Are Israeli Arabs the new African Americans?

[Ordie]

Are Israeli Arabs the new African Americans?

By Tom Segev


On August 28, 1963, hundreds of thousands of people gathered at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington. They came to demonstrate against discrimination against black people in the United States. The main speaker was the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

"I have a dream," thundered King, time after time. Among other things he saw in his dream, "... the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood."

Nearly 47 years after that speech, and 42 years after King was assassinated, there are no longer any laws discriminating against blacks in America. Though most of them still do not enjoy equal opportunity, President Barack Obama is in the White House.

King always stressed that his dream was anchored deeply in the American dream. Replacing the word "Negro," which King and Americans in general still used then, with the words "Israeli Arab," could also anchor this dream in the Israeli dream.

The first Zionists believed in equality "the son of the Arab, the son of Nazareth and my son" (as Ze'ev Jabotinsky wrote), and promoted the thesis that the settlement and development of the land would be to the benefit of all its inhabitants, Jews and Arabs.

The Zionist movement made a commitment to equality and tolerance. One of its founders, the writer Ahad Ha'am, condemned the oppression of Arab workers by the first Jewish farmers who settled the land at the end of the 19th century. In "Altneuland," Theodor Herzl's dream novel, there is a fanatical rabbi called Dr. Geier ("Geier" means "vulture" in German), who claims the land of Israel belongs only to the Jews. He founds a party that demands the denial of the right to vote to Arabs. Geier speaks in the language of the anti-Semitic leader Karl Lueger, the mayor of Vienna and a contemporary of Herzl, who became one of Hitler's sources of inspiration. In Herzl's dream, Geier is defeated in the elections and European liberalism is victorious.

However, the ideological and political effort the Zionists invested in defining the Jews as a nation did not lead them to recognize the national identity of the Palestinians as well. Some of them saw the Arabs as biblical figures: That is how they were envisioned in the dreams of the fathers of the Jewish nation. Most of them believed Arab culture was barbaric and inferior, as well as the Arabs' national identity. They expected the Arabs to acknowledge the Jewish ownership of the land, and to trust in their liberal and religious fairness.

Boris Schatz, the artist who founded the Bezalel School of Art in Jerusalem, envisioned the Jews transferring the golden Dome of the Rock from the Temple Mount to some other hill, as "a memento of gratitude to the Arabs, our good neighbors, for having preserved our holy places with great care."

The dream of establishing an outpost of European culture in the Land of Israel and the declared intention of instituting equal rights in the state helped the Zionist movement win international support, such as in the form of the Balfour Declaration, in which the British government committed itself to the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Palestine. Israel's Declaration of Independence, in 1948, also promised that the state would be based on foundations of liberty, justice and peace, "as envisioned by the prophets of Israel," and that there would be "complete equality of social and political rights to all ... inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or ***."

The general principles of the Declaration of Independence resemble those of the American Declaration, from 1776, the foundation document of the American dream, which Martin Luther King also quoted.

A re-reading of the dreams King set forth in his speech reflects a speaker who was living in a society that nurtured discrimination and especially segregation between the races. It is easy to forget he was speaking in the second half of the 20th century.

"There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, 'When will you be satisfied?' We can never be satisfied," said King, "as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities." His dream that one day his four little children, and other "little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls" also sounds like it comes from a far earlier era.

Military government

The situation of the Arabs in Israel in 1963 was also very difficult. Nearly all of them lived under the rule of military government, which imposed restrictions on mobility and other draconian regulations that were arbitrarily, insensitively and sometimes maliciously enforced.

One of the main purposes of the military government imposed on the Arabs was to make it easier to expropriate their lands. Most of them were allowed to vote and to stand for election, but the various government authorities, including the Prime Minister's Office, the Shin Bet security service, the Israel Defense Forces, the Histadrut labor federation and the political parties effectively denied them the right to free political organization. And they suffered discrimination in many other areas, too.

King's speech advanced the values of the 1960s, echoes of which were also heard in Israel, where the military government was abolished in stages in the period before and after the Six-Day War. The mechanisms of oppression concentrated thereafter on the Arabs in the territories. However, what King said about unfulfilled promises remains true today with respect to the Arabs of Israel.

From the perspective of the blacks, said King, the declarations of freedom and equality at the basis of the American dream are like a check that has been returned from the bank due to insufficient funds. "But we refuse to believe," he declared, "that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. And so, we've come to cash this check."

The State of Israel has also deposited quite a lot of promissory notes among its Arab citizens, and many of them have not yet been cashed.

King was a man whom the enlightened world loved to love. His "I have a dream speech" became a constitutive document in the struggle for equality among people everywhere. In Jerusalem there is a street named for him, and Yehiel Mohar wrote a poem entitled "I have a dream." In Hebrew it rhymes, but the words are rather thin:

"I have a dream / and it is more real than any reality / and it is very ancient and also new / The day will come / brighter than the sun and sweeter than honey / I have a dream."

The poem goes on like this for two more stanzas and at the end it becomes clear that in contrast to King's very daring speech, Mohar's most political line only promises "a song of peace" that will arise from here. There isn't a single word about oppression and equality.

The similarity between the struggle of America's blacks and that of Israel's Arabs is expressed in the contents of their respective dreams: a state of all its citizens. The blacks in America had, and still have, a basis for being optimistic. That is the main difference between them and the Arabs of Israel.

There was an abundance of hope and faith in a better future in King's speech, as expressed in the old Negro spiritual from which he quoted: "Free at last! Free at Last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last."

King made a point of warning his people not to act violently but rather to keep the faith in "a symphony of brotherhood," as he said. We are all "God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics," and someday, all will be able "to join hands and sing." Today no doubt he would have added "Muslims" as well.

Over the years, America has knocked down many walls of separation, discrimination and racism. According to a survey published in Haaretz last month, one out of every two Jewish young people in Israel believes Arabs should not have rights equal to those of Jews. About 56 percent of them believe it is not necessary for Arabs to be allowed to be elected to the Knesset.

At the opening of the first session of the First Knesset, in 1949, there were three Arabs among the 120 members. Tawfik Toubi, an Arab communist born in Haifa and the last surviving member of that Knesset, warned: "Denying democracy and freedom to a national minority leads to the denial of democracy and freedom to all the country's inhabitants. It is impossible to portion out democracy and freedom."

For many years it seemed as though such discrimination was indeed possible: Jews enjoyed basic democratic rights that were denied to Arabs. The abundance of manifestations of racism against Jews, such as Sephardim, immigrants from Ethiopia and others, has deepened the sense that Toubi was right, as was Martin Luther King, Jr.

Source:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1160941.html

[yond]

What's up with your obsession with Israel?!

[the_Wicked]

Ummmm what freedoms are actually denied to Israeli Arabs? Elaborate please.

[ZZEZ]

Seeing the thread title from the forum index I knew it could only come from Ordie.

[Telmar]

This is really a bad comparison.

Arabs with voting rights would overwhelm the Israeli system and the safety of Jews. Black Americans were simply put aside by a racist/immature society, not for the risk their rights represented to the United States as a whole.


Ummmm what freedoms are actually denied to Israeli Arabs? Elaborate please.

I doubt he's talking about them. Try to think a little.

[Holmes85]

Seeing the thread title from the forum index I knew it could only come from Ordie.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[the_Wicked]

This is really a bad comparison.

Arabs with voting rights would overwhelm the Israeli system and the safety of Jews. Black Americans were simply put aside by a racist/immature society, not for the risk their rights represented to the United States as a whole.



I doubt he's talking about them. Try to think a little.

If he's talking about the Palestinians then that's a non-issue - they're not "second class citizens", they're non-citizens of Israel period, they're practically a different country.

[Rudolph]

This is really a bad comparison.

Arabs with voting rights would overwhelm the Israeli system and the safety of Jews. Black Americans were simply put aside by a racist/immature society, not for the risk their rights represented to the United States as a whole.

Well, isn't that the basis of democracy, who ever holds numerical superiority holds the power? Whether he wields fighter jets or has a bone through his nose...

Other than that, interesting article. One question though, are there in fact ANY restrictions on Israeli Arabs? They can go to any school, live anywhere, have no permit, normal car licence plate, etc.? A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient. In case it's not so I could appreciate that to a degree.

[IDF_TANKER]

What's up with your obsession with Israel?!


Seeing the thread title from the forum index I knew it could only come from Ordie.

Everybody gotta have a hobby. Leave the man (and his threads) alone.


Well, isn't that the basis of democracy, who ever holds numerical superiority holds the power? Whether he wields fighter jets or has a bone through his nose...

Other than that, interesting article. One question though, are there in fact ANY restrictions on Israeli Arabs? They can go to any school, live anywhere, have no permit, normal car licence plate, etc.? A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient. In case it's not so I could appreciate that to a degree.

No. The only discrimination laws in Israel are against Jews, e.g. mandatory service in army.

[OrangeWolf]

Well, isn't that the basis of democracy, who ever holds numerical superiority holds the power? Whether he wields fighter jets or has a bone through his nose...

Arabs are not a majority in Israel proper, if you include the territories and Gaza they might be. But I read in other sources they would still be a minority if you include Israel proper and the territories.


Other than that, interesting article. One question though, are there in fact ANY restrictions on Israeli Arabs? They can go to any school, live anywhere, have no permit, normal car licence plate, etc.? A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient. In case it's not so I could appreciate that to a degree.

No. But they can go and study when others have to go to the army.

[11 Bravo]

More slanted drivel via ordieganda from orgyganda.Same old same old.

[Rudolph]

Thx for the answer, good to know.

[RoyB]

Other than that, interesting article. One question though, are there in fact ANY restrictions on Israeli Arabs? They can go to any school, live anywhere, have no permit, normal car licence plate, etc.? A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient. In case it's not so I could appreciate that to a degree.
Israel is not an apartheid state. It has no laws that discriminate any ethnic groups of its citizens other than the mandatory national service, which doesn't apply to Israeli-Arabs. While the Jews have to spend 3/2 years in the army the Arabs can have a 3/2 years head start. Israel's universities are full with Israeli-Arabs who seek high education. Whether its Be'er-Sheva University in the Negev, or Haifa University in the North. Hell, there is a small number(?) of Arabs studying in Ariel - a settlement.

[LineDoggie]

Are Israeli-Arabs being Hanged by baying mobs of Hooded Israelis burning crosses?

If not then No they arent comparable, Ordie.
Segev is one of the "New Historians" who apparently will fellate anything Arab/Left to degrade their own country and people
Leftist Fail

[monolit]

The only discrimination laws in Israel are against Jews, e.g. mandatory service in army.
I thought it's a honour and privilege to serve for your country.

[Rudolph]

^
They're being sarcastic.... it was the same in our country, only the white citizens had mandatory service.

[Beholder]

I thought it's a honour and privilege to serve for your country.

It is.But in such disscursion admitting this leads to disadvantage.;)

[Sumadinac]

Are Nepalese Buddhists the new Cameroonian pygmies?

[OrangeWolf]

are nepalese buddhists the new cameroonian pygmies?

:grin:

1234567890

[Sumadinac]

:grin:

1234567890

Please don't laugh, it's a serious problem.. Show some respect kid.

[Beholder]

One question though, are there in fact ANY restrictions on Israeli Arabs?

No.


1.They can go to any school, 2.live anywhere,3. have no permit,4. normal car licence plate, etc.? A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient. In case it's not so I could appreciate that to a degree.

2,3,4 yes.
1 is more complicated.They can go to any school,but its usualy confronted by school itself.If there is no other option school will ofcource accept,but if there is arabic leng. school near,they will be strongly advised to study there,because study in mother leng. is better.It have nothing to do with democracy,or equal rights,same pressure will be put on jewish child willing to study in arabic school.
So in practice its different schools teach in arabic and hebrew.Also its usualy school near house in israeli education system,so unless perents are realy determined it will not be best school child can get.But there are weak and strong schools in hebrew sector and in arabic sector.Now high school is different.There are strong boarding schools,accept anyone without problem.
In practice result is equality of education.If memory serves me this year best school(bagrut score) actualy was arabic school.;)
And university/colledge same for anyone.

[kalamazan]

The sign of the times.

Change everything that you ever learned and experienced in your life for the good of PC ( Political Correctness). Doubt even your name because your mother may be under a different impression when she gave it to you. Go and change every believe you had from the get go, because it may be WRONG or INSENSIBLE to others feelings.

Do you think for a second that MR. King predicted the Black Panthers holding hands with KKK? Do you think that he lived a DREAM or that he really knew what was going on? Having a dream means that you will need tools to implement it. Passing laws to that effect does not mean that it will be enforced and that peoples perception will change drastically. It takes time and reality on the ground. After few generations it will be done, but no perfection!

What Ben Gurion and other Israeli leaders planned was one thing and reality today is totally different than their dreams. We have a nation because we are strong, we are strong because we are united, and we are united because we have no choice. Once my house is done and I have the time to enjoy my vineyards growing, than I can stretch my hand and try to help others. But, if the others try to steal my home because looks much better than his home, I say NO! I'll fight toots and nails to preserve what I have created. I will bring HELL in their doorstep and not think twice about it. We have been murdered everywhere in this planet and by GOD, NEVER AGAIN!

If you want to sit with me to talk about PEACE, it involves giving and taking. If you think that the world is behind you and you are ALWAYS the underdog, go home and do your homework a bit better. Nobody will GIVE you everything for nothing. What does the Palestinian Authority produces to the benefit of the whole world? NOTHING!!!

Israel, even in a state of war has contributed more to the economies of many countries than the whole Arab world. Is that a coincidence? No, it is called hard working....my two cents...

[Hollis]

Be interesting if there are articles posted that were published in the Palestinian areas that are critical of Hamas/Fatah or Abbas (do the writers even survive?). Maybe Haaretz is the best that it gets. I think one of the signs of a "free" society is that there are media sources like Haaretz, that are free to publish what ever they choose, that in elections there are close election, not 99.99% for that country's dear leader and probably the most important part is that those people are not locked up or murdered. (Recent protests in Iran comes to mind)

If anything, beyond the simple knee jerk response to Haaretz, it actually says the opposite. There is freedom to protest, even if it is a tin foil hat rant. Be nice if this was a common attribute on a global scale.

[Kaplanr]

Can we be a little more honest with ourselves here, please? Segev is actually an excellent historian, who digs into resources that are first becoming available in the last decade, or have been deliberately avoided by other mainstream historians. He's not an Avi Shlaim or Ilan Pappe, but he knows there are Zionist/Jewish warts that should be shown and discussed. I don't agree with all of his analysis, conclusions and the motivations he ascribes to the actors, but I don't see him as a revisionist historian.

As for Israeli Arabs; on paper that can do lots of things that in reality they may not be able to do. Yes they get to start school early but on the other hand how many of the best professions are limited by a requirement at having served or needing a certain security clearance? How many positions and businesses are products of relationships established and forged while sering? Same thing with housing and communities. Can't imagine most Arabs being able to move to Tivon or Modi'in, or me being able to move to Abu Ghosh, Baka al-Gharbia, or Daliat (a Druze town.) I think much of this is natural, but let's not pretend that the playing field is entirely level, and that we all cheerfully wave to each other across our fences. I think Israel is about where the US was in 1970 vis-a-vis "race" relations, but for very different reasons.

[Laworkerbee]

Good post there Kaplanr.

[IDF_TANKER]

Can we be a little more honest with ourselves here, please? Segev is actually an excellent historian, who digs into resources that are first becoming available in the last decade, or have been deliberately avoided by other mainstream historians. He's not an Avi Shlaim or Ilan Pappe, but he knows there are Zionist/Jewish warts that should be shown and discussed. I don't agree with all of his analysis, conclusions and the motivations he ascribes to the actors, but I don't see him as a revisionist historian.

As for Israeli Arabs; on paper that can do lots of things that in reality they may not be able to do. Yes they get to start school early but on the other hand how many of the best professions are limited by a requirement at having served or needing a certain security clearance? How many positions and businesses are products of relationships established and forged while sering? Same thing with housing and communities. Can't imagine most Arabs being able to move to Tivon or Modi'in, or me being able to move to Abu Ghosh, Baka al-Gharbia, or Daliat (a Druze town.) I think much of this is natural, but let's not pretend that the playing field is entirely level, and that we all cheerfully wave to each other across our fences. I think Israel is about where the US was in 1970 vis-a-vis "race" relations, but for very different reasons.

You are right, however the point is that those "restrictions" (which, BTW, are rather symmetrical in the Jews vs Arabs relationships, e.g. residence issues you mentioned) are product of historical regional reality, the ongoing conflict etc, rather than some sort of inherent racist legislating which is the integral part of the "Zionist regime". There are many non-Jewish minorities living in Israel, and the "special" relationships between Jews and Arabs, of all minorities, is the result of certain objective reality and not some uber-menshen racist philosophy. I simply cannot see how country in which minorities, Arabs for this matter, are being Supreme Court judges, government ministers, high rank IDF and police officers etc can qualify as Apartheid (yes I know, not exactly the topic, but it's still somehow in the air)...

BTW, speaking of residence, I know that you are not too updated about current trends in Israel, but if you go to the north Jerusalem traditionally Jewish mid-class neighborhoods, e.g. Giv'a Zarfatit and Pesgat Ze'ev you'll see constantly increasing number in Arab residents there.

[3rdMillhouse]

I was just thinking the same thing.

Thought about the same.


At the opening of the first session of the First Knesset, in 1949, there were three Arabs among the 120 members. Tawfik Toubi, an Arab communist born in Haifa and the last surviving member of that Knesset, warned: "Denying democracy and freedom to a national minority leads to the denial of democracy and freedom to all the country's inhabitants. It is impossible to portion out democracy and freedom."

I find this speech offensive coming from the mouth of a communist.

[Glaz]

As for Israeli Arabs; on paper that can do lots of things that in reality they may not be able to do. Yes they get to start school early but on the other hand how many of the best professions are limited by a requirement at having served or needing a certain security clearance? How many positions and businesses are products of relationships established and forged while sering?
Of course, full disclosure would reveal that they are not restricted from serving, which, per your account, would open all them avenues you mention, and put the israeli arabs on equal footing with the jews, who themselves are required to serve.

[Fifth Business]

From a outsider point of view from when I was in Israel last. Granted this during the right before the initial intifatah outbreak 10 years ago. The Israel Arabs didn't have it all that bad, the ones I met wore gold necklaces, braceletts and drove decent cars. This was in the Arab village near Tulkarm on the Israeli side, I'm not sure I think the town was called Taybeh. Anyways on the other side of the coin the male Arab youth would get shot down as they attempted to flirt with the Israeli beauties on the beach in Netanya. It is not like Israeli Arabs suffer though like the blacks did in the U.S. during the Civil Right movement, I don't think this is fair analysis. Though i suppose and concede there is some parallels to it. Then again I got the impression that Palestinians living in the West Bank envied the Arabs living in Israel, go figure.

[3rdMillhouse]

From a outsider point of view from when I was in Israel last. Granted this during the right before the initial intifatah outbreak 10 years ago. The Israel Arabs didn't have it all that bad, the ones I met wore gold necklaces, braceletts and drove decent cars. This was in the Arab village near Tulkarm on the Israeli side, I'm not sure I think the town was called Taybeh. Anyways on the other side of the coin the male Arab youth would get shot down as they attempted to flirt with the Israeli beauties on the beach in Netanya. It is not like Israeli Arabs suffer though like the blacks did in the U.S. during the Civil Right movement, I don't think this is fair analysis. Though i suppose and concede there is some parallels to it. Then again I got the impression that Palestinians living in the West Bank envied the Arabs living in Israel, go figure.

Ordieganda will do pretty much everything thing he can in order to portray Israel as a tyranical, opressive, dictatorial and racist state.

[Kaplanr]

French Hill doesn't surprise me, Pisgat Zeev does; I remember the brouhaha when it was established. I'm by no means implying a racist agenda, rather that the sociological and social fabric of Israel is very complicated, for the most part works, but shouldn't lull anyone into thinking its nirvana. Abu-Ghosh to Kiryat Anavim or Ma'ale HaHamisha is a socio-economic case-study waiting to happen, and I'd venture that most of the problems in Abu-Ghosh are socio-economic and family as opposed to racism and exclusion. But their humous is excellent.

[Laworkerbee]

I don't understand this "Ordieganda" business?

[bababooey]

I don't understand the Ordieganda comment either...

[bababooey]

Ordieganda will do pretty much everything thing he can in order to portray Israel as a tyranical, opressive, dictatorial and racist state.

Actually, from what I have read on this forum, Ordie posts are very intelligent. I don't see how this article paints Ordie as trying to portray Israel in a bad light. I think its interesting and heartwarming to read that the founding fathers of Zionism had wanted to elevate the lives of all people of the region.

IMO, the situation that exists now is an accumulation of past responses to past problems that are still alive today. Sadly, peace is not today's reality and Israel has to do what its does to keep itself safe and Palestinians feel they have to do what they do.

It would have been wonderful for everyone if the original ideas of peace and progress for all had bore fruit.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well said, Bababooey.
I agree.

[gaijinsamurai]

IMO, the biggest similarity I see is that while things may not be "perfect" (are they ever?) for them, they have it better in Israel than if they were living in the Arab countries. And I don't see thousands of African-Americans emigrating to Somalia, Liberia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Nigeria these days.

[realityexists]

From what I have read and gathered in conversations about Israel it seems to me that there may not be de jure discrimination against Arab Israelis but there is de facto discrimination against them in Israel. In my opinion the common denominator on whether or not an Arab will be discriminated or not is his or her religious identification. If the Arab is Jewish, he's good. If he's not Jewish...well it is "Israel" after all? :-)

For instance if a non-Jewish Arab-Israeli citizen marries a non-Jewish and non-Israeli woman then his spouse will never obtain citizenship even though he is a citizen of Israel and all Israeli citizens are supposed to have "equal rights." (Israeli members please correct me if I have been misinformed)

However, I think the new "black" in Israel will soon be (if they are not already are) the Messianic Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3sEBAldf4L0
http://www.youtube.com/v/EII5Km3jN3U

It is quite logical to be against any group that "threatens" the existence of a "Jewish" state, combine this with anti-missionary laws I think it's only a matter of time before Messianic Jews become the new "African-Americans" sorry I couldn't resist :)

[Fifth Business]

French Hill doesn't surprise me, Pisgat Zeev does; I remember the brouhaha when it was established. I'm by no means implying a racist agenda, rather that the sociological and social fabric of Israel is very complicated, for the most part works, but shouldn't lull anyone into thinking its nirvana. Abu-Ghosh to Kiryat Anavim or Ma'ale HaHamisha is a socio-economic case-study waiting to happen, and I'd venture that most of the problems in Abu-Ghosh are socio-economic and family as opposed to racism and exclusion. But their humous is excellent.

I knew a Palestinian Christian that came from the French Hill as a child he and his family were run out of the Area right after the 1967 War. They were offered Israeli citzenship but they rejected it cause there own community would have killed them. They ended up settling in Canada. When I visited French Hill (I think were thinking of the same place, adjacent to Mt Scopus) I found the area was full of tolerance and rather enjoyable. The locals just might of assumed I was jewish though. Jerusalem as whole is an interesting socio-economic case study.

[bababooey]

Wow. Very interesting videos. Thanks. I'll be reading up on this more.

[RoyB]

If the Arab is Jewish, he's good. If he's not Jewish...well it is "Israel" after all? :-)
Even the Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab countries don't refer to themselves as 'Arabs'.
I don't think you quite get whom the term 'Israeli-Arabs' refers to.

For instance if a non-Jewish Arab-Israeli citizen marries a non-Jewish and non-Israeli woman then his spouse will never obtain citizenship even though he is a citizen of Israel and all Israeli citizens are supposed to have "equal rights."
This is not true.

However, I think the new "black" in Israel will soon be (if they are not already are) the Messianic Jews.
Most people don't give a damn, and don't even know about Messianic Jews. Other than religious nutjobs, nobody else tends to bother them.

[Ordie]

Interesting posts overall.

I've known several Hebrew Roman Catholic parishes in Israel for several years. And many of the "Conversos" from Latin America continuing attending Roman Catholic Mass while re-discovering their Jewish Traditions.

The challenge for Israel is how to balance the existance of a Democractic Jewish State that includes Non-Jewish Citizens within the context of a globalized community within Israel. By that I'm talking about non-Jewish immigrants with Israeli born and raised children.

[gilgoul]

Can we be a little more honest with ourselves here, please? Segev is actually an excellent historian, who digs into resources that are first becoming available in the last decade, or have been deliberately avoided by other mainstream historians. He's not an Avi Shlaim or Ilan Pappe, but he knows there are Zionist/Jewish warts that should be shown and discussed. I don't agree with all of his analysis, conclusions and the motivations he ascribes to the actors, but I don't see him as a revisionist historian.

As for Israeli Arabs; on paper that can do lots of things that in reality they may not be able to do. Yes they get to start school early but on the other hand how many of the best professions are limited by a requirement at having served or needing a certain security clearance? How many positions and businesses are products of relationships established and forged while sering? Same thing with housing and communities. Can't imagine most Arabs being able to move to Tivon or Modi'in, or me being able to move to Abu Ghosh, Baka al-Gharbia, or Daliat (a Druze town.) I think much of this is natural, but let's not pretend that the playing field is entirely level, and that we all cheerfully wave to each other across our fences. I think Israel is about where the US was in 1970 vis-a-vis "race" relations, but for very different reasons.


X12, except the free pass to Tom Segev.

I know pretty "leftist" tel avivians who won't hire arabs for whatever reason they choose.
But on the other hand, try to be a Jew hired by an Arab in Baq'a.
There are discriminations, and as Kaplan said, we shouldn't hide our faces about that, but the post by Segev was outrageous in that it surfs on a bad bad wave, and it adds "credibility" to a growing tendency to compare Israel to Pre-civil rights Alabama or Apartheid South Africa.

For a society at war, I would say that the Israeli society remains pretty sane and decent as a whole, and I won't make historical comparaisons to not hurt anyone.

[Kaplanr]

Too many subtexts here to keep it all straight, but you fall off your horse with the "...if the Arab is Jewish..." line. If he's Jewish, then he's not an Arab - period. He or she, or more likely their parents now may be from Arab countries, and their cultural affiliations may have more in common with Lebanon than Lichtenstein, but they were never Arabs. This whole "the new African-Americans" argument is kind of stupid, the historical roots and sources and presence of all the parties in israel both Arab and Jew, doesn't parallel the black experience in America at all. No slavery, no people as property and for all the tension, no lynching or governmental Jim Crow.

As for the Messianics, pretty interesting. Who would i rather be stuck in an elevator (or bunker) with, them or the black hats? They win hands down,but conceptually IMHO, you can be Israeli and believe in Jesus, but you can't be Jewish. Theologically it's not logical.


From what I have read and gathered in conversations about Israel it seems to me that there may not be de jure discrimination against Arab Israelis but there is de facto discrimination against them in Israel. In my opinion the common denominator on whether or not an Arab will be discriminated or not is his or her religious identification. If the Arab is Jewish, he's good. If he's not Jewish...well it is "Israel" after all? :-)

[realityexists]

Even the Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab countries don't refer to themselves as 'Arabs'.
I don't think you quite get whom the term 'Israeli-Arabs' refers to.Interesting. Thanks for the info, so I assume that "Israeli-Arabs" refers to "Muslims" or Christian or any non-Jewish "Arab?"


This is not true.So a non-Jewish Arab-Israeli citizen can marry a non-Jewish spouse and the spouse can obtain Israeli citizenship? Cool thanks for the info, because I was widely misinformed in that aspect.


Most people don't give a damn, and don't even know about Messianic Jews. Other than religious nutjobs, nobody else tends to bother them.


Too many subtexts here to keep it all straight, but you fall off your horse with the "...if the Arab is Jewish..." line. If he's Jewish, then he's not an Arab - period. He or she, or more likely their parents now may be from Arab countries, and their cultural affiliations may have more in common with Lebanon than Lichtenstein, but they were never Arabs. This whole "the new African-Americans" argument is kind of stupid, the historical roots and sources and presence of all the parties in israel both Arab and Jew, doesn't parallel the black experience in America at all. No slavery, no people as property and for all the tension, no lynching or governmental Jim Crow.Well I think RoyB clarified the "Arab-Israeli" term, howewver, I do find that a lot of these conversations about Israel sometimes come to the topic of "Jewishness"


As for the Messianics, pretty interesting. Who would i rather be stuck in an elevator (or bunker) with, them or the black hats? They win hands down,but conceptually IMHO, you can be Israeli and believe in Jesus, but you can't be Jewish. Theologically it's not logical.I think a conservative commentator Ann Coulter got into some controversy when she called Christians "perfected Jews" so I think theologically it may be "logical" :D

All in all the OP of new "African-American" label not appropriate in my opinion for similar reasons that you have mentioned (I was being facetious in using it with the Messianic Jews comment), but also Israeli society and governemnt is quite different than American society. For instance (correct me if I am wrong) I did not know up until a few weeks ago that Israel does not have a Constitution. I always assumed that it did. Assumptions = troublemakers! :)

[Ordie]

^^^^
I think we're splitting hairs on the definition.

To me both Jews and Arabs are semetic people with a common background.

Overall:

Not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews.
Just as not all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs.

[bababooey]

I don't know about that. Jesus was born a jew who fought against the hippocracy of jewish scholars. I'm a catholic and I don't care for the catholic heirarchy. Does that mean I am not a catholic?

[Ordie]

I don't know about that. Jesus was born a jew who fought against the hippocracy of jewish scholars. I'm a catholic and I don't care for the catholic heirarchy. Does that mean I am not a catholic?

If Jesus was a Jew, does that mean that all Christans are half Jewish?

Instead of rationalizing on the definitions to keep that status quo. Israel should adopt a secular policy on citizenship on the premise of allowing anyone the option of conversion from whatever branch of Judaism. No exception shall be given for conscription.

[JordanN]

However, I think the new "black" in Israel will soon be (if they are not already are) the Messianic Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3sEBAldf4L0
http://www.youtube.com/v/EII5Km3jN3U

It is quite logical to be against any group that "threatens" the existence of a "Jewish" state, combine this with anti-missionary laws I think it's only a matter of time before Messianic Jews become the new "African-Americans" sorry I couldn't resist :)
Lol, Messianic Jews. They're a living oxymoron who in retrospect, are Christians and not in fact Jews (Christian theology conflicts with that of Jewish doctrine).

And lol at the Orthodox. They persecute anyone who doesn't confine to their standards.

[California Joe]

Ordieganda will do pretty much everything thing he can in order to portray Israel as a tyranical, opressive, dictatorial and racist state.

Hey sh*thead, when you start posting anything of f*cking value on this forum then feel free to criticize. Until then shut it. He also posts a lot of "f*ck you China" and "Illegal Messicans? What illegal Messicans" threads, I don't agree with all of them either. But if I have to read a thread from Wimbly everytime Obama takes a dump and the media doesn't cover it to his satisfaction then you can suck it up.



Maybe the Arabs should get really good at basketball or rap music.

[Glaz]

Maybe the Arabs should get really good at basketball or rap music.
They already have their [c]rap music.

[bababooey]

If Jesus was a Jew, does that mean that all Christans are half Jewish?

Instead of rationalizing on the definitions to keep that status quo. Israel should adopt a secular policy on citizenship on the premise of allowing anyone the option of conversion from whatever branch of Judaism. No exception shall be given for conscription.

I agree.

I was responding to "realityexists". I should have specified. My bad. Your point is well taken.

[Kaplanr]

On the hierarchy of the church, I'd say (go forth my son...) your're still a Catholic. But what happens if or when your position on God and the Trinity changes, or cut to the chase - you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah?


I don't know about that. Jesus was born a jew who fought against the hippocracy of jewish scholars. I'm a catholic and I don't care for the catholic heirarchy. Does that mean I am not a catholic?

Ordie, Yeah we're all Semites, but it's like saying Brooklyn Americans share the same cultural affiliations and idiosyncrasies as Texans (except maybe fandom for the Cowboys cheerleaders.) Same, but different.

[Flamming_Python]

This is really a bad comparison.

Arabs with voting rights would overwhelm the Israeli system and the safety of Jews. Black Americans were simply put aside by a racist/immature society, not for the risk their rights represented to the United States as a whole.

I doubt he's talking about them. Try to think a little.

If blacks were around in such numbers in America as they were in South Africa or Arabs are in the Middle East; there would have been people like you saying the same thing in the US. Until that point the US was very much a white, European state much as Israel is now a Jewish state. Now whatever the number of blacks/Arabs/whoever actually makes no difference; solution in both cases is to create a society which is of as much one people's as any other. For Israel that would mean a sort of Middle Eastern republic of both Jews and Muslims. Rights can be guaranteed for all citizens with strong constitution and civil society.

[11 Bravo]

Sounds like californican joe tilts left these days..eeeww!

[Sootan]

If blacks were around in such numbers in America as they were in South Africa or Arabs are in the Middle East; there would have been people like you saying the same thing in the US. Until that point the US was very much a white, European state much as Israel is now a Jewish state. Now whatever the number of blacks/Arabs/whoever actually makes no difference; solution in both cases is to create a society which is of as much one people's as any other. For Israel that would mean a sort of Middle Eastern republic of both Jews and Muslims. Rights can be guaranteed for all citizens with strong constitution and civil society.
But then Israel would stop being a Jewish country, now wouldn't it?

[Hollis]

Sounds like californican joe tilts left these days..eeeww!


Naw, just the anti-****head reaction. Happens to all MODs here. I am going through the anti-****head chairborne operator reaction.

[Cabalabro]

But then Israel would stop being a Jewish country, now wouldn't it?

And what is more shocking Israel will become Israeli country!!!!!11111oneoneone Oh teh horror!

[the_Wicked]

As for Israeli Arabs; on paper that can do lots of things that in reality they may not be able to do. Yes they get to start school early but on the other hand how many of the best professions are limited by a requirement at having served or needing a certain security clearance? How many positions and businesses are products of relationships established and forged while sering? Same thing with housing and communities. Can't imagine most Arabs being able to move to Tivon or Modi'in, or me being able to move to Abu Ghosh, Baka al-Gharbia, or Daliat (a Druze town.) I think much of this is natural, but let's not pretend that the playing field is entirely level, and that we all cheerfully wave to each other across our fences. I think Israel is about where the US was in 1970 vis-a-vis "race" relations, but for very different reasons.

Yet on the third hand so to speak, many universities have corrective action in place, so an Arab has an easier time than a Jew at being accepted to study.

[the_Wicked]

And what is more shocking Israel will become Israeli country!!!!!11111oneoneone Oh teh horror!

Every nationality has the right for self-determination, period.

More importantly, Israel was partially established to ensure no second Holocaust comes to pass, by giving Jews control over their own fates after 2000 years of everybody and their mother kicking them around at will. So yeah, it would be a ****ing horror to become a second-class citizen in your own country. Thank you but no think you, let the PC-tards be offended.

[Sumadinac]

Instead of rationalizing on the definitions to keep that status quo. Israel should adopt a secular policy on citizenship on the premise of allowing anyone the option of conversion from whatever branch of Judaism. No exception shall be given for conscription.

LOL

Your wisdom is so great that your can even give advices to israeli about what they should do or not.. awesome.


Seriously, it sounds like a great plan.. that would probably works very fine :)

[Telmar]

If blacks were around in such numbers in America as they were in South Africa or Arabs are in the Middle East; there would have been people like you saying the same thing in the US. Until that point the US was very much a white, European state much as Israel is now a Jewish state. Now whatever the number of blacks/Arabs/whoever actually makes no difference; solution in both cases is to create a society which is of as much one people's as any other. For Israel that would mean a sort of Middle Eastern republic of both Jews and Muslims. Rights can be guaranteed for all citizens with strong constitution and civil society.

I understand what you are saying. But Israel is "by design" a Jewish State. Without disrespect to the history of the first Jewish nations, there is something artifical about modern Israel and that is the way it was intended to be.

[Sumadinac]

And what is more shocking Israel will become Israeli country!!!!!11111oneoneone Oh teh horror!

The question would not arise if there were as many Jewish states as Christian or Muslim states, which is not the case for israel. This state was born again (only thanks to the jews themselves that fought and die for) precisely because Jews were no longer sovereigns since 2000 years, so it seems to me essential that Israel retains its particularity of Jewish state first and foremost, and on the other hand, that's also the reason why I'm absolutely favorable to the creation of a Palestinian state.

The Jews, that have a single country, can not afford the luxury of assimilation or multiculturalism, because it could be fatal to their unique country. Only the enemies of israel does not include such a thing, or at least pretend not to understand, because the anxiety and the willingness of the Jews to preserve the Jewish aspect of israel seems perfectly understandable and legitimate.

[RoyB]

And what is more shocking Israel will become Israeli country!!!!!11111oneoneone Oh teh horror!
Israel is already an 'Israeli country', just as the Spain is a 'Spanish country' and so forth.
There's no point in trying to build up a nation for both people, considering that both people don't want to live together in one country and rightfully so. Not to mention that it will just be like taking a crap on everything the people who built this country(Israel) believed in. No more Jewish state? Than what the hell are we doing here?

[Rudolph]

Great thread. Thanks for the honesty from the Israeli members, you guys pretty much said what I wanted to hear. It takes a while, but the urban areas in SA have changed a lot during the last 2 decades, and as people realise those with equal education can do the job as well as you can, things naturally fall into place.

[Sootan]

The question would not arise if there were as many Jewish states as Christian or Muslim states, which is not the case for israel. This state was born again (only thanks to the jews thelselves that fought and die for) precisely because Jews were no longer sovereigns since 2000 years, so it seems to me essential that Israel retains its particularity of Jewish state first and foremost, and on the other hand, that's also the reason why I'm absolutely favorable to the creation of a Palestinian state.

The Jews, that have a single country, can not afford the luxury of assimilation or multiculturalism, because it could be fatal to their unique country. Only the enemies of israel does not include such a thing, or at least pretend not to understand, because the anxiety and the willingness of the Jews to preserve the Jewish aspect of israel seems perfectly understandable and legitimate.

And somehow 'the only true democracy in the ME' could fit in there somewhere.

[RoyB]

And somehow 'the only true democracy in the ME' could fit in there somewhere.
It already fits.