China's Costs of Growth

[Ordie]

Very scary photos.

Makes me think twice in ordering mutton in Beijing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2010/mar/26/beijing-rubbish-wang-jiuliang-photography

[Synthe]

And whats better?? No growth at all? I'd wonder if you told tell the same to europe, US, East asian tigers + Japan, that they were better off if their economy never grew in the past.

[Fade]

We try not to buy anything edible from China, we have no idea how much/many dioxins/heavy metals/carcinogens are present in it. I'm sure some areas are cleaner than others, but we aren't taking any chances.

[Ordie]

And whats better??

The fundamentals.
Clean water, clear skies, and safe fresh foods.

[Synthe]

The fundamentals.
Clean water, clear skies, and safe fresh foods.

Same thing that wasn't 100% avaliable when america, europe and japan+asian tigers, industrialized. And would people be better off if that never happened??

[Solvent]

Yes, cost is heavy. But can we afford the cost of not developing? What we need most is the good regulation and monitor system.

[Synthe]

Yes, cost is heavy.

I'd hope by now you already realized that this guy's reason for posting anything about china is to show nothing good about it?

[Solvent]

I'd hope by now you already realized that this guy's reason for posting anything about china is to show nothing good about it?

Come on, don't be defensive. Should I say the cost is not heavy? Take it easy and be open minded.

[Ordie]

Same thing that wasn't 100% avaliable when america, europe and japan+asian tigers, industrialized.

That is correct and there should be no excuses for China not to emulate environmental regualtion and practices.

If China is good at copying everything, why don't they start with environmental protection?

It will only make China a better place for its people and society. It may also mitigate any uprisings against the authorities over quality of life issues.

[Synthe]

That is correct and there should be no excuses for China not to emulate environmental regualtion and practices.

Care to tell us how long was it before Those areas did start to care about the environment?? And why don't i hear the same from you when its happening to other DEVELOPING countries??

[Ordie]

Care to tell us how long was it before Those areas did start to care about the environment?? And why don't i hear the same from you when its happening to other DEVELOPING countries??

About 70-80 years.
But we had done the homework for you.

Go ahead and copy and paste our environmental standards.

[Synthe]

About 70-80 years.
But we had done the homework for you.

Go ahead and copy and paste our environmental standards.

And i hoped you did your homework by telling us how many years has it been since china went back to capitalism.

[Alex G]

Ever heard of Italy? Its not like this problem is unique to china.

[Ordie]

And i hoped you did your homework by telling us how many years has it been since china went back to capitalism.

30 years of no excuses for not considering the environment as a deteremental externality of growth.

[Synthe]

30 years of no excuses for not considering the environment as a deteremental externality of growth.

It will take a long term for china to fully have high standards of living, And while you complain that china didn't give a s*it about the environment, it was the same case with those three areas until they were able to become developed.

[Solvent]

About 70-80 years.
But we had done the homework for you.

Go ahead and copy and paste our environmental standards.

Sounds to easy that you can just copy everything. For example, we have Black hawk helicopter for decades now, but we still couldn't produce one.

Environment protection is even harder to do. Without funds, technology and laws, I don't know how you can do it?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

It will take a long term for china to fully have high standards of living, And while you complain that china didn't give a s*it about the environment, it was the same case with those three areas until they were able to become developed.The thing is that China slipped into the modern industrial world more or less at the top of the bell curve all the lessons had been learned and documented elsewhere. China has been selling waste management equipment to the West for the last 5 years that I am aware of so there are hardly any excuses to be made.

[Ordie]

It will take a long term for china to fully have high standards of living, And while you complain that china didn't give a s*it about the environment, it was the same case with those three areas until they were able to become developed.

I've traveled throughout Shanxi Provence. After two days a could not breathe well.
My local guide tells me it has got worst since the Olympics as factories, and powerplants around Beijing were shutdown to improve the air quality for the games. But they exanded production in Shanxi with powerlines going to Beijing.

The locals feel they are paying the price for China's growth in terms pollution, poor health and deformed kids.

[Synthe]

I've traveled throughout Shanxi Provence. After two days a could not breathe well.
My local guide tells me it has got worst since the Olympics as factories, and powerplants around Beijing were shutdown to improve the air quality for the games. But they exanded production in Shanxi with powerlines going to Beijing.

The locals feel they are paying the price for China's growth in terms pollution, poor health and deformed kids.

And you didn't bother to look at the poverty of those in Shanxi? How is it better for stay poor then gain better incomes?

"waste management equipment to the West"

When you export something you make money, when a country uses it for itself, it doesn't gain money.

Now don't take the wrong, china needs to reduce pollution, waste, etc. But china is barely a developed country. And i'm not very supportive when somebody's reason for posting something is to show that another country sucks balls.

[dava]

The reason that the West is cleaner is mostly because they exported their pollution to developing countries including China.
Cheap labor in combination with lax environmental standards creates the lowcost bulk consumer goods the Westerners are so fond of.

China is indeed forced to choose between earning the cash or staying underdeveloped. Tough choice.
As long as there is no market for ecological services, this situation will continue. We pay the Saudi's because they happen to have oil but noone pays the Indonesians or PNG's for the ecological services they are providing to the world by maintaining huge forested area's full of biodiversity. Only then a real market price can be put on many natural products.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

"waste management equipment to the West"

When you export something you make money, when a country uses it for itself, it doesn't gain money.Your government is throwing money about like Daddy Warbucks and you have underpinned significant portions of the Western worlds banking system. Its not lack of money its about your government national and local not giving a f*ck about the environment and your personal wellbeing.

[osobnostx]

Very scary photos? You can take similar in any industrial country.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The reason that the West is cleaner is mostly because they exported their pollution to developing countries including China.
Cheap labor in combination with lax environmental standards creates the lowcost bulk consumer goods the Westerners are so fond of.The US, Canada and Europe had by the 1920's got a grasp of waste and environmental management I noticed our rivers getting cleaner in the UK while the Chinese were still undergoing the "Second Revolution" in the 1980's.

[Eventine]

That is correct and there should be no excuses for China not to emulate environmental regualtion and practices.

If China is good at copying everything, why don't they start with environmental protection?

It will only make China a better place for its people and society. It may also mitigate any uprisings against the authorities over quality of life issues.

Agreed, but what you're missing is that China's central government has tried to implement environmental regulations. See, for example, Hu Jintao's "green GDP" initiative. The problem, however, is two-fold: first, it takes time for any environmental policy to take effect. Second, there is strong resistance from regional officials/bosses, who Beijing ultimately depend on for governing the country. Why do they resist it? Simple: money.

[HellToupee]

Thing is tho on a per capita basis the Chinese still pollute less than us, we just outsource it, environment protection will come once they grow enough and their living condition concerns begin to trumpt earning more money.

Here in NZ tho needing to earn more money is starting to erode our environment standards, governments wanting to mine reservation land, recently fired a environment board when they became concerned with waterway polution from increasing dairy farm intensity which is a big part of the economy.

[junglejim]

Or be like the Philippines, ban incinerators as part of the clean air act, and have newly built powerplants lie idle doing nothing because of it. Instead of driving electricity cheaper, we now have to build a nuclear powerplant instead. Freakin hippies.

[jokuvaan]

Growth itself is not the main problem, its about corruption and max profiting. Its cheaper to bribe than have expensive filters in chimneys, its mega lot cheaper to dump toxic waste into nearby river than process it first. Greed of individuals is destroying China as they dont have democratic voting mechanism that would safeguard general public from worst cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_water_crisis

"As a result of widespread water pollution, 700 million people drink contaminated water every day."

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The thing is that China slipped into the modern industrial world more or less at the top of the bell curve all the lessons had been learned and documented elsewhere. China has been selling waste management equipment to the West for the last 5 years that I am aware of so there are hardly any excuses to be made.

Great post - my thoughts exactly. One can hardly compare them to the West, who went through development 100 years ago when nobody knew the dangers involved.

[Eventine]

Growth itself is not the main problem, its about corruption and max profiting. Its cheaper to bribe than have expensive filters in chimneys, its mega lot cheaper to dump toxic waste into nearby river than process it first. Greed of individuals is destroying China as they dont have democratic voting mechanism that would safeguard general public from worst cases.

A fair point that they tried to address via local elections, but let's be serious now - how do you implement democracy from the top-down when the bulk of your support base consists of people (read: local officials and business leaders) who stand to lose from it? Peasant rebellions in China come and go, but a powerful dynasty lasts at least a couple hundred years from sheer momentum.

[HVU]

Great post - my thoughts exactly. One can hardly compare them to the West, who went through development 100 years ago when nobody knew the dangers involved.

It takes money and time to educate and train people to operate hi-tech equipment. It also takes time to absorb the know-how, an American company may train the staff to press some buttons, but can they leave them knowing that the Chinese will be able to run and maintain the equipment? You also have to think of the cultural/tradional aspects too. Remember that many Chinese are farmers or ex-farmers. Besides, it's hard to afford hi-tech, environmentally friendly plants, which gives them incentive to take short-cuts.

China is on the right track. They are investing more and more in green and nuclear energy. E.g they have adopted the new American Westinghouse AP1000 as a standard for the inland nuclear projects. People has to realise that China today and China 30 years ago isn't the same, and certain aspects doesn't catch up with economic development. Give them time, they'll have to prioritise economic growth for now. 30 years is not much!

[Confuse]

Growth itself is not the main problem, its about corruption and max profiting. Its cheaper to bribe than have expensive filters in chimneys, its mega lot cheaper to dump toxic waste into nearby river than process it first. Greed of individuals is destroying China as they dont have democratic voting mechanism that would safeguard general public from worst cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_water_crisis

"As a result of widespread water pollution, 700 million people drink contaminated water every day."



while have the democratic option would be nice, the reality is that currently social situation in china would led to chaos and anarchy, corruption would run rampant... corruption is the MAIN problem and that transcends any type of political reforms, what china needs first is to get independent rule of law, a power higher than the communist party, it comes down to corrupt officials using the name of the party to enrich themselves and the central communist authority stuck with them like "cutting off your leg might kill the body" , but the true is if you don't cut off the diseased leg it will eventually kill the body

[Blue P]

everything comes with a cost. and we are paying this one happily. sure, a lot we can do to reduce the evironmental damage. but, the rapidly development, is most important, and the america worries. please don't tell me that you really care about the "clean water, clear skies, and safe fresh foods" of chinese, because we know you don't .

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

It takes money and time to educate and train people to operate hi-tech equipment. It also takes time to absorb the know-how, an American company may train the staff to press some buttons, but can they leave them knowing that the Chinese will be able to run and maintain the equipment? You also have to think of the cultural/tradional aspects too. Remember that many Chinese are farmers or ex-farmers. Besides, it's hard to afford hi-tech, environmentally friendly plants, which gives them incentive to take short-cuts.Things may have worked out better if they had left things in the hands of uneducated farmers at least the would have the good sense not to sh*t in the water they drink from. There is no point in putting up "they know not what they do defence" as the Chinese had been sending out graduates to Western and Japanese universities and technical schools many years before any of us on here ever thought of them as a significant manufacturing nation. Were talking basic stuff here like not dumping silicon wafer wash off (Sulfuric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide) straight into the local stream that farmers use to irrigate their fields. As for not having access to the technology that's incorrect as I have seen Chinese designed and made waste water treatment plants for small factories say about 5 years ago. China does have environmental laws its just that nobody can be arsed to enforce them or is way to busy spending their pay off for not enforcing them.

[Ordie]

Environment protection is even harder to do. Without funds, technology and laws, I don't know how you can do it?

Look to Taiwan.

They set up an Environmental Protection Agency in 1987 and has made considerable gains. Given the common development issues, language and cultures, China could benefit from Taiwan experiences and organization.

The PRC should send its folks to study and intern in Taiwan.

[Solvent]

Look to Taiwan.

They set up an Environmental Protection Agency in 1987 and has made considerable gains. Given the common development issues, language and cultures, China could benefit from Taiwan experiences and organization.

The PRC should send its folks to study and intern in Taiwan.

Taiwan is not comparable with China. It will take long time for China to reach developing lever of Taiwan in 1987.

[Ordie]

Taiwan is not comparable with China. It will take long time for China to reach developing lever of Taiwan in 1987.

It's not a question of development, but one of regulation, and enforcement thereof.
The Taiwanese have the ability to teach the Chinese.
Besides, both sides speak Mandarin and have the unique ability to reach out to many PRC public employees.

[Solvent]

It's not a question of development, but one of regulation, and enforcement thereof.
The Taiwanese have the ability to teach the Chinese.
Besides, both sides speak Mandarin and have the unique ability to reach out to many PRC public employees.

Of course, it has everything to with development. Without development, where can you get the money and luxury to go green?

Taiwan can give us examples and lessons in the road of growth. It teaches us which way we should not go in order to avoid same mistakes.

Speaking same language doesn't save you from failure. There are many countries speaking English, not every one is successful.

[Ordie]

Of course, it has everything to with development. Without development, where can you get the money and luxury to go green?

Taiwan can give us examples and lessons in the road of growth. It teaches us which way we should not go in order to avoid same mistakes.

Speaking same language doesn't save you from failure. There are many countries speaking English, not every one is successful.

Who is the largest import / export / investment partner in China?

Taiwan.

The PRC could force Taiwanese industries to meet or exceed the environmental standards from Taiwan.

[Solvent]

Who is the largest import / export / investment partner in China?

Taiwan.

The PRC could force Taiwanese industries to meet or exceed the environmental standards from Taiwan.

I doubt the gov has much interest to impose such standards at this point. Sad, I know.

[Ordie]

I doubt the gov has much interest to impose such standards at this point. Sad, I know.

It's a lost opportunity.

[junglejim]

It's not a question of development, but one of regulation, and enforcement thereof.
The Taiwanese have the ability to teach the Chinese.
Besides, both sides speak Mandarin and have the unique ability to reach out to many PRC public employees.

I disagree, it is about development. When a person is poor and hungry, talking about environmental issue to that person means nothing to them. Maslow's Hierarchy of needs there, Ordie. As an example, in one town here in the Philippines, they used to hunt down the whale sharks that breed in the area, the only way to stop them was for the government to show them that they actually make more money if they turn this to a tourist attraction rather than fast food.

Now imagine trying to change the mindset in China, say in one town wherein a factory is a pollutant, but the households depend on it for money and sustenance. Unless you have another alternative, telling them to shut it down just for regulations will get you a riot. Westerners coming in for a visit an talking like they are Holier Than Thou, without knowing the dynamics of the society they are criticizing will definitely not help with China's situation.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Edit wrong thread.

[Solvent]

It's a lost opportunity.

No, when you are going to create millions of jobs for people, you will not feel same.

[Ordie]

No, when you are going to create millions of jobs for people, you will not feel same.

What is a job worth, when you don't have access to clean water or air?

[Alex G]

What is a job worth, when you don't have access to clean water or air?

The same as clean water and air if you dont have a job.

[Ordie]

The same as clean water and air if you dont have a job.

Without clean water or sewage, you have outbreaks of cholera, dysentery and e coli.

How can you be productive in such condition?

[junglejim]

It hasn't slowed down the Chinese, yet.

[Ordie]

It hasn't slowed down the Chinese, yet.

If it goes unchecked, it will slow China.

[junglejim]

Well, that is up to them. Right now, that is not their priority. Their priority is food on their tables not utopia, but they will get there of course. Once enough people are out of poverty, they will go on fixing about their environment.

[Ordie]

Their priority is food on their tables not utopia.

Without clean water, you cannot have safe food to eat.

And that is a major threat to the Communists.

[Blue P]

If it goes unchecked, it will slow China.

well, since that's what you ultimately want. you can hope for it. :D

[Alex G]

http://www.n24.de/media/import/dpainfoline/dpainfoline_20081118_17/Neapel_19586216originallarge-4-3-800-367-0-3300-2200.jpg
http://wdrblog.de/glossenblog/img/neapel_g.jpg
http://www.nzz.ch/images/neapel_1.2660530.1243955052.jpg
http://p3.focus.de/img/gen/f/0/HBf0iw9h_Pxgen_r_467xA.jpg
http://mazingazeta.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/2563_1_070523_neapel_dpa_70x46.jpg
http://www.n24.de/media/_fotos/3panorama/2008_9/juli_8/080731_2/neapel_dpa_gr.jpg

This isnt China. This is an EU country - welcome to Italy!

[Ordie]

well, since that's what you ultimately want. you can hope for it. :D

Not at all.

That is why I advocate for China to improve its environmental conditions.

[Kilgor]

This isnt China. This is an EU country - welcome to Italy!

Thats the garbage strike.

bit of a difference.

[Alex G]

Thats the garbage strike.

bit of a difference.

And how long does it last already? It isnt stike in first place - Neapel just dont have any place to put garbage anymore. And coastal waters in Italy are pretty much wasted too.

[Confuse]

And how long does it last already? It isnt stike in first place - Neapel just dont have any place to put garbage anymore. And coastal waters in Italy are pretty much wasted too.


they both suffer from the same problem of corruption, proper enforcement is key

[Confuse]

Without clean water, you cannot have safe food to eat.

And that is a major threat to the Communists.


isn't anything being a major threat to the communists what your looking for ??

[Blue P]

That is why I advocate for China to improve its environmental conditions.

or use it as an excuse to persuade china slowing down its growth.

if he doesn't listen, and he won't, you gain the moral highground anyway.

win win!!