China tells U.S. to stop military contact with Taiwan

[2RHPZ]

PRC tells U.S. to stop military contact with Taiwan

2004-07-24 / Agence France-Presse /

Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing yesterday told the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific that military exchanges with Taiwan must stop, given the "seriousness" of the cross-strait standoff.

"The United States should clearly understand the seriousness and sensitivity of the Taiwan situation," Li told Admiral Thomas Fargo, commander-in-chief of the US Pacific Command, who is in Beijing for talks.

"Only in so doing can the steady development of Sino-U.S. relations and peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait be maintained," he said according to the Xinhua news agency.

Li said arms sales to Taiwan should be halted and the U.S. must "stop its relevant military exchanges aiming to upgrade the substantial relationship with Taiwan," according to Xinhua.

Fargo responded that the United States, regarding China as its partner, had "noted" the Chinese concerns on the Taiwan issue, the agency reported.

"President Bush has reiterated time and again that the United States will stick to the one-China policy," Fargo was quoted as saying, referring to Beijing's position that there is only one China, and Taiwan is part of China.

Fargo is in China to meet with senior defense officials just days after the State Department urged China and Taiwan to ensure military exercises both sides are conducting are not provocative.

His trip follows a visit to Beijing by National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, whose talks with China's leaders were dominated by Taiwan.

China has been training 18,000 troops on Dongshan Island 150 nautical miles west of Taiwan and large-scale joint sea, land and air drills in the area were imminent, the pro-Beijing Wen Wei Po newspaper said yesterday.

Earlier reports in Beijing-backed Hong Kong newspapers said the war games had already started.

Wen Wei Po, long used as mouthpiece for China's saber-rattling towards Taiwan, said the drill was named "212 project trial" and would showcase nearly all of China's advanced weapons.

Beijing has said it would use the exercise to demonstrate its ability to dominate air space over Taiwan, an essential element in any invasion.

The paper added that "tens of thousands" of troops were participating in a separate military exercise in the seas around Zhangzhou port, also in Fujian province, in which a large quantity of civilian ships have been commissioned.

The United States has remained the leading arms supplier to Taiwan despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979, and China is becoming increasingly edgy over U.S. military strategy in the region, observers say.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Military conducts heavy artillery exercise

http://www.etaiwannews.com/news_images/20040722/p1-2.jpg
Taiwan's army holds live-fire artillery exercises as part of the annual Han Kuang, or Chinese Glory, war games in the southern county of Pingtung yesterday.(*******)

Taiwan staged live-fire cannon exercises yesterday, continuing major annual military maneuvers coinciding with large scale wargames reportedly being conducted by rival China.

The anti-landing drill on the southwestern coast involved firing at targets seven kilometers off the coast. Some 450 troops joined the exercise, which is part of the annual Hankuang maneuvers spanning three months until the end of August to demonstrate Taiwan's readiness in the event of an attack from China.

On Thursday around 5,000 Taiwanese troops joined exercises on the island's southern coast simulating an attempt to repel a beach landing, involving armored vehicles and around 300 paratroopers.

Yesterday's heavy artillery exercise took place near Checheng township in Pingtung County.

The live-fire drill was designed to test the functioning of 13 M110A2 self-propelled artillery pieces and 14 8-inch towed howitzers, and their ability to hit targets off the coast as part of an anti-amphibious attack, a military spokesman said.

The two artillery models used in the drills that began at 8 a.m. and ran through noon are the main artillery pieces employed by the army.

On Wednesday, two French-built Mirage fighters landed on a highway in southern Tainan, where they were refueled and loaded with short-range air-to-air missiles before taking to the skies again.

The air force said the exercise was to "review the air force's capability in using freeways for emergency landings and logistic support in case of war."

The recent spate of local military drills come at a time when China is set to launch an exercise near its Dongshan Island, 150 nautical miles west of Taiwan, to display its air supremacy in the Taiwan Strait amid political tension between the two sides.

[2RHPZ]

Chinese Military Drills Imminent, Newspaper Says

China will soon begin large-scale sea, land and air exercises in the seas of its southern provinces, showcasing its most advanced weapons, a pro-Beijing newspaper reported July 23.

Some 18,000 troops have been training on Dongshan Island, 150 nautical miles west of Taiwan, and they will “in the coming days” participate in the drills between the southern provinces of Fujian and Guangdong, the Wen Wei Po said.

Previous reports from Beijing-backed Hong Kong newspapers said the war games had already started.

Quoting unidentified sources, the paper, long favored by Beijing for its saber-rattling towards Taiwan, said the exercises would be known as “212 project trial.”

They will showcase nearly all of the Chinese military’s advance weapons, including Sukoi Su-27 fighter jets, the FBC-1 “Fei Bao” (Flying Jaguar) indigenous fighter-bomber and the Il-76 jet transport aircraft, it said.

Also involved will be WZ-9 attack helicopters, the “Xiandai” (Modern) destroyer, the Kilo Class Diesel-Electric Submarine and the Dongfeng 15 Tactical Missile.

“Sukoi Su-27 fighter jets will be outfitted with KN59M guided air-to-surface missiles to shield the tank brigades in making a landing and engage in warfare,” the report said.

Although the troop size in the annual exercise is not the biggest in recent years, the significance is that “the determined target is for the first time the securing of the air control of the Taiwan Straits.”

The exercises will be presided over by senior officials of the Central Military Commission and the Fujian and Guangdong military.

Separately, tens of thousands of troops were participating in another military drill July 23 in the seas around Zhangzhou port in Fujian province, the report added.

The Fujian port was closed for five hours, and many civilian ships have been commissioned in the exercise, it said.

Taiwan, meanwhile, staged live-fire cannon exercises July 23, continuing it’s major annual military maneuvers.

The anti-landing drill on the southwestern coast involved firing at targets seven kilometers off the coast.

Some 450 troops had joined the exercise, which is part of the annual Han Guang maneuvers — continuing through the end of August — to demonstrate Taiwan’s readiness in the event of an attack from China.

On July 22, about 5,000 Taiwanese troops, including armored vehicles and about 300 paratroopers, joined exercises on the island’s southern coast, simulating an attempt to repel a beach landing.

China has recently stepped up its rhetoric against Taiwan, warning pro-independence forces it has the military strength to invade the island.

Tension between Beijing and Taipei has been heightened since Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian was re-elected this year, with China fearful his pro-independence moves were aimed at gaining formal independence.

Beijing has regarded Taiwan as a renegade province that must be reunified, by force if necessary, since the Communists won a civil war and drove the defeated Nationalists into exile on the island in 1949.

[moughoun]

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Rakki]

If China keeps insisting on laying its balls on the table in a challenge to freedom and democracy, it's gonna get trod on.

[abncougar]

the US has sworn to protect taiwan against a chinese invasion, but that would be stupid for china to do, doesnt make sense. they have economic treaties with the US that help themselves, why risk it?

[Ballistic]

Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.

[Herrmannek]

Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.
They want nationalize Taiwans buisneses, mount there their people and live to the end of their days in luxury having 72 virigins much faster than after heroic death in fight for real socialism caused by artherial sclerosis ... :)

[achilles]

Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.

Good questions but your suggestion cannot be that simple. Taiwan is a strong economic center undertaking a good chunk of the production that takes place in Asia. China wouldnt want to loose that.
Also, dont forget Taiwan's geographic location. It is a very important geopolitical location because it is practically the best path towards the sea. If china looses Taiwan it is in a sense isolated.
Last but not least...chinese people have this feeling of 'blood ties' with Taiwan and they dont want it by any means to be detached. Their 'government' shares the same feeling but for them is a good propaganda tool. I think those reasons are enough for China to stick to the Taiwan issue although i believe in independence and self-determination. But this is the real world we live in....

[Pille1234]

Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.
Why don't the Russians give up Chechenia? Why don't the Serbs want to give up Kosovo?

[Tengu]

Hehehe, looks like chinese leaders are in the comedy business


Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.
Why don't the Russians give up Chechenia? Yes why wouldn't the russians want a islamic terror state next door?? :roll:

[Pille1234]

Hehehe, looks like chinese leaders are in the comedy business

Why don't the Russians give up Chechenia? Yes why wouldn't the russians want a islamic terror state next door?? :roll:
That is what it has become today. In the beginning this was just a typical battle about independence.

[ShotOver]

Sorry yanks, better stand down. There are more of them, then there are of you.

[Operation Ivy]

Sorry yanks, better stand down. There are more of them, then there are of you.

that doesnt mean everything buddy

[ShotOver]

Yeah, wasnt trying to be a prick.

But can you lot really keep up the big tough bloke stance on everything? your military is very widley stretched.

[Hellman109]

CHina should help Taiwan delclare independence, as then the US wont defend them...

Arent there 7 CBG's off the chinese coast ATM anyhow? you dont wanna push was with that sort of firepower aimed at you...

[Ballistic]

Why does China so desperately need Taiwan under it's control ? Are they that desperate for land ? :roll: Why dont they just give it up, both the island and their pathetic squabble over such a petty and ridiculous situation.

Good questions but your suggestion cannot be that simple. Taiwan is a strong economic center undertaking a good chunk of the production that takes place in Asia. China wouldnt want to loose that.
Also, dont forget Taiwan's geographic location. It is a very important geopolitical location because it is practically the best path towards the sea. If china looses Taiwan it is in a sense isolated.
Last but not least...chinese people have this feeling of 'blood ties' with Taiwan and they dont want it by any means to be detached. Their 'government' shares the same feeling but for them is a good propaganda tool. I think those reasons are enough for China to stick to the Taiwan issue although i believe in independence and self-determination. But this is the real world we live in....

Thanks, I wasnt all that up to date on the reasons for this situation there.

[BadKarma26]

There is no hiding that our military is stretched. That is why if the North Koreans invade South Korea, or if China invades Taiwan, tactical nukes will be used. We don't have the troops to stop an invasion from either nation. This situation is similar to that in Eastern/Western Europe in the 50s and 60s; A Soviet invasion would have quickly overwhelmed the troops we had stationed there but would also start a nuclear exchange. (Which niether nation wanted)

[walford]

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38d6500918fe.htm

(1) Historical mission. National independence and reunification has remained the sole purpose of China's revolutionary movement throughout this century…

(2) Taiwan issue has resulted from the Civil War and has never ceased to be an internal affair. The founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949 symbolised the decisive victory of the revolutionary cause of the Chinese people on the Mainland.

(3) We must create a complete image of a big country…our country was able to regain its sovereignty over Hong Kong and Macao without resorting to war, which not only washed away the national humiliation since the Opium War, but also set the first example of ending the colonial rule with peaceful means in the world history. However, as long as Taiwan has not returned to the motherland, the unified image will remain incomplete, which is not only an emotional trauma for the Chinese people, but an issue involving the dignity of our country…

(4) The damage to our country's interests and dignity. In the international political struggle, Taiwan issue has long since become a trump card by the anti-China forces and deteriorated into a malicious tumor that hinder the development of our motherland…

(5) An obstacle to diplomatic relations. … the Taiwan authorities have been engaged in money diplomacy, capitalizing on the economic difficulties of a number of small and weak countries and using money as baits to induce and infiltrate some countries which have had long-standing relationships with our country...because of Taiwan issue, when it comes to territorial disputes and effective protection of the interests of overseas Chinese, we have to consider many different factors and engage in tradeoffs. Consequently, some countries refuse to behave properly; on the contrary, they use their intermittent relations with Taiwan as bargaining chips when dealing with us, seriously harming the interests and reputation of our country.

(6) Taiwan issue directly affects the solidarity of different nationalities within our country and constitutes the most serious hidden problem that could endanger the very existence of the Chinese nation…

The PRC cannot suffer to live with a Chinese nation that is not subject to its control. As far as the Chinese Communist Party is concerned, economic competition cannot be tolerated. Chinese and other ethnic groups on the mainland must not have the example of an independent nation with limited representative government.

Given the technological advances [especially in missile technology] that the People's Liberation Army enjoyed during the '90s, the PRC is that much closer to attaining the objective. The recent launch of an advanced attack sub gives an indication of the long-range intentions.

It does not want to conquer its neighbors, but China aspires to be the foremost regional power. Countries like Japan and Korea would be Finlandized in such a scenario, making all political/economic decisions based upon perceived Chinese wants.

To attain this, all China needs to be capable of is to inflict sufficient damage on American naval power and have a wimp in the White House. They do not want an all-out war with the US -- they are hoping to say, sink a carrier [or at least show they can with some sort of demonstration]. They have every reason to expect the ever-ready American 'peace movement' to mobilize, arguing that evil capitalist Taiwan is not worth spilling blood over.

The PRC leadership is methodically preparing for this final objective to take place and is tentatively prepared to attack Taiwan within the next 15 years.

China took keen interest in how the USSR collapsed and are resolved not to do the same. They have completely abandoned Marxism. The PRC is now a one-party fascist state that is using nationalism [rather than ideology] to condition its populace toward the inevitability of war.

I believe that they will eventually succeed.

The free world's will to survive [much less the will to grow and prosper] deteriorates with each passing day. If we continue on this path, our civilization as we know it will fall by the end of the century.

Have a nice day :D

[biritsuee]

no war, i hope

[BlackRain]

no war, i hope

From your mouth to God's ears!

[perdurabo]

There is no hiding that our military is stretched. That is why if the North Koreans invade South Korea, or if China invades Taiwan, tactical nukes will be used. We don't have the troops to stop an invasion from either nation. This situation is similar to that in Eastern/Western Europe in the 50s and 60s; A Soviet invasion would have quickly overwhelmed the troops we had stationed there but would also start a nuclear exchange. (Which niether nation wanted)
but is NK would invade SK other countries would send their troops France and Germany have few spare. Dont know about Taiwan prabably would be left alone :(

[Ratamacue]

Yeah, wasnt trying to be a prick.

But can you lot really keep up the big tough bloke stance on everything? your military is very widley stretched.
The US's main support to Taiwan would probably be wiping out any Chinese invasion fleet via air and sea assets. Large numbers of ground troops probably wouldn't be necessary.

[BadKarma26]

How long would would a Chinese invasion force take to reach Taiwan?

[Merik]

How long would would a Chinese invasion force take to reach Taiwan?


Less than 12 hours I suppose. Taiwan is not that far from the coast of mainland China.

[Kilgor]

The whole world to china : STFU and stop supporting north korea.

:bash:

:cantbeli:

[aartamen]

Basically it's killing them that there are Chinese out there that are not under their control. They can't do much about ABC's (thanks to whoever introduced that abbrev.) but Taiwan is right under their nose. And they just can't sleep at night until they have it.

[Mongrel]

I have a bad feeling about this. :roll:

M.

[achilles]

How long would would a Chinese invasion force take to reach Taiwan?


Less than 12 hours I suppose. Taiwan is not that far from the coast of mainland China.

From what i know China has a few hundred missiles near the coastline, turned at Taiwan and you can be sure that they are not there for purposes of defense. Therefore a strike can take place within minutes. Now in order to have an actual 'invasion' i would go with the 'less than 12 hours' scenario. Taking Taiwan is only a matter of decision for China. If you ask me... in order to win a potential future 'war' China doesnt even have to invade the island. Missiles can do the job...fast and clean...

[aartamen]

Conventional warheads? Won't do crap.

[achilles]

Conventional warheads? Won't do crap.

As conventional as the warheads used by the US in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan....not the same but with 'decent' firepower.

[Mongrel]

Doesn't make sense to destroy industry, and infrastucture if ones goal is to take over a place for its economics, and wealth.

Free Tibet!
M.

[achilles]

Doesn't make sense to destroy industry, and infrastucture if ones goal is to take over a place for its economics, and wealth.

Free Tibet!
M.

Why does it have to be this way? They can just shoot at selected targets, enough to completely disable the already small and weak Taiwanese defense mechanism. They can save industry and infrastructure for later....

And yeah...Free Tibet.

[duck]

Free Sakhalin!
Free former Chinese East Siberia!
Free the Senkaku/Diadiouy Islands!
Free Tokto/Takeshima Island!
Free the autonomous regions of the Russian Far East!
Free the Kurile Islands!
Free the Kingdom of Hawai!
Free Kashmir!
Free Tahiti!
Free New Caledonia!
Free Australia and New Zealand from colonial rule!

And that's just the beginning... ;)

[Kilgor]

Taiwan might be "small and weak" in some peoples minds but your forgetting the basics.

A small rugged island is just made for defence. And sure the chinese army is modernising, but its troops and tanks cant walk and float across water.

[achilles]

Taiwan might be "small and weak" in some peoples minds but your forgetting the basics.

A small rugged island is just made for defence. And sure the chinese army is modernising, but its troops and tanks cant walk and float across water.

If you are suggesting that Taiwan stands even a chance in a war with China...well...lets say that this is not a very likely scenario

[ronin2172]

There is no hiding that our military is stretched. That is why if the North Koreans invade South Korea, or if China invades Taiwan, tactical nukes will be used. We don't have the troops to stop an invasion from either nation. This situation is similar to that in Eastern/Western Europe in the 50s and 60s; A Soviet invasion would have quickly overwhelmed the troops we had stationed there but would also start a nuclear exchange. (Which niether nation wanted)
not necessarily true....yes the army is overstreched...but they would not b used in this instance...the US Navy is more than enough to keep china at bay or to make them pay a high price for an invasion (hence ex summer pulse)...china's current amphib capability is low...Korea is a whole nother situation...NK doesn't have to plan and execute an amphibious op...and worry bout carrier battle groups and 688 class subs...and those that happen to get on Taiwan would have little to no support...and facing a well trained and motivated force defending home soil...pity the PRC soldier(s) in that situation

[Kilgor]

Taiwan might be "small and weak" in some peoples minds but your forgetting the basics.

A small rugged island is just made for defence. And sure the chinese army is modernising, but its troops and tanks cant walk and float across water.

If you are suggesting that Taiwan stands even a chance in a war with China...well...lets say that this is not a very likely scenario

What I am saying is that the Taiwanese have a definite advantage in defending a rocky small Island.

[Mudcat]

How long would would a Chinese invasion force take to reach Taiwan?

Think the question is CAN they make it.

I'm sure the Carrier Battle Groups and SSNs will make life dificult for them. :lol:

[Bayonet]

CHina should help Taiwan delclare independence, as then the US wont defend them...

...


But we chinese do not want to solve Taiwan issue in a military way....

[jmatucd]

right, the chinese just want to convert it to a communist dictatorship

last I checked, we fought many wars against the Soviets over this very same thing.

And we will fight again.


Our navy is more than adequate to destroy a Chinese invasion force to the point of defeat. If they want to go nuclear, then they can try :) If they attack our carrier groups, our bombers will come into play.... our bombers come into play and we escalate to 'Chinese defeat' (granted the price for the US would be in the millions; but the Chinese would ultimately lose)

[rodin_hsu]

little to no support...and facing a well trained and motivated force defending home soil...pity the PRC soldier(s) in that situation

If you are a Taiwanese in Japan, I can understand your stance. However, if you are a Japanese. I would suggest you don't touch this issue because that would be very flammable and provocative to Chinese.

One important reason that China must take back Taiwan is about the sense of race dignity. If you guys know Chinese history after 17th centry, you will see how Chinese suffer the bully and humiliation from oversea. At that time, many districts of China had been ceded to other countries. Hong Kong is one of them. Foreigners were free from Chinese jurisdiction if they committed a crime in China.

Taiwan was ceded to Japan after the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895). Chinese government (ROC) took it back after World War II (1945). Even until now, many pro-indepence Taiwanese speak Japanese and sympathy with Japan's war crime in WWII.

It is just like somebody who suffer violence or humiliation when he/she is weak or in childhood. He/she got a wound in his/her mind. He/she swear he/she will take back whatever belongs to him/her as long as he/she can.

Therefore, Taiwan problem is not only about national benefit or strategy to China. It also includes some psychological factors. So China can pay the price that US don't want to pay for Taiwan.

[aartamen]

Over Taiwan!?

[walford]

China can pay the price that US don't want to pay for Taiwan.
Thank you. All of these discussions of comparative military capability are not as important as comparative WILL. Please see my post on p.2 of this thread.

[Mongrel]

rodin_hsu wrote:
"It is just like somebody who suffer violence or humiliation when he/she is weak or in childhood. He/she got a wound in his/her mind. He/she swear he/she will take back whatever belongs to him/her as long as he/she can."

MH: Well that's it then isn't it...send China's leaders off for group therapy with Dr.Phil. rofl

I'm sure a war will happen sooner or later, and its going to be ugly.
I just hope China gets so weakened by it that places like Mongolia, and Tibet boot them out.
Dare to dream...

Cheers!
M.

[rodin_hsu]

rodin_hsu wrote:
"he/she will take back whatever belongs to him/her as long as he/she can."

MH: Well that's it then isn't it...send China's leaders off for group therapy with Dr.Phil. rofl

I'm sure a war will happen sooner or later, and its going to be ugly.
I just hope China gets so weakened by it that places like Mongolia, and Tibet boot them out.
Dare to dream...
Cheers!
M.

Thanks! You are so kind.
Hope that is not the value you want to protect around the world.

[Mongrel]

WTF?
:cantbeli:

M.

[Ballistic]

CHina should help Taiwan delclare independence, as then the US wont defend them...

...


But we chinese do not want to solve Taiwan issue in a military way....

You could have fooled me.

[Mongrel]

Bayonet wrote:
"But we chinese do not want to solve Taiwan issue in a military way"

rofl
Your kidding right?

Cheers!
M.

[rodin_hsu]

But we chinese do not want to solve Taiwan issue in a military way....

You could have fooled me.

It would be ideal to Chinese if Taiwan and China can reunify peacefully.
Or at least, keep status quo for a while until China becomes a developed country.

Unfortunatelly, things are getting worse. And the intervention from US makes it complicated.

[aartamen]

Yes, very complicated. Not straightforward at all. Very difficult in fact.

[Sora]

Agree that US should stop military support to Taiwan just waste of money, if China open a full scale war against Tawian it will probably over within a week or two, or worst 2 missles outside Taipei and the president is on the plane...

[DPGLAW]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

[Merik]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?


When discussing the North Korea issue, the fact that we are stretched a little thin has nothing to do with it. Nukes have always been the weapon of choice and first option if the invade the South simply because of the numbers they have. Plus it would make it end a lot sooner.

[alscho]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

US should avoid nuke when possible.. It will get very serious when you nuke another nuclear-armed country.. Risk world wide condemnation etc etc.. Haha.. Some ppl will even say Americans ar racists, using the nukes only on East Asians :P

You mean, will a 2nd Korean war be created as a diversion up North..? Or NK will individually be opportunitic enough even to seize the moment..?

cheers

[ronin2172]

little to no support...and facing a well trained and motivated force defending home soil...pity the PRC soldier(s) in that situation

If you are a Taiwanese in Japan, I can understand your stance. However, if you are a Japanese. I would suggest you don't touch this issue because that would be very flammable and provocative to Chinese.

One important reason that China must take back Taiwan is about the sense of race dignity. If you guys know Chinese history after 17th centry, you will see how Chinese suffer the bully and humiliation from oversea. At that time, many districts of China had been ceded to other countries. Hong Kong is one of them. Foreigners were free from Chinese jurisdiction if they committed a crime in China.


Taiwan was ceded to Japan after the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895). Chinese government (ROC) took it back after World War II (1945). Even until now, many pro-indepence Taiwanese speak Japanese and sympathy with Japan's war crime in WWII.

It is just like somebody who suffer violence or humiliation when he/she is weak or in childhood. He/she got a wound in his/her mind. He/she swear he/she will take back whatever belongs to him/her as long as he/she can.

Therefore, Taiwan problem is not only about national benefit or strategy to China. It also includes some psychological factors. So China can pay the price that US don't want to pay for Taiwan.

what the hell is up with people assuming i'm japanese? Get a a f****in clue. And so what if i was japanease nothing i said in my post was flame bait. All i did was comment on the tactical situation the chinese military might find itself in if they invaded taiwan...please get your head out of your ass and read the damn post. I neither commented on why China would invade or if they r in the right to invde and to be honest your reasoning for china being justified is laughable....and for the record and for the last time I am African-American.....not japanese .....remember boys and girls when u assume u make an ASS out of U and ME

One more thing if u r going to quote my post...quote my entire post, and not just the part u feel validates your comment. Do not twist my words to make yourself look superior, that's just pathetic.

[SpikeATGM]

little to no support...and facing a well trained and motivated force defending home soil...pity the PRC soldier(s) in that situation

The way you comment shows u dunno much about the issue. PRC trooper are also highly motivated cause they believe they are fighting to a war of reunification.

On the otherhand, a recent poll conducted show about half the respondent believe that Taiwanese should not fight if war ever broke out as a result of Taiwan declaration of independence.

Many people in tAiwan are still pondering if they would really fight for the sake of ROT or ROC. This is a rather unique situation that you don't find it any where else.

[biritsuee]

i think this case is similar to korea in some points of view

[ronin2172]

i understand that....but if u reread my original post u would see what i am saying....if china was to invade taiwan it would be no easy thing...It's not like the two lands r connected by a land bridge....China would not b able to exercise her full military weight. Amphib ops are complicated at best and can easily go wrong for the most experienced militaries. China has no history of amphib ops (they haven't had the need to conduct one). So they r facing an island that has a well trained and (for the most part) well equipped military, with the possibility of erratic support at best for their assault troops. Look at WW2 the germans held all the cards over Britan yet they did not invade. While there was no garuntee either way on who would win, the germans knew it would be a high price, so they tried other ways to make the british submit. Your troops can be as well motivated as you want but if they have poor support they will lose. Logistics are the key for any invasion

And to those that say it would go nuclear think...if china wants to absorb Taiwan y would they want to turn it into a radioactive wasteland. The same goes for the US; if the US wanted to defend Taiwanese sovriegnity, laying waste to the island would b counterproductive. As long as the US Navy maintains a credible presence the Chinese will think twice before attemting anything.

As to whether the people of Taiwan support independance or not really doesn't matter because all of that will go out the window if Taiwan is invaded. Whether or not u agree with a ruling government on whatever policy are u willing to lose your political and economic freedoms by force of arms from a invader or are you willing to fight for the things you cherish and set aside any differences?

[DPGLAW]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

US should avoid nuke when possible.. It will get very serious when you nuke another nuclear-armed country.. Risk world wide condemnation etc etc.. Haha.. Some ppl will even say Americans ar racists, using the nukes only on East Asians :P

You mean, will a 2nd Korean war be created as a diversion up North..? Or NK will individually be opportunitic enough even to seize the moment..?

cheers

"Some people will say that we (US) are racist for using nukes on only Asian countries"....that has to take the cake for being one of the F'in dumbest things I have ever heard on this board....The use of nukes, or any other weapons system for that matter, is in no way, shape, or form, based on Racism.....I don't even see how you could come up with that theory....U should really think a little more before posting crap such as that. It is antagonistic and could end up starting a flame war, ehich we don't need so just think a little more before posting

[SpikeATGM]

Your troops can be as well motivated as you want but if they have poor support they will lose. Logistics are the key for any invasion

That is true. It a technical issue that PRC have to overcome. For as long as ROC can prevent PRC from landing, they win the war. But my opinion is that if PRC can open up a beach head, then it will be difficult to fight a land war with them.

BTW I am not from china. I never even been to china and never intend to. Full of uncivilise and rude people.


And to those that say it would go nuclear think...if china wants to absorb Taiwan y would they want to turn it into a radioactive wasteland. The same goes for the US; if the US wanted to defend Taiwanese sovriegnity, laying waste to the island would b counterproductive. As long as the US Navy maintains a credible presence the Chinese will think twice before attemting anything.

People should not think USA is defending Taiwan for Taiwan sake. Why should they do so if it does not benefit them? Politics is never a static process, it a dynamic process that changes according to the situation. but one thing that will never change is politican fight for their own interest and not for others interest first. Morality is not the issue.

When China is able to develop it economy and millitary in a few decades down the road, US is going to become increasingly depend on china and vice versa. Will US interest in Taiwan outweigh her interests in mainland? If war ever broke out by then, who should think twice about intervening? I do not have a clear answer to that and i doubt US politican have a answer either.



As to whether the people of Taiwan support independance or not really doesn't matter because all of that will go out the window if Taiwan is invaded. Whether or not u agree with a ruling government on whatever policy are u willing to lose your political and economic freedoms by force of arms from a invader or are you willing to fight for the things you cherish and set aside any differences?

This is a rather tricky issue. As i say it rather unique and you have to understand their thinking. By imposing a situation elsewhere into the cross straits context will not provide you with a accurate answer.

[ronin2172]

good points, like i said i was commenting on the possible tactical situation in a potential invasion. Not the political rights and wrongs of the region. Like u said prevention of the landing is key, but so is interdicting the supply lines in case a beachead is established (it would be prudent for the ROC to assume a beachead is established) and as long as the US Navy is in the area China will think twice.

I agree with u on the politics of US invlovement, who knows what might happen

[alscho]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

US should avoid nuke when possible.. It will get very serious when you nuke another nuclear-armed country.. Risk world wide condemnation etc etc.. Haha.. Some ppl will even say Americans ar racists, using the nukes only on East Asians :P

You mean, will a 2nd Korean war be created as a diversion up North..? Or NK will individually be opportunitic enough even to seize the moment..?

cheers

"Some people will say that we (US) are racist for using nukes on only Asian countries"....that has to take the cake for being one of the F'in dumbest things I have ever heard on this board....The use of nukes, or any other weapons system for that matter, is in no way, shape, or form, based on Racism.....I don't even see how you could come up with that theory....U should really think a little more before posting crap such as that. It is antagonistic and could end up starting a flame war, ehich we don't need so just think a little more before posting

Sir,

I said that as an example of the extreme, of course it wouldnt be the case. USA will not nuke China due to their skin colour. USA is a 'culture melting pot' as political scientists so eloquently calls it. But keep in mind with the ultra-nationalistic and anti-American.. behaviour in much of the 3rd world, individuals will seize this opportunity to misled the ignorants.. No doubt there were plenty of examples through the age of Man where irrelevent events were linked due to a illusional 'pattern'. It too can be an item of propaganda for the Mainland-Chinese government to minimize Asian support to USA as well as to gain perhaps 'individual groups' sympathies, whether they are 'terrorists' organizations or the New-York-China-Town-Community-Center.

MY apology for not explaining things clearly. I have no intention of having a futile direct link of nukes to racism, non do I have the intention of starting a 'flame war' as you called it.

Are we clear with this issue now?

Cheers,

[rodin_hsu]

what the hell is up with people assuming i'm japanese? Get a a f****in clue. And so what if i was japanease nothing i said in my post was flame bait. All i did was comment on the tactical situation the chinese military might find itself in if they invaded taiwan...please get your head out of your ass and read the damn post. I neither commented on why China would invade or if they r in the right to invde and to be honest your reasoning for china being justified is laughable....and for the record and for the last time I am African-American.....not japanese .....remember boys and girls when u assume u make an ASS out of U and ME

One more thing if u r going to quote my post...quote my entire post, and not just the part u feel validates your comment. Do not twist my words to make yourself look superior, that's just pathetic.

Not trying to be offensive. I was just try to show how sensitive this issue is with regard to a japanese.

As to tactic, I believe PLA understand how difficult it would be. PLA did have a history of amphibious operation, and the first amph. op. of PLA is a totally crushing defteat.

In 1949, PLA attempted landing on "Kinmen", which is a small island with an area of 148 sq. km and only "1.8" km from mainland. In this battle, the first part of troop suceessfully landed on the island. However, their ships were destroyed. The second part of troops and supplement were not be able to reach on time. Only three days, this battle was developed into a massacre. All the PLA soldiers landing on this island either be captured or be killed.

Maybe many Chinese ignorants forgot this lesson, but I think PLA generals will never forget. PLA will alwasy avoid to fight with US as much as they can. Of course, we should let Chinese know what kind of rival they are facing. But that doesn't mean China will tolerate Taiwan independence. If that does happen, China could be drawn into the war and so does US. That would be a tragedy to all of Chinese, Taiwanese, and probably some Americans. Some analysts compare this situation with WWI.

From my point of view, the key is on Taiwan pro-independence politicians. They know how hard China will face in this battle, and willing to take risk to push on independece progress within these few years. We shouldn't let them control our destiny. We shouldn't let them control our time table.

[PeoplesPoster]

what the hell is up with people assuming i'm japanese? Get a a f****in clue. And so what if i was japanease nothing i said in my post was flame bait. All i did was comment on the tactical situation the chinese military might find itself in if they invaded taiwan...please get your head out of your ass and read the damn post. I neither commented on why China would invade or if they r in the right to invde and to be honest your reasoning for china being justified is laughable....and for the record and for the last time I am African-American.....not japanese .....remember boys and girls when u assume u make an ASS out of U and ME

One more thing if u r going to quote my post...quote my entire post, and not just the part u feel validates your comment. Do not twist my words to make yourself look superior, that's just pathetic.


Not trying to be offensive. I was just try to show how sensitive this issue is with regard to a japanese.

As to tactic, I believe PLA understand how difficult it would be. PLA did have a history of amphibious operation, and the first amph. op. of PLA is a totally crushing defteat.

In 1949, PLA attempted landing on "Kinmen", which is a small island with an area of 148 sq. km and only "1.8" km from mainland. In this battle, the first part of troop suceessfully landed on the island. However, their ships were destroyed. The second part of troops and supplement were not be able to reach on time. Only three days, this battle was developed into a massacre. All the PLA soldiers landing on this island either be captured or be killed.

Maybe many Chinese ignorants forgot this lesson, but I think PLA generals will never forget. PLA will alwasy avoid to fight with US as much as they can. Of course, we should let Chinese know what kind of rival they are facing. But that doesn't mean China will tolerate Taiwan independence. If that does happen, China could be drawn into the war and so does US. That would be a tragedy to all of Chinese, Taiwanese, and probably some Americans. Some analysts analogy this situation with WWI.

In my point of view, the key is on Taiwan pro-independence politicians. They know how hard China will face in this battle, and willing to take risk to push on independece progress within these few years. We shouldn't let them control our destiny. We shouldn't let them control our time table.

Umm this is 1949, China's military was pretty ****ed up at that point of time, having gone through a Japanese invasion and a nasty civil war. I don't think it's fair to make a judgement based on that one failure.

[Steel21]

Let us look at the fundamental difference between the 2 chinas.

ECONOMICS

Taiwan is more developed than PRC. PRC is on its way, but a good 20 yeras behind. As for democracy, has taiwan always been a democracy? The answer is NO.

There was a time whn Taiwan was on a 1 party system, And that party was the KMT. In the initial years that it took over Taiwan, it exerted a powerful grasp upon the populace. It was not until the early 80's that Chinag Kai Shek's line did not ascend to the presidency of Taiwan. Fact is after Chiang died, his son took over....

So I would agur that PRC is actually on the same path as Taiwan. Greater economic prosperity inevitably leads to more social and political involvement. Becuase the people have a greater interest in maintaining their piece of the pie. And for the same reason a prosperous nation isnt going to descend into a turmooltous revolution, cause you can lose your nice lexus and BMW that way.

The 2 sides speak the same language, and are virtually the same. Its just a matter of time. Time being the key.

The conditions that are needed.

1) The civil war veterans needs to die, and so does those that were from the 1949 influx,

2) The 2 sides reach economic equilibrium.

I say conservatively 50 years, or might be as close as 15-20 years, but definitely within my lifetime.

[J-10]

Let us look at the fundamental difference between the 2 chinas.

ECONOMICS

Taiwan is more developed than PRC. PRC is on its way, but a good 20 yeras behind. As for democracy, has taiwan always been a democracy? The answer is NO.

There was a time whn Taiwan was on a 1 party system, And that party was the KMT. In the initial years that it took over Taiwan, it exerted a powerful grasp upon the populace. It was not until the early 80's that Chinag Kai Shek's line did not ascend to the presidency of Taiwan. Fact is after Chiang died, his son took over....

So I would agur that PRC is actually on the same path as Taiwan. Greater economic prosperity inevitably leads to more social and political involvement. Becuase the people have a greater interest in maintaining their piece of the pie. And for the same reason a prosperous nation isnt going to descend into a turmooltous revolution, cause you can lose your nice lexus and BMW that way.

The 2 sides speak the same language, and are virtually the same. Its just a matter of time. Time being the key.

The conditions that are needed.

1) The civil war veterans needs to die, and so does those that were from the 1949 influx,

2) The 2 sides reach economic equilibrium.

I say conservatively 50 years, or might be as close as 15-20 years, but definitely within my lifetime.

I agree with most of your viewpoint. I dont believe Taiwan's leader dare to declare a real independence in recent 15-20 years, so no war between strait. Even if China have a democratic system(most Chinese mainlanders hope so) in future, we still can not tolerate Taiwan independence, it's not a issue about democracy. It's a issue that U.S. dont wish a unified powerful China appear.

Could U.K. bear N. Ireland indenpendence via a N. Irish vote? Could U.S. bear California or Hawaii go to indenpendence by a self-determine? Could Canada bear ...... :lol:

And unify China not means it will change the recent lifestyle of Taiwanese, even Taiwan can remain their recent Army as "one China two system" policy. (I know Taiwanese dont like the term now, I bet you more dont like "one China one system" now. :lol: ) Do you have other good idea? Time being the key.

[ronin2172]

Let us look at the fundamental difference between the 2 chinas.

ECONOMICS

Taiwan is more developed than PRC. PRC is on its way, but a good 20 yeras behind. As for democracy, has taiwan always been a democracy? The answer is NO.

There was a time whn Taiwan was on a 1 party system, And that party was the KMT. In the initial years that it took over Taiwan, it exerted a powerful grasp upon the populace. It was not until the early 80's that Chinag Kai Shek's line did not ascend to the presidency of Taiwan. Fact is after Chiang died, his son took over....

So I would agur that PRC is actually on the same path as Taiwan. Greater economic prosperity inevitably leads to more social and political involvement. Becuase the people have a greater interest in maintaining their piece of the pie. And for the same reason a prosperous nation isnt going to descend into a turmooltous revolution, cause you can lose your nice lexus and BMW that way.

The 2 sides speak the same language, and are virtually the same. Its just a matter of time. Time being the key.

The conditions that are needed.

1) The civil war veterans needs to die, and so does those that were from the 1949 influx,

2) The 2 sides reach economic equilibrium.

I say conservatively 50 years, or might be as close as 15-20 years, but definitely within my lifetime.

I agree with most of your viewpoint. I dont believe Taiwan's leader dare to declare a real independence in recent 15-20 years, so no war between strait. Even if China have a democratic system(most Chinese mainlanders hope so) in future, we still can not tolerate Taiwan independence, it's not a issue about democracy. It's a issue that U.S. dont wish a unified powerful China appear.

Could U.K. bear N. Ireland indenpendence via a N. Irish vote? Could U.S. bear California or Hawaii go to indenpendence by a self-determine? Could Canada bear ...... :lol:

And unify China not means it will change the recent lifestyle of Taiwanese, even Taiwan can remain their recent Army as "one China two system" policy. (I know Taiwanese dont like the term now, I bet you more dont like "one China one system" now. :lol: ) Do you have other good idea? Time being the key.
your arguement is seriously flawed....especially concerning california and hawaii....Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It was a part of dynastic china, and after ww2 was returned to nationalist china, which was the recognized government at that time. Now u had the revolution and kicked the nationalists off of the mainland and they settled on the only part they still had; Taiwan. Califonia has been a part of the US for more than a century. Hawaii for less time but is still a part of the US. Taiwan is not a part of the PRC.

One china two system is a joke....none of the promised reforms have materialized in hong kong...not one member of the ruling council is from Hong Kong, all have been hand picked by beijing. The promised self determination has been postponed indefinitly, and you are going to tell me that china is going to allow things to go on in Taiwan as they always have including the military? Give me a break ....

[J-10]

Let us look at the fundamental difference between the 2 chinas.

ECONOMICS

Taiwan is more developed than PRC. PRC is on its way, but a good 20 yeras behind. As for democracy, has taiwan always been a democracy? The answer is NO.

There was a time whn Taiwan was on a 1 party system, And that party was the KMT. In the initial years that it took over Taiwan, it exerted a powerful grasp upon the populace. It was not until the early 80's that Chinag Kai Shek's line did not ascend to the presidency of Taiwan. Fact is after Chiang died, his son took over....

So I would agur that PRC is actually on the same path as Taiwan. Greater economic prosperity inevitably leads to more social and political involvement. Becuase the people have a greater interest in maintaining their piece of the pie. And for the same reason a prosperous nation isnt going to descend into a turmooltous revolution, cause you can lose your nice lexus and BMW that way.

The 2 sides speak the same language, and are virtually the same. Its just a matter of time. Time being the key.

The conditions that are needed.

1) The civil war veterans needs to die, and so does those that were from the 1949 influx,

2) The 2 sides reach economic equilibrium.

I say conservatively 50 years, or might be as close as 15-20 years, but definitely within my lifetime.

I agree with most of your viewpoint. I dont believe Taiwan's leader dare to declare a real independence in recent 15-20 years, so no war between strait. Even if China have a democratic system(most Chinese mainlanders hope so) in future, we still can not tolerate Taiwan independence, it's not a issue about democracy. It's a issue that U.S. dont wish a unified powerful China appear.

Could U.K. bear N. Ireland indenpendence via a N. Irish vote? Could U.S. bear California or Hawaii go to indenpendence by a self-determine? Could Canada bear ...... :lol:

And unify China not means it will change the recent lifestyle of Taiwanese, even Taiwan can remain their recent Army as "one China two system" policy. (I know Taiwanese dont like the term now, I bet you more dont like "one China one system" now. :lol: ) Do you have other good idea? Time being the key.
your arguement is seriously flawed....especially concerning california and hawaii....Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It was a part of dynastic china, and after ww2 was returned to nationalist china, which was the recognized government at that time. Now u had the revolution and kicked the nationalists off of the mainland and they settled on the only part they still had; Taiwan. Califonia has been a part of the US for more than a century. Hawaii for less time but is still a part of the US. Taiwan is not a part of the PRC.

One china two system is a joke....none of the promised reforms have materialized in hong kong...not one member of the ruling council is from Hong Kong, all have been hand picked by beijing. The promised self determination has been postponed indefinitly, and you are going to tell me that china is going to allow things to go on in Taiwan as they always have including the military? Give me a break ....

Sir, pls check my comment, I say "China". U.S. government admit: "Taiwan is a part of China, only one China in the world".

[Steel21]

Land and territory is like property:

POSSESSION IS 9/10 OF THE LAW.

And in the course of possesion, that means overall national and military might. If you want to go back far enough....... who owns what land? Didnt all homo sapiens came out of Africa anyway?

Basically, international borders are a result of history which is a product of human error and greed.

So what is more concrete? The will of the people. By that I mean everyone older than 12, because the young ones has a greater stake than the old farts in this game. Further, the youngens often shoulder much of the bleeding in a war for independence. Also, I would suggest a 3/4 majority to win. A mere 51% in these often life and death disputes just wont do.

As for reforms and such..... in the end, people just care about 1 maybe two things; 1) how much $$$$ do they have and 2) who sleeps in their beds.

The commies are control freaks and its harder than quiting crack to let go. But over time that will erode, because the younger generations didnt endure so much to get to their posts. The older farts had to go on the long march, the younger one through the famines and cultural revolution.

Like my battle buddy said back in basic at benning, **** works out in the end.

[alscho]

Let us look at the fundamental difference between the 2 chinas.

ECONOMICS

Taiwan is more developed than PRC. PRC is on its way, but a good 20 yeras behind. As for democracy, has taiwan always been a democracy? The answer is NO.

There was a time whn Taiwan was on a 1 party system, And that party was the KMT. In the initial years that it took over Taiwan, it exerted a powerful grasp upon the populace. It was not until the early 80's that Chinag Kai Shek's line did not ascend to the presidency of Taiwan. Fact is after Chiang died, his son took over....

So I would agur that PRC is actually on the same path as Taiwan. Greater economic prosperity inevitably leads to more social and political involvement. Becuase the people have a greater interest in maintaining their piece of the pie. And for the same reason a prosperous nation isnt going to descend into a turmooltous revolution, cause you can lose your nice lexus and BMW that way.

The 2 sides speak the same language, and are virtually the same. Its just a matter of time. Time being the key.

The conditions that are needed.

1) The civil war veterans needs to die, and so does those that were from the 1949 influx,

2) The 2 sides reach economic equilibrium.

I say conservatively 50 years, or might be as close as 15-20 years, but definitely within my lifetime.

I agree with most of your viewpoint. I dont believe Taiwan's leader dare to declare a real independence in recent 15-20 years, so no war between strait. Even if China have a democratic system(most Chinese mainlanders hope so) in future, we still can not tolerate Taiwan independence, it's not a issue about democracy. It's a issue that U.S. dont wish a unified powerful China appear.

Could U.K. bear N. Ireland indenpendence via a N. Irish vote? Could U.S. bear California or Hawaii go to indenpendence by a self-determine? Could Canada bear ...... :lol:

And unify China not means it will change the recent lifestyle of Taiwanese, even Taiwan can remain their recent Army as "one China two system" policy. (I know Taiwanese dont like the term now, I bet you more dont like "one China one system" now. :lol: ) Do you have other good idea? Time being the key.
your arguement is seriously flawed....especially concerning california and hawaii....Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It was a part of dynastic china, and after ww2 was returned to nationalist china, which was the recognized government at that time. Now u had the revolution and kicked the nationalists off of the mainland and they settled on the only part they still had; Taiwan. Califonia has been a part of the US for more than a century. Hawaii for less time but is still a part of the US. Taiwan is not a part of the PRC.

One china two system is a joke....none of the promised reforms have materialized in hong kong...not one member of the ruling council is from Hong Kong, all have been hand picked by beijing. The promised self determination has been postponed indefinitly, and you are going to tell me that china is going to allow things to go on in Taiwan as they always have including the military? Give me a break ....

Tawain has never been part of the People's Republic of China, BUT they are the Republic of China. This particular island has been part of.. at least the last two imperial dynasties of the past, reaching from the Ming Dynasty of 15cc passed onto Manchu Dynasty where it was territorial conced to Japan under force of arms. With Japan's unconditional surrender in war2, it was merely given back to China, and since USA support the RoC in the civil war, its only reasonable that its given to the nationalists instead of the communists.

If you consider Macau a Portugese colony of...300 years, Hong Kong, a British colony of 100 years.. Should we say that due to centuries of the respective countries' rule, they should never had been given back to China?

I am not particularly interested in contesting America's rule over your respective states, but how do you judge California, Hawaii or even Florida should and MUST be part of USA, while Tawain with longer shared history and deeper shared culture SHOULDN'T be part of a unified China?

Not contesting your methods of aquiring new states, with Florida and won in the war against Spain, California off Mexico and Hawaii off the native for their sugar.. (they had a king).. Hey the west was won off native Americans who are now forced onto small reservation land.. China's merely talked about reunifying with Tawain, and already 1/2 of you are complaining in the name of independence, democracy, autonomous entity.. Ironic? No?

---
I am IN Hong Kong, I am FROM Hong Kong. We didn't ask for self-determination. We asked for more autonomy under the Chinese flag. Actually, 1/2 our legistrative council IS people elected, what we were complaining about was an incompetent Chief Executive, government mishandling of SARS, slight corruption, Economic crisis of 1998, initial attempt to pass Article 23 which failed a year ago, and this year, to reinforce Article 45. I went on both those demonstrations.

1 country 2 system is NOT a joke. I am enjoying the exact same privaleges as I had under British rule. More so actually considered we are no longer treated as a mere colony of the Far East, the last burden of the British 'Empire' and we don't get foreigners with no understanding of our city appointed as governor.

cheers all

[Mongrel]

So the buzz word around China is re-unification is it?

One problem...I don't see Taiwan wanting to be part of China, and that is the key to the issue. So why not leave them alone?

China lost it too bad.

If you want to quote historical ownership them most of China should be given back to the Mongols also...as they once owned it.

So once again...Taiwan doesn't want to be part of China.

Also while your at it explain to me how China rightly owns Tibet?
I haven't seen one historical reffrence to indicate that it was ever owned by Chinese.

Cheers!
M.

[SpikeATGM]

So the buzz word around China is re-unification is it?

One problem...I don't see Taiwan wanting to be part of China, and that is the key to the issue. So why not leave them alone?

China lost it too bad.

If you want to quote historical ownership them most of China should be given back to the Mongols also...as they once owned it.

So once again...Taiwan doesn't want to be part of China.

Also while your at it explain to me how China rightly owns Tibet?
I haven't seen one historical reffrence to indicate that it was ever owned by Chinese.

Cheers!
M.

yeah and a lot of people in quebec also do not want to be part of Canada.

[Steel21]

So the buzz word around China is re-unification is it?

One problem...I don't see Taiwan wanting to be part of China, and that is the key to the issue. So why not leave them alone?

China lost it too bad.

If you want to quote historical ownership them most of China should be given back to the Mongols also...as they once owned it.

So once again...Taiwan doesn't want to be part of China.

Also while your at it explain to me how China rightly owns Tibet?
I haven't seen one historical reffrence to indicate that it was ever owned by Chinese.

Cheers!
M.


Well for 1 thing, theres more CHinese in Tibet than Tibetans!!!! Military Planners take note, that is how you successfully take a place and keep it, ....... you simply out number em'.

[ZeroPositive]

I think China shouldn't take over Taiwan, they should work together rather then argue all the time.
Tibet is probably a lost cause unless, say the UN or the US decide to liberate it... which I highly doubt..

[Mongrel]

SpikeATGM wrote:
"yeah and a lot of people in quebec also do not want to be part of Canada."

MH: Well many in Canada including the First Nations that live in Quebec, and where there long before the French or anyone else feel they can leave Canada and go back to France anytime they want. Don't let the door hit yah on the ass on the way out. woot

Steel21 wrote:
"Well for 1 thing, theres more CHinese in Tibet than Tibetans!!!! Military Planners take note, that is how you successfully take a place and keep it, ....... you simply out number em'."

MH: This was the plan from the start..there was still dead monks on the ground as the Han Chinese families were shipped in to take over the homes and biz...not unlike what the Germans did in Poland in WW2.

The Chinese also brought in a Fake Lama to take the place of the exiled Lama. Replacing population for population, and installing religious puppets is nothing new.

Cheers!
M.

[kitty tiger]

your arguement is seriously flawed....especially concerning california and hawaii....Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It was a part of dynastic china, and after ww2 was returned to nationalist china, which was the recognized government at that time. Now u had the revolution and kicked the nationalists off of the mainland and they settled on the only part they still had; Taiwan. Califonia has been a part of the US for more than a century. Hawaii for less time but is still a part of the US. Taiwan is not a part of the PRC.

One china two system is a joke....none of the promised reforms have materialized in hong kong...not one member of the ruling council is from Hong Kong, all have been hand picked by beijing. The promised self determination has been postponed indefinitly, and you are going to tell me that china is going to allow things to go on in Taiwan as they always have including the military? Give me a break ....

I had associated with some youth from taiwan, and suprisingly, a few of them wouldn't identify themselves as taiwanese, but rather as Japanese! I learned historically during WWII after japan occupied taiwan and much part of South East Asia, it started a sort colonial system, much like what British did to HK. As the youth suggested, they'd rather keep Japan occupiers, had they been in charge, then nowadays they can all become Japanese citizens. :cantbeli:

[DonDeal]

Regardless of our economic ties to China and etc. We are bound to protect Taiwan because of the "Taiwan Relations Act".

China will think twice because of the US Navy that will come to protect Taiwan when things get real heated or if China seriously mobilizes it's forces for an invasion.

Remember if China somehow goes after a CSG during a confrontation. That's all it takes for the government to have public support for a Declaration of War against China.(1. The Sinking of the Lusitania, although British ship but had many americans on board. One of the reason why USA waged war against germany. 2. USS Maine was sunked off the coast of Cuba, which led to the spanish american war and the end of spain's Superpower status. 3. Pearl Harbor)

Someone mentioned North Korea helping China I recall if a War breaks out? Well, that's the start of WW3.

The endgame is this. The US has a history of ending Superpowers and up-and-coming Supwer Powers(China) if it wages Total War against them. China is no different.

[kitty tiger]

Regardless of our economic ties to China and etc. We are bound to protect Taiwan because of the "Taiwan Relations Act".

China will think twice because of the US Navy that will come to protect Taiwan when things get real heated or if China seriously mobilizes it's forces for an invasion.

Remember if China somehow goes after a CSG during a confrontation. That's all it takes for the government to have public support for a Declaration of War against China.(1. The Sinking of the Lusitania, although British ship but had many americans on board. One of the reason why USA waged war against germany. 2. USS Maine was sunked off the coast of Cuba, which led to the spanish american war and the end of spain's Superpower status. 3. Pearl Harbor)

Someone mentioned North Korea helping China I recall if a War breaks out? Well, that's the start of WW3.

The endgame is this. The US has a history of ending Superpowers and up-and-coming Supwer Powers(China) if it wages Total War against them. China is no different.

Yet everyone just forgot thing, China has nukes. WW3 won't be a WW2 style conventional war. If China realized itself were to be destoryed, the earth too may end up be destroyed.

[Steel21]

If you wanna wage war, then know this:

No war has being won from a distance, in the end it was always the lowerly man on the ground with a stick, pike, rifle that has ultimately made it happen.

Further, lest we be blinded by the fact that in the recent conflicts we have fought aginst 3rd rate pwers with a disorganized military with non-existent air defense.

China is mountainous, populated, militarily better organized. Althoguh they might not have a good AF, they increasingly in possession of a decent ADA, some of which is aimed at the heart of our concerted air armada, the AWAC.

Also, can we count on the support of Japan and south Korea in a conflict like that? Are these countries willing to suppport our presence when the full outcome of such a conflict is unkown and they will have to deal with China, if it just merely survives?

In which case our ogistics will be far stretched.

There was a study conducted by JDW on Taiwanese military. Their initial impression was that of a small South Korea, but they found a thailand instead. It was corrupt, ill equipped. Procurement scandals abound....

Although it must be said that the education of Taiwan's military leadership might be better, the young men of both are of a totally different lot.

PRC's average private are farm boys accustom to sun, mud, nighsoil.... while Taiwanese are somewhat pampered youth disgruntled at being dragged aaway from their mall and colleges.

Either way, if the US intervenes, it must be able to deter the initial landing force. Much of which might not be planning on a return trip. Which means every thing that can float will be filled to do a 1 time landing. After which the much of the boats are to be junked where they land.

The force will likely be attacking in the middle of the island, cuttng it in 1/2. After the large force have infiltrated and fierce fighting have began in the populated urban environment. It would be hard for the us to intervene. Since both sides speaks the same language and looks exactly the same (possible SF infiltration months earlier as sleepers then disguised as Taiwan Military to sew confusion) there will be blue on blue incidents.

So now, how much ground force do we committ to the conflict. There is almost no way for Airpower to intervene once the fighting is intangled into the streets and alleys.

Never underestimate the enemy. The chinese are ingennious at adaptations. They will try to maximize our automation and computer dependency to their advantage. They have more men, and the willingness to bleed a bit more which means precise situational awareness is not a neccesity. They can strike with EMP rocket that will leaves us dioriented.

So unless we want to go nuclear, and keep the conflict local, we must intervene before the 1st wave (of at least 100,000 men) hit the beach. after the 2-3 wave 12-24 hours later Taiwan is essentially lost. A landing force not only then have to contend with a hostile beach but indirect fire fromt the mainland.

So it come to how fast can we mobilize? How many ship must we sink to make the landing force ineffective? How much can we bring to bare in 24-48 hours?

The answer will become increasingly clear, unless we initiate strike before the boats leave the mainland

Also, US forces will face the age old questions of how far do we go? Do we attack the mainland? How? Is it even possible not to use nukes at this point?

If we use nukes, how many must we kill. How far must each side go until one gives up? There is just no way we can conquer china. Understand this;

ALL OF IRAQ'S 24 MILLION PEOPLE CAN FIT INTO ONE CHINESE CITY.

Once that pandora's box is opened, where will all this lead? THis will be one conflictthat is far harder to predict than WWII.We shouldnt let the fact that Iraq, Kosovo, Taliban, were easy misguide us into thinking we are matchless. But in all honesty we have not fought a full scale eney since the Korean War, and we all know how that one came out.

Chinese on the other hand will not underestimate us.

If it does happen, watch the military go through another transformation and revitalize its heavy ground formations. All those Stryker BDEs, even if they can get there in 96 hours (which they cant), what are they gonna do?

[Steel21]

:bash: NOTHING IS EVER THAT SIMPLE, YET LIFE SHOULD NEVER BE THAT COMPLICATED :bash:

[SpikeATGM]

[quote]SpikeATGM wrote:
"yeah and a lot of people in quebec also do not want to be part of Canada."

MH: Well many in Canada including the First Nations that live in Quebec, and where there long before the French or anyone else feel they can leave Canada and go back to France anytime they want. Don't let the door hit yah on the ass on the way out. woot

Likewise, there are also a lot of abrogines in Taiwan who are traditionally more pro KMT than DPP. They are there even long before the first chinese immigrant set foot. To them, those so called native Taiwanese or mainlander Taiwanese are descendent of chinese immigrant. They could also say the same thing as you did, but calls for independence is mostly from Native Taiwanese and not from them.

[Mongrel]

That must be really strange to have two foreign groups fighting over your land. We live in a strange world.

[bertfivesix]

Wow, how did I miss this topic for so long? :lol:

Ah, I'm too tired to rant, and everyone's basically pointed out all the major aspects of the situation (civilly, I might add :) ), so I'll just pound these facts home:

Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It hardly was even a part of any Chinese dynasty. We've been constantly occupied by foreign powers, and were oppressed under the Nationalist dictatorship, so now we'd like the place to ourselves, mmkay? Thanks.

Mao himself said the Taiwanese people should be free to determine their own fate. Thanks Mao.

The UN charter and standing international treaties give Taiwan the right to self-determination. That's all we ask. Thanks. :hug:

[coldman]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

US should avoid nuke when possible.. It will get very serious when you nuke another nuclear-armed country.. Risk world wide condemnation etc etc.. Haha.. Some ppl will even say Americans ar racists, using the nukes only on East Asians :P

You mean, will a 2nd Korean war be created as a diversion up North..? Or NK will individually be opportunitic enough even to seize the moment..?

cheers


Americans are racist...and hypocritical

[coldman]

Regardless of our economic ties to China and etc. We are bound to protect Taiwan because of the "Taiwan Relations Act".

China will think twice because of the US Navy that will come to protect Taiwan when things get real heated or if China seriously mobilizes it's forces for an invasion.

Remember if China somehow goes after a CSG during a confrontation. That's all it takes for the government to have public support for a Declaration of War against China.(1. The Sinking of the Lusitania, although British ship but had many americans on board. One of the reason why USA waged war against germany. 2. USS Maine was sunked off the coast of Cuba, which led to the spanish american war and the end of spain's Superpower status. 3. Pearl Harbor)

Someone mentioned North Korea helping China I recall if a War breaks out? Well, that's the start of WW3.

The endgame is this. The US has a history of ending Superpowers and up-and-coming Supwer Powers(China) if it wages Total War against them. China is no different.


Okay, so the US of A successfully defeats China. What happens after that?
Will Mr. Rumsfeld plan another successful occupation and turn China into a democracy?

Don't forget that China is continent in size much like the US of A. Hitler had trouble swallow whole the Soviet Union because of her size and the Japanese in WWII couldn't take China whole despite 8 years of warfare.

Even if the US of A defeats China and packs up and go home, will not the aftermath create humanitarian (remember there are 1.2 Billion as in B people) and other problems that will threaten US interests?

[coldman]

Wow, how did I miss this topic for so long? :lol:

Ah, I'm too tired to rant, and everyone's basically pointed out all the major aspects of the situation (civilly, I might add :) ), so I'll just pound these facts home:

Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It hardly was even a part of any Chinese dynasty. We've been constantly occupied by foreign powers, and were oppressed under the Nationalist dictatorship, so now we'd like the place to ourselves, mmkay? Thanks.

Mao himself said the Taiwanese people should be free to determine their own fate. Thanks Mao.

The UN charter and standing international treaties give Taiwan the right to self-determination. That's all we ask. Thanks. :hug:


You are dreaming. You should befriend those loons who believe the Holocaust never existed.

Taiwan had indeed been occupied by foreign powers, but she didn't reject all of them. Infact, I'll bet you prefer Hirohito as your grandpapa more than anything.

The fact is even if Taiwan wants to be an independent nation, she lacks the will or the class to get it. You got to be in the league of an Israel before formosa can even remotely call herself a nation.

[2RHPZ]

China closing the gap Militarily with the USA

Pentagon Report Examines China’s Military

Voice of America news; July 27, 2004

The Pentagon has taken a new look at China’s military modernization program. A recent Pentagon report concluded that after decades of relying on Eastern bloc technology, Beijing is striving to achieve a quality of weapons equal to those in the developed world within the next decade.

The Pentagon says it has much to learn about the strategic ambitions and decision-making behind Beijing’s military modernization. One thing is known though. A decade of sustained economic growth in China has helped the Peoples’ Liberation Army to close the weapons technology gap with the United States.

“They have achieved that largely by leveraging success in the commercial sectors in China in ship building, information technologies, and other things that they have then been able to translate back into the military modernization program,” said James Mulvenon, a China analyst at the Rand Corporation, a government-funded research institute. He said a recent Pentagon report to Congress on China’s military progress, as well as military exercises the U.S. Navy, makes clear that U.S. officials are concerned about Beijing’s military program.

“I think that the tone and content of the latest annual report on Chinese military power clearly shows that they are concerned about it and our [military] exercising and other things we are doing in the region shows the seriousness with which we take these developments,” added Mr. Mulvenon.

The report concludes the Chinese military has directly benefited from what has been a five-fold increase in the country’s economic growth, enabling Beijing to upgrade missiles, aircraft, and submarines, while looking to achieve the same level of technology as the industrialized world within the next five to 10 years.

But the Pentagon’s latest assessment of China’s military capabilities concludes Beijing is likely to fall short of fully meeting that goal. Richard Bitzinger is a researcher at the Defense Department’s Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies in Hawaii.

“The concern is obviously that the Chinese are going to be moving from a military that was largely a 1950s and 1960s technology base to one that is certainly 20-25 years further on down the line,” said Richard Bitzinger.

Over the years, China has purchased much of its military upgrades from Russia and countries of the former Soviet Union, which still leaves it far behind U.S. technology.

“It is certainly a much more formidable military than it was even a decade ago and all that of course, at the very least, complicates Pentagon military planning with regard to East Asia and particularly with regard to any kind of possible conflict in the Taiwan Straits,” he added.

Several China defense analysts who work closely with or for the U.S. military say the Chinese recently unveiled a more advanced attack submarine that caught U.S. intelligence by surprise.

What does this all mean for the U.S. military? Chinese military officials have described this buildup as defensive. But Retired Admiral Eric McVadon, who was the U.S. defense attaché in Beijing from 1990 to 1992, believes these advances raise questions about Beijing’s strategic ambitions, and could directly affect the United States if it ever had to come to the defense of Taiwan, as it is legally bound to do.

“Taiwan is the thing that always comes to mind, where they could essentially accomplish something with respect to Taiwan and present the world with a fait accompli because they had confused, delayed or deterred us for long enough time for that to happen,” he said.

The Pentagon estimates total defense-related spending by the People’s Liberation Army, including investments in new weapons programs for last year, to be as high as $70 billion, making China the third-largest military spender after the United States and Russia.

[alscho]

Someone on here brought up a good point and I would like to see what the thoughts on this are from some of the knowledgeable people on this board....

Due to the fact that our forces are stretched so thin due to the fighting of the War on Terror in two major theatres of war along with many other related smaller deployments, if china invades Taiwan or NK ivades SK, will the fact that our forces are stretched so thin force us to use Tac Nukes in such a situation...?

Thanks for your thoughts

Also, does anyone think that if we (The US) were forced to defend Taiwan in a war with China, would NK step in on China's side?

US should avoid nuke when possible.. It will get very serious when you nuke another nuclear-armed country.. Risk world wide condemnation etc etc.. Haha.. Some ppl will even say Americans ar racists, using the nukes only on East Asians :P

You mean, will a 2nd Korean war be created as a diversion up North..? Or NK will individually be opportunitic enough even to seize the moment..?

cheers


Americans are racist...and hypocritical

I didn't mean it THAT way.. :oops: (read a reply I made earlier)

[alscho]

China closing the gap Militarily with the USA

Pentagon Report Examines China’s Military

Voice of America news; July 27, 2004

The Pentagon has taken a new look at China’s military modernization program. A recent Pentagon report concluded that after decades of relying on Eastern bloc technology, Beijing is striving to achieve a quality of weapons equal to those in the developed world within the next decade.

The Pentagon says it has much to learn about the strategic ambitions and decision-making behind Beijing’s military modernization. One thing is known though. A decade of sustained economic growth in China has helped the Peoples’ Liberation Army to close the weapons technology gap with the United States.

“They have achieved that largely by leveraging success in the commercial sectors in China in ship building, information technologies, and other things that they have then been able to translate back into the military modernization program,” said James Mulvenon, a China analyst at the Rand Corporation, a government-funded research institute. He said a recent Pentagon report to Congress on China’s military progress, as well as military exercises the U.S. Navy, makes clear that U.S. officials are concerned about Beijing’s military program.

“I think that the tone and content of the latest annual report on Chinese military power clearly shows that they are concerned about it and our [military] exercising and other things we are doing in the region shows the seriousness with which we take these developments,” added Mr. Mulvenon.

The report concludes the Chinese military has directly benefited from what has been a five-fold increase in the country’s economic growth, enabling Beijing to upgrade missiles, aircraft, and submarines, while looking to achieve the same level of technology as the industrialized world within the next five to 10 years.

But the Pentagon’s latest assessment of China’s military capabilities concludes Beijing is likely to fall short of fully meeting that goal. Richard Bitzinger is a researcher at the Defense Department’s Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies in Hawaii.

“The concern is obviously that the Chinese are going to be moving from a military that was largely a 1950s and 1960s technology base to one that is certainly 20-25 years further on down the line,” said Richard Bitzinger.

Over the years, China has purchased much of its military upgrades from Russia and countries of the former Soviet Union, which still leaves it far behind U.S. technology.

“It is certainly a much more formidable military than it was even a decade ago and all that of course, at the very least, complicates Pentagon military planning with regard to East Asia and particularly with regard to any kind of possible conflict in the Taiwan Straits,” he added.

Several China defense analysts who work closely with or for the U.S. military say the Chinese recently unveiled a more advanced attack submarine that caught U.S. intelligence by surprise.

What does this all mean for the U.S. military? Chinese military officials have described this buildup as defensive. But Retired Admiral Eric McVadon, who was the U.S. defense attaché in Beijing from 1990 to 1992, believes these advances raise questions about Beijing’s strategic ambitions, and could directly affect the United States if it ever had to come to the defense of Taiwan, as it is legally bound to do.

“Taiwan is the thing that always comes to mind, where they could essentially accomplish something with respect to Taiwan and present the world with a fait accompli because they had confused, delayed or deterred us for long enough time for that to happen,” he said.

The Pentagon estimates total defense-related spending by the People’s Liberation Army, including investments in new weapons programs for last year, to be as high as $70 billion, making China the third-largest military spender after the United States and Russia.

Thas nice. We are merely catching up ;)

USA spends over $100 billion on the missile defence system alone. Is that included in their annual spending of $400 billion? Thank God, USA is a democracy...

cheers,

[Mongrel]

Wow, how did I miss this topic for so long? :lol:

Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It hardly was even a part of any Chinese dynasty. We've been constantly occupied by foreign powers, and were oppressed under the Nationalist dictatorship, so now we'd like the place to ourselves, mmkay? Thanks.

Mao himself said the Taiwanese people should be free to determine their own fate. Thanks Mao.

The UN charter and standing international treaties give Taiwan the right to self-determination. That's all we ask. Thanks. :hug:

MH: There yah have it...well said bertfivesix.
That is amazing that Mao said that.

Also Coldman...The idea is to protect Taiwan, not take over China. Which is a high maintance country...not unlike a Hong Kong woman. :P

I say let China fall under its own weight in time, as yes it is a big country, but this can that make it even harder to maintain. Esp' when one uses its Military so much to run its Government with lots of potential internal and external fronts to fight on.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers!
M.

[bertfivesix]

Wow, how did I miss this topic for so long? :lol:

Ah, I'm too tired to rant, and everyone's basically pointed out all the major aspects of the situation (civilly, I might add :) ), so I'll just pound these facts home:

Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC. It hardly was even a part of any Chinese dynasty. We've been constantly occupied by foreign powers, and were oppressed under the Nationalist dictatorship, so now we'd like the place to ourselves, mmkay? Thanks.

Mao himself said the Taiwanese people should be free to determine their own fate. Thanks Mao.

The UN charter and standing international treaties give Taiwan the right to self-determination. That's all we ask. Thanks. :hug:


You are dreaming. You should befriend those loons who believe the Holocaust never existed.

Taiwan had indeed been occupied by foreign powers, but she didn't reject all of them. Infact, I'll bet you prefer Hirohito as your grandpapa more than anything.

The fact is even if Taiwan wants to be an independent nation, she lacks the will or the class to get it. You got to be in the league of an Israel before formosa can even remotely call herself a nation.

What exactly am I dreaming about? Feel free to try to disprove any facts I've listed.

You've got your facts wrong. Are you implying that the Taiwanese people accepted Japanese rule with open arms? I suppose declaring a free republic and resisting the occupation (woefully unsuccessfully) for a few months doesn't register with you. Though it is true, Japanese rule was tame in contrast to KMT martial law.

And what exactly is "in the league of an Israel"? By what standards are you judging?

[kitty tiger]

I read news post that Taiwan's DPP vice president called on the island's natives to leave Taiwan and immigrate to a central America nations, so that they, the "DPP", can officially represent Taiwan's natives and declare independence. Such act brought huge revulsion among the real taiwan natives, one of whom, demonstrating in the captial, claimed that he's willing to sacrifice himself by marrying to DDP's vice pres (she is a woman), form a family, then together only them two will immigrate to Central America, just to save the his pure native race:lol: :lol:

Get me? It's telling that there are "real" natives in Taiwan, and there are also the so-called natives like the DPP and KMT, who aren't considered by the "real" natives as the natives, yet they want to represent the natives as natives. Confused ? :fork:

Just like Canadian Quebecers consider themselves native Quebecers, yet just not native enough to be accepted by the native Indians. [/b]

[Mongrel]

Just like Canadian Quebecers consider themselves native Quebecers, yet just not native enough to be accepted by the native Indians.

Yup and the First Nations people find this amusing to say the least.
The PQ threatens Canada with seperation, and the first nations people living there say (in my paraphrase)...excuse me! We consider ourselves Canadians and we where here first so YOU can leave. :D
A very strange situation indeed.

Cheers!
M.

[Redragon]

Sorry for bringing back an old subject but I just couldn't resist. Some of you said that China would be able successfully conquer Taiwan in around two weeks and I totally disagree. Theres a pretty big gap between the two countries and the only way to invade is through an air or amphibious assault. Taiwan has an army of 250 000 people so that would be a lot of airplanes which China doesn't have. In reality, you would only need a portion of that to establish a beachhead. The ratio between invader : defender would probably need to be higher than the D-Day invasion though because the defender (all 250 000) is concentrated in a smaller space and can be moved into the theatre faster. I'm not an expert but I would say at least 2-3 divisions would be needed to be sent over from China. Most of those people would come via ships which would be easy picking for the Taiwanese. China has mostly a coastal navy which means it can't venture very far. Its destroyers and frigates have minimal surface to air capability and rely on the airforce to protect it to a certain point. Its current fighters are also crap compared to Taiwan's (this country is equipped by the US by the way). Point is, before China wouldn't even be able to land its troops on Taiwan or at least a significant amount.

In the coming years, China's capability would increase greatly though with the purchase of the Sovremenny and Su-30 fighters both of which are amongst the best in the world in their class which even scares the US.