View Full Version : [Discussion/Rants]Terrorism in Russia
sepheronx
03-29-2010, 04:11 AM
This is to set aside the off-topic that was going on in the metro bombing thread (url=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?176768-Breaking-Blast-in-Moscow-subway-25-dead) (yes, I know I started it), it was requested by many to move it elsewhere. So to start a new topic on the matter, please talk about the terrorist activities that have been going on for a while now in Russia, and what you think is best solutions.
To start off, I want to post the listing of terrorist attacks in Russia that are more common in the media than others.
June 1995: Chechen rebels seize hundreds of hostages in a hospital in southern Russian town of Budennovsk. More than 100 die as Russian commandos launch botched raid. Rebels allowed to leave for Chechnya after five days in return for freeing captives.
January 1996 - 350 Chechen militants seize a hospital in Kizlyar, eastern Chechnya, and take more than 3,000 people hostage. In military operation to free them, 65 civilians and soldiers are killed.
September 1999 - Bombs destroy apartment blocks in Moscow, Buynaksk and Volgodonsk, killing 200. The government blames Chechen rebels, who in turn accuse Russia's secret services. Then Prime Minister Vladimir Putin responds by sending troops into Chechnya for the first time since 1997.
July 2-3, 2000 - Chechen guerrillas launch five suicide bomb attacks on bases of Russian forces within 24 hours. At least 54 people are killed at a police base near Grozny.
October 23, 2002 - About 50 Chechen rebels seize a Moscow theatre and take about 800 hostages. After a three-day siege, Russian forces storm the building using gas, killing most of the rebels and 115 hostages.
December 27, 2002 - Chechen suicide bombers ram vehicles into the local government headquarters in Grozny, bringing down the roof and floors of the four-storeyed building. Chechen officials say about 80 people killed.
May 12, 2003 - Two suicide bombers drive a truck full of explosives into a government administration and security complex in Znamenskoye, in northern Chechnya. Fifty-nine people are killed, and scores hurt.
September 1, 2004 - The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan massacre) was a three day hostage-taking of over 1000 people which ended in the deaths of over 300. It began when a group of armed mostly Ingush and Chechen terrorists took more than 1,100 people (including 777 children]) hostage on September 1, 2004, at School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, an autonomous republic in the North Caucasus region of the Russian Federation.
Thanks wildfrespo for the list.
Thread on Russia fighting terrorists:
Militaryphotos (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157298-Russia-against-terrorism)
Snoshi
03-29-2010, 04:13 AM
There is nothing Russia can do without alieneiting hole Chechen population.
sepheronx
03-29-2010, 04:14 AM
There is nothing Russia can do without alieneiting hole Chechen population.
Well, something has to be done, no?
Ryder
03-29-2010, 04:19 AM
Well, maybe this just has to be viewed now as a stretched out, low-intensity war sort of like what happened between Brittain and Ireland over Ulster. Hopefully 20 years from now the jihadists will have all been killed, dead from other causes, or just too old and battered to keep going and the conflict will end.
Alienfreak
03-29-2010, 04:19 AM
Something has to be done concerning almost all Muslims on this planet. Ofc for Russia its Chechnya... for the USA its the half muslim world. I mean heck, even we Germans have several failed planned terrorist attacks (one also aimed at public trains).
Is it really that we... uh... are treating them bad? Why aren't all the africans coming over and bombing us to hell then? I mean they are facing problems FAR more dire than the muslims. Against most african lives a live in the Gaza Strip must look like heaven...
Snoshi
03-29-2010, 04:20 AM
Well, something has to be done, no?
Yeah. But Russia is stuck between a hard place and rock. Since the "end" of the Chechen war the Russian government has been trying to present Chechens as "friendly" people that support Russia. Of course now you can start imposing more harsh checks and stuff. But that will just radicalize more Chechens. Like i said, there is not much Russia ca do aslong as they plan to keep Chechnya happy and part of Russia Federation.
Alienfreak
03-29-2010, 04:24 AM
and part of Russia Federation.
I'm not sure it will end once they part...
Yeah. But Russia is stuck between a hard place and rock. Since the "end" of the Chechen war the Russian government has been trying to present Chechens as "friendly" people that support Russia. Of course now you can start imposing more harsh checks and stuff. But that will just radicalize more Chechens. Like i said, there is not much Russia ca do aslong as they plan to keep Chechnya happy and part of Russia Federation.
I dont think its correct to correlate these suicide bombers/terrorists with Chechens. The radical terrorists are a tiny fraction of the Chechen population, and should be treated like the criminals that they are. No need to tarnish the whole Chechen people by the actions of a few deranged criminals living in the mountains.
sepheronx
03-29-2010, 04:25 AM
I'm not sure it will end once they part...
Probably not. And if they do get their own land, then they will see how they won, and in the end it will condone further attacks (as they will see it that it is the way to win).
Shurik SST
03-29-2010, 04:28 AM
They spread through radicalized teaching in mosques. It is the same all over the world. They are all nice and secular and play well with others and all of a sudden there is like some craze and they build like 300 new "schools" and new mosques are all over and then they all of a sudden start turning. That cycle has to stop. If you go to church or whatever, the clergy will tell you to play nice, forgive and repent. They will tell you to be a better human being. The same expectation has to be explained to the Islamic faith. I am sorry but I am failing to see many Islamic scholar preaching anything but victimhood and "defense". Time for them to start spreading some love and understanding. It is becoming obvious where the source is. Radical vision of Islam spread by donation and subterfuge from Wahhabis that are infiltrating schools and mosques throughout the Muslim world. This must stop. they simply have to accept some reform or it will come to open warfare within a decade or so,
They hide behind a veil of "teaching" and create hundreds of drones and then select a few from those hundreds. That way they can keep "teaching" and will always separate themselves from the "terrorists". It is always the same ""They were nice, showed up for prayer, I dunno what happened". Bull****. Cut their financing from Saudi, hit them hard in the pocketbook. Close any school in any way facilitating any terrorist. If he has set foot in a "school" or a "mosque" shut it down. Hold the imams or whoever responsible for their words, act hard on any talk of danger or persecution to Islam. If that fails, apply the same courtesy Saudi gives to Christians - outlaw it.
Target the cells with more intelligence work while you are combing the "schools" and "madrassas" with a fine tooth comb. Open up the mobile network to spying.
At the same time let lose the fringe at those who are just not getting it and fake the same thing they fake "I dunno what happened, they were nice guys, I never thought they could beat them up so badly".
Hold their own community responsible to pacifying themselves. Islam will never ever learn unless they stop throwing everything back and learn to police themselves. I mean, really, it is time for those people to take responsibility. Unfortunately, people in the Islamic community that do that are a rarity. I am really waiting for their intellectuals to reach out and clean their own community. This has gone long enough.
Ryder
03-29-2010, 04:32 AM
Probably not. And if they do get their own land, then they will see how they won, and in the end it will condone further attacks (as they will see it that it is the way to win).
Yeah, as you recall, Russia was pretty much prepared to cut Chechnya loose in the mid 90s, let them go their own way. But, of course they were too chaotic and never stabilized as a state. No, instead of doing that, they decided it would be a better thing to do to push their luck to an insane extent by lanching a military operation against the Russian republic of Dagestan. What can be done in such a situation? Should they let these a-holes destabilize their entire southern flank?
Alienfreak
03-29-2010, 05:02 AM
Yeah, as you recall, Russia was pretty much prepared to cut Chechnya loose in the mid 90s, let them go their own way. But, of course they were too chaotic and never stabilized as a state. No, instead of doing that, they decided it would be a better thing to do to push their luck to an insane extent by lanching a military operation against the Russian republic of Dagestan. What can be done in such a situation? Should they let these a-holes destabilize their entire southern flank?
Give those fanatics a finger and they want the whole hand.
hulaku
03-29-2010, 05:05 AM
They spread through radicalized teaching in mosques. It is the same all over the world. They are all nice and secular and play well with others and all of a sudden there is like some craze and they build like 300 new "schools" and new mosques are all over and then they all of a sudden start turning. That cycle has to stop. If you go to church or whatever, the clergy will tell you to play nice, forgive and repent. They will tell you to be a better human being. The same expectation has to be explained to the Islamic faith. I am sorry but I am failing to see many Islamic scholar preaching anything but victimhood and "defense". Time for them to start spreading some love and understanding. It is becoming obvious where the source is. Radical vision of Islam spread by donation and subterfuge from Wahhabis that are infiltrating schools and mosques throughout the Muslim world. This must stop. they simply have to accept some reform or it will come to open warfare within a decade or so,
They hide behind a veil of "teaching" and create hundreds of drones and then select a few from those hundreds. That way they can keep "teaching" and will always separate themselves from the "terrorists". It is always the same ""They were nice, showed up for prayer, I dunno what happened". Bull****. Cut their financing from Saudi, hit them hard in the pocketbook. Close any school in any way facilitating any terrorist. If he has set foot in a "school" or a "mosque" shut it down. Hold the imams or whoever responsible for their words, act hard on any talk of danger or persecution to Islam. If that fails, apply the same courtesy Saudi gives to Christians - outlaw it.
Target the cells with more intelligence work while you are combing the "schools" and "madrassas" with a fine tooth comb. Open up the mobile network to spying.
At the same time let lose the fringe at those who are just not getting it and fake the same thing they fake "I dunno what happened, they were nice guys, I never thought they could beat them up so badly".
Hold their own community responsible to pacifying themselves. Islam will never ever learn unless they stop throwing everything back and learn to police themselves. I mean, really, it is time for those people to take responsibility. Unfortunately, people in the Islamic community that do that are a rarity. I am really waiting for their intellectuals to reach out and clean their own community. This has gone long enough.
A very good analysis.
The countries most affected by this terror viz Russia, India and Israel have to come together and together with the west break them down and all the countries which support terror like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan. The funding and training of the terrorists is the first thing to be hit.
There is nothing Russia can do without alieneiting hole Chechen population.
Let them have their own emirate, but only with a wall built around it.
Russia should really try to emulate Israel in this case.
Well, maybe this just has to be viewed now as a stretched out, low-intensity war sort of like what happened between Brittain and Ireland over Ulster. Hopefully 20 years from now the jihadists will have all been killed, dead from other causes, or just too old and battered to keep going and the conflict will end.
Does anyone have information how wide-spread the jihadism and separatism is among Chechen and Ingush teens and young adults? If extremist religious ideas are wide-spread among the young people in that area then the situation is not so good for Russia.
Yeah. But Russia is stuck between a hard place and rock. Since the "end" of the Chechen war the Russian government has been trying to present Chechens as "friendly" people that support Russia. Of course now you can start imposing more harsh checks and stuff. But that will just radicalize more Chechens. Like i said, there is not much Russia ca do aslong as they plan to keep Chechnya happy and part of Russia Federation.
There is always the "final solution" Carpet bomb the area and then re-populate it with Russian Cossacks :).
Except the people who do this are just crazy, determined criminals. The people who would be carpet bombed are hardly the people who did this, and are in fact by and large upstanding Russian citizens. Sometimes carpet bombing is a valid solution, in this case I think the solution is more of the Russian intelligence community infiltrating groups likely to support these actions, and more special operations to find the terrorists in the mountain hideouts.
Wow, I just read the Finnish biggest newspapers Helsingin Sanomat's forum about the terrorist attacks.
Practically the 50 first posts were either blaming Putin for the attack or symphatizing the terrorists. Not a single condolence for the Moscow people for the attack. After this I stopped reading.
If this is a general attitude towards Russia in Finland then Finns are a sick, twisted bunch of people. I really hope I'm wrong here.
Steak-Sauce
03-29-2010, 06:54 AM
Maybe germany can come up with a final solution then
You're a disgusting asshole. Reported.
Ataman
03-29-2010, 06:54 AM
Wow, I just read the Finnish biggest newspapers Helsingin Sanomat's forum about the terrorist attacks.
Practically the 50 first posts were either blaming Putin for the attack or symphatizing the terrorists. Not a single condolence for the Moscow people for the attack. After this I stopped reading.
If this is a general attitude towards Russia in Finland then Finns are a sick, twisted bunch of people. I really hope I'm wrong here.
You should read some Baltic newspapers/forums as well.
I'd like to introduce you to the "greater internet ****wad theory":
http://larvalsubjects.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/greater-internet-****wad-theorysimple-img_assist_custom1.jpg
Vityaz
03-29-2010, 07:02 AM
If this is a general attitude towards Russia in Finland then Finns are a sick, twisted bunch of people. I really hope I'm wrong here.
You're wrong. They're not. If assholes posting on the internet accurately represented their own nationalities, than the world would be a disgusting place indeed.
kalerab
03-29-2010, 07:16 AM
Wow, I just read the Finnish biggest newspapers Helsingin Sanomat's forum about the terrorist attacks.
Practically the 50 first posts were either blaming Putin for the attack or symphatizing the terrorists. Not a single condolence for the Moscow people for the attack. After this I stopped reading.
If this is a general attitude towards Russia in Finland then Finns are a sick, twisted bunch of people. I really hope I'm wrong here.
There´s a load of a-holes on all internet forums, same goes for other newspaper forums - sadly including the Slovak one. But they do not reflect the general attitude of population towards anything.
tommy00
03-29-2010, 07:45 AM
•June 1995: Chechen rebels seize hundreds of hostages in a hospital in southern Russian town of Budennovsk. More than 100 die as Russian commandos launch botched raid. Rebels allowed to leave for Chechnya after five days in return for freeing captives.
•January 1996 - 350 Chechen militants seize a hospital in Kizlyar, eastern Chechnya, and take more than 3,000 people hostage. In military operation to free them, 65 civilians and soldiers are killed.
•September 1999 - Bombs destroy apartment blocks in Moscow, Buynaksk and Volgodonsk, killing 200. The government blames Chechen rebels, who in turn accuse Russia's secret services. Then Prime Minister Vladimir Putin responds by sending troops into Chechnya for the first time since 1997.
•July 2-3, 2000 - Chechen guerrillas launch five suicide bomb attacks on bases of Russian forces within 24 hours. At least 54 people are killed at a police base near Grozny.
•October 23, 2002 - About 50 Chechen rebels seize a Moscow theatre and take about 800 hostages. After a three-day siege, Russian forces storm the building using gas, killing most of the rebels and 115 hostages.
•December 27, 2002 - Chechen suicide bombers ram vehicles into the local government headquarters in Grozny, bringing down the roof and floors of the four-storeyed building. Chechen officials say about 80 people killed.
•May 12, 2003 - Two suicide bombers drive a truck full of explosives into a government administration and security complex in Znamenskoye, in northern Chechnya. Fifty-nine people are killed, and scores hurt.
•September 1, 2004 - The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan massacre) was a three day hostage-taking of over 1000 people which ended in the deaths of over 300. It began when a group of armed mostly Ingush and Chechen terrorists took more than 1,100 people (including 777 children]) hostage on September 1, 2004, at School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, an autonomous republic in the North Caucasus region of the Russian Federation
•5 July 2003-two women blow themselfs up in Moscow festival, killing 15 and hurt 60
•1 august 2003-A suicide-terrorist drives a truck filled with explosives into a militaryhospidal in Mozdok, North-Ossetia. Ca. 50 people get killed...
•5 Detcember 2003-In a explosion in Jessentuki train station, in South-Russia, 46 killed and 160 hurt...
•6 Feb. 2004-A suicide-terrorist blow himself up in Moscow metro, 39 killed, over 100 hurt...
•24 Aug.2004-Two Russian passanger-planes blow up almost same time-90 killed...
•31 Aug.2004-A suicide-attack in Moscow centre, 10 killed, 51 hurt...
•13 Okt.2005-Rebels attack city named Naltšik, in Kabardi-Balkaaria.....12 civilians and 12 police killed...(plus 20 rebels)
•10 Feb. 2006-7 police and 12 rebels killed in fighting close the city of Stavropol, South-Russia...
•21 Aug 2006-Bomb in a Moscow market kills 10....
•13 Aug.2007-Train(Nevski-Express) blown up, 60 people hurt...
•31Aug.2007-Bus-explosion in city of Togliatti kills 8 and hurts 50 people...
•22 June 2009-President of Ingushetia, Junus-Bek Jevkurov hurt in explosion...
•17Aug. 2009-A suicide-terrorist drives a car with explosives into a police-station in Nazran, Ingushetia....20 killed, 138 hurt...
•27 Nov.2009-Train(Nevski-Express) blown up, 26 people killed, ca. 100 hurt....
•6 Jan.2010-7 policeman killed and20 hurt in Dagestan, when suicide-terrorist blow up his car.....
You're wrong. They're not. If assholes posting on the internet accurately represented their own nationalities, than the world would be a disgusting place indeed.
Still makes me wonder why the assholes are such a majority in Helsingin Sanomat forum. I see nobody blaming Putin or sympathazing terrorists here.
JBH22
03-29-2010, 08:04 AM
Give those fanatics a finger and they want the whole hand.
Fanatics should be given bullet in their brains not land...
Alienfreak
03-29-2010, 08:19 AM
Fanatics should be given bullet in their brains not land...
Few here would disagree with you I guess... but the problem is: how do you give the right person a bullet in the head without hitting (too many) innocents...
That is the main problem with this terrorist crap...
JBH22
03-29-2010, 08:21 AM
Few here would disagree with you I guess... but the problem is: how do you give the right person a bullet in the head without hitting (too many) innocents...
That is the main problem with this terrorist crap...
Well i believe the Russians did a good job in Chechnya. I wouldn't criticize them even if Human rights activist thinks otherwise..
Kangars
03-29-2010, 08:24 AM
You should read some Baltic newspapers/forums as well.
You wrong. Latvian speaking forums are full of condolences. Of course there would be exceptions, it the internetz after all.
AlexMartin2
03-29-2010, 08:51 AM
Still makes me wonder why the assholes are such a majority in Helsingin Sanomat forum. I see nobody blaming Putin or sympathazing terrorists here.
You will probably surprised, but such attitude exists even on Russian forums, mostly associated with bunch of so called "liberals" like Kasparov.
They directly blame Putin and say that this terrorist act specially made by FSB to prevent them gathering tomorrow at their annual "Dissent march" where they definitely "overthrow" Putin's regime this time.
Maybe it will be more clear to non-Russian members to understand, why these people (liberals) are so disgusting in eyes of ordinary Russian people. Exactly these people promoting ideas of Yeltsin-style "democracy" and many in the west supported them.
You will probably surprised, but such attitude exists even on Russian forums, mostly associated with bunch of so called "liberals" like Kasparov.
This does not really surprise me. Based from what I have read these "liberals" (Kasparov, Nemtsov etc.) hate their own country.
They are like modern day Bolsheviks. An old Bolshevik saying is: "The worse, the better". I can imagine these people actually being happy about terrorist attacks in Russia because they discredit the Putvedev tandem. This is why the saying "the worse, the better" may suit modern day Russian "liberals" who are nothing but bolsheviks in disguise.
I guess we can say that both Finns and Russian liberals hate Russia. I have really not seen this kind of hostile attitude towards Russia anywhere except in Finnish forums. I have also read English and American forums and most people there condemn the terrorist acts. I just checked the Helsingin Sanomat forum again and the imbeciles there keep blaming Putin and justifying the terrorist acts. They even seem to believe their own words. Those who defend Russia and send condolences are a rarity there. It is almost like people there are happy about what happened.
This does not really surprise me since Finland is the most anti-Russian nation on earth after Kosovo I believe.
BlackHigh
03-29-2010, 09:06 AM
You will probably surprised, but such attitude exists even on Russian forums, mostly associated with bunch of so called "liberals" like Kasparov.
They directly blame Putin and say that this terrorist act specially made by FSB to prevent them gathering tomorrow at their annual "Dissent march" where they definitely "overthrow" Putin's regime this time.
Maybe it will be more clear to non-Russian members to understand, why these people (liberals) are so disgusting in eyes of ordinary Russian people. Exactly these people promoting ideas of Yeltsin-style "democracy" and many in the west supported them.
fully agree, ther are real ignorant f***s out ther, and RIP to the death people, and death to all terrorists
tommy00
03-29-2010, 09:59 AM
You will probably surprised, but such attitude exists even on Russian forums, mostly associated with bunch of so called "liberals" like Kasparov.
They directly blame Putin and say that this terrorist act specially made by FSB to prevent them gathering tomorrow at their annual "Dissent march" where they definitely "overthrow" Putin's regime this time.
http://teplok01.livejournal.com/72446.html
One poll.....
Frutzel
03-29-2010, 10:07 AM
http://teplok01.livejournal.com/72446.html
One poll.....
Your point is?! You can't be serious about this. This time you definitely shown how dense you are
Flamming_Python
03-29-2010, 10:13 AM
Certainly support for the Chechens is never low in Estonia - they used to be best buddies back in the day when the Chechens were beheading 18-year old Russian conscripts. Ain't that right tommy?
Frutzel
03-29-2010, 10:24 AM
I don't know.....You have anything to back your words,...or just spreading your personal delliusions.....
No need to blame me, if many people in Russia vote in netpolls that "Спецслужбы вместе с террористами ради внутриполитических целей" are responsible....
Don't like reality,....you'r problem.....
Sure nobody with the ability to use the internet can vote there. 9/11 was an inside job, there are enough people to believe that, still nobody would seriously try to use that as an argument in a debate. Actually people are getting dumber reading the crap you post
Indiana Jones
03-29-2010, 10:25 AM
Certainly support for the Chechens is never low in Estonia - they used to be best buddies back in the day when the Chechens were beheading 18-year old Russian conscripts. Ain't that right tommy?
"Tommy" can certainly speak for himself, but that is beyond low.
Flamming_Python
03-29-2010, 10:33 AM
"Tommy" can certainly speak for himself, but that is beyond low.
Yeah, so why is his 1st post in every Russia-related thread something that pisses me off? What is that, co-incidence? And now this - before 9/11 made Muslims unpopular, Chechen seperatists were quite widely supported among Baltic nationalist circles; and tommy00 is quite clearly a Baltic nationalist. Really though he may have sympathies towards them or not - I don't know; but if he's content to post complete BS all the time and piss me off - I certainly have the same rights to do the same back to him. That also goes for any other goon who seeks to gloat or spread their delusions at a time of people's misery. Or you think the Americans want me to troll 9/11 threads with accusations of Bush being behind it?
http://teplok01.livejournal.com/72446.html
One poll.....
That proves that there is a lot of conspiracy lovers out there. See, when you beleive in a conspiracy you're autuomatically "different and so much smarter" that the rest.
tommy00
03-29-2010, 10:42 AM
Yeah, so why is his 1st post in every Russia-related thread something that pisses me off? What is that, co-incidence? And now this - before 9/11 made Muslims unpopular, Chechen seperatists were quite widely supported among Baltic nationalist circles; and tommy00 is quite clearly a Baltic nationalist. Really though he may have sympathies towards them or not - I don't know; but if he's content to post complete BS all the time and piss me off - I certainly have the same rights to do the same back to him. That also goes for any other goon who seeks to gloat or spread their delusions at a time of people's misery.
There's always a "Ignore"-button for you to use....So, noone coul'd shake you'r safe, black-and white world....
Don't think, that you'r feelings and "pissing offs"......are any of consern of mine.....
Don't like someone's thoughts, wievs, put him on you'r "ignore" list....
0rphie
03-29-2010, 10:45 AM
My condolence to the victims. RIP. If certain people do not want to live in peace with the neighbors may be they should not live at all.
Indiana Jones
03-29-2010, 10:49 AM
Yeah, so why is his 1st post in every Russia-related thread something that pisses me off? What is that, co-incidence? And now this - before 9/11 made Muslims unpopular, Chechen seperatists were quite widely supported among Baltic nationalist circles; and tommy00 is quite clearly a Baltic nationalist. Really though he may have sympathies towards them or not - I don't know; but if he's content to post complete BS all the time and piss me off - I certainly have the same rights to do the same back to him.
I have no stake in this whatsoever. I looked at his posts in this thread and I do not have the slightest idea what might be offensive about them. If I should be missing something, just go ahead and tell me. I am honestly curious. Anyways, my intuition is, frankly, that you are either just overly sensitive or at least so mired in some friend/foe scheme that you are all too ready to go off half-cocked.
As for his alleged nationalism, I have no idea- I will look into his other posts. Ironically however,you on the other hand certainly fit this description as well, even though I will concede that by Russian standards you are a moderate.
When it comes to posting BS, sure, you have every right to do so. But it does not follow that you'd be well advised doing so- if only for your own sake.
Cheers,
IJ.
Or you think the Americans want me to troll 9/11 threads with accusations of Bush being behind it?
Actually a surprisingly high percentage of Americans believe that Bush did 9/11. Of course we know that it is ridiculous to believe that Bush did 9/11, but nonetheless this is what many people believe.
Any comment on this tommy?
AlexMartin2
03-29-2010, 10:56 AM
http://teplok01.livejournal.com/72446.html
One poll.....
Strangely enough, these people called in western media and by themselves as "the true democrats", while in reality they should be called tinfoil hats and paranoid conspirators :)
Unfortunately such propaganda methods often used in Russian media too. RT as an example.
tommy00
03-29-2010, 11:00 AM
Actually a surprisingly high percentage of Americans believe that Bush did 9/11. Of course we know that it is ridiculous to believe that Bush did 9/11, but nonetheless this is what many people believe.
Any comment on this tommy?
A bit offtoppic, bud since you ask.....
I still remember Bush's face in this event in kindergarten, when the news reach to him......Guy is not that good acter, to play this....So, i don't belive, Bush did 9/11,......BUD, it doesen't mean, that he and his crew didn't use it on his own political "agenda",.....
A bit offtoppic, bud since you ask.....
I still remember Bush's face in this event in kindergarten, when the news reach to him......Guy is not that good acter, to play this....So, i don't belive, Bush did 9/11,......BUD, it doesen't mean, that he and his crew didn't use it on his own political "agenda",.....
I did not ask whether you believe that Bush did 9/11. I asked your comment about many Americans believing that Bush did 9/11. Does it somehow differ from the fact that many Russians also believe that Putin did this metro attack?
Snoshi
03-29-2010, 11:05 AM
I just checked the Helsingin Sanomat forum again and the imbeciles there keep blaming Putin and justifying the terrorist acts. They even seem to believe their own words. Those who defend Russia and send condolences are a rarity there. It is almost like people there are happy about what happened.
This does not really surprise me since Finland is the most anti-Russian nation on earth after Kosovo I believe.
How do you know Finnish? Or do you use the crappy google translator?
tommy00
03-29-2010, 11:12 AM
Strangely enough, these people called in western media and by themselves as "the true democrats", while in reality they should be called tinfoil hats and paranoid conspirators :)
Troble is, i read a lot,.....in Russian-speaking blogroll(LJ)
And the statment....FSB is behind this.....didn't occure not only in "democrats"-pages(as you call them)......bud it was widely presented in a blogs(and comments) of quaite ordinery people.....Wheather they really belived or not,...i don't know,....mayby it's popular to blame it on gouvernment....at least for me it shows how small is people's trust on government....
And to a "easy-hurting" people,...i can post many things, it doesen't mean i always agree with thouse people's statements....
b0sco
03-29-2010, 11:26 AM
Are neo-nazis completely unlikely to be connected with today's attacks?
Are neo-nazis completely unlikely to be connected with today's attacks?
Every scum that exists in Russia will try to get a pice of the pie, claiming "IT WAS US!"
And the "internet warrior liberal scum" will yell "IT WAS PUTIN!"
Sven Dufva
03-29-2010, 11:52 AM
Wow, I just read the Finnish biggest newspapers Helsingin Sanomat's forum about the terrorist attacks.
Practically the 50 first posts were either blaming Putin for the attack or symphatizing the terrorists. Not a single condolence for the Moscow people for the attack. After this I stopped reading.
If this is a general attitude towards Russia in Finland then Finns are a sick, twisted bunch of people. I really hope I'm wrong here.
1.Care to give me a link to the discussion? Only found one and it was not as you described it.
2.I can assure you that "it" is not general attitude towards Russia and her people, an we are NOT sick, twisted bunch of people.
Or maybe I'm just biased :roll:
Tank34
03-29-2010, 12:58 PM
Yeah. But Russia is stuck between a hard place and rock. Since the "end" of the Chechen war the Russian government has been trying to present Chechens as "friendly" people that support Russia. Of course now you can start imposing more harsh checks and stuff. But that will just radicalize more Chechens. Like i said, there is not much Russia ca do aslong as they plan to keep Chechnya happy and part of Russia Federation.
So just kill them all? This is what you suggest?
We already give Chechnya de facto independence after first Chechen war. And all know what happened. The same thing with Afghanistan the same terrorists, same religion. It is not about independence or not. Leave it alone and we would receive radical islamists spawning point that start flooding our country. The same thing with Afghanistan. USSR leave and look what come to power.
Flamming_Python
03-29-2010, 08:10 PM
Ironically however,you on the other hand certainly fit this description as well, even though I will concede that by Russian standards you are a moderate.
You're another one - ever playing the role of the 'biased intellectual' and attempting to rationalise all manner of anti-Russia speak :D
Just kiddin'... but you seriously do talk as much BS as anyone else out there - glass stones, stone houses... you know the saying.
LineDoggie
03-29-2010, 08:39 PM
Are neo-nazis completely unlikely to be connected with today's attacks?Have they done Suicide Attacks previously?
CaptMorgan68
03-29-2010, 08:41 PM
Have they done Suicide Attacks previously?
nope never.. i highly doubt it was neo-nazis.. they would be blowing up anything but the subway.. a bazaar full of migrant workers would be more like it if they were up to such a an attack
LineDoggie
03-29-2010, 09:10 PM
Well I hope that Vengeance against those who perpetrated this savagery against Civilians this day will be swift, sure and final.
Russianlynxy
03-29-2010, 09:15 PM
Are neo-nazis completely unlikely to be connected with today's attacks?
Not really. Neo-Nazi's in Russia are typically very nationalistic so killing a bunch of Russians in a Russian capital in a Russian subway makes absolutely no sense.
Also it's already confirmed that the bombers were "Shahidki" - Female Suicide bomber remains were found.
creativeUsername
03-29-2010, 09:38 PM
Why would the FSB/Putin possibly plan an attack like this? If anything they want the Russian public to accept Chechens and have long lasting peace. The last thing they want is another Chechean war and more terror attacks. Its ridiculous how people will believe the most ****ed up and insane conspiracy theories without thinking twice about it, just like the 9/11 truthers/conspiracy bullcrap.
AlexMartin2
03-29-2010, 11:53 PM
Why would the FSB/Putin possibly plan an attack like this? If anything they want the Russian public to accept Chechens and have long lasting peace. The last thing they want is another Chechean war and more terror attacks. Its ridiculous how people will believe the most ****ed up and insane conspiracy theories without thinking twice about it, just like the 9/11 truthers/conspiracy bullcrap.
Because these people, while had full rights to oppose current government, do it in wrongest way possible. Most of them actually did nothing, except harsh talks in the internet forums. In these talks they go very far, crossing the line from "people care about their country" to "people hate their country".
It is psycological problem, I believe it must be treated by medicine, because it is not possible to treat in other way. If other leader will apper, they will be no different.
Others conduct senseless demonstrations asking government to leave office. If you ask question: what governmnent (and Putin specifically) did wrong, usual answer will be: he did ALL wrong.
If you ask: what must be done right, they will propose a lot of variants, most of them proved very destructive in Yeltsin times. And they even dont know who must be in charge instead of Putin or Medvedev.
Well I hope that Vengeance against those who perpetrated this savagery against Civilians this day will be swift, sure and final.
Unfortunately there are 3 chains: someone who give money, someone who take money and find performers and give order and performers.
Performers usually die, SF usually find these who gave orders and eliminate them, but these who give money are usually untouched.
Russia had no effective ways to find them in Saudi Arabia or in Pakistan, or even in Great Britain.
There is definetely more to be done to improve international cooperation to find and destroy these "investors".
Snoshi
03-30-2010, 03:30 AM
So just kill them all? This is what you suggest?
We already give Chechnya de facto independence after first Chechen war. And all know what happened. The same thing with Afghanistan the same terrorists, same religion. It is not about independence or not. Leave it alone and we would receive radical islamists spawning point that start flooding our country. The same thing with Afghanistan. USSR leave and look what come to power.
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
The solution is to not lose your head over this and act irrationally. Yes, they killed 40 people, and injured many more. But that is no reason to change the way the ordinary citizens live, or to over-react and lash out.
Invest more in intelligence and in intercepting foreign support for these criminals. While this wont be a 100% guarantee this kind of thing wont happen again, nuking the entire Caucasus will not either. As they say, dont "cut off your nose to spite your face".
sarhat
03-30-2010, 07:10 AM
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
There were no panic, you can see it on videos.
Hast2
03-30-2010, 08:21 AM
I have no stake in this whatsoever. I looked at his posts in this thread and I do not have the slightest idea what might be offensive about them.
Let me explain : There's a war going on, terrorists are dying almost daily(often, unfortunately, not only them), terr. acts are not uncommon, radical Muslim movements are strong, then comes tommy and "you, guys, are idiots, i'm Estonian, i know what really happened. I sit in a chair in Estonia, i read anti-government blogs(that a surprise!) on the Internets, i know the truth". I think it's quite offensive.
Btw, tommy, why are you using so many "..." ? So what they say about Estonians(you know...), is true ?
Flamming_Python
03-30-2010, 08:40 AM
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
The fact that these sort of attacks happen only once a half-year or so instead of every day shows that the intelligence agencies (of which Russia has some of the best in the world) are doing their job. For every terrorist success they have multiple failures and this costs resources. Not to mention the large amount of important terrorists killed in the N. Caucasus lately. The war is not going so bad - but it's not over yet, and until it does the Russian people will have to endure attacks like these that slip through the net.
I don't think any insurgency/terrorist/rebel movement can sustain themselves indefinately when their whole territory and borders are controlled by their enemies, sources of funding are becoming more scarce, their leaders are being hunted down and killed, sympathy for them on their land is dwindling, etc... The main thing they have going for them is a large supply of willing recruits, and ability to evolve new tactics. But on the whole - we can see as evidence for example the bounty they place on a cop's head even in Dagestan, has gone up x10 in the last few years; it's becoming harder and harder to be a terrorist these days.
The Dane
03-30-2010, 08:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/-O4pRBV4C14
Xaito
03-30-2010, 08:50 AM
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
panic and fear all over Russia?
I've only seen anger and sorrow so far.
Breakfast in Vegas
03-30-2010, 09:01 AM
The solution is to not lose your head over this and act irrationally. Yes, they killed 40 people, and injured many more. But that is no reason to change the way the ordinary citizens live, or to over-react and lash out.
Invest more in intelligence and in intercepting foreign support for these criminals. While this wont be a 100% guarantee this kind of thing wont happen again, nuking the entire Caucasus will not either. As they say, dont "cut off your nose to spite your face".Agree 100%.
The worst thing to do would let these scumbags interfere with our lives.
We must never let them influence the way we live with their heinous, hateful, murderous campaigns.
0rphie
03-30-2010, 09:01 AM
Actually a surprisingly high percentage of Americans believe that Bush did 9/11. Of course we know that it is ridiculous to believe that Bush did 9/11, but nonetheless this is what many people believe.
Any comment on this tommy?
If W. or anybody close to him was behind 9/11 the current administration would be all trumping about it. O's silence on the matter proves that Bush is not guilty of 9/11.
Breakfast in Vegas
03-30-2010, 09:02 AM
panic and fear all over Russia?
I've only seen anger and sorrow so far.Anxiety yes, panic no.
Terrorist attacks are regrettably fairly common in Moscow. If anything, people are more resilient than ever.
Flamming_Python
03-30-2010, 09:30 AM
Troble is, i read a lot,.....in Russian-speaking blogroll(LJ)
And the statment....FSB is behind this.....didn't occure not only in "democrats"-pages(as you call them)......bud it was widely presented in a blogs(and comments) of quaite ordinery people.....Wheather they really belived or not,...i don't know,....mayby it's popular to blame it on gouvernment....at least for me it shows how small is people's trust on government....
And to a "easy-hurting" people,...i can post many things, it doesen't mean i always agree with thouse people's statements....
So if terrorists attack Estonia as payback for Iraq/Afghanistan what will you say then? That it was the Estonian government behind it?
Xaito
03-30-2010, 10:13 AM
So if terrorists attack Estonia as payback for Iraq/Afghanistan what will you say then? That it was the Estonian government behind it?
no he'll say it's the KGB...
Seriously though - it happens every time - whether it was 9/11 in the US or bombings in Moscow (we all know these were not the first) - there are always people who pop up to shamelessly claim some outrageous theory.
I don't know if they're doing it knowingly or not but they just try to abuse a tragedy as a stage to get some attention or to promote some kind of agenda but all they manage to do is rub salt into fresh wounds.
Tank34
03-30-2010, 02:29 PM
So what do you propose? Not a single intel agency is capable of stopping these kinds of attacks. The bombs were very small, only around 5kg and they killed around 40 people and caused panic and fear all over Russia. What will happen if this attacks will continiue? There is no one to go after.. Sure you can boosts troops in Chechnya and bordering republics, but that will hardly help the situation..
Do not know, but with each terrorist attack i start thinking about deportation in Siberia with ban on relocation in Russia without 20-30 years of quite live. Harsh, but humane and effective method.
And not fear or panic. But anger. Because Chechnya is just financial blackhole from which we cannot get rid.
Azatavrear
03-30-2010, 03:29 PM
You guys keep your heads up over there.
----------------------------
Moscow metro: 19 black widows could launch fresh attacks
Nineteen "black widow" female suicide bombers trained by an Islamist terrorist known as "the Russian Bin Laden" remain at large and may launch fresh attacks on Moscow, Russian investigators have warned.
The warning will heighten fears that Monday's rush-hour suicide attack on the Moscow metro by two women may just be the start of a large-scale terror campaign.
Investigators have said they were trying to confirm whether the two women were part of what was originally a 30-strong female "martyrs' brigade".
The terrorist who trained the brigade, an Islamist convert calling himself Said Buryatsky, was killed in a special forces operation earlier this month in Ingushetia, a strife-torn region bordering Chechnya. He was known as the Islamist rebel movement's ideologue-in-chief in southern Russia and the media had dubbed him "the Russian Bin Laden."
Investigators said the late terrorist, whose real name was Alexander Tikhomirov, had recruited 30 potential female suicide bombers in Chechnya and Ingushetia and dispatched them to Turkey to be taught the precepts of radical Islam in an unnamed Madrasah.
On their return to Russia, he had personally continued their "education." The women are known as "black widows" because they have usually lost husbands or close relatives in clashes with Russian forces and are motivated by a desire for revenge.
Nine of the original thirty brigade members are known to have already blown themselves up in the lawless North Caucasus region along Russia's southern flank where suicide attacks started up again last year after a long pause.
But that, say investigators, leaves 19 "black widows" at large.
The Moscow metro attack may have been vengeance for his death, they added
Article continue at........
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/7538556/Moscow-metro-19-black-widows-could-launch-fresh-attacks.html
Flamming_Python
03-30-2010, 08:01 PM
Do not know, but with each terrorist attack i start thinking about deportation in Siberia with ban on relocation in Russia without 20-30 years of quite live. Harsh, but humane and effective method.
And not fear or panic. But anger. Because Chechnya is just financial blackhole from which we cannot get rid.
Deportation of who - the people? How will that get rid of the terrorists?
You are mistaking a bunch of punks on the street with organised, well-trained mercenaries and their backers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/29/echoes-savagery-moscow-attacks-retribution?showallcomments=true#start-of-comments
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The echoes of savagery
A violent response by the Kremlin to the brutal Moscow attacks can only fuel a cycle of retribution
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Comments (166) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/29/echoes-savagery-moscow-attacks-retribution#start-of-comments)
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Oliver Bullough (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/oliverbullough)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Monday 29 March 2010 22.00 BST
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/29/echoes-savagery-moscow-attacks-retribution?showallcomments=true#history-link-box)
Five years ago, perhaps the news that two women had exploded themselves and at least 38 blameless commuters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8593961.stm) in Moscow would have left us numb, rather than shocked and despairing. We were more used to it then. But half a decade has passed without such an atrocity, and surely everyone had begun to hope the days of brutality (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/29/Moscow%20metro%20bombs%20kill%20dozens) were over.
Already Russian officials have speculated about the help the women must have needed to commit these acts of mass murder. Inevitably, they have used the words "outside forces" – that is, a catch-all term that includes anyone they see as enemies of Russia: the CIA, MI6, al-Qaida, and so on. Without such help, they say, Russia's scattered insurgents could surely never have mustered up the strength to do this.
But, in reality, these are some of the cheapest of crimes. All you need to commit mass murder on the Moscow metro is know-how, explosives, wires, detonators – all of which are in plentiful supply in the North Caucasus, almost certainly the source of the attack – and women.
The tragedy of the Chechen war, and the savagery from both sides that has turned Chechnya from a prosperous backwater to a brutalised sink, is that it has created so many traumatised victims. On the Russian side, these are ex-servicemen sent back to their homes with minimal support and memories full of death. On the Chechen side, these are young men scarred by torture, and young women, often raped, often widowed.
In a previous wave of suicide bombings in Moscow, two women blew themselves up at a rock concert in 2003 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/suicide-bombers-kill-16-at-moscow-rock-festival-585950.html). They had been sent north from Chechnya with a companion, Zarema Muzhakhoyeva, and four days after the murder of the 15 concert-goers, she too set out to kill. Her nerve failed her, however, and she surrendered, becoming the only witness we have to the depths of despair Chechen women have to plumb before they will commit such acts.
She revealed after her arrest how Shamil Basayev, the most terrible of the Chechen warlords until his death in 2006, recruited women to wage war. One of the women who attacked the concert had been widowed; the other ordered to go by her husband. As for her, she had lost her husband, then had her child taken from her. Her attempt to steal back her child had left her in debt and disgrace, and becoming a suicide bomber was the only way she could see of redeeming both.
It is impossible not to condemn someone who sets out to commit slaughter even if, like her, they do not go through with it. But it is also impossible not to condemn a situation where the only support available for despairing young women is the brutal arm of the Chechen resistance.
The reality of the Chechen war is little understood in Russia, where people have willed it to be over for so long they imagine that it is. There was a telling exchange in the trial of Nurpashi Kulayev, who was sentenced to life on terrorism charges as the only survivor of the band that seized the school in Beslan in 2004.
The judge asked Kulayev how he knew so much about military affairs, and the defendant replied: "You have been teaching me this for 10 years". He, like hundreds of thousands of Chechens, had lived in a brutal war for all his adult life and never needed training to tell one kind of tank from another. It is part of the problem that not even a judge knew that.
In 1991, when Chechnya's post-communist leader decided to declare independence, it was not inevitable that the war would turn savage. The other post-Soviet conflicts in the Caucasus – involving Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia – were fought between armies of men with guns. Only in Chechnya did schools, theatres and commuter trains become targets.
Every incident has provoked a response; and every response has provoked an incident, until all bonds of humanity have been severed. The first sign this was happening came in 1995, when Basayev and his men seized a hospital to demand an end to the war. His lieutenant tried to justify the attack by saying it was nothing compared to the Russian bombing of his home village.
"Why was the world silent when Shali was bombed, when some 400 people were killed and wounded? In fact, the evil we did in Budyonnovsk was not even 30% of what they did in Shali," he said.
It had appeared that, with Basayev's death, the Chechens had rejected such a terrible, self-defeating philosophy. Now it seems they have not. We just have to hope the Russian response serves to end the cycle of retribution. If they lash out once more, the violence may never end
Another "unbiased" article from Guardian. Wow, the British media really "loves" Russia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/02/massacre-woods-war-moscow-metro
Massacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro
Luke Harding in Ingushetia reports on the murder of four teenagers that inspired bombings
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Luke Harding (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/lukeharding)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Friday 2 April 2010 19.54 BST
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/02/massacre-woods-war-moscow-metro#history-link-box)
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/2/1270234122284/Movsar-Dakaev-001.jpg Movsar Dakaev, 17, photographed on the garlic-picking expedition in the woods between Chechnya and Ingushetia that led to his death. Photograph: Memorial
When the shooting started Adlan Mutsaev and his friends were in the woods picking garlic. They had arrived in the forest earlier that day, together with a group of neighbours travelling in a battered coach. The plan had been straightforward: stuff their sacks, enjoy the countryside, and then head back home to the Chechen town of Achkoi-Martan.
Without warning, Russian commandos hiding behind a hillock opened fire.Adlan, 16, was with his brother Arbi, 19, and their friends Shamil Kataev, 19, and Movsar Tataev, 19. Shamil and Movsar were both wounded. Adlan was shot in the leg, but managed to hobble into a ditch. He hid. Arbi also attempted to flee, but men in camouflage fatigues caught up with him.
According to the human rights group Memorial, Arbi was forced to drag his two wounded and bleeding friends across the snow. Shamil begged for his life. But the solders were impervious. They placed a blindfold over Arbi's eyes. And then they opened fire: executing Shamil and Movsar on the spot. At least two other garlic pickers suffered the same fate: Ramzan Susaev, 40, and Movsar Dakaev, 17. According to his relatives, Dakaev had pleaded to be allowed on the trip with the others. Wearing a bright green fleece, he took a photo of himself in the woods with his mobile phone. It shows him proudly posing against a craggy backdrop of cliffs and trees covered in snow. A little over 48 hours later his body was discovered.
The misfortune of the four garlic pickers was to have unwittingly strayed into a "counter-insurgency operation" conducted by Russian forces in the densely wooded border between Chechnya (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/chechnya) and Ingushetia. The soldiers, apparently looking for militant rebels who are waging their own violent campaign against the Russian state, came across the unarmed group, brutally killing them amid the picturesque massif of low hills.
Normally this atrocity on a cold day in February would have raised barely a ripple of attention had it not been for the terrible events in Moscow this week. In a video address on Thursday, Chechnya's chief insurgent leader, Doku Umarov, said Monday's suicide attacks on the Russian capital's metro were in revenge for the killings of the garlic pickers near the Ingush village of Arshaty. He claimed federal security service (FSB) commandos had used knives to mutilate their bodies of the dead boys.
Forty people died and more than 70 were injured when two suicide attackers from the North Caucasus set off their devices at stations outside the headquarters of the FSB and Park Kultury.
Russia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/russia)'s counter-terrorism committee yesterday named the Park Kultury bomber as Dzhanet Abdurakhmanova, saying she was also known as Dzhanet Abdullayeva. Born in 1992, she came from Dagestan. Kommersant newspaper published a photo of her dressed in a black Muslim headscarf holding a pistol. It named the second bomber as 20-year-old Markha Ustarkhanova from Chechnya, describing her as the widow of a militant leader killed last October.
Linked or not, human rights groups say it is undeniable that the brutal actions of Russia's security forces have fuelled the insurgency raging across the North Caucasus region of Russia and the ethnic republics of Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya and Kabardino-Balkaria. This largely invisible war has now reached the Kremlin's doorstep.
"People are abducted. People are killed. There are no guarantees of security," Magomed Mutsolgov, a human rights activist, told the Guardian yesterday, speaking from Nazran, Ingushetia's chief town. Law enforcement and security agencies have committed dozens of summary and arbitrary detentions, acts of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, as well as extra-judicial executions, rights groups say.
Typically, armed personnel wearing masks encircle a village or district in a "sweep operation". They force their way into homes, beat residents and damage property. Suspected militants are taken away. Many never return. Others are simply shot, and fake weapons planted on them, rights groups allege, citing interviews with victims and relatives.
According to Mutsolgov, the Kremlin's counter-terrorism methods have proved entirely counter-productive: "Violence produces more violence. It drives people to the militant underground."
The nature of the armed conflict in the North Caucasus has also mutated. From 1994 to 1996 Boris Yeltsin fought a war against mainly secular Chechen separatists who wanted – like the newly independent Georgians over the mountains – their own constitution and state. In 1999-2004 president Vladimir Putin fought a second Chechen war. The aim was to crush Chechen separatism.
Now, however, the Kremlin is battling another kind of enemy. The new generation of insurgents have an explicitly Islamist goal: to create a radical pan-Caucasian emirate with sharia law, a bit like Afghanistan under the Taliban. In February Umarov vowed to "liberate" not only the North Caucasus and Krasnodar Krai but Astrakhan – on the Caspian Sea -and the Volga region as well.
The rebels' tactics have also grown more fanatical. Umarov has seemingly revived the suicide squads used by his assassinated predecessor Shamil Basaev. Last summer a suicide truck bomber blew up Nazran's police station. Another bomber succeeded in ramming the car of Ingushetia's president, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov. Monday's attack in Moscow was the first in the capital for six years.
Increasingly, the rebels are also exploiting a new weapon: the web. On 2 March special forces launched a massive operation in Ekashevo, a suburb on the outskirts of Nazran. There they killed Said Buryatsky, a Siberian-born convert whose jihadist messages on YouTube had attracted a following among disaffected Muslims. Under fire from Russian artillery, Buryatksy recorded a final message for his global disciples.
Yesterday Russian forces had sealed off Ekashevo. But video footage obtained by Memorial shows a picture of devastation: pulverised houses, wrecked cars and alleyways strewn with bricks. After the battle Russian forces displayed a haul of weapons seized from the rebels – together with a blown-off human hand.
Human rights groups are critical of both sides. They accuse the rebels and government of failing to respect human life. Timur Akiev, the head of Memorial's Nazran office, said: "The government's methods have led to a radicalisation of the underground. The rebels now have only one goal: to beat Russia at any price. The rebels and the security forces behave in the same way towards each other. The civilian population is caught in the middle."
Like its imperial tsarist predecessors, who subdued the Caucasus in a sustained and savage campaign of tree-felling and village-burning, today's Russian leadership has little understanding of the region or its habits, Akiev suggested.
He also condemned Monday's bombings. "I don't understand how you can kill Russian civilians in revenge for the killing of Chechen civilians. It's absurd. The people who died in the metro had nothing to do with the conflict."
The Kremlin's response to the metro bombings has been, predictably, vengeful. Vladimir Putin has called for those responsible to be "scraped from the sewers". Dmitry Medvedev, the president, visited Kizlyar on Thursday, a day after twin suicide bombers killed 12 people and injured 28 others.
Security forces should "get more cruel", he recommended. "Quite a lot has been achieved in fighting terrorism lately," Medvedev said. "We have twisted the heads off the most odious bandits. But that, by all accounts, is not enough. We will track them down and punish all of them. We must deal sharp dagger blows to the terrorists, and destroy them and their lairs."
Before Monday's Moscow bombings, Medvedev had taken a few tentatively creative steps in the region, including appointing a new federal envoy. But the key problems remain. There are numerous socio-economic factors driving the insurgency: poverty, unemployment (running unofficially at around 75% in Ingushetia), police brutality, and corruption.
Back in Achkoi-Martan, it took relatives two days to discover what had happened to their loved ones. After hiding for 48 hours in a hole, fed by a spring, Adlan Mutaev crawled out of the forest. Local people discovered him alive on the edge of the wood. His brother Arbi was released by Russian commandos after two days. Human rights workers from Memorial arrived on 14 February, interviewing dozens of witnesses and taking photographs of corpses heaped up in the snow.
Those of Shamil Kataev revealed that he had been shot in the temple from close range. Someone had stolen his mobile phone and passport, as well as a letter from the head of Achkoi-Martin, granting the garlic pickers permission to be in the area. The body of Movsar Tataev was covered in gunshot wounds. In addition there were knife wounds to his spine and groin. Ramzan Susaev had been shot in the chest. His brother eventually found his body lying in the forest.
Unusually, Ingushetia's president Yevkurov quickly acknowledged that several innocent civilians had been killed in February's special operation. He added, however, that security forces had succeeded in killing 18 rebels, and said that the operation had served to increase the stability of the region. Both Chechnya and Ingushetia's rulers have paid the families of the dead teenage boys compensation.
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