Serbia offers apology for Srebrenica massacre [Archive]

kalerab

03-31-2010, 02:49 AM

Serbia offers apology for Srebrenica massacre
AP

By JOVANA GEC, Associated Press Writer Jovana Gec, Associated Press Writer – Tue Mar 30, 10:41 pm ET

BELGRADE, Serbia – Serbia's parliament approved a declaration Tuesday condemning the 1995 Serb massacre of 8,000 Muslims in Srebrenica, in a bid to distance the country from past warmongering under the late strongman Slobodan Milosevic.

The declaration passed with a slim majority of 127 votes in the 250-seat parliament, after a daylong debate that underscored persisting divisions in the country over Serbia's role in the 1990s conflict.

"The National Assembly of Serbia harshly condemns the crime committed against the Bosnian residents of Srebrenica in July 1995 ... expressing condolences and apology to the victims' families because not all was done to prevent this tragedy," the declaration says.

The declaration was put forward by the ruling pro-Western coalition, which said it would promote regional reconciliation and Serbia's effort to become a member of the European Union.

EU officials have told Belgrade's leaders they must break away from Milosevic's policies if they want to move closer to the bloc.

Nationalist lawmakers rejected the Srebrenica declaration as "shameful" and "unjust." They insisted fewer people were killed in Srebrenica and denied Western accusations of mass executions.

"Serbia will sign its own guilt with this declaration," said Slobodan Samardzic, a nationalist deputy.

Velimir Ilic, another opposition lawmaker, asked: "Why do you want to put a mark on the future generations that they will never wash away?"

In Sarajevo, Bosnian Muslim survivors also said they were unhappy with the declaration because it failed to call the killings a genocide, in accordance with rulings by international courts.

"Genocide was committed," said Sabra Mujic, whose husband was killed in Srebrenica. "As long as we are alive, we will pass on to the future generations that it was genocide."

The execution of Srebrenica's men and boys by Bosnian Serb troops was Europe's worst carnage since World War II. It has become a symbol of the atrocities of the Balkan wars.

The EU also wants Serbia to arrest ex-Bosnian Serb army commander Ratko Mladic, who was charged with genocide by a U.N. court for orchestrating the Srebrenica massacre.

The parliamentary declaration on Srebrenica calls for the arrest of Mladic and urges authorities to do all they can to find him, even as some nationalist deputies called Mladic a "Serbian hero" during the debate.

Former Bosnian Serb political leader Radovan Karadzic is being prosecuted by the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, for allegedly masterminding Serb atrocities throughout the Bosnian war, including the Srebrenica massacre.

Karadzic has refused to enter a plea, but insists he is innocent of charges that he ordered atrocities, including the shelling and sniping campaign that killed thousands of civilians in the Bosnian capital, Sarajevo, and the executions in Srebrenica.

In 2009, a European Parliament resolution condemned the Srebrenica massacre as genocide and called on the region to commemorate its July anniversary. The Hague-based International Court of Justice also has ruled that genocide was committed in Srebrenica, and that Serbia had not done enough to prevent it.

___

Associated Press writer Aida Cerkez-Robinson contributed to this report from Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/ap_on_re_eu/eu_serbia_srebrenica

Jurinko

03-31-2010, 05:18 AM

What about Bosnian Serbs? They were personally responsible.

Anyway, it is a step in good direction. Turkey, have a look.

AcoRS

03-31-2010, 06:05 AM

Since you bring that point up why don't you also be fair and mention the other 2 sides? They haven't even acknowledged that they even committed war crimes let alone apologized for any of them...

Stefan850

03-31-2010, 06:05 AM

What about Bosnian Serbs?

.

On 10 November 2004, the government of Republika Srpska issued an official apology. The statement came after a government review of the Srebrenica committee's report. "The report makes it clear that enormous crimes were committed in the area of Srebrenica in July 1995. The Bosnian Serb Government shares the pain of the families of the Srebrenica victims, is truly sorry and apologises for the tragedy." the Bosnian Serb government said

If that's what you were trying to ask, if not I misunderstood.

Limanac

03-31-2010, 06:30 AM

Since you bring that point up why don't you also be fair and mention the other 2 sides? They haven't even acknowledged that they even committed war crimes let alone apologized for any of them...

X2
It would be good for them to do same, so that we can finally put and to that episode of our history. If not than we(serbs,croats,muslims) will have arguments for verbal and maybe physical(war) fight for another 50 years.

SERBIAN HERO

03-31-2010, 06:36 AM

X2
It would be good for them to do same, so that we can finally put and to that episode of our history. If not than we(serbs,croats,muslims) will have arguments for verbal and maybe physical(war) fight for another 50 years.

It's good to see somebody is thinking in advance, we serbs are only good at drinking and fighting! Now we have arguments for new war just as Limanac said! Prepare brothers!
Pomoz Bog braćo Srbi!

WDECT

03-31-2010, 06:47 AM

^^^ I wonder how long you will last without getting banned

creativeUsername

03-31-2010, 06:49 AM

martinexsquaddie

03-31-2010, 06:51 AM

The other sides all committed war crimes albiet nothing on the scale of serebenica.
Would be good if there was some sort of accounting by all sides

Limanac

03-31-2010, 07:07 AM

War is worst case scenario that probably and i hope will not happened.

@SERBIAN HERO
I can bet that you will gonna be one of the first volunteers in next war :).

Stefan850

03-31-2010, 07:09 AM

What next war? Get it together guys, leave dinner table politics and rants at your dinner tables.

Limanac

03-31-2010, 07:16 AM

Stefan, it was a joke on SERBIAN HERO account, nothing serious.

AcoRS

03-31-2010, 07:21 AM

The other sides all committed war crimes albiet nothing on the scale of serebenica.
Would be good if there was some sort of accounting by all sides

Well I am not sure what you call the forceful expelling of well over 200 000 Serbs from Krajina region in Croatia , several thousand were also killed in the process... ? Croatia still celebrates that as a day of Victory so i don't think they will be apologizing any time soon.

Anyway I am not trying to point fingers and play the blame game, just making a point that Serbia shouldn't be criticized for making an apology but rather followed up with the same in return, only when all sides decide to do so can we all move on.

PS ignore the troll , he wont last long!

variable

03-31-2010, 07:38 AM

This thread is already going down the drain.

Hyde

03-31-2010, 07:54 AM

It's good to see somebody is thinking in advance, we serbs are only good at drinking and fighting! Now we have arguments for new war just as Limanac said! Prepare brothers!
Pomoz Bog braćo Srbi!

Get out of here.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if you were fake to put serbs in a bad light, altough I do know that there are people out there who are actually thinking the way you "do". Both options are possible.

VanZorich

03-31-2010, 08:28 AM

Why is Serbia apologising for the actions of RS? This seems like a way to force Serbia to accept all the blame for what happend in the 90s. I guarantee you this was a requirement for the EU candidate application. Just how much **** are they actually willing to take from the rest of Europe just to get in the EU?

Yes, why indeed?
I think now is time that Republica Srpska (RS) issues an official apology to NATO becouse of Serbias horrendous crime of downing an F117 in 1999.
It would be the same thing.

Gentius

03-31-2010, 08:35 AM

Well done!

Telmar

03-31-2010, 08:51 AM

Congratulations to Serbia.

I have to say that after having heard that, I was amazed at how bravely Serbia is digesting the last 20 years of unrest in Yugoslavia and accepting its share of responsibility, and how politically courageous are some of their politicians who in this case do deserve the label "statesmen".

It takes a lot of guts to apologize just for the sake of doing the "right thing". And doing it so fast after the events. I don´t know any such example as of today.

All Serbs can be very proud, wether they agreed or not.

TeslaN

03-31-2010, 09:04 AM

Apology?

NOT IN MY NAME.

Stefan850

03-31-2010, 09:17 AM

I personally, have absolutely no problems with this.

There is a point that crimes against Serbs and Serbian victims are forgoten by the world but does that mean we shouldn't say anything about Srebrenica? Of course it doesn't.
Do we have or need to wait till Bosnians or Croats talk about Serb victims before we talk about their? No, we dont, one doesn't have nothing to do with the other. Srebrenica was a terrible crime.
My mother argues how the world will demonize us now even more but if someone thinks my country is filled with savages so be it, there is nothing we could do to argue with such a person.
A crime is a crime, and because there are a lot of Serbs that died in a terrible death, we owe it to them, to the poor Serbian victims to say and condemn all crimes and terrible massacres, done in "there" name.
And to be perfectly honest, I think there is a better chance for us to be heard when we talk about our victims if we condemn our crimes and arrest Ratko Mladic.

djeneral

03-31-2010, 09:31 AM

what apology????what is with serbs from bratunac,naser oric and his group kill 4000 serbs on ortodox crismas eve,belive or not he is a free man....

matthew.manhorn

03-31-2010, 09:36 AM

Congrats.

Only if the Turkish government and the CCP can do the same...

lightfire

03-31-2010, 09:44 AM

Nationalistic trolls here show just how fractionated Serbia is over the question. But it made a right decision, time to move on/

Sousuke

03-31-2010, 09:54 AM

Atlantic Friend

03-31-2010, 09:58 AM

coltfan111

03-31-2010, 10:08 AM

Sousuke

03-31-2010, 10:13 AM

Yer dude, and I thought Banthius came out with some :roll: statements.

Sort it out.
Lets not get the sh!t going again gents. He has been reported and banned, any future trolls and smartasses will share the same fate.

Stay on topic and ignore them.

IcyHot

03-31-2010, 10:19 AM

This is bull**** , 8000 people is not a genocide and more than half of this men died on the front but they registred them as srebrenica victims, why they exhumed only 4000 bodies.

kalerab

03-31-2010, 11:34 AM

This is bull**** , 8000 people is not a genocide and more than half of this men died on the front but they registred them as srebrenica victims, why they exhumed only 4000 bodies.

What does it matter, thousands of civies died and that´s all that matters and that´s what Serbia apologized for. In my opinion it´s the bravest thing one can do - accept their mistakes, take responsibility for the dark past and apologize for them. For me it´s proof that Serbs can and are dealing with their past, something most European nations can´t do and I hope others will follow. Lot of bad things happened during the Yugoslav wars, either each nation will face their share of responsibility and acknowledge it or they will repeat their mistakes, Serbs just now put an example worthy to follow. Contugratulations.

Stefan850

03-31-2010, 12:01 PM

"Declaration represents distancing from crimes" 31 March 2010 | 17:17 | Source: B92, FoNet, Tanjug BELGRADE -- Boris Tadić said that with the adoption of the Srebrenica declaration parliament and the Serb people are clearly distancing themselves from the monstrous crime.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2010/03/10027867574bb36880199a4784858036_MidCol.jpgBoris Tadić (Tanjug, file)

The Serbian president said in Belgrade on Wednesday that the resolution shows that Serbia does not stand behind the crimes, and that is why the adoption is important for Serbia and its citizens, adding that it is an expression of patriotism and contributes to regional reconciliation.

“I believe that this resolution contributes greatly to the democratization of Serbia and regional reconciliation. I am sorry that it was not adopted earlier, but my then visit to Srebrenica and this resolution speak clearly on the political values of Serbia and how we see our region, our neighbors and out united European future,” Tadić said.

He said that the resolution does not include the word “genocide” because the parliament was dealing with a political act, not a legal qualification.

“There was no pressure from any international organization or institution to adopt the resolution for Srebrenica. It was our decision, the decision of the Serbian people. Serbia does this for itself,” Tadić said.

Socialist Party of Serbia leader and Interior Minister Ivica Dačić said that the resolution stresses state and national interests and protects the Republic of Srpska.

He said that the resolution for condemning war crimes committed against Serbs and other ethnicities during the war will be discussed by the parliament after the Eater holidays, once it has been drafted.

Dačić said that he believes that the second resolution will be acceptable for a large number of MPs.

He added that the authors of the resolution “are the same people who wrote the first resolution,” and repeated that the stance of his party is that all crimes that were committed on the territory of the former Yugoslavia should be condemned.

Serbia has made a great step forward by passing the declaration condemning the crime in Srebrenica, Serbia's Minister of Labor and Social Policy Rasim Ljajić stated on Wednesday, and added that the regional countries are expected to condemn the crimes against Serbs, which will be another step forward toward reconciliation.

Ljajić told Tanjug that the process of regional reconciliation will be neither easy nor quick, especially not in times of the economic crisis.

“In times when the country is faced with a strong financial and social crisis, some political parties think that they can improve their ratings with rhetoric of past,” said Ljajić, who is the founder of the Sandžak Democratic Party which has four MPs in the Serbian parliament.

The minister thinks that the declaration was not passed because of the international community, and added that Serbia should not do anything just because someone asks for it.

“Serbia passed the declaration because of its own interests, and by that the country claimed the right to the place it is entitled to as the leading regional country,” Ljajić is convinced.

creativeUsername

03-31-2010, 12:33 PM

A very commendable move by Serbian authorities. Those who think modern Serbia belittled itself by offering apologies for what some did in its name should think again. By accepting to bear some of the moral responsibility and offering its apologies, Serbia instead showed it was not afraid to face the darker corners of its recent past - and now the pressure is on the other parties to Yugoslavia's bloody civil war to respond in kind. As Stefan said, a crime is a crime, and it does not honor the Serbian victims of that war to brandish them as justification for more deaths.

And theres the problem, they wont. Simple as that. They have no pressure on them to do so. Croatias already on the way to the EU and its in NATO, like i said, theres a reason only the pro west/EU parties voted in favour of this, because the EU officials demanded this privately. My problem isnt with the apology, my problem is the motive behind it, and the EU using membership to control Serbia like some battered wife that has nowhere else to go.

GottLuft

03-31-2010, 12:33 PM

Stefan850

03-31-2010, 12:59 PM

I think that politicians in RS should do that before official Serbia,but I think they still didn't...Politicians like Milorad Dodik always add fuel to the fire with their statements...but anway this is good news from official Serbia.

You could read the whole thread and then you would know instead of thinking wrong.

As I already quoted on the first page

On 10 November 2004, the government of Republika Srpska issued an official apology. The statement came after a government review of the Srebrenica committee's report. "The report makes it clear that enormous crimes were committed in the area of Srebrenica in July 1995. The Bosnian Serb Government shares the pain of the families of the Srebrenica victims, is truly sorry and apologises for the tragedy." the Bosnian Serb government said

Bathinus

03-31-2010, 01:29 PM

What about Bosnian Serbs? They were personally responsible.

.
They're pretty much pissed. They see this is as betrayal by Serbia and their leaders have stated this. That it doesnt fit RS or Serb interests. At least thats what Bosnian Serb news is reporting.

Even in Serbia itself the sentiment is strong.

But opposition deputies criticised the text, describing it as "shameful" for Serbia. Some nationalist politicians voted against, while others abstained in protest.
Velimir Ilic, an opposition MP, said: "Why do you want to put a mark on the future generations that they will never wash away?"
As if the fact that it even happend wasn't alrady "a mark". Only admitting it is.

In reality this official apology really means nothing and won't change anyones feeling about anything because there's no sense of regret or apology in the people themsevles on the ground in Bosnia. So its nice, but reality stays the same.

Why is Serbia apologising for the actions of RS? This seems like a way to force Serbia to accept all the blame for what happend in the 90s. I guarantee you this was a requirement for the EU candidate application. Just how much **** are they actually willing to take from the rest of Europe just to get in the EU?

Guys from Serbia were involved in the killing. In the 'Scorpions'. They're the ones on the famous video tape. Besides, its not breaking news or anything that during the war Serbia helped the Bosnian Serbs just like Croatia helped Croats. Well they helped while it still looked promising anyway.

RWR

03-31-2010, 02:41 PM

Serbia's step towards redemption

A resolution apologising for allowing the Srebrenica massacre should be lauded – but an alleged war criminal still escapes trial

Last night Serbia's parliament, with a narrow majority, passed a resolution on Srebrenica (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/31/serbia.srebrenica/). Obviously, this was a long and difficult struggle to achieve, and has lasted 15 years.
The text reads: "The parliament of Serbia strongly condemns the crime committed against the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica in July 1995." It also formally extends an apology to the families of the victims, albeit in timid way, because "not everything was done to prevent the tragedy" .

Let us remind ourselves of what happened in Srebrenica: almost 15 years ago, on 13 July 1995, the army of the Republika Srpska together with Yugoslav troops (controlled by Serbia) under the command of General Ratko Mladic, executed some 8,000 mostly civilian Bosnian Muslim men in less than a week. In the trial at the international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), Mladic's deputy commander, Radislav Krstic, was tried for genocide and sentenced to 46 years in prison.

Srebrenica became the proof that it was possible to experience genocide in Europe even after the extermination of 6 million Jews. Also, let us remember that genocide is not defined by numbers of people killed, but primarily by the intention to exterminate a certain ethnic group or a nation. It is good to have this resolution first and foremost because Serbia, from Slobodan Milosevic downwards, always strongly denied any involvement in the war in Bosnia and responsibility for this massacre. Furthermore, Serbs even denied that the massacre (not to mention genocide) ever happened: students of the law school at the University in Belgrade proclaimed just that a few years ago.

But now, Serbia is recognising the fact that 8 000 Bosniaks were killed, and officially acknowledging responsibility for their massacre. Although not bringing about catharsis, this document no longer leaves room for denial.
But the resolution does not recognise that massacre in Srebrenica was an act of genocide, as defined by the ICTY. Victims' relatives also do not recognise it as a gesture of genuine regret – but as a political motion pushed through in order to facilitate joining the EU. It is interpreted as a half-measure, because the key alleged war criminal – Ratko Mladic – is still at large, as Serbia refuses to extradite him to the ICTY.
It is evident that the resolution is forced by the political will and has a formal character. But the political will to deal with this issue is extremely important, and the parliament of Serbia should be credited with that. Political will is still the key to resolving of any affairs in the Balkans.
If one has to summarise the importance of the resolution in one sentence, it could be: Good, but not good enough. However, in its validation, one should take a look at the Turks, and their long-standing problems with recognition of the Armenian genocide. Last but not least, it helps remembering that the most successful de-nazification process, forced on Germany by allies, took not years, but decades. The Srebrenica resolution should be greeted with cautious benevolence, but Mladic's extradition is Serbia's next crucial step.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/31/serbia-srebenica-massacre-bosnia

Jippo

03-31-2010, 03:06 PM

A very strong, bold and honest move. I have respect for that.

This is a good start for future development by all sides of the conflict.

OrangeWolf

03-31-2010, 03:50 PM

There are many peoples and nations who still have similar crimes to apologize for, including in the Balkans.

Nevertheless, a good movie by Serbia. And let's hope for Europe-wide reconciliation in the long run.

Hyde

03-31-2010, 05:53 PM

And theres the problem, they wont. Simple as that. They have no pressure on them to do so. Croatias already on the way to the EU and its in NATO, like i said, theres a reason only the pro west/EU parties voted in favour of this, because the EU officials demanded this privately. My problem isnt with the apology, my problem is the motive behind it, and the EU using membership to control Serbia like some battered wife that has nowhere else to go.

Doesn't matter if they do it or not. Serbia is being the bigger Person here, standing by the crimes commited by their past leaderships and apologizing for them. If the others behave like immature children, it's not Serbia's problem and it can, with ease, feel free to look down on them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/31/serbia-srebenica-massacre-bosnia

"together with Yugoslav troops (controlled by Serbia)"

- There were no Yugoslav troops in Bosnia, and there were no Yugoslav troops involved in Srebrenica. It was Mladic's VRS.

"because the key alleged war criminal – Ratko Mladic – is still at large, as Serbia refuses to extradite him to the ICTY."
"but Mladic's extradition is Serbia's next crucial step."

- This passage tries to suggest that Serbia has Mladic but refuses to extradite him. Which is wrong. Serbia doesn't have Mladic and is still looking for him. Most signs indicate that he is hiding in Russia (frequent travels of his son and his lawyer to Russia etc...). Everyone with half a brain knows that the Serbian Police is really trying to get him, blantly suggesting that he is in reach of the Serbia Police or even that Serbia has him is just iniquitous.

"Last but not least, it helps remembering that the most successful de-nazification process, forced on Germany by allies, took not years, but decades. "

- Now they are comparing Serbia with Nazi Germany? Seriously, how sick are those people? And how sick must one be to actually believe in it and appreciate what they write? Because it's so obviously wrong, so still needing to believe in this fabricated and wrong picture of the world really shows that someone needs his world of make-believe...

Shurik SST

03-31-2010, 06:22 PM

Afterglow

03-31-2010, 06:27 PM

Congrats to Serbia, it is a step in right direction and an honorable move. Respect.

Gentius

03-31-2010, 06:53 PM

G-AWZT

03-31-2010, 07:04 PM

Doesn't matter if they do it or not. Serbia is being the bigger Person here, standing by the crimes commited by their past leaderships and apologizing for them. If the others behave like immature children, it's not Serbia's problem and it can, with ease, feel free to look down on them.

"together with Yugoslav troops (controlled by Serbia)"

- There were no Yugoslav troops in Bosnia, and there were no Yugoslav troops involved in Srebrenica. It was Mladic's VRS.

"because the key alleged war criminal – Ratko Mladic – is still at large, as Serbia refuses to extradite him to the ICTY."
"but Mladic's extradition is Serbia's next crucial step."

- This passage tries to suggest that Serbia has Mladic but refuses to extradite him. Which is wrong. Serbia doesn't have Mladic and is still looking for him. Most signs indicate that he is hiding in Russia (frequent travels of his son and his lawyer to Russia etc...). Everyone with half a brain knows that the Serbian Police is really trying to get him, blantly suggesting that he is in reach of the Serbia Police or even that Serbia has him is just iniquitous.

"Last but not least, it helps remembering that the most successful de-nazification process, forced on Germany by allies, took not years, but decades. "

- Now they are comparing Serbia with Nazi Germany? Seriously, how sick are those people? And how sick must one be to actually believe in it and appreciate what they write? Because it's so obviously wrong, so still needing to believe in this fabricated and wrong picture of the world really shows that someone needs his world of make-believe...

Dude it's the Guardian with their usual bias.

Was Srebrenica a massacre.......................yes.
Was Srebrenica genocide...........................no.

Rwanda was genocide.

JaNk0

03-31-2010, 08:11 PM

G-AWZT

03-31-2010, 08:19 PM

I doubt that they'll get an apology anytime soon....or ever.

The Serbs should get an apology especially those families who lost loved ones whose bodies were carved up by the KLA to organ traffickers.

Hyde

03-31-2010, 08:37 PM

I dont wanna go off topic, but war crimes commited in Kosovo should be condemned aswell, I have yet to hear an apology from a Serbian leader. Some may say Prishtina should do aswell, and I agree, but since Serbia is the regional leader, a leader needs to take the lead. I know it would mean alot to ppl in Kosovo and propably ease some tense.

While we're at it, Turkey should apologise to the Kurdish people for the deaths during the Kurdish Insurgency, or England to the North-Irish for the deaths during the IRA terror... :roll:

Please, just don't try to mix your Kosovo stuff into a totally unrelated and different case which has no similarities at all, in the hope that some Srebrenica sympathy swaps over or that people who don't know about the issue get the impression that it's the same or a similar thing, which it was not, and sympathize with you. Seriously, don't reply to this as that would lead to more off-topic, just leave it and everything's alright.

Paya

03-31-2010, 08:56 PM

This will just embolden the other sides in their victimhood complex I am afraid.
Yes it will. In fact, they will pounce at the chance to slam this declaration in our collective faces whenever the question of their own crimes is raised.

That doesn't mean, however, that this wasn't the right thing to do.

The only thing I absolutely reject and abhore is the pathetic slogan that someone commited those crimes in "our" name. Unless someone can provide me with a signed statement that I empower person X to off a civilian in Bosnia or anywhere else on my behalf, noone was ****ing doing it in my name.

BW2

04-01-2010, 12:31 AM

I committed no crime therefore I apologize for nothing.

V.I.D.

04-01-2010, 01:01 AM

And theres the problem, they wont. Simple as that. They have no pressure on them to do so. Croatias already on the way to the EU and its in NATO, like i said, theres a reason only the pro west/EU parties voted in favour of this, because the EU officials demanded this privately. My problem isnt with the apology, my problem is the motive behind it, and the EU using membership to control Serbia like some battered wife that has nowhere else to go.

You're onto something here. There are no indications whatsoever that any other warring parties (Bosniaks, Croats, Kosovo Albanians) desire to admit doing anything wrong. However, be that as it may, this is a commendable move on Serbia's part although it will not really change a single thing for better (anti-Serb bias in world media, for example).

They're pretty much pissed. They see this is as betrayal by Serbia and their leaders have stated this. That it doesnt fit RS or Serb interests. At least thats what Bosnian Serb news is reporting.

Even in Serbia itself the sentiment is strong.
As if the fact that it even happend wasn't alrady "a mark". Only admitting it is.

In reality this official apology really means nothing and won't change anyones feeling about anything because there's no sense of regret or apology in the people themsevles on the ground in Bosnia. So its nice, but reality stays the same.

And then my favorite forum member comes along one more time. Would you mind not attempting to represent ALL Serbs from RS/Bosnia, because you're not one and you don't know what 1.3-1.6 million people think. For starters, I've been disgusted by what happened in Srebrenica ever since the first reports leaked out toward the end of the war in 1995. It's annoying to go through this politically-laden discussion whether it was "genocide" or "massacre". It makes no difference if 2000 died fighting the Serbian forces and the rest was massacred or other way around, it is enough to see the video of those "Scorpions" lowlifes executing kids to make one's blood boil. It also absolutely makes no difference to me what you think about it with your pre-programmed comments, but there always was and always will be a majority of decent folk disgusted or ashamed (personal preference) by such acts, and yes, even among those evil RS Serbs.

Bathinus

04-01-2010, 03:02 AM

Dude it's the Guardian with their usual bias.

Was Srebrenica a massacre.......................yes.
Was Srebrenica genocide...........................no.

Rwanda was genocide.

Sorry, it's officialy genocide, International courts said so, UN said so. In truth Srebrenica was just one in a string of massacres that made up the whole genocide. When you go from place to place, and slaughter thousands of civilians in each place because of their ethnicity or religion, it's hard to argue you're not commiting genocide. Might wonna look at what Karadzic is charged with.

Only difference between Bosnia and Rwanda are numbers. Intent and motivation was the same.

Stefan850

04-01-2010, 03:08 AM

In reality this official apology really means nothing and won't change anyones feeling about anything because there's no sense of regret or apology in the people themsevles on the ground in Bosnia. So its nice, but reality stays the same.

.

Bathinus what did you and your people, your state do to ease the relationships etc?
This cant possible not be a positive thing, what Serbia did yesterday.

G-AWZT

04-01-2010, 03:10 AM

Sorry, it's officialy genocide, International courts said so, UN said so. In truth Srebrenica was just one in a string of massacres that made up the whole genocide. Might wonna look at hat Karadzic is charged with.

Only difference between Bosnia and Rwanda are numbers. Intent and motivation was the same.

The courts are/were biased. Using the word "genocide" would mean that all of NATOs one sided action was justified when it was not.
To believe the courts definition, then the Muslims were guilty of "genocide" against the Serbs since their intent was to push out i.e. cleanse, murder, rape Serbs from villages.

Rwanda was genocide, nearly 8,000 Tutsis died every day for 80 days. A clear systematic organized rampage on a scale not seen since WWII was enacted. In Bosnia massacres of villagers, townspeople and POWs occurred. There is a huge massive difference. Just because the courts say it's so doesn't mean a thing considering they're covering for West Europes failures and biased actions against one side in a civil war.

Bathinus

04-01-2010, 03:11 AM

You're onto something here. There are no indications whatsoever that any other warring parties (Bosniaks, Croats, Kosovo Albanians) desire to admit doing anything wrong. However, be that as it may, this is a commendable move on Serbia's part although it will not really change a single thing for better (anti-Serb bias in world media, for example).

And then my favorite forum member comes along one more time. Would you mind not attempting to represent ALL Serbs from RS/Bosnia, because you're not one and you don't know what 1.3-1.6 million people think. For starters, I've been disgusted by what happened in Srebrenica ever since the first reports leaked out toward the end of the war in 1995. It's annoying to go through this politically-laden discussion whether it was "genocide" or "massacre". It makes no difference if 2000 died fighting the Serbian forces and the rest was massacred or other way around, it is enough to see the video of those "Scorpions" lowlifes executing kids to make one's blood boil. It also absolutely makes no difference to me what you think about it with your pre-programmed comments, but there always was and always will be a majority of decent folk disgusted or ashamed (personal preference) by such acts, and yes, even among those evil RS Serbs.

Stop being so dramatic all the time. Nobody said anything about evil Serbs or anything else. Just that this resolution is nowhere near supported by Bosnian Serbs, and Srebrenica is daily either denied or excused in some way. The first clue to their general feeling that is that in Bosnia, the actual country where the massacre happend, we cant even pass the resolution that all of Europe did. Why? Because RS won't allow it. They litteraly won't allow there to be a day for it. So yea, I know how the majority feel about the resolution, that is obvious.

Bathinus

04-01-2010, 03:13 AM

The courts are/were biased. Using the word "genocide" would mean that all of NATOs one sided action was justified when it was not.
To believe the courts definition, then the Muslims were guilty of "genocide" against the Serbs since their intent was to push out i.e. cleanse, murder, rape Serbs from villages.

Rwanda was genocide, nearly 8,000 Tutsis died every day for 80 days. A clear systematic organized rampage on a scale not seen since WWII was enacted. In Bosnia massacres of villagers, townspeople and POWs occurred. There is a huge massive difference. Just because the courts say it's so doesn't mean a thing considering they're covering for West Europes failures and biased actions against one side in a civil war.

Well of course you're free to believe that (about the courts), but it doesn't change facts. It's officialy ruled as genocide. By two international courts, and the UN. I guess you can believe they all hate Serbs if you want, but again, it doesn't change what is. No amount of protest will help.

Also, I fail to see why the difference is even important to you personaly. You admit 8,000 were massacred. Whatever you wonna call it, it's bad either way.

Telmar

04-01-2010, 09:00 AM

...........
In reality this official apology really means nothing and won't change anyones feeling about anything because there's no sense of regret or apology in the people themsevles on the ground in Bosnia. So its nice, but reality stays the same.
..........

You have to start somewhere.

The situation on the ground as you say may remain complicated (and not because only of Serbs...) but Serbia as a nation has demonstrated it has the self confidence, the maturity, and the courage to accept officially its share of responsibility without waiting for the others to do so.

It´s a first step. Now Serbia can take a look back to see if the other involved communities follow its leadership.

Gentius

04-01-2010, 09:42 AM

While we're at it, Turkey should apologise to the Kurdish people for the deaths during the Kurdish Insurgency, or England to the North-Irish for the deaths during the IRA terror... :roll:

Please, just don't try to mix your Kosovo stuff into a totally unrelated and different case which has no similarities at all, in the hope that some Srebrenica sympathy swaps over or that people who don't know about the issue get the impression that it's the same or a similar thing, which it was not, and sympathize with you. Seriously, don't reply to this as that would lead to more off-topic, just leave it and everything's alright.

Unrelated, seriously how dumb are you? Orders came from the same capital. Until Serbia face her past, nothing will change.

Stefan850

04-01-2010, 09:56 AM

Unrelated, seriously how dumb are you? Orders came from the same capital. Until Serbia face her past, nothing will change.

Orders came from the same capital? That's the magic link? And incorrect one anyway.

And when you say "nothing" what do you have in mind exactly?

And the funny thing is Gentius, if you think about it, the world, EU, US or whoever else is paying attention to how Albanians act to Serbs, what they say, what they do to make things go easier between us etc not the other way around. Western world is pushing us to recognize Kosovo but no one is saying anything, how we need to apologize or in any possible way be humbled or whatever in relationships with albanians from Kosovo.

Of course even if they demanded we wouldn't but still, just trying to say/point out how unrelated to anything is what your trying to say in this thread. And off topic by the way.

Hyde

04-01-2010, 10:30 AM

Unrelated, seriously how dumb are you? Orders came from the same capital. Until Serbia face her past, nothing will change.

It has been explained to you that your intentions were apparent and you were asked to drop your attempts. Since you couldn't acknowledge that you weren't succesfull but just had to dig yourself even deeper in your nonsense, you have been reported.

Good day.

Gentius

04-01-2010, 10:35 AM

Orders came from the same capital? That's the magic link? And incorrect one anyway.

And when you say "nothing" what do you have in mind exactly?

And the funny thing is Gentius, if you think about it, the world, EU, US or whoever else is paying attention to how Albanians act to Serbs, what they say, what they do to make things go easier between us etc not the other way around. Western world is pushing us to recognize Kosovo but no one is saying anything, how we need to apologize or in any possible way be humbled or whatever in relationships with albanians from Kosovo.

Of course even if they demanded we wouldn't but still, just trying to say/point out how unrelated to anything is what your trying to say in this thread. And off topic by the way.

Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo have always look to Belgrade, that has been their capital, especially under the war, I think you too can agree on that part. Why the west isnt paying much attention to what Serbs say or do against Albanians is becuase the current Government behind closed doors tell the west, if we dont act this way, the radical/nationalist parties will win votes.

An outsider may not know how things work in the Balkans, but please dont confuse me with them.

Stefan850

04-01-2010, 10:48 AM

Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo have always look to Belgrade, that has been their capital, especially under the war, I think you too can agree on that part. Why the west isnt paying much attention to what Serbs say or do against Albanians is becuase the current Government behind closed doors tell the west, if we dont act this way, the radical/nationalist parties will win votes.

An outsider may not know how things work in the Balkans, but please dont confuse me with them.

About Serbs in Croatia looking up to Belgrade and how that connects Srebrenica and Kosovo (or how it doesn't) is a long story for some other time and thread.

And I know that there's an popular opinion in Kosovo that Albanians didn't get enough and made a lot of compromises with Ahtisari plan and all that but my oppinion, based on western articles, news reports etc, especially from EU is that Albanians got a lot. And that is the reason why (again this is my opinion based on dozens of different things) west is looking at the Albanians and how they act and not Serbs.

But whatever the reason for that may be, you said how Serbs should apologize to "Kosovo". No one in Serbia, including me is thinking about it, how we should or need to do anything of that kind, neither does anyone relevant in the world (as far as I know). Every bastard that did any kind of crime against Albanians should be in jail, besides being a monster he didn't do us, Serbs, any favors, which is why I'm pissed with people defending them. Saying outloud, calling every crime a crime is always a good thing but anything like this, what we did concerning Srebrenica to do for some reason concerning Kosovo? That will never happen and there is no need for it to happen, either moral or legal or to gain something.

edit:

ps: I apologize for going way of topic. I'll stop.

Dukagjin

04-01-2010, 11:11 AM

But whatever the reason for that may be, you said how Serbs should apologize to "Kosovo". No one in Serbia, including me is thinking about it, how we should or need to do anything of that kind, neither does anyone relevant in the world (as far as I know). Every bastard that did any kind of crime against Albanians should be in jail, besides being a monster he didn't do us, Serbs, any favors, which is why I'm pissed with people defending them. Saying outloud, calling every crime a crime is always a good thing but anything like this, what we did concerning Srebrenica to do for some reason concerning Kosovo? That will never happen and there is no need for it to happen, either moral or legal or to gain something.

edit:

ps: I apologize for going way of topic. I'll stop.

my friend we are not talkin about some little bastards but about a former head of a state and his whole government who are responsible for mass killing , terror and deportation of hundred thousands of kosovar civilians . thats the big big difference cause all this sh*t happens in the name of the serbian state if u understand what i mean .

RWR

04-01-2010, 11:13 AM

- There were no Yugoslav troops in Bosnia, and there were no Yugoslav troops involved in Srebrenica. It was Mladic's VRS.

Yeah, sure.

Witness says Yugoslav troops could opt out of Sarajevo battle.

By Velma Saric in Sarajevo (TU No. 639, 19-Mar-10)

A defence witness told the Hague tribunal trial of former Yugoslav army, VJ, chief Momcilo Perisic this week that members of the 72 Special Brigade were free to decide whether to take part in fighting on the frontlines around Sarajevo in December 1993.

Zlatko Danilović, a former member of the 72 Special Brigade of the VJ, was giving evidence for the first time in the trial of Perisic, former chief of general staff of the VJ, who has pleaded not guilty at the Hague tribunal to 13 charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in Bosnia and Croatia.

These include aiding and abetting the 43-month siege of Sarajevo and the massacre of some 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995.

Perisic's authority, the indictment states, allowed the general to implement decisions of the VJ general staff and its subordinate units, as well as to transfer VJ personnel to the Bosnian Serb army, VRS, and the Serbian Krajina army, SVK, for temporary assignments or indefinite periods.

His indictment alleges that Perisic provided financial, logistical and personnel support to Serb forces in both Croatia and Bosnia between 1991 and 1995, by personally establishing two personnel centres within the VJ to covertly deploy officers to those two breakaway republics and pay their salaries.

At the beginning of his statement, Danilovic confirmed that he had joined the 72 Special Brigade on January 4, 1993, and that he ended his service on October 31 of the following year.

He said he was stationed with his unit at Avala, near Belgrade, and had not once seen nor heard from his colleagues or superiors that General Perisic had come to visit that unit.

Danilovic then said that some 50 soldiers of the 72 Special Brigade were deployed in the municipality of Vogosca near Sarajevo.

According to the indictment, Perisic aided and abetted crimes including unlawful killings, inhumane acts and attacks against the civilian population of Sarajevo, knowing that the aid in logistics and personnel which he supplied would be used in the commission of these crimes.

The indictment states that Perisic had used his authority to deploy VJ unit members as support to the VRS in its siege of Sarajevo during the "Pancir-2" operation from December 1993 to February 1994.

"We were told that anyone who felt incapable or for any other reason couldn't go, didn't have to go and would not bear any consequences. All those who wanted, came along," the witness said.

"We arrived in Vogosca in late December and we were left to settle in a hotel. I don't know what its name was but I know it was in Vogosca and we stayed there for ten days.

“During that time we had neither military activity [against the Bosnian army, ARBiH] nor contact with VRS members.”

The witness said the 72 Special Brigade were involved in action against the ARBiH on December 27 which last two hours. He said his unit suffered casualties – six dead and 10 injured.

The task of the brigade was, according to Danilovic, to occupy the Betanija medical centre in Vogosca, which was under the ARBiH control, as well as the bunkers and trenches around it.

"My group was charged with taking the bunkers and ditches and another one with entering the building. We did our task, yet the other group faced strong resistance. They were let into the building and then attacked with hand grenades. After two hours of fighting we managed to get out of the site, but we did not succeed in taking our dead with us," he said.

The witness said that members of the brigade stayed in the Sarajevo area for two further days and then went back to Serbia. The bodies of the six killed were subsequently returned after 10 or 15 days to Serbia and buried there.

Danilovic said he kept up regular contact with colleagues from his former unit in Serbia, "Every year on December 27, we pay our respects to the killed in the presence of all members of the unit, both present and past."

In cross-examination, the prosecutor, Evangelos Thomas, asked questions related to the way Danilovic's service was ended. The prosecution says he was discharged from the unit in October 1994 on grounds of desertion, whereas the witness said he had left the unit "by agreement with the commander", and that at the time he had received an offer of a job outside the military.

Judge Michèle Picard asked the witness whether VJ soldiers could decide just like that whether they would take part in an action or not, or whether they had to follow their superiors' commands, to which the witness answered, "In this case, the soldiers had the right of choice."

Perisic surrendered to the Hague tribunal on March 7, 2005 and the trial began on October 2, 2008.

creativeUsername

04-01-2010, 11:17 AM

Bringing up Kosovo in a thread about serbias apology regarding Srebrinica can be considered thread derailment, and/or flamebait for other Serbian members.

Gentius

04-01-2010, 11:22 AM

About Serbs in Croatia looking up to Belgrade and how that connects Srebrenica and Kosovo (or how it doesn't) is a long story for some other time and thread.

And I know that there's an popular opinion in Kosovo that Albanians didn't get enough and made a lot of compromises with Ahtisari plan and all that but my oppinion, based on western articles, news reports etc, especially from EU is that Albanians got a lot. And that is the reason why (again this is my opinion based on dozens of different things) west is looking at the Albanians and how they act and not Serbs.

But whatever the reason for that may be, you said how Serbs should apologize to "Kosovo". No one in Serbia, including me is thinking about it, how we should or need to do anything of that kind, neither does anyone relevant in the world (as far as I know). Every bastard that did any kind of crime against Albanians should be in jail, besides being a monster he didn't do us, Serbs, any favors, which is why I'm pissed with people defending them. Saying outloud, calling every crime a crime is always a good thing but anything like this, what we did concerning Srebrenica to do for some reason concerning Kosovo? That will never happen and there is no need for it to happen, either moral or legal or to gain something.

edit:

ps: I apologize for going way of topic. I'll stop.

I stated my opinion on how we may move forward and you stated yours and I respect that. I'll stop here aswell.

@Dukagjin, I dont think this is the thread to continue who's responseble, leave it there aswell.

Limanac

04-01-2010, 12:03 PM

I think that is right time to lock this tread.

Hyde

04-01-2010, 01:36 PM

Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo have always look to Belgrade

Lining up Kosovo, a part of Serbia where the regular Serbian Police and Army fought against Insurgents and therefore there is no such thing as "Serbs in Kosovo had to look to Belgrade", with Bosnia and Croatia, which are other countries and in which the Serbs in these countries fought for independence from the newly formed states and relied on support from Milosevic and had to coordinate what they do with him, is just plain wrong and obviously another one of your attempts to deliver a falsified view of history to people who don't know about the situation. And again, way off topic.

Would you, for the third time, please stop derailing this thread?
/E: Ah, I see you stopped. Finally.

Yeah, sure.

Srebrenica was in 1995.
Of course some Yugoslav troops where still in Bosnia in the beggining and first year(s) of the war. What I was correcting the Guardian "article" about, is that they where not present and did not participate in the massacre in Srebrenica.

Unless you have a source that they were, refrain from insinuating that kind of thing.

V.I.D.

04-01-2010, 01:42 PM

Stop being so dramatic all the time. Nobody said anything about evil Serbs or anything else. Just that this resolution is nowhere near supported by Bosnian Serbs, and Srebrenica is daily either denied or excused in some way. The first clue to their general feeling that is that in Bosnia, the actual country where the massacre happend, we cant even pass the resolution that all of Europe did. Why? Because RS won't allow it. They litteraly won't allow there to be a day for it. So yea, I know how the majority feel about the resolution, that is obvious.

Well, besides my pointing to the obvious, that is, that not everybody is against this resolution and that you and I don't know the number of people supporting or opposing it, perhaps we can explore why that would be. Have you ever thought that RS Serbs may not be exalted with the fact that Naser Oric (in charge of massacres of Serbian civilians around Sreberenica area and (in)directly involved in heating up the tensions there by misusing UN's "safe zone"), Ejup Ganic all the other criminals with blood on their hands are considered heroes among most Bosniaks, not to mention the little fact that they have never been to prison for such activities. It's easy to see why there would be so much disgruntlement among RS Serbs, as there seems to be no other formula but to paint them entirely black while even Bosniaks' war criminals are all angelic white.

There is no objective, factual history provided for the nations living in current Bosnia/Herzegovina, and divisions are ever stronger which leads me to believe that there could be another major conflict in the relatively near future. All people living there simply appear disoriented - it's all about pointing how the "other side" is doing worse, this is especially noticeable in Federal media. One aspect of this is this talk about Srebrenica "genocide" or "massacre". Can anyone tell me what is the real reason behind this, as I find such reasoning abhorring and mockery to the victims. Does it really matter to the victims' families? This is the same type of thinking by some self-righteous Serbs with "one million Serbs killed in Jasenovac" or Croatian attempts at minimizing the crime "there are only names of 80.000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac". Every single person that did not die in combat, but was shamefully executed deserves at least our silent respect if there's nothing else we can offer.

Afterglow

04-01-2010, 03:21 PM

Every single person that did not die in combat, but was shamefully executed deserves at least our silent respect if there's nothing else we can offer.

Amen to this.

It is the least we could all do.

Bathinus

04-01-2010, 04:00 PM

Lining up Kosovo, a part of Serbia where the regular Serbian Police and Army fought against Insurgents and therefore there is no such thing as "Serbs in Kosovo had to look to Belgrade", with Bosnia and Croatia, which are other countries and in which the Serbs in these countries fought for independence from the newly formed states and relied on support from Milosevic and had to coordinate what they do with him, is just plain wrong and obviously another one of your attempts to deliver a falsified view of history to people who don't know about the situation. And again, way off topic.

Serbia (Milosevic) directly supported Bosnian and Croatian Serbs. And when they stopped RSK imploded. Hence the "betrayal of Krajina" sentiment and even Serb made documentaries with that name. Everyone from US to NATO to Balkan factions know full well and acknolwedge Serbia's support. And then there's the thousands of soldiers from Serbia who came to fight, will full suport. Once Belgrade saw it was a lost cause, and once everyone threatened sanctions on SERBIA (ask yourself why), they quickly left the rebel serbs to their own devices more or less, and well, you see how they ended up, especialy RSK in Croatia. SANCTIONS ON SERBIA to force them to WITHDRAW THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE SERB REBELS. Serbia supported them while it suited her, and while it was easy to do so, that's the cold hard truth. It sacraficed them without a second thought when it had to. So plz don't treat us like we were born yesterday. Croatia supported Bosnian Croats in the same way. To even try to say otherwise is absolute delusion. Ever heard of the Karadjordjevo Agreement? No? Did you know Slobodan Milosevic was one of the people signing the damn peace agreement? If he a Bosnian Serb? Saying Serbia had no part in all this is again, delusional. Not to even mention all the propaganda coming out of Serbia at the time.

ICTY, theDusko Tadiccase showed a ton of evidence of Yugoslavias/Serbia's involvement. Slobodan Milosevic's own trial did the same. Maybe you should read the transcripts. Or the long list of SERBIAN politicans acused and tried for war crimes in BOSNIA.

Srebrenica was in 1995.
Of course some Yugoslav troops where still in Bosnia in the beggining and first year(s) of the war. What I was correcting the Guardian "article" about, is that they where not present and did not participate in the massacre in Srebrenica.

Unless you have a source that they were, refrain from insinuating that kind of thing.Who was the VRS made up of? Ex-Vietcong? Or ex-JNA Serbs? Where did they get the weapons? Mars? Who were the guys kidnapping Alija Izetbegovic? Martians?

Hyde

04-01-2010, 04:38 PM

Serbia (Milosevic) directly supported Bosnian and Croatian Serbs. And when they stopped RSK imploded. Hence the "betrayal of Krajina" sentiment and even Serb made documentaries with that name. Everyone from US to NATO to Balkan factions know full well and acknolwedge Serbia's support. And then there's the thousands of soldiers from Serbia who came to fight, will full suport. Once Belgrade saw it was a lost cause, and once everyone threatened sanctions on SERBIA (ask yourself why), they quickly left the rebel serbs to their own devices more or less, and well, you see how they ended up, especialy RSK in Croatia. SANCTIONS ON SERBIA to force them to WITHDRAW THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE SERB REBELS. Serbia supported them while it suited her, and while it was easy to do so, that's the cold hard truth. It sacraficed them without a second thought when it had to. So plz don't treat us like we were born yesterday. Croatia supported Bosnian Croats in the same way. To even try to say otherwise is absolute delusion. Ever heard of the Karadjordjevo Agreement? No? Did you know Slobodan Milosevic was one of the people signing the damn peace agreement? If he a Bosnian Serb? Saying Serbia had no part in all this is again, delusional. Not to even mention all the propaganda coming out of Serbia at the time.

ICTY, theDusko Tadiccase showed a ton of evidence of Yugoslavias/Serbia's involvement. Slobodan Milosevic's own trial did the same. Maybe you should read the transcripts. Or the long list of SERBIAN politicans acused and tried for war crimes in BOSNIA.

Who are you talking to???? I am seriously asking??? Seeing as your post has not the slightest thing to do with my post you quoted, did you even read my post or do you just randomly quote somebody to deliver your rants???

Apart from the fact that you are continuing the off-topic craze and rant on with your complexes in high-tension mode, trying to deliver as much of your pro-Bosnian-Muslim point of view as possible in one post, you should really learn to read the posts which you quote:
Your whole post is senseless as it is not contradicting on anything that I said but just repeats what I already wrote, you do realize that?

See, this is what I wrote and what you're repeating (with an ill-placed and obivously unneeded faux-lecture):
"relied on support from Milosevic and had to coordinate what they do with him"

Just except that my post was descriptive, neutral and non-judgemental, while you're trying to squeeze in as much of a pro-Bosnian Muslims, "evil Serbs aggressors" sentiment as possible.

Who was the VRS made up of? Ex-Vietcong? Or ex-JNA Serbs? Where did they get the weapons? Mars? Who were the guys kidnapping Alija Izetbegovic? Martians?It's all in my post, you just have to read it.

Who formed and equipped the VRS in 1992 and was still in Bosnia in the early stages of the war doesn't make a damn difference to the fact that the Yugoslav army was not present and did not participate in the massacre in Srebrenica in 1995. You guys should really stop trying to insinuate that.
Are you immune to logic and historic facts?

Gentius

04-01-2010, 07:21 PM

Hyde

04-01-2010, 08:01 PM

Your world of make-believe rarely complies with reality, so I'm not surprised you can't recognize the reality.

It sure is, that's what gives me a positive feeling about the future. It's already showing, but being trapped in that parallel world of yours you might have trouble seeing it.

Bathinus

04-01-2010, 08:06 PM

Who are you talking to???? I am seriously asking??? Seeing as your post has not the slightest thing to do with my post you quoted, did you even read my post or do you just randomly quote somebody to deliver your rants???

Apart from the fact that you are continuing the off-topic craze and rant on with your complexes in high-tension mode, trying to deliver as much of your pro-Bosnian-Muslim point of view as possible in one post, you should really learn to read the posts which you quote:
Your whole post is senseless as it is not contradicting on anything that I said but just repeats what I already wrote, you do realize that?

See, this is what I wrote and what you're repeating (with an ill-placed and obivously unneeded faux-lecture):
"relied on support from Milosevic and had to coordinate what they do with him"

Just except that my post was descriptive, neutral and non-judgemental, while you're trying to squeeze in as much of a pro-Bosnian Muslims, "evil Serbs aggressors" sentiment as possible.

It's all in my post, you just have to read it.

Who formed and equipped the VRS in 1992 and was still in Bosnia in the early stages of the war doesn't make a damn difference to the fact that the Yugoslav army was not present and did not participate in the massacre in Srebrenica in 1995. You guys should really stop trying to insinuate that.
Are you immune to logic and historic facts?

The post I quoted sounded like it was denying Serbia's involvement not saying the opposite. If not, then my mistake, and your horrible wording.

As for the rest, blaaaaaah blaah, muslim this muslim that, MUSLIMSSSSSSS blaaaaaah. We've heard it before.

You must've had a real good view of the Bosnian and Kosovo war from Germany eh? I mean, you're such an expert on both, look at you putting me and Gentius in our place.

The Srebrenica apology is empty and meaningless, and won't change a thing. And this thread is a good example why and how. The state can issue a 100 apologies but what matters is the relations of the people. And so far I don't see people like you as anything else but an enemy. That won't change, cuz it's obvious to me how you feel and what your agenda is.

G-AWZT

04-01-2010, 08:18 PM

The Srebrenica apology is empty and meaningless, .

Sorry you think so. Get over it and let's move along.

Hyde

04-01-2010, 08:27 PM

As for the rest, blaaaaaah blaah, muslim this muslim that, MUSLIMSSSSSSS blaaaaaah. We've heard it before.

I am just naming what point of view you're presenting, and you just used the word more often than I did in my post, where it was coupled with Bosnian for the sole purpose of specifying the ethnicity.

You must've had a real good view of the Bosnian and Kosovo war from Germany eh? I mean, you're such an expert on both, look at you putting me and Gentius in our place.

Some things look a lot clearer when viewed from a distance. Also, being personally involved just obscures the vision.

Sooo, are you guys done loading the thread of positive news from Serbia with as much negative things you can find as possible, or do you need a few more posts?

Sousuke

04-01-2010, 09:13 PM

The Balka....i mean Bathinus (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../member.php?75060-Bathinus) needs a few more posts, hell, how is he ever gonna catch up to his last account?

Anyway, you are reported my blaaah blaaahhh Muslim blaahhh friend for hijacking and bs-ing this thread. Have a nice day.

Stefan850

04-02-2010, 06:00 AM

Intl. rep on Srebrenica declaration 2 April 2010 | 10:04 | Source: Večernje novosti SARAJEVO -- By adopting the Srebrenica declaration, Serbia has shown its "European face", says High International Representative in Bosnia Valentin Inzko.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2010/04/9286342694bb5a56232a12887110533_MidCol.jpgValentin Inzko (Tanjug, file)

"The adoption of this document has a key importance for the process of reconciliation in the whole region. This is a very important step for Serbia, a hard one, but necessary," he was quoted as saying by Belgrade's Večernje Novosti daily.

Inzko went on to say he would not invite parliaments in Bosnia and Croatia to adopt their own resolutions condemning crimes committed against Serbs.

However, he said he would "welcome" such documents if they were to be passed.

"I do not agree with the stances in Banja Luka (RS) that the declaration means admitting to the collective guilt of the Serb nation. Some see this declaration a as a blow, but I believe that the only ones to receive a blow will be those who deny these events," Inzko continued.

According to him, President Boris Tadić's messages and statements are "always constructive and fair".

"I respect the effort he made for a declaration like this to be made," said Inzko.

Atlantic Friend

04-02-2010, 06:34 AM

And theres the problem, they wont. Simple as that. They have no pressure on them to do so.

Why should it be a problem? Should every country wait for all the others to face their past before it faces its own? That wouldn't lead us anywhere fast. Serbia decided to take the lead, perhaps because it felt it had to be the first, perhaps because it felt it just didn't matter whop spoke first, and it's not making the country sound or look any smaller.

Croatias already on the way to the EU

So is Serbia, if Serbia so desires.

and its in NATO

So could be Serbia, if Serbia so desired.

, like i said, theres a reason only the pro west/EU parties voted in favour of this, because the EU officials demanded this privately.

Rather, it's because in every country there'll be parties/groups who'll want to stay put, and some who'll want to move forward. I'm sure the EU officials are delighted, and that some parties correctly think it will make things easier with the EU, but so what? All the nations who have faced the dark pages of their history have found out it helped - is that so terrible if you also benefit from doing the right thing?

My problem isnt with the apology, my problem is the motive behind it, and the EU using membership to control Serbia like some battered wife that has nowhere else to go.

Honestly, I think the EU has more pressing issues on its collective mind than "controlling" Serbia into issuing an apology. This move was Serbs' to make, and a lot of people are glad they did it.

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 09:30 AM

Serbia is not responsible for what happened in Srebrenica, that's something we all have to keep in mind.

Atlantic Friend

04-02-2010, 09:33 AM

Serbia is not responsible for what happened in Srebrenica, that's something we all have to keep in mind.

You mean, because it wasn't Serbian soldiers but rather the self-proclaimed Serbian Republic of Bosnia?

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 09:41 AM

Unrelated, seriously how dumb are you? Orders came from the same capital. Until Serbia face her past, nothing will change.

LOL

Serbia's past is pretty clean compared to our albanians, muslims and croatian neighbors.... Despite that crimes were comitted by serbs during the last wars, we're still far from their historical performances :)

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 09:44 AM

You mean, because it wasn't Serbian soldiers but rather the self-proclaimed Serbian Republic of Bosnia?

I'm just saying what the ICJ already said.

Atlantic Friend

04-02-2010, 09:50 AM

I'm just saying what the ICJ already said.

Er, okay, but that means you're saying what? That there is a legal difference between the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Serbia itself? Or did you mean something else?

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 10:00 AM

Er, okay, but that means you're saying what? That there is a legal difference between the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Serbia itself? Or did you mean something else?

There were no yugoslav troops or commanders in this operation (at this time serbia was still called yugoslavia) as there were no yugoslav troops involved in the rest of the bosnia war (exept during the first moments in 1992).

The bosnian serb troops in srebrenica acted under local command (VRS). Yugoslav army was not involved at any moment.

Thats what even ICJ concluded. It cannot be more clear.

That's funny to see how the international community denies the right to self determination of Republika Srpska (while it was ok for "Kosovo") but at the same time, when it's about to blame the serbs for something, they're damn good for designate RS and Serbia as a same one nation with common decisions and responsabilities. :D

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 10:01 AM

....................

Atlantic Friend

04-02-2010, 10:16 AM

There were no yugoslav troops or commanders in this operation (at this time serbia was still called yugoslavia) as there were no yugoslav troops involved in the rest of the bosnia war (exept during the first moments in 1992).

The bosnian serb troops in srebrenica acted under local command (VRS). Yugoslav army was not involved at any moment.

Thats what even ICJ statued. It couldn't be more clear.

Yes, it was just the VRS and some paramilitaries, if I remember correctly. There are probably very interesting books about the exact relations that existed between Karadzic's autonomous government and Milosevic's. That must have been quite complex indeed.

That's also why I find it commendable that Serbia feels it needs to talk about the things that were done in its name, broadly speaking.

Thats funny to see how the international community denies the right to self determination of Republika Srpska (while it was ok for "Kosovo") but at the same time, when it's about to blame the serbs for something, they're damn good to point RS and Serbia as a same one entity with common decisions and responsabilities. :D

I don't remember the Republika Srpska to be presented as the same entity as Serbia actually. I've never seen them presented as one and the same in the media back in the bad old days when a good third of the TV news was about the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia. They always were presented as "The Serbs of Bosnia", "the self-proclaimed Serbian Republic of Bosnia" and suchlikes. All references to Serbs were an indication of ethnicity, not of nationality. Perhaps other media were less precise about it, but the ones I had access to and I remember used the correct denomination.

Sumadinac

04-02-2010, 10:30 AM

Btw, Serbia is not guilty for what happened in Srebrenica. That's the main point we should keep in mind. It's not as if Turkey would recognize the Armenian Genocide or France would apology for the hundreds of thousands Algerian civilians killed in the Algerian war.

Bathinus

04-02-2010, 10:46 PM

Serbia is not responsible for what happened in Srebrenica, that's something we all have to keep in mind.

Serbia is responsible in several ways.

It was the center of all the radical Serbian nationalism of the 80's and 90's. The Serbian media played a HUGE role. Serbia then supported the Bosnian Serbs fully for almost the whole war. It supplied them. All the big political names of the time supported them. Your president supported vocally and openly. He clearly said "all Serbs in one state". Untill pressure was put on him by the West to STOP. Maybe you forgot that little detail. Tons of Serbian citizens and paramilitaries came to fight.

So yes Serbia has a part in the war, and in Srebrenica. They could've openly done ALOT to stop alot of bloodshed. They could've not supported them at all when they saw the very first massacres in Visegrad and Prijedor and other places.

You can argue about the extent of the involvement, but stop acting like it's some shocking claim to say Serbia played a role.

The ICTY clearly stated many times orders came from Belgrade. Funding and assistance. Guys like Seselj have admitted all this.

There were no yugoslav troops or commanders in this operation (at this time serbia was still called yugoslavia) as there were no yugoslav troops involved in the rest of the bosnia war (exept during the first moments in 1992).

The bosnian serb troops in srebrenica acted under local command (VRS). Yugoslav army was not involved at any moment.

And the guys doing the actual killing (members of Scoprions) just happend to be from Serbia.....but thats not important of course :roll:

"The purpose of this joint criminal enterprise was the permanent forcible removal, through the commission of crimes in violation of Articles 3 and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal, of a majority of the Croat, Muslim and other non-Serb populations from approximately one-third of the territory of the Republic of Croatia ('Croatia'), and large parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina" and alleged that the following individuals and groups were involved in a joint criminal enterprise:

Slobodan MILOSEVIC, General Veljko KADIJEVIC, General Blagoje ADZIC, Colonel Ratko MLADIC, Jovica STANISIC, Franko SIMATOVIC also known as "Frenki", Radovan STOJICIC, also known as "Badza", Milan MARTIC, Goran HADZIC, Radovan KARADZIC, Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC, Zeljko RAZNATOVIC, also known as "Arkan", and other members of the Yugoslav People's Army ("JNA"), later the Yugoslav Army ("VJ"), the newly-formed Serb Territorial Defence ("TO") of Croatia and of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina ("SVK") and the army of the Republika Srpska ("VRS"), and the TOs of Serbia and of Montenegro, local Serb, Republic of Serbia and Republika Srpska police forces ("MUP forces"), including the State Security/Drzavna bezbednost/("DB") Branch of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia, and Serb special police forces of the SAO Krajina and the RSK commonly referred to as "Martic's Police", Marticevci", "SAO Krajina Police" or "SAO Krajina Milicija" (hereinafter "Martic's Police") and members of Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian and Croatian Serb paramilitary forces and volunteer units including "Chetniks", or "Seseljevci" (translated into English as "Seselj’s men") (collectively, "Serb forces"), and other political figures from the (S)FRY, the Republic of Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro and the Bosnian and Croatian Serb leadership.
—ICTY Prosecutor's Vojislav Seselj indictment

LOL

Serbia's past is pretty clean compared to our albanians, muslims and croatian neighbors.... Despite that crimes were comitted by serbs during the last wars, we're still far from their historical performances :)

You're joking right? First you deny your own dirt, then you throw mud on the rest of us. That last sentance is PURE FLAMEBAIT. It doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with this topic o the 90's conflicts. And on top of that it's a lie.

G-AWZT

04-02-2010, 11:14 PM

Yeah and there was no "underground" muslim awakening during the Tito years either. :roll: After '89 it surfaced.

Bath stop trying to play the victim, it's getting tiresome.

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 07:46 AM

Serbia is responsible in several ways.

It was the center of all the radical Serbian nationalism of the 80's and 90's. The Serbian media played a HUGE role. Serbia then supported the Bosnian Serbs fully for almost the whole war. It supplied them. All the big political names of the time supported them. Your president supported vocally and openly. He clearly said "all Serbs in one state".

Really? and what did you expected seriously? Of course there was a solidarity from serbia and serbs with the brothers from bosnia! that's more than normal, they are brothers. But you mix political and ideological support and concrete facts, which are, that the yugoslav gouvernement and army were not at any moment involved in srebrenica massacre. Stop the suppositions and bring facts. The fact that their was a support to RS from serbia is like saying that the sky is blue, but it is not because serbia (yugoslavia) was helping the RS that they approved and backed what happened in Srebrenica, in any case.

You can argue about the extent of the involvement, but stop acting like it's some shocking claim to say Serbia played a role.

Serbia indeed played a role in bosnia war. That does not mean being guilty about srebrenica.

The ICTY clearly stated many times orders came from Belgrade. Funding and assistance. Guys like Seselj have admitted all this. Indeed, military assistance, as croats helped their brothers in bosnia. But again, it has nothing to do with Srebrenica.

And the guys doing the actual killing (members of Scoprions) just happend to be from Serbia.....but thats not important of course :roll: Ok, how much serbs from serbia like these "scorpions" there were in Srebrenica? Few dozens? let's say one hundred.. They were volunteers and not members of yugo army, and anyway, I doubt that they killed only by themselves thousands of people. Their presence there was real but purely anecdotic, more than 95% of forces over there were composed of bosnian serbs, as the commandement was, so again, there isn't any yugoslav responsability in this affair, exept if you consider that supplying weapons to Bosnian Serbs was "complicity" but in this case, I am personnally proud that serbia did this moral duty when the brothers from bosnia were at war, for the rest, what they did of this help is their only risponsability.

I doubt that you would consider that croats and islamic nations are complices of massacres because serbian civilians were killed with weapons that they supplied to Abih.

You're joking right? First you deny your own dirt, then you throw mud on the rest of us. That last sentance is PURE FLAMEBAIT. It doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with this topic o the 90's conflicts. And on top of that it's a lie.
How can I deny our own dirt if we aren't risponsable? Oh and, about the "lie", ever heard of Jasenovac? Crna Legija? SS Handzar divizija? Let's see who's deny..

Paya

04-03-2010, 08:42 AM

Serbia is responsible in several ways.

It was the center of all the radical Serbian nationalism of the 80's and 90's. The Serbian media played a HUGE role. Serbia then supported the Bosnian Serbs fully for almost the whole war. It supplied them. All the big political names of the time supported them. Your president supported vocally and openly. He clearly said "all Serbs in one state". Untill pressure was put on him by the West to STOP. Maybe you forgot that little detail. Tons of Serbian citizens and paramilitaries came to fight.

So yes Serbia has a part in the war, and in Srebrenica. They could've openly done ALOT to stop alot of bloodshed. They could've not supported them at all when they saw the very first massacres in Visegrad and Prijedor and other places.

You can argue about the extent of the involvement, but stop acting like it's some shocking claim to say Serbia played a role.

The ICTY clearly stated many times orders came from Belgrade. Funding and assistance. Guys like Seselj have admitted all this.
Partly true, yet you conveniently forgot to mention the sanctions Milosevic put on the RS in '93, since they were unwilling to to accept a peace settlement that didn't grant them independence. Nothing, including humanitarian aid, could get across the Drina.

Also, forgive my bluntness, but had Serbia left the Bosnian Serbs to fend for themselves, they would have suffered the same fate as the Krajina Serbs.

And somehow I'm not so sure you would have had a problem with that. Or the vast majority of the Bosniak population, for that matter.

And the guys doing the actual killing (members of Scoprions) just happend to be from Serbia.....but thats not important of course :roll:
Am I to understand that you believe that the "Scorpions" were the only ones doing the killing? A two hundred or so strong unit?

"The purpose of this joint criminal enterprise was the permanent forcible removal, through the commission of crimes in violation of Articles 3 and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal, of a majority of the Croat, Muslim and other non-Serb populations from approximately one-third of the territory of the Republic of Croatia ('Croatia'), and large parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina" and alleged that the following individuals and groups were involved in a joint criminal enterprise:

Slobodan MILOSEVIC, General Veljko KADIJEVIC, General Blagoje ADZIC, Colonel Ratko MLADIC, Jovica STANISIC, Franko SIMATOVIC also known as "Frenki", Radovan STOJICIC, also known as "Badza", Milan MARTIC, Goran HADZIC, Radovan KARADZIC, Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC, Zeljko RAZNATOVIC, also known as "Arkan", and other members of the Yugoslav People's Army ("JNA"), later the Yugoslav Army ("VJ"), the newly-formed Serb Territorial Defence ("TO") of Croatia and of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina ("SVK") and the army of the Republika Srpska ("VRS"), and the TOs of Serbia and of Montenegro, local Serb, Republic of Serbia and Republika Srpska police forces ("MUP forces"), including the State Security/Drzavna bezbednost/("DB") Branch of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia, and Serb special police forces of the SAO Krajina and the RSK commonly referred to as "Martic's Police", Marticevci", "SAO Krajina Police" or "SAO Krajina Milicija" (hereinafter "Martic's Police") and members of Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian and Croatian Serb paramilitary forces and volunteer units including "Chetniks", or "Seseljevci" (translated into English as "Seselj’s men") (collectively, "Serb forces"), and other political figures from the (S)FRY, the Republic of Serbia, the Republic of Montenegro and the Bosnian and Croatian Serb leadership.
—ICTY Prosecutor's Vojislav Seselj indictment
You are aware that you quoted the prosecution, not the verdict, right?

Telmar

04-03-2010, 08:45 AM

Paya

04-03-2010, 08:51 AM

Anyways, whatever Bathinus says, Serbia has issued a formal apology for Srebenica and that's a big step. The best thing left to do is wait for an apology from other sides of the Yugoslav civil war as the violence against civilians was not unilateral.
That apology will never come. The greatest acts of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the armed forces of Croatia and RBiH are considered national holidays, official or unofficial. With Srebrenica and other crimes, that was never the case.

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 08:54 AM

Anyways, whatever Bathinus says, Serbia has issued a formal apology for Srebenica and that's a big step. The best thing left to do is wait for an apology from other sides of the Yugoslav civil war as the violence against civilians was not unilateral.

It's not a big step telmar, because the excuse was not done by the gvt of RS but by Serbia's one, and it will only create much anger for a government that crouches and plays the carpet for mistakes which he can not even accountable.

Do you realise that the croatian gvt made no one official excuses for the 300 000 serbs that they expulsed from their territory, and that on the other hand, the pathetic serbian gvt officially apologize for something that he isn't guilty, and that didn't even happened in its own territory!

The serbian gvt humiliated Serbia with such a decision that can only contribute to radicalise people's minds.

Telmar

04-03-2010, 08:54 AM

That apology will never come. The greatest acts of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the armed forces of Croatia and RBiH are considered national holidays, official or unofficial. With Srebrenica and other crimes, that was never the case.

Well then let Serbia continue on the road it has taken. It pays in the long run to do the right thing.

Telmar

04-03-2010, 08:58 AM

It's not a big step telmar, because the excuse was not done by the gvt of RS but by Serbia's one, and it will only create much anger for a government that crouches and plays the carpet for mistakes which he can not even accountable.

...

I'm no professional on this topic, but I fail to see a RS lasting long without the support of Serbia.

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 09:10 AM

I'm no professional on this topic, but I fail to see a RS lasting long without the support of Serbia.

Don't worry about RS, it could be very well a viable state, it is not at all a criminal entity like "Kosovo" that only survive because of the international perfusion...

Even serbia don't help RS so much, RS is doing very well by itself and it could very well be independent if its right to self-determination was not artificially denied by the international community (for obvious political reasons).

In your place, I would rather worry about the fate of the FBiH.

Telmar

04-03-2010, 09:14 AM

^^^

I meant the RS during the civil war. My mistake for not being very clear.

SATNIK

04-03-2010, 12:51 PM

That apology will never come. The greatest acts of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the armed forces of Croatia and RBiH are considered national holidays, official or unofficial. With Srebrenica and other crimes, that was never the case.

Do you know what ethnic cleansing mean,for example in Croatia there are 147 of mass graves sights of non Serbs,well documented by name and date of birth of the people mostly civilians and old people;and thera are stll 1024 missing pearsons.
Done by I dont know how to call them VRSK,JNA,TOKrajina Serbs,and there is well documented from the very start involved DB( Državna Bezbednost) and MUP Srbije not to menction paramilitarys volunteers I will call them Serbijan Army all together
Because all this formations VRS also was on the payroll from Yugoslavien or Serbijan state buget.
There are alot of proof for that i will not try to prove Yoe enithing here
So claming that Croats dont have the whright to nacional holiday is utter BS
I apologyse to all good Serbs who left, I em very sory,But members of all those formacions who was involved in crimes should stay also.
Im still looking foward for apology for Croatian War!

V.I.D.

04-03-2010, 01:21 PM

Do you know what ethnic cleansing mean,for example in Croatia there are 147 of mass graves sights of non Serbs,well documented by name and date of birth of the people mostly civilians and old people.
Done by I dont know how to call them VRSK,JNA,TO,and there is well documented from the very start involved DB( Državna Bezbednost) and MUP Srbije not to menction paramilitarys volunteers I will call them Serbijan Army all together
Because all this formations VRS also was on the payroll from Yugoslavien or Serbijan state buget.
There are alot of proof for that i will not try to prove Yoe enithing here
So claming that Croats dont have the whright to nacional holiday is utter BS
I apologyse to all good Serbs who left, I em very sory,But members of all those formacions who was involved in crimes should stay also.
Im still looking foward for apology for Croatian War!

And I am still looking forward to decipher this hieroglyphic writing.

SATNIK

04-03-2010, 01:30 PM

And I am still looking forward to decipher this hieroglyphic writing.

I em very sori for my Cowboy English,but bold part is very clear,what is the greatest ethnic cleansing done in Croatia!

Stefan850

04-03-2010, 02:05 PM

I em very sori for my Cowboy English,but bold part is very clear,what is the greatest ethnic cleansing done in Croatia!

A crime is a crime, you don't answer to allegations of one crime by talking about another one that was in your opinion greater.
Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

I can imagine that you can do that when the crimes are 100% directly connected, relevant to each other but it's hard to find those kinds of cases in Balkan wars, it's like looking for a needle in a stack of needles really.

An example of what I'm trying to say is when Croatians talk about crimes Serbs commited to them Serbs respond with "well what about Jasenovac or 300 000 people from opetaration Storm" or when Serbs talk about crimes Bosnian Muslims did they say "what about Srebrenica" and so own.
It's just a lil bit short of being an war crime apologist, if short at all.

But with that said, when you say something like "the greatest ethnic cleansing done in Croatia!" you do call for crimes against Serbs done in Croatia to be named and discussed, so try to avoid it, it's hard for me also but I do my best since I figure, it really is best to talk about one crime at the time, we can all learn a lot that way since most of us have totally different perspectives on everything that happened.

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 02:05 PM

Im still looking foward for apology for Croatian War!

I'm gonna learn you something, it was done three years ago:

http://www6.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2007&mm=06&dd=24&nav_id=252551

Bathinus

04-03-2010, 04:26 PM

How can I deny our own dirt if we aren't risponsable? Oh and, about the "lie", ever heard of Jasenovac? Crna Legija? SS Handzar divizija? Let's see who's deny..

So you really wonna take the thread there eh? Yea I've heard of those. First, they're mostly Croat Ustasa crimes, not Bosniak or Albanian, yet you threw us all in the same pot. Handzar is Bosniak and Albanian yes, but that's hardly enough to live up to the description you gave above about our "historical preformances". You litteraly made it sound like we all have hundreds of years of genocide under our belt. I wonna write more in response, to show how full of it you are, but this thread isn't about WWII or the Ottoman Empire. But just to add, yes I am sorry for any innocent civilians killed by Handzar. I myself if I was a soldier would never do it. Happy?

SATNIK

04-03-2010, 04:39 PM

Šumadinac I know that statment from Tadić OK Mesić did the same thing,that is a good start for Croatia and Serbia.

Stefan850:We need to jailed all who was doing the Crimes, Ovčara trail was a good example ,than we can finely move on,but there are still 1024 missing Croats we want to know were are they.
We did that for members of special police who did Crimes during the op.Storm and we will jail every one if your side give evidence,with is hard to find anyhow ,but we have for 600 people wich are free still, and some massacars we didnt even have no proof,jours Justice sistem should take all this cases again in trail,because we trailed them in apsence. And panish all who are guilty in all sides.That WILL BE A APOLOGY and mooving On.
Like those bastards from JNA leadership how can They shell towns city centar,city bloks then hospitals I just can understand that What was the target, masive civilians dead people WHY?

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 05:45 PM

You litteraly made it sound like we all have hundreds of years of genocide under our belt. I wonna write more in response, to show how full of it you are, but this thread isn't about WWII or the Ottoman Empire.

Thanks for remind me these sweet 500 years, how how did I ever forget that? Shame on me.

Frankly, I never knew if Muslims and Croats were pretending not to make a link between the injustices they have accumulated against us throughout history and the war of 91-95, or if they thought sincerely that 45 years after the end of WW2, we had already forgotten the genocide made against us.

If the second answer is the more plausible, then you were very naive to believe that we would let ourselves be slaughtered eternally. And like it or not, you cannot ignore the weight of the past has had a decisive role in these recent wars.

45 years are nothing compared to the history of mankind, and certainly not enough to forgot a genocide.

Sumadinac

04-03-2010, 05:55 PM

Šumadinac I know that statment from Tadić OK Mesić did the same thing,that is a good start for Croatia and Serbia.

If it was only about me, nobody would have to apologize to anyone, especially since most of these pseudo apologies are not sincere and are only due to political and economic motivations (and many foreign pressures).

To the blood that was shed, it is not necessary to provide the false compassion and hypocrisy.

I do not ask for apologies to anyone and I do not want to apologize to anyone, each one at home and god for all, i to je to.

Bathinus

04-03-2010, 06:51 PM

Thanks for remind me these sweet 500 years, how how did I ever forget that? Shame on me.

Frankly, I never knew if Muslims and Croats were pretending not to make a link between the injustices they have accumulated against us throughout history and the war of 91-95, or if they thought sincerely that 45 years after the end of WW2, we had already forgotten the genocide made against us.

If the second answer is the more plausible, then you were very naive to believe that we would let ourselves be slaughtered eternally. And like it or not, you cannot ignore the weight of the past has had a decisive role in these recent wars.

45 years are nothing compared to the history of mankind, and certainly not enough to forgot a genocide.

This only makes you look more and more like the "we were just getting revenge for some ancient bull" type of guy. The other obvious thing you're missing is that in WWII Serbs didn't just get slaughtered, they also did plenty of slaughtering themsevles. Serbs are in no way different then any group in WWII. They weren't all bad, they weren't all good.

And you don't seem to know what people were like in Yugoslav Bosnia. At all. Yes, everyone pretty much did "forget" those things. Serbs included. WWII was just history. Over and done with. Nobody cares what you were, and everyone assumed the "ustasas" and the "chetniks" were long gone and purged. At least on the surface, yes people were ignorant to it, and yes they were naive. For a time. Especialy Bosniaks. Especialy places like Sarajevo. The whole country was kind of forcebily made to 'move on'. Apperantly not enough though.

BTW, who told you to forget? Nobody. And we won't either. Not this time. But that doesn't have to be something "sinister" as you seem to make it. Overall, you're no more a victim then anyone else in the region.

So now that these old incidents are "relevant" again, should the rest of us make huge lists of all the wrongs Serbs have done to us, and then conduct modern politics and relations according to that? Cuz we can make those lists if you really want, and we can keep taking revenge on eachother till the end of time. I kind of have a feeling that's how it will be anyway.

V.I.D.

04-04-2010, 12:46 AM

I em very sori for my Cowboy English,but bold part is very clear,what is the greatest ethnic cleansing done in Croatia!

I shouldn't have used such analogy, and I apologize if I have insulted you. Perhaps you're fluent in Spanish or French and I have no clue about about them, so there's no need to mock other people for not mastering one language or another. However, what I was hinting at is that nothing is black and white like you seemed to present it (AKA "Croats good, Serbs bad").

So you really wonna take the thread there eh? Yea I've heard of those. First, they're mostly Croat Ustasa crimes, not Bosniak or Albanian, yet you threw us all in the same pot. Handzar is Bosniak and Albanian yes, but that's hardly enough to live up to the description you gave above about our "historical preformances". You litteraly made it sound like we all have hundreds of years of genocide under our belt. I wonna write more in response, to show how full of it you are, but this thread isn't about WWII or the Ottoman Empire. But just to add, yes I am sorry for any innocent civilians killed by Handzar. I myself if I was a soldier would never do it. Happy?

Well, guess what bud, as much as one half of Ustasha forces in the area of today's Bosnia/Herzegovina were made up of people today known as Bosniaks (then "Croatians of Islamic faith"), Crna Legija ("Black Legion") included. In some areas of Bosnia/Herzegovina, they practically made a majority of Ustasha forces (Gradacac, Tuzla, Bugojno, Vakuf, western & northeastern Bosnia). I am sure you knew all of this already, so it's not very nice of you to try to blame ethnic Croatians alone for all Ustasha crimes.