Treatment of Korean War prisoners in NK?

[MN_Air]

I recently found my great-uncle on a Korean War POW/MIA website. The website says that he was captured on Feb. 14th 1951, and died in captivity on April 30th, 1951.
link to his page:
http://www.koreanwar.org/html/korean_war_project_remembrance.html

Is there any way of knowing for sure that this is the correct day of death? And is there any way that I can find out if he died of wounds received, or was killed by the North Koreans? I have read a couple papers concerning Korean and Chinese treatment of American and South Korean POWs and it says that almost all of the rules of the Geneva Convention were broken in the treatment of prisoners.
Basically I would just like to know if there is a chance that he wasn't murdered by the North Koreans while in captivity.

Also, What are the chances of finding his remains? I have seen that a couple bodies have been brought back over the past few years, but it seems like with the US/NK tensions going on it would be hard to even look for someone over there.

Thanks for the help in advanced, and if there is any other info I need to provide I will try and help.

[SBL]

I don't recall which book, but I remember reading that the Chinese did a better job of following Geneva guidelines than the North Koreans did. The North Koreans were concerned with first sweeping away resistance as quickly as possible, and later on surviving, so the treatment of prisoners was kind of an afterthought.

[gaijinsamurai]

May your great uncle rest in peace, mn_air. I feel for anyone who was captured by the Communists during the Korean War.
It is probable that we will never know what happened to hundreds of servicemen who were unaccounted for.
I wear a MIA bracelet for Cpl. Grover Williams of 7th Marines, who went MIA during the Chosin Reservoir campaign.

[Confuse]

I don't recall which book, but I remember reading that the Chinese did a better job of following Geneva guidelines than the North Koreans did. The North Koreans were concerned with first sweeping away resistance as quickly as possible, and later on surviving, so the treatment of prisoners was kind of an afterthought.


for the most part the chinese went out of their way to treat POW very well and even return them to US lines after treating their wounds and feeding them along with some words about them fighting for evil imperialists ... this being a tactic to foster doubt of the mission and lower moral on the enemy side or even have sympathizers give up info or desert causing more negative moral, this along with the fact that holding POWs is a drain on the chinese resources, these tactics were evolved during the chinese civil war and as a whole an effort to win not just the battle but the war by defeating the enemy from within... when it came to POWs the north koreans were just as brutal as the south koreans, most of the civilian deaths on both sides was the result of anti-north/south sympathizer purges, seoul changed hands 4 times during the war each time was a purge by either the north or the south

[LineDoggie]

From what I've read you satood a better chance of surviving captivity in a Chicom camp than a NK one(Chicom camps had their own terrors). The North Koreans were known for summary execution of POW's. IIRC one of the 187th's Combat Jumps found a trainload of US POW's hacked to pieces on a abandoned train. The Norks saw the parachutes and slaughtered the prisoners rather than chance their rescue. Google Life Images Korean War and you will see hundreds of images of atrocities they committed in 1950-51.

Was he with 2nd Infantry Division near Chipyong-ni?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chipyong-ni

[MN_Air]

He was 2nd Inf, 9th Reg, L company, and was a Sergeant. That is right around the date he was captured though. So I'll have to look around for battles that were near or on the 14th of February, 1951

[LineDoggie]

Love Company would have been 3rd Battalion of the Regiment and would be a Rifle Company (Dog, How, Mike companies being the Weapons companies)of 193 men at full strength.

If he had been there since the fall he had survived running the Gauntlet at Kunu-ri (a Meatgrinder for the 2ID) in November

Oh yeah Buck Sergeant (3 striper)rank didnt exist between 1948 -1955 so he would wear Staff Sergeant(3up 1 rocker) Chevrons

[MN_Air]

He was on a base in Germany before he went to Korea, and married a German girl while he was over there. The whole 2nd ID would have deployed at the same time right?

The battle of the Ch'ongch'on River ended in Dec 2nd of 1950(or so wikipedia tells me), and that is 2 months before he was captured, so it would put him there for the battle of Kunu-ri.

Is it a possibility that he was a replacement for a casualty that was wounded or killed at the battle of Kunu-ri?


I'll see if I can contact his family (we don't see them much) and find out when he was deployed if they know.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The North Koreans were known for summary execution of POW's. IIRC one of the 187th's Combat Jumps found a trainload of US POW's hacked to pieces on a abandoned train. The Norks saw the parachutes and slaughtered the prisoners rather than chance their rescue. Google Life Images Korean War and you will see hundreds of images of atrocities they committed in 1950-51.

Not only that, but NK is still holding several hundred South Korean POWs from the war. 79 of them have escaped since 1994.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_POWs_detained_in_North_Korea

[china_police]

Chinese never torture POWS

[LineDoggie]

Chinese never torture POWS
And Unicorns roam free in Atlantis.....

[Mastermind]

Chinese never torture POWS

Yes...I have heard they served POWs ice cream and chocolate cake every Tuesday and Thursday...and on odd numbered days, they all went to the zoo ...and every POW's birthday was celebrated with a party that included pony rides and balloon twisting clowns. On weekends, during the summer, it was BBQ on Saturday and Chicken and dumplings on sunday...with plenty of time off for volleyball, listening to jazz concerts and opening packages from home.

It surely was a delight to be there....many did not come home they were so fond of the Chinese hospitality...so I've heard....

(s)!!!

[Clown123]

Chinese never torture POWS

Chinese's treatment of UN POWs was better than North Korean. You have to give them that. However, the difference is maybe 38% of mortality rate vs 70+%. The mortality rate of US POW in CPVA's hand was even worse than their brothers in Japanese's hand during WW2.

During the first six months' Chinese involvement in the KW, CPVA (i.e., PLA) was not prepared to handle foreign POWs. From their experiences in the Chinese Civil War, there is no POW problem. There were only three types of captured soldiers: the ones who can be converted to join PLA right away, the ones who are useless and harmless and can let go, and the ones who are war criminals or reactionaries and should be executed. When CPVA began to collect thousands of UN POWs, they kind of ignoring them and did not provide appropriate foods, medicine, clothing, and shelters. Lots of US POWs died during this period.

According to a report by POW Management Office, CPVA, by end of June, 1951, it held 2,117 American, 830 British, 209 Turkish, and 193 Korean POWs. NKPA held about another 440 US POWs. 1,315 POWs died in CPVA's captivity by end of June, 1951. In June, there were still about 3 POW death every day. The report also admitted some of the POWs were tortured to death or crippled.

It was during June, 1951 that both sides start to seek for negotiation after CPVA's disastrous spring offense. Chinese started to realize that there had been too many POW deaths. It would put it in a poor position during the negotiation. They started to treat UN POW a little bit better. Just a little bit. And then the mortality rate dropped.

Overall, the US POW mortality rate in CPVA's hand is about 38%. It's about the same as in the notorious Mukden POW camp in WW2.

[Hongjian]

Wikipedia page about the PVA treatment of POW, says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army


War crimes

In contrast with their Korean counterpart, war crimes committed by the Chinese are rather few in number.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-roe-1)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-mahoney105-13) But according to author Kevin Mahoney in his study of the PVA, executions of POWs did occur during the heat of the battle.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-mahoney105-13) Most of the executions appears to be committed by the lower commands without the upper echelons' knowledge,[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-mahoney106-14) and it is often carried out to prevent the future escapes or rescues of the POWs.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-mahoney106-14) There were also allegations of prisoner mistreatments by the Chinese, but given the general unpreparedness of the PVA for an external conflict, the Chinese were no better at taking care of the prisoners than taking care of their own soldiers.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-roe-1)



Brainwashing and POWs

Prisioners-of-war (POWs) played a major role in the continuation of the war past 1951. The US accused China of brainwashing US prisoners while China refused to allow the US to repatriate POWs to Taiwan. During the Panmunjeom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panmunjeom) Truce negotiations, the chief stumbling block to the arrangement of a final armistice during the winter of 1951–1952 revolved around the exchange of prisoners. At first glance, there appeared to be nothing to argue about, since the Geneva Conventions of 1949, by which both sides had pledged to abide, called for the immediate and complete exchange of all prisoners upon the conclusion of hostilities. This seemingly straightforward principle, however, disturbed many Americans. To begin with, UN prisoner-of-war camps held over 40,000 South Koreans, many of whom had been impressed into Communist service and who had no desire to be sent north upon the conclusion of the war. Moreover, a considerable number of North Korean and Chinese prisoners had also expressed a desire not to return to their homelands. This was particularly true of the Chinese POWs, some of whom were anti-Communists whom the Communists had forcibly inducted into their army.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-16)
During what the Chinese call the 5th campaign (May 1951), the CPV suffered its largest loss: the 180th Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180th_Division_%28People%27s_Republic_of_China%29) of the 60th Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60th_Army_%28People%27s_Republic_of_China%29) was totally destroyed. Roughly 3,000 men escaped earlier (including the division commander and other high ranking officers), but the majority of the division were killed or captured. During the final days of the 5th campaign, the main body of the 180th Division was encircled during a UN counterattack, and after days of hard fighting, the division was fragmented, and the regiments fled in all directions. Soldiers either deserted or are abandoned by their officers during failed attempts to wage guerilla warfare without support from locals. Finally, out of ammunition and food, some five thousand soldiers were captured. The division commander and other officers who escaped were subsequently investigated and demoted back in China.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-17)
Most of those captured from the 180th Division were sent to Koje Island, 25 miles (40 km) southwest of Pusan, including the Division Commissar Pei Shan. While there, a fight broke out amongst the Chinese prisoners along party lines. Supporters of Nationalist China openly slaughtered prisoners who refused to go to Taiwan, while Communist sympathizers hang one of their own in secret for betraying the identity of Commissar Pei to the Americans during an interrogation session. Those who decided to return back to China after the war are ultimately regarded as disgraceful cowards who have betrayed the Communist Party and their country by not fighting to their last breath. Each soldier was expelled from the Chinese Communist Party, given a dishonorable discharge, and either jailed or sent to labor-reform camps.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army#cite_note-18)



Also; this article could also give some insights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War