Israel: Anti-draft-dodger activists take campaign to the streets

[OrangeWolf]

The Israeli Forum for the Promotion of an Equal Share of the Burden is due on Friday to hold a two-hour vigil in Ramat Gan to protest the fact that 35 percent of conscription-age men and woman do not perform military or any other kind of national service.

“There is a Compulsory Security Service Law in Israel and this country is governed by the rule of law,” Miri Bar-On, the founder of the forum, told The Jerusalem Post. “Therefore, it cannot be that the law will only apply to 65% of the population.”

Bar-On established the organization in 2007, after the Knesset voted to extend the Tal Law, which legalizes military service exemptions for haredim while encouraging them to leave the yeshiva and work without having to face the prospect of three years of compulsory military service.

According to the temporary legislation, which was extended for a second five-year period on July 18, 2007, any haredi man who asks for it will be granted a compulsory military service exemption for three years. In the fourth year, the student may leave the yeshiva for any reason without being drafted.

At the end of that year, he has three choices: He may either return to yeshiva and continue studying, or perform a truncated compulsory service after which he does not have to return to the yeshiva but will be called up for reserve duty. Under the third option, he may complete a year of public service or learn a trade and may then begin to work without being called up to serve.

According to Bar-On, the law has proved to be a failure and should be annulled. She quoted senior officers in the IDF Manpower Branch as warning that in another 10 years, 25% of all 18-year-old Jewish Israeli men will study in a yeshiva rather than serve in the army. Today, the figure has already reached 13%.

The aim of the Tal Law is not to get haredim to serve in the army but to get them to stop studying and join the work force, she charged. Even those haredim who devote a year to public service do so within the confines of their own community and do not serve the community at large in vital services like firefighting or the police.

But it is not only the haredim who trouble Bar-On.

“Our struggle is not only against them,” she told the Post. “We believe that everyone should serve – if not in the army then in community service.”

She includes Israeli Arabs and conscientious objectors among those who should work on behalf of the community.

“Today, there are two societies in Israel, living separate lives side by side,” she said. “There are those who live in a certain reality, who do not sleep at night when their children are serving, and there are those who feel nothing. There are those who serve in the army and those that pursue a career or spend their time in the yeshiva.”

Bar-On said she decided to take her protest movement to the streets because the politicians have failed to do what they should have done.

“It looks like the pressure must come from below to make a change,” she added, saying that the organization will hold vigils at least twice a month from now on.

After the Tal Law was extended for another five years, several organizations and individuals petitioned the High Court to nullify the law on the grounds that it had failed to accomplish its aims and that, on the other hand, it violated the constitutional principle of equality.

In a decision handed down on September 8, 2009, a panel of nine Supreme Court justices headed by Esther Hayut granted the government 15 more months to see whether it could persuade greater numbers of haredim to either join the army or learn a trade and join the work force. The court will resume hearings on the petition at the beginning of 2011.
Source: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=172291

Man Israeli politics needs to get their **** together, these laws exist because every coalition has ****ty ultra-religious idiots to get a majority. Eh, couldn't the Haredim be given Palestinian ID cards? Well, that doesn't really take away the problem of them being mostly lunatics.

What are your thoughts?

[Fifth Business]

The haredim will be death of Israel. They will vote the most extreme individuals, but won't do the heavy fighting the secular sabras will do. Conscientious objectors are ok there are other forms of National Service studying at a Yeshiva shouldn't be one of them. The State gives the haredim too much lee way, also the haredim actions do as much to foster anti-semitism as Palestinian propaganda.

- Go Golani (Nahal you party too much)

[GB_FXST]

... snip ...

- Go Nahal

Fixed it for ya ... :)

[deathil93]

Makes me kind of sick reading it knowing that there are people who are disabled or mentally handicaped or just can't join regular units for some reason and still choose to do some kind of national service, even if they can say no.

Bibi is being pushed around by the Shas too much too, he grants every wish they make ffs...

[OrangeWolf]

Bibi is being pushed around by the Shas too much too, he grants every wish they make ffs...

Yeah. Well I think it's dangerous coalitions need to be formed with ultra-religious nutjobs, it cannot be for the better.

[ZZEZ]

Makes me kind of sick reading it knowing that there are people who are disabled or mentally handicaped or just can't join regular units for some reason and still choose to do some kind of national service, even if they can say no.

Bibi is being pushed around by the Shas too much too, he grants every wish they make ffs...

I saw a group of mentally retarded people sorting out IDF warehouses after Cast Lead..they filled my heart with allot of warmness seeing people that most people won't even talk to help out with whatever they can.

WRT Bibi..he doesn't have much of a choice - his option if he wants to get rid of Shas and the ultra-right doesn't exist

[bababooey]

IMO, I would not want my son or daughter to fight for my country if I or my children did not agree with government policy. Of course, each country is unique in its defensive needs, but forcing young people to serve against their will is, IMO, akin to being an indentured servant. I would rather have my children go abroad to live. I volunteered to serve my country, I knew the risks, and I was of legal age to do so. That was my choice and I don't feel any more a citizen then my neighbors who didn't serve. Speaking as a father, a man's right to live peacefully in his own land should not have to be paid by the blood of his children. I would re-enlist and put my old ass in a foxhole if that were the case.

[OrangeWolf]

IMO, I would not want my son or daughter to fight for my country if I or my children did not agree with government policy. Of course, each country is unique in its defensive needs, but forcing young people to serve against their will is, IMO, akin to being an indentured servant. I would rather have my children go abroad to live. I volunteered to serve my country, I knew the risks, and I was of legal age to do so. That was my choice and I don't feel any more a citizen then my neighbors who didn't serve. Speaking as a father, a man's right to live peacefully in his own land should not have to be paid by the blood of his children. I would re-enlist and put my old ass in a foxhole if that were the case.

Israel's security situation is different. Anyway:
76% of Recruits Request Combat Positions http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/10/03/0401.htm

[bababooey]

I agree its a different security situation. However, if an Israeli does not believe in , governments policies, why must he or his children be obligated to serve the state in a military capacity, or at all.

As far as those who chose to serve in combat units, bravo to them. I admire their dedication.

[RoyB]

I agree its a different security situation. However, if an Israeli does not believe in , governments policies, why must he or his children be obligated to serve the state in a military capacity, or at all.
Because its the law.

[ting]

I agree its a different security situation. However, if an Israeli does not believe in , governments policies, why must he or his children be obligated to serve the state in a military capacity, or at all.

As far as those who chose to serve in combat units, bravo to them. I admire their dedication.

Think of it as paying taxes. It's your duty as a member of society to do your part for the society.

[bababooey]

Think of it as paying taxes. It's your duty as a member of society to do your part for the society.

Yeah, I see your point. Maybe as a dad, I see things different. But if payment back to society is the goal, let kids do civic work or tutor in grade school.
At least its not getting killed or killing someone else for a cause one does not believe in.

[RoyB]

Yeah, I see your point. Maybe as a dad, I see things different. But if payment back to society is the goal, let kids do civic work or tutor in grade school.
At least its not getting killed or killing someone else for a cause one does not believe in.
No one fights for politicians. You fight for your people, your family, your homeland. You fight for a specific ideology of yours that you're trying to promote into society, and that includes volunteering to combat.

[Atlantic Friend]

I understand the frustration of Bar-On. Did these exemptions always exist? The articles speaks of the Tal Law of 2007, but unless I'm mistaken the Haredim already benefited from exemptions before, didn't they?

[Rictor]

The haredim will be death of Israel. They will vote the most extreme individuals, but won't do the heavy fighting the secular sabras will do. Conscientious objectors are ok there are other forms of National Service studying at a Yeshiva shouldn't be one of them. The State gives the haredim too much lee way, also the haredim actions do as much to foster anti-semitism as Palestinian propaganda.

- Go Golani (Nahal you party too much)

The Haredim do something which the rest of Israel is now unwilling or unable to do, and which is far more important to the nation's long-term security than a few soldiers here and there: have babies. Lot's of them. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter how well-armed or professional your military is, if the country is not demographically viable. So...yeah.

Israel can afford to allow exemptions, as there is no mortal peril at the moment. A few Hamas men with AKs is not an existential threat. When that changes, I'm sure they will start drafting more widely.

[gilgoul]

I agree its a different security situation. However, if an Israeli does not believe in , governments policies, why must he or his children be obligated to serve the state in a military capacity, or at all.

As far as those who chose to serve in combat units, bravo to them. I admire their dedication.


Because there is something called "duty", that should come with our "rights".
In those time of entitlement in western societies, of a free ride for everyone, no matter the cost or the consequences, it is necessary to remind people that being a part of a society has benefits, and costs too.
I do not agree with a lot of things my government does, I have numerous issues with the society I live in, but I took an oath, and take this oath seriously, to do my upmost to serve and defend my country, and to obey the lawful orders of my superiors.
And as a citizen, if you don't want to serve your country in one position or another, you should be made liable for the cost of your mandatory education, and taken off employment and social benefits lists, there are enough ways to serve, and all of them don't have to be military.

[gilgoul]

The Haredim do something which the rest of Israel is now unwilling or unable to do, and which is far more important to the nation's long-term security than a few soldiers here and there: have babies. Lot's of them. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter how well-armed or professional your military is, if the country is not demographically viable. So...yeah.

Israel can afford to allow exemptions, as there is no mortal peril at the moment. A few Hamas men with AKs is not an existential threat. When that changes, I'm sure they will start drafting more widely.

I disagree,
the free ride granted by Ben Gurion to a few thousand Hareidis has become a budget, employment, law enforcement and even a societal nightmare.
The budget of the state is provided by a diminishing proportion of taxpayers, who never see the benefit of our so-called welfare state, since a growing proportion of this welfare goes to a growing proportion of people who make a lot of kids, kids who don't go to general cursus schools but to their own school system, that doesn't provide any significant vocational training or general knowledge, while constituting a growing proportion of voters with "interesting" voting patterns.

Let's cancel the Tal law, and draft all of those dodgers either in military or better, general services, environmental services (that would do good to get a sense of ecology among some yeshiva boys) and social services serving the general public, and not only local communities.


A

[Rictor]

Without the Haredim, Israel has a negative population growth rate. What do you think that means for a state surrounded by neighbors who's growth rates are off the charts? Try thinking fifty years ahead.

I think the economic drain is a far more significant problem than the military issue. The fact is that Israel stopped spending a dime on its military tomorrow, it would still maintain absolute superiority for the next few decades - there is no one who is even close. So what y'all Israelis should be thinking about is how to get these people employed.

[OrangeWolf]

Without the Haredim, Israel has a negative population growth rate. What do you think that means for a state surrounded by neighbors who's growth rates are off the charts? Try thinking fifty years ahead.

Do you have numbers/sources?


I think the economic drain is a far more significant problem than the military issue. The fact is that Israel stopped spending a dime on its military tomorrow, it would still maintain absolute superiority for the next few decades - there is no one who is even close. So what y'all Israelis should be thinking about is how to get these people employed.

Eh.. I don't think Egypt is decades behind Israel.

[ting]

Could someone tell me why the haredim don't want to do military service? I tried to browse quickly through the wiki but could not find an answer.

Is it the thou shalt not kill commandment or is there a more complex reason?

I seem to remember something about them having to spend their days being religious being the reason. But they have to earn a living don't they, so they cant pray all the time.

[matthew.manhorn]

If an Israeli converted into a Mormon or Muslim can he dodge the draft?

[Beholder]

Without the Haredim, Israel has a negative population growth rate.
.

This is not true.Where do you get this info?You know that haredim ~8-10% of jewish population,right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

[Alex G]

The Haredim do something which the rest of Israel is now unwilling or unable to do, and which is far more important to the nation's long-term security than a few soldiers here and there: have babies. Lot's of them. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter how well-armed or professional your military is, if the country is not demographically viable. So...yeah.

Israel can afford to allow exemptions, as there is no mortal peril at the moment. A few Hamas men with AKs is not an existential threat. When that changes, I'm sure they will start drafting more widely.

A lot of babies - who will never go to work. Thats what a country needs.

[OrangeWolf]

Could someone tell me why the haredim don't want to do military service? I tried to browse quickly through the wiki but could not find an answer.

Is it the thou shalt not kill commandment or is there a more complex reason?

I seem to remember something about them having to spend their days being religious being the reason. But they have to earn a living don't they, so they cant pray all the time.

Most of them don't recognize Israel to begin with. And I guess many don't want to serve what they see as a secular state. Though this holds no ground considering the majority of religious Jews who do serve.


A lot of babies - who will never go to work. Thats what a country needs.

*2

[Alex G]

Could someone tell me why the haredim don't want to do military service? I tried to browse quickly through the wiki but could not find an answer.

Is it the thou shalt not kill commandment or is there a more complex reason?

I seem to remember something about them having to spend their days being religious being the reason. But they have to earn a living don't they, so they cant pray all the time.

If i am not wrong - they dont do anything but study Torah at all. As far i know only womans do actually work, while man study. Not sure about it, only have seen some articles about it.

[Rictor]

Do you have numbers/sources?

Total fertility rate for Israel is 2.75

Among Muslims in Israel, it's 3.84
Among Haredim it's 8.51 (Ashkenazi - 1996) and 6.57 (Sephardic - 1996)

So make you own conclusions. If these two sectors of the population are booming, and overall Israel has a fertility rate that is just above replacement (2.2 or thereabouts = replacement), what do you think the result would be without them?

Sources: Wikipedia, linking to this report (http://www.focusanthro.org/archive/2005-2006/katz0506.pdf)

[Alex G]

Total fertility rate for Israel is 2.75

Among Muslims in Israel, it's 3.84
Among Haredim it's 8.51 (Ashkenazi - 1996) and 6.57 (Sephardic - 1996)

So make you own conclusions. If these two sectors of the population are booming, and overall Israel has a fertility rate that is just above replacement (2.2 or thereabouts = replacement), what do you think the result would be without them?

Sources: Wikipedia, linking to this report (http://www.focusanthro.org/archive/2005-2006/katz0506.pdf)

What will be with them?They do not contribute to state and tend to vote for ones who arent helping state either. While they help to keep Israel a jewish state, they do not do anything else for it in big picture. Immigration would be more helpful, then birthrate, since immigrants usually would contribute to the county.

[tanks_alot]

Could someone tell me why the haredim don't want to do military service? I tried to browse quickly through the wiki but could not find an answer.

Is it the thou shalt not kill commandment or is there a more complex reason?

I seem to remember something about them having to spend their days being religious being the reason. But they have to earn a living don't they, so they cant pray all the time.

There are many reasons, some simply do not recognize the state of Israel because the messaich hasn't arrived yet. but the major claims are that the army life simply does not allow them to observe religion the way they want to, it isn't modest enough because there are also girls in the army, they believe that they should spend their lives studing the Torah and that the state of Israel exists, win wars etc', not because of the army, but because they are praying, so it's more important than serving.

I remember having my vacation cut short because of an upcoming operation due to some bombing or something. so, i'm sitting in a bus, heading for a settelment and from there i had to get to my outpost, where in routine times we would do 3-3 shifts. meaning 3 hours of of guarding and 3 hours of rest (if we were lucky) and that's just for maintaining the outpost, without talking about activity or operations. anyway, some of the other soldiers were having a conversation with a religious guy who was also on the bus and was heading for a Yeshiva. and at some point he simply said that there are more than enough soldiers and praying is simply more important. my blood was boiling...

Now, i'm against forcing people to serve if they have such strong objections because they won't make good soldiers. however that doesn't mean they can't do national service and contribute in other ways. and that goes both for the Arabs and the Ultra Orthodox. i think that national service should be mandatory for those who don't serve in the army for any reason.

It's a social travesty, so ok, they don't want to serve in the army, aren't willing to contribute through national service, they spit in your face and despise you for your heinous and unholy ways, but they still demand your money so they could support their 999999 children per family, because they don't go to work.

[ting]

There are many reasons, some simply do not recognize the state of Israel because the messaich hasn't arrived yet. but the major claims are that the army life simply does not allow them to observe religion the way they want to, it isn't modest enough because there are also girls in the army, they believe that they should spend their lives studing the Torah and that the state of Israel exists, win wars etc', not because of the army, but because they are praying, so it's more important than serving.

I remember having my vacation cut short because of an upcoming operation due to some bombing or something. so, i'm sitting in a bus, heading for a settelment and from there i had to get to my outpost, where in routine times we would do 3-3 shifts. meaning 3 hours of of guarding and 3 hours of rest (if we were lucky) and that's just for maintaining the outpost, without talking about activity or operations. anyway, some of the other soldiers were having a conversation with a religious guy who was also on the bus and was heading for a Yeshiva. and at some point he simply said that there are more than enough soldiers and praying is simply more important. my blood was boiling...

Now, i'm against forcing people to serve if they have such strong objections because they won't make good soldiers. however that doesn't mean they can't do national service and contribute in other ways. and that goes both for the Arabs and the Ultra Orthodox. i think that national service should be mandatory for those who don't serve in the army for any reason.

It's a social travesty, so ok, they don't want to serve in the army, aren't willing to contribute through national service, they spit in your face and despise you for your heinous and unholy ways, but they still demand your money so they could support their 999999 children per family, because they don't go to work.

Thanks, that makes it clearer. I agree with you, they should have some kind of civilian service. Perhaps if they could pray better instead of more they could fit some societal service into their day.:lol: I find it admirable that that they are allowed their practice, however it doesn't seem too conducive to a sense of belonging in the greater society. Or rather society starts to question their belonging to it.

When I think of it, it's kind of like a cast system. The haredim are the priests and philosophers while the rest are peasants and warriors.

[Beholder]

Total fertility rate for Israel is 2.75

Among Muslims in Israel, it's 3.84
Among Haredim it's 8.51 (Ashkenazi - 1996) and 6.57 (Sephardic - 1996)

So make you own conclusions. If these two sectors of the population are booming, and overall Israel has a fertility rate that is just above replacement (2.2 or thereabouts = replacement), what do you think the result would be without them?

Sources: Wikipedia, linking to this report (http://www.focusanthro.org/archive/2005-2006/katz0506.pdf)

Replacement is 2,not 2.2.
2.75 is from Cia factbook and is estimate for 2009.This particular number is wrong.;)

Anyway,in 2008 there was TFR 2.96 in Israel,2.88 among jews.Haredim,that dont go to army are 8-10%,lets say TFR for haredim 8.51.:)
(2.88*100-8.51*10)/(100-10)=2.254 TFR

Data from http://www.cbs.gov.il/reader/newhodaot/hodaa_template.html?hodaa=200911208

With is not estimate,but government statistic for 2008.;)

[Kaplanr]

But your argument falls on its face since they're sociological outliers - virtually no contribution to the tax base and same for service and military manpower. They're a demographic illusion. Everything Gilgoul and Tanks_alot said is true. Before you bring up Nahal Haredi as the exception, it's a statistical blip and it's participants are both laudable and not a genuine representation of the Israeli Haredi population. What Tal did was open the gates to non-Haredis to avoid conscription by being able to choose their words wisely and claim exemption.



Without the Haredim, Israel has a negative population growth rate. What do you think that means for a state surrounded by neighbors who's growth rates are off the charts? Try thinking fifty years ahead.

I think the economic drain is a far more significant problem than the military issue. The fact is that Israel stopped spending a dime on its military tomorrow, it would still maintain absolute superiority for the next few decades - there is no one who is even close. So what y'all Israelis should be thinking about is how to get these people employed.

[Rictor]

But your argument falls on its face since they're sociological outliers - virtually no contribution to the tax base and same for service and military manpower. They're a demographic illusion. Everything Gilgoul and Tanks_alot said is true. Before you bring up Nahal Haredi as the exception, it's a statistical blip and it's participants are both laudable and not a genuine representation of the Israeli Haredi population. What Tal did was open the gates to non-Haredis to avoid conscription by being able to choose their words wisely and claim exemption.


Look, I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but Israel does have more than enough soldiers. No potential agressor is even close to parity in military terms, and the gap grows daily. The entire Egyptian air force could be wiped out in a day by the IAF.

What I keep saying is that having children is a social good in an of itself. If the country is not demographically viable in the long term, no amount of F-16s is going to save it. The secular, urban part of Israel is essentially a Western liberal democracy. And like all such countries, it will face a point when its population starts to decline. This is true in most/all Western countries if we discount immigration, and it has to do with social factors which are nearly impossible to reverse. It is in your best interest to have a section of the population that is poor and religious, because those are ideal conditions for a high birth-rate.

I understand that virtually every Israeli member is against me on this, and that you guys have far more intimate knowledge than I do, but speaking as an impartial observer: these people are important to your society. You may not like them, you may find them strange and arrogant, but would you prefer a country populated by ultra Orthodox Jews or by Arabs? When push comes to shove, who do you think more embodies the values of Israel? Because the only thing keeping the Israeli Arab population from increasing from its current ~15% is the Haredim. They balance out the astronomical birth rates with their own, even more astronomical, birth rates. It's admirable that Israel has managed to maintain a positive growth rate even at this late stage, but it's not going to last forever.

Israel can survive with a weakened economy. It can survive with a weakened military. It can survive with diminished borders. What it can not survive, however, is 40-50% of the population being Arab.

And for the record, I'm totally in favour of making them do some sort of national service as a replacement for military service. And yeah, getting them employed is crucial too.

[gilgoul]

Look, I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but Israel does have more than enough soldiers. No potential agressor is even close to parity in military terms, and the gap grows daily. The entire Egyptian air force could be wiped out in a day by the IAF.

What I keep saying is that having children is a social good in an of itself. If the country is not demographically viable in the long term, no amount of F-16s is going to save it. The secular, urban part of Israel is essentially a Western liberal democracy. And like all such countries, it will face a point when its population starts to decline. This is true in most/all Western countries if we discount immigration, and it has to do with social factors which are nearly impossible to reverse. It is in your best interest to have a section of the population that is poor and religious, because those are ideal conditions for a high birth-rate.

I understand that virtually every Israeli member is against me on this, and that you guys have far more intimate knowledge than I do, but speaking as an impartial observer: these people are important to your society. You may not like them, you may find them strange and arrogant, but would you prefer a country populated by ultra Orthodox Jews or by Arabs? When push comes to shove, who do you think more embodies the values of Israel? Because the only thing keeping the Israeli Arab population from increasing from its current ~15% is the Haredim. They balance out the astronomical birth rates with their own, even more astronomical, birth rates. It's admirable that Israel has managed to maintain a positive growth rate even at this late stage, but it's not going to last forever.

Israel can survive with a weakened economy. It can survive with a weakened military. It can survive with diminished borders. What it can not survive, however, is 40-50% of the population being Arab.

And for the record, I'm totally in favour of making them do some sort of national service as a replacement for military service. And yeah, getting them employed is crucial too.

I understand, and strongly disagree with your pov, even thought it is well informed, it is basically flawed.
Independence is not important to the vast majority of those Hareidi population, is it the core of the life of all of us other Israelis.

You want to see an example of what a "chareidi State" would look like, go to Bnei Brak or Northern Jerusalem.
Us traditionalist and moderates and secular Israelis are leaving these "getthos" in droves, and if the State was to loose it's moderate and democratic character (Democracy is only a tool for most Chareidis, not a goal), I guess only few "valuable" people would wish to stay or defend such a state.
Objectively speaking, and I heard that from numerous ultra orthodox jews, there is more in common between the chareidi and Hamas vision of the world than between a secular Israeli jew (even a nationalist like me) and a Chareidi.

The Israel enterprise is to offer a shelter to every jew, and a state governed by elected representants and the rule of the Law to all of it's citizens and residents.
But it is now indispensable to rescind the "status quo" adopted by Ben Gurion in 1948 governing the relations of the State with the "men in Black".
It is of the utmost urgency to stop financing and close down education institutions that do not teach the common cursus and general knowledge, and force every man and woman living in this country to some sort of service, not to their particular community, but to the general good.
It is unbearable to see the Zionist pluralistic project being hijacked by groups of interests, and it is necessary to reaffirm the will and the need of the population to be governed by common laws, and not by religious or sectarian practices, otherwise, our enemies won't even need to push us to the sea, we'll do it by ourselves.

If anybody is not happy with this arrangement, they are free to leave, but there is no reason a democracy should watch itself dissolving into oblivion, seeing it's principles and rights being abused by people despising it, and renounce self defense under a skewed interpretation of it's own being.
Chareidis can keep reproducing like rabbits if they wish too, but in order to make out of their kids useful citizens, education and service laws need to be changed and hardened.
Citizens national voting right should be restricted to people who have completed their national or military service.

[Kaplanr]

Gilgoul, one correction to make on your otherwise excellent assessment. The "status-quo" was essentially abrogated about the time of the rise of Shas & Degel HaTorah, the Ramot Road demonstrations and the exponential growth in the number of Yeshiva deferments.

[Rictor]

I understand, and strongly disagree with your pov, even thought it is well informed, it is basically flawed.
Independence is not important to the vast majority of those Hareidi population, is it the core of the life of all of us other Israelis.

You want to see an example of what a "chareidi State" would look like, go to Bnei Brak or Northern Jerusalem.
Us traditionalist and moderates and secular Israelis are leaving these "getthos" in droves, and if the State was to loose it's moderate and democratic character (Democracy is only a tool for most Chareidis, not a goal), I guess only few "valuable" people would wish to stay or defend such a state.
Objectively speaking, and I heard that from numerous ultra orthodox jews, there is more in common between the chareidi and Hamas vision of the world than between a secular Israeli jew (even a nationalist like me) and a Chareidi.

The Israel enterprise is to offer a shelter to every jew, and a state governed by elected representants and the rule of the Law to all of it's citizens and residents.
But it is now indispensable to rescind the "status quo" adopted by Ben Gurion in 1948 governing the relations of the State with the "men in Black".
It is of the utmost urgency to stop financing and close down education institutions that do not teach the common cursus and general knowledge, and force every man and woman living in this country to some sort of service, not to their particular community, but to the general good.
It is unbearable to see the Zionist pluralistic project being hijacked by groups of interests, and it is necessary to reaffirm the will and the need of the population to be governed by common laws, and not by religious or sectarian practices, otherwise, our enemies won't even need to push us to the sea, we'll do it by ourselves.

If anybody is not happy with this arrangement, they are free to leave, but there is no reason a democracy should watch itself dissolving into oblivion, seeing it's principles and rights being abused by people despising it, and renounce self defense under a skewed interpretation of it's own being.
Chareidis can keep reproducing like rabbits if they wish too, but in order to make out of their kids useful citizens, education and service laws need to be changed and hardened.
Citizens national voting right should be restricted to people who have completed their national or military service.

Sure, you can say that these guys are like the Israeli Hamas. Frankly, I don't know enough to say that's true or false. But Israel will still be Israel if it slides halfway to theocracy; it's unlikely that all of the skilled labour will flee, or that those who remain will not become equally skilled. It will not still be Israel, however, if the non-Jews outnumber the Jews. So the unpalatable choice is this: consent to live in a non-Jewish Israel, or consent to live in an Israel where the old Labour-Zionist status quo has been renegotiated in favour of more religious/nationalist influence on society. Or to put it even more simply: you fly the planes and run the economy, they make sure that the amount of baby "Davids" outnumbers the amount of baby "Mohammeds". Look at it this way, what is easier: to make a young Haredi man productive (taxes, national service etc) or to make a young Arab man a Zionist? It's possible to do the former, but almost impossible to do the latter.

You, the "moderate and secular" demographic, will eventually fall prey to the same trends as your brothers in Europe and elsewhere. You marry later, or not at all, have fewer kids, or none at all, get used to a higher standard of living which you are not willing to compromise. You would rather buy a new car than have another kid. And that's not a policy that can be reversed, it's not a problem that can be legislated away - it has to do with the way you live. In most countries this is not such a big deal, because the integrity of the nation does not depend so singularly on demographics - Germany can afford to let in two million Turks and still remain German. Israel can not.

My own analysis is this: because Israel has been attacked so often, it has grown superbly talented at defending itself militarily. And now you've over-compensated, and still you keep buying airplanes and tanks as if your very existence depended on it. But it doesn't. There is no one left to attack you, no one credible anyway, and you have F-15s and nukes and subs and commandos to deal with these threats. You also have a great economy, awesome high-tech sector and what are arguably the best diplomats and lobbyists in the world. But you have completely neglected to look at demographic situation. There is no great pool of Jews left to draw on. Unless the USA suddenly turns Gestapo, the "miracle" of the 90s will not be repeated (meaning the Russian influx of immigrant). So the long term situation is not a cheery one. Not dreadful, mind you, but not to your advantage either.

[gilgoul]

Gilgoul, one correction to make on your otherwise excellent assessment. The "status-quo" was essentially abrogated about the time of the rise of Shas & Degel HaTorah, the Ramot Road demonstrations and the exponential growth in the number of Yeshiva deferments.

My bad,
I guess only official Israel is still under this illusion, considering the attention politicians pay to every fart of some specific "sectors" of the population.

[Kaplanr]

Facing reality sucks. Whichever political whore I am from the right or left, G-d forbid I say or do anything that may upset Shas, Degel, Aguda, etc. but that's old news.

[the_Wicked]

My support to these guys.

[LEGEND]

Is there any statistic into how many haredi jews leave ultra-orthodox lifestyle and become just regular religious jews or secular?

[gilgoul]

Is there any statistic into how many haredi jews leave ultra-orthodox lifestyle and become just regular religious jews or secular?

none available, there is a foundation that tries to focus on the people who left the religious life style, and even they don't know the numbers, but estimate roughtly at around a 1000/year.

[Kaplanr]

Not a number they're going to promote since it might force someone to really ask about how many people are truly being subsidized. Same is true for other data - disabilities, almost any kind of in-house issues and problems including criminal activity and ****** abuse.

[paul215]

there was an ex haerdi who tried out for the ultimate fighter on spike this year... he got his ass kicked but he had so much ink haha

[Kaplanr]

Interesting observation of the statistical place of the Haredim in Israeli society from the J-Post. http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=172982

Taub report: Economy faces existential problems
By RON FRIEDMAN
13/04/2010 02:38


Israel lagging behind Western countries in non-employment rates and education reform.
Talkbacks (1) A 350-page report released Tuesday by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies paints a grim picture of Israel’s prospects for economic sustainability and warns of increasing gaps between Israel and the developed countries of the world.

In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, the report’s editor, Prof. Dan Ben-David, highlighted what he felt were the report’s main points.

“In some respects, what’s taking place in Israel is like the boiling frog syndrome,” said Ben-David. “If you put a frog into boiling water, it will immediately jump out of the pot, but if you put it in the pot with cool water and light a fire under it, the frog won’t notice it’s being cooked until it’s too late to resist. We are to a large extent witnessing some long-run trajectory in Israel that is very similar. It’s happening beneath the radar. We know that we have problems in several spheres, like poverty, education and inequality. That’s not news. The big news is the extent of the problem and the rate that it is progressing.”

Ben-David said that even though he had been studying the issues for 20 years, he’d had no idea how fast things were progressing and how “severe and existential” the problems were until he began working on the report.

One of the most telling statistics in the report is the country’s rate of non-employment. Not to be confused with unemployment, which is roughly on par with OECD countries, non-employment refers to people who are not looking for work. Here, said Ben-David, we are in a league of our own.

“When you look at rates of people who are not working, primarily men aged 30-54, you see that at nearly 19 percent, Israel is way above any of the other Western country, with the OECD average standing at just under 12%,” he pointed out.

According to the statistics compiled by the Central Bureau of Statistics and OECD figures, the closest country to Israel in non-employment is Spain, with 14.5%. The lowest non-employment rates are enjoyed by Switzerland, Iceland and Japan, at slightly over 6%.

Breaking down the non-employment numbers according to sector shows that non-employment is above OECD average in all but one sector: Jewish, non-haredi women. Arab men are above average with 27%, haredi men are well above average with 65%, and even secular Jewish men, at 15%, show a higher average than other developed countries.

This information is worrisome to Ben-David, especially looking to the future and observing that the two sectors of society with the lowest rates of participation in the work force are the sectors that are growing most rapidly.

“In 1960, only 15% of the kids were either in Arab [or] haredi schools. Today we are talking about an even split between haredi and Arab on one hand and state schools on the other,” he pointed out.

“To the extent that today’s kids will have their parents’ work habits, who will pay for this? Who will be able to? If you fast-forward 30 years, extrapolating from the rates of change we’ve seen in our educational system in the last decade alone, it means that three-quarters of the kids will be Arab or haredi and just 14% will be in the state schools. But that won’t happen. It can’t happen, because it’s unsustainable.”

Ben-David explained the rise in non-employment among Israeli Arabs as the result of the massive import of foreign workers in the 1990s, but said that what he found mind-boggling was that the rate of non-employment among haredim has been steadily rising for the last 30 years, from 20% in 1979 to nearly 70% in 2009.

“Not only is that group of the population growing very quickly, but their work habits are declining just as fast,” said Ben-David.

The solution, according to Ben-David, is education.

“If we wait until we can no longer afford [to provide] non-working lifestyles, it will be too late,” he said. “We won’t be able to cut them off because they will not have the proper education to enable them to integrate into the modern workforce.”

However, the solution is also in dire straits. Comparative studies show that Israeli students are consistently ranked lowest among developed countries in core curriculum subjects.

“The kids they are competing with educationally today are the grownups they will be competing with professionally in another decade or two. The starting-off point we are giving them is too low,” said Ben-David.

On the bright side, he said, Israel is in a better position than most other developing countries, because it already has all the necessary tools in place to improve the situation.

“It is not beyond our capabilities. We are the anomaly of the Western world. On the one hand, we look as bad as I just showed you, but on the other hand, we have all the institutions that a country needs that are basically at the envelope of human knowledge. We have universities that are on the leading edge. We have a hi-tech sector. Our medicine is at the leading edge. Everything is here. All we have to do is pull out the stopgaps and let the knowledge flow down,” said Ben David. “If we do, just imagine where we can go.”

The solution, according to Ben David, is nothing short of a comprehensive systemic change.

“It’s not just employment reform or educational reform. It’s got to be systemic,” he said.

Ben-David proposes change in three policy spheres, the first being the individual and the firm.

“As far as the individual is concerned, we have to move from non-work incentives to work incentives, but even if you force people to work, they will go hungry if they don’t have the tools to succeed in the modern economy. We must give them the tools to upgrade their education,” he said.

It is also important to deal with the firms, Ben-David continued.

“Employers must realize that the society we live in is what we have,” he explained. “The firms have to deal with it and work with the Israelis that they have and find the comparative advantages that they can.”

The second policy sphere is the conditions that enable productivity. Things like extending the school day to enable parents to work full-time jobs and improving public transportation so it will be fast and cheap are examples of ways to create a good environment for growth.

The third sphere is major educational reform, to which the report dedicates a whole chapter and which includes things like higher wages and requirements for teachers, establishing a mandatory core curriculum, merit-based bonuses for good schools, and additional involvement in education at the local level.

“Just think of where we are with all the negative things I’ve mentioned, and imagine where we could be if everything was done right. It’s within our grasp,” insisted Ben-David. “The key is electoral reform, because in the current political climate, nothing can change. Sectoral and personal interests dominate, while national interests fall by the sidelines.”