monggul nighucha tobchiyan" written in 1240AD. Buryats were not Mongolian at first, they lived in woods, later were conquered by Mongolians, and became part of it. Read books, idiot! Buryats is one group, yet you said there were all these others which I proved were located outside of the Mongol Empire.

You still haven't explained how there's is no Mongol trace in the Russian haplogroups despite the invasion force was comprised of practically all Mongols - yet the 1 or 2 'native Siberians' in the overwhelmingly Mongol-dominated invasion force left a large haplogroup trace in Russians.

[SevernayA]

For as large of a country Russia (Former Soviet Union) is, I'm bemused why it still has East Prussia and Sahkhalin Island as the spoils of war.

Even the US, as a major victor of WW2, never claimed German or Japanese territory as its own.



Sakhalin island was Russia's since 1875. Japan ceded it to and Russia gave japan the Kuril islands. As for East Prussia, Germany invaded and killed 30 million people why shouldn't it have Kalingrad as reperations? I don't know why you put Former Soviet Union in brackets, Russia has been around for a thousand years in various forms, not to mention the Russian Empire was considerably bigger at it's height than the Soviet Union ever was.

[jetsetter]

For as large of a country Russia (Former Soviet Union) is, I'm bemused why it still has East Prussia and Sahkhalin Island as the spoils of war.

Even the US, as a major victor of WW2, never claimed German or Japanese territory as its own.

After World War Two the Soviet Union shipped out all of Germans and imported substantial numbers of Russians. Unlike Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania Kaliningrad is majority Russian in its population. Had various populations not been shipped out the population makeup of the area would not be what it is today.

[Mango Madness]

*An Interesting development is Russia's insistence on not joining the EU. I think we'll see an increased divergence between Russia and the EU in the coming decades because of this.
Russia's insistence of not joining the EU is more to do with viewing itself as a great power rather than cultural factors.

[skyrock]

Yakuts and others have lived in same areas for thousands of years. Shows me proof (won't find it) and stop making things up.

You even said - "Mongol invasion of Russia was by led by Mongolians, the invading troops included many tribes of northern Asia and Siberia". You said it included tribes of northern Asia. Yet we've established that Mongol Empire didn't cover northern Asia.

The area north to China is northern Asia, and it is clearly a part of the Mongol Empire. However, you want to dispute the Mongols did not include northern Asian tribes. Wow...



Buryats is one group, yet you said there were all these others which I proved were located outside of the Mongol Empire.

You did not prove any thing. You compare maps of different times.



You still haven't explained how there's is no Mongol trace in the Russian haplogroups despite the invasion force was comprised of practically all Mongols - yet the 1 or 2 'native Siberians' in the overwhelmingly Mongol-dominated invasion force left a large haplogroup trace in Russians.


Buryats were among the Mongols who invaded Russia, and their N marker appears in the Russian gene pool.

[SevernayA]

After World War Two the Soviet Union shipped out all of Germans and imported substantial numbers of Russians. Unlike Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania Kaliningrad is majority Russian in its population. Had various populations not been shipped out the population makeup of the area would not be what it is today.
You realizethe freedom loving nations of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other countries which are today in the European Union also expelled huge numbers, far surpassing that of Kalingrad, from their territories? Even today Poland and the others refuse to repatriate property to those germans who were expelled.

have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

[Mango Madness]

The area north to China is northern Asia, and it is clearly a part of the Mongol Empire. However, you want to dispute the Mongols did not include northern Asian tribes. Wow...

You did not prove any thing. You compare maps of different times.
Show me sources that show these indigenous peoples lived outside of these areas in that time. Yakuts, Koryaks, etc have lived in these same areas outside of the territory of what was the Mongol Empire for hundreds of years since Russia incorporated them, I'm sure that they lived there back then too.


Buryats were among the Mongols who invaded Russia, and their N marker appears in the Russian gene pools.You didn't answer the question. The invasion force force was overwhelmingly Mongol-dominated. Mongolians have a large C (light red) and O (blue, present in other asian countries) Haplogroups, totally unrelated to the Russian Haplogroups. How then did the Mongols, who comprised the overwhelming majority of the invasion force, not give their C or O haplogroup to Russians yet the 1 or 2 Buryats in the invasion force magically gave their N haplogroup to Russians?

PS Russians got their N haplogroup from their proximity to Finns and Balts.

[Derbedeu]

Russia's insistence of not joining the EU is more to do with viewing itself as a great power rather than cultural factors.

The reasons behind it aren't really that important. I was remarking more on how the future will look because of such a decision.

[artjomh]

SERIOUSLY?

This is the focus of your thread here?

Arguing about Russia's cultural and economic relations with its neighbours based on racial and genetic characteristics?

Jesus F~cking Christ! I can't stress enough how much this little Aryan Appreciation Club of yours freaks me out. And not in a good cuddly way either.

What's wrong with you, people?

[Ordie]

You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar

[AlexMartin2]

Wow, this thread evolved a lot ! :)

skyrock: if you pretend to post some scientific evidence, try to read this paper: http://download.ajhg.org/AJHG/pdf/PIIS0002929707000250.pdf
It clearly shows that all your postings simply wrong. Although I dont think many in Russia cares about which genes they have, Mongol's or Nord's.

Derbedeu: if you pretend to be expert in Russia, try to present some facts. I read you messages and laughing :) I cant even explain why it so amusing. It looks like you know something about Russia, but on the other hand you dont know even basic things.


You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar
Read this paper. Tartar-Mongol genes and Russian genes are not intersect, contrary to popular believes.

[skyrock]

Show me sources that show these indigenous peoples lived outside of these areas in that time. Yakuts, Koryaks, etc have lived in these same areas outside of the Mongol Empire for hundreds of years, I'm sure that they lived there back then too.

"I'm sure" does not prove any thing.



You didn't answer the question. The invasion force force was overwhelmingly Mongol-dominated. Mongolians have a large C (light red) and O (blue, present in other asian countries) Haplogroups, totally unrelated to the Russian Haplogroups. How then did the Mongols, who comprised the overwhelming majority of the invasion force, not give their C or O haplogroup to Russians yet the 1 or 2 Buryats in the invasion force magically gave their N haplogroup to Russians?

PS Russians got their N haplogroup from Finns and Balts.

There were many Mongols invaded Russia, but just a portion of them stayed. Golden Horde that ruled Russia was established by Genghis Khan's oldest grandson, whose father conquered Buryats, and assimilated them. You see, it is not just "1 or 2 Buryats".

Em, you have no problem to accept N marker from Finns and Balts. If you have read my previous posts, you should know Finns were from Asia, and Balts have gene exchange with them.

[jetsetter]

You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar

One of my favorite Napoleon quotes.


You realizethe freedom loving nations of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other countries which are today in the European Union also expelled huge numbers, far surpassing that of Kalingrad, from their territories? Even today Poland and the others refuse to repatriate property to those germans who were expelled.

And many of those nations were under the foot of the Soviet Union. However my statement was an answer as to why Russia has retained ownership of the area.

[SevernayA]

One of my favorite Napoleon quotes.

what do you like about it?

[zg18]

You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar

Find what? Tartar sauce? :roll: :lol:

It's Tatar.

[skyrock]

SERIOUSLY?

This is the focus of your thread here?

Arguing about Russia's cultural and economic relations with its neighbours based on racial and genetic characteristics?


Jesus F~cking Christ! I can't stress enough how much this little Aryan Appreciation Club of yours freaks me out. And not in a good cuddly way either.

What's wrong with you, people?

"Where are you from" is a simple question, but not all people are comfortable with it.

As for Russians and Mongols, whether or not they exchanged genes does not change the fact that both are notorious for geographic expansion and ethnic oppression. Maybe it is just a coincidence.

[Mango Madness]

"I'm sure" does not prove any thing.
The onus is on you to prove your claim and not me buddy, since the logical assumption is that they would have lived where they have for the past hundreds of years.


There were many Mongols invaded Russia, but just a portion of them stayed. Golden Horde that ruled Russia was established by Genghis Khan's oldest grandson, whose father conquered Buryats, and assimilated them. You see, it is not just "1 or 2 Buryats".

Em, you have no problem to accept N marker from Finns and Balts. If you have read my previous posts, you should know Finns were from Asia, and Balts have gene exchange with them. You still have answered the question, nor given numbers of Buryats. During the Mongol occupation of Russia, most of the occupation force were Mongols and not Buryats. How then did the Mongols, who comprised the overwhelming majority of the invasion force and occupation force, not give their C or O haplogroup to Russians yet the 1 or 2 Buryats in the invasion force or occupation force magically gave their N haplogroup to Russians?

[SevernayA]

And many of those nations were under the foot of the Soviet Union. However my statement was an answer as to why Russia has retained ownership of the area.
Even today they don't regard it as wrong, look at the Czech President's condition that he signs the Lisbon treaty - he wanted assurances German's would not be able to claim property that belonged to them prior to their expulsion.

[zg18]

I can't believe how many people here don't know geography & history basics and still continue with their garbage.... First of all, almost all Asian invaders , either Iranic, Turkic ,Ugro-Finnic or Mongol had direct rule over south Russia (which wasn't populated by Slavs at all at the time) and central-eastern Ukraine , center mostly populated with Slavs but east Ukraine wasn't Slavic. So if European-Asians mixed it would be more logical to look Ukraine than Russia, what we today know as Russia has it's foundations in Novgorod Republic and Muscovy , regions far from migration routes ,mostly populated with Slavs that actually mixed and assimilated Finnic tribes with fair degree of mix with Germanic Normans , mixing between relatively modern Russian Slavs and Asians was due to expansion of Russia itself,not the other way around.

[skyrock]

The onus is on you to prove your claim and not me buddy, since the logical assumption is that they would have lived where they have for the past hundreds of years.

You logic is not correct. The residents in Kaliningrad were Germans before 1945. How many of the residents are Germans now?



You still have answered the question, nor given numbers of Buryats. Most of the Mongol yoke that occupied Russia were Mongols and not Buryats. How then did the Mongols, who comprised the overwhelming majority of the invasion force and occupation force, not give their C or O haplogroup to Russians yet the 1 or 2 Buryats in the invasion force magically gave their N haplogroup to Russians?

Your assumption is that Mongol in the 13th century was a single ethic group, but it was not.

[Mango Madness]

One of my favorite Napoleon quotes.

what do you like about it?
Considering his other posts, he likes it because Russians=Mongolians is a favourite ethnic slur against Russians.

[Mango Madness]

You logic is not correct. The residents in Kaliningrad were Germans before 1945. How many of the residents are Germans now?
German residents in Kaliningrad were deported. No similar event was recorded to Yakuts and the others, you're saying that Yakuts and others naturally moved. So the onus is on you to prove your claim and not me, since the logical assumption is that they would have lived where they have for the past hundreds of years.


Your assumption is that Mongol in the 13th century was a single ethic group, but it was not.You have yet to produce a single source for your assertions, I won't hold my breath waiting for a source for this claim. The fact is you began your racist hypothesis by saying that Russians have the N haplogroup "from Mongols", and it was proved that Mongols don't even have the N haplogroup, so you lost all credibility on this issue.

[skyrock]

German residents in Kaliningrad were deported. No similar event was recorded to Yakuts and such, you're saying that Yakuts and others naturally moved. So the onus is on you to prove your claim and not me, since the logical assumption is that they would have lived where they have for the past hundreds of years.

If you want to play logic, let's do it: Yakuts and other joined the Mongols invasion to Russia, and hundreds of years later they had to escape to the northern Siberia because they were afraid of Russian retaliation. Perfect logic, huh?



You have yet to produce a single source for your assertions, I won't hold my breath waiting for a source for this claim. The fact is you began your racist hypothesis by saying that Russians have the N haplogroup "from Mongols", and it was proved that Mongols don't even have the N haplogroup, so you lost all credibility on this issue.

I have proved Buryats were not Mongols at first, and they became part of Mongols after being conquered. This event was well documented, and you want to dispute it. Where is your credibility?

[Arbody]

I have proved Buryats were not Mongols at first, and they became part of Mongols after being conquered. This event was well documented, and you want to dispute it. Where is your credibility?
That is your first true statement and belive me I know what I'm saying. And " they became part of Mongols after being conquered" is a half true

[skyrock]

Wow, this thread evolved a lot ! :)

skyrock: if you pretend to post some scientific evidence, try to read this paper: http://download.ajhg.org/AJHG/pdf/PIIS0002929707000250.pdf
It clearly shows that all your postings simply wrong. Although I dont think many in Russia cares about which genes they have, Mongol's or Nord's.

Derbedeu: if you pretend to be expert in Russia, try to present some facts. I read you messages and laughing :) I cant even explain why it so amusing. It looks like you know something about Russia, but on the other hand you dont know even basic things.


Read this paper. Tartar-Mongol genes and Russian genes are not intersect, contrary to popular believes.

Thanks for posting the paper written by Russian scientists. Have you actually read the paper? I read it. Contrary to your believes, this paper proves Tatars (they were part of the invading Mongols) are genetically close to both northern and southern Russians, much closer than Finns are. Here is the chart from the paper (Fig. 7), which displays the genetic distances of Russians to other ethnic groups:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7972/tatarsrussians.jpg

This chart is priceless. Russia Strong MPers, cry me a river.

[skyrock]

That is your first true statement and belive me I know what I'm saying. And " they became part of Mongols after being conquered" is a half true

Please look at the above chart. Look how Tatars are genetically close to Russians. Tatars were also a part of Mongols who invaded Russia, do you agree?

[Mango Madness]

If you want to play logic, let's do it: Yakuts and other joined the Mongols invasion to Russia, and hundreds of years later they had to escape to the northern Siberia because they were afraid of Russian retaliation. Perfect logic, huh?
No, because this assumes that Yakuts and others were located within the Mongol Empire back then unlike for the past centuries, which is what the whole argument is about. You still haven't provided source for your claim that Yakuts and others lived outside of the area they've lived in for the past centuries.


I have proved Buryats were not Mongols at first, and they became part of Mongols after being conquered. This event was well documented, and you want to dispute it. Where is your credibility?What are you talking about. You're still dodging the question. You're the one that said Russians get their Haplogroup N from Mongols, whereas when someone actually looked this up and found that Mongols don't even have haplogroup N! (Credibility=lost. The way credibility works is that you lose it when you say stupid things that get proven wrong). The only way this would be true is if Mongols had the N haplogroup back then unlike today, for which you haven't offered any sources.

[skyrock]

No, because this assumes that Yakuts and others were located within the Mongol Empire back then unlike for the past centuries, which is what the whole argument is about. You still haven't provided source for your claim that Yakuts and others lived outside of the area they've lived in for the past centuries.

What are you talking about. You're still dodging the question. You're the one that said Russians get their Haplogroup N from Mongols, whereas when someone actually looked this up and found that Mongols don't even have haplogroup N! (Credibility=lost. The way credibility works is that you lose it when you say stupid things that get proven wrong). The only way this would be true is if Mongols had the N haplogroup back then unlike today, for which you haven't offered any sources.

Lets look at the paper written by Russian scientists. Source: http://download.ajhg.org/AJHG/pdf/PIIS0002929707000250.pdf

This paper proves Tatars (they were part of the invading Mongols) are genetically close to both northern and southern Russians, much closer than Finns are. Here is a chart from the paper (Fig. 7), which displays the genetic distances of Russians to other ethnic groups:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7972/tatarsrussians.jpg

This chart is priceless. Russia Strong MPers, cry me a river.

[Mango Madness]

^The chart doesn't prove your point, what I see is Russians are in the middle of Finns/Balts and Central/East Europeans because they are a mixture of Finns/Balts and Central/East Europeans as the haplogroup chart shows, with North Russians naturally being closer to Finns/Balts than Central/Eastern Europeans, and Central-South Russians naturally being closer to Central/East Europeans as the chart reflects.

[skyrock]

^The chart doesn't prove your point, what I see is Russians are in the middle of Finns/Balts and Central/East Europeans because they are a mixture of Finns/Balts and Central/East Europeans, with North Russians naturally being closer to Finns than Central/Eastern Europeans, and Central-South Russians being closer than Central/East Europeans as the chart reflects.

Did you see Tatars in the chart? They are close to both northern and southern Russians, and they are the closest kin to northern and southern Russians. Do you agree that Tatars were a part of the invading Mongols?

I think the debate can be ended here. For Russian who deny the gene instill from the Mongols (Tatars were part of them), I have to say, the Tatar ancestors of some Russians must roll over in their graves.

Bye bye.

[YevgenyP]

waiting for questions

[zg18]

Did you see Tatars in the chart? They are close to both northern and southern Russians, and they are the closest kin to northern and southern Russians. Do you agree that Tatars were a part of the invading Mongols?

I think the debate can be ended here. For Russian who deny the gene instill from the Mongols (Tatars were part of them), I have to say, the Tatar ancestors of some Russians must roll over in their graves.

Bye bye.

This is unbelievable... :cantbeli:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Kazan_Wars

Have you actually read anything from my post ,or you just like being stupid?

[Mousepad]

For as large of a country Russia (Former Soviet Union) is, I'm bemused why it still has East Prussia and Sahkhalin Island as the spoils of war.

And why we must turn them back? Sakhalin in particular was respoiled from "1905 war" Japanese spoil, anyway both Imperial Japan and Hitler Germany signed Unconditional (I stress that) Surrender, after Unconditional one, you stop being owner of ALL your country previous claims and start from what Victors will give to you, you don't bargain like at simple "Surrender", so on paper we right, morally? Well, i don't think i must remind how and why Soviet troops got in those places?


Even the US, as a major victor of WW2, never claimed German or Japanese territory as its own.

Okinawa was returned to Japan only in 1972 IIRC, and still got quite a base there

Also back in 1973 German foreign minister Walter Sheel (sp) claimed that Germany is against any involvment of Germany and German territory in Arab-Izrael war, and he got quite a harsh reminder from DC that Germany still a subject to Post War Treaty signed by the Allies without any involvment of German officials, so Germany can effectively STFU. Germany regained it's sovereignety only 15/03/91 after "2+4" treaty signed by both East and West Germany, USSR, USA, Britain and France. Before this, Allies could do what they damn please.

[Mousepad]

Restlessness in Russia’s Western Outpost
By MICHAEL SCHWIRTZ
KALININGRAD, Russia — Amid the sagging Soviet-era apartment blocks and hulking government buildings here, it can be difficult to imagine that this was once a German city graced with gingerbread-style facades and Teutonic spires.

About all that remains of the 700-year-old city once called Königsberg — which was bombed to oblivion in World War II, then taken over by the Soviet Union and renamed in 1946 after the death of a Bolshevik hero, Mikhail Kalinin — are some weathered houses and a few reconstructed cathedrals. But that does not mean residents of this island of Russian territory wedged between Poland and Lithuania do not entertain certain European expectations.

“I would like to bring Königsberg back to Europe,” Rustam Vasiliev, a local blogger and political activist, said, intentionally using the former German name of this city. “I’ve got no Kremlin in my head.”

Continued:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/world/europe/26kaliningrad.html?scp=1&sq=kaliningrad&st=cse

So by this logic, if citizens are pissed off by they gov't they must immidiately revolt and succede from it's country. Given impression from this same board, UK and USA must revolt every given sunday.

[Mousepad]

Recently, I started to think quite often, that if not replaced soon, Medvedev will cause Gorbachov-like disasters. Such western-jew payed subversive elements, like this ****ty blogger, must be not allowed to rise their heads.

That exactly what must NOT be done, coz he'll became popular victim, instead give him slogans like "F*CK YOU PUTIN!!!111" and let him roam central Kaliningrad plaza, untill people get tired of his monotone unproductive noncense, maybe he will understand what a tool he is.

[Atlantic Friend]

Recently, I started to think quite often, that if not replaced soon, Medvedev will cause Gorbachov-like disasters. Such western-jew payed subversive elements, like this ****ty blogger, must be not allowed to rise their heads.

"Western-jew paid subsersive elements" that "must not be allowed to raise their heads", nice. So pray tell, how does one prevent Western jews to raise their heads exactly? Camps, maybe? Arbitrary arrests? Jewish stars painted on their doors?

Tell you what, I'm not sure you started to think quite often.

[cordel]

Yes, Finns have a large percentage of N, and this should not be a surprise. Finns are originally from Asia, as well as Hungarians; both people speak Asian languages more close to Turkish/Mongolian than to other European languages. .

Contemporary Russians are a mix of several Slavic tribes with Finnougric tribes that populated the north of the current Russia. In fact, there are a lot of people, especially in the northern part of Russia, who identify themselves as ethnic Russians, but in fact are not Slavic. Your map correctly shows that Russian is mostly Slavic (yellow) with large share of Finnougric (purple).

JFYI, Mongols never settled in Russian lands. Russians pais tribute to their allies Tatars, whose tribes lived (and live now) near Volga long before Mongols came. Ethnically they have nothing in common with Mongols.

Stop playing ethnologist, several smart words picked in Internet don't make you one.

[Arbody]

Please look at the above chart. Look how Tatars are genetically close to Russians. Tatars were also a part of Mongols who invaded Russia, do you agree?
Ohh dude read my second location , yeah it's Irkutsk , now try to convince me to your theory (and yes lot of your information is corect but, ...i feel that you don't realize what is "Russia"

[Mousepad]

You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar

Actually, it's the other way around

Here's vanilla Tatar

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/3253.jpg

Here's modern day ones

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/tatary.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/98619.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/cf52577b2a0a15b718b13de0639ab686.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/--135.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/f056dae3b40c.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/f_12166280.jpg

/closet nazi mode off/

I kinda fail to grasp, what so bad about Russian divercity, that every time threads like this surface? Over centuries Russia profited enormously coz of this.

[AlexMartin2]

Thanks for posting the paper written by Russian scientists. Have you actually read the paper? I read it.
Contrary to your believes, this paper proves Tatars (they were part of the invading Mongols) are genetically close to both northern and southern Russians, much closer than Finns are. Here is the chart from the paper (Fig. 7), which displays the genetic distances of Russians to other ethnic groups:

This chart is priceless. Russia Strong MPers, cry me a river.

Incredible. You said you read the paper. Did you miss an introduction to this paper? Or you saw one chart and jump to conclusion without even understanding what was shown? :)
Are you sure you know what modern Tatars are, and what difference between them and Tatar-Mongols who lived in 12-14 centuries?

It looks like it is pointless to discuss it anymore. This forum definitely not for scientific arguing, when I see such arrogance.

[dies irae]

No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European, and should just say that they're Russian. Period. They fall between East & West and are really different from both
Personally, I feel Poland have more cultural and historical ties with Russia and Ukraine, than for example with France or England.
Just my point of view. My family came from the eastern borderlands (Kresy) so it may look a little different than in western Poland.

[cordel]

I suppose all that talks about Russian being 'not Europeans' and 'Mongols' is just a modern incarnation of Nazi 'white Arian' sh1t. People who now talks about 'Europeans' seventy years ago would talk about 'Arians'. Fashion changed, but mentality remained the same.

[Mango Madness]

i suppose all that talks about russian being 'not europeans' and 'mongols' is just a modern incarnation of nazi 'white arian' sh1t. People who now talks about 'europeans' seventy years ago would talk about 'arians'. Fashion changed, but mentality remained the same.
2x. Add skyrock, Panchito12, Ordie and jetsetter to your racists list gentlemen.

[So...]

No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European

Good God....

The hard on that Panchito has for Russia, and now this. Makes me wonder, maybe he worships Hitler as well. Would not be surprised......

[LineDoggie]

Recently, I started to think quite often, that if not replaced soon, Medvedev will cause Gorbachov-like disasters. Such western-jew payed subversive elements, like this ****ty blogger, must be not allowed to rise their heads.
Yes, it's always the Jews, too bad You cant have Pogroms anymore eh?

[Flamming_Python]

WTF does genetics have to do with anything?

Genetically ethnic Russians are mixture of Slavs, Finno-Ugrics as well as plenty of other non-European populations; Turkic groups, Caucasians, Jews, etc... which historically intermarried with Russians in high numbers. Cultural influence came from many sources, from Vikings to Byzantines to Mongols to Western Europeans.

I myself am part Russian, part Jewish, part Polish and probably have some Romanian and Iraqi somewhere down the line.

You look at any group in Europe and many are not 'entirely European'. Spanish and Italians (esp. southern) have plenty of admixture with Semetic populations, ditto for Balkans people and Turks, etc... Uralic invaders such as Finns and Hungarians aren't even from Europe.

[LineDoggie]

Good lord, Look at the Strong Crew.....


Good God...The hard on that Panchito has for Russia, and now this. Makes me wonder, maybe he worships Hitler as well. Would not be surprised..... .


Recently, I started to think quite often, that if not replaced soon, Medvedev will cause Gorbachov-like disasters. Such western-jew payed subversive elements, like this ****ty blogger, must be not allowed to rise their heads.








Anyone who doesnt slavishly agree with them is a Hitler worshipping Aryan, or paid by western Jews. They can't even make up their mind which...


So Totally Pathetic over a Non Issue.

[Flamming_Python]

Yes, but all this came well after the establishment of the Russian ethos, which had already fully formed by Peter the Great's reign. Additionally, Russia lacked the same middle class (in terms of percentage) that you found throughout the rest of Europe, so the extent to which Russia absorbed European ideas was limited to the nobility, much more than it was in other European nations. Part of this again had to do with Russia's size, which meant that European ideas tended to permeate at a much slower pace, and of course serfdom, which was abolished rather late.

There is no denying Russian contributions to Europe, from its artists to its scientists, but there is also no denying that Russia has always been somewhat different from the rest of Europe as well, thanks to its history and its location (straggling both Europe and Asia).

Please note that when I say different, I'm not qualifying that as a bad thing or good thing.

You're probably right - ethnic Russians are much more European than not; but Russia is only part European, and more over it's not just the home of ethnic Russians but also hundreds of other peoples.

[Ataman]

Yes, it's always the Jews, too bad You cant have Pogroms anymore eh?

Cheap shot.
Btw, ever heard of George Soros, important guy behind those staged color revolutions? Whether he's a Jew or not, I don't care about that at all. But he's very dangerous.

[b0sco]

Yes, it's always the Jews, too bad You cant have Pogroms anymore eh?

There are no jewish Russians. The crew said so.

[LineDoggie]

There are no jewish Russians. The crew said so.But you can apparently be a Hitler worshipping Western Jew Subversive.....


Go Figure

[Ataman]

Pathetic how the Russia hate crew points out one single post by a guy and acts like he's representative.

[LineDoggie]

Who's a Hater? the One who points out the Bigot, or the Bigot himself?

[Wojtop]

Falming_Python, depends what you mean as European. Russia has different alphabet than most European nations, was never subject of Vatican contrary to most European nations, never experienced a real rule of law in its history contrary to most European nations and never went through European periods of Medieval, Renneissance etc etc as for centuries it was virtually cut out of Europe. Just note that first Russian University (a mean of intellectual exchange, also on international level) has been established in the end of 18th century, hundreds years later than in Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland. Obviously these things pushed Russia out of the track followed by most of European nations for the last 1000 years. Russia is IMO not Asian neither, it's just Russian.

[jetsetter]

2x. Add skyrock, Panchito12, Ordie and jetsetter to your racists list gentlemen.

I think not. The concept of "Race" is an illusion, culture is the defining element. Culture is what makes a people unique. As for the Napoleon quote, I am aware of the various origins of the Russian people but I still like the quote for what it tells about Napoleon.

[Mango Madness]

Good lord, Look at the Strong Crew.....

Anyone who doesnt slavishly agree with them is a Hitler worshipping Aryan, or paid by western Jews. They can't even make up their mind which...


So Totally Pathetic over a Non Issue.
Way to take one antisemitic post by one guy and use it to discredit the attempt by other members to criticise the blatant racism here like "Russian are Mongols", "No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European". You're the pathetic one that has nothing better to do than come and troll every Russia topic like your buddies tweedledum (Danskeren) and tweedledee (Panchito12). Talk about a chip on your shoulder.

[Flamming_Python]

Falming_Python, depends what you mean as European. Russia has different alphabet than most European nations, was never subject of Vatican contrary to most European nations, never experienced a real rule of law in its history contrary to most European nations and never went through European periods of Medieval, Renneissance etc etc as for centuries it was virtually cut out of Europe. Just note that first Russian University (a mean of intellectual exchange, also on international level) has been established in the end of 18th century, hundreds years later than in Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland. Obviously these things pushed Russia out of the track followed by most of European nations for the last 1000 years. Russia is IMO not Asian neither, it's just Russian.

Russia is just Russian - good description.

As for rest - you are confusing several different things. First and foremost, there are 2 traditions from which modern European culture and identity comes from, not just 1.

Alphabet, Orthodox religion, etc... all these things came to Russia from the Eastern Roman Empire; Byzantine. As such Russia upholds Eastern tradition as does Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, etc... which is fitting enough as historically Russia is an Eastern European country. All of what you said about Rennaissance, etc... largely applies to these countries too and together they make up a good fraction of Europe.

Latin, Catholicism, etc... all spread from Rome and they took hold mainly in Western Europe, with only a latter spread towards the East. But nontheless, population and territory-wise Eastern Europe has historically always been majority Orthodox and non-Latin alphabet.

[Hutz]

Yet another Russophobe vs. Russiastrongcrew thread. Remember what happened with Balkan threads........

[The Dane]

Russian exclave of Kaliningrad at forefront of a nationwide protest movement

Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, March 20, 2010


KALININGRAD, RUSSIA -- Almost every Friday for more than a year, a small band of dockworkers, sailors and other stubborn souls has gathered outside the governor's office in this Russian Baltic port to denounce hospital closings and other cuts in health services. Week after week, the governor ignored the protests, which seemed insignificant in the context of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's top-down political system.

But he is not ignoring them anymore -- and neither is Putin.

In recent months, the protesters have joined thousands of others upset by the failing economy here in larger demonstrations against local authorities. In doing so, they have helped thrust Kaliningrad, Russia's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/russia.html?nav=el) westernmost city, to the forefront of a disjointed, nationwide protest movement that has rattled the Kremlin and sent its operatives scrambling to put out political fires across the country.

The protests have mostly been small and focused on regional issues. But because they have taken place in at least a dozen provinces and tapped into shared anger over Russia's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/russia.html?nav=el) worst recession in a decade, many observers are asking if the formula that has kept Putin in power so long -- steady economic growth and tightening political controls -- might be failing.

In an attempt to transform the scattered local outbursts into something bigger, opposition leaders have scheduled simultaneous protests Saturday in more than 20 cities across the country.

The Kremlin has been especially worried about the protests in Kaliningrad, capital of a province of the same name located far from the rest of Russia between Lithuania and Poland, because the public has long viewed the exclave as a symbol of Moscow's ability to deliver prosperity on par with that of the rest of Europe.

In mid-December, 5,000 to 7,000 residents rallied in the city's central square against a host of unpopular decisions by the unelected governor, Gyorgy Boos, including raising a hefty tax on owners of cars, motorcycles and boats. Then in late January, a crowd at least twice as large braved subzero temperatures to fill the plaza again, calling for Boos's resignation and an end to what they called the "monopoly on power" enjoyed by Putin's ruling party, United Russia.

The size of the demonstration, perhaps the largest anywhere in Russia in more than a decade, and the explicit political demands appeared to take the Kremlin by surprise. Organizers have vowed to bring 50,000 people into the streets of this city of 430,000 for their next protest, which had been scheduled for Saturday but has since been canceled, and Moscow has sent a string of senior officials to defuse the situation.

'We were not alone'


For a government accustomed to keeping its critics at odds with each other, the most unnerving development in Kaliningrad may be the emergence of a broad and relatively stable coalition of opposition parties and activist groups.

"We kept coming here and protesting, appealing to the public and to the city. Then we found we were not alone," said Vladimir Ustinov, 67, a retired teacher who took part Friday in the 65th protest outside the governor's office in the past 18 months. "Now, people believe in their own strength, and we're getting closer to victory."

Konstantin Doroshok, 40, a plain-spoken electrician who is the most prominent of the protest leaders here, said Kaliningrad's experience could serve as a model for mobilizing the public against Putin's semi-authoritarian political system elsewhere.

"People have been calling from other regions, asking how they can do the same thing we have done," he said, adding that he tells them to avoid abstract political slogans and to focus instead on bread-and-butter issues.

In Kaliningrad, he said, that means government plans to end subsidies that keep the isolated region competitive; to raise utility fees and the transportation tax; and to shutter public hospitals and clinics, even as unemployment climbs and businesses struggle.

"The opposition in Moscow and other regions can't just talk about freedom and equality," said Solomon Ginsburg, another protest leader.

"They have to talk about the concrete problems that people face, because people are really hurting. Only then will people be interested in democracy."

The protesters have focused their ire on Boos, a Moscow businessman, appointed by Putin in 2004, who is viewed as a corrupt outsider. But they have also held up signs declaring, "Putin is responsible for Boos," and chanted slogans such as, "No to Putin's plan!"

Demobilized veterans of Russia's shrinking Baltic fleet, which is based in Kaliningrad, and small-business owners, who account for as much as 70 percent of the local economy, have been critical to the success of the protests.

"In my work, I have to deal with the government every day, and that means I deal with lawlessness every day," said Alexander Agiyevich, 28, a protest leader who owns and runs an architectural firm.

Another factor is Kaliningrad's geographic location next to Lithuania and Poland, countries with average incomes about 65 and 100 percent higher than in the Russian exclave. Residents also complain about their isolation, arguing that Moscow has done little to persuade their neighbors to grant them visa-free access.

'A good lesson'


The government has responded to the protests with a mix of promises, concessions and threats. Boos has shuffled his cabinet, dismissing the health minister, and pledged to lower taxes and address the opposition's other concerns.

"For us, it's been a good lesson," said Konstantin Polyakov, deputy chairman of the local parliament and a member of the ruling party. "We didn't take all the economic factors into account."

But police have also put pressure on protest organizers, conducting tax inspections and hinting at more trouble if they keep it up.

The approach appears to have bought the Kremlin some time, with Doroshok abruptly canceling plans for the Saturday protest, a decision that has strained the opposition coalition. He said that authorities would allow the protest only in a dangerously isolated location and that a sympathetic official had told him police intended to provoke a deadly clash there and use it to discredit the protesters.

Residents may still take to the streets. But Arseny Makhlov, editor of Kaliningrad's most popular newspaper, said the region has passed a point of no return in any case. "The important thing has already happened," he said. "People have stopped being indifferent."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031904767.html

[ViceStan]

Russian exclave of Kaliningrad at forefront of a nationwide protest movement

Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, March 20, 2010



KALININGRAD, RUSSIA -- Almost every Friday for more than a year, a small band of dockworkers, sailors and other stubborn souls has gathered outside the governor's office in this Russian Baltic port to denounce hospital closings and other cuts in health services. Week after week, the governor ignored the protests, which seemed insignificant in the context of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's top-down political system.

But he is not ignoring them anymore -- and neither is Putin.

In recent months, the protesters have joined thousands of others upset by the failing economy here in larger demonstrations against local authorities. In doing so, they have helped thrust Kaliningrad, Russia's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/russia.html?nav=el) westernmost city, to the forefront of a disjointed, nationwide protest movement that has rattled the Kremlin and sent its operatives scrambling to put out political fires across the country.

The protests have mostly been small and focused on regional issues. But because they have taken place in at least a dozen provinces and tapped into shared anger over Russia's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/russia.html?nav=el) worst recession in a decade, many observers are asking if the formula that has kept Putin in power so long -- steady economic growth and tightening political controls -- might be failing.

In an attempt to transform the scattered local outbursts into something bigger, opposition leaders have scheduled simultaneous protests Saturday in more than 20 cities across the country.

The Kremlin has been especially worried about the protests in Kaliningrad, capital of a province of the same name located far from the rest of Russia between Lithuania and Poland, because the public has long viewed the exclave as a symbol of Moscow's ability to deliver prosperity on par with that of the rest of Europe.

In mid-December, 5,000 to 7,000 residents rallied in the city's central square against a host of unpopular decisions by the unelected governor, Gyorgy Boos, including raising a hefty tax on owners of cars, motorcycles and boats. Then in late January, a crowd at least twice as large braved subzero temperatures to fill the plaza again, calling for Boos's resignation and an end to what they called the "monopoly on power" enjoyed by Putin's ruling party, United Russia.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031904767.html
You are a rather obsessed troll I must say, denouncing any thing pro Russian and personally taking the time to post any article regarding unrest in Russia, I think you might actually have a problem.

[LineDoggie]

Way to take an one antisemitic post by one guy and use it to discredit the attempt by other members to criticise the blatant racism here like "Russian are Mongols", "No, Poles are Westerners and Europeans. Ditto for the Baltic states. Russians are not European". You're the pathetic one that has nothing better to do than come and troll every Russia topic like your buddies tweedledum (Danskeren) and tweedledee (Panchito12). Talk about a chip on your shoulder. On numerous other threads it was pointed out by the Strong Crew members you can't be Russian if you're a Jew.

Kasparov, Russian or Jew?

He is a Russian Citizen and has run for elective Office but the consensus of the crew so far has been has been: Jew, Armenian Jew, not Russian. (Flaming Python being the one notable exception said one indeed can be a Jew and Russian- He at least is not a Bigot)


I find humor in pointing out you bigots when you show yourselves. You're so twisted you went off on me about Mein Kampf being banned without any Comprehension of what I had actually said. Your Hair Trigger response showed the Knee Jerking you are particularly good at. Your immediate Russia Haterz cry doesnt bear up under the truth(not Pravda:lol:).

AS for Being Buddies, I am Friends with Danskeran(in my profile you look at) as we both are wounded veterans, so share some of the same experience.


And I'll add it is a NON-ISSUE as Kaliningrad is populated with mostly Russians now. The Germans are so few it is ridiculous to think they hold the power to return it to Germany.

[The Dane]

You are a rather obsessed troll I must say, denouncing any thing pro Russian and personally taking the time to post any article regarding unrest in Russia, I think you might actually have a problem.

You find it hard to post an article?

[Mango Madness]

I'm a fan of Russians being able to protest and believe they shouldn't have to get permission to hold protests but if you actually bothered to look deeper than you'd know that the "Day of Wrath" protest a was a mega fail, as the opposition newspaper The Moscow Times and other publications said so.

Look at the photo below to get an idea of who was protesting. It's the banned extremist National Bolsheviks. Not exactly in touch with the common Russian.


Rallies Calling for Putin's Ouster Fizzle


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/fa8/front.jpg
St. Petersburg protesters seeking the ouster of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and his government at a Saturday rally, one of about 50 around the country.

About 20,000 protesters denounced government policies and called for Prime Minister Vladimir Putin (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Vladimir_Putin/) to resign at dozens of rallies over the weekend, organizers said Sunday, far less than the tens of thousands of people they had hoped to attract.

Opposition groups had hoped for a large turnout that would increase the pressure on the government after they attracted 12,000 people to a Kaliningrad rally in January that rattled the federal authorities.
But only small crowds showed up for Saturday's so-called "Day of Wrath" protests in about 50 cities, stretching from Kaliningrad on Russia's westernmost edge to Vladivostok on the Pacific coast.
In Kaliningrad, about 5,000 people held tangerines in outstretched hands, chanting for Kremlin-appointed Governor Georgy Boos (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Georgy_Boos/) and Putin to resign, Solidarity (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Solidarity/) leader Vladimir Milov (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Vladimir_Milov/) said. Protesters chose tangerines instead of posters to prevent a police crackdown on the unsanctioned rally, he said. The tangerines also symbolized Boos, and protesters were supposed to crush them afterward.
YouTube footage of the rally showed some protesters wearing facemasks to symbolize a lack of freedom of speech.
Local authorities, who had authorized the January rally, refused to grant permission for Saturday's protest, citing a scheduled agriculture fair. But police officers made no effort to break up the event.
Plans for the protest prompted Boos to hold talks last week with a local opposition leader, Konstantin Doroshok, who heads Solidarity's Kaliningrad branch. Boos agreed to hold a televised call-in show to answer residents' questions, and Doroshok promised to cancel Saturday's demonstration.
The call-in show was held Saturday and lasted about four hours. But Solidarity's main office said the rally would be held because Doroshok had made the promise without its approval.
Solidarity leaders Milov and Alexander Rylkin (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Alexander_Rylkin/) flew to Kaliningrad to take part in the protest but were detained on arrival on suspicion of robbery, Milov wrote in his LiveJournal blog Sunday. The two were released before the rally.

"We were assured that the rebellious spirit is still strong in the city," Milov said.
In Moscow, several hundred people gathered for an unsanctioned protest on Pushkin Square that was broken up by police. About 60 people were detained, the opposition said.
Larger protests were held in Vladivostok and Irkutsk.

More than 2,000 people showed up for the rally in Vladivostok, which local authorities initially banned but later authorized, Solidarity said in a statement.

A similar number of people rallied in Irkutsk, where United Russia mayoral candidate Sergei Serebrennikov lost to Viktor Kondrashov, who was nominated by the Communist Party, in March 14 elections. Many of the protesters decried Putin's approval of the reopening of the region's Baikalsk Paper and Pulp Mills, which will dump waste into Lake Baikal, the world's largest freshwater lake.
Six people were detained, local news agencies reported.

The federal government and the main television channels, which are all state-controlled, ignored the rallies.

The Interior Ministry said ahead of the rallies that it would deploy 5,000 police officers nationwide to oversee them.

State Duma Speaker Boris Gryzlov (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Boris_Gryzlov/) said Friday that the rallies were funded by unspecified foreign powers. He said the money was being channeled through nongovernmental organizations and being used to pay people to participate in the rallies.

“Here we get the taste of a color revolution,” he said in an online interview with Gazeta.ru, referring to the nonviolent public protests that led to regime changes in Georgia in 2003 and in Ukraine in 2004.
Putin and other senior government officials have made similar claims in the past and heralded legislation through the Duma aimed at preventing NGOs from using foreign funds for political purposes.
Gryzlov on Friday also acknowledged that people were upset about increasing costs for housing and public utilities.

A recent poll by the Public Opinion Foundation indicated that about 30 percent of Russians were ready to take to the streets to protest.

Alexei Titkov, a regions analyst at the Institute of Regional Politics, suggested that the weekend protests might have failed to match organizers' expectations because people had just had a chance to show their discontent at regional elections March 14.

"This could be a lull after last week's elections, when those with a desire to express their disagreement could go to the polls," Titkov said.

United Russia swept the elections but lost several constituencies, including the mayoral seat in Irkutsk. In the last regional elections, in October, United Russia won every constituency, triggering widespread complaints of fraud, including by the Communists, the Liberal Democratic Party and A Just Russia. While the Communists participated in the weekend protests, the Liberal Democratic Party and A Just Russia did not.

Meanwhile, the Other Russia (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Other_Russia/) opposition group will stage an anti-government rally in Moscow on March 31, even if the authorities ban it again, leader Eduard Limonov (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mt_profile/Eduard_Limonov/) said.

Opposition and human rights groups have tried to hold rallies on the 31st of each month to call for freedom of assembly as provided by the 31st Article of the Constitution. Moscow authorities have never authorized the rallies.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/rallies-calling-for-putins-ouster-fizzle/402264.html

[Ataman]

On numerous other threads it was pointed out by the Strong Crew members you can't be Russian if you're a Jew.

Really? Of course you can be Russian and Jewish at the same time. There's a difference between Russian ethnicity and Russian citizenship. I know that many Westerners completely fail to understand that.


Kasparov, Russian or Jew?

I think he's American of Armenian and Azeri Jewish origin.


AS for Being Buddies, I am Friends with Danskeran(in my profile you look at) as we both are wounded veterans, so share some of the same experience.

Obviously.

-------
Oh, Danskeren shows up with another Anti-Russian post. What a surprise. You guys must have no life.

[The Dane]

Oh, Danskeren shows up with another Anti-Russian post. What a surprise. You guys must have no life.

You're here too.. ??

[LineDoggie]

Really? Of course you can be Russian and Jewish at the same time. There's a difference between Russian ethnicity and Russian citizenship. I know that many Westerners completely fail to understand that.


Kasparov, Russian or Jew?



I think he's American of Armenian and Azeri Jewish origin.
Cool so you let Americans run for elective office in Russia, most countries dont allow non-citizens to hold or run for office.





Obviously. Ever Serve in Combat?

[Ordie]

One means of placating the people in Kaliningrad is to borrow an idea from the Chinese in terms of Hong Kong. To create two systems one country model.
The Russians could allow Kaliningrad to adopt EU standards and norms (i.e. Euros, legal system etc..) It could also benefit from direct EU investments and take advantage of lower labor costs in terms of shipbuilding and re-fitting.

The same could be applied in Vladivostok towards the East.

[Ataman]

One means of placating the people in Kaliningrad is to borrow an idea from the Chinese in terms of Hong Kong. To create two systems one country model.
The Russians could allow Kaliningrad to adopt EU standards and norms (i.e. Euros, legal system etc..) It could also benefit from direct EU investments and take advantage of lower labor costs in terms of shipbuilding and re-fitting.

The same could be applied in Vladivostok towards the East.

Maybe you should ask the people who live there whether they want something like that.

----------
No constructive thread, I'm outta here...

[Mango Madness]

Falming_Python, depends what you mean as European. Russia has different alphabet than most European nations, was never subject of Vatican contrary to most European nations, never experienced a real rule of law in its history contrary to most European nations and never went through European periods of Medieval, Renneissance etc etc as for centuries it was virtually cut out of Europe. Just note that first Russian University (a mean of intellectual exchange, also on international level) has been established in the end of 18th century, hundreds years later than in Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland. Obviously these things pushed Russia out of the track followed by most of European nations for the last 1000 years. Russia is IMO not Asian neither, it's just Russian.
"Mentality" is an invented concept that is not based on any measurable fact. You seem to be pointing to various events that altogether don't reach any measurable conclusion. A different alphabet? Many countries in Eastern and South Eastern European countries use the Cyrillic alphabet. Rule of law? Tsarist Russia always had a comprehensive system of enforcement of law and order as well as the Soviet Union, where crime rate was relatively low. The US has more crimes per capita than Russia I believe, and one of the highest in the world. No Renaissance and later universities? Russia experienced a Renaissance and became the cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 19th century, and the undisputed educational, scientific and cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 20th century.

In conclusion, I believe Russian "uniqueness" has nothing to do with alphabets and universities coming later, but has to do with the "Russian soul" - Russian spirituality. The Russian soul has been described as: sensitive, revere, imaginative, an inclination to tears [but not publicly], compassionate, submissive mingled with stubbornness, patience that permits survival in what would seem to be unbearable circumstances, poetic, mysticism, fatalism, a penchant for walking the dark, introspective, sudden unmotivated cruelty, mistrust of rational thought, fascination — the list goes on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_soul

[cordel]

One means of placating the people in Kaliningrad is to borrow an idea from the Chinese in terms of Hong Kong. To create two systems one country model.
The Russians could allow Kaliningrad to adopt EU standards and norms (i.e. Euros, legal system etc..) It could also benefit from direct EU investments and take advantage of lower labor costs in terms of shipbuilding and re-fitting.

The same could be applied in Vladivostok towards the East.

Not gonna happen. First- and second-sort citizens plus restriction on free moving - don't you think that would be sort of out of fashion? Anyway, it simply impossible to implement, Russia is not communist China no matter what you believe.

[CPL Trevoga]

Do residents of Kaliningrad feel more Europeans than Russians? (by that i mean due to their proximity to Europe)

People in France would be offended if you compare backwoods of Poland and Lithuania to Europe. That's were Kaliningrad is located.


You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar

Just for your information, ancestors of Mexicans and all people in Americas came from ancient people of Asia, crossing over from Asia. So we are related my Tatar-Mongolian bro.

http://www.mvd.ru/images/2009/ban/iun/nyrgalievstryktura.jpg Look at this, he kind of looks Mexican. Thats a minister of MVD. He's ethinic Tatar-Mexican.

[V.I.D.]

Falming_Python, depends what you mean as European. Russia has different alphabet than most European nations, was never subject of Vatican contrary to most European nations, never experienced a real rule of law in its history contrary to most European nations and never went through European periods of Medieval, Renneissance etc etc as for centuries it was virtually cut out of Europe. Just note that first Russian University (a mean of intellectual exchange, also on international level) has been established in the end of 18th century, hundreds years later than in Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland. Obviously these things pushed Russia out of the track followed by most of European nations for the last 1000 years. Russia is IMO not Asian neither, it's just Russian.

Some of you Russophobes really need to pass the test of basic historical education before you should be allowed to post here. What would a genius of your caliber say about Greece for example? Oh look, the cradle of European civilization is using some weird alphabet (looks awfully close to some kind of pre-Cyrillic), and they are not a subject of Vatican (oh my God they have their own church!). If you can't back it up, your biased crappola philosophy should be kept for your own personal enjoyment in the future.

[monolit]

" The Russian soul has been described as: sensitive, revere, imaginative, an inclination to tears [but not publicly], compassionate, submissive mingled with stubbornness, patience that permits survival in what would seem to be unbearable circumstances, poetic, mysticism, fatalism, a penchant for walking the dark, introspective, sudden unmotivated cruelty, mistrust of rational thought, fascination
It's pure wishful thinking.

[V.I.D.]

For as large of a country Russia (Former Soviet Union) is, I'm bemused why it still has East Prussia and Sahkhalin Island as the spoils of war.

Even the US, as a major victor of WW2, never claimed German or Japanese territory as its own.

You're quickly turning into my favorite forum member here. First you're defending those illegal Mexican immigrants on another thread, and now you throw more of your pearls of wisdom around. Have you ever considered the fact that WWII Germans might have had something to do with the fact that millions of Soviet citizens, infrastructure and cities have been destroyed? Tough luck, I say. They should be grateful that more people haven't died in the Soviet revenge. When you go to the cave to destroy bear's family, don't complain when you get mauled in the end.

And just to clarify - I always liked and respected all things German, people included. They contributed immensely to the humanity, arts, culture, industry, work ethics - you name it. It's too bad that the well-known lunatic got elected in 1933, but we can't turn back the history wheels. We can, however, tell all the Ordies in the world to think or educate themselves before they speak.

[Atlantic Friend]

People in France would be offended if you compare backwoods of Poland and Lithuania to Europe. That's were Kaliningrad is located.

Er... I don't think so. We consider Poland and Lithuania fully European nations, hence EU membership. Was Kaliningrad not European when it was Eastern Prussia's Königsberg?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Er... I don't think so. We consider Poland and Lithuania fully European nations, hence EU membership. Was Kaliningrad not European when it was Eastern Prussia's Königsberg?Immanuel Kant was from Königsberg. That is about as much European culture as can be expected from any city.

[Atlantic Friend]

Immanuel Kant was from Königsberg. That is about as much European culture as can be expected from any city.

Definitely.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Have you ever considered the fact that WWII Germans might have had something to do with the fact that millions of Soviet citizens, infrastructure and cities have been destroyed? Tough luck, I say. They should be grateful that more people haven't died in the Soviet revenge. When you go to the cave to destroy bear's family, don't complain when you get mauled in the end.

And just to clarify - I always liked and respected all things German, people included. They contributed immensely to the humanity, arts, culture, industry, work ethics - you name it. It's too bad that the well-known lunatic got elected in 1933, but we can't turn back the history wheels. We can, however, tell all the Ordies in the world to think or educate themselves before they speak.That said, nobody in Germany is calling for Kaliningrad to be returned to Germany.

There are no Germans there.

The city and it's unique culture was eradicated forever in the war.

It's a non-issue unless Kaliningraders themselves make it one. Seeing as they are all Russian, I don't anticipate that happening.

The only thing that could happen someday in theory is that Kaliningrad becomes autonomous.

[V.I.D.]

That said, nobody in Germany is calling for Kaliningrad to be returned to Germany.

There are no Germans there.

The city and it's unique culture was eradicated forever in the war.

It's a non-issue unless Kaliningraders themselves make it one. Seeing as they are all Russian, I don't anticipate that happening.

The only thing that could happen someday in theory is that Kaliningrad becomes autonomous.

Oh, I have no issues whatsoever with everything you stated here. I am not an expert in this matter, and I have no bones to pick in Russophiles vs. Russophobes arguments. I just find it annoying that some people will use every possible occasion to spout their uninformed, anti-(put whatever nation here) biased BS, even if that means using pseudo-science (using genetic studies involving samples of ~ 1,000 people for nations of 100 + millions) or some attempts at cultural supremacy arguments (Cyrillic vs. Latin alphabet, Vatican vs. Orthodoxy, etc.).

[skyrock]

Here's vanilla Tatar

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/3253.jpg

Here's modern day ones

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/tatary.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/98619.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/cf52577b2a0a15b718b13de0639ab686.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/--135.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/f056dae3b40c.jpg

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/f_12166280.jpg



The modern ones can pass as Russians.

"You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tatar." This is very true.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The modern ones can pass as Russians.

"You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar." This is very true.Again, it's TATAR.

There is no second 'R'.

Tartar is a common misspelling.

[skyrock]

WTF does genetics have to do with anything?

Genetically ethnic Russians are mixture of Slavs, Finno-Ugrics as well as plenty of other non-European populations; Turkic groups, Caucasians, Jews, etc... which historically intermarried with Russians in high numbers. Cultural influence came from many sources, from Vikings to Byzantines to Mongols to Western Europeans.

I myself am part Russian, part Jewish, part Polish and probably have some Romanian and Iraqi somewhere down the line.

You look at any group in Europe and many are not 'entirely European'. Spanish and Italians (esp. southern) have plenty of admixture with Semetic populations, ditto for Balkans people and Turks, etc... Uralic invaders such as Finns and Hungarians aren't even from Europe.

The problem is some Russians just refuse to accept their mixed blood nature, and label any one who points out this as a racist. Who is the racist?

[skyrock]

Again, it's TATAR.

There is no second 'R'.

Tartar is a common misspelling.

You are right, there should not be R before the second T. I copies and pasted the phrase. When I actually typed it myself in the previous posts, I did correctly.

[CPL Trevoga]

Er... I don't think so. We consider Poland and Lithuania fully European nations, hence EU membership. Was Kaliningrad not European when it was Eastern Prussia's Königsberg?

I definitely did meant it as a compliment to culture of France or offend Eastern Europeans and Germans. Although I do admit, French sandwiches are the best in the world compare to those backward Russian, German and Polish sandwiches.

[CPL Trevoga]

Yeah, there should not be R before the second T. I copies and pasted the phrase. When I actually typed it myself in the previous posts, I did correctly.

You can't even copy and paste, yet you have an opinion regarding culture of Tatar people. It's rather so Gaul of you.

[skyrock]

You can't even copy and paste, yet you have an opinion regarding culture of Tatar people. It's rather so Gaul of you.

You sound like you never make any mistake. Is it just you, or all Russians have this kind of characteristics?

[Hast2]

The problem is some Russians just refuse to accept their mix blood nature, and label any one who points out this as a racist. Who is the racist?

The problem is some non-Russian just refuse to accept what they couldn't know more about Russians than Russians themselves.

No one denies partially mix blood nature, just look how ethnically diverse was Russian Empire, it would be an absurd. But it's also an absurd to claim what every single Russian is a mix-blood, you just need to meet some, with particular names and appearances, that would show how much you know(aka nothing).

Also, by reading Russian history, carefully, at least begging with Fino-Ugrs, from different sources, you would realize what exactly "Mongoliskoe Igo" was.

[Hast2]

You sound like you never make any mistake. Is it just you, or all Russians have this kind of characteristics?

You sound like an ill-educated person, trying to prove something on the internet. Is it just you, or all Whatever-You-From have this kind of characteristics?

[skyrock]

The problem is some non-Russian just refuse to accept what they couldn't know more about Russians than Russians themselves.

No one denies partially mix blood nature, just look how ethnically diverse was Russian Empire, it would be an absurd. But it's also an absurd to claim what every single Russian is a mix-blood, you just need to meet some, with particular names and appearances, that would show how much you know(aka nothing).

Also, by reading Russian history, carefully, at least begging with Fino-Ugrs, from different sources, you would realize what exactly "Mongoliskoe Igo" was.

Who claims every single Russian is a mix-blood? Do you know what are you talking about?

[tea drinker]

^^

Yeah. It is funny how when there is one person that uses a blog to voice their opinion, people here will go "Oh, it is just one douche with a blog". But once that person voices their opinion that meets the interest of these people on this site and many others, it becomes the "voice of the people".
Now you understand why some many Gov backed/paid institutions bang out papers backed by little more than opinion.
It's very useful to have an opinion on headed paper - it's legitimate!

There are 100's of millions of bloggers with time on their hands. This guy couldn't even come up with a decent description of the city.
Seriously, life's to short to fight these iniane battles. And the people who rally to his retarded cry, life's to short to educate these lost souls too.

Knock yourselves out guys!

[skyrock]

You sound like an ill-educated person, trying to prove something on the internet. Is it just you, or all Whatever-You-From have this kind of characteristics?

So the made-in-Russia labeling machine has switched gear from "racist" to "ill-educated", huh?

[BlackHigh]

scratch a american and you will find a french/dutch/german/spanish/italian/english/xyz european with a little of asian flavor somewhere

[The Dane]

From the 20th marts protest
http://www.youtube.com/v/bqwCobIVlyI

What's the deal with the oranges..??

[skyrock]

scratch a american and you will find a french/dutch/german/spanish/italian/english/xyz european with a little of asian flavor somewhere

This true, and Americans have no problem to accept it. Wait a minute, you forgot Africans and native Americans.

[BlackHigh]

so what, were are supporters ther will be always some haters


This true, and Americans have no problem to accept it. nice, for the russians ther is no such thing, of course now in the multicultural world ther are mix race people

[Hast2]

Who claims every single Russian is a mix-blood? Do you know what are you talking about?

Lets see :

1. Every single Russian(i'm sure) knows about it(proportionally big "mix-blood")

2. No one ever denied it.

So, your point ? What are you trying to say, exactly ?

[Hast2]

So the made-in-Russia labeling machine has switched gear from "racist" to "ill-educated", huh?

Friend, i don't know where you from, but in our universe one person, even if it's a President, does not represent everyone. Fundamental law. Grasp this before you enter any discussion.

[Ataman]

The modern ones can pass as Russians.

"You scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tartar." This is very true.

Are you really that ignorant? The people shown are ethnic Tatars who look a bit European/Russian and not vice versa. I hope someone like you is able to understand the difference.


The problem is some Russians just refuse to accept their mix blood nature, and label any one who points out this as a racist. Who is the racist?

The problem is that you don't have any evidence to back it up. Most people on earth (apart from some island populations etc.) are of mixed blood. But there's no evidence for a significant Tatar/Mongol influence in Russian genetics. It's just Russophobe propaganda from Cold War and Third Reich era to make Russians/Soviets look bad, like some Martians who threaten peace on earth. :lol:

[Flamming_Python]

Er... I don't think so. We consider Poland and Lithuania fully European nations, hence EU membership. Was Kaliningrad not European when it was Eastern Prussia's Königsberg?

Who cares what you consider? It's not as if France has the monopoly of deciding who's European and who's not.

[skyrock]

Lets see :

1. Every single Russian(i'm sure) knows about it(proportionally big "mix-blood")

2. No one ever denied it.

So, your point ? What are you trying to say, exactly ?

You forgot adding

3. No one labeled skyrock as a racist and ill-educated. :)

[Ataman]

You forgot adding

3. No one labeled skyrock as a racist and ill-educated. :)

You like to shirk arguments, huh? :D

[skyrock]

Are you really that ignorant? The people shown are ethnic Tatars who look a bit European/Russian and not vice versa. I hope someone like you is able to understand the difference.

The problem is that you don't have any evidence to back it up. Most people on earth (apart from some island populations etc.) are of mixed blood. But there's no evidence for a significant Tatar/Mongol influence in Russian genetics. It's just Russophobe propaganda from Cold War and Third Reich era to make Russians/Soviets look bad, like some Martians who threaten peace on earth. :lol:

Let's face it, the people in the photos are mixed. The following statements are equally true:

Tatars with some European appearance.
Russians with some Tatar appearance.

[Hast2]

and ill-educated. :)


Sorry, but how could i put it otherwise ? Of course there was an impact on genetics, but not even close to eradicate Russians as a Slavic ethnic group. Not even close. The Russian Imperialism have made significantly more errr... "damage"(lol) than Mongols and Tatars.

P.S Slavic-Fino-Ugr, that is. :)

[Ataman]

Let's face it, the people in the photos are mixed. The following statements are equally true:

Tatars with some European appearance.
Russians with some Tatar appearance.

This again shows that you don't know Russia. The peoples of the Russian Federation are very proud of their heritage and all those Tatars would probably be insulted if you call them Russians only because they look a bit European and might have some Russian roots from centuries ago. They are Russian citizens, but also Tatars.

[skyrock]

Sorry, but how could i put it otherwise ? Of course there was an impact on genetics, but not even close to eradicate Russians as a Slavic ethnic group. Not even close. The Russian Imperialism have made significantly more errr... "damage"(lol) than Mongols and Tatars.



"Of course there was an impact on genetics", This is what I was talking about.

[The Dane]

Why all this race talk..??
Shouldn't the discussion be about political views instead?

[skyrock]

This again shows that you don't know Russia. The peoples of the Russian Federation are very proud of their heritage and all those Tatars would probably be insulted if you call them Russians only because they look a bit European and might have some Russian roots from centuries ago. They are Russian citizens, but also Tatars.

In the eyes of Napoleon, Russians/Tatars/whoever-other-Russians were all Russians, so he made the scratch-a-Russian statement.

[YevgenyP]

From the 20th marts protest
http://www.youtube.com/v/bqwCobIVlyI

What's the deal with the oranges..??

nickname of our governor is Mandarin

[The Dane]

nickname of our governor is Mandarin

Ahh.. that explains it.. thanks!

[Kitsune]

Russia experienced a Renaissance and became the cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 19th century, and the undisputed educational, scientific and cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 20th century.
That may be so on the planet you live on. (Frankly, I had no idea that there is also a Russia up there on Zeta Reticuli III). But the Russia on our world was neither. It had some important artists and scientists of note in the 19th century, yes - but was far from the powerhouse of Europe. Germany had at least as much great thinkers (I would say: more), and some of the most important scientists, namely Darwin and Maxwell were British. And in the twentieth century our Russia on this planet was only the undisputed military powerhouse of Europe (thanks to an incredible amount of speninf in that field), as far as educational, scientific and cultural things were concerned, it was pretty much lagging behind, Sputnik and Gargarin notwithstanding.

[Ataman]

That may be so on the planet you live on. (Frankly, I had no idea that there is also a Russia up there on Zeta Reticuli III). But the Russia on our world was neither. It had some important artists and scientists of note in the 19th century, yes - but was far from the powerhouse of Europe. Germany had at least as much great thinkers (I would say: more), and some of the most important scientists, namely Darwin and Maxwell were British. And in the twentieth century our Russia on this planet (also known as "the Sovietunion") was only the undisputed military powerhouse of Europe, as far as educational, scientific and cultural things were concerned, it was pretty much lagging behind, Sputnik and Gargarin notwithstanding.

Wow, couldn't be farer from the truth. Any evidence? No? Of course not...

[Afro-European]

Thread hijacked and derailed by all these race talks. *Sigh* .

[skyrock]

Wow, couldn't be farer from the truth. Any evidence? No? Of course not...

If you count numbers of Nobel price winners, you will have an idea how Russia/SU lagged behind western Europe scientifically in the 20th century.

[Ataman]

If you count numbers of Nobel price winners, you will have an idea how Russia/SU lagged behind western Europe scientifically in the 20th century.

If you know who won the latest Nobel Peace Prize you see on what side it is. They very much liked Soviet dissidents as well.

[skyrock]

If you know who won the latest Nobel Peace Prize you see on what side it is. They very much liked Soviet dissidents as well.

We are talking science, right? Put the Soviet dissidents aside, just count the Nobel price winners in physics, chemistry and medical, Russia/SU lagged behind Germany, let alone the whole western Europe. Yet, some Russians claim Russia/SU was the scientific powerhouse of Europe.

[The Dane]

There's another thread about Kaliningrad
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?173504-Russian-protest-inspired-by-EU-neighbours

[Breerman]

Russia experienced a Renaissance and became the cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 19th century, and the undisputed educational, scientific and cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 20th century.
Sounds like when Mugabe describes Zimbabwe. :-D

[The Dane]

We are talking science, right? Put the Soviet dissidents aside, just count the Nobel price winners in physics, chemistry and medical, Russia/SU lagged behind Germany, let alone the whole western Europe. Yet, some Russians claim Russia/SU was the scientific powerhouse of Europe.

Speaking of science


Philadelphia, PA, London, UK — January 26, 2010 — A study from Thomson ******* released today shows Russia’s research output experienced a steady decline over the past 10 years and is now the second lowest among the so-called ‘BRIC’ group of nations.

The study, The New Geography of Science: Research and Collaboration in Russia, found that after reaching a peak in 1994 of just over 29,000 papers, output in Russia declined over the next decade to reach a low of 22,000 in 2006.

A review of literature over a recent five-year period shows Russia produced approximately 127,000 papers in all fields of science, accounting for 2.6 percent of the world’s papers published in journals indexed by Thomson *******. This is more than Brazil but less than India and far less than China. Looking around the world, Russia’s output was also less than Australia and Canada and only slightly more than the Netherlands.

“It is sure to come as a surprise to many analysts that Russia now has a formal publication output that is on a par with countries that have a much shorter history of strong research investment,” said Jonathan Adams, director of research evaluation at Thomson *******. “While other countries have increased their research output, Russia has struggled to maintain its output and even slipped backwards in areas like physics and space science, historically its core strengths.”

Other key findings include:

• The USA replaces Germany as the No. 1 country for research collaboration with Russia.

• China and South Korea have rapidly increased their scientific partnership with Russia.

• Russia shows signs of growth in the neuroscience and behavior field.

• The Max Planck Society is the most frequent organization to collaborate with Russia.

The study is part of the Global Research Report series from Thomson ******* that illustrates the changing landscape and dynamics of scientific research around the world and draws on data found in Web of Science, available on the Thomson ******* Web of Knowledge℠ platform — the world’s largest citation environment of the highest quality scholarly literature.


http://science.thomson*******.com/press/2010/Russian-Science-Declines/

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Sounds like when Mugabe describes Zimbabwe. :-DOr straight out of a Soviet 1970s texbook.

[skyrock]

Speaking of science


Counting Nobel price winners in physics, chemistry and medicine/physiology, Russia/SU is way behind Britain, Germany and France, and it is in the league with Italy, Sweden and Switzerland. America is the No. 1 in this regard.

[Russianlynxy]

what the f*ck does Nobel have to do with Kaliningrad?

this thread is a major fail.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

what the f*ck does Nobel have to do with Kaliningrad?

this thread is a major fail.This thread is Bardak. It's the new frontier.

Anything goes.

[Flamming_Python]

That may be so on the planet you live on. (Frankly, I had no idea that there is also a Russia up there on Zeta Reticuli III). But the Russia on our world was neither. It had some important artists and scientists of note in the 19th century, yes - but was far from the powerhouse of Europe. Germany had at least as much great thinkers (I would say: more), and some of the most important scientists, namely Darwin and Maxwell were British. And in the twentieth century our Russia on this planet was only the undisputed military powerhouse of Europe (thanks to an incredible amount of speninf in that field), as far as educational, scientific and cultural things were concerned, it was pretty much lagging behind, Sputnik and Gargarin notwithstanding.

Not really, after WWII the USSR (which admittedly is not just Russia) overtook every country in Europe in military, economy, engineering/construction, cultural and science contributions.

[skyrock]

what the f*ck does Nobel have to do with Kaliningrad?

this thread is a major fail.

Because some Russians claim "Russia experienced a Renaissance and became the cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 19th century, and the undisputed educational, scientific and cultural powerhouse of Europe in the 20th century."

And if their claims are undisputedly proven wrong, they claim this thread is a major fail -- Russian mentality.

[CPL Trevoga]

That may be so on the planet you live on. (Frankly, I had no idea that there is also a Russia up there on Zeta Reticuli III). But the Russia on our world was neither. It had some important artists and scientists of note in the 19th century, yes - but was far from the powerhouse of Europe. Germany had at least as much great thinkers (I would say: more), and some of the most important scientists, namely Darwin and Maxwell were British. And in the twentieth century our Russia on this planet was only the undisputed military powerhouse of Europe (thanks to an incredible amount of speninf in that field), as far as educational, scientific and cultural things were concerned, it was pretty much lagging behind, Sputnik and Gargarin notwithstanding.

Katsune, I'm cool with your Euro-centric views, but Renaissance is not a requirement for advancements. Renaissance is very Western European event, brought by repressive grip of Roman catholic church. This is just FYI. In all, I think you're right. Tsarist Russia was very slow with educating the non-noble people and in that sense it was lagging behind. Only during USSR people achieve education, equality and rights and scientific progress.

[Kitsune]

Not really, after WWII the USSR (which admittedly is not just Russia) overtook every country in Europe in military, economy, engineering/construction, cultural and science contributions.
Are you people nuts or is it just brainwashing. Do you really believe that yourself? Could you please name those great achievements?

Military? Yes, Soviet one be very big. We knew that.

Economy? What achievements were there that made "the rest of Europe" look old? The Sovietunion had a sluggish economy, and the assorted low living standards.

Engineering and consruction? Some very tall buildings to show off, yes. Otherwise the Sovietunion had a pretty poor infrastrucure (and lots of ugly Plattenbauten). Western Germans always pitied the Eastern Germans in this regard, while the Eastern Germans pitied the Russians.

Cultural Contributions? Yeah what are those great contributions the Sovietunion gave to the world, hmm? The Bolshoi Theater? Doktor Schiwago?

Science? The rocket program, yes. The great propaganda stunt with which the Sovietunion wanted to prove that it was a technologically leading nation. Not that the achievements weren't real, but it was a showcase effort that hid the overall Soviet backwardness. In the meantime even the best Eastern Bloc Computers (which were years if not more than a decade behind Western models) were built by the East Germans or by the Czechs.


Sorry, but you people seem to have an awfully rosy picture of the Sovietunion. Fact is that for a superpower with global aspirations said contributions were pretty few. And those few real breakthroughs that might have been produced had a good chance to be kept very secret (Sovet-Russian paranoia secret) in some safes in some bunkers of the Soviet military. No sirs, your precious Sovietunion was never the powerhouse that drove Europe.

[Mango Madness]

Culture:
-Conservatories produced the greatest number of world renowned musicians, eg see pianists, many of whom were considered one of the greatest of all time (Horowitz, Gilels, Richter)
-Ballet; the Bolshoi and Kiev Ballet were considered the greatest in the world, and Russia produced the most world renowned soloists (Anna Pavlova, Maya Plisetskaya, Rudolf Nureyev, Mikhail Baryshnikov)
-Produced the most world-renowned composers of the 20th century (Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Stravinsky, Prokofiev)
-Dominated world chess (can go into educational also)

Science:
-Most advanced European military tech, equal advanced with US
-First European country to develop nukes
-First country in the world to develop nuclear power plant
-First country in the world to send a satellite to space
-First country in the world to send a man in space
-Only European country to develop a space shuttle, unmanned (Buran)
-Only European country with its own GPS system (GLONASS)
-World's first consistently inhabited long-term research station in space (Mir)

Educational:
-Not only by far greatest number of university students but a disproportionately higher number compared to its population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graduates_in_tertiary_education-thousands.jpg)
-By far greatest output of research papers (more than China, Brazil, India combined)


I agree though, Russia couldn't produce a good vacuum cleaner or consumer goods, but that wasn't what I was referring to when I said science or educational powerhouse, as a good vacuum cleaner doesn't exactly advance humanity while nuclear power and space pioneering does.

/Russia strong hat off