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happyslapper
04-02-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm sure I'm not the only one who will be basing a large part of my vote on defence, in the coming general election. It's a struggle to get any party to say something meaningful, but here's a short piece which gives some general outlines on what each of the main opposition parties intend:

What would your party do for defence if elected?

Wednesday, March 31, 2010

It is often remarked that the defence of the realm should be the first priority of any government. But what does the government need to do – and, indeed, what will it do – for defence? With an election approaching, DMJ asks a selection of contributors from different parties to share their thoughts



Nick Harvey, Liberal Democrats' Shadow Defence Secretary

The government's defence priorities 20 years on from the end of the Cold War remain hopelessly skewed towards the kind of big ticket, state-on-state priorities of that era.

Recent news reports have suggested Gordon Brown plans to commit to further huge numbers of fast jets, including completing the extremely costly Eurofighter programme. At the same time, Labour and the Tories are committed to pushing ahead with a like-for-like replacement of Trident. There is no sign of the radical rethink that Britain's Armed Forces so badly need.

Talk of a Strategic Defence Review is widespread, but the government appears determined to fiddle round the edges rather than ensure this is truly comprehensive. In particular, the replacement of Trident – despite being one of the highest-spending programmes – will bizarrely be left out of the Strategic Defence Review.

Meanwhile, our forces' ability to fight the conflicts of the present has been hampered by a procurement process that is too often out of date, hopelessly late or downright inept.

Nowhere has this been more apparent than the government's reliance on Urgent Operational Requirements to ensure troops in Afghanistan have been given the equipment they need – such as armoured vehicles. When it comes to capabilities such as helicopters, delivery has often not even been lastminute – see the government's recent announcement on new Chinooks, which will not be ready for operations before 2012.

So what would the Liberal Democrats' priorities be? First and foremost must be a thorough Strategic Defence Review. It must not be undermined beforehand through exceptions: everything, including the replacement of Trident, must be included. There must be no sacred cows.

Second, we need to see a much more responsive, faster-moving approach to procurement. It cannot be right that it has taken over eight years in Afghanistan before an order for new Chinooks even goes in. Equally, it does not make sense to sign up to spending billions more on Tranche 3B of Eurofighter when we are already committed to far more of these costly aircraft – conceived primarily as a defence against the Soviet threat – than we need.

Last but by no means least, we need to do much more to ensure the needs of the people we ask to carry out this dangerous work for us are prioritised.

Recent years have seen far too many procurement scandals – from a lack of body armour to the long-running problems of the SA80 rifle – which have endangered the safety of our troops. At a time when we are asking the British public to accept belt-tightening, and our troops to endure great hardships on the front line, we must be able to demonstrate that not one penny is being wasted while doing everything we can to support our forces.

The Liberal Democrats want to do more to support our troops, and ensure they are better able to do their jobs – from fairer pay and conditions to better housing and kit.

All of this will mean asking tougher questions of the MoD, on every issue, from the amount spent on staffing and top brass salaries to serious problems with procurement – from overruns to a flat-footed process that sees the delivery of programmes decades after they are needed. A truly comprehensive Strategic Defence Review is the vehicle for this – but it must not be neutered beforehand by a raft of exceptions, pre-emptions and caveats.


Liam Fox, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence

The next government will inherit an economic train wreck. Naturally, this will have an impact on how national defence structures are organised.

Any future government will have the task of balancing defence priorities between the conflict we face today and wars of tomorrow, but will also have the challenge of putting back on track a decade of mismanagement and neglect of the MoD's finances.

But saying that we can only focus on 'the war' at the expense of 'a war' is not good enough for the British people, and would be an easy way out for any government whose first and foremost responsibility is the defence of the realm.

Given the degree and velocity of global change, defining our strategic interests and determining how to protect them is one of the biggest challenges facing any government. How do we balance competing defence priorities? How do we ensure that current commitments are properly resourced without neglecting future strategic challenges?

In order to make sense of this, a wide ranging and detailed Strategic Defence and Security Review should immediately be launched.

In sum, an SDSR will serve as the primary means of the MoD to assess the global and strategic threats to the United Kingdom and how our response to these threats will be translated into potentially new policies, capabilities and force structure.

There is a lot of speculation and talk on what part of the equipment programme will take the biggest hit under a Conservative Government.

Before anything can be decided we must first finish our foreign policy-based SDSR. There has not been a review in 12 years and if you start to cut programmes in a piecemeal fashion on the basis of costs, it's likely to have implications for your foreign policy that you may not have intended.

However, there is one programme that is exempt from the SDSR process.

In a world where unpredictable and rogue states are developing nuclear weapons, it would be indefensible for Britain to give up its minimum nuclear deterrent. We cannot know what risks we might face in the future. That is why our party wish to guarantee a round the clock, submarine-based nuclear deterrent based on the Trident missile system for as long as it is needed.

None of this will be easy and difficult choices will have to be made, but we are ready for the challenge.


David Campbell Bannerman MEP, UKIP Deputy Leader and Defence Spokesman

Over the years, the British Armed Forces have been starved of proper funding by successive governments of all colours. This has meant insufficient equipment, overstretched resources, as well as excessive tours of duty, which can badly damage the fabric of family life.

During the current economic down - turn, UKIP is committed to making hard decisions on public spending, as we regard defence as a special case – our armed forces are fast losing critical mass and face yet more devastation post the General Election.

An extra 1% of GDP should be spent on the British Armed Forces as we believe they need better support and that the economy would benefit. This is an increase of 40% on the current defence budget. Under our plans, the British Army will be expanded to 125,000 personnel and the TA will be doubled to 80,000. Moreover, as the only party committed to leaving the EU, we will restore many of the British Army's historic regiments such as the Highland regiments, which have been subsumed into EU-inspired regional units.

The Royal Navy will be restored to its 2001 strength with three new aircraft carriers (one extra), 12 Fleet submarines and some 70 other ships. There will also be 50 extra Merlin helicopters and some 7,000 extra personnel, and the future of naval ports Plymouth, Portsmouth and Rosyth guaranteed.

Britain's independent nuclear deterrent with existing Trident submarines will also be maintained and then replaced in the near future with four British built US missile armed submarines. For the RAF, a UKIP Government will modernise the transport fleet, buy more helicopters and JSF aircraft and bring in 5,000 more personnel.

We strongly believe in properly supporting those who risk their lives for their country. A much more generous compensation scheme for injury should be introduced and the system of military hospitals be reinstated over time. In addition, service pay will be increased substantially to broadly match the police and fire services, and service families will be provided with much better accommodation.

Crown immunity will be restored and the Human Rights Act scrapped – it will not hold individuals responsible for collective military action, putting a stop to unjust persecutions of military personnel. And the operation in Afghanistan will also be appraised, and a proper single strategy set out.

We believe we are the only party prepared to give the British Armed Forces the proper resources, backing and equipment needed to fulfil their demanding global role.


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My comment.
For me, I'd love to say ''yeah great UKIP will give us the most'', but it's just not realistic, and we need experienced heavyweight politicians to get us out of this economic muddle. The Lib Dems are completely clueless, Labour's on a last minute damage-control vote-grabber, and the Tories are non-commital in the middle somewhere.
Feel free to post further info or opinions, and hopefully by the time of the election the British contingent of this site will have a far clearer understanding of how to get the most (r.e. defence) out of their vote.

CMNot
04-02-2010, 06:46 PM
The only thing the Armed Forces have got going for it in the face of suicidal economics, is that the army is currently bleeding abroad and enjoying an anachronistic swell of public empathy.

AtomicAardvark
04-03-2010, 04:20 AM
I remember reading the last Strategic Defence Review with a certain amount of horror at the way the then newly installed Labour Government was planning the set about scaling back the military, ironically at the same time the Armed Forces seemed to be PM Tony Blair's go to guys when it came to tough foreign policy decisions - Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. And yet during Tony Blair's time in office there was never another Strategic Defence Review, despite the Armed Forces being commited to a number of peace keeping/enforcement missions, fighting a 'conventional' war against Saddam Hussein and a counterinsurgency in southern Afghanistan.

Having read some of the background stuff circulating regarding the post-Election SDR I still can't believe that not one party has decided to take a more regular in depth look at defence of the realm than as and when they like it; what I would most like to see is for whichever party succeeds the Gordon Brown government to realise that defence isn't something that they can just willingly ignore until there is a public outcry or a recession, why can't we learn from the example set by the US DoD and conduct a regular review of all defence (the US Quadrennial Defense Review). For me this seems to be the obvious way to keep a tight leash on some of the MoD's more problematic issues like an outdated and severly broken procurement process, poor welfare and social care for the wounded and veterans and the defence budget.

I can't believe that after almost nine years in Afghanistan we are still buying equipment to be used in theatre that it not sufficiently equipped to handle the environmental conditions - the new tanker/transport aircraft. This highlights prehaps the biggest problem - we train and equip to fight the last war we fought. Okay, so lessons should be learnt, and better equipment procured but at the same time future threats should be identified and the means of addressing them explored; instead the government of the day has pretty much stuck its collective head in the sand and hoped and prayed for the best.

From a General Election POV I would be surprised if defence was high on the agenda of most of Joe Public, nor the three main parties; yes each of the parties will have a defence policy and yes there will be certain people interested in these policies but alas we will only be a very small minority of the electorate. There's an old saying that I learnt whilst at studying politics at university concerning election: "It's the economy stupid!" This will be the one issue, both who got us into the current mess whilst driving asleep at the wheel and how will they get us out of said mess, that is going to dominate the election. Everything else is going to be a moot point unfortunately.

martinexsquaddie
04-03-2010, 03:31 PM
the next sdr will be cuts as has every other one.
if it came back saying we needed to spend more it would be sent back till it was on message :(

marktigger
04-06-2010, 05:13 AM
Depends on your outlook and time of life having left the armed forces I have other issues as well. But defence is high on my agenda. The Lib-Dems have made much of scalling back Euro Fighter and scrapping trident. The main issue will be the Economey and public services. Defence is very low on the vast majority of joe publics list of important issues. I want a party with a Broader view on defence not just current operations I want to see some forward thinking so our armed forces are on a footing to meet threats over the next 20-30 years. UKIP will be a wasted vote and actually there could be electoral history as the Liberals could actually make an impact. Possibly even forming a government.

happyslapper
04-13-2010, 03:25 PM
Courtesy of the BBC's Election Webpage:

Conservative:
Supported military action in Afghanistan and Iraq; committed to replacing Trident to maintain the UK's independent nuclear deterrent; would double the operational bonus for troops serving in Afghanistan; provide university and further education scholarships for the children of servicemen and women killed while on active duty; pilot a telephone service to track and monitor veterans– mental health after they leave the Armed Forces; introduce a US-style system of regular strategic defence reviews; launch a Strategic Defence and Security Review shortly after the election to establish the required level of defence spending for the future, the defence part of the review to report before the full Spending Review in the autumn; protect the defence budget for 2010-11; strengthen Britain–s defence relationships with the US and France.

Labour:
Committed UK to military action in Afghanistan and Iraq; ended active UK military involvement in Iraq; committed to replacing Trident to maintain the UKs independent nuclear deterrent; increase defence co-operation with international partners, in particular France; free further or higher education up to first degree level for service leavers after six years of service; 8bn investment programme in accommodation for service personnel over the next 10 years; ensure that service personnel and their families retain their places on NHS waiting lists when they move; construct two new aircraft carriers.

Liberal Democrats:
Opposed war in Iraq and warn strategy in Afghanistan is failing; support political settlement with moderate Taleban to move towards ending the war in Afghanistan; cut spending on fighter jet procurement and operational costs and invest in helicopters for Afghanistan; consider cheaper alternatives to Trident nuclear deterrent; halve the UKs stockpile of nuclear warheads as a prelude to kick-starting multilateral disarmament; raise the basic pay of lower ranks and NCOs in line with equivalent police ranks; double the number of forces family homes to be refurbished.

Green Party:
Immediate withdrawal of UK and NATO forces from Afghanistan; ensure in future that the British military is only used in self-defence, or as a last resort, within a UN-led force; refocus the military on crisis prevention, emergency relief and conflict resolution; seek global agreements against all WMD, particularly nuclear weapons; end subsidies for arms exports; scrap Trident.

UK Independance Party:
Spend 40% more on defence to upgrade equipment, military homes and medical care for the armed forces; double the size of the Territorial Army; recruit 25,000 more troops; reject moves towards a common EU defence policy; only deploy British troops when it is clearly in the national interest.

Plaid Cymru:
Opposed Iraq and Afghanistan wars and would remove British troops from Afghanistan; scrap Trident; cancel the Typhoon Eurofighter programme and abandon plans for two new aircraft carriers; support veterans by providing more thorough debriefing service before discharge and better support in civilian life.

Scottish Green Party:
Reduce overall military spending; scraps plane for new aircraft carriers, Trident and the Typhoon fighter aircraft and redirect funds to other spending priorities; prioritise peacekeeping and conflict resolution.

Scottish National Party:
Give Scottish Government control over Scottish armed forces; re-assess the role and strategy of UK troops in Afghanistan, including the option to withdraw; scrap Trident nuclear weapons system and permanently rule out nuclear weapons in Scotland; condemn 4.3bn underspend in Scotland by Ministry of Defence; more support for veterans.

(I left out some parties http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8515961.stm#subject=defence&col1=conservative&col2=labour&col3=uup )

happyslapper
04-13-2010, 03:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/BcLuAwUgnVI&hl=en_US&fs=1

james21
04-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Green Party:
Immediate withdrawal of UK and NATO forces from Afghanistan; ensure in future that the British military is only used in self-defence, or as a last resort, within a UN-led force; refocus the military on crisis prevention, emergency relief and conflict resolution; seek global agreements against all WMD, particularly nuclear weapons; end subsidies for arms exports; scrap Trident.

According to there website they would cut the defence budget, not only that they would 'control' the UK arms industry. So that would definitely make BAE move its HQ to the US. Never fear though cause we can get all those ex-BAE workers to work in the 44BN government funded renewables industry.


Plaid Cymru:
Opposed Iraq and Afghanistan wars and would remove British troops from Afghanistan; scrap Trident; cancel the Typhoon Eurofighter programme and abandon plans for two new aircraft carriers; support veterans by providing more thorough debriefing service before discharge and better support in civilian life.

How can you cancel something that has already been bought? So what would defend our Airspace?


Scottish Green Party:
Reduce overall military spending; scraps plane for new aircraft carriers, Trident and the Typhoon fighter aircraft and redirect funds to other spending priorities; prioritise peacekeeping and conflict resolution.

So put Scottish shipyard workers out of a job? What 'other' priorities? Giving more cash to the benefit wasters? or lets throw more money at the already bloated NHS.


Scottish National Party:
Give Scottish Government control over Scottish armed forces; re-assess the role and strategy of UK troops in Afghanistan, including the option to withdraw; scrap Trident nuclear weapons system and permanently rule out nuclear weapons in Scotland; condemn 4.3bn underspend in Scotland by Ministry of Defence; more support for veterans.

I would love to know what the local economy of HMNB Clyde thinks, i bet they would love for 4,000 of the civilian staff to loose there jobs. What about the 3,000 military staff and there familes? I bet they put alot of cash into the local economy.

This is the same party that has been moaning about Labour cutting 10,000 defence jobs in Scotland. How do they think Scottish shipyards would survive with the break up of the union? If the union became no more i can hardly see massive orders from England.

With parties like these this country is f*cked.

marktigger
04-14-2010, 11:09 AM
Lib-Dems

Raise basic salary for service personell to same as emergencey services
Not replace Trident with Like
Scrap Tranche 3B Typhoon
Review all defence procurment spending and slash programmes
hold SDR

Wahnsinn
04-14-2010, 03:10 PM
This is the same party that has been moaning about Labour cutting 10,000 defence jobs in Scotland. How do they think Scottish shipyards would survive with the break up of the union? If the union became no more i can hardly see massive orders from England.

With parties like these this country is f*cked.

I'm ashamed to live in Scotland with Alex Salmond as first minister getting ideas way above his station, about protecting Scotland from spending cuts etc. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland will all get major cuts but he doesn't seem to realise these cuts need to be made.

I for a start won't vote for any party that calls for the withdrawl of British troops from Afghanistan immeadiately as that would just make everything worse. I find the Tory perspective frustrating as they seem to be sitting on the fence but I agree with a lot of their proposals for other areas. I find the Lib Dem idea of scrapping Trident a little misguided and I find it funny that only at the election have Labour actually come up with any ideas to do anything.

happyslapper
04-14-2010, 03:19 PM
I'm much the same. I won't vote for any party which advocates immediate withdrawal from Afghanitan, nor any party which is against a full Trident replacement. I also think it's incredibly important and well overdue to have regular defence reviews.

On paper, of the three main parties, Labour and the Tories represent the best of those. Given Labour's track record, I'm harly enthused. The Lib Dems are an appallingly out of touch bunch of reactionary pussies. The other parties either have some overarcing political agenda, or are entirely unrealistic (e.g. UKIP).

Russianlynxy
04-14-2010, 04:26 PM
what about BNP?

martinexsquaddie
04-15-2010, 07:34 AM
ah yes the BNP
bring back conscription pull out of nato require men to keep a loaded assualt rifle at home plus reunite Ireland in the British Union wtf! your be needing that free assualt rifle along with deporting everyone whose got a sun tan and building camps for homo******s and anyone else they dislike. the comedy option really.

Niall
04-15-2010, 07:50 AM
There was little point listing Plaid Cymru and SNP because only Welsh and Scots would ever vote for them. I found it funny when their leaders didn't realise this when they were whining about not getting on the main party debates!

It's a toss up between Labour and Tories for me..havn't made my mind up yet.

james21
04-15-2010, 09:33 AM
what about BNP?

The BNP’s defence policy is to:
- Strengthen our conventional forces;
- Retain a genuinely independent nuclear deterrent and produce all our weaponry in Britain;
- Only commit British forces when British national interests are at stake;
- Preserve and restore our historic County Regiments;
- Bring our troops back from Germany and withdraw from NATO, since political developments make both commitments obsolete;
- Close all foreign military bases on British soil;
- Refuse to risk British lives in meddling ‘peacekeeping’ missions in parts of the world where no British interests are at stake;
- Restore national service for our young with the option of civil or military service.

The defence policy of the BNP is very unrealistic.

ServerStalker
04-15-2010, 10:01 AM
I really liked the libs until they came out with a defence policy worthy or wiping my arse on and flushing it down the loo. I'd like to think Ukip is the best but some what unrealistic. Which leaves the tories and lab. I really hoped for a change but the rest are = crap as lab at the mo. So what do we do stick with same ol crap diffrent day or hope caman00b can change it which I really doubt. I only like 2 parts of what bnp said but there a bit rash for my liking. What would be really bad is if lab and lib joined up or con and lib which would be even worse.

sasman73
04-15-2010, 11:56 AM
I for a start won't vote for any party that calls for the withdrawl of British troops from Afghanistan immeadiately as that would just make everything worse. I find the Tory perspective frustrating as they seem to be sitting on the fence but I agree with a lot of their proposals for other areas. I find the Lib Dem idea of scrapping Trident a little misguided and I find it funny that only at the election have Labour actually come up with any ideas to do anything.

I too would vote Tory if they just came off the fence on defence matters. If they backed the new carriers i'd vote for them in a heartbeat as I despise Labours erosion of our civil liberty.

The LibDems are a joke on defence. They moan at the other parties for not including Trident in a future SDR but then already prejudge the SDR by announcing they'll cut Trident & Eurofighter themselves.

They always spout on about alternatives to Trident renewal but when questioned can never give an answer as to what these alternatives are. Its because there are none that are more efficient or cheaper, studies have already shown this.