The M16 issue

[thatguy96]

As those of you who've been following this (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) thread are well aware I'm spearheading a project to provide a resource more complete than any other in the internet to deal with issues relevant to this pattern.

What I am showing in this thread (well, I guess I'm not showing...meh) is the first, very small, amount of information, in spreadsheet form using Excel. I just realized I can't attach things on this board to the post, so if anyone has a way to easily host it I would appreciate that. Otherwise, I have no problem Emailing it to interested parties (you can PM me or post here, whatever you're more comfortable with)

Those of you not looking to work on the project you are also welcome to read this, but note right now that it is very far from being finished and as of yet I stand by absolutely none of the information as factually correct (mostly as a basic precaution).

For those of you who'd like to help I'm putting this out there now so I can have more eyes than just mine looking around to solve the problems that have immediately occured.

So without further ado here are some important things to note when reading this (its not very long):

- I'm looking to sort this thing by production dates (if possible), mainly because I think that gives the best default sorting. If someone has another idea don't hesitate to tell me. As you can see right off the bat, however, I have not gone looking for any of these dates, nor have I input any. If you have them it would be much appreciated, and of course if I get them from multiple sources I'll compare and post the issue for all to see.

- Everything with a questionmark attached to it in any of the columns is an unresolved issue, and the information is either missing or I'm not sure of it at all. Still, anything without a questionmark is also fair game, but I'm at least slightly certain of most of those items.

- A small note on barrel types. I don't know if there is any difference between the A1 HBAR and A2 HBAR barrel thickness, but I differentiated between them anyhow. If this is incorrect or irrelevant, please tell me.

- The comments in the last column often bring up issues I've already hit upon.

- I have not yet figured out what I'm doing about the A3/A4 issue in terms of Colt's in house numbering. I'm thinking I will do seperate entries, much as I have already done. If people think this is too confusing, please tell me why.

- The project plans for small historical blurbs with more technical rather than visual specifications for each model to be written, so please don't tell me I haven't mentioned changes in the internals, and things like rate of fire and dimensions; I know. If you'd like to write some of these, I'd be much ablidged and please do so.

- There are no plans at the moment to do anything relating to Colt's civilian line, but I do plan to include things not built by Colt found in certain Armies around the world, based off Colt weapons (things like Israeli modified 653s and oddballed US military projects). I do not plan to do a similar listing for any other manufacturer at this time (however, some others get mentioned because they produced weapons under license from Colt).

- Things that have "Picture?" attached to them are things I don't readily know of a good picture to for use with this document, so those who have offered to go hunting, these are things that I really need.

Right now important questions that already come to mind are:
- When did the fatter carbine handgaurds start appeaing (and in fact dates in general)?
- What model number was Colt's HBAR CAR-15 M2?
- Is there a model number for any of the interim SAWs built by the USMC or the XM106?

Those of you who recieve the document in any way and edit it, add to it, or modify it, could you please do so in another color of text, just so I can tell at a glance what's been changed.

I hope interest in this has not already waned over the last couple of days.

[Fox2]

I, for one, think it is outstanding idea.

I'll try to help in anyway I can (time and schedule permitting).

[Raistlin]

http://s95005072.onlinehome.us/misc/AR-15-M16_Table_7-24-04.xls

http://s95005072.onlinehome.us/misc/AR-15-M16_Table_7-24-04.htm

[thatguy96]

UPDATED: 1/3/05

I would be happy if people could assist me in dealing with the following nomeclature issues:

USAF: M4E1/M4E2, other AF Nomenclature Issues

M4E1/M4E2:
M4E1 - NSN# 1005-01-382-0953
M4E2 - NSN# 1005-01-383-2835
as of this document: Air Force Instruction 36-2226 (2 May 2002) (http://www.afmc.wpafb.af.mil/pdl/afmc/interg/36series/36_2226/36-2226in.pdf) NOTE: This document has been updated, dated 26 February 2003

According to this (https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_98/DAAE2098C0082/P00027.pdf) document from TACOM-RI, dated 5 May 1998, 1005-01-382-0953 is the Colt (check Colt Manufacturing Co Inc) M4A1.

Google search for 1005-383-2835 does not turn up any additional documentation as with -382-0953.

1005-01-383-2835 is an M4A1 and 1005-01-382-0953 is the Colt M925 with KAC RAS

- What model number of M4A1 is the -383-2895?
- What model number of M4 is 1005-01-231-0973? (this appears in the more recent AF Instruction 36-2226)
- Is it possibly to find corresponding model numbers for NSNs 1005-00-973-5685 (GAU-5A/A SMG) and 1005-01-042-9820 (GUU-5P SMG)? NOTE: Doing an NSN search on the ISO Parts site for the GUU-5P NSN says the supplier is Colts Mfg Co Inc

Other AF Nomenclature Issues:
- More agreed upon specifics for the following designations (and I might be putting ones in this list which don't exist, so it would be helpful to point that out too): XM177, GAU-5, GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A, GAU-5A/B, GAU-5P See below
So far, this is what we have:
XM177: Colt Model 610
GAU-5/A: Colt Model 610
GAU-5/A/A: Either Colt Model 630 or 649
GAU-5/A/B: Either Colt Model 629 or 630
GAU-5/P: Either Colt 653 and/or rebuilds of previous GAU-5s to similar standard

SPR Program: Mk 12 Mod 0/1 AND CQB/R

Mk 12:
- Are all weapons in service either Mod 0 or Mod 1 products of the Crane NSWC or are some built by MSTN or similar? (All by Crane) <- currently under debate; PRI involvement in completing rifles
- Comfirm that all Mk 12s built by Crane NSCW (Mod 0 and Mod 1) were completed using either M16A1 or M4A1 lower recievers (M16A1 style fixed stocks as well?)? (It would appear ther M16A1 stock was used as well)
- What are the component specifics of the Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mod 1 and what are the differences between the Mod 0 and Mod 1. (Info aquired)
- What is the rear sight type used for Mk 12s? Did they decide to stick with the ARMS sight or the KAC one, or neither? (Info aquired)
- In the pictures of the SPR in the gallery mentioned before I noticed fixed A1 and A2 style stocks, and on rifle with a tear-drop foward assist. Would it be the Colt/Diemaco upper receiver blocks that would feature this?
- Retractable stock issue: were the retractable stocks only featured on pre-Mk 12 SPRs? Only during the SPR-A/SPR-B stage?

CQB/R:
- In use by US Navy SEALs? By any other official government force (not civilian contractors)? (Yes, and the USCG has also purchased units)
- Component specifics of the CQB/R
- Are all CQB/Rs in service products of the Crane NSWC or are some built by MSTN or similar? (Have everything except type/s of lower that is/were used)
- Does the USCG have a specific designation for the weapon system? Does the Navy?

USN: 'Recon Rifle'

'Recon Rifle':
- Is there any standization to this weapon at all? From the account shown to me by Pettifogger it appears to be an upper reciever with a 16" barrel and beyond that pretty much any other possible config you can imagine. (Info aquired)

USMC: SAM-R

SAM-R:
- Will the SAM-R even be an AR-15/M16 based platform and therefore be relevant to this project? (Yes)
- If so, project specifics might be nice to have, and if the design is finalized it should be added to the list. (Done)

US Army: SDM-Rs (Changed), HEL Projects

SDM-Rs:
- Are these rifles simply M16A4s with more powerful optics? (No)
- If so, component specifics and manufacturer? (Recieved; More Information Requested; More information recieved)

HEL Projects:
- Were rifles modified to use the HEL's suppressor given different designations from the original host weapon? (the HEL's suppressor was designated M4, but were equipped weapons specifically designated?)
- Were rifles modified with the HEL's snap-shooting 'guide' given a designation?

British Army: Non-Specific Nomenclature Issues

Non-Specific Nomenclature Issues:
- British Army designations and specifics for the M16A1 and A2 type rifles, A1 type carbines, and any other Colt supplied pattern equipment.

Colt: Model Number Related Nomenclature, M16A3 -> M16A4, NEW M4 -> M4A1, Colt MARS

Model Number Related Nomenclature:
- Associtated model numbers for the things described as M16A1 "PIP" (Found), M2 (belt-fed M16A1 HBAR), M16A2E2, M16A2E3 (Found), M16A2 'Enhanced' (Colt 645E?) (Found), M16A2E4 (I believe this is what eventually became the first iteration of the M16A4) (Correct, can we get a Colt model number for this weapon?, M4E1

M16A3 -> M16A4:
- When and has Colt stopped using A3 to define flat-top rifles they produce?
- When did Colt begin to produce M16A4s?
- Model numbers for both the M16A3 (NSN 1005-01-357-5112) and M16A4 (NSN 1005-01-383-2872)?

M4 -> M4A1
- Model numbers for the M4 (NSN 1005-01-231-0973) and M4A1 (1005-01-382-0953)

Colt MARS:
- Do we have more specifics on this system beyond the fact that the protos were chopped up Commandos?

NOTE: additional time-lines for any of this would be appreciated. Furthermore, just because I've thrown this out here, doesn't mean I'm going to stop looking myself.

Diemaco: Diemaco Products w/ Colt Model #s

Diemaco Products w/ Colt Model #s:
- Exactly how many Diemaco weapons (beyond the original C7 rifle and C8 carbine) also have Colt Model #s? (None)

Bushmaster: M4A1 Contract

M4A1 Contract:
- When did Bushmaster begin to produce M4A1s, and who for?
- Can we assume that in house these weapons are probably either the Bushmaster XM15E2S M4A2 or XM15E2S M4A3?

NEW
FN (FNMI, FNH USA): M16A2 and M16A4 Contracts

M16A2 and M16A4 Contracts:
- When did FN start and if they stopped when did they stop, making either of the aforementioned rifles.

[D.E. Watters]

M4E2 - NSN# 1005-01-383-2835

Google search for 1005-01-383-2835 does not turn up any additional documentation as with -382-0953.


Try entering the full NSN at ISO Parts. Here is the result:

http://www.iso-parts.com/Public/Search_NSN_Details.aspx?NSN=1005-01-383-2835

By the way, the 'Recon Rifle' is a SEAL concept (not USMC), which was reportedly the unintended basis for the SPR. The story goes that the SEALs wanted something in the way of a ~16" barreled carbine, which would give them a bit of additional reach over the M4A1 without the extra weight and bulk of a full-size M16A3.

Sadly, I lost the NSN for the SPR and CQB/R in my hard drive crash back in November. The SEALs used to have a .pdf document at their official navy.mil website detailing their small arms inventory. This included NSN and component parts listings for custom items like the SPR and CQB/R. The primary difference between the Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mod 1 is the free-float forearm used: PRI vs. KAC. All of the pictures that I've seen of SPR in service show a fixed stock. Whether this is the original A1 stock or a replacement A2, I do not know.

For details on the CQB/R, check out this Power Point briefing: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/john.ppt FWIW: The USCG has bought 500 M4A1 CQB/R within the last 12 months.

As for the SAM-R, the ones being currently fielded are M16A4 with 20" heavy contour, stainless steel barrels, with a thicker profile than even the SPR. The rifles are equipped with KAC free-float RAS and a M16A1 trigger group.

[thatguy96]

As always thanks a lot, and the ISO Parts site is a great resource to have too.

Okay, the ISO Parts site says that both the NSN for what is referred to as the M4E1 and M4E2 in the AF documentation are both "carbine, 5.56 millimeter." Is there any way to get a more specific description? Interestingly enough, the supplier listed for both 1005-01-382-0953 and 1005-01-383-2835, is the US Army Research and Development Command (Dover, NJ).

[crazyman]

hey if theres' anything you need to know that you can't get at, let me know and i'll track down someone here at Ft. Sill to answer your questions if I can

[thatguy96]

Well if you can find people that might have relevant information on any of the questions I'm looking into in that big post I'd be much ablidged. I'm going to edit that individual post as more things come up and as things get resolved.

Also, if someone wants to take the list as it is now and work on a glossary of terms that would be really helpful, just as a time saving measure. I'm hoping that a glossary of the terms could be accompanied with appropriate pictures too, so if people have relevant media or know where to find it, that too would be appreciated.

[Fox2]

I'm not very knowledgeable on all the nomenclature and such, but maybe I can help on one small issue...



All of the pictures that I've seen of SPR in service show a fixed stock. Whether this is the original A1 stock or a replacement A2, I do not know.

I believe there are some SPR/Mk12 models with an M4-style collapsible stock. Indeed, there are pictures of such models on this very site! :D

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/M4_Carbine/c_spr01.jpg

Found that in the photos section on the main page under Operation Enduring Freedom > American Forces > M4 Carbine

In that same section there are also some more images displaying the SPR/Mk12 which may reveal more information.

[thatguy96]

Yeah, I was wondering about that, because some of the documentation had essentially said that NSCW Crane had been mating them to both M16A1 and M4A1 lower recievers. Still, in that picture the pistol grip looks pretty standard, which would lead me to believe that after a certain point they began making more specific "SPR" lowers. This would back up the acceptance of this weapon being now referred to properly as Special Purpose Rifle, rather than Special Purpose Reciever.

Back to a question I asked earlier, does anyone know if all the SPR rifles and CQB/Rs in service are products of Crane only or has private industry (MSTN or someone similar) been asked to produce units as well?

[D.E. Watters]

I understand that NSWC-Crane built the SPR and the early CQB/R. However, recent solicitations indicate that NSWC-Crane is buying the CQB/R uppers along with completed weapons straight from Colt.

[thatguy96]

So all the SPRs came from Crane? Do you have the solicitations that point to Colt for the CQB/R too?

[D.E. Watters]

So all the SPRs came from Crane? Do you have the solicitations that point to Colt for the CQB/R too?

That is my understanding, although there is talk that the US Army Marksmanship Unit may have built some similiar rifles as well.

As for the CQB/R and Colt, check out the following solicitation:

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2004/05-May/08-May-2004/FBO-00581273.htm


Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division intends to enter into a Firm-Fixed-Price, supply type, Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract with an ordering period of five (5) years after award, for the following items manufactured by Colt Defense LLC. This requirement is for the following:

CLIN 0001 – M4A1 Carbine with CQBR Upper Receiver, minimum quantity of 500 EA, maximum quantity of 2,000 EA.
CLIN 0002 – Close Quarter Battle Receiver, minimum quantity of 500 EA, maximum quantity of 5000 EA.

[pettifogger]

Right now important questions that already come to mind are:
- When did the fatter carbine handgaurds start appeaing (and in fact dates in general)?
- What model number was Colt's HBAR CAR-15 M2?
- Is there a model number for any of the interim SAWs built by the USMC or the XM106?


The double-heatshield oval handguard is patent number 4,663,875 which was approved on 12 May 1987 and filed on 30 December 1985. Of course, there was no widespread usage of them until the military bought new carbines in quantity which came with the oval handguards, which in this case was the M4.

The XM106 was developed by the Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen, MD and not by Colt. Hence, it does not have a Colt model number.



USAF: M4E1/M4E2, other AF Nomenclature Issues

M4E1/M4E2:
M4E1 - NSN# 1005-01-382-0953
M4E2 - NSN# 1005-01-383-2835
as of this document: Air Force Instruction 36-2226 (2 May 2002) (http://www.afmc.wpafb.af.mil/pdl/afmc/interg/36series/36_2226/36-2226in.pdf)

According to this (https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_98/DAAE2098C0082/P00027.pdf) document from TACOM-RI, dated 5 May 1998, 1005-01-382-0953 is the Colt (check Colt Manufacturing Co Inc) M4A1.

Google search for 1005-383-2835 does not turn up any additional documentation as with -382-0953.


'E' signifies an experimental variation before it becomes an adopted 'A' variation. The M4E1 became the M4A1. That is why it has the same NSN number. The M4E2 referred to a Model 920 with a KAC rail system. Just for completion's sake, the Colt Model 727 carbine is NSN 1005-01-376-7245, the M4 is 1005-01-231-0973, the M16 is 1005-00-856-6885, the M16A1 is 1005-00-073-9421, the M16A2 is 1005-01-128-9936 and the M16A3 is 1005-01-357-5112. Going through FBODaily, you can find other references (http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/07-July/10-Jul-2003/FBO-00366316.htm) to 1005-01-382-0953 as the M4A1.




Other AF Nomenclature Issues:
- More agreed upon specifics for the following designations (and I might be putting ones in this list which don't exist, so it would be helpful to point that out too): XM177, GAU-5, GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A, GAU-5A/B, GAU-5P


The GAU-5/A or the XM177 is a Model 610. The GAU-5/A/A is a Model 630. The GAU-5/A/B is a USAF-purchased Model 629 (XM177E2). In the 1990s, the USAF began rebarreling their GAU-5s to be able to use the M855 rounds. Carbines that have 1:7 twist 14.5" barrels are designated GUU-5/P, not GAU-5P. For some reason, they have the M16A1 birdcage flash hider. The conversion kit's NSN is 1005-01-319-7111. Some of the Air Force carbines have flattop receivers, but they are also referred to as GUU-5Ps.




SPR Program: Mk 12 Mod 0/1 AND CQB/R

NSN#s perhaps?

Mk 12:
- Are all weapons in service either Mod 0 or Mod 1 products of the Crane NSWC or are some built by MSTN or similar?
- Comfirm that all Mk 12s built by Crane NSCW (Mod 0 and Mod 1) were completed using either M16A1 or M4A1 lower recievers (M16A1 style fixed stocks as well?)?
- What are the component specifics of the Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mod 1 and what are the differences between the Mod 0 and Mod 1. (Major difference is handguard manufacturer)


The CQBR is NSN 1005-LL-L99-5996. The original SPR with PRI forearm and the SPR/A and the SPR/B with KAC forearms were all given the same NSN number, 1005-LL-L99-1083. The SPR/A and SPR/B only differ in the scope used. The SPR, SPR/A, and SPR/B are distinct from the Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mk 12 Mod 1. There are differences between the Mod 0 and Mod 1 other than the handguard such as the use of the PRI flipup sight on the Mod 0. The SPR's 18-inch barrel is its own unique profile, which is neither HBAR nor Government. You can read about the SPR as documented (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=134&t=141410) by Wes Grant of Mid-South Tactical Network. The Navy Surface Weapons Center, Crane Division builds the SPRs issued to military personnel, but MSTN builds rifles built to the same specifications.

There are some SPRs with retractable stocks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/2/2d/Mk12223.jpg



'Recon Rifle': NOTE: Navy program
- Component specifics and manufacturer; in house or private industry?
- Nomenclature? Specific designations beyond 'Recon Rifle'?


The Recon Rifle (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000780;p=2#000034) does not have a NSN or official designation, since it was built "in-house" by Navy Special Warfare personnel. It is a carbine with 16" barrel that was meant to give SEAL recon teams a lightweight rifle that had more range than a M4. As D.E. Watters noted, when they actually went through the official process, it morphed into the SPR program.



SAM-R:
- Will the SAM-R even be an AR-15/M16 based platform and therefore be relevant to this project? (Yes)
- If so, project specifics might be nice to have, and if the design is finalized it should be added to the list.


I have already written the details of the SAM-R in another thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21851).



US Army: Squad DMRs

As always, NSN#s?

Squad DMRs:
- Are these rifles simply M16A4s with more powerful optics?
- If so, component specifics and manufacturer?


The Designated Marksman Rifle (http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/20021157511) (DMR) is a specific M14 variant in use by the Marines. The Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) is a role in the Stryker Brigade Combat Team who is issued a SDM rifle. The SDM rifle is not merely a M16A4. For example, it has a KAC Free-Floating RAS. You can find a picture of the Squad Designated Marksman rifle in this NDIA presentation (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/smallarms/Zienow.pdf).



Diemaco: Diemaco Products w/ Colt Model #s

Diemaco Products w/ Colt Model #s:
- Exactly how many Diemaco weapons (beyond the original C7 rifle and C8 carbine) also have Colt Model #s?


Only the original C7 and C8 have Colt model numbers. Colt made the initial production run to Diemaco's specifications for trials in Canada, which is why they have Colt model numbers. All of the Diemaco variants such as the C7A2 do not have Colt model numbers.



Bushmaster: M4A1 Contract

M4A1 Contract:
- When did Bushmaster begin to produce M4A1s, and who for?
- Can we assume that in house these weapons are probably either the Bushmaster XM15E2S M4A2 or XM15E2S M4A3?

The only reference I have ever found for Bushmaster manufacturing M4s for the military is this site (http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/bushmaster_m4.htm). The page claims that Bushmaster produced 4,000 carbines for use by the 82nd Airborne for 1991 Persian Gulf War because Colt was unable to keep up with demand. Colt has a sole source contract for the M4 and has claimed that Bushmaster has "no legal right or authority to sell to the U.S. military". Colt has sued Bushmaster (http://www.colt.com/mil/news.asp) to protect its claim.

[thatguy96]

The double-heatshield oval handguard is patent number 4,663,875 which was approved on 12 May 1987 and filed on 30 December 1985. Of course, there was no widespread usage of them until the military bought new carbines in quantity which came with the oval handguards, which in this case was the M4.

The XM106 was developed by the Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen, MD and not by Colt. Hence, it does not have a Colt model number.
Right, the heatshield thing was what I was guessing, but its good to have the comfirmed. As for the XM106, it was more I wondering if they had built them off specific Colt frames. It makes perfect sense that these in-house creations don't have model numbers.


'E' signifies an experimental variation before it becomes an adopted 'A' variation. The M4E1 became the M4A1. That is why it has the same NSN number. The M4E2 referred to a Model 920 with a KAC rail system. Just for completion's sake, the Colt Model 727 carbine is NSN 1005-01-376-7245, the M4 is 1005-01-231-0973, the M16 is 1005-00-856-6885, the M16A1 is 1005-00-073-9421, the M16A2 is 1005-01-128-9936 and the M16A3 is 1005-01-357-5112. Going through FBODaily, you can find other references to 1005-01-382-0953 as the M4A1.
I thought XM was the prefix used for experimental and that E were modifications that were not type A standardized? Meh, that's unimportant. It is intersting however, that the AF, even by May 2002, still had M4E1s in inventory even after other services had type A standardized the M4A1. And thanks for the NSNs. Also, do you have access to a complete model list? Because in the table there are some gaps, one of them being the Colt 920.



The GAU-5/A or the XM177 is a Model 610. The GAU-5/A/A is a Model 630. The GAU-5/A/B is a USAF-purchased Model 629 (XM177E2). In the 1990s, the USAF began rebarreling their GAU-5s to be able to use the M855 rounds. Carbines that have 1:7 twist 14.5" barrels are designated GUU-5/P, not GAU-5P. For some reason, they have the M16A1 birdcage flash hider. The conversion kit's NSN is 1005-01-319-7111. Some of the Air Force carbines have flattop receivers, but they are also referred to as GUU-5Ps.
Okay, so we're getting back into the issue of the GAU-5 here, but having more information is good. I know about the GUU-5P too, but I have heard mention of GAU-5Ps, which from these accounts were simply shorter GAU-5s rebuilt with longer barrels. Of course this could easily be wrong, and there could be some conflation with the GUU-5P.


Only the original C7 and C8 have Colt model numbers. Colt made the initial production run to Diemaco's specifications for trials in Canada, which is why they have Colt model numbers. All of the Diemaco variants such as the C7A2 do not have Colt model numbers.
Okay, this is what I thought, but someone had speculated on whether or not the Colt 925 was simply a model number at Colt for the Diemaco C8FT/C8A1.


The only reference I have ever found for Bushmaster manufacturing M4s for the military is this site. The page claims that Bushmaster produced 4,000 carbines for use by the 82nd Airborne for 1991 Persian Gulf War because Colt was unable to keep up with demand. Colt has a sole source contract for the M4 and has claimed that Bushmaster has "no legal right or authority to sell to the U.S. military". Colt has sued Bushmaster to protect its claim.
I'm pretty sure Bushmaster secured a small contract from the Navy, for sales of weapons to the US Navy SEALs, but I'm not sure. I'll look into this further, because as with so much of this, there's a lot of rumor and speculation, and finding the facts and putting them into this project is the real goal here.

Thanks for the more specific information on the other things I didn't bother to quote too. I maintain I definitly could not have done this project alone. I'm updating the post above as I go along.

[pettifogger]

I thought XM was the prefix used for experimental and that E were modifications that were not type A standardized? Meh, that's unimportant. It is intersting however, that the AF, even by May 2002, still had M4E1s in inventory even after other services had type A standardized the M4A1. And thanks for the NSNs. Also, do you have access to a complete model list? Because in the table there are some gaps, one of them being the Colt 920.

I am sorry, but I made an error. I should have written that the M4E2 is a flattop M4 (Model 925) with a KAC rail system, not a Model 920. My reference is an old chart of M16 and M4 configurations whose source is listed as AMSTA-AR-ESW-S, Rock Island. The current official nomenclature for this configuration is the M4 Modular Weapons Systems. Current Field Manuals (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c02.htm#2_1) and bid solicitations (http://www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/2000/03(March)/21-Mar-2000/10sol001.htm) refer to it as such.

I can find official USAF documents dated 15 May 2002 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/31/afi31-301/afi31-301.pdf) and 25 Feb 2003 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2226/afi36-2226.pdf) that refer to a M4A1, not a M4E1. I would regard the M4E1 designation as an old document attachment compiled into a current document.

The 'E' in model designations signifies an experimental variation off a base model that may or not become fully adopted. M16A1E1 became M16A2, M14E2 became M14A1, and so on. The X means the base model itself is experimental. The XM177 was never fully adopted. The XM16E1 had a X designation because the forward-assist modification was already being developed before the official adoption of the M16 rifle.

I should have a more complete Model number list once I get ahold of a few more books and print publications, such as the The Black Rifle II and a half-dozen issues of Small Arms Review, which specifically dealt with Colt Model numbers.



I know about the GUU-5P too, but I have heard mention of GAU-5Ps, which from these accounts were simply shorter GAU-5s rebuilt with longer barrels.

That is exactly what I meant. GUU-5Ps are the short-barreled GAU-5/A, -5/A/A, -5/A/B rebuilt with a M4-style 14.5" barrel. GAU-5P is a conflation of GAU-5 and GUU-5P.

There are a few other things I didn't address earlier.

The M16A1 Product Improvement Program rifles were designated M16A1E1s, which were Model 645s.

The M16A2 Enhanced was the Model 645E. It had flip-up iron sights and the carrying handle was removed to fit a collimator reflex sight. Colt only made 50.

My copy of Jane's Infantry Weapon 1997-8 lists the Model 705 as the M16A2E3. BTW, the table of Colt model numbers in Jane's Infantry Weapon 1997-8 serves as the basis of the chart on biggerhammer.net

I do not know how many minor variations of the AR-15/M16 you intend to cover. In 1965, Colt modified six XM16E1 to Army specifications to fire a 4.32x45 cartridge. In a similar small caliber program, the Enfield Arsenal in the United Kingdoms modified several Model 601 AR-15s to fire a 4.85x49mm cartridge. The Black Rifle documents both of these. However, including other cartridges might require you to include oddities such as the United States Coast Guard's brief adoption (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/mcpocg/1force/gmfn0304.htm) of the Leitner-Wise .499 (http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/499ammo.htm).

I also noticed you did not have a date for the Model 653 on your chart. The Model 653 was first made in quantity in 1973, in time for the Yom Kippur war, though Colt had several preproduction models around before then. The United States Army did not purchase any until 1976. The 14.5" barrels were a result of the ATF ruling that the moderators on the shorter Colts were sound suppressors and a 1970s ban on the export of sound suppressors. 14.5" was the decided length because it allowed mounting of a bayonet on a carbine gas system.

[California Joe]

When you're through please route this thread through OPSEC for Argyll to take a look. Thank you for your cooperation.....

[thatguy96]

I am sorry, but I made an error. I should have written that the M4E2 is a flattop M4 (Model 925) with a KAC rail system, not a Model 920. My reference is an old chart of M16 and M4 configurations whose source is listed as AMSTA-AR-ESW-S, Rock Island. The current official nomenclature for this configuration is the M4 Modular Weapons Systems. Current Field Manuals (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c02.htm#2_1) and bid solicitations (http://www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/2000/03(March)/21-Mar-2000/10sol001.htm) refer to it as such.
Okay, so I was hoping to use the date structure to serve as the default organization for the table. It would be helpful to determine what is the most current designation and if one can figure out how and over what periods it progressed. Like to say (only for example mind you) that the Colt M925 was M4E2 from say 1988-1995 and is now M4 MWS from 1995-Present.


I can find official USAF documents dated 15 May 2002 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/31/afi31-301/afi31-301.pdf) and 25 Feb 2003 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2226/afi36-2226.pdf) that refer to a M4A1, not a M4E1. I would regard the M4E1 designation as an old document attachment compiled into a current document.
As with the above, would it be possible to figure out when it was standardized? And by who (I do not remember the Army going fielding M4E1s, though they could well have)?


The 'E' in model designations signifies an experimental variation off a base model that may or not become fully adopted. M16A1E1 became M16A2, M14E2 became M14A1, and so on. The X means the base model itself is experimental. The XM177 was never fully adopted. The XM16E1 had a X designation because the forward-assist modification was already being developed before the official adoption of the M16 rifle.
Well, that finally explains that, thanks.


That is exactly what I meant. GUU-5Ps are the short-barreled GAU-5/A, -5/A/A, -5/A/B rebuilt with a M4-style 14.5" barrel. GAU-5P is a conflation of GAU-5 and GUU-5P.
Right, so I should take the GAU-5P out of the table.


The M16A1 Product Improvement Program rifles were designated M16A1E1s, which were Model 645s.

The M16A2 Enhanced was the Model 645E. It had flip-up iron sights and the carrying handle was removed to fit a collimator reflex sight. Colt only made 50.

My copy of Jane's Infantry Weapon 1997-8 lists the Model 705 as the M16A2E3.
Okay, so as another good example of what I'm attempting to do, I'm going to put in two more identical rows in the table for 645, one where the Army designation is M16A1 PIP and one where its M16A1E1. I'll make sure to add in the 645E, regardless of how few.


BTW, the table of Colt model numbers in Jane's Infantry Weapon 1997-8 serves as the basis of the chart on biggerhammer.net
Another good thing to know.


I do not know how many minor variations of the AR-15/M16 you intend to cover. In 1965, Colt modified six XM16E1 to Army specifications to fire a 4.32x45 cartridge. In a similar small caliber program, the Enfield Arsenal in the United Kingdoms modified several Model 601 AR-15s to fire a 4.85x49mm cartridge. The Black Rifle documents both of these. However, including other cartridges might require you to include oddities such as the United States Coast Guard's brief adoption (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/mcpocg/1force/gmfn0304.htm) of the Leitner-Wise .499 (http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/499ammo.htm).
I'm attempting to cover as many minor variations as is possible. Mind you things like the SEAL 'Recon Rifle' might not appear on the table, simply because there is basically no standardization beyond a 16" barrel. I was hoping, however, once this table is complete to do both a glossary of terms (with pictures) and small history pieces for all the weapons (some things, like something for the 645E can be really short and could easily be contained in the same page or 'pop-up' as the 645 or one on all "A2" models). I want this to be as comprehensive as is humanly possible. I'm hoping that by the end of it, I can basically take any question on the series (Mostly weapons in use by the US military and to a much smaller extent those used abroad), and point them at a webpage with this table, the glossary, and the history blurbs. Complete, to a T.


I also noticed you did not have a date for the Model 653 on your chart. The Model 653 was first made in quantity in 1973, in time for the Yom Kippur war, though Colt had several preproduction models around before then. The United States Army did not purchase any until 1976. The 14.5" barrels were a result of the ATF ruling that the moderators on the shorter Colts were sound suppressors and a 1970s ban on the export of sound suppressors. 14.5" was the decided length because it allowed mounting of a bayonet on a carbine gas system.
I'm doing production dates, not adoption dates. The real problem in this regard is I really have no dates, and no good source I trust for them. Of course, this is what I'm hoping will be the best method of sorting the table hehe. Oh, the irony. So dates, dates are good. Another question, do we think adding another column for adoption date or two more for the adoption date and the retirement date, would be a good idea?


When you're through please route this thread through OPSEC for Argyll to take a look. Thank you for your cooperation.....
Sorry, bit confused. OPSEC another forum?

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW: Ezell specificly mentions the GAU-5/P in his 1988 book Small Arms Today. My suspicion is if it exists, it has a different barrel profile and/or rifling twist than the current GUU-5/P. Oddly, the NSN are the same.

[thatguy96]

That was my theory, that if it existed it would simply be a 14.5" weapon with an A1 profile barrel and the old, what is it, 1/12" twist. One could also put forth the theory that if they both have the same NSN, that perhaps the GUU-5/P is simply the upgrade upper reciever and not a complete weapon. Just another idea.

I have an new version of the table with some additions and edits. However, my college webspace is still acting up, so if someone could host it that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I am still happy to Email it to interested parties.

[D.E. Watters]

I just noticed the following on another forum.

SPR = MK12 MOD 0
NSN: 1005-01-504-3275

SPR A/B = MK12 MOD 1
NSN: 1005-01-504-3276

FWIW: ISO Parts doesn't give any results for these numbers. Too recent an assignment, perhaps?

[thatguy96]

Probably. I'm still wondering if there's any real difference between the SPR A and SPR B or whether I can pretty much leave it in the table as SPR A/B.

[pettifogger]

As I posted previously, the difference between the SPR/A and the SPR/B is the scope. The SPR/A used a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm LR M3 scope while the SPR/B used a Leupold TS30 2.5-8x36mm scope. The Mk 12 Mod 1 uses the Leupold 3-9x36mm TS-30 A2 scope with illuminated reticle (http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/Mark_4_3-9x36mm_MRT_M3_IR.htm). That is the only difference between the SPR/A, SPR/B, and Mk 12 Mod 1. For the Mk 12 Mod 1, the KAC 600m rear sight is preferred, since it is adjustable for both elevation and windage.

The original SPR is not the same as the Mk 12 Mod 0. The original SPR used the PRI Generation II Free-floating Forearm in combination with the ARMS #38 SPR MOD sleeve. It also used an early PRI flip-up set that had four set screws that went into the channels for the taper pins used on a normal front sight block. The Mk 12 Mod 0 uses the PRI Generation III Free-floating Forearm which has a much larger barrel nut. The oversized barrel nut necessitates the use of the ARMS #38 SPR PEQ-2-3 which has the required cutouts. A newer PRI flip-up front sight is used. The set screws simply clamp the sight around the barrel, allowing greater freedom of placement. The ARMS #38 sleeve is only compatible with the #40 for a rear sight. Well, the KAC 300m rear sight also fits, but that looks weird.

I can confirm the NSNs that D.E. Watters posted. That is what is listed on the Operator's Manual for Rifle, Special Purpose 5.56mm (SW370-BY-OPI-010). BTW, the thread (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=197806) in which Dr. Gary Roberts posted the NSNs, also had some interesting comments about the development of the SPR and how many were made.

EDITED: Corrected error about SPR/B's scope.

[pettifogger]

Here's a scan of the cover of the manual.
http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~wcchang/M16/SPR-manual.jpg

[thatguy96]

As I posted previously, the difference between the SPR/A and the SPR/B is the scope. The SPR/A used a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm LR M3 scope while the SPR/B used a Leupold TS30 2.5-8x32mm scope.
Your last post with the link to the AR-15.com forum thread didn't specifically differentiate it like that. The guy from MSTN said that he couldn't remember whether the second (now we can see its the second, SPR/A, and the third, SPR/B, in actuality) iteration of the system was called one or the other, and he treated it as if they were the same (nothing that some of the earlier iterations had the LR M3 instead of the TS30). If you posted it somewhere else in this thread I apologize for asking a redundant question. In that thread, it was also said that the original SPR used ARMS #40 flip-up sights not a PRI make (or are you only talking about the front sight and not the rear sight?), were some models made with each?

Oh, and the link to the thread by Dr. Gary Roberts simply goes to an AR-15.com subforum. Was this unintentional?

[pettifogger]

The SPR and Mod 12 Mod 0 both use a ARMS #40 rear sight and a PRI flip-up front sight. ARMS (http://www.armsmounts.com/) does not make a front sight. PRI (http://www.pri-mounts.com) does not make a rear sight.

I did post about the SPR/A and SPR/B before, but it was buried with a lot of other information.

The CQBR is NSN 1005-LL-L99-5996. The original SPR with PRI forearm and the SPR/A and the SPR/B with KAC forearms were all given the same NSN number, 1005-LL-L99-1083. The SPR/A and SPR/B only differ in the scope used.

The thread on AR15.com seems to no longer exist.

[D.E. Watters]

The AR15.com thread was starting to get into personal attacks, so I'm not too surprised that they deleted it.

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW: I have found early (pre-Mk 12) references by NSWC-Crane to a "MKA-1-SPR Long Format Rifle". These are from solicitations for OPS Inc. suppressors dating March 2000 and October 2001.

[Some Guy]

The original SPR is not the same as the Mk 12 Mod 0. The original SPR used the PRI Generation II Free-floating Forearm in combination with the ARMS #38 SPR MOD sleeve. It also used an early PRI flip-up set that had four set screws that went into the channels for the taper pins used on a normal front sight block.

As long as we're making this _the_ reference for SPR info- The original SPR actually used a Gen. I PRI forearm- the one I'm holding lacks heat shields inside the tube, isn't drilled for longer rails on the sides/bottom, and is a slightly wider diameter than the later generations.

..also (you may have said this)- the original PRI flip-up front sight had an elevation dial.

-also- there is a NSN for the Recon Rifle- I don't have it in front of me but it exists. Like the 10" upper it is a "LL" temp. NSN.

[thatguy96]

Seeing as there's a temp NSN for the recon rifle does that mean there is a actual standardized config? Or is it only a specific config for the base weapon?

I'm also thinking I should put front sight type into the table (which brings up the question of exactly what type of PRI flip-up front sight was decided on in the end, on their site they have three different variants). It might not change all that much, but I think it might be helpful to have it in there. If there's anything else people think should be added to the table (the table, remember its only 1/3 of the intended project) just tell me and I'll do it.

[D.E. Watters]

There is a new SPR thread at ARFcom:

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=198050

An Armalite rep claims that PRI built most of the SPRs.

[thatguy96]

There's also the comment that SPR is a registered trademark of Armalite. PRI built the ones contracted by USSOCOM, but did Crane build the initial protos? Could it be that Crane built the SPR, SPR/A, and SPR/B while PRI is responsible for producing the Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mod 1? The primary manufacturer is the important point now. In the 2 part of the project (1st part is the table, 2nd is history and specs with pictures, 3rd is the picture supported glossary) one can worry about exactly where the reciever came from (because with regards to the SPR the upper reciever block is becoming an issue with mentions of Armalite, Colt, and Colt/Diemaco).

...I need access to Bartocci's book ;)

[TRACER_BULLET]

I'm not sure if this info about the "SPR" has been posted here or not.


FIRST CAME THE "SPR". IT WAS THE RESULT OF SEVERAL YEARS OF EXPERIMENTATION AT CRANE TO DEVELOP THE OPTIMUM BARREL PROFILE, MINIMIZING LENGTH AND WEIGHT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MAXIMIZING ACCURACY, MANEUVERABILITY, AND BARREL LIFE.

CRANE SETTLED ON THE DOUGLAS SS PREMIUM BARREL, FOR ITS OPTIMIZATION OF ACCURACY, RAPID BREAK-IN, AND DURABILITY. BARRELS WERE TURNED TO A SPECIFIC SPR CONTOUR, APPROX 18", BY A LEGENDARY BARRELMAKER WHO WISHES TO REMAIN OFF THE RADAR. CRANE ASSEMBLED SOME WEAPONS, BUT MOST HAVE BEEN ASSEMBLED BY AN OUTSIDE CONTRACTOR, ALSO A LEGEND IN CERTAIN CIRCLES, WHO ALSO SHUNS PUBLICITY.

IN THE FIRST ITERATION, COLT AND EVEN SOME ARMALITE FLAT TOP UPPERS WERE USED. THE LOWERS WERE M16A1'S, AS WERE THE BOLT CARRIERS. PRECISION REFLEX PROVIDED THE "GAS BUSTER" CHARGING HANDLE, A MUST FOR USE SUPPRESSED, THEIR EARLY CARBON FIBER FREE FLOATING FOREND, AND FIRST GENERATION FLIP UP FRONT SIGHT [FOUR SET SCREWS AND A DISCONTINUED SIGHT DESIGN]. ARMS #40 REAR SIGHT AND #22 MEDIUM RINGS WERE USED. THE OPTICS WERE TYPICALLY LEUPOLD LRM3 SCOPES. SPECIALLY MANUFACTURED #38 SPR RAILS TIED THE RECEIVER TO THE FOREND.

SEVERAL TRIGGERS WERE TRIED. THE KAC TRIGGERS ENDED UP GETTING THE NOD IN THE END.

THE IRRESPRESSIBLE PHIL SEBERGER'S OPS INC #12TH MODEL SPR SUPPRESSORS MADE THEIR DEBUT ON THIS RIFLE, ONE OF THE FEW SUPPRESSORS WITH A 40DB REDUCTION RATING. THAT'S QUIET!

THE OPS INC CAN ATTACHES VIA A THREADED SHOULDER ON THE OPS INC 2-PORT MILITARY BRAKE. IT TAKES TENSION AGAINST AN OPS INC BARREL COLLAR PRECISELY FITTED TO A STEP IN THE SPR PROFILE BARREL.

THIS COMBINATION PRODUCES ACCURACY AS GOOD AS OR SOME INSIST EVEN BETTER THAN THE UNSUPPRESSED BARREL. PLUS, THIS OPS INC BRAKE IS ONE OF THE FEW OUT THERE THAT ITSELF IS CONSIDERED TO BE AN ACCURACY ENHANCING DEVICE. SEBERGER FIRST DESIGNED THE BRAKE, AND THEN THE SOUND SUPPRESSOR. NO, IT IS NOT THE MOST EFFECTIVE MUZZLE BRAKE IN THE WORLD. BUT IT IS ONE OF THE LEAST OBJECTIONABLE. AND IT SHOOTS.

NO OPS INC 12TH MODEL CANS ARE IN CIVILIAN HANDS.

THE FIRST SPR'S USED A CHICOM COPY OF THE PARKER-HALE BIPOD. THIS IS THE ONLY ASPECT OF THE RIFLE WITH WHICH I CAN FIND FAULT, PERSONALLY.

THEN CAME A SECOND VERSION OF THE SPR. SOME CALL IT THE SPR-A. OTHERS REFER TO IT AS THE SPR-B. IF I ONCE KNEW WHAT WAS CORRECT, I HAVE SINCE FORGOTTEN.

THE SECOND ITERATION WAS BASICALLY THE SAME CORE WEAPON. DIFFERENT COMPONENTS USED WERE:

KAC 600-METER REAR SIGHT

KAC M4 MATCH FREE FLOATING RAS FOREND

KAC FOREND RAIL FLIP UP FRONT

ARMS #22 HIGH RINGS

LEUPOLD TS-30 SCOPE [SOME EARLY ONES ALSO HAD THE LRM3, I HAVE BEEN INFORMED.]

HARRIS BIPOD

FINALLY, CRANE TYPE-CLASSIFIED, OR "M" TYPED, THE SPR'S AS TWO VERSIONS, THE SPR MK 12 MOD 0 AND MOD 1. THIS TIME ALL COLT AND DIEMACO/COLT RECEIVERS WERE USED.

THE MOD 0 WAS MUCH LIKE THE FIRST ITERATION. CHANGES ARE:

LEUPOLD TS-30A2 SCOPE

PRI TYPE III FOREND

ARMS #38 SPR PEQ-2-3 RAIL, TO ACCOMODATE DESIRE FOR A LIGHTER WEAPON AND THE NEW TYPE FOREND

A NEW VERSION OF THE PRI FLIP UP FRONT SIGHT USING FOUR SET SCREWS AND A DIFFERENT SIGHT DESIGN

THE MOD I WAS MUCH LIKE THE SECOND ITERATION. THE ONLY CHANGE WAS A SWITCH TO THE NEW LEUPOLD TS-30A2 SCOPE IN ARMS #22 HIGH RINGS.

THERE IS JUST NO TELLING HOW MANY MARTYRS HAVE BEEN MADE WITH THESE WEAPONS IN THE HANDS OF OUR ARMED FORCES.... OR HOW MANY MORE WILL BE.



found here (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=134&t=141410)

[thatguy96]

Yeah, I've read that, and its what I had based the current table's SPR entries on, that and what we've hashed out here. The problem is it conflicts with Bartocci's table of evolution (and his terms of the variants don't match up pre-Mk 12 either), and the issue is further exacerbated by the comment by the people at Armalite that PRI was responsible for making the production Mk 12s (and I'd see no reason why PRI would rush to use the KAC FF RAS), and that they supplied them with the reciever blocks to do so. Of course there has been mention of reciever blocks coming from Colt and Diemaco as well with regards to the SPR program, but as I said, as far as the table is concerned this is not important. Things that are important are pictures I have of what look to be Mk 12 SPRs with a tear-drop forward assist, which makes me want to know if all the upper blocks that came from a certain manufacturer featured this or what. The SPR seems to be a history filled with such a hodge-podge of parts that its hard to tell for sure.

[thatguy96]

In an interesting development, the link to AF Instruction 36-2226 has been updated (now dated 26 February 2003), and all references to M4E1/E2 have disappeared, but interestingly the GAU-5/A/A and GUU-5/P appear (they didn't in the previous document), but both listed as SMGs.

Does anyone have the 2 May 2002 document saved by any chance? I'd love to compare them.

[thatguy96]

Main post update.

[D.E. Watters]

The 2004 supplement to the USAF document still lists the M4E2:

http://afmc.wpafb.af.mil/pdl/afmc/sup/36series/36_2226/36-2226s.pdf

For the 2002 version, try these links:

Cached Text
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:cNUyOj6CJYwJ:www.afmc.wpafb.af.mil/pdl/afmc/interg/36series/36_2226/36-2226in.pdf+m4e2+m4e1&hl=en

or

Original .pdf file
http://web.archive.org/web/20030820134825/http://www.afmc.wpafb.af.mil/pdl/afmc/interg/36series/36_2226/36-2226in.pdf

[D.E. Watters]

This article mentions the Army's new Squad Designated Marksman Rifle in passing:

http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives/May04/050804.htm

[thatguy96]

Thanks a lot!

[D.E. Watters]

The M16A2 Enhanced was the Model 645E. It had flip-up iron sights and the carrying handle was removed to fit a collimator reflex sight. Colt only made 50.

The M16A2 Enhanced (RO645E) was also known as the M16A2E1. They seem to have been built up as part of JSSAP's Future Rifle Program, the immediate predecessor of the ACR program. Ironically, the Army bought the M16A2E1 prototypes before they even began to issue the standard M16A2.

[thatguy96]

AR-15/M16 Table 8-14-04 (http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/bpilnick/temp/AR-15-M16%20Table%208-14-04.xls)

Okay, I haven't added the front sight column in yet, but I'm planning to. This is the latest iteration of the table, got one of my friends to host it because my school webspace is still being finicky.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

It may just be me, but I can't open it, I get some error.
Same thing on two different computers, with different Excel versions.

[thatguy96]

Yeah, the links borked, I'll see what I can do.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Looking forward to it woot

[thatguy96]

link works now...remember, this table is still by no means complete.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

One thing struck me, there seem to be two 639:s one 9mm, and the 11.5" barelled "Commando".

[combat jack]

Here's my issue with the M-16: it sucks!

Seriously. Its an excellent police rifle but a terrible combat system. Too Fragile! The only reason that the Government switched to them and the 5.56mm is because they are cheap!

(I think I just stirred up a hornet's nest)

[thatguy96]

Take it somewhere else.

And I only see 1 639, and above that the gap, and above that the 635S.

[Raistlin]

(I think I just stirred up a hornet's nest)
Not if everyone after that post will ignore you. Good try though.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Take it somewhere else.

And I only see 1 639, and above that the gap, and above that the 635S.
I don't mean the excel-sheet, but in real life, atleast it appears so, there's the "xm" 639, and then there's the 9mm.
http://www.colt.com/mil/SMG_2.asp

EDIT: That would mean that some source is wrong, most probably the one that mentions the xm177e2 as ro639, as I belive Colt wouldn't have to guns under the same designation even if one of them is old and out of production.
(Wich I could have said and/or expressed myself a bit better from the start, but tired as I am my brain didn't work at it's full capacity)

[thatguy96]

Yeah, this is odd, because I remember now Colt's 639 9mm S-1-3 gun, but Duncan Long's book has it as a 5.56x45mm weapon. Odd, I'll have to look into this.

[pettifogger]

That's because there are two Colt Model 639s. Colt did give the same model number to a 9mm SMG and to a 5.56mm carbine. The following scan is from the April 1998 issue of Small Arms Review, which had a list of Colt Model numbers, including pictures of the actual firearms. The Model 639 was originally sold with the 4 1/2" long moderator, but after the ban on export sales of sound suppressors, they were fitted with a birdcage flash hider instead.

http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~wcchang/M16/Model639.jpg

Honestly, I wouldn't use Duncan Long's AR-15 book as a reference source. It is replete with errors. For example, it labels the Model 639 as the XM177E2. The Model 629 was the XM177E2. XM177E2 was roll-stamped on the side. The Model 639 was the export version of the Model 629. As can be seen in the above picture, it said "Mod 639" on the side. As another example, it lists the Model 777/778/779 series as having a flattop receiver, when they have A2-type receivers. Colt's website confirms this. He overlooks the true difference between the 777/778/779 and earlier M16A2 carbines, which was the addition of the extended feed ramps. He lists the Model 727 as having a four-position selector, when it had only settings for SAFE, SEMI, and AUTO. Long understates the role of the Marines in the M16A2 adoption and makes it seem as if Colt came up with the improvements, and not the Marines. These are just a few of the many mistakes. I have read other books by Duncan Long and they also show a lack of carefull attention.

[thatguy96]

As another example, it lists the Model 777/778/779 series as having a flattop receiver, when they have A2-type receivers. Colt's website confirms this. He overlooks the true difference between the 777/778/779 and earlier M16A2 carbines, which was the addition of the extended feed ramps.
My copy of his book only lists the 777 and 779, and I was thinking that it could quite well be part of a Colt inconsistancy (like that already witnessed with the 639 issue and what appears to be the issue concerning Colt's flat top designations period). Duncan Long also notes in the book that they were not fitted with detachable carry handles, but instead with detachable rear sights. I don't have pictures of any of these weapons, so I don't know. I am finding that his book is quite inconsistant, opinionated, and outright wrong in certain areas yes, but it did serve as the initial basis for the table.

The issue about the 639 "XM177E2" probably stems from a misnomer because it was essentially an export XM177E2...even if it wasn't designated like that.

I totally agree about the 727 thing too, but there are rumors here and there of four position trigger groups appearing in weird places.

There's a lot of the table that could be revised right now, but I don't really have the time at the moment to do it. As soon as, I find time I'll get right to it ;)

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Abou the m733:s(?) with a2 uppers:

The first samples imported to in Israel in the late 1980's still had the M16A1 upper with the old style rear sight, but all the ones imported in 1990's already have the new M16A2 upper. Also, all the Colt Commando imported to Israel has a safe-semi-full auto trigger group.

From isayeret.com
Though it doesn't say if they have their own number or anything...

[thatguy96]

I'm being quickly swayed over to the idea of Colt 733s with both A1 and A2 rear sights. Beyond the amount of evidence it simply seems plausible that it would eventually become the case as Colt probably began using reciever blocks from other portions of their production line.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Maybe they had a bit too many a2 uppers lying around after losing the m16 contract.

[thatguy96]

There's a lot to suggest Colt has a nasty habit of mixing and matching parts just generally, but that could have been an issue too. They're outsourcing stuff to Diemaco too these days, which further adds to the problem. If you go to their website and look at the blown up picture of the Colt LMG, you can clearly see the maple leaf of Diemaco on the lower.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

That's ugly, most companies outsourcing stuff wold go through alot to avoid letting people know things like that.

[thatguy96]

Two quick side projects from this side project. Wikipedia entries to be specific.

Mk 12 SPR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_12_Mod_0) (with a lot of help from pettifogger :D)

and

An entry on the SEAL Recon Rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAL_Recon_Rifle), constructed primarily from the info in the thread linked to earlier...by pettifogger :P

[Raistlin]

Awesome

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

I found this on ar15.com, may give a few leads on some of the models.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=190853

[TacoDelRio]

Good stuff. Keep it up. It would be interesting to see the lineage of the whole CAR15 deal.

[haze99]

REMOV, DE Waters and that96guy great job at breaking down the various rifle and carbines of the M-16 family! Ecspecially, in regards to the CAR-15/XM-177 confusion.

Now for the USAF GAU-5 series, Gun, Automatic, Universal, model 5.
The USAF officially adopted two Colt Models, type classifing them as Sub-Machine Guns (not carbines) The GAU-5/A and the GAU-5A/A.

As for GAU-5/P and GUU-5/P these are correct designations. These were not COLT produced models, just a USAF in-house upgrade to the existing GAU arsenal.

As to date the here is the break down,

COLT Model 610 (USAF GAU-5/A)
COLT Model 610B (USAF, not known) I think this was experimental and only a few were obtained for a trail basis.
COLT Model 630 (USAF GAU-5A/A) some other data has this as the Colt Model 649? The verdict is still out on this.
COLT Model 653 Obtained by USAF and issued along with existing GAU-5's. (A) Is possible, that this is where GAU-5/P designation was first introduced?
(B) GAU-5/P may have also been the first modification of then GAU-5/A and GAU-5A/A weapons. Where original 10 inch and 11.5 inch barrels were replaced with a 14.5 inch barrel (1/12 rifling) (Recall, if this was done in the early 1980's, the new M-855 barrel was not yet introduced.) Still researching this data!
USAF GUU-5/P, all GAU models rebuilt, installing an M-4 barrel. A 14.5 inch barrel with a 1/7 rifling twist for new M-855/M-856 round. Has stepped barrel for mounting M-203.

In addition to this, some US Air Force Reserve units have removed original GAU-5 and GUU-5 upper recievers, replacing them with M-4 upper (Picatinny Rail) recievers. Don't ask me whether this is now considered an M-4, or still classified, a GUU-5/P by the USAF? (that is another story for another post!)

As for GAU-5A/B, not seen any USAF document on such a designation.

Inconclusion, you may find a myriad type of carbines in the USAF inventory. (For units who have not gotten the M-4/4A1 yet.)

[pettifogger]

Now for the USAF GAU-5 series, Gun, Automatic, Universal, model 5.
The USAF officially adopted two Colt Models, type classifing them as Sub-Machine Guns (not carbines) The GAU-5/A and the GAU-5A/A.


The final U is for unit, not universal. BLU=Bomb Live Unit, GBU=Guided Bomb Unit, GPU=Gun Pod Unit.




COLT Model 610 (USAF GAU-5/A)
COLT Model 610B (USAF, not known) I think this was experimental and
only a few were obtained for a trail basis.

Do you have documentation that the USAF ever purchased any Colt Model 610Bs?

[thatguy96]

Now for the USAF GAU-5 series, Gun, Automatic, Universal, model 5.
The USAF officially adopted two Colt Models, type classifing them as Sub-Machine Guns (not carbines) The GAU-5/A and the GAU-5A/A.


The final U is for unit, not universal. BLU=Bomb Live Unit, GBU=Guided Bomb Unit, GPU=Gun Pod Unit.




COLT Model 610 (USAF GAU-5/A)
COLT Model 610B (USAF, not known) I think this was experimental and
only a few were obtained for a trail basis.

Do you have documentation that the USAF ever purchased any Colt Model 610Bs?
The standard lore is that the 610B was actually created at the request of the USAF. I have not seen any documentation that says they actually bought any.

As for GAU, its interesting that they chose to designate a small arms system with that term, because as far as I knew GAU stood for "Gun, Aircraft Unit."

As for the USAF have a myriad of different carbine models, this is certainly true, since I've seen reference in documentation from 2002/2003 that listed the GAU-5s, GUU-5/Ps, M4E1s, M4E2s, and M4A1s. Along with the issue of surplus XM177E2s (Colt 629s) optained from the Army (these have been referred to as GAU-5A/Bs), the USAF seems to pick up stuff as they feel it nessecary, rebarreling their older guns and then simply replacing the upper reciever as a whole. Of course in their literature there is the mention of complete M4s, so who knows. I just wish I had dates for when one comes into service and when the designations change, if they do, and what configurations they actually represent.

[haze99]

:) Thanks gents, well what is the final determination on these M-4E1 and M-4E2?

I year or to ago someone I spoke to mentioned M-4A2, M-4A3 and M-4A4. I was puzzled, but didn't even take timme to ascertain what was what.

[thatguy96]

The current determination was that the M4E1 simply became A1 (I wish I knew when that happened, but it strikes me as something that happened cross-service probably), and the M4E2 was a Colt Model 925 w/ the KAC M4 RAS installed.

As to the M4A2/A3/A4 thing, I've primarily heard the M4A2/A3 term used by private gun dealers to differentiate between flattop and fixed carry handle uppers, and little else. I've never heard of an M4A4. I had seen M4A2 used as a possible designation for a S-1-3 flat-top carbine, like the M4A1 in all other aspects, but I'm unaware of that actually being adopted.

[D.E. Watters]

Good info on the Army's SDM:

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=217285&page=1

[11F5S]

Does this stuff get you guys ******ly aroused? :P

[thatguy96]

Good info on the Army's SDM:

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=217285&page=1
Thx, finally some real info on it.

[budgie]

http://www.thesupplybunker.net/weapons/us_assault_rifles.htm

Pictures of nearly every model up to the M4A1 but I personally cannot speak for the accuracy of the info given as it appears to be for some kind of tabletop game.

[thatguy96]

Updated the front page.

[big_les]

A really interesting and worthwhile study, thanks guys. I particularly admire they way you've sidestepped the few attempts at thread derailment.

[11 Bravo]

When I went to Ft Benning 11B OSUT in '86 I was issued a spanking new XM16E1. All it was was an M16A1 with the brass deflactor feature in the upper receiver as found standard on later M16A2's. I got lucky years later when out of RA I was in ARNG and we got some rebuilt 16A1's as replacements and dang if one of them did not sport one of those colt XM16E1 uppers with a new chrome lined barrel. I swapped it out with an old nam era A1 upper assembly and it's given me excellent service for years !.

[sgtmonroe]

I've been keeping a list of NSN's of 5.56mm weapons in military service. Some I am not sure of what they are [any information or help is greatly appreciated].

1005-00-021-2429 SUBMACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [XM177E2 - Colt Model 629]
1005-00-073-9421 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A1 - Colt Model 603]
1005-00-102-8649 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [MK 4 MOD 0 - Navy SEAL M16A1 with HEL suppressor]
1005-00-126-5836 ??? [M16A1 Non-firing Training Aid]
1005-00-832-8898 ??? [M16A1 with mounted XM148]
1005-00-856-6885 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16 - Colt Model 604]
1005-00-930-0584 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [XM16E1 - Colt Model 603]
1005-00-930-5595 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [XM177E1 - Colt Model 609]
1005-00-933-7672 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [XM177 or GAU-5/A - Colt Model 610]
1005-00-973-5685 SUBMACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [GAU-5/A/A - Colt Model 649]
1005-00-983-6877 ??? [Colt AR15 - Colt Model 601?]
1005-00-994-9136 RIFLE, 5.56-MILLIMETER [M16 - Colt Model 602?]
1005-01-018-7071 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [MK 23 MOD 0 [Navy] - XM207E1 [Army] - Stoner 63]
1005-01-029-3866 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A1 Carbine - Colt Model 653]
1005-01-042-9820 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER[listed as both GUU-5/P and GAU-5/P]
1005-01-054-7146 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [Remington 700 test
1005-01-061-2352 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-061-2469 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A1 Demil Training Aid]
1005-01-061-2470 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-067-3213 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-067-3215 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-081-4582 SUBMACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M231 Firing Port Weapon]
1005-01-127-7510 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M249 SAW]
1005-01-128-9936 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A2 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-183-7759 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-231-0973 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M4]
1005-01-303-7493 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER[listed as M16AR0715]
1005-01-340-1570 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M249A1 SAW]
1005-01-340-6037 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A2E2 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-357-5112 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A3 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-376-7245 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [Colt Model 727]
1005-01-382-0953 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M4A1]
1005-01-382-4607 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-382-4722 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-383-2835 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M4E2]
1005-01-383-2872 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A4 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-411-0328 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A1 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-426-0612 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [C7A1 LSW - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-426-0626 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [FN MAG]
1005-01-426-0627 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [C7A1 - Colt Model ???]
1005-01-438-1838 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A3 - Colt Model RO977]
1005-01-451-6769 MACHINE GUN, LIGHT, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M249 crew served]
1005-01-468-0381 MACHINE GUN, LIGHT, 5.56 MILLIMETER [unknown]
1005-01-469-9387 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [XM15E2S]
1005-01-476-6236 MACHINE GUN, 5.56 MILLIMETER [MK46 MOD 0]
1005-01-504-3275 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [MK 12 MOD 0 SPR]
1005-01-504-3276 RIFLE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [MK 12 MOD 1 SPR]
1010-00-179-6447 LAUNCHER, GRENADE [M230]
1010-00-912-3014 LAUNCHER, GRENADE, RIFLE [XM148]
1010-01-434-9028 LAUNCHER, GRENADE [M203A1]
6920-01-092-7735 SIMULATOR RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP DIAGNOSTIC [M16A1 training aid]

[CaptRichardson]

It would have been great to find this topic about 4 weeks ago before I started my work!

Hats off to everyone who has been working on this!

I am also working on building a "Technical & Historical Guide" for the "Pre-M4" "Colt Military Carbines". You can find the "Guide" at AR15.com:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=267251&page=1

It would be great to have you guys check it out, add to the content, and help out with making sure that everything "jives".

As I am sure you aware of, putting this kind of info together is very challenging to say the least. As such the more that can help the process along the merrier.

Thanks in advance, if I can be of any service to your efforts here please let me know.

Mike aka "Capt Richardson"

[thatguy96]

If you'd like all my info PM me and Email and I'll send you everything I have that I think you might want, with the understanding that where ever you take it you give me some credit for it.

Also look at these. While they are wiki articles, I stand by them 'cause I wrote them in large part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR-15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Commando

[haze99]

OUTSTANDING WORK! Capt.Richardson, I just visted your thread at AR-15.com! GREAT! (ecspecially the Model-608!) Excellant break-down! I got exhausted just reading thorough it!

I can't believe how much data there is on the 700 & 900 series carbines!

YES, the Air Force issue is a damn doosey! Let me help to clear it up!
The USAF was the only branch to adopted any of Model-600 series. And the two models they did, they designated them a sub-machine gun. (as you have seen evidence of this on the lower receiver's) We all know SMG's use pistol ammo!

Circa 1968, The USAF fielded the GAU-5A (which by the info provided, fits the Model-610 description) As for the Model-610A or 610B, the USAF would have used some for testing. But, these two do not appear to have been the dominate model that became standard! *The US Army & USN would accuire the XM-177E1.

Once the USN & US Army obtained the XM-177E2 (Model-629) The USAF got the GAU-5A/A. (Although identical to the XM-177E2, it does not have the forward assist!) As listed, all data would concur with the Model-630 being the GAU-5A/A.

let's go with 1973, at this time only four models of carbines are in the US inventory. XM-177E1, XM-177E2, (both called CAR-15's) GAU-5A & GAU-5A/A.

NOTE! At some time in the early 1970's, COLT ceased manufacturing Front Sight Assembly/or Housing's without the bayonet stud. From here on out, any variant of the AR-15 will have the bayonet stud regardles of barrel length!

[haze99]

Capt.Robinson & that96guy,
Now for the "mystery" Model-649! Based on data provided it has a 14-inch barrel. The GAU-5A/A (Model-630) has an 11.5 barrel. We do not know if the 649 has a forward assist? Could this be where GAU-5/P came into useage? (Although, no USAF T.O's list such!?) Let's not speculate! Here is what we know, the Model-649 is NOT the GAU-5A/A! As of today the 649 falls into a void, until further notice!

At some point 1978-1980, the USN & US Army procured some Model-653's. (which were not adopted and their only issue was to USSOCOM personnel.)
Likewise the USAF took inventory of some Model-653's! (As with the other two branches, these supplemental carbines were injected into the current stock!) By the time of OPERATION Urgent Fury in Grenada, five variants could be found in US inventory.

1986-1990, the USMC and US Army (much bigger then, it was!) began replacing all M-16A1 rifles in inventory. The PIP M-16A2 was now adopted with its new 62. grain, M-855 round. *So away with all surving XM-177E1, XM-177E2 and Model-653's! (sob!)

Ah yes, the USAF, reasons unbeknown to me. The blue suiters don't do the same. Once in the middle of Kuwaiti liberation, only the USAF and USN would be using carbines! And the USAF variants in use are 20 years in age! Yes Skip! GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A and Model-653's were used 1991!

[haze99]

The GAU series was not a widely issued weapon. Only to Security Police, Para-Rescue, Combat Control Teams and TACP's used it. (everyone else use the Model-602 or Model-604, M-16 Rifle!)
*Combat Weather Teams, would be issued weapons by the US Army.

Evidently, the USAF (after Desert Storm) realized they needed to upgrade. Since the .55 grain, M-193 round was on its way out! Well, in their wisdom, instead of spending extra money to purchase new weapons. We will just upgrade what we have! This is where the GUU-5/P comes in to play! In addition, the USAF does NOT purcahse M-16A2 rifles. But, A2 kits! Thus beginning the slow process of upgrading.

1994/1995, all USAF units under AFSOC would begin using the M-4 carbine. (thus turning in all three of their GAU variants!)

Being the USAF, these upgrades would not be done wholesale in one sha-bang. Some it was weapon-per-weapon, other's the whole unit was refitted. (no standard dictated.) The GUU-5/P is either a GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A or Model-653 with a 14.5 inch, stepped, 1/7R barrel. (some retaining the GAU-5A/A rifle-grenade firing ring!) Evidently, the transition began using the M-16A1 flash-suppressor and now have moved to the M-16A2 version. (this would line-up with the time-line of USAF procurement of the A2 conversion kits!)

[CaptRichardson]

Thanks!

I actually had you on the list of people to email to see if I could get your input on the situation.

Wow, that is a major rundown on the USAF Carbine History, thanks for taking the time to share it.

Honestly I would probably agree with you on the GAU-A/A = 630 or 649 issue. If it was not for the references made in the two AR Books then I don't think that it would be any issue at all. Logically it would make sense that if the Army was using the 629, then the Air Force would have used the 630. The jump to the 649 did not make any sense, especially given that I can not find one photo of a 649 anywhere.

On the GUU-5P, I would agree that it was a rebuild on the existing Models using one the “newer” 1/7 twist barrels. My Air Force buddies also agreed.

The big question that still remains for me, what is your take on the GAU-5P? Did it ever exist? If so, what was it? I suspect that it was also a rebuild on the existing models that replaced the 10” and 11.5” 1/12 twist barrels, with 14.5” 1/12 twist barrels. This would have taken place just before the GUU-5P rebuilds, and would have probably not taken place on very many of the carbines.

Of course all upgrades could have fallen under the GUU-5P designation, and the GUA-5P could just be an urban legend or a typo that was made somewhere.

If possible I would really to know the answer to that, and probably as importantly what data exists to support it if any?

Thanks again for your input,
Mike aka “Capt Richardson”

PS: do you mind if I use some of the info that you provided in the guide? I will make sure to give you credit. Also can you point out any good references that would cover the material that you went over? I am also trying to come up with a list of reference material that covers this subject matter.

[thatguy96]

Capt.Robinson & that96guy,
Now for the "mystery" Model-649! Based on data provided it has a 14-inch barrel. The GAU-5A/A (Model-630) has an 11.5 barrel. We do not know if the 649 has a forward assist? Could this be where GAU-5/P came into useage? (Although, no USAF T.O's list such!?) Let's not speculate! Here is what we know, the Model-649 is NOT the GAU-5A/A! As of today the 649 falls into a void, until further notice!

At some point 1978-1980, the USN & US Army procured some Model-653's. (which were not adopted and their only issue was to USSOCOM personnel.)
Likewise the USAF took inventory of some Model-653's! (As with the other two branches, these supplemental carbines were injected into the current stock!) By the time of OPERATION Urgent Fury in Grenada, five variants could be found in US inventory.
I've found references to the 14" Colt 649, but the configuration was then labeled as identical to one of the 650 series carbines, (the 654 IIRC), which made this erroneous in my mind because all of the 650 series was primarily designed for export with no major US government sales. I still can find no evidence of the 649 being a carbine of any type that I would put 100% faith in, and the idea of a 14" barrel strikes me as someone not accounting for a .5" overlap between barrel and FH when talking about overall barrel length (breaking it down into 14" of barrel and 1" or 1.5" of FH and forgetting the overlap). Grenada does provide the optimal example, as it featured a wide swath of weapons still in use from the vietnam era including things like the XM177E2 and the Mk 23 Mod 0 machine gun.


Ah yes, the USAF, reasons unbeknown to me. The blue suiters don't do the same. Once in the middle of Kuwaiti liberation, only the USAF and USN would be using carbines! And the USAF variants in use are 20 years in age! Yes Skip! GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A and Model-653's were used 1991!
Its not entirely true of US Army units either, just the front lines. You've got to understand that for all intents and purposes USAF security forces are rear echelon troops, regardless of how well trained they are. In the US Army I have heard stories of regular army and reserve members training on M16A1s (even a mention of an actual marked XM16E1 in the late 1980's).

The USAF simply does not put much emphasis on the budget alloted for small arms for obvious reasons. The M193 ammo didn't just go away, so there wasn't an immediate issue, especially with such ammo being surplused by the Army. Even after 2000, things like AF Instruction 36-2226, which were supposed to be turned in by base commanders detailing their small arms inventories, alloted for M16s (not M16A1s, 602/604 M16s), and other practically ancient firearms still in inventory (including the AN/M8 Pyrotechnic Pistol for instance).


Evidently, the USAF (after Desert Storm) realized they needed to upgrade. Since the .55 grain, M-193 round was on its way out! Well, in their wisdom, instead of spending extra money to purchase new weapons. We will just upgrade what we have! This is where the GUU-5/P comes in to play! In addition, the USAF does NOT purcahse M-16A2 rifles. But, A2 kits! Thus beginning the slow process of upgrading.
And I've still tried to find the official designation for these kits which according to select (and rather bad actually) sources apparently exists. Either way, you can find pictures of M16 rifles that are obvious combinations of parts akin to GUU-5/P carbines.


1994/1995, all USAF units under AFSOC would begin using the M-4 carbine. (thus turning in all three of their GAU variants!)
Yes and no, you can find pictures of GUU-5/P style carbines in service well after that, but that was the plan. Note that for a time the USAF had the M4, M4E1 (later M4A1), and M4E2 carbines all in inventory, before the scrapping of the M4E2 designation and the formal adoption of the M4A1.

A quick note on GUU-5/Ps from what I've physically seen, now that Capt Richardson here has provided some pictures of what I guess are straight A2 profile barrels:
1: Previous GAU-5/A series refitted with a 14.5" A1 profile barrel with bridcage FH (not to be confused with Colt 653s or 654s)
2: Previous GAU-5/A series refitted with a 14.5" A2 profile barrel with birdcage FH (again, not to be confused with similar factory Colt models)
3: Previous GAU-5/A series refitted with a 14.5" A2 M4 profile barrel with A2 FH
4: Previous GAU-5/A series reuppered with a stock M4 upper (w/ forward assist)

Note, I have seen no official USAF documentation talking about the purchase of 653 carbines, nor any mention of them in inventory. If you have official documentation that refutes this that's fine, but until then anything that looks like a 653 I'm guessing is a GUU-5/P of some sort upgraded from a hand-me-down 629. If either USAF holdings of 653s or a gun with the nomenclature of "GAU-5/P" were to exist I would expect them to be present in USAF documentation that lists the following all in the same place: GAU-5A/A, GUU-5/P, M4, M4E1/A1. M4E2.

[haze99]

Mike, feel free to use what you need. Others have already done the same with information, I have provided previously on this web-site!

that96guy, I was refering to general issuance in my post. (yes, to be techincal many a USMCR, USA, USAR & ARNG units still had M-16A1 rifles in their arms rooms into the late 1990's!) When I was stationed in California, the MI detachment was using M-16A1's, while the rest of us had gone to M-16A2's!
And yes, the USAF war-fighting focus was different until the late 1990's. (having accellerated greatly since Operation Enduring Freedom kicked off!) So their allocation of funds for small arms was quite different!

*Now if the USAF didn't obtain a small quanity of Model-653's, then they sure picked up kits at some point. (As you now see, the USAF procurement was ad-hoc!) Because, my unit had a couple in stock!

Yes, that96guy, all groups and squadrons under Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) were the first to turn-in their GAU series for the M-4. Because, AFSOC falls under USSOCOM, which had adopted the M-4 in 1994!
Other USAF MAJCOM's (i.e. PACAF, USAFE, ACC) would continue to have the GAU-5 series, (most if not all having been upgraded to the GUU-5/P) in their stock after this time period. Included in this would be Reserve and Air National Guard units.
This is where the confusion came in, you actually saw photos posted of airmen using GUU-5/P while others used the M-4 or M-4A1. Nothing out of place here! It just happen to be different units, under different MAJCOM's!
And as shown on that M-16 Timeline Web-site (D.E Watters) the rest of the USAF MAJCOM's didn't acquire their M-4/M-4A1's until 2002/2003. Which this process is still under way!

[haze99]

Yes, that96guy, all four versions you listed would be designated GUU-5/P. Your break-down coincides with the USAF parts/kits procurment, beginning around 1993 and completing around 2002. (inessence you have early rebuild GUU-5/P and late rebuild GUU-5/P's!) Good eye!

On Capt.Richardson's AR-15 thread, he has a photo of a USAF CCT airmen sitting on the outrig seat of an AH-6 Littlebird. He has a Model-653 carbine with a scope attached. Also, the handguards have been installed sideways! (Again, if the USAF didn't buy any 653's, then they are parts kits? Or they traded something with the Army for them!)

Oh, I didn't cover this before! As for the GAU-5A/B, never heard or saw anything on such a model! I happen to be surfing the interNet in early 2004 and saw it listed on some gaming web-site. As for the description, it does not line-up with what I know of the XM-177E2 service!

[thatguy96]

*Now if the USAF didn't obtain a small quanity of Model-653's, then they sure picked up kits at some point. (As you now see, the USAF procurement was ad-hoc!) Because, my unit had a couple in stock!
I've looked at the picture and from what I can see you can't read the rollstamp, and you can't even see that side of the weapon. There was definite transfer of Army XM177E2s to the USAF at some point in time, and there is no visual difference visible in that photo (at least to my knowledge) that distinguishes it from a rebarreled E2. An interesting side note, you'll also notice the handgaurd was improperly replaced, and the "holes" that are supposed to be at the 12 o'clock position are at the 3 o'clock. I still say that the 653 should appear with all the other weapons in AF Instruction 36-2226, which has formally adopted weapons, as well as, limited procurement and the like. I see absolutely no reason why they wouldn't be in this list unless they were treated like GUU-5/P carbines.


This is where the confusion came in, you actually saw photos posted of airmen using GUU-5/P while others used the M-4 or M-4A1. Nothing out of place here! It just happen to be different units, under different MAJCOM's!
And as shown on that M-16 Timeline Web-site (D.E Watters) the rest of the USAF MAJCOM's didn't acquire their M-4/M-4A1's until 2002/2003. Which this process is still under way!
Never said I doubted this, just that it wasn't complete throughout the USAF and still isn't now. I'm sure large portions have turned in their GUU-5/P carbines by now.

[CaptRichardson]

On the 653,

No doubt that USAF personnel were using Colt Model 653. To me the big question is, were they from USAF inventories, or did they come from elsewhere?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF1993.jpg

The photo above is of CCT Dan Schilling who at the time (1993) was training with US Army Special Ops. I have confirmed from at least 3 different sources (all prior service CCT’s) that when USAF Spec Ops are assigned to a US Army Spec Ops Unit, that in many instances they would draw their weapons from that Unit’s inventory. There is no question that the US Army Spec Ops Units had 653’s in inventory so it is very plausible that certain USAF personnel were carrying 653’s, but they would have actually come from US Army inventory, not USAF inventory.

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http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2001-2b.jpg

Then there is the photo above which is a USAF SP. At first I thought that this was probably a GAU-5B (Colt Model 629), that had been rebuilt with a 14.5” barrel. Then a Colt Technical Expert who is helping me out pointed out that the markings on the Upper Receiver would have precluded this from being a Colt Model 629. That being the case the next logical explanation for a Model of this configuration would be that it was actually a Model 653. Given that this is a SP and not Spec Ops, then this weapon would have most likely come from USAF inventory. I know Haze99 has also confirmed Model 653’s in inventory, so I would say they were in USAF inventory, but can’t say much more.

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http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF1.jpg

If you look at the photo above, you will see that this is also a CCT assigned to a US Army SF Team. In this case he is carrying a Colt 700 Series Carbine. So was this from the SF Team’s Inventory, or was this USAF inventory? If this was USAF inventory then what would have been the USAF designation for it? I would bet it came from the Army inventory, but can’t say for sure one way or the other.


All I can say for sure is that the USAF had a “CRAZY” Carbine Inventory!


What do you guys think?


Thanks,
Mike aka "Capt Richardson"

PS: BIG THANK! to Thatguy96 and Haze99 for all of the help with my Guide over at AR15.com

[thatguy96]

I just want to again point out the interesting note that in the first picture the handgaurd appears to have been replaced wrong. Also, I've pretty much conceded the 653 point, but with the belief that these were in USAF inventory they were under a GAU or GUU designation, because I've seen no reference to a 653 or possible 653 under any other designation even in documentation that lists standard and non-standard weapons, and at the same time goes as far back as the GAU-5A/A, and as far forward as the M4A1.

[CaptRichardson]

FYI on the last photo posted above,


Haze99 just emailed me and stated that he thought that it was a "Rubber Duck" training aid. He also pointed out that it was a Combat Weather Team, not a CCT.


I had also suspected that the weapon in the photo was a "Rubber Duck" because of how the magazine and magwell blended together, but they have a “real” barrel which shows wear, so it can make it very difficult to say for sure.


I was very curios why USAF Personnel would have that weapon, because while I have seen 653's with USAF personnel, this was my first time seeing this type of 700 series with USAF.


I am guessing that this was probably a "staged photo", which would explain the use of the "Rubber Duck", which would also explain why this 700 Series Model was in the possession of USAF personnel.


Thanks,
Mike aka “Capt Richardson”

[REMOV]

May be helpful, from Total Silence Inc. (http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history.htm#) website.

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r3_c2.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f3.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/605a.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f4.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/605b.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f5.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/607a.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f6.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/607b.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f7.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/607c.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f8.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/607d.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f10.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/609.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f11.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/610.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f12.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/610b.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f13.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/619.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f14.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/620.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f15.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/629.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f16.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/630.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f17.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/639.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f18.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/640.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f19.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/651.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f20.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/652.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f21.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/653.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f22.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/653p.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/history_r2_c2_f23.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~luthier4/history/images/654.gif


In 1964, Colt began a research and development program, known as the Colt Automatic Rifle 15 (CAR15) program. The objective of the CAR15 program was to expand the diversity of the newly adopted M16 series, and to prevent the military from adopting any other firearms that may be perceived as competition for the M16 series.

There were seven prototype models of the CAR15 series, which included: an M16 with a 40mm grenade launcher attachment, a carbine with a 15" barrel adopted as the CAR15 Carbine (Colt 605), a magazine-fed heavy-barrel light-machinegun adopted as the M1 Heavy Assault Rifle (Colt 606), a belt-fed heavy-barrel light-machinegun known as the M2 Heavy Assault Rifle, a multipurpose medium-machinegun known as the Colt CMG1, a submachinegun with a 10" barrel and two-position retractable stock, adopted as the CAR15 Submachinegun (Colt 607), as well as another submachinegun with a 10" barrel and fixed tubular stock, adopted as the CAR15 Survival Rifle (Colt 608). While these firearms possessed features such as grenade launcher attachments or burst-firing capabilities that were later standardized with the production of the XM177 and M16A2 series, the only prototypes in the CAR15 series that were put into production were the M1 Heavy Assault Rifle and the CAR15 Submachinegun.

Less than 150 M1 Heavy Assault Rifles produced, however the production of the CAR15 Submachinegun seemed promising. By early 1966, the US Army anticipated the purchase 2050 CAR15 submachineguns. On June 28, 1966, the US Army Chief of Staff for Force Development authorized the order for a total of 2815 CAR15 Submachineguns, with the model designation CAR15 ‘Commando’. After the CAR15 Submachinegun successfully completed the Engineering Design test at the Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland, it was soon discovered that it was not without it's problems.

The prototype CAR15 Submachinegun consisted of: a telescoping two-position cut-down XM16E1 stock, a AR15 upper and lower receiver, a lightened hard-chromed bolt-carrier, a triangular AR15 charging handle, a chopped XM16E1 grip, a handmade cut-down XM16E1 handguard, a 10" barrel, and a three-****g AR15 flash-suppressor.

After the XM16E1 was approved with the signing of contract "508", the CAR15 Submachinegun was updated with the newer features which included: an XM16E1 upper and lower receiver with take-down pin retainer and tear-drop forward-assist, a parkerized bolt-carrier, and a t-shaped charging handle. The AR15 flash-suppressor on the CAR15 Submachinegun was also replaced with a new moderator that was designed to slowly release noise and flash through the use of multiple expansion chambers; as to prevent the short barrel's unwelcoming muzzle-blast.

The initial moderator used on the CAR15 Submachinegun was approximately 3.5" long and through the use of a tight exit hole, successfully brought the firearm’s muzzle-blast down to that of a standard M16 rifle. On the same account, due to the tight exit hole, the moderator was found to develop heavy copper deposits which lead to tracer failures. The initial moderator was then modified to provided better flash suppression and utilized a larger exit-hole to accommodate the use of special-purpose ammunition.

During the week of January 23, 1967, the CAR15 Submachinegun developed improvements which consisted of a telescoping two-position aluminum stock that revolved around the firearm's buffer-tube assembly and a pair of interchangable round handguards. These improvements led to the adoption of the US Army XM177E1 'Commando' (Colt 609) and US Air Force XM177 (Colt 610). The only difference between the two firearms was the US Air Forces's preference to not have a forward-assist.

The final improvements to the XM177 series came with the adoption of the XM177E2 (Colt 629) during the week of April 17, 1967. The XM177E2 contained many of the same components as the XM177E1, but incorporated a longer 11.5" barrel and 4.5" moderator with grenade ring; that were required by the adoption of the XM148 (Colt CGL4) grenade launcher and the necessity to have a firearm capable of launching rifle grenades. Consequently, of the XM177 series, the moderator on the XM177E2 provided the best combination of reliability and suppression.

As previously mentioned, the only difference between the US Army XM177E1 and US Air Force XM177 was the US Air Force's preference to not have a forward-assist. Similarly, the US Air Force adopted it's own variants of the XM177 series that started with the prefix GAU-5 or Gun/Aircraft Unit. For example, the XM177 (Colt 610), was designated the GAU-5/A. With the adoption of the XM177E2 (Colt 629), the US Air Force designated the standard XM177E2 as the GAU-5/A/B, and later without a forward assist as the GAU-5/A/A (Colt 630).

During the 1970’s, under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) classified the XM177 series moderator as a sound suppressor; defined by a reduction of two decibels or more. Consequently, the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) of 1976, prevented exportation of the XM177 series moderators. Colt then sent out a letter to owners of the XM177 series along with a replacement faux moderator and reconfigured the export models with A1 flash suppressors.

With the XM177 series moderators' being restricted, Colt produced carbine versions of the M16 and M16A1 rifles adopted by the US Army as the M16A1 Carbine (Colt 653) and US Air Force as the GAU-5/P (Colt 654). The M16 Carbine series shared many similarities with the XM177 series including the telescoping two-position aluminum buttstock and interchangeable round handguards. Unlike the XM177 series, the M16 Carbine series utilized a bayonet-lug and a longer 14.5" barrel; the length of which was determined by the overall length of an XM177 series barrel and moderator combination. Other differences to the M16 Carbine series included an A1 flash-suppressor, and it's ability to accept both the M7 bayonet and M203 grenade launcher.

Since the introduction of the CAR15 series in 1964, many of the features developed throughout it's production are still in use today. For example, the telescoping stock of the CAR15 Submachinegun has been further developed from the XM177 series, and today is standard on all carbine-size M16 series rifles. The interchangeable handguards of the XM177 series have since been refined and adopted for use on both full-size and carbine-size M16 series rifles.

While the term ‘CAR15’ originated with the CAR15 program, many people have never heard of the CAR15 series, and thus associate it with the only CAR15 that was produced on a large scale, the CAR15 Submachinegun. Consequently, the synonym 'CAR15' has become a universal reference for short-barrel M16's and is believed to implicate Carbine AR15, and not Colt Automatic Rifle 15.

[haze99]

GREATfind REMOV!

Historical text starts well, but excludes the USAF-side of the GAU-5 series procurment!

1. The Model-654 photo is listed as the GUU-5/P. But, in the historical text it is listed as GAU-5/P? Which is it?

2. When and why would the USAF procure the XM-177E2 (Model-629) I have my assumption, but I will post it later!

3. Did the US Army & Navy adopt the Model-653, M-16 Carbine? (if so what is the NSN or TM #!)

[sgtmonroe]

"3. Did the US Army & Navy adopt the Model-653, M-16 Carbine? (if so what is the NSN or TM #!)"

Haze,

I posted the NSN [I think it appears on page 5 of this thread]:

1005-01-029-3866 CARBINE, 5.56 MILLIMETER [M16A1 Carbine - Colt Model 653]

[thatguy96]

GREATfind REMOV!

Historical text starts well, but excludes the USAF-side of the GAU-5 series procurment!

1. The Model-654 photo is listed as the GUU-5/P. But, in the historical text it is listed as GAU-5/P? Which is it?

2. When and why would the USAF procure the XM-177E2 (Model-629) I have my assumption, but I will post it later!

1: I've not seen anything to suggest the USAF had actual from factory 654s. A1 style GUU-5/Ps have a config similar, but they are not from factory guns. I have not found any official reference to GAU-5/P ever, even in ones that mention both GAU-5A/A and GUU-5/P.

2: For spare parts, and because the Army was getting rid of them. This is still unconfirmed.

[sgtmonroe]

A note about the NSN for the Model 653 - even though there are a number of pictures of it being used by United States Army Rangers and Special Forces as well as United States Navy SEALs - I originally came across the NSN in a United States Marine Corps Tech. Bulletin. I have not seen it listed in any United States Army TM even though it appears to have been utilized by them more than any other branch [especially during Bright Star and Urgent Fury].

[haze99]

Thanks sgtmonroe, yes, the earlyist photo I have seen of the M-16A1 Carbine (Model-653) is dated 1981. Which this would have been turned-in around 1986/1987 for the M-16A2 rifle! (at least within the Ranger Regiment!)
Odd, the USMC had it listed, although I am unaware of it being issued to Force RECON?

[sgtmonroe]

cleared the entry

[sgtmonroe]

I found the USMC publication that the Model 653 is mentioned in. I was mistaken it is not a Technical Bulletin but instead Marine Corps Order 8300.1C dated 27 Mar 1984 [Marine Corps Serialized Control of Small Arms System]. The actual entry is listed as follows:

1005-01-029-3866 Submachinegun, 5.56mm, Model 653

[slobo]

Just picked up this old thread. Anyone know what happened to this project?

[hairydavey]

When I was serving in the British Army at one point I used an M16 A2 that was a bit of an oddity. Colt stamped, with an A1 style upper but with the groove in the carry handle as you would find on an A2 instead of the U shaped cut from the A1. Rear sights were A1 leaf type. No case deflector, A2 forward assist and the markings on the magazine well were "MODEL 02", not M16A2. Also it was auto not burst. Anyone shed some light on this one?

[slobo]

Was the flash suppressor the lter bird cage or the earlier ****ged variety. Also, was the foregrip the A2 round cross-section variety or A1 triangular?

[hairydavey]

Flash suppressor was a proper bird cage al la A2 as well as A2 barrel and furniture. Really was an odd one! The only picture I've ever found that has a weapon that looks identical to the weapon I used was in the hands of a Nicuraguan soldier during the '80s, unfortunately I don't have the pic. Imagaine a standard A2 but with an A1 looking upper receiver with the A2 cut out groove in the carry handle and A2 forward assist minus case deflector. I'm just curious as to what model it was as I've never seen any others marked "Model 02" either. Any help greatly appreciated :)