Greece floats solution for Macedonia name dispute

[Derbedeu]

Greece floats solution for Macedonia name dispute

ANDREW WILLIS
Today @ 09:14 CET


A senior Greek official has indicated that Athens is ready to accept the name 'Northern Macedonia' for its northern neighbour, in a development that could bring an end to the 19-year-old title dispute that has hampered Skopje's EU membership ambitions.
"The name 'Northern Macedonia' fits with the settlement as envisaged" by Athens, Greek deputy foreign minister Dimitris Droutsas told national media on Monday (5 April).


Read more at:


http://euobserver.com/9/29814

[Danik]

Does that not then imply that Greek Macedonia and FYROM are one entity with a northern and southern part?

[JCR]

The very name Macedonia implies that they're one entity.

Btw
In before the Balkans

[Jobu]

Why not West Bulgaria?

It would be more accurate.

[YevgenyP]

They can use old way - type it M@cedonia or Maced0nia

[Hyde]

Why not West Bulgaria?

It would be more accurate.

Because it's South Serbia...

sorry, couldn't resist p-)



@Topic
Not a good "solution" in my eyes... somewhere down the road, some FYR Macedonian could think that they are the real Macedonians and that Greece should give back it's "southern" part.... or the other way around.
I think Vardar Macedonia would be the a good neutral name for that piece of land.

[Dercius]

So this is what Greek officials spend heir time in. ;) just joking
If macedonians accept they will have the longest country name ever Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Northern Macedonia :)

[Gentius]

Or Ilirida? p-)

[IconOfEvi]

Anything but FYROM

[artjomh]

Somehow, the "United States of America" can exist without people erroneously assuming that this country control all states on both American continents.

I guess there are countries you can bully with silly demands, and countries you cannot bully with silly demands.

Macedonia seems to belong to the former category.

[G3SG1]

The ''North Macedonia '' solution was first mentioned as an option by Fyrom govt controlled papers not Greeks. I personally prefer the name ''NotMacedonia''.:)


There are more serious matters than the name like the ongoing Turkish- Fyrom -Albanian ''axis''. The Fyromians have chosen to allow Turks to play ball in their turf in order to press Greece diplomatically.

They forget that Albanians in Fyrom and Albania are the most valued Turkish allies and in the end the Albanian minority in Fyrom will benefit from the Turkish influence and not the Slavic element.

We ,on the other side have a good thing going with Serbia and Bulgaria (who also has a problem with Fyrom)

[G3SG1]

Somehow, the "United States of America" can exist without people erroneously assuming that this country control all states on both American continents.

I guess there are countries you can bully with silly demands, and countries you cannot bully with silly demands.

Macedonia seems to belong to the former category.



I consider it a compliment if a foreign country wants to be named after a part of my country. But the problem is that they want also my hometown.:)

[Redbeard]

Because it's South Serbia...

sorry, couldn't resist p-)



Makedonci su Srbi sa govornata mana, tako da...

Residents of FYRM are Serbs with a speech impediment so....

As for the question at hand, I'm stumped. Though Vardarska Makedonija sounds nice.

[Gentius]

Makedonci su Srbi sa govornata mana, tako da...

Residents of FYRM are Serbs with a speech impediment so....

As for the question at hand, I'm stumped. Though Vardarska Makedonija sounds nice.


Seriously, they are more related to Bulgarians then Serbs. Sure there are Serb minority, but lets not exaggerate.

[Wildgoose]

How about "Macedonia v.2" or "Macedonia Lite" ?

[Ordie]

Why not change the name of the country to reflect how it is spelled and ****ounced in the local language.

Or call it Upper Macedonia.

[V.I.D.]

Why not change the name of the country to reflect how it is spelled and ****ounced in the local language.

Or call it Upper Macedonia.

So if they play the soccer game, then the commentator goes: "....and Upper Macedonians are currently down with three goals in their net".
I like that, it's very poetic.

Seriously though, in my opinion North Macedonia sounds fairly inoffensive to both and could be the "saving face solution" to both sides. FYROManians still get to be called Macedonians in colloquial speech and Greeks don't feel ripped off of their culture/territory/history and identity.

[G3SG1]

So if they play the soccer game, then the commentator goes: "....and Upper Macedonians are currently down with three goals in their net".
I like that, it's very poetic.

Seriously though, in my opinion North Macedonia sounds fairly inoffensive to both and could be the "saving face solution" to both sides. FYROManians still get to be called Macedonians in colloquial speech and Greeks don't feel ripped off of their culture/territory/history and identity.

Like many other times discussed, the problem it's not the name itself. It's the hostile policy of the Fyromians who are claiming Greek territories in a manner that is considered an aggression in international law. I know that now they are not a serious threat but it's nice to deal with a problem before and not after.

[Mordoror]

Residents of FYRM are Serbs with a speech impediment so....


iI personally prefer the name ''NotMacedonia''

interesting crap posts
you guys are very wise
what about taking care of your economy first ???

[Jobu]

They should call it ICantBelieveItsNotMacedonia!

[michailk]

Why not call it Former Democratic Republic of South of Serbia+North of Greece+West of Bulgaria+East of Albania so everybody gets something. Well that's humor.

[G3SG1]

interesting crap posts
you guys are very wise
what about taking care of your economy first ???

Thinking of the amount of Euros we have invested in Fyrom you should pray all day for our debt reduction program.:)

[G3SG1]

Why not call it Former Democratic Republic of South of Serbia+North of Greece+West of Bulgaria+East of Albania so everybody gets something. Well that's humor.

No it's a good thought. You can add : the Vardarska thing that Tito named Macedonia.

[Ordie]

Why not sell the country's naming rights for the highest bidder.

McDonald could buy the rights and call it Big MACedonia.

Apple could call it iMACedonia.

[G3SG1]

Why not sell the country's naming rights for the highest bidder.

McDonald could buy the rights and call it Big MACedonia.

Apple could call it iMACedonia.


Get the Mac out of hererofl

[Mordoror]

Why not sell the country's naming rights for the highest bidder.

McDonald could buy the rights and call it Big MACedonia.

Apple could call it iMACedonia.

Ordie i thought you were more wise on that forum (at least yours posts on other issues were more built up and deeply thinked than right here)

as for the others, well why expect from Greeks newbies members (although some are/were valuable) some though and arguments rather than the usual BS and bullying
a true demonstration of the pinnacle of civilisation
As this issue is turning again on a nationalistic flamefest (and i am just waiting the other side to come in with the same wises arguments) i just pray for a total annihilation of this thread

[Bathinus]

Macedonia is a region. FYROM has one chunk, Greece has the other, Bulgaria has a little.

So regardless of what the people's origin is, the land they're on is technily Macedonia (or part of it). And North Macedonia makes perfect sense. I suppose "Vardar Macedonia" would be good as well.

West Bulgaria makes 0 sense, since there is a country called Bulgaria, not just some ancient region. That comparison would only be valid if the FYROMians were asking for their country to be called "North Greece". Greeks take the "they're stealing Greek culture" stuff way too far, as if modern Greek identity have that much to do with Antic Macedonians either.

[thend]

To all our neighboors-->117529

From Macedonia with love...

117528

[Stormy]

What about a more antiquated name relating to that particular region, "Dardania" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

[Bathinus]

What about a more antiquated name relating to that particular region, "Dardania" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

Why would you call it Dardania? Ancient Dardania is today's Kosovo and Southern Serbia. And it was populated by Illyrians or Thraco-Illyrian mix....not Antic Maceodnians or Greeks or whoever else.

And today Dardania is already associated with Kosovo, you'd have the same situation with Kosovo Albanians claiming FYROM is stealing their history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Kosovo-Dardania.svg/600px-Flag_of_Kosovo-Dardania.svg.png

[G3SG1]

Greeks take the "they're stealing Greek culture" stuff way too far,.


Yeah we exaggerate a little. Baseball cap unofficially(?) worn by Fyrom ISAF contingent members.Note that( among the other Greek territories claimed) are the three ''fingers'' included are Halkidiki the known Greek tourist resort .


117530
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2281/5fkza0a88f28cae0399a84b.jpg)

[Bathinus]

Yeah we exaggerate a little. Baseball cap unofficially worn by Fyrom ISAF contigent members.Note that the three ''fingers'' included are Halkidiki , a Greek region:


117530
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2281/5fkza0a88f28cae0399a84b.jpg)

That's not fair, since my comment isn't about 'Greater Macedonia', but just FYROM and the name issue. I'm not saying don't be mad about their anti-greek natioanlism or whatever else. But again, seriosly, realisticly and honestly, what do modern Greeks have to do with Antic Maceodnians? Language? No. Blood? Lets not get crazy. Culture? No. Religion? No. It's part of Greek history, but like it or not it's part of FYROM's history too since they live on that land. So what exactly are they stealing from YOU? They can't pretend Antic Macedonians didn't exist on that land when loking at the history of their region and state. But I do agree with you they shou;dn't be claiming they ARE Antic Macedonians. That's silly.

[Stormy]

Bathinus, what you think about "Paeonia" ? Which corresponds with most of modern day FYROM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_%28kingdom%29

[thend]

Yeah we exaggerate a little. Baseball cap unofficially(?) worn by Fyrom ISAF contingent members.Note that( among the other Greek territories claimed) are the three ''fingers'' included are Halkidiki the known Greek tourist resort .


117530
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2281/5fkza0a88f28cae0399a84b.jpg)

This video has been filmed during the Greek military parade of March 25th 2010. There you clearly see the special force regiment of the Greek Marine chanting racist slogans towards neighboring Albania and its people but also towards Macedonia and Turkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4kJXLbrCs

Want me to go on??

[G3SG1]

But again, seriosly, realisticly and honestly, what do modern Greeks have to do with Antic Maceodnians? Language? No. Blood? Lets not get crazy. Culture? No. Religion? No. It's part of Greek history, but like it or not it's part of FYROM's history too since they live on that land. So what exactly are they stealing from YOU? They can't pretend Antic Macedonians didn't exist on that land when loking at the history of their region and state. But I do agree with you they shou;dn't be claiming they ARE Antic Macedonians. That's silly.


If i understand your post you are saying that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks?

[G3SG1]

This video has been filmed during the Greek military parade of March 25th 2010. There you clearly see the special force regiment of the Greek Marine chanting racist slogans towards neighboring Albania and its people but also towards Macedonia and Turkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4kJXLbrCs

Want me to go on??

Do you know the physics terms, action and reaction?

[thend]

The first is that there is not one signature on any of these treaties by a Macedonian Government, Macedonian organization, Macedonian individual or anyone appointed to represent the Macedonian people.
Since the Macedonian people were not signatories to these documents, many Macedonians cannot see how there could be any expectation that the Macedonian people should agree with or be bound by these documents.
To take one example - the Treaty of Bucharest that divided Macedonia between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. It is a fact that Macedonians have never accepted this Treaty and never will. Macedonians find it extraordinarily unjust that the fate of their land and their fate as a people was decided without their input or consent. The Treaty does not have the consent of the native population, and particularly the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia, nor of the other ethnic groups who lived in these lands at the time. Without this consent, there will always be the shadow of moral illegitimacy over the Treaty and over the initial occupation and continued possession of these lands by Greece and Bulgaria.



the Treaty of Bucharest will end soon!!Maybe thats why greece is so nervous,maybe..

[G3SG1]

Anyway i would like to contribute the US state department thesis on the subject in 1944.




Document No 1

U.S STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations Vol. VIII
Washington D.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers*
The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive action at this time.


The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. "This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consiousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".


The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largery inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macodonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian Forces" against Greece.
The Department would appreciate any information pertiment to this subject which may come to your attention.

STETTINIUS

[thend]

Do you know the physics terms, action and reaction?
Newton's third law of motion is naturally applied to collisions between two objects. In a collision between two objects, both objects experience forces which are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. Such forces often cause one object to speed up (gain momentum) and the other object to slow down (economic crisis)

[G3SG1]

Newton's third law of motion is naturally applied to collisions between two objects. In a collision between two objects, both objects experience forces which are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. Such forces often cause one object to speed up (gain momentum) and the other object to slow down (economic crisis)


God Bless you mate- you made me lough. Gain momentumrofl

[Redbeard]

Residents of FYRM are Serbs with a speech impediment so....

interesting crap posts
you guys are very wise


Can you lighten up a bit? It is an age old joke in South Serbia. The thing is residents of FYRM are such a mix between Serbs and Bulgars that you can call them a nation different from both.

[thend]

God Bless you mate- you made me lough. Gain momentumrofl
Ahh Newton,Newton,let me ask you something have you been in Macedonia ever??

[Bathinus]

If i understand your post you are saying that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks?

Well first, you have to define what is a Greek. What a Greek is today, is reeeeeeeeeeeally different than what a Greek was 2,500 years ago.

But no I'm not saying antic Macedonians aren't Greeks, they were. Even if their origins were at first seperate, it's a historical fact they were Hellenized, and thus culturaly and lignuisticly ancient Greek.

What I am saying is this, modern Greeks don't have that much to do with ancient Greeks. Which has been an obvious fact for quite a long time. It's the "Greek name" that has kept the connection alive for the most part. If French people today were called Gauls, they'd be claiming direct flawless continuity too. I know Greeks might not like to hear that, but it's reality. Greece is a large country (by Balkan standards), and over such along period of time has absorbed so many peoples and so many customs and traditions you can't POSSIBLY claim some "pure" Greek continuity or blood. Just not possible. So when someone says "they're stealing our culture", what culture is that exactly? Your modern Greek culture has no similarity with Greek Macedonian cuture from ancient times. Greek has almost always meant someone belonging to Greek culture and language, never some collective blood so you can't claim that either. Even today Greece works hard on assimilation to hellenize any minorities. Not to mention what an impact the Slavic invasions had on Greece, ESPECIALY the area around Thessaloniki.

My point is, lets not go overboard with the whole ancient stuff when speaking on modern problems because it's kind of corny.

[Karaahmetoglu]

The ''North Macedonia '' solution was first mentioned as an option by Fyrom govt controlled papers not Greeks. I personally prefer the name ''NotMacedonia''.:)


There are more serious matters than the name like the ongoing Turkish- Fyrom -Albanian ''axis''. The Fyromians have chosen to allow Turks to play ball in their turf in order to press Greece diplomatically.

They forget that Albanians in Fyrom and Albania are the most valued Turkish allies and in the end the Albanian minority in Fyrom will benefit from the Turkish influence and not the Slavic element.

We ,on the other side have a good thing going with Serbia and Bulgaria (who also has a problem with Fyrom)

While Albania may be an ally(?), not the most valued ally to Turkey.

This thread is about Greece and Macedonia, you somehow have to stick Turkey into this? Nice thread derailment attempt.

[Ordie]

Ordie i thought you were more wise on that forum (at least yours posts on other issues were more built up and deeply thinked than right here)

Lighten up.

Can't I have some fun?

Why not merge the country with Scotland and call it MacEdonia
I wonder if they can play the bagpipes and wear kilts.

[Bathinus]

What do Greek members think is a fair solution? What name if not North Macedonia? Like I said to me personaly North Macedonia makes sense bcause that region LITTERALY IS Northern Macedonia.

[Aor]

What do Greek members think is a fair solution? What name if not North Macedonia? Like I said to me personaly North Macedonia makes sense bcause that region LITTERALY IS Northern Macedonia.

No it isn't if you consider the boundaries of Ancient Macedonia. The region FYROM has was mostly considered Paionia. If our northern Slavic neighbors want an ancient name they could get that.

[thend]

And again nobody asks Macedonians.
Why not using double formula as we proposed.Let Greece call us whatever they like and all the others call us Macedonia??

[ting]

I'm calling the Country Macedonia, I don't care what the Greeks or the Macedonians say. It is Macedonia. End of story I have decided for both countries so that they may focus on other things.

[Bathinus]

No it isn't if you consider the boundaries of Ancient Macedonia. The region FYROM has was mostly considered Paionia. If our northern Slavic neighbors want an ancient name they could get that.

Be fair, it's both. The Maceodnia region, as we define it today, is chopped up mainly between 3 countries. FYROM, Greece and BUlgaria. And the Northern part of that region is definetly FYROM.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png

You gotta remember Macedonia isn't JUST ancient, it's also modern. Dalmatia was a huge Illyrian province in Roman times too, but today it's a small region on the coast. No region in history has always had the exact same borders...

But hey, I don't see that much of a problem with Paeonia either, but they do. See it from their view, it's not easy to overnight change to some new name.

[Aor]

And again nobody asks Macedonians.
Why not using double formula as we proposed.Let Greece call us whatever they like and all the others call us Macedonia??

Any more silly notions? The term Macedonia is ethnically, historically, and culturally as Greek as the Parthenon. Anything that denies that fact on a regional or an international scale cannot be accepted. The term Nothern Macedonia was discussed as a geographical term. No one here is happy about it here thou since it still has the term Macedonia in it. That can be used as someone mentioned by the Slavs in FYROM to raise ethnic or other claims on Greece that are absolutely baseless and are purely constructed.

[Bathinus]

Any more silly notions? The term Macedonia is ethnically, historically, and culturally as Greek as the Parthenon. Anything that denies that fact on a regional or an international scale cannot be accepted. The term Nothern Macedonia was discussed as a geographical term. No one here is happy about it here thou since it still has the term Macedonia in it. That can be used as someone mentioned by the Slavs in FYROM to raise ethnic or other claims on Greece that are absolutely baseless and are purely constructed.

Yea but..cmon, reaisticly what chance does a tiny group of " macedonian nationalists" have to actualy claim some land from greece? It's a fantasy.

Peple in the Balkans claim land left and right ANYWAY.....that won't change

[Aor]

Be fair, it's both. The Maceodnia region, as we define it today, is chopped up mainly between 3 countries. FYROM, Greece and BUlgaria. And the Northern part of that region is definetly FYROM.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png

You gotta remember Macedonia isn't JUST ancient, it's also modern. Dalmatia was a huge Illyrian province in Roman times too, but today it's a small region on the coast. No region in history has always had the exact same borders...

But hey, I don't see that much of a problem with Paeonia either, but they do. See it from their view, it's not easy to overnight change to some new name.

True, but you have to consider what the term Macedonia meant through the ages and the various powers that governed the land. For us it has largely to do with ethnical, cultural, historical facts that start long before the descend of the Slavic tribes in the 6th century AD. Macedonia is the region of Archelaos, Philip and Alexander. A region and a term as Greek as Sparta or Athens. There is a continuity to it for thousands of years and for anyone to understand how we define Macedonia one has to look at ancient Macedonia.

[Ordie]

Why not call it Blakavaonia.

[G3SG1]

Well first, you have to define what is a Greek. What a Greek is today, is reeeeeeeeeeeally different than what a Greek was 2,500 years ago.

Ι don't quote your entire post since is a bad reproduction of the known Fallmerayer theory ,apparently very popular in some Slavic institutions who try to show us as descentants of Slavs and others.:)

We are the descendants of the ancient Greeks and in terms of DNA i advise you to search about the examining of ancient Greek skeletons and modern ones by various foreign genetists. You will be surprised.

[Aor]

Yea but..cmon, reaisticly what chance does a tiny group of " macedonian nationalists" have to actualy claim some land from greece? It's a fantasy.

Peple in the Balkans claim land left and right ANYWAY.....that won't change

And a nation should just rest and idly sit by while its history and presence in the area past and present are distorted and questioned?

National states are based on a national idea and ours is based on historical facts that reach back to 2500BC at least. We won't throw that down the tube because some wannabes claim something they are not.

And no, Greece claims no land belonging to any of its neighbors.

[Bathinus]

And a nation should just rest and idly sit by while its history and presence in the area past and present are distorted and questioned?

National states are based on a national idea and ours is based on historical facts that reach back to 2500BC at least. We won't throw that down the tube because some wannabes claim something they are not.

And no, Greece claims no land belonging to any of its neighbors.

Plenty of Greeks claim FYROM :D

And northern Epirus in Albania.

And islands in Turkey.

there's wacky nationalists on both sides

[thend]

At the end even if the name is changed we are still gonna feel like Macedonians and nobody gonna change that.Whatever name you gonna put on you will never change our nationality,period

[Aor]

Plenty of Greeks claim FYROM :D

And northern Epirus in Albania.

And islands in Turkey.

there's wacky nationalists on both sides

Define "Plenty".

Nothern Epirus has a Greek majority and hosts the ethnic Greek minority in Albania. Do you see any Greek tanks ready to attack?

Islands in Turkey. You must mean Imbros and Tenedos. Ethnic Grrek minorities on both that have almost been extinguished. No claims there either. Status is defined accorfing to the Lausanne Treaty.

You'll find those "claims" only by some ultra-right wing factions that cannot even raise 1% in the elections. Even the right wing LAOS party doesn't make such claims.

[Bathinus]

Ι don't quote your entire post since is a bad reproduction of the known Fallmerayer theory ,apparently very popular in some Slavic institutions who try to show us as descentants of Slavs and others.http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/../images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

Ilet me state right off the bat I feel no "Slavic" kinship with maceodnians or anyone else. Zero. Such a thing doesn't exist for me and mine. It's a stupid concept. It's like the English feeling kinship with the Germans cuz of the same linguistic family. Second, I don't see how it's a theory to claim modern greeks obviosly aren't the same thing as ancient greeks. Not even the language is. I never claimed Greeks are descendants of Slavs, I said Slavs had an impact on some areas. It's just historical facts, denying them is silly.


We are the descendants of the ancient Greeks ( actually it feels great also to know where you coming from and not spaculate about how the f did you come in this area in 6 century and in terms of DNA i advise you to search about the examining of ancient Greek skeletons and modern ones by various foreign genetists. You will be surprised.Well, no, you're not. Only partialy you are. But if it makes you feel better to "insult" Slavic speakers in the Balkans, because they arrived in the 6th century.....okie dokie.

Oh it's been geneticly proven modern greeks are the same as ancient greeks? REALLY? Show me. Plz. Because that would be quite a miracle. The only people alive who haven't been influenced by all the people who have conquered and invaded them over thousands of years. And I don't mean just in ONE isolated area, but all of greece. I'm sure some isolated area sobviosl remained untouched. But all of Greece? or even the majority? This is ridiculous and no serious historian would support it. Not even Greek ones who are sane. During their war for independance Greeks didn't even know WHO Alexander the Great was, they neded western hellenophiles to tell them. Hellenophiles who came to fight "alongside Leonidas and his 300", only to find the Greeks were "more Turk" then the Turks themsevles.



As for your question who is considered Greek a good answer would be the one who is not a Slav ( comes from the slavus-slave servant in the Byzantine. No offense. Ah, I see. So all non Slavic speakers are Greeks. Makes sense Lol

But I'm sure the Serb members around here will be amused to see their "greek brothers" calling them slaves.

Cheers friendo!

[G3SG1]

Plenty of Greeks claim FYROM :D
there's wacky nationalists on both sides


Actually we are interested in what the official state wants. And when Milosevic offered us the partition of Fyrom with Greece and Serbia take a half each we denied.

[G3SG1]

But I'm sure the Serb members around here will be amused to see their "greek brothers" calling them slaves.

Cheers friendo!


Ethnonym

The word "Slav" is derived from the Middle English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) word sclave, which was imported from Medieval Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Latin) sclavus and Byzantine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek) σκλάβος sklábos (variant of σλάβήνος sklabēnos; plural: σλάβήνοι sklabēnoi)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples

[Bathinus]

Ethnonym

The word "Slav" is derived from the Middle English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) word sclave, which was imported from Medieval Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Latin) sclavus and Byzantine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek) σκλάβος sklábos (variant of σλάβήνος sklabēnos; plural: σλάβήνοι sklabēnoi)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples

...........................and?

Maybe you shoudl read the rest of that article that you're quoting.

[Aor]

Oh it's been geneticly proven modern greeks are the same as ancient greeks? REALLY? Show me. Plz. Because that would be quite a miracle. The only people alive who haven't been influenced by all the people who have conquered and invaded them over thousands of years. And I don't mean just in ONE isolated area, but all of greece. I'm sure some isolated area sobviosl remained untouched. But all of Greece? or even the majority? This is ridiculous and no serious historian would support it. Not even Greek ones who are sane. During their war for independance Greeks didn't even know WHO Alexander the Great was, they neded western hellenophiles to tell them. Hellenophiles who came to fight "alongside Leonidas and his 300", only to find the Greeks were "more Turk" then the Turks themsevles.



Come on Bathinus. There is genetic research that indicates a large degree of genetic homogeneity to the Greek population and similarities to the genome of ancient Greeks. That were minglings with other peoples that came in the area, but there is a genetic and more importantly linguistic, ethnical and cultural continuity.

and no the Philhellenes did not invent Greek nationalism. It is insulting just to mention it. There was national education and a national feeling in the Greek population though it was brutally suppressed and was disorganized. That we survived was mainly due to the Church that conserved Greek traditions and knowledge. Only rich Greeks in the diaspora or merchants could afford an education without prosecution. During the war for independence we knew who we were where we came from and what we are entitled to. We didn't rise out of spite or because somebody incited rebellion.

Keep propaganda and wishful thinking to yourself and if you want to learn some facts open a book.

[Shurik SST]

Ethnonym

The word "Slav" is derived from the Middle English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) word sclave, which was imported from Medieval Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Latin) sclavus and Byzantine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek) σκλάβος sklábos (variant of σλάβήνος sklabēnos; plural: σλάβήνοι sklabēnoi)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples

This is one of those stupid things that people like to quote and Wikipedia should edit.

Is there a group of people who ever called themselves by what somebody else called them? No. Do you think ancient Slavs in Poland or Russia, for example, figured English (WTF) call them Slaves so they started calling themselves Slavs? Now what is retarded. It really has to do with some attitudes the West can have towards the East.

The name Slav is older than the English language itself so it would be hard to "derive from Middle English".

Anyway, carry on.

[Zarkus]

Why not call it "Republic of north of the country that used to be part of the Ottoman empire for so long that they started to look like them now in serious debt and needs something else to dangle in front of the Yunani populis instead of selling their islands to rich Arabs so they can pay their farmers who are on strike every second day blocking roads and setting banks on fire because their government is corrupt Macedonia"!? It's nice and compact... wouldn't you say?

[Zarkus]

A nice reed in The Economist.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15766873
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15810902

And since someone mentioned genetics...

Post from iGENEA to 02.10.2008

Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18%Thraker
2% Vikings
20% slavs

Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen

Bulgaria:
49%Thraker
11%macedonian
15%slavs
15%hellenen
5% pheonician

Macedonia:
30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavs

Bosnia
40% Illyrer
4% Thraker
20% Germanen
6% Hunnen
15% Slawen
15% Kelten

Serbien:
30% Slawen
9% Phönizier
21% Illyrer
14% Kelten
8% Hellenen
2% wikinger
18% Germanen

[Zarkus]

Can you lighten up a bit? It is an age old joke in South Serbia. The thing is residents of FYRM are such a mix between Serbs and Bulgars that you can call them a nation different from both.

Oh, i know the joke... the people that live in the southern part of Serboslavia (the part bordering Kosovo) are a mix of macedonians and... well macedonians since they all speak macedonian-ish. That must be the speech impediment that your referring to.

[V.I.D.]

Ah, I see. So all non Slavic speakers are Greeks. Makes sense Lol

But I'm sure the Serb members around here will be amused to see their "greek brothers" calling them slaves.

Cheers friendo!

I see previously banned user called "TheBalkan" (now "Bathinus") can't resist spouting some anti-Serb crappola in just about every thread. Most Serbian people do consider Greeks as close as their true brothers and rightfully so. Personally, they have my full support in this issue with FYROManians. If anything, as old European nations, we get rightfully annoyed when nationalities created in 1990s start re-inventing parts of our history. Even though you're not one of the most intelligent trolls around, I am sure you can still recognize what I mean by this.

[Aor]

A nice reed in The Economist.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15766873
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15810902

And since someone mentioned genetics...

Post from iGENEA to 02.10.2008

Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18%Thraker
2% Vikings
20% slavs

Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen

Bulgaria:
49%Thraker
11%macedonian
15%slavs
15%hellenen
5% pheonician

Macedonia:
30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavs

Bosnia
40% Illyrer
4% Thraker
20% Germanen
6% Hunnen
15% Slawen
15% Kelten

Serbien:
30% Slawen
9% Phönizier
21% Illyrer
14% Kelten
8% Hellenen
2% wikinger
18% Germanen

iGENEA ... really :cantbeli: Find something mentioning alleles, or a scientific paper in general please.

Otherwise I consider myself 50% Kryptonian at least.

[Shurik SST]

iGENEA ... really :cantbeli: Find something mentioning alleles, or a scientific paper in general please.

Otherwise I consider myself 50% Kryptonian at least.

Those guys are a bit clownish. Especially considering their labeling of certain genetic markers. Like all Vikings always has some certain genetic marker. And especially considering they do this only to samples given to them so there is really no statistical analysis done to whoever the people they analyze are.

[Aor]

Why not call it "Republic of north of the country that used to be part of the Ottoman empire for so long that they started to look like them now in serious debt and needs something else to dangle in front of the Yunani populis instead of selling their islands to rich Arabs so they can pay their farmers who are on strike every second day blocking roads and setting banks on fire because their government is corrupt Macedonia"!? It's nice and compact... wouldn't you say?

Why not call it a rest and leave your anti- Greek propaganda, stereotypes and hatered of the net.

Where do you come from by the way?

[Zarkus]

Come on Bathinus. There is genetic research that indicates a large degree of genetic homogeneity to the Greek population and similarities to the genome of ancient Greeks. That were minglings with other peoples that came in the area, but there is a genetic and more importantly linguistic, ethnical and cultural continuity.


Find something mentioning alleles, or a scientific paper in general please.
Otherwise I consider myself 50% Kryptonian at least.

Ummm.... you first. A nice NON Greek credible study.

[Papenheims]

Greek pressure of Macedonia name issue is probably one of the dumbest examples of buthurt nationalism ever known in history!!

Whats next? Germans challenging France to change the name to Western Francia, because the Franks were Germanic tribe and there already is a Frankonia (Franken) region in Germany!!

The truth is that that modern Greeks has as much as connection with ancient Macedonians as Southern Russians with ancient Skythians.

[Lokos]

As for your question who is considered Greek a good answer would be the one who is not a Slav ( comes from the slavus-slave servant in the Byzantine. No offense.

Historically and realistically this is incorrect. 'Slav' does not come from 'slavus-slave/servant', but is the name by which the various Slavic tribes referred to themselves during the earliest migration period ('Slav' either refers to 'slava', which means fame or renown, or 'slov', which means letter - the latter definition is supported by the Slavic word for most Western Europeans during the early medieval era; Niemcy, meaning 'those who cannot speak [our language]). The word 'slave' does come from Slav, however, due to the extensive trade in Slavic slaves conducted during the period of 800-1100AD. Slavic slaves were popular because 1) they were considered excellent physical specimens by the purchasing parties and 2) the Slavic lands were, by and large, not organized enough to offer major resistance to the raiding parties. This trade only died down when Slavic states began arising in numbers and growing in strength.

The Greek members refuting the assertion that their heritage is partially Slavic need to come to peace with that. Byzantine rulers frequently settled Slavic tribes on the territories of what today makes up modern Greece... Though they were too few to absorb the Greeks, as they did various other polities across the Balkans, it goes without saying that there is certainly a Slavic element in the ethnography of Greece, today. Just as there is a Greek element in the ethnography of most Slavic nation states in the Balkans. It is unfortunate that some of you find the notion offensive, as opposed to taking heart in the diversity of your heritage. I have said elsewhere that I am proud of the fact that some of my earliest ancestors could have been Greek - it makes me no less Serbian... Nor would such a feeling make you less Greek.

L.

[Zarkus]

Most Serbian people do consider Greeks as close as their true brothers and rightfully so. Personally, they have my full support in this issue with FYROManians. If anything, as old European nations, we get rightfully annoyed when nationalities created in 1990s start re-inventing parts of our history. Even though you're not one of the most intelligent trolls around, I am sure you can still recognize what I mean by this.

Ha ha ha... old Europian nations!? I would not call a nation existing from 1830 that old... i mean.. it's old-ish. Let's not confuse the ancient Greeks with the ones living in "modern" Greece today. Lemons and oranges buddy.
Oh, and another thing (and this really made me laugh).. "we get rightfully annoyed when nationalities created in 1990s start re-inventing parts of our history"... are you for real!? What did Serbia than? What was your great solution for the nuisance (neighboring countries/people that lived around Serbia-still Yugoslavia at that time)!? Was the solution what Miloshevich did? Give me a f***ing break! You of all people don't have the right to take a stance on this issue... on any issue concerning the Balkans for that matter.

[iloxos]

But again, seriosly, realisticly and honestly, what do modern Greeks have to do with Antic Maceodnians? Language? No. Blood? Lets not get crazy. Culture? No. Religion? No. It's part of Greek history, but like it or not it's part of FYROM's history too since they live on that land. So what exactly are they stealing from YOU? They can't pretend Antic Macedonians didn't exist on that land when loking at the history of their region and state. But I do agree with you they shou;dn't be claiming they ARE Antic Macedonians. That's silly.

Greeks of today have the same culture and blood with their forefathers but different relligion. The fact that some people arrived in the area after 1-2000 years of greek residence doesn’t make them greeks. That’s a great joke in modern historians when they are learning about a Chinese Jenkins Han, a Turk Homer or a Bulgarian Cyril.
Do you understand the difference between race and land designation names?




The first is that there is not one signature on any of these treaties by a Macedonian Government, Macedonian organization, Macedonian individual or anyone appointed to represent the Macedonian people.
Since the Macedonian people were not signatories to these documents, many Macedonians cannot see how there could be any expectation that the Macedonian people should agree with or be bound by these documents.
To take one example - the Treaty of Bucharest that divided Macedonia between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. It is a fact that Macedonians have never accepted this Treaty and never will. Macedonians find it extraordinarily unjust that the fate of their land and their fate as a people was decided without their input or consent. The Treaty does not have the consent of the native population, and particularly the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia, nor of the other ethnic groups who lived in these lands at the time. Without this consent, there will always be the shadow of moral illegitimacy over the Treaty and over the initial occupation and continued possession of these lands by Greece and Bulgaria. the Treaty of Bucharest will end soon!!Maybe thats why greece is so nervous,maybe..

Since none knows before 1949 of a Macedonian ethnicity but rather a strong Bulgarian core in western and south Macedonia the ottomans or the westerners found absolutely no reason to invent a new nation. Modern FYROMians are mistreated but that surely not Greece’s fault but rather Titos "Aegean Nation" polity.
As I ve said numerous times we feel pity for you and we wish you the best since we really see you as our neighbours and allies. That’s why we are helping you for all these 19 years with military and economical assistance.
As for the treaty of Bucarest none here really cares. We are not the ones with fake identities.


Well first, you have to define what is a Greek. What a Greek is today, is reeeeeeeeeeeally different than what a Greek was 2,500 years ago.


People evolve. Some more and change completely and some less and stay almost the same. We are in the less side due to 4000 of military vistories and a special "attention" during our slave years. In fact we are the only western nation to claim that we speak/think and even look the same as our forfathers outside Troy walls.


Your modern Greek culture has no similarity with Greek Macedonian cuture from ancient times. Greek has almost always meant someone belonging to Greek culture and language, never some collective blood so you can't claim that either. Even today Greece works hard on assimilation to hellenize any minorities. Not to mention what an impact the Slavic invasions had on Greece, ESPECIALY the area around Thessaloniki.
My point is, lets not go overboard with the whole ancient stuff when speaking on modern problems because it's kind of corny.

First of all what do you mean when you say that modern greeks have different culture from the Antic Macedonians? Last time I ve checked we speak the same language when we study Aristotle or Homer. We build a relligion (orthodox greek) mixing judean christianity and paganism in a way that after the first council of Nicaea none really could find a difference between the two. Reading comedies written 2500 years ago i really can't find a difference in any ascects of life (except misstreating women and having slaves)

And yes we claim the blood. Even if we have evolved through mixed marriages we are the sole descendants of these people.

The minorities you are referring are the Turkish (30,000), the Pomak (30,000), Roma (60,000) and some lesser numbers of religious minorities (Jews, Muslims, Catholics). They are all considered Greek citizens, they have fought in all our wars and they are respected in all civil (MPs for example) and religious positions they have. Come to Greece PLEASE and prove to me that we try to assimilate them. I had soldiers under my command called Ali or Abraam treated the same as all the rest.

The slavs around Thessaloniki all Bulgarian and some Serbs were deported after Second Balkan War and First World War as a result of 3 reasons:


the capture by Bulgarians of East Romylia a core greek area.
the capture of Serbs of Monastiri area and north Macedonia
the 2 million greek refugees form minor asia and east thrace after the loss of 1922 war that needed space to live.

Of these people less that 3,000 Slavs live today in 15 villages around Florina city from a pre-1920 population of 150,000.



What do Greek members think is a fair solution? What name if not North Macedonia? Like I said to me personaly North Macedonia makes sense bcause that region LITTERALY IS Northern Macedonia.

As lond there is no connection of FYROMians with our history they can have any name the want. In Bulgaria there is a huge area called Macedonia for example.
North Macedonia or Vardar Macedonia sound good to me.



Plenty of Greeks claim FYROM :D
And northern Epirus in Albania.
And islands in Turkey.
there's wacky nationalists on both sides

We do not claim any other areas. South Albania and Imbros/Tenedos islands should have –as it was agreed after WW1 – a level of self rule since they had sole greek populations.
Nothing Else. They are not parts of Greece.


I never claimed Greeks are descendants of Slavs, I said Slavs had an impact on some areas. It's just historical facts, denying them is silly.

They had an impact surely. The same way greeks had and impact on them. Greeks and all people around them share a bit of common blood.
The grand father of FYROM PM Gruevski was born in Greece and fought/died in WW2 in the albanian front horouring his country. At that time Nicholas Grouios as was his name thought fought and died as a greek.
Don't you have similar cases in your country?



Oh it's been geneticly proven modern greeks are the same as ancient greeks? This is ridiculous and no serious historian would support it.


They are studies and DNA test proving we are descendants and an evolution of Antic Hellenes and Medieval East Romans. Serious historians claim that.
Nothing else


During their war for independance Greeks didn't even know WHO Alexander the Great was, they neded western hellenophiles to tell them. Hellenophiles who came to fight "alongside Leonidas and his 300", only to find the Greeks were "more Turk" then the Turks themsevles.

The majority of people living here were slaves, had no right to education or simply any right at all.

Their life had less value from a farm animal so if you expected them to read philosophy or history I must tell you they had a war with 35% loss of life to be able to learn to read.

Greeks living in Dodecanese and Europe knew exactly who we were. Even if we had forgotten Europeans knew the truth. Greek scholars arriving after 1928 in the new state after 500 years of slavery taught people the things they had to learn the same way modern Israel taught the remnants of the Holocaust their identity.


A nice reed in The Economist.

Hahahahahahahahaha

[thend]

I have proposal instead of changing the whole country name to Northern Macedonia,why greece not changing its region name to southern Macedonia

[Aor]

Ummm.... you first. A nice NON Greek credible study.

That is not a study, but pure swill. Molecular biology was part of my studies. To compare genetic prints you need a number of various alleles or genetic markers.
Greek pressure of Macedonia name issue is probably one of the dumbest examples of buthurt nationalism ever known in history!!

Whats next? Germans challenging France to change the name to Western Francia, because the Franks were Germanic tribe and there already is a Frankonia (Franken) region in Germany!!

The truth is that that modern Greeks has as much as connection with ancient Macedonians as Southern Russians with ancient Skythians.

And how exacly do you justify your position.

Come and visit the archeological sites in Macedonia and be my guest and ask a Greek to read the inscriptions on the ruins. They are writen in ancient Greek. Now ask yourself how can a modern Greek read a "dead language" and why modern Greek the same words and almost the same grammar.
The Greek members refuting the assertion that their heritage is partially Slavic need to come to peace with that. Byzantine rulers frequently settled Slavic tribes on the territories of what today makes up modern Greece... Though they were too few to absorb the Greeks, as they did various other polities across the Balkans, it goes without saying that there is certainly a Slavic element in the ethnography of Greece, today. Just as there is a Greek element in the ethnography of most Slavic nation states in the Balkans. It is unfortunate that some of you find the notion offensive, as opposed to taking heart in the diversity of your heritage. I have said elsewhere that I am proud of the fact that some of my earliest ancestors could have been Greek - it makes me no less Serbian... Nor would such a feeling make you less Greek.

L.

No problem with that Lokos. Of course there had to be some intermingling between populations. The problem is some Trolls think the Greek nation doesn't exist any more and that there is no continuity or connection between ancient Greece and modern Greece. You'll find plenty of those in this forum too.
Ha ha ha... old Europian nations!? I would not call a nation existing from 1830 that old... i mean.. it's old-ish. Let's not confuse the ancient Greeks with the ones living in "modern" Greece today. Lemons and oranges buddy.
Oh, and another thing (and this really made me laugh).. "we get rightfully annoyed when nationalities created in 1990s start re-inventing parts of our history"... are you for real!? What did Serbia than? What was your great solution for the nuisance (neighboring countries/people that lived around Serbia-still Yugoslavia at that time)!? Was the solution what Miloshevich did? Give me a f***ing break! You of all people don't have the right to take a stance on this issue... on any issue concerning the Balkans for that matter.

There is a continuity and a history in this nation called Hellas.

don't derail the thread.

and please do answer me where you come from because no one but Turks and Arabs call Greeks as Yunanni. You can look up what that name means too. :lol:

[IconOfEvi]

Ethnic homogenity is largely a farce anyways. And depending on how often your land was invaded, you could be the most random hodgepodge out there

[iloxos]

Ha ha ha... old Europian nations!? I would not call a nation existing from 1830 that old... i mean.. it's old-ish. Let's not confuse the ancient Greeks with the ones living in "modern" Greece today. Lemons and oranges buddy.

I have a family tree from mid 1400s having two major sub-trees from Epirus and north-west minor asia. We have around 20 foreigners in almost 2000 members. In a small church in modern Ayvalic Turkey they is my family name written in the wall after the year 1673 in medieval greek and turk(arabic) alphabet.

Greeks arriving after 1928 from europe like Alexander Ypsilantis found no slavs of chinese or angentinians or anyone else they would have written about it.

Ps there is another "theory" that greeks arived with pyramid ships from Alpha Centauri stars. I find it more amuzing.

[Zarkus]

Why not call it a rest and leave your anti- Greek propaganda, stereotypes and hatered of the net.
Where do you come from by the way?


Republic of north of the country that used to be part of the Ottoman empire for so long that they started to look like them now in serious debt and needs something else to dangle in front of the Yunani populis instead of selling their islands to rich Arabs so they can pay their farmers who are on strike every second day blocking roads and setting banks on fire because their government is corrupt Macedonia

"and leave your anti- Greek propaganda, stereotypes and hatered of the net." Now.... after all that has been written by the greek members on this topic about Macedonia and Macedonians you are accusing me for spreading propaganda, stereotypes and hatred!? Did you even reed the oder posts? And tell me... where did you see the propaganda, the stereotypes and the hatred? Doesn't Greece have an enormous debt, isn't there a strike every second day of the week, isn't greece using this hot story every time it's government is in financial trouble, derailing the public from the real issues existing in greece? I mean for god sake... your country is the ONLY EU member, or European country for that matter... that has NO minorities. NONE! You've been "scrubbed" by every single human rights organisation, the Council of Europe and the European Ombudsman ect, ect... and you are telling me that i'm spreading propaganda? Frankly, i find that insulting.

[Papenheims]

Come and visit the archeological sites in Macedonia and be my guest and ask a Greek to read the inscriptions on the ruins. They are writen in ancient Greek. Now ask yourself how can a modern Greek read a "dead language" and why modern Greek the same words and almost the same grammar.


Language doesn't matter, once whole modern France and southern Germany spoke Celtic, Latin derived languages once were spoken only in central Italy, England shifted from Britonic to anglo-saxon, and then to heavily norman-french influenced language what we now call English.

just look how many language shifts has Anatolia experienced - Hittite, Lydian, Galatian (Celtic), Greek and now Turkish (genetics prove that vast majority of modern Turks share links with ancient Anatolian populations).

[Zarkus]

there is another "theory" that greeks arived with pyramid ships from Alpha Centauri stars

So... you're telling me that in fact... you are Goa'uld!? :-))

[iloxos]

So... you're telling me that in fact... you are Goa'uld!? :-))

In fact - leaving the BS outside - i am Greek.

[Zarkus]

Since none knows before 1949 of a Macedonian ethnicity but rather a strong Bulgarian core in western and south Macedonia the ottomans or the westerners found absolutely no reason to invent a new nation. Modern FYROMians are mistreated but that surely not Greece’s fault but rather Titos "Aegean Nation" polity.
As I ve said numerous times we feel pity for you and we wish you the best since we really see you as our neighbours and allies. That’s why we are helping you for all these 19 years with military and economical assistance.
As for the treaty of Bucarest none here really cares. We are not the ones with fake identities.

Telling a LIE a thousand times wont make it truth... deal with it. I'm sure those are the things that you've been brainwashed in school, but unfortunatly i can't do much about that... What's done i done.
And about feeling pity and feeling pitiful.... sigh.... look who's talking, the joke in the worlds media for the past few months. And stop lying to the forum members about some military and economical assistance...

[Zarkus]

In fact - leaving the BS outside - i am Greek.

Good for you.

[Aor]

Now.... after all that has been written by the greek members on this topic about Macedonia and Macedonians you are accusing me for spreading propaganda, stereotypes and hatred!?

Well ...yes. Your position holds no water scientifically or otherwise.


Did you even reed the oder posts? And tell me... where did you see the propaganda, the stereotypes and the hatred? Doesn't Greece have an enormous debt,

Yes, but so do others and you don't see the constant bashing or like you do constant attempts by people do redicule the country based on that fact alone.
isn't there a strike every second day of the week,

No


isn't greece using this hot story every time it's government is in financial trouble, derailing the public from the real issues existing in greece?

No, and by the way the thread is about reaching for a compromise. Nice to let people know what misconceptions you hold.


I mean for god sake... your country is the ONLY EU member, or European country for that matter... that has NO minorities. NONE!

My turn to laugh. The only recognised minority Greece has is the religious Muslim minority in Thrace. Look it up.


You've been "scrubbed" by every single human rights organisation, the Council of Europe and the European Ombudsman ect, ect... and you are telling me that i'm spreading propaganda? Frankly, i find that insulting.

If you push uncredible, unscientific stuff and your own personal bias and misconceptions then that is called propaganda. Open a book if you are so interested in the subject.

And please be kind enough and write where you come from.

[themacedonian]

The proper name should be Republic of Macedonia.

It seems that Republic of Northern Macedonia will be a solution. The only sticking point is whether this name would be for bilateral use or overall use and countries that have recognised the country under Republic of Macedonia will have to change their recognition.

During the Roman empire there were two provinces Macedonia Prima (current Greek Macedonia) and Macedonia Salutaris (Current republic). Obviously borders shifted over the years.

There was a need and a solution then and there can be a solution now.

[Zarkus]

They are studies and DNA test proving we are descendants and an evolution of Antic Hellenes and Medieval East Romans. Serious historians claim that.

Still waiting on those.

[Zarkus]

Well ...yes. Your position holds no water scientifically or otherwise.

Says who?


No, and by the way the thread is about reaching for a compromise. Nice to let people know what misconceptions you hold.

You and i know that a compromise can't be found. You can't reach one with blackmailing.


My turn to laugh. The only recognised minority Greece has is the religious Muslim minority in Thrace. Look it up.

What nationality is this Muslim minority that you speak of? What language are they using... Turk, Arab... what?


And please be kind enough and write where you come from.

You're a smart one... figure it out. :-)

P.S. Have to go out... but i hope we will continue this nice debate later. Cheers!

[Aor]

Language doesn't matter, once whole modern France and southern Germany spoke Celtic, Latin derived languages once were spoken only in central Italy, England shifted from Britonic to anglo-saxon, and then to heavily norman-french influenced language what we now call English.

just look how many language shifts has Anatolia experienced - Hittite, Lydian, Galatian (Celtic), Greek and now Turkish (genetics prove that vast majority of modern Turks share links with ancient Anatolian populations).

Oh but it does and the examples you post only make my arguement. In contrast to the languages and regions you post in Macedonia the language spoken since antiquity has been Greek. In no point in history was another language dominant in the area and in no point in history was Greek absent from the area. Linguistics are connected to ethnicity in the Balkans at least. Especially for Greeks that is the case since there was a very rich literary work in Greek that besides religion and fealty to state or lord defined the national sentiment. Take that into accound along with the fact that most nations in the Balkans one finds today came in the early middle ages with no written traditions and you'll see why language only underlines that Macedonia was and is a historical ethnic Greek term.

[Ulytau]

just look how many language shifts has Anatolia experienced - Hittite, Lydian, Galatian (Celtic), Greek and now Turkish (genetics prove that vast majority of modern Turks share links with ancient Anatolian populations).

Turkish historian Yusuf Halacoglu written about background of current Anatolia and our ''Turks'' background with offical archives tribes & tax papers & names etc. oh at our genetic tree if we have some parts from this ancient populations ''Even Turkish historians making serious research and seems our ancestors were come here before 1071'' at our DNA tree totally normal too,i believe we dont have pure race in this world.

Btw if you guys check,Slav name nothing about Slave name ''We speaking about a nation who have their ancient Gods etc''

[iloxos]

Telling a LIE a thousand times wont make it truth... deal with it. I'm sure those are the things that you've been brainwashed in school, but unfortunatly i can't do much about that... What's done i done.
And about feeling pity and feeling pitiful.... sigh.... look who's talking, the joke in the worlds media for the past few months. And stop lying to the forum members about some military and economical assistance...

What lie?? Is there an historical document that proves a macedonian nation outside greeks? is there a nation that fought against ottomans or anyone else? is there a macedonian language/architecture/alphabet/literature other that ethnic greek???


Why all FYROM neighbours Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks claim with material that FYROM is made from albanians and slavs of bulgarian and serb descent? Are we all liers????

I prefer to be the worlds joke for our political choises and their mistreating of our economics than been the worlds joke for inventing a nationality without historical proof. Next choise was Quebec or Texas???

Since 1991 we have given to FYROM 50-100mE per year, plus military assistance in the civil war or 2001 in the form of personal weapons, APCs a lot of money for ammo.
Do you want pictures?


The proper name should be Republic of Macedonia.

It seems that Republic of Northern Macedonia will be a solution. The only sticking point is whether this name would be for bilateral use or overall use and countries that have recognised the country under Republic of Macedonia will have to change their recognition.
During the Roman empire there were two provinces Macedonia Prima (current Greek Macedonia) and Macedonia Salutaris (Current republic). Obviously borders shifted over the years.
There was a need and a solution then and there can be a solution now.

Since there is a dispute of a single macedonia name you could have a synthetic in front. North or Slav sounds good. Slav-macedonia is bad?


Still waiting on those.

Aaaaaaa another troll fyromian.....

[Ordie]

How about Top Macedonia and Bottom Macedonia?

[Zoran MKD]

How about Top Macedonia and Bottom Macedonia?


FORMER OTTOMAN PROVINCE OF Hellas

[Ordie]

New Macedonia?

[iloxos]

how about south finland or new france?

[Ordie]

Red Macedonia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg
Blue Macedonia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Greek_Macedonian_Flag.svg

[iloxos]

hahahahaha :)

[G3SG1]

And since someone mentioned genetics...


Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen



In this point the Samurai sits down and performs the Sepuku:lol:

[Dercius]

In an attempt to promote tourism, they should try Beernation, Sexland, Poligamysburg, Sodomystan or something like that

[G3SG1]

In fact - leaving the BS outside - i am Greek.


I once asked a very old man in my father's village in Thessaly what tribes are living in this area. He told me that they are Pelasgians. And this guy was just an uneducated shepherd living in the mountains all his life.

[themacedonian]

It has been shown that Greece has issued a test balun just to show some sort of good will to negotiate. It seems it is another trick and an attempt to put pressure on the R. Macedonian Prime Minister.

Negotiations should be stopped. There have been enough countries that have recognised the country.

[iloxos]

We are always showing good will. I thought 19 years of peace and assistance really showed out intentions....Are you blind????

In the other hand if you insist negotiations should stop we have 1200 tanks parked around doing nothing ;)

[Zoran MKD]

We are always showing good will. I thought 19 years of peace and assistance really showed out intentions....Are you blind????

In the other hand if you insist negotiations should stop we have 1200 tanks parked around doing nothing ;)

Remember my dear neighbour Russia have 50.000 tanks and didn't solve problem.
Tanks makes troubles don't solve .

[iloxos]

Really? Remember baltic states? Remember when they became free again? How long does it takes to invade, plave an albanian leadership and depart? A week max??? Greater Albania sounds good to me too.

[ABN MP]

In the other hand if you insist negotiations should stop we have 1200 tanks parked around doing nothing ;)

That is because the country can't afford the gas to move them. Just Kidding. I really hope this matter actually gets solved sometime in the future.
A question for the Greeks. If the name is approved to Republic of Northern Macedonia how will Greeks react. I know that we always tell people we either live in FYROM or Skopje when we visit Thessaloniki (Gotta love Ikea). By the way I have no stake in this as I am American and just live here temporarily.

[Ghost Nappa]

The ancient Greek gave name Iberia to both Iberians in modern day Georgia and Spain. You don't see Spain and Georgia making a big fuss about it,


Have they solve the Lesbos name dispute yet ? Lesbian =/= Lesbian ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7376919.stm

[iloxos]

my friend they can have any name they want as long they don't claim they 're greeks. north macedonia is an area and not a nation and greeks feel ok with that the same way they feel about vardar macedonia province of the bulgarian state.

we all hope the matter will end soon. we are bored to death...

[Zarkus]

In this point the Samurai sits down and performs the Sepuku:lol:

Finaly! Now let's all have some sake.

[justasoldier]

We are always showing good will. I thought 19 years of peace and assistance really showed out intentions....Are you blind????
Why don't you be polite and explain what is the purpose of this whole ,,name,, dispute.The name of the country is not a problem at all.There are other issues that the Greek state is interested in.And that is the identity issues.For example why the Greek government insists that the graph in UN documents which explains nation living in the country to be left empty or to be called Northern Macedonians or Makedonians(in both cases a solution dictated by Greece ).Name another example of a similar demand brought by a country/nation worldwide.
Second problem that VID brought it up.Since he and you claim that this nation was invented by the evil red comunists,why Greece as a state or the people who were friends to the Greeks within the exYu-state and clearly had the power to act, people such as VID clearly pointed out he is,didn't raise this question immediately or during the period when Yougoslavia existed as a state and where the Macedonian people was clearly recognized as a nation?Maybe because during that time Iloxos would think twice before he would made a statement like this bellow:


In the other hand if you insist negotiations should stop we have 1200 tanks parked around doing nothing ;)

Now imagine that.The Greek state and economy was barely saved from a total bankruptcy,and now suddenly the same bankrupt economy will come up with miracle money to finance a whole war,and at the same time will continue to help the NATO effort worldwide?

There will be no solution.Not as long is a biased one.If this was a simple historical issue or a claim that someone is trying to steal someone others history then Greece as a state wouldn't raise the question at all.If they have the scientific means to dispute and reject the claims then the whole world would accepted it and i as a Macedonian would asked not to be called as such.Until then like i said there will be no solution that my people would accept.Not a one that goes counter my believes of what i am.As for the EU and NATO perspectives,well we did all that was asked from us.If that is not enough then thank you.We will always be friends to those who want us to be friendly with, and recognized my nation and for which i am grateful,as for the others well life goes on.What would a small artificial nation mean as another enemy on the mighty ,,1200 tanks parked around doing nothing,, state member of EU and NATO?
Oh i forgot i asked Aor once and now you,you often seem to raise the question of,, we gave millions of dollars to the FYROMians invested in the economy etc etc,,.It turned out that that money didn't exactly came form Greece doesn't it?It would be much wiser if you instead invested in your country and leave the evil FYROMians to drown in their own evil no economy poor part of nameless country?

[Zarkus]

That is because the country can't afford the gas to move them.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.... that's so true man. iloxos, i hear the rubber hose is a part of any tank crew in helass... just in case they need to "borrow" some diesel fuel from the vans and trucks which are also parked around doing nothing. :)
But seriously, what exactly did you mean by mentioning 1200 tanks!? M?


I know that we always tell people we either live in FYROM or Skopje when we visit Thessaloniki.

Why? You don't need to lie that you live in Macedonia... even if it's temporary. Are you afraid that they might stone you to death? They are friendly people ABN MP.

[Zarkus]

my friend they can have any name they want as long they don't claim they 're greeks. north macedonia is an area and not a nation and greeks feel ok with that the same way they feel about vardar macedonia province of the bulgarian state.

we all hope the matter will end soon. we are bored to death...

Nobody here is trying to... god forbid (it's sort of a pejorative insult to be called a Greek in Macedonia, sorry... true).
I would like to share your optimism about the dispute ending soon.. but, ummm... not likely. The ball is not in our courtyard. And as politicians in both countries have said many times... it takes two to tango.

[Aor]

A question for the Greeks. If the name is approved to Republic of Northern Macedonia how will Greeks react. I know that we always tell people we either live in FYROM or Skopje when we visit Thessaloniki (Gotta love Ikea). By the way I have no stake in this as I am American and just live here temporarily.

Utter disgust at first here in Macedonia since mentioning that term in anything other than a Greek context is anathema here. Besides that people will eventually have to swallow it. One has to reach a compromise and a solution someday and having the term Macedonia as a geographic term offers a way out. It we could avoid any reference to the term Macedonia it would be desirable however.


Why don't you be polite and explain what is the purpose of this whole ,,name,, dispute.The name of the country is not a problem at all.There are other issues that the Greek state is interested in.And that is the identity issues.For example why the Greek government insists that the graph in UN documents which explains nation living in the country to be left empty or to be called Northern Macedonians or Makedonians(in both cases a solution dictated by Greece ).Name another example of a similar demand brought by a country/nation worldwide.
Second problem that VID brought it up.Since he and you claim that this nation was invented by the evil red comunists,why Greece as a state or the people who were friends to the Greeks within the exYu-state and clearly had the power to act, people such as VID clearly pointed out he is,didn't raise this question immediately or during the period when Yougoslavia existed as a state and where the Macedonian people was clearly recognized as a nation?Maybe because during that time Iloxos would think twice before he would made a statement like this bellow:



Now imagine that.The Greek state and economy was barely saved from a total bankruptcy,and now suddenly the same bankrupt economy will come up with miracle money to finance a whole war,and at the same time will continue to help the NATO effort worldwide?

All the data you need are here in the past pages. As for a possible war as hilarious you might find it I doubt we would need more than a day to greet Serb border guards even with partial mobilization of regional forces.
There will be no solution.Not as long is a biased one. I can't see where in the latest news you find a biased solution.
If this was a simple historical issue or a claim that someone is trying to steal someone others history then Greece as a state wouldn't raise the question at all.If they have the scientific means to dispute and reject the claims then the whole world would accepted it and i as a Macedonian would asked not to be called as such. Oh really? We do have sufficient data that Alexanders and Phillips legacy is beyond doubt Greek. You can't accept that and more than that you raise territorial claims and raise issues on non existent minorities.That is why we have this dispute pure and simple.
Until then like i said there will be no solution that my people would accept.Not a one that goes counter my believes of what i am. In other words we should swallow your claims that contradict linguistic, historical, ethnological, cultural and even genetic truths and throw away 5000 years of history. Are you for real?
As for the EU and NATO perspectives,well we did all that was asked from us.If that is not enough then thank you.We will always be friends to those who want us to be friendly with, and recognized my nation and for which i am grateful,as for the others well life goes on.What would a small artificial nation mean as another enemy on the mighty ,,1200 tanks parked around doing nothing,, state member of EU and NATO?
Oh i forgot i asked Aor once and now you,you often seem to raise the question of,, we gave millions of dollars to the FYROMians invested in the economy etc etc,,.It turned out that that money didn't exactly came form Greece doesn't it?It would be much wiser if you instead invested in your country and leave the evil FYROMians to drown in their own evil no economy poor part of nameless country?

Don't twist what I've said. The majority of investments in your country were from Greek private ventures, not state owned.

and no we don't live off anyones mercy. Nice misconceptions, I am sure they fit nicely with the rest.

Now Iloxos offered a quick and painless solution, if you want to play hardball. Here is the long and torturous one. We use every nasty trick to make any Greek business that invests in your little country a living hell unless they withdraw their investments from FYROM in a couple of months and start supporting any and every Albanian or Bulgarian separatist agenda in your country. Enjoy slow financial death and rebellion.

[Zarkus]

What lie?? Is there an historical document that proves a macedonian nation outside greeks? is there a nation that fought against ottomans or anyone else? is there a macedonian language/architecture/alphabet/literature other that ethnic greek???

Yes, yes and... ummmm... yes. To say othervise would be plain stupid.


Why all FYROM neighbours Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks claim with material that FYROM is made from albanians and slavs of bulgarian and serb descent? Are we all liers????

Beats me... it must be something in the air. You can start by asking that question to yourself first, than to your Serb friends, and maybe to a Bulgarian if one crawls in this topic. For the Albanian point of view.. frankly i don't give a damn.


I prefer to be the worlds joke for our political choises and their mistreating of our economics than been the worlds joke for inventing a nationality without historical proof. Next choise was Quebec or Texas???

And who do we prove to our Macedonian nationality and history!? You!? C'mooon... keep being proud of your 300.000.000.000 euro debt.


Since there is a dispute of a single macedonia name you could have a synthetic in front. North or Slav sounds good. Slav-macedonia is bad?

Sure, now let's find a agreeable solutions for the "macedonians" living in Greece... southern macedonians, old macedonians, original taste macedonians? Take your pic.


Aaaaaaa another troll fyromian.....

Right back at ya! Troll par excellence.

[Aor]

Nobody here is trying to... god forbid (it's sort of a pejorative insult to be called a Greek in Macedonia, sorry... true).
I would like to share your optimism about the dispute ending soon.. but, ummm... not likely. The ball is not in our courtyard. And as politicians in both countries have said many times... it takes two to tango.

If you call yourself Macedonians you are calling yourself Greek. The term Macedonia is Greek, as much as Sparta or Crete is Greek.

[Gentius]

For the Albanian point of view.. frankly i don't give a damn.

You should, 1/3 of FYROM is Albanian inhabitat and its only growing.

[Zarkus]

Now Iloxos offered a quick and painless solution, if you want to play hardball. Here is the long and torturous one. We use every nasty trick to make any Greek business that invests in your little country a living hell unless they withdraw their investments from FYROM in a couple of months and start supporting any and every Albanian or Bulgarian separatist agenda in your country. Enjoy slow financial death and rebellion.

Well... in that case, history might repeat itself... it wouldn't be the first time we blew some stuff in Thesaloniki for example. True, the first attacks in 1903 were targeted at the ottoman empire, but since now we have some other friendly faces in that region... we might start brushing on our bombing skills. Ha, just kidding... but you started this surreal conversation about supporting terrorism.

[Zarkus]

You should, 1/3 of FYROM is Albanian inhabitat and its only growing.

But i'm not... nobody is. The albanian parties (or what they have to say) that represent the albanian minority in Macedonia are nothing more than a decoration, and it's not our fault either.

Oh, and another thing... 25% is not a 1/3.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html

[justasoldier]

All the data you need are here in the past pages. As for a possible war as hilarious you might find it I doubt we would need more than a day to greet Serb border guards even with partial mobilization of regional forces. I can't see where in the latest news you find a biased solution. Oh really? We do have sufficient data that Alexanders and Phillips legacy is beyond doubt Greek. You can't accept that and more than that you raise territorial claims and raise issues on non existent minorities.That is why we have this dispute pure and simple. In other words we should swallow your claims that contradict linguistic, historical, ethnological, cultural and even genetic truths and throw away 5000 years of history. Are you for real?
If that is the case then the whole scientific world would back this ,,name,, issue that Greece seems to have against the Macedonian nation and nobody would bother finding a compromise right?
And yes i am for real.100% made of a living tissue blood and bones.


Don't twist what I've said. The majority of investments in your country were from Greek private ventures, not state owned.
So if i understand it right,when it comes to your agenda it is ,,we(the Greek people as you implied) that helped the FYROM-ians,, but when it comes to us they are ,,Greek private ventures, not state owned,,.So like i said wouldn't it be better if you didn't brought this argument at all?


and no we don't live off anyones mercy. Nice misconceptions, I am sure they fit nicely with the rest.
Well let me put it otherwise you owe money to some people.Is that better?I mean everybody but you seems to understand what my point is.Even if Greece could not manage the crisis without EU help,the state still dares to endanger key EU interests like stabilizing this f'in s*ithole called Balkans.


Now Iloxos offered a quick and painless solution if you want to play hardball
Oh believe me i do share his view for the solution as only best suited regarding this problem.However i do not share his optimism regarding the swift and glorious 1 day victory.


. Here is the long and torturous one. We use every nasty trick to make any Greek business that invests in your little country a living hell unless they withdraw their investments from FYROM in a couple of months and start supporting any and every Albanian or Bulgarian separatist agenda in your country. Enjoy slow financial death and rebellion.
Nice.It takes just a little for you to state your true filings towards me and my nation.Well thank you for you kind wishes.On the other hand i wish you and your people all the best.

[thend]

And again,again....
In Greek geography from 1977
117576
117577
From 1920 greek register list there are macedonians
117578
Read for yourself
117579
Huh..
117580

The Times, Saturday, Jul 19, 1890, pg. 7.
117581
117582
117583

Dare to comment the pictures??
Need more independed arguments,we have them

[G3SG1]

And again,again....
In Greek geography from 1977
117576
117577
From 1920 greek register list there are macedonians
117578
Read for yourself
117579
Huh..
117580

The Times, Saturday, Jul 19, 1890, pg. 7.
117581
117582
117583

Dare to comment the pictures??
Need more independed arguments,we have them


Ι think stupidity has reached the outer space. The Greek geography book lists the former Yugoslav territory as it is callled by the Yugoslavs with their details. If these things are the core of your arguments...


As for the listings of Macedonians they mean the Macedonian Greek population. Check the US state department telegram from 1944 i posted to see for yourself .

You are brainwashed by Tito and the year is 2010 and you are still ''programmed''.

[G3SG1]

Time to end this silly discussion.

Ex Fyrom President Gligorov: We are Slavs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4&feature=related

[Mordoror]

Bwahaha
the dead horse is on foot again
Aren't you guys bored to use all the same crap arguments (1944 US dep letter, genetic arguments that are worthy my ass for either side, language on old rotten statues and stupid maps)
could we not go ahead instead of being like child in a kindergarden
no of course not when i look the results on this thread

on the other hand i have to praise the Greek gov
nothing better than to play on some crappy nationalistic feeling when you are in trouble and actually they are in trouble
so it is not innocent that this issue is coming back in light actually when it was unheard of for months

my dear greeks fellows, you can whine and turn around yelling yadayada about N.S.E.W Macedonia and totally forget that the IMF, EU and your gov will screw you in the next weeks
mark my words
and come back in let's say 2-3 months to tell me what is your level of unemployement, salary and civil unrest but how proud you where during 5 minutes for ranting on an internet forum

[Gentius]

But i'm not... nobody is. The albanian parties (or what they have to say) that represent the albanian minority in Macedonia are nothing more than a decoration, and it's not our fault either.

Oh, and another thing... 25% is not a 1/3.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html

Yeah you're right, I wouldnt worry about a growing minority either.

Oh and its from 2002, its more close to 30% today.

[thend]

Yeah you're right, I wouldnt worry about a growing minority either.

Oh and its from 2002, its more close to 30% today.

And what are you trying to prove??

[G3SG1]

and come back in let's say 2-3 months to tell me what is your level of unemployement, salary and civil unrest but how proud you where during 5 minutes for ranting on an internet forum

2-3 months it's a long time you might be a part of Kosovo or Albania.

[Gentius]

And what are you trying to prove??


His ignorant attitude against minority Albanians.

[Zarkus]

Yeah you're right, I wouldnt worry about a growing minority either.

Oh and its from 2002, its more close to 30% today.

But haven't you heard!? They've all immigrated to Belgium, and are now seeking asylum. :)
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/macedonia-serbia.3l3

[justasoldier]

Ι . The Greek geography book lists the former Yugoslav territory as it is callled by the Yugoslavs with their details.
It is perfectly normal and polite in the real world,that you do address to the people or a nation of a country the way they wish to call them self you know.

[Gentius]

But haven't you heard!? They've all immigrated to Belgium, and are now seeking asylum. :)
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/macedonia-serbia.3l3

Luckly they were all deported back.

[justasoldier]

His ignorant attitude against minority Albanians.
You could open a new thread about it you know?As for the time being thank you for your kind contribution to this thread and please leave that debate out of it.

[G3SG1]

Ex Fyrom PM Georgievski a former hard line ''Macedonian''


Ljubčo Georgievski Blasts Pseudomacedonism by Using Powerful Insight [17-VI-2009]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HvKPiLYZCI

note the discomfort of the other guy:)best part is from 2:00

[G3SG1]

Now i listed your ex president and ex PM saying a number of things that end your ''Macedonian'' myth but i am not getting any answers.

[justasoldier]

Oh that is quite fair.A politician vs historian duel.And someone would ask where is the rest of the video?Why did the author of this cutscene(i wonder who might that be) didn't bother to give the historian a chance to prove his point?Interesting wouldn't you say?On the other hand Mr.Georgievski is bulgarian citizen you know that right?Thank you.

On the other hand you do realize that you made your ,,You are brainwashed by Tito and the year is 2010 and you are still ''programmed'' ,, point worthless by putting these 2 videos right?Because it shows that here in Macedonia people are allowed to express their point of view even if it is radical like Mr Georgievski is,but on the other hand i never saw a similar thing on the other side.

[Zoran MKD]

You should, 1/3 of FYROM is Albanian inhabitat and its only growing.


Official statistic monitored from EU sey 20 % . Please respect the Fact.In mine time 100.000 Macedonians live in Albania , regia around Tirana , Golobrdo , Prespa...etc.

[G3SG1]

When the ex president of Fyrom Gligorov and Fyrom PM Georgievski say these things we could save some energy and stop discussing the same and same things.

Kiro Gligorov - "we are slavs" wootwoot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4&feature=player_embedded



Ljubčo Georgievski Blasts Pseudomacedonism

the truth in 2:00 min while the other guy nearly explodes:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HvKPiLYZCI&feature=player_embedded

[Mordoror]

Now i listed your ex president and ex PM saying a number of things that end your ''Macedonian'' myth but i am not getting any answers.

bwahaha
you quoted that ****head of Goergevski
this man has as much credibility than your former president i.e : nil
both are known liers and attention whore

as for the macedonian myth whatever bro
we are not talking about myths anymore
talking about myth is losing any credibility so spare me the "greek civilization vs slavic invaders vs whoever" and please give me a decent political and diplomatic reason why the term Northern Macedonia would be unacceptable (and please spare me also the BS about a bunch of far right extremists who like to play with maps on base ball hats....every country has its nuts)
i want a clear, precise and reasonable reason
and i am waiting

[V.I.D.]

Ha ha ha... old Europian nations!? I would not call a nation existing from 1830 that old... i mean.. it's old-ish. Let's not confuse the ancient Greeks with the ones living in "modern" Greece today. Lemons and oranges buddy.

I think you're wasting your precious time on Mp.Net when you're supposed to paint the horse on Alexander the Great's sculpture you guys are building in downtown Skoplje. What a joke you are Mr. Trollovski.

As for the rest of people calling themselves Macedonians, well, no offense, but you have made your own bed (kissing up to Albanians, shamelessly stealing Greek traditions/culture/history, coming with some preposterous ideas of your own origin) so now you have to deal with it. I feel bad for a regular guy on the street that was not asked anything about it, but continuing to re-invent stories is a mark of unclear conscience and confusion. The sooner you mend your mistakes to all of your neighbors and understand your place in history, the sooner you should be able to move on. Personally, I have no love lost for the people who put swastikas on Greek flags as a part of "art exhibition". Sometimes enough is simply enough.

[Connaught Ranger]

One thread on this subject is quite enough.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?177235-Greece-floats-solution-for-Macedonia-name-dispute

Connaught Ranger

[justasoldier]

As for the rest of people calling themselves Macedonians,
You mean those who you lived with for 50 years and had nothing against calling them selves Macedonians?


I have no love lost for the people who put swastikas on Greek flags as a part of "art exhibition".
But of course you do have understanding for the people who's soldiers chant how they'll ,,make cloth out of the skin of the FYROM ians,,.

[Mordoror]

kissing up to Albaniansforced to do that by our EU friends. But maybe that's the fact that pisses you the most my dear serbian friend


shamelessly stealing Greek traditionswut ?
sorry i don't dance sirtakip-)


culture
wut
sorry i don't make tzatziki and humus regularly for dinner (although i appreciate it from time to time)


history
stealing greek history is a mistake, i admit it
however i think that both sides are moronic on that "history" thingy because none of them are the direct descent of the Alexander's Macedonians whatever they may claim
as no Italians are the direct descent from the Romans
no french are the direct descent of Gauls
etc etc

funny how somes who understand **** about history are waving that flag


to all of your neighbors
do you mean that we shall join you, serbian father
i don't think so
the attitude of the royal serbain gendarmerie and forced serbization after 1918 didn't left good souvenirs in that region


I have no love lost for the people who put swastikas on Greek flags as a part of "art exhibition".
i don't have too
but you have also to remember that the concerned artist was from greek descent and that his family was expelled manu military from Greece during the civil war
you reap what you sow if i may dare

[Zoran MKD]

Every live creature in this planet have a write to self determined I'm Macedonian .
Greek is Greek and this story mast stop soon or later.

[V.I.D.]

forced to do that by our EU friends. But maybe that's the fact that pisses you the most my dear serbian friend

you reap what you sow if i may dare

I have no beef with you Mordoror, I think we're just speaking openly here. I won't answer everything point by point, but in general:
No one can force you to do anything you don't want to do (I think more honest answer from you would be "in the expectation of some benefits/goodies from EU aka US-puppet"). It's a mistake to enter the marriage with Albanian secessionists, you know it and I know it, and the results will be seen in the near future. But as you said "you reap what you sow".

Second, you know exactly what I mean by culture/history, etc. From building sculptures to ancient Greek heroes/key figures in Skoplje to claiming cultural development you don't have the right to. Judging from some comments, you'd start thinking it is the ancestors of modern-day FYROM Macedonians that gave Cyrillic alphabet to the world.

Third, no offense, but the comment about history makes no sense. Does that mean that English should claim no connection to Plantagenet era or French to historic Ile' de France or Serbs to Dusan's medieval Empire, because meanwhile they mixed with other newcomers. I mean there are so many Hindu and Pakistani people in UK today, so they can't possibly be called British anymore, no? Perhaps that's why the Serbs have the problem with Kosovo's Albanians claiming that medieval Serbian monasteries are "Kosovar's medieval heritage" as if Albanians built them instead of House of Nemanjic. Can you see why claiming other people's history can be irritating?

Fourth, and last encompassing point, I never said FYROM Macedonians have not been claimed by Bulgarians, Greeks or Serbs for that matter. Yes, the atrocities have been committed against them in the past by all of these, true. Yes, I think it's stupid this region was called South Serbia during the Yugoslav kingdom. However, why did Macedonians have VMRO? Why do many of them still glorify this terrorist-like pro-Bulgarian organization? Why there was no clean-cut Macedonian identity through centuries but various allegiances toward Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia? Why was "Macedonian emperor" Samuil's army defeated by Greek emperor Basil II the BULGARslayer? Why not "Macedonianslayer"? I am just using this to emphasize that modern day "Macedonians" need to accept they are new, made up of many elements, Slavic nation with no real connection to Greek history. This whole argument started with our favorite Bosniak troll Bathinus trying to throw a bone of contention between Serbs and Greeks, hence my comment of FYROM Macdonians and Bosniaks having much in common - a need to redefine newly coined identity (although, admittedly, FYROM has at least couple of decades ahead of the latter). Good luck with that endeavor, but like I said, my sympathies have melted throughout 1990s and especially within the last couple of years.
With this comment, I am through with this topic.

[a.godumov]

Why do we have to do this discussion? No matter what arguments each side presents we cannot reach a conclusion. Too much propaganda has been mixed with history here. I have my opinion on this matter but i`m not going to present or try to defend it because i find that pointless. We should just try to live as good neighbours even if we sometimes don`t like each other. This is what i think is most important... There is still hope for the Balkans unless we destroy ourselves first.

[Mordoror]

@VID

even if you are out, i will answer to you just to clarify my point of view


No one can force you to do anything you don't want to do (I think more honest answer from you would be "in the expectation of some benefits/goodies from EU aka US-puppet"). It's a mistake to enter the marriage with Albanian secessionists, you know it and I know it, and the results will be seen in the near future. But as you said "you reap what you sow".agreed
but i am not a politician and if i had the choice i would have acted differently
however Macedonia is not a strong country and what EU/USA wants to impose it does. Call it wishes of benefits vs punishment but the balance was clear at that time even if i deeply think that those who made the decision were misleaded or choosed knowlingly for their own benefits or both


Judging from some comments, you'd start thinking it is the ancestors of modern-day FYROM Macedonians that gave Cyrillic alphabet to the world. that's where you are wrong
but all can be discussed as we are talking about ancient times with not clear proof of who was who, mixed with a lot of mythology due to general believes or as a purpose for building of personal myths
look at the whole antiquity sources we have : there is still struggles among specialists to know who was Cleopatra, if the persian army at Thermopylae was trully numbered in 300 000 or 3 millions and if Alesia was in central or southern France
here some Greeks and macedonians are discussing as if they were specialists that obviously they are not
a little humility would be fine in such kind of thread
so as it is still discussed if Alexander the Great was a Greek (Hellen) or not (except in some greek minds where he was Greek and in some Macedonian minds where he was Macedonian, obvioulsy with all the bias involved....) all this he was that no he was that approach is bull**** (hell i remember that even a Albanian member here showed proofs that he was albanianp-))

second point is that i agree and disagree with you on the historical/culture claim
ruins found in Macedonian could and should be exposed
same for statue parts or whatever
the political use of it is wrong but you cannot say that they weren't there
It is the same with the romans arenas in south of France. It only shows that the romans were there and had a cultural influence on that region. It doens't imply that the inhabitants were romans or not even if obviously some were and some weren't
so calling the airport of Skopje "Alexander the Great" sounds ridiculous to me, exposing ancient remnants that shows that the kindgom of Macedonia extened over modern macedonia is not and you cannot call it a stealing of culture/history as these remnants are obviously here. I hope you see my point but if i am not clear i can re-writte it


Third, no offense, but the comment about history makes no sense. Does that mean that English should claim no connection to Plantagenet era or French to historic Ile' de France or Serbs to Dusan's medieval Empire, because meanwhile they mixed with other newcomers. I mean there are so many Hindu and Pakistani people in UK today, so they can't possibly be called British anymore, no? Perhaps that's why the Serbs have the problem with Kosovo's Albanians claiming that medieval Serbian monasteries are "Kosovar's medieval heritage" as if Albanians built them instead of House of Nemanjic. Can you see why claiming other people's history can be irritating?

the difference, the BIG difference is that you are talking about nations registered as such, nations who were states
before that and up to Rome there was nothing like a nation and nationality
people were defined by their tribes, believes and their geographical origin arbitrarily imposed often by foreign conquerors
an example : the Gaul is an artificial name used by the romans to promote a feeling in a united nation with the same lords and rules where in fact there was not any kind of centralized power and state and there was hundreds of tribes hostile to each others
Greece was not a nation until late because it was only a union of cities-states
Germany under the roman time was arbitrarily called germany but it was not a unified country
in fact the word geman means cousins because they were close to the Gallic tribes
there is nothing to do with a nation-state
and i can go again and again because before the defined nation-states the only names of some areas were linked to some tribes (Illyria/Dacia) or some geographical or economical features features mapped on paperboard by some roman scholars (Hellespont, Ethiopia)
see the difference ??
as such once this is understood, you can understand also that claiming a link between a modern state and an ancient time state is a fallacy
this can be true once the state begins to exist as such as a nation-state, not as a province or an artificial geographical area

last example : France began to exists as a nation state around 906 AD because the borders of the kingdom were defined at that time and the dynsaty of French kings began also at that time officialy (recorded and all)
before that it was called Hairy gaul (by oppposition to Narbonensis and Belgae Gaul) by the Romans and after that as the Gallo-Roman Province


Why there was no clean-cut Macedonian identity through centuries but various allegiances toward Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia?simple answer
that area was never except since 1990s free from foreign occupation
500 years under Turks boots, before that under Bulgarian boots, after that under Serbian boots
this is the curse of the area as it is a crossing point and a border between several fighting kingdoms
Moreover, the treaty of San Stefano was the knife the back for any independant though as the are was cut in three between 3 kingdoms for the benefits of both three but not the people in the area who at that time had nothing to say

Concerning the VMRO, another answer is it was the only organization that lit a little candle of hope against the oppresive ottoman forces so you can understand that

hope you will read me and answer, i prefer to have a clear and honest discussion that all the bablling this kind of thread brings regularly

[a.godumov]

before that under Bulgarian bootsTell that to the thousands of "macedonians" who gave their lives to defend Bulgaria. You are *****ing on their memory. I won`t write more in this thread because it could ugly. Like i said the most important thing in my opinion is for us to try to live as good neighbours even if we don`t like each other.

[Gentius]

It's a mistake to enter the marriage with Albanian secessionists, you know it and I know it, and the results will be seen in the near future.

You didnt, yet you lost Kosovo. No need to teach them how to handle their minority, its your country who should take lessons and not the other way around.



Perhaps that's why the Serbs have the problem with Kosovo's Albanians claiming that medieval Serbian monasteries are "Kosovar's medieval heritage" as if Albanians built them instead of House of Nemanjic. Can you see why claiming other people's history can be irritating?

Nonsense, we have never claimed them and what would 95% Albanians of muslim faith while the rest being of Catholic faith want your orthodox monastaries in the first place?

[Mordoror]

Tell that to the thousands of your ancestors who gave their lives to defend Bulgaria. You are *****ing on your ancestors` memories. I won`t write more in this thread because it could ugly. Like i said the most important thing in my opinion is for us to try to live as good neighbours even if we don`t like each other.the difference between you and me my friend (and between me and a lot of Balkan members on this forum) is that i 't care shvt about what did people on the soil where my parents were born if that event occured 100-500-1000 years ago
some defended Bulgaria and some fought against her
some died at the hand of the Bulgarian gendarmerie and other died fighting with the bulgarian uniform
some died against the Ottman army and some died fighting within the Ottomans ranks

you choose only to se the half full glass yet it is ALSO half empty

i can just tell you an interesting story from my famility to illustrate the point : i learned that i had two great great uncles, two brothers, one who emigrated in Bulgaria and one who stayed in the Ottoman province (it was around 1900) of Macedonia
the one who emigrated became a kind of very appreciated notable and achieved an quite high status in the bulgarian political apparatus
the other one was a thug attacking the convoys on both side of the border (turkish and bulgarian the same)
he was hanged by the bulgariansp-)
see what i mean

as for the end of your post, i all agree

[a.godumov]

the one who emigrated became a kind of very appreciated notable and achieved an quite high status in the bulgarian political apparatus
the other one was a thug attacking the convoys on both side of the border (turkish and bulgarian the same)
he was hanged by the bulgariansp-)Well there are thugs in Bulgaria today too and i don`t think that they care much about the nationality of their victims and sometimes the police actually does something about this (though we don`t have capital punishment nowadays). However when somebody is actually ready to die because of higher cause he believes in this sometimes can speak very much about his national identity.

BTW i editted my post because i wasn`t sure about your national identity. And yes i too believe that we should let history be history and live our lives in the present and this is reflected in my ideas which i mentioned.

[Shurik SST]

@VID

even if you are out, i will answer to you just to clarify my point of view

agreed
but i am not a politician and if i had the choice i would have acted differently
however Macedonia is not a strong country and what EU/USA wants to impose it does. Call it wishes of benefits vs punishment but the balance was clear at that time even if i deeply think that those who made the decision were misleaded or choosed knowlingly for their own benefits or both

that's where you are wrong
but all can be discussed as we are talking about ancient times with not clear proof of who was who, mixed with a lot of mythology due to general believes or as a purpose for building of personal myths
look at the whole antiquity sources we have : there is still struggles among specialists to know who was Cleopatra, if the persian army at Thermopylae was trully numbered in 300 000 or 3 millions and if Alesia was in central or southern France
here some Greeks and macedonians are discussing as if they were specialists that obviously they are not
a little humility would be fine in such kind of thread
so as it is still discussed if Alexander the Great was a Greek (Hellen) or not (except in some greek minds where he was Greek and in some Macedonian minds where he was Macedonian, obvioulsy with all the bias involved....) all this he was that no he was that approach is bull**** (hell i remember that even a Albanian member here showed proofs that he was albanianp-))

second point is that i agree and disagree with you on the historical/culture claim
ruins found in Macedonian could and should be exposed
same for statue parts or whatever
the political use of it is wrong but you cannot say that they weren't there
It is the same with the romans arenas in south of France. It only shows that the romans were there and had a cultural influence on that region. It doens't imply that the inhabitants were romans or not even if obviously some were and some weren't
so calling the airport of Skopje "Alexander the Great" sounds ridiculous to me, exposing ancient remnants that shows that the kindgom of Macedonia extened over modern macedonia is not and you cannot call it a stealing of culture/history as these remnants are obviously here. I hope you see my point but if i am not clear i can re-writte it

the difference, the BIG difference is that you are talking about nations registered as such, nations who were states
before that and up to Rome there was nothing like a nation and nationality
people were defined by their tribes, believes and their geographical origin arbitrarily imposed often by foreign conquerors
an example : the Gaul is an artificial name used by the romans to promote a feeling in a united nation with the same lords and rules where in fact there was not any kind of centralized power and state and there was hundreds of tribes hostile to each others
Greece was not a nation until late because it was only a union of cities-states
Germany under the roman time was arbitrarily called germany but it was not a unified country
in fact the word geman means cousins because they were close to the Gallic tribes
there is nothing to do with a nation-state
and i can go again and again because before the defined nation-states the only names of some areas were linked to some tribes (Illyria/Dacia) or some geographical or economical features features mapped on paperboard by some roman scholars (Hellespont, Ethiopia)
see the difference ??
as such once this is understood, you can understand also that claiming a link between a modern state and an ancient time state is a fallacy
this can be true once the state begins to exist as such as a nation-state, not as a province or an artificial geographical area

last example : France began to exists as a nation state around 906 AD because the borders of the kingdom were defined at that time and the dynsaty of French kings began also at that time officialy (recorded and all)
before that it was called Hairy gaul (by oppposition to Narbonensis and Belgae Gaul) by the Romans and after that as the Gallo-Roman Province

simple answer
that area was never except since 1990s free from foreign occupation
500 years under Turks boots, before that under Bulgarian boots, after that under Serbian boots
this is the curse of the area as it is a crossing point and a border between several fighting kingdoms
Moreover, the treaty of San Stefano was the knife the back for any independant though as the are was cut in three between 3 kingdoms for the benefits of both three but not the people in the area who at that time had nothing to say

Concerning the VMRO, another answer is it was the only organization that lit a little candle of hope against the oppresive ottoman forces so you can understand that

hope you will read me and answer, i prefer to have a clear and honest discussion that all the bablling this kind of thread brings regularly

I apologize, Mordoror, but you are simply wrong. Yes, nations are an "invention" and especially nation-states of the 19th century but to claim there was no Greeks just because of that. I am sorry, you can't just claim it was all a mess. There are clear languages and cultures that are clearly Greek or Bulgarian and Serbian even though there were no nation in today's sense. And the geographical region does not show us a Macedonian nation or language there, just a geographical region. There might be controversy on Cleopatra because there might be a lack of an actual tombs or descendants but there is no such lack of physical evidence when it comes to Greek culture.

I fully support the right of Macedonians of today to claim their national identity but I can not agree that it has its roots in a medieval or even worse Ancient Greek history.

I think the reason (at least looking in this thread) for this dispute is the great insistence on claiming historical rights by reaching far into the past and looking for an identity that really was not present in those times. We can, in reality, clearly see a genesis of a Macedonian national identity in the late 18th to 19th century at the earliest. Not to say it is any less relevant to today's national feelings of Macedonians.

To say just because there was no Greek nation-state in medieval times to deny quite literal physical manifestations of Greek culture is wrong.

[Ordie]

I'm glad I live in America.

There's too much historical and identity baggage in Europe bogging it down.

The Macedonians and Greeks deserve each other.

Good riddence.

[Derbedeu]

Wow, this thread turned into a flamefest. :/

And here I thought we might have had a breakthrough on this issue....silly me.

[Aor]

If that is the case then the whole scientific world would back this ,,name,, issue that Greece seems to have against the Macedonian nation and nobody would bother finding a compromise right?
And yes i am for real.100% made of a living tissue blood and bones.


Credible scientists, and no I don't mean your pseudo- scientists, do. What misconceptions you hold are of no concern whatsoever.
So if i understand it right,when it comes to your agenda it is ,,we(the Greek people as you implied) that helped the FYROM-ians,, but when it comes to us they are ,,Greek private ventures, not state owned,,.So like i said wouldn't it be better if you didn't brought this argument at all?

It is rather "our businessmen and state chose to do business with you when none other would". Again, guess what would happen if we ( private and state owned business) left.

Well let me put it otherwise you owe money to some people.Is that better?I mean everybody but you seems to understand what my point is.Even if Greece could not manage the crisis without EU help,the state still dares to endanger key EU interests like stabilizing this f'in s*ithole called Balkans.

Go ahead and Google who has pushed and keeps pushing the E.U membership for the entire region the past 20 years Sherlock. You choose to piss on our foot so don't complain when we react. We don't hand out charity. Not one tear will be shed here if your country disintegrates. We helped you out last time and we still get zero for that help. I would be really pleased if we did zero for you next time.

Oh believe me i do share his view for the solution as only best suited regarding this problem.However i do not share his optimism regarding the swift and glorious 1 day victory.


Nice.It takes just a little for you to state your true filings towards me and my nation.Well thank you for you kind wishes.On the other hand i wish you and your people all the best.

No problem. You don't want a settlement, you want to keep up with the usual chest thumping, baseless claims and propaganda. Fine, then pay the consequences. You bite the hand that feeds and sustains you. In that case lets see how you do without us.

[Aor]

I'm glad I live in America.

There's too much historical and identity baggage in Europe bogging it down.

The Macedonians and Greeks deserve each other.

Good riddence.

Have the weight of a few thousand years on your back and then we'll talk.

The relative peace the west has accomplished through centuries of war and two world wars doesn't exist in the Balkans. Have in mind that in the Balkans states gained their independence at best just two centuries ago. So all states constructs are relatively yound and don't enjoy the maturity or continuation of government western nations enjoy. Recent conflicts and grievances show the region hasn't stabilized and will not stabilize at least until all come under an E.U umbrella.

Just saying.

At best I would compare the region to western Europe after the 100 year war. Happy days...

[Mordoror]

I apologize, Mordoror, but you are simply wrong. Yes, nations are an "invention" and especially nation-states of the 19th century but to claim there was no Greeks just because of that. I am sorry, you can't just claim it was all a mess. There are clear languages and cultures that are clearly Greek or Bulgarian and Serbian even though there were no nation in today's sense. And the geographical region does not show us a Macedonian nation or language there, just a geographical region. There might be controversy on Cleopatra because there might be a lack of an actual tombs or descendants but there is no such lack of physical evidence when it comes to Greek culture.

I fully support the right of Macedonians of today to claim their national identity but I can not agree that it has its roots in a medieval or even worse Ancient Greek history.

I think the reason (at least looking in this thread) for this dispute is the great insistence on claiming historical rights by reaching far into the past and looking for an identity that really was not present in those times. We can, in reality, clearly see a genesis of a Macedonian national identity in the late 18th to 19th century at the earliest. Not to say it is any less relevant to today's national feelings of Macedonians.

To say just because there was no Greek nation-state in medieval times to deny quite literal physical manifestations of Greek culture is wrong.

first thanks for your cool headed and well thought and explained post
it changes from some crap that was thrown here and there in this thread

now sorry if you misunderstood me
i never said that there was no Greeks before the invention of nation states
i just dare to say that there was not a Greece state before 1830
futhermore history is a continuity with foggy borders

What is a greek culture
is it Minoan, is it Achean, is it Dorian ?
i dare to say that it is a mix of all that but at the same time it is not a single of any of them because culture changes through time with invasions, occupation foreign influence, internal influence and so on
Ancient Greek culture was the descent of a mix of all what i listed above
preMedieval Greek culture as well as a huge part of eastern europe was a mix of Orientalised roman culture + local and regional influences
Modern day Greek culture is the faaar descent of all that, yet it is not exactly the same because it was also born (in blood and pain) during Turkish occupation

all that to say that the culture argument is somewhat complicated and that turning a nowaday political issue about culture and history is IMHO ridiculous moreover based on events without precise and unquestionable sources

[ABN MP]

"Why? You don't need to lie that you live in Macedonia... even if it's temporary. Are you afraid that they might stone you to death? They are friendly people ABN MP."

Just part of the Security briefing. That is what we are told to tell people. About a year ago some cars were vandalized because they had MK plates when they were visiting Greece. I have had no problems in Greece. I love it there. We try to go down at least every two months or so.

[Aor]

I fully support the right of Macedonians of today to claim their national identity but I can not agree that it has its roots in a medieval or even worse Ancient Greek history.


+1 . That is the main beef with us. Leave that be and after that everything will turn up roses.

[Mordoror]

Credible scientists do

don't play the scientist card you will lose or please provide some credible sources (that you can't provide, you should know if you were studying population genetics that you have just engaged yourself on a slippery pathway)
just saying but i can't let play on science credibility whatever is the side involved

[Aor]

don't play the scientist card you will lose or please provide some credible sources (that you can't provide, you should know if you were studying population genetics that you have just engaged yourself on a slippery pathway)
just saying but i can't let play on science credibility whatever is the side involved

Aren't you tired of having the same discussion repeated over and over again. Lets say from my field of science, where I can speak with certainty, any and every source coming from FYROM and its justification could be rejected by a fourth semester biochemistry student.

I agree with you on most of what you say. Now tell me do the rest of your countrymen agree with you because for the last few pages and for a number of threads I don't remember any moderate view?

Now the thread is about reaching a settlement with a geographical term and Greeks say a grudging "Yes". Do you see any acceptance on that from your countrymen in this forum?

[Aor]

"Why? You don't need to lie that you live in Macedonia... even if it's temporary. Are you afraid that they might stone you to death? They are friendly people ABN MP."

Just part of the Security briefing. That is what we are told to tell people. About a year ago some cars were vandalized because they had MK plates when they were visiting Greece. I have had no problems in Greece. I love it there. We try to go down at least every two months or so.

If those cars come with a Vergina Sun on them or a map claiming Greek territories it is something to be expected. In my region thousands of tourists come from FYROM with their cars and nothing happens to them. The only vandalizing I have personally seen was 15 years ago when some boys stuffed the exhaust pipe of a car with cucumbers.

[Mordoror]

Aren't you tired of having the same discussion repeated over and over again. Lets say from my field of science, where I can speak with certainty, any and every source coming from FYROM and its justification could be rejected by a fourth semester biochemistry student.

I agree with you on most of what you say. Now tell me do the rest of your countrymen agree with you because for the last few pages and for a number of threads I don't remember any moderate view?

Now the thread is about reaching a settlement with a geographical term and Greeks say a grudging "Yes". Do you see any acceptance on that from your countrymen in this forum?

the point here isnot about the Macedonian scientific claims. i have read their article and i agree with you
from a scientific point of view it is worthy nil, nada, 0 (and given MY field of knowledge, i know exactly what i mean)
i am reacting basically on what you wrotte
do i need to quote it again :
Credible scientists do crdibles scientists do what ? they have proven that modern greeks are descent of Mighty Alexander
surely not
they have proven that Greeks are genetically homogeneous : surely not (none population is)
they have proven that bones in ancient macedonian tombs share the same genetic markers than modern greeks : not
if you have scientifc sources (and if it is your field, you know which source i mean and what Impact Factor and newspaper is important) then i wait for them
until then your assessment over any scientific demonstration is as worthy as the demonstration of the other side and so you compromise your field
that was the point of my post about "don't play the scientific card"

as for the rest of your post you'll be astonished about the number of my countrymen that are tired of this battle over a name
astonishely you hear on that forum only the extrem point of view but the common average joe is bored with that
i guess that except some ****heads from each side of the border, people have to much to care of (how to survive in everyday's life under difficult economic conditions for example) to rant about it anymore
yet as i said this could be a fine issue for internal policy lure

[justasoldier]

Credible scientists, and no I don't mean your pseudo- scientists, do. What misconceptions you hold are of no concern whatsoever

It would help a lot if you define how for example a scientist is considered to be credible.Or it comes to if it pro Greek it is credible end if not is pseudo whatever?


It is rather our businessmen and state chose to do business with you when none other would.
You trying to convince me that your came here to do business because ,,none other would,, or they came because they pay 150 euros salaries per worker instead of 500 euros that they should of pay to an average worker in Greece?And of course when you mention that money did not exactly came from the Greek state.You know it.


Again, guess what would happen if we ( private and state owned business) left.
Most of your companies did left i.e one of the biggest ones COSMOTE and you know what happened?The Slovenians bought it.Simple as that.Life goes on.


Go ahead and Google who has pushed and keeps pushing the E.U membership for the entire region the past 20 years Sherlock.
Oh of course.The engine of the Eu integrations.If it wouldn't be offtopic it would be interesting on how many EU decisions Greece played against.

You choose to piss on our foot so don't complain when we react.
So it is only your foot that matters?


We don't hand out charity.
But you did asked it recently.


Not one tear will be shed here if your country disintegrates.
It is quite clear.To be more precise that would be the best scenario isn't it?Like i said it before it is interesting that it doesn't take too much for you to be honest.


We helped you out last time and we still get zero for that help.
FFS you gave 5 jeeps and APC and 2 helis without any technical documentation.What's the big deal?


I would be really pleased if we did zero for you next time.

One thing that we agree.It would pleased me more if you do nothing whatsoever.


No problem. You don't want a settlement, you want to keep up with the usual chest thumping, baseless claims and propaganda. Fine, then pay the consequences. You bite the hand that feeds and sustains you. In that case lets see how you do without us.
And finally that is the exact same attitude that were getting all along.If you don't like it fine.And here you'll say that we are looking for a compromise.



And i could not resist the irony in you post.


Not one tear will be shed here if your country disintegrates.

You bite the hand that feeds and sustains you.






In my region thousands of tourists come from FYROM with their cars and nothing happens to them. .
Of course

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9468/e6f4aa0928742743a9bd18f.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5130/ff7cd9d8b7f40f498690bb4.jpg



+1 . That is the main beef with us. Leave that be and after that everything will turn up roses.

Please be honest,does Greece or you as a Greek accept this:

Country:Republic of Northern Macedonia
Nationality:Macedonian
Language:Macedonian

[G3SG1]

I'm glad I live in America.

There's too much historical and identity baggage in Europe bogging it down.

The Macedonians and Greeks deserve each other.

Good riddence.



I am glad we live here in the Balkans with all our differences and problems and we don't have to go oversees to kill other people, shouting that we liberate them.
It's a different thing to get into wars with countries for territorial disputes like we do in the Balkans and another thing to go and shoot
people who never harmed your nation and you in American schools can't locate em in a global map.


I hope this will not earn me more infraction points. It's a simple political observation and an answer to our friend Ordie who writes like he is the Grand Master of the Lodge.:)

[RWR]

This whole argument started with our favorite Bosniak troll Bathinus trying to throw a bone of contention between Serbs and Greeks, hence my comment of FYROM Macdonians and Bosniaks having much in common - a need to redefine newly coined identity (although, admittedly, FYROM has at least couple of decades ahead of the latter).

Nothing new about 900 years old Bosniak indentity, thank you very much...unlike Serb which didn't existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina till 19 century and mass Serbization of orthodox Bosniaks and nomad Vlachs.
Even fathers of hegemonist Greater Serbia idea acknowledged this fact.

117595

117596

[Shurik SST]

first thanks for your cool headed and well thought and explained post
it changes from some crap that was thrown here and there in this thread

now sorry if you misunderstood me
i never said that there was no Greeks before the invention of nation states
i just dare to say that there was not a Greece state before 1830
futhermore history is a continuity with foggy borders

What is a greek culture
is it Minoan, is it Achean, is it Dorian ?
i dare to say that it is a mix of all that but at the same time it is not a single of any of them because culture changes through time with invasions, occupation foreign influence, internal influence and so on
Ancient Greek culture was the descent of a mix of all what i listed above
preMedieval Greek culture as well as a huge part of eastern europe was a mix of Orientalised roman culture + local and regional influences
Modern day Greek culture is the faaar descent of all that, yet it is not exactly the same because it was also born (in blood and pain) during Turkish occupation

all that to say that the culture argument is somewhat complicated and that turning a nowaday political issue about culture and history is IMHO ridiculous moreover based on events without precise and unquestionable sources

And I applaud you, you're not a bad guy. I have good will to both Macedonians and Greeks, regardless of their internal dispute.

With regards to your reply, I would like to say that no Greek nation-state before 1830 is irrelevant because we are talking culture, language and other things that are above nation-states. Culture is the argument. Minoan and Dorian cultures both belong to the Greek nation. No matter if they are diverse, they are still a product of the Greek culture. Just because there are disagreements in fine details, we can still conclude that ancient Macedonian culture was a part of the larger Greek culture. I find the argument that it is hard to show direct continuity or that "history is foggy" not correct. That is a kind of argument people use when there is no good argument against. It is a bit of a cop out in my mind. Just because there are finer points that are lost or details we miss like actual territorial extent of some culture does not mean we can just dismiss the larger truths.

You call for unquestionable sources - every source in history is questionable. We were not there, we got fragments and pieces. We cant go back in time to see it for ourselves. But some larger truths are still evident from the remnants of what we have. In this case, it is a very clear Greek identity of ancient Macedonian kingdom and culture.

For example, using a distinctly Greek culture symbol, the Vergina Sun, as an inspiration to the current Macedonian state flag really is reaching into another culture to show continuity. This is inflammatory and will not help in establishing a modern identity of Slavic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Macedonia_%28country%29

I would agree that some of our Greek members mentioning "1200 tanks" or somesuch is misguided and wrong too. It may have been in jest but still, uncalled for and inflaming the sentiments needlessly.

RWR, you are polluting the thread with silly OT. Start your own and do not flame needlessly, please. Thanks.

[Aor]

they have proven that Greeks are genetically homogeneous : surely not (none population is)
True. That can't happen since than we would all be exact duplicates of each other, but in all geographic regions and in situations where for a number of reasons procreation was limited there are similarities for a larger number of genes in that population than between different populations.
they have proven that bones in ancient macedonian tombs share the same genetic markers than modern greeks : not
To my knowledge there has been no such experiment. A genetic research is accurate if it includes a number of genetic markers. The more genetic markers one puts into the equation the better. Now there have been a number of genetic studies with the most credible the ones conducted during the Human Genome Project where various populations were studied. What these surveys show are similarities and differences between certain genetic footprints. There is no "Greek gene".
if you have scientifc sources (and if it is your field, you know which source i mean and what Impact Factor and newspaper is important) then i wait for them
until then your assessment over any scientific demonstration is as worthy as the demonstration of the other side and so you compromise your field
that was the point of my post about "don't play the scientific card"

As I said Human Genome Project and after that you'll have to comb hundreds of genetic studies, many of which are found on medical journals, for certain geographic regions and populations in order to have a pattern. Because that is too much and requires dedicated research you'll have to take my word for it that certain genetic diseases are found only on certain populations and variations are met on sub populations thus by proxy one can come to a conclusion in conjunction to ethnological and historical data about population movements.

The distinct difference about Greek populations is that many alleles that are responsible for certain genetic diseases often are uniform for Greek populations when that is not the case for predominately Slavic populations, like the ones in FYROM or Serbia.

Since the number of publications is too numerous to post and If I post only a number of those you'll rightfully accuse me for pointing you to a direction I would want you to be steered to, I invite you to make your own search

For any detailed info please sent a pm. I do not want to reveal too much info about my person with any public answers.
as for the rest of your post you'll be astonished about the number of my countrymen that are tired of this battle over a name
astonishely you hear on that forum only the extrem point of view but the common average joe is bored with that
i guess that except some ****heads from each side of the border, people have to much to care of (how to survive in everyday's life under difficult economic conditions for example) to rant about it anymore
yet as i said this could be a fine issue for internal policy lure That is also true here. Believe it or not this news was hardly mentioned here. So under no circumstance can this be viewed as a diversion from more pressing issues. If anything I think there is an effort to close any external problems possible so that we'll be able to better focus on the financial crisis plaguing us.

[Thugut]

Even if the Makedonskis were recognized as "Macedonians" internationally, it wouldn't change anything.
All their neighbors (Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs) all are very well aware of what they really are: Bulgarians that found themselves on the wrong side of the border, and had to invent a nationality to justify the very existence of their state.

Now personally, I am fine with them having their own nationality. It's their right after all. But if they are going to try to:

1) appropriate foreign heroes
2) insult neighbors
3) rewrite history
4) tear a new a**hole in the space-time continuum by claiming they are descendants of people that ceased to exist as a separate culture 1,000 years before they even arrived in the region on their ox-carts in the 7th century,

well... I'll just have to call them out for what they are:

Posers

[Aor]

Since your post is one gigantic flaime bait justasoldier I will keep my hands clean and refrain from any dialogue.
Please be honest,does Greece or you as a Greek accept this:

Country:Republic of Northern Macedonia
Nationality:Macedonian
Language:Macedonian

I will answer this since it is straightforward.

a) If it is used as a geographical term, then grudgingly yes ( that is the only thing we have a clear proposal from our government by the way)

For the rest we only agree you use the term Macedonia as a geographical term and in no other way. So no we don't see you using the term Macedonia with no added adjectives to define ethnicity or language. Maybe an added adjective indicating ethnicity like Slavic could do, or something like "northern Makedonski" that underlines that this language is confined to your country alone, does not include the whole region of Macedonia and in no way does it lay claim to the legacy, history or traditions of Greece in any way. But that is my opinion.

[justasoldier]

Simple question that i think is fair and i would like to be clear with the fellow Greek members.
Will Greece as a state and the Greek people agree on the solution:

Country:Republic of Northern Macedonia
Nationality:Macedonian
Language:Macedonian

As for the history i'll leave it to the historians.Our simple demand is more less the second 2 graphs.
Thank you.



Since your post is one gigantic flaime bait justasoldier I will keep my hands clean and refrain from any dialogue.
Of course when it comes from this side it is a provocation or flame bait.I expected no less.I simply answered to what you claimed.You did however brought the 1200 tanks doing nothing argument.Anyway i do regret if anyone find something offensive in my post.


I will answer this since it is straightforward.
a) If it is used as a geographical term, then grudgingly yes ( that is the only thing we have a clear proposal from our government by the way)
For the rest we only agree you use the term Macedonia as a geographical term and in no other way. So no we don't see you using the term Macedonia with no added adjectives to define ethnicity or language. Maybe an added adjective indicating ethnicity like Slavic could do, or something like "northern Makedonski" that underlines that this language is confined to your country alone, does not include the whole region of Macedonia and in no way does it lay claim to the legacy, history or traditions of Greece in any way. But that is my opinion.
To put it in simple English it is not a name issue but a negation of a nation's identity.That is why it will never be solved.There isn't a single soul her that would accept someone else to decide on how we feel.Thank you for your honest reply.

[Paya]

I'm glad I live in America.

There's too much historical and identity baggage in Europe bogging it down.

The Macedonians and Greeks deserve each other.

Good riddence.
Oh, go bring peace to the Middle East or something, will you?


Nothing new about 900 years old Bosniak indentity, thank you very much...unlike Serb which didn't existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina till 19 century and mass Serbization of orthodox Bosniaks and nomad Vlachs.
Even fathers of hegemonist Greater Serbia idea acknowledged this fact.

117595

117596
You have a 19th century Serbian romantic nationalist text saved on your HD for the purpose of proving the antiquity of your nation?

How very Balkan of you.

[Homer]

Why not West Bulgaria?

It would be more accurate.

How about they drop their claims to Ancient Greek history, and accept the ancient history of the territory that encompasses their country?
Only some southern parts of FYROM, namely Monastiri(Bitola), were ever actually part of the Ancient Macedonian kingdom. And up until recent times, they were still inhabited by majority Greeks.

The Republic of Paeonia.

Simple. Then they can be free of claims they are Bulgarian or Serbian, and they wont have a need to claim our history and part of our identity, because they will have their own exclusive identity.
Something that they argue that they want all the time in the name dispute talks with Greece and the UN.

If recent reports are to be believed, they better hurry up and settle this dispute with Greece because certain elements are gearing up for another crack around Tetovo.
They got our help last time. I'd like to think we would help them again, this time without the shadow of the name dispute.



Simple question that i think is fair and i would like to be clear with the fellow Greek members.
Will Greece as a state and the Greek people agree on the solution:

Country:Republic of Northern Macedonia
Nationality:Macedonian
Language:Macedonian


Greece as a state, as in it's people? Never going to happen.
Greece as in it's lame politicians? They are probably torn between the pressure they are getting from Washington to end this so Washington can continue it's goals in the region, and the fact that if they ever accepted such a thing, they would never hold a position in parliament again, let alone be elected as a mayor of some village with more goats and chickens then people.




To put it in simple English it is not a name issue but a negation of a nation's identity.That is why it will never be solved.There isn't a single soul her that would accept someone else to decide on how we feel.Thank you for your honest reply.

You are right it is not a name issue, that is what most outsiders see it as.
It is about a new nation, trying to lay claim to another nations long history, to forge it's own identity out of that nations heritage by taking part of their identity.

At the end of the day, as I said above, the territory of FYROM has an identity and it is not Greek.

[ABN MP]

If those cars come with a Vergina Sun on them or a map claiming Greek territories it is something to be expected. In my region thousands of tourists come from FYROM with their cars and nothing happens to them. The only vandalizing I have personally seen was 15 years ago when some boys stuffed the exhaust pipe of a car with cucumbers.
The thing that sucks is that our tags have MK on them. I personally haven't had anything happen to our car and the last incident was a year ago so I think people realized those tags were not even driven by people from FYROM. Only other people.

[iloxos]

Name another example of a similar demand brought by a country/nation worldwide.

Please name me another country worldwide that claims another nations history and heritage…



Second problem that VID brought it up.Since he and you claim that this nation was invented by the evil red comunists,why Greece as a state or the people who were friends to the Greeks within the exYu-state and clearly had the power to act, people such as VID clearly pointed out he is,didn't raise this question immediately or during the period when Yougoslavia existed as a state and where the Macedonian people was clearly recognized as a nation?

During cold war we saw Yugoslavs (south slavs) as Slavs of Croatian, Serb, Slovenian and Bulgarian ancestry and Bulgarians as Bulgarians. Their minorities were treated as usual the same way we there treated here: In one night Bulgarians of Serbia became “macedonians” the same way muslim Pomaks and Roma of Greece and Turkey became “turks”.

Since we are responsible for humiliating pomaks and roma making these people confused about what they are that’s why I said I fell pity about your people….

Cold War politics fvcked up a lot of people. We had our part in that and that a part of history we are ashamed of.


Maybe because during that time Iloxos would think twice before he would made a statement like this bellow:
Now imagine that.The Greek state and economy was barely saved from a total bankruptcy,and now suddenly the same bankrupt economy will come up with miracle money to finance a whole war,and at the same time will continue to help the NATO effort worldwide?

Greek State is in poor condition. Not the people. Not the church. The 300billE dept can be easily payed off in a case of war just from peoples offers. Church owns more that 250billE in land, buildings and investments abroad and domestically. Rich people have only in Switzerland 60billE in banks. More in Cyprus, Panama etc. Do you think they will not pay for a war? That’s the same people that paid A/B Balkan Wars, WWi/ii wars etc when we were really poor.


Not mentioning that the army has/had/will have supplies and fuel to make a war with Turkey anytime/anywhere.So please don’t worry about our ability to fight but your ability to defend.


There will be no solution.Not as long is a biased one.If this was a simple historical issue or a claim that someone is trying to steal someone others history then Greece as a state wouldn't raise the question at all.If they have the scientific means to dispute and reject the claims then the whole world would accepted it and i as a Macedonian would asked not to be called as such.Until then like i said there will be no solution that my people would accept.Not a one that goes counter my believes of what i am.

You can believe that you are Chinese. I don’t really care as long you don’t claim you are Macedonian/Greek. Take a region name as I ve said that’s ok with us. Taking our history is CASUS BELI. If we had politicians in the statue of west europe that matter would have ended back in 1991.


As for the EU and NATO perspectives,well we did all that was asked from us.If that is not enough then thank you.We will always be friends to those who want us to be friendly with, and recognized my nation and for which i am grateful,as for the others well life goes on.What would a small artificial nation mean as another enemy on the mighty ,,1200 tanks parked around doing nothing,, state member of EU and NATO?

A “friend” doesn’t try to fvck his friend’s mother whatever his size. Greeks are people that have history in their blood more that anyone else. Try to understand that for a start. Try to undestand how WE feel.


Oh i forgot i asked Aor once and now you,you often seem to raise the question of,, we gave millions of dollars to the FYROMians invested in the economy etc etc,,.It turned out that that money didn't exactly came form Greece doesn't it?It would be much wiser if you instead invested in your country and leave the evil FYROMians to drown in their own evil no economy poor part of nameless country?

Yes it would. Please return 19 years of help (that’s 19 X ~50/100millE) so we can return them to Germany.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha.... that's so true man. iloxos, i hear the rubber hose is a part of any tank crew in helass... just in case they need to "borrow" some diesel fuel from the vans and trucks which are also parked around doing nothing. :)But seriously, what exactly did you mean by mentioning 1200 tanks!? M?

In your case and military abilities that 1200 M24, M47, M48A1 stored since … 1980s. You really didn’t think we would send Leo2s just to make a simple parade north didn’t you? We will make a even fight so you won't scream afterwards that we used 21 century weaponry.



Nobody here is trying to... god forbid (it's sort of a pejorative insult to be called a Greek in Macedonia, sorry... true)..

Macedonia IS Greece. Saying that you are Macedonian you are claiming you are Greek. If you claim you are greeks maybe we should make you a part of our state ;)



Yes, yes and... ummmm... yes. To say othervise would be plain stupid.

One country please in the western world that recognises a non greek Macedonian history???



Beats me... it must be something in the air. You can start by asking that question to yourself first, than to your Serb friends, and maybe to a Bulgarian if one crawls in this topic. For the Albanian point of view.. frankly i don't give a damn.

Hahahahahahahahaha


And who do we prove to our Macedonian nationality and history!? You!? C'mooon... keep being proud of your 300.000.000.000 euro debt.

We are proud also of 4000 years of history. Try to expand yours more that 100 years. Don’t prove it to us PLEASE. Stay a landlocked -isolated from EU- state.


Sure, now let's find a agreeable solutions for the "macedonians" living in Greece... southern macedonians, old macedonians, original taste macedonians? Take your pic.
Right back at ya! Troll par excellence.

Try Real Macedonians.

Troll is someone who has no evidence when claims the sun is dark green.

PS Thanks for the discussion and the time to share your ideas. :)


my dear greeks fellows, you can whine and turn around yelling yadayada about N.S.E.W Macedonia and totally forget that the IMF, EU and your gov will screw you in the next weeksmark my wordsand come back in let's say 2-3 months to tell me what is your level of unemployement, salary and civil unrest but how proud you where during 5 minutes for ranting on an internet forum

As AOR said 3 months in 2 months and 28 days more than a uprising from the Albanian oppressed minority and the creation of a new Greater Albania state.


It is perfectly normal and polite in the real world,that you do address to the people or a nation of a country the way they wish to call them self you know.

Yes as long they don’t claim they are us. Try a different name and we will recognise you in seconds.


Of course

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9468/e6f4aa0928742743a9bd18f.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5130/ff7cd9d8b7f40f498690bb4.jpg


Justasoldier firstly I would like to ask SORRY for all these pictures. LAOS is a political party taken from the normal people here as seriously as a paedophile in a kindergarten class. None gives a damn. Its whole purpose is to distract media/people attention so the two leading parties could steal more state money unnoticed along with the extreme leftist party of SYRIZA (the one that names you as Macedonians and the one whose posters you didn’t post). Both parties in the last elections had less than 200,000 votes in 6,500,000 voters.

PS Thanks for the discussion too :)

[V.I.D.]

Nothing new about 900 years old Bosniak indentity, thank you very much...unlike Serb which didn't existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina till 19 century and mass Serbization of orthodox Bosniaks and nomad Vlachs.
Even fathers of hegemonist Greater Serbia idea acknowledged this fact.

117596

You really need to learn to keep your big mouth shut if you can't even lie like an intelligent human being. My family, yes, my direct ancestors (Malesevci clan) traded with Dubrovnik Republic in late 14th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%C5%A1evci) and they always lived in eastern Herzegovina and there are written documents in Dubrovnik talking about this nobleman (Duke Males) and his family/clan protecting their caravans. They were always considered Serbs and they have always lived in Bosnia/Herzegovina you shameless little troll. So why don't you go and hide somewhere with your new-found nationality and where you can never come back here again and pollute these threads. You have no shame and you have even less brains to even cover up for it. "No Serbs in Bosnia until 19th century"....pathetic loser.

[justasoldier]

Please name me another country worldwide that claims another nations history and heritage…
By answering to a simple question with a question i take it as you don't have an answer as i expected.Nevertheless i can name 30 unbiased sources that concludes the same,this is the far most stupidest diplomatic issue.And it is.

During cold war we saw Yugoslavs (south slavs) as Slavs of Croatian, Serb, Slovenian and Bulgarian ancestry and Bulgarians as Bulgarians. Their minorities were treated as usual the same way we there treated here: In one night Bulgarians of Serbia became “macedonians” the same way muslim Pomaks and Roma of Greece and Turkey became “turks”.
That is utter bull and you know it.Back on this page there were evidence posted that this wasn't the case.Macedonians were defined as a nation in the Yougoslavian constitution.And you didn't object it for 50 years.

Greek State is in poor condition. Not the people. Not the church. The 300billE dept can be easily payed off in a case of war just from peoples offers. Church owns more that 250billE in land, buildings and investments abroad and domestically. Rich people have only in Switzerland 60billE in banks. More in Cyprus, Panama etc. Do you think they will not pay for a war? That’s the same people that paid A/B Balkan Wars, WWi/ii wars etc when we were really poor.
Are you serious?

Not mentioning that the army has/had/will have supplies and fuel to make a war with Turkey anytime/anywhere.So please don’t worry about our ability to fight but your ability to defend.
I know it is offtopic but couldn't resist it.So why in hell don't you send a 500-1000 men to help the effort in Afghanistan i.e ?

I don’t really care as long you don’t claim you are Macedonian/Greek.
It is really confusing now.Are you Greek or Macedonian?

A “friend” doesn’t try to fvck his friend’s mother whatever his size. Greeks are people that have history in their blood more that anyone else. Try to understand that for a start. Try to undestand how WE feel.
120+ countries recognized my country and people by our chosen name.As for the history like a said a don't give a damn.Leave it to the historians.Or judging by it maybe you'll start a dispute with India and Iran claiming the land that Alexander conquered?Like i said it is not a secret that 80% of serious people in the world find the dispute stupid.

Yes it would. Please return 19 years of help (that’s 19 X ~50/100millE) so we can return them to Germany.
Give us back our 500 mil* first.

*Do not ask me what 500 mil.It came from the same source from which the ,,19 years of help (that’s 19 X ~50/100millE),, came.

In your case and military abilities that 1200 M24, M47, M48A1 stored since … 1980s. You really didn’t think we would send Leo2s just to make a simple parade north didn’t you? We will make a even fight so you won't scream afterwards that we used 21 century weaponry.

As AOR said 3 months in 2 months and 28 days more than a uprising from the Albanian oppressed minority and the creation of a new Greater Albania state.
Nice flaming.

Justasoldier firstly I would like to ask SORRY for all these pictures.
I simply answered Aor.I didn't put those signs.That is Greece welcoming people from Macedonia or Turkey.


LAOS is a political party taken from the normal people here as seriously as a paedophile in a kindergarten class.

The party failed to reach the 3% threshold of the popular vote in the 2004 elections, with 2.2%; three months later it gained 4.12% of the vote and one seat in the 2004 European Parliamentary Elections. LAOS received 3.8% of the vote in the 2007 elections, electing 10 members of parliament. In 2009 LAOS managed to elect two representatives in the European Parliament, receiving 7.14% of the vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Orthodox_Rally

None gives a damn. Its whole purpose is to distract media/people attention so the two leading parties could steal more state money unnoticed along with the extreme leftist party of SYRIZA (the one that names you as Macedonians and the one whose posters you didn’t post). Both parties in the last elections had less than 200,000 votes in 6,500,000 voters.
Your governement stealing your money.Makes it your problem.


PS Thanks for the discussion too :)
Glad to be of help.Stay safe.

[iloxos]

By answering to a simple question with a question i take it as you don't have an answer as i expected.Nevertheless i can name 30 unbiased sources that concludes the same,this is the far most stupidest diplomatic issue.And it is.

Can you name one please? Which country claims its neighbours race?


That is utter bull and you know it.Back on this page there were evidence posted that this wasn't the case.Macedonians were defined as a nation in the Yougoslavian constitution.And you didn't object it for 50 years.

We didn't object that pomaks were turks too. Cold war ended in 1991 and pomaks became again pomaks. Same with Yugoslavia. A nation is more than papers in a made federal goverment. Its common blood, language, culture and history. What is the difference between you and bulgarians before 1945 and an accent???


I know it is offtopic but couldn't resist it.So why in hell don't you send a 500-1000 men to help the effort in Afghanistan i.e ?

We have a battalion there. We also have a 170,000 army/navy/airforce. Thats almost 3billEs a year for maintenace, salaries and purchaces.


It is really confusing now.Are you Greek or Macedonian?

Its the same. Greek, Macedonian, Achaian, Dorian, Ionian, Aeolian, Pelasgian, Cypriot, Pontiac, East Roman are all the same = Hellenes.


120+ countries recognized my country and people by our chosen name.As for the history like a said a don't give a damn.Leave it to the historians.Or judging by it maybe you'll start a dispute with India and Iran claiming the land that Alexander conquered?Like i said it is not a secret that 80% of serious people in the world find the dispute stupid.



But as i ve said we will recongise you as *macedonians (where *=north, west, black, red, green, slav, japanese, etc) as long you will excpet that you are not greeks or a greek race (aka macedonian) No problem there. We have no dispute over SOIL or BORDERS. Just RACE.

80% - 99% find it stupid. The 1% that can keep you in 20th century for ever find it serious.


Give us back our 500 mil* first.

*Do not ask me what 500 mil.It came from the same source from which the ,,19 years of help (that’s 19 X ~50/100millE),, came.

thats is from a daily newspaper arguing why we should provide 74millE back in 2003. http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_21/02/2003_54639

just google greek media. The same amount went into albania too every year.


The party failed to reach the 3% threshold of the popular vote in the 2004 elections, with 2.2%; three months later it gained 4.12% of the vote and one seat in the 2004 European Parliamentary Elections. LAOS received 3.8% of the vote in the 2007 elections, electing 10 members of parliament. In 2009 LAOS managed to elect two representatives in the European Parliament, receiving 7.14% of the vote.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Orthodox_Rally

As i said they are a joke. Imagine that most hard liners there haven't been in the army.



Anyway to end the discussion do you understand its clearly a historical arguing? We have absolutely no problem to recognise a state with a name that has macedonia as an area and not as a race-nation.

North Macedonia is ok. The language/race can be recognised as slav-macedonian. Do you have a problem with that?

[justasoldier]

Can you name one please? Which country claims its neighbours race?
I'm done with the issue.

We didn't object that pomaks were turks too. Cold war ended in 1991 and pomaks became again pomaks. Same with Yugoslavia. A nation is more than papers in a made federal goverment. Its common blood, language, culture and history.
Sorry i'm not in the nationalistic rhetorics mood.People are what they feel they are end of story.

What is the difference between you and bulgarians before 1945 and an accent???
That we are not Bulgarians.

Its the same. Greek, Macedonian, Achaian, Dorian, Ionian, Aeolian, Pelasgian, Cypriot, Pontiac, East Roman are all the same = Hellenes.
It is simple,are you a Greek or whatever else on the 2 mile list?


But as i ve said we will recongise you as *macedonians (where *=north, west, black, red, green, slav, japanese, etc) as long you will excpet that you are not greeks or a greek race (aka macedonian) No problem there.
You see that is the problem.I do not have the habit for people to tell me what i am.So how you see me that's your problem.I'm fine with that.But keep it to yourself.

We have no dispute over SOIL or BORDERS. Just RACE.
You do understand that you just accused yourself on being racist?


thats is from a daily newspaper arguing why we should provide 74millE back in 2003. http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_21/02/2003_54639
But of course it is 19 x 74 million when it suits your arguments?Like i said let's just concentrate on the subject.It is not that someone is going to believe those number after that debt fiasko.

As i said they are a joke. Imagine that most hard liners there haven't been in the army.
I find it offensive.But of course you do not care how i find it.Which i understand.It is your country you do what you wish.

Anyway to end the discussion do you understand its clearly a historical arguing?
I do.But historical arguing is purely scientific in the normal world.As you mentioned couple of lines above it became racist.

We have absolutely no problem to recognise a state with a name that has macedonia as an area and not as a race-nation.
It is all about you you you.Fine i am perfectly aware of what it is.,,Not a race-nation,, exactly.That is why will never be solved.

North Macedonia is ok. The language/race can be recognised as slav-macedonian. Do you have a problem with that?
Yes me and 2-3 millions more like me.We do.Here is my proposal:How about naming your region Greek Macedonia and the people who are Greeks but at the same time Macedonians(or whatever from the list of nationalities you mention it) to Greek Macedonians?

[iloxos]

Yes me and 2-3 millions more like me.We do.Here is my proposal:How about naming your region Greek Macedonia and the people who are Greeks but at the same time Macedonians(or whatever from the list of nationalities you mention it) to Greek Macedonians?

To end the discussion that could be a nice idea. Macedon Kingdom of Alexander and the whole era can be renamed to Greek-Macedon Kingdom too.

Would you accept a Slav Macedonia name? Can you accept that your people arrived in balkans after the 7th century?

[justasoldier]

To end the discussion that could be a nice idea. Macedon Kingdom of Alexander and the whole era can be renamed to Greek-Macedon Kingdom too.
Fine by me.As far as i am concerned you could add Cezar and Genghis Khan to it.


Would you accept a Slav Macedonia name?
No.

Can you accept that your people arrived in balkans after the 7th century?
Sorry wasn't there.I remember as far as my grand grand parents and they were Macedonians,as for before how to h*ll should i know.I'm not an historian,and actually i don't give a d*mn.The present and the future is what concerns me.

[themacedonian]

To end the discussion that could be a nice idea. Macedon Kingdom of Alexander and the whole era can be renamed to Greek-Macedon Kingdom too.

Would you accept a Slav Macedonia name? Can you accept that your people arrived in balkans after the 7th century?

we are not Slavic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples#Genetics



However, some southern Slavic populations such as Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29) and Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan) region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Slavs)..."[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples#cite_note-R.C4.99ba.C5.82a_et_al._2007:_408-21)


These Slavic people came they settled in the area but obviously the area was not a deserted place. They intermingled and intermarried.

Also note that even the Bulgarians came in with different language and accepted the local language. Only their name remained.

The area of Macedonia is NOT the same place it was 2300 hundred years ago.

[iloxos]

Justasoldier you must decide an ethnicity. If you decide that you are macedonian born in MODERN macedonia area we will accept that BUT your state/contitution and historians must accept the greek heritage to the name previous 20th century. We will call you north macedonians the same way we call north koreans.

The historic problem is the ONLY problem.

themacedonian so what are you? when and where did your people came? bulgarians were something else before the were turned into slavs the same ways egyptians turned into arab-egyptians. People evolve either by culture or language or blood or relligion. we evolved in the same way in relligion and in small part by blood.

Are you claiming a similar case? Are you former greek or illyrian or paeonian that turned slav? illuminate me please because really i can't understand how you think... :(

[TuRRiCaN]

It's amusing how people strive to find things that separate them from one another. The Balkans is especially notorious for this. Perhaps if the occupants came from different planets...

[justasoldier]

Justasoldier you must decide an ethnicity. If you decide that you are macedonian born in MODERN macedonia area we will accept that BUT your state/contitution and historians must accept the greek heritage to the name previous 20th century. We will call you north macedonians the same way we call north koreans.
Koreans are Koreans.There is no difference between them whatsoever.As i stated i don't give a da*n on how you call us.And my country has a clear stance on that issue.If it comes to Greece they can call/name us whatever they like.But there is no way that they can interfere in how we call ourselves internally or with the rest of the world.Period.


The historic problem is the ONLY problem.
Historic rethorics is the mother of bull*it on Balkans.Like Churchill once said the problem with the Balkans is that it produces more history that it can consume.Like i said it is the present and future that concerns me.

[themacedonian]

Justasoldier you must decide an ethnicity. If you decide that you are macedonian born in MODERN macedonia area we will accept that BUT your state/contitution and historians must accept the greek heritage to the name previous 20th century. We will call you north macedonians the same way we call north koreans.

The historic problem is the ONLY problem.

themacedonian so what are you? when and where did your people came? bulgarians were something else before the were turned into slavs the same ways egyptians turned into arab-egyptians. People evolve either by culture or language or blood or relligion. we evolved in the same way in relligion and in small part by blood.

Are you claiming a similar case? Are you former greek or illyrian or paeonian that turned slav? illuminate me please because really i can't understand how you think... :(

I am Macedonian :)

The tribes that you are talking about existed over 2000 years ago. Now there are no Illyrians, paeonians, dardanians, thracians ..... different ancient world.

Born in Prilep, Orthodox Christian.

I consider Alexander a part and at that a small part of the history of my people. I am not obsessed with Alexander.

I consider Alexander a common ancestor to the people in Macedonia and Greece because simply he was a common ancestor. I doubt that his genes progressed for more than 50 years after he was gone. His rule was famous and romantic and lasted for about 10 years.

What about the rest of the 2300 years since then?!

It is comical to be obsessed with Alexander and Phillip after so many years.

[Aor]

Fine by me.As far as i am concerned you could add Cezar and Genghis Khan to it.


No.

Sorry wasn't there.I remember as far as my grand grand parents and they were Macedonians,as for before how to h*ll should i know.I'm not an historian,and actually i don't give a d*mn.The present and the future is what concerns me. You contradict yourself. On one side you don't think you are Slavs ( that you are and beats me why you find that unacceptable), you don't know what you are and yet you claim you are ethnic Macedonians, inheritors of Alexander the Greats legacy.

Talk about identity issues...

If it were the present and future that concerned you, then you would have left our history alone and there would not be a dispute.

[Aor]

I am Macedonian :)

The tribes that you are talking about existed over 2000 years ago. Now there are no Illyrians, paeonians, dardanians, thracians ..... different ancient world.

Born in Prilep, Orthodox Christian.

I consider Alexander a part and at that a small part of the history of my people. I am not obsessed with Alexander.

I consider Alexander a common ancestor to the people in Macedonia and Greece because simply he was a common ancestor. I doubt that his genes progressed for more than 50 years after he was gone. His rule was famous and romantic and lasted for about 10 years.

What about the rest of the 2300 years since then?!

It is comical to be obsessed with Alexander and Phillip after so many years.

Really? Alexander is part of the Greek civilization, period. Any other "we are the world" like globalisation crap does not pass, especially when your nation claims that Alexander was not part of the Greek civilizaton, Greek presence was non existent in the area of Macedonia and there is no continuity between the ancient world and present day.

Try to make such claims to other old civilizations like the Chinese, the Indians or the Jews and you'll get a mouthful or a fistful of knuckles.

[Hyde]

The Greeks will not allow you to call yourselves Macedonains, as you are not the descendants of the ancient Macedonians just because you live on their land, and thus would take over the Macedonian history which is not your history. While the Greeks can claim to at least be of the same "kind" as the ancient Macedonians, or rather that the ancient Macedonians where a part of the Greek people, you are Slavic people (even if you got mixed up with other folks over the past 1400 years, you are still slavic at base) and thus they will never allow you to take over their history and present yourself to the world as "Macedonians, the descendants of Alexander the Great". Simple as that. And I can't blame them, as much as I like the (FY) Macedonian people as a nation and as individuals. According to the Wikipedia entry, the Serbs are as much (or as little) Slavic as the Macedonians and Bulgarians, so what are they then? Greeks, too? Because they use the Greek word for thousand instead of the Slavic word for thousand? Come on... :roll:

[themacedonian]

well have a nice day from the people of Republic of Macedonia.

[themacedonian]

The Greeks will not allow you to call yourselves Macedonains, as you are not the descendants of the ancient Macedonians just because you live on their land, and thus would take over the Macedonian history which is not your history.

how the history of the land is not my history? Even if those people were Martians that would still be part of my history.

There is a castle in the mountain above me. It belonged to Marko Krale and Vukashin. They were from a Serbian family. Ruled the area for that short period.
How is that NOT part of my history.

Down the same mountain there are Roman graves with latin letters. How is that not part of my history?

There are Roman early period churches however current churches are part of the Orthodox church. How are those churches not part of my history even though the language of the time was latin.

I don't think you know what history is.

The history of Macedonia never ended and it belongs to ALL that live there.

[Aor]

how the history of the land is not my history? Even if those people were Martians that would still be part of my history.

There is a castle in the mountain above me. It belonged to Marko Krale and Vukashin. They were from a Serbian family. Ruled the area for that short period.
How is that NOT part of my history.

Down the same mountain there are Roman graves with latin letters. How is that not part of my history?

There are Roman early period churches however current churches are part of the Orthodox church. How are those churches not part of my history even though the language of the time was latin.

I don't think you know what history is.

The history of Macedonia never ended and it belongs to ALL that live there.
to complete your thought

... as long as you believe Macedonians are a distinct nation with no relation to the Greek world...

am I correct? :roll:

[Homer]

we are not Slavic.


To those who are basically 'outsiders' on this issue, here is pretty much in four words, why this issue hasn't been solved, and wont be solved for a long time to come.

They basically want to be something that they logically can not be.

What they claim goes against all written and known history and historical facts, including actual physical evidence.

If you think you get frustrated trying to understand this situation, try imagine how we, as Greeks, feel and how frustrated we get, trying to deal with people who deny factual truths.
It's like that old saying, in one ear out the other.



how the history of the land is not my history? Even if those people were Martians that would still be part of my history.


It's part of the history of the land. It's not part of your ethnic identity.

We don't go claiming the Roman Empire was ours, just because Rome conquered Greece.
Sure that's part of our history, but we aren't laying claim to the legacy of Rome.

understand the difference?



There is a castle in the mountain above me. It belonged to Marko Krale and Vukashin. They were from a Serbian family. Ruled the area for that short period.
How is that NOT part of my history

Down the same mountain there are Roman graves with latin letters. How is that not part of my history?

There are Roman early period churches however current churches are part of the Orthodox church. How are those churches not part of my history even though the language of the time was latin.See above.




I don't think you know what history is.
Maybe you should study your own people's history first before telling others they don't know history.
You deny you are a Slav, despite the fact you are one.



The history of Macedonia never ended and it belongs to ALL that live there.Then why is FYROM trying to claim the entire history, name, events, you name it etc, for it self?

Greece is actually saying that you should use a term in front of Macedonia to make the destinction between the Greek region of Macedonia where the Ancient kingdom once stood, and your new country which is a separate entity completely.

But the problem here is that you can't accept that you have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia and Alexander the Great.
You deny that you are Slavs.
You believe that you aren't Slavs, not Greek, not Bulgarian, nothing, except some separate ethnic race. Funny thing is nobody has ever heard of your exclusive race till now.

[justasoldier]

Let me just quote Iloxos again, i think it gives a pretty good picture of the real reasons behind this so called dispute.



But as i ve said we will recongise you as *macedonians (where *=north, west, black, red, green, slav, japanese, etc) as long you will excpet that you are not greeks or a greek race (aka macedonian) No problem there. We have no dispute over SOIL or BORDERS. Just RACE.
We have absolutely no problem to recognise a state with a name that has macedonia as an area and not as a race-nation.


To put it in simple as long there is the people on this soil there will be no solution that fits only Greek agenda.Simply whatever solution is brought it will be putted on a referendum.And it will be rejected.Simple as that.


You contradict yourself. On one side you don't think you are Slavs ( that you are and beats me why you find that unacceptable), you don't know what you are and yet you claim you are ethnic Macedonians, inheritors of Alexander the Greats legacy.
No.You seem to have a habit to read and interpret my posts they it fits your agenda.The question that Iloxos asked me was we(Macedonians) accept to be called Slav-MAcedonia?I replied No.And FFS i don't give a sh*t about Alexander if he was a Korean or Greek.Like the Macedonian said whatever is on our soil is part of our history.Not EXCLUSIVELY ours but PART of our history.


If it were the present and future that concerned you, then you would have left our history alone and there would not be a dispute.
Now if a simple reader just took a look on the last 13 pages it wouldn't be hard to notice who is the one obsessed with history.My future depends on me.You have no right to decide what my future will be.Thank you.

[JCR]

Despite Papanikolis and national debt I stand with the Greeks on this one :)
Macedonia/FYROM as it is today was a creation of post balkan wars diplomacy to deny the pro german bulgarians this area and give it to the pro russian serbs.

[iloxos]

justasoldier if you were born in africa after your grandfather immigrated there that makes you an african not a member of any tribes there. you surely can't create a state called Zulluand. the afrikaners never called themselves descendants of egyptians just because they were born in the same continent. Born in macedonia doesn't change the fact that you were NOT indigenous here as we are. You arrived after the 7th century and thats a fact globally.

I think you are really confused and you people just going on ranting like the husband whos wife sleeps around and knows it, but he insists out of humiliation and discrace that she is still a virgin....

Really out of my hard i feel pity about you. :(

[iloxos]

Let me just quote Iloxos again, i think it gives a pretty good picture of the real reasons behind this so called dispute.

To put in simple as long there is the people on this soil there will be no solution that fits only Greek agenda.Simply whatever solution is brought it will be putted on a referendum.And it will be rejected.Simple as that.

Yes simple as that. As HOMER said we were Romans for 1100 years - thats 20 times your history - we lived and died under latin names like Maximos or Constantine. Romans are a part of our history the same way italians have, but we can not claim Roman heritage since we become EAST Romans in the 3th AC century. That would be an insult to all the greek people that died under a gladio in the roman invasions.
The same way is obscure to claim that you have ancestry from alexander when his children @@@ slavs in the area for more than 700 years until the ottomans @@@ us and finished them off in the Balkan and World Wars wars.

[justasoldier]

The Greeks will not allow you
Allow us?it is like i need a clearance to exist right?Funny thing is that you guys(members of Serbian origin) lived for 50 years in same state with us.State which had a constitution where clearly was stated that Yougoslavia was state among others of the Macedonian people.50 years you had the chance on putting facts straight or challenge our nation in way that you do now,similar like Greece had the same chance.But yet no one did.And now 50 years after i read this big sentences full of sympathy towards the ,, (FY) Macedonian people,, but the time has come to settle things straight.

[Hyde]

how the history of the land is not my history? Even if those people were Martians that would still be part of my history.

There is a castle in the mountain above me. It belonged to Marko Krale and Vukashin. They were from a Serbian family. Ruled the area for that short period.
How is that NOT part of my history.

Down the same mountain there are Roman graves with latin letters. How is that not part of my history?

There are Roman early period churches however current churches are part of the Orthodox church. How are those churches not part of my history even though the language of the time was latin.

I don't think you know what history is.

The history of Macedonia never ended and it belongs to ALL that live there.

It is part of the history of the land, but it is not part of the history of your people (as an ethnic group).
Marko Kraljevic and Vukasin are part of your History, as your ancestors lived there when they ruled. Roman and antic-Macedonian churches etc.. are not part of your history as your ancestors have not lived there when they were around. That's what I mean. No one is saying they weren't where you are, but you can't introduce yourself as "Macedonian, descendant of Alexander the Great". There are tons of Roman sites in Serbia and Croatia, a Roman Emperor was even from a city in Serbia, but still Serbs and Croatians don't claim they're Romans, as they (=as a tribe/people) were not around when the Romans were settling and ruling in the area.


Allow us?it is like i need a clearance to exist right?Funny thing is that you guys(members of Serbian origin) lived for 50 years in same state.State which had a constitution where clearly was stated that Yougoslavia was state among others of the Macedonian people.50 years you had the chance on putting facts straight or challenge our nation in way that you do now,similar like Greece had the same chance.But yet no one did.And now 50 years after i read this big sentences full of sympathy towards the ,, (FY) Macedonian people,, but the time has come to settle things straight.

Were you called Macedonians before these 50 years? No, for the last hundreds of years you weren't called Macedonians but Slavs. You can't just suddenly invent that you are "Macedonians, the descendants of Alexander the Great" just because you live on the land that the ancient Macedonia was on. I have no problem calling you guys Macedonians and I always do so, but you make it hard for me to call you Macedonians when you start claiming wrong things that I just can't support.

[justasoldier]

Were you called Macedonians before these 50 years? No,
Yes we were check couple of pages back there is an article in a American newspaper dating another 50 years back.

for the last hundreds of years you weren't called Macedonians but Slavs
Oh come on.IIRC we were under occupation of the Otoman empire right?And after that under Bulgarian and later under Serbian occupation.It is not like you can invent and create a nation in 50 years.But the question still stands.You or those who share you point of view that is ,,Were you called Macedonians before these 50 years,, ,had the time and means to put this historical,, injustice ,, straight.Why didn't you raised the question of non-existent Macedonian nation at that time?


You can't just suddenly invent that you are "Macedonians, the descendants of Alexander the Great"
That's a easy fix buddy.Scientists have their way on knowing who is descendants of what.But that is purely scientific debate.Not a nation denial process.But like i said i personally don't give damn about Alexander the great.He's dead and gone.Historians on the other hand can care as much as they like let them take it where they should and debate it.But there is no chance in h*ll that someone is going to dictate me on how i will call my self,considering that 3 generations before me called themselves Macedonians.


I have no problem calling you guys Macedonians and I always do so
With an FY before it right?Yes Mare you do have an problem calling us Macedonians,but you see it is your problem and your opinion and i respect it.As long as you respect my right to call myself the way i want.

[ssalb]

Must be great to be Greek, the whole state is in the verge of the financial collapse, yet your priority is fixing your neighbor's name.

[Paya]

Seventy years ago, there was no such thing as an ethnic Montenegrin. It was a regional name, much like Macedonian. Now, however, there are some 300.000 people who feel ethnically Montenegrin. I can consider them Serbs all I want (and I do), but I have to respect their rights to declare themselves whatever they want.

It was a bitter pill for me to swallow, being of Montenegrin origin myself, but what choice do I have but to accept their identity, such as it is?

Now, I understand that the images of the statue of Alexander the Great in Skopje or the new government buildings built in the ancient Hellen style, complete with Dorian collumns, are not as hilarious to Greeks as they are to me, but essentially keeping two million people hostage over it?

Two and a half thousand years ago, the Macedonian ethnicity didn't exist. It does now. It's, as they say, the reality on the ground.

[Mordoror]

I cannot answer to all the posts i want to so i will sum up all the historical facts because obvioulsy each side is playing and sticking to someancient history that has a lot to do with Mythology rather than true History

First to answer Shurik (two pages ago) i think that the use of the Virgina Sun on the first map was a mistake because the Sun was not found on the Fyrom/Macedonian side and because this symbol was never used during our past history. yes we have a sun on the yougoslavian republic flag but it is a sun not the Virgin suna which is quite different so this move was stupid and ended by pissing up the Greeks (and all began from here !)

Now let look point by point to all the claims for both sides
Did the ancient kingdom of Macedonia encompassed a part of the actual macedonian territory : yes
hence it is not reserved to the only Greeks as an historical thing
as i said before this fact (and ruins and remnants) show that the old Macedonian influence was present on the actual FYROM/Macedonia territory. That doesn't mean that actual Fyromians/Macedonians are all descent of the ancient macedonians, that doesn't mean that none have some distinct links with them

Usually when there is a cultural influence, there is settlers who marry the locals and leave a gene pool. Local populations doesn't simply vanish; They assimilate or are assimilated by the newcomers; hence some actual inhabitants of FYROM/Macedonia may have some old Macedonian genetic pool as they may have Roman, Byzantin, Frank or Turk gene pool
That's true even if they are themselves later settlers. As i said local populations does't disappear when a new wave arrive. . They are either assimilated if in lower number or assimilate in greater number
Hence if we assume that the lastest wave of settlers in Fyrom/Macedonia are from Slavic origin which is the case, that doesn't means that by wedding and inter breeding between newcomers and old resident, there is no (in the sense nil, zero, nada) remains of the Ancient Macedonians at least in a part of the population (i am here talking about the overall population, not single individuals, when you arer an indvidue and that you claim that you are a direct descent of the Mighty Alexander, it shows only one thing : you understand shvt about history and genetics move through population moves)

Now does the greeks have the right to claim that the ancient macedonian kingdom is a part of their history; Yes they can of course. Sources that shows the importance of the hellenistic kingdom of macedonia are enough to not be questionned. However, this raises another question :
was Alexander the great a Greek in the sense of Hellene ?
It is questionnable and questionned by neutral (ie non biased non Greek and not Macedonians historians) because the sources are foggy
some sources say that the ancient macedonians were a distinct branch of Hellenes but closely related
other say that they were more close to Phrygians/Thracians who were progressively hellenised mainly during Phillipe rules due to close geographical, diplomatical and commercial links with the Peloponese Greek group

These questions (like it or not) won't be solved until a pre-Philippe Macedonian Tomb is found and the remains and architecture analyzed to see what influence is the greater
What is not questionable is that at the end they were massively hellenized so a group of the larger cultural hellenic set; Hence the greeks have rightefully the right to claim that the ancient macedonians are a part of their history
where i don't agree until further proofs is when they say that they are the only one pure ancient macedonian descent. They may be descent from ancient macedonians (especially in the old kingdom of Macedonia borders) but some of them are certainly not (Cretan for example or far southern Greeks)
Hell, some of the Greek macedonians that call them descent of Alexander were settled there during the 1920s back from Anatolia

all that to show that mixing culture/ethnicity/ancestor blood leads only to approximative and one sided view of the issue and i dare to say that given the bias of both sides none of them have the right historical and scientifical approach

all that to say that the arguing about who is the true ancient macedonian descent and who has the right to keep the monopoly of this blood is beyond ridiculous
but it is a nice subject of ranting, isn't it

[G3SG1]

Must be great to be Greek, the whole state is in the verge of the financial collapse, yet your priority is fixing your neighbor's name.


It's surprising to see foreigners worry more than us about our economy. :) Btw foreign policy does not change due to economic situations. Also the Fyrom issue gets minor coverage in Greek media.

[ssalb]

It's surprising to see foreigners worry more than us about our economy. :) Btw foreign policy does not change due to economic situations. Also the Fyrom issue gets minor coverage in Greek media.

Well maybe foreigners are worried because the inability of Greece to manage its finances is effecting everyone's economy, still surprised?

[Gentius]

Is the name "Northern Macedonia" accepted among Macedonian citizens? Perhaps a referendum or is it still taboo?

[G3SG1]

Well maybe foreigners are worried because the inability of Greece to manage its finances is effecting everyone's economy, still surprised?


You are right about that. Do you agree with me on the fact that during economic troubles you still have foreign policy?

[justasoldier]

Is the name "Northern Macedonia" accepted among Macedonian citizens? Perhaps a referendum or is it still taboo?
As you can see in this thread there is a lot more than a name.It is a nation denial process.There isn't anybody stupid enough to accept something like that.As for me personally i do not accept nothing but Macedonia.If it goes to referendum then it is very very likely that it would be rejected.

[Aor]

As you can see in this thread there is a lot more than a name.It is a nation denial process.There isn't anybody stupid enough to accept something like that.As for me personally i do not accept nothing but Macedonia.If it goes to referendum then it is very very likely that it would be rejected.

yeah and funny that the intolerable, fanatical, evil Greeks suggested a compromise with a geographical term. Imagine that!

[Mordoror]

There isn't anybody stupid enough to accept something like that.

then call me stupid because i'd accept it with the following conditions : on paper under international supervision no more claims and bullying and conditions and ultimatums from Greece for any other issue
You had some good arguments here but some are actually very biased and false also from your side. Not only the greeks are guilty about a 20 years stalemate and our political clique is alsot to blame ( a pity a great man was wounded by some ****heads, a pity another great man was killed in a plane crash, all that remained for years were Sakashvili like officials)
Both sides are living in a fairy mythology that doesn't take in account the very basis of truthness but enough is enough and we should all go ahead

[justasoldier]

Well if you took some time my friend and came to stay for a year or two maybe you would see things from our perspective.



then call me stupid because i'd accept it with the following conditions : on paper under international supervision no more claims and bullying and conditions and ultimatums from Greece for any other issue
That is the exact same trap that brought us to this utterly stupid and idiot acronym that is used to call my country FYROM.Go ahead read the agreement which is BTW ,,on paper under international supervision,, where it clearly states that Greece will never object Macedonia's integrations in international organizations as long is the FYROM term used.Remember Bucharest?Remember Macedonia is prepared at any time to accept almost everything that Greece asked as long is bilateral.

You had some good arguments here but some are actually very biased and false also from your side.
Like what i.e?

Not only the greeks are guilty about a 20 years stalemate and our political clique is alsot to blame
it is some of our politicians are to be blamed,and they are.there is god knows how many public debates 2 of which where presented here(to be honest partially) and where you can see clearly that there are some people who criticize even more than someone would of expect for an important issue like this but yet they are free to do so.Name similar example on the other side.

Edit:i missed part of your point but after reading your post twice let me put it this way.Much of our politicians are similar or worse than those who were lying to the Greek people and the rest of the world about the debt.But yet we had a chance at least partially to put a end to such behavior by joining NATO at least or EU.It would for example put an end to the ethnic tensions and cheap politics.EU and NATO membership would of brought obligations to the politicians,ones that could move us from the stalemate.But there is always Greece to block every possible way they can.Now call me biased but that is the sole truth.Like i said if you were here you would know it.

Both sides are living in a fairy mythology that doesn't take in account the very basis of truthness but enough is enough and we should all go ahead
My friend just one example.As for the last 6-7 years the Greek military is using our territory as a main supply route for their KFOR contingent.During that time every single convoy didn't had any problem at all and was provided with all needed assistance by our army.On the other hand 2 of our officers were on a NATO exercise in France and after the Greek officers insisted the host asked from them to remove their patches which stated Macedonia because the Greeks were taking it as a provocation.And there is more and more of these examples.


Greeks suggested a compromise with a geographical term
Now of course they did propose.But not a compromise.Just a list of wishes and a agenda of pushing them by force and blackmails(excuse my expression but couldn't find a more suitable term).Remember Bucharest summit?It was officially never a veto yet it was a holiday in Athens when your PM got back as a hero who issued a veto.It pretty much applies on the ,,suggested compromise with a geographical term,,.The Serbian people have a good saying ,,Kad se jednom covek izgori onda i u matenicu duva,, .(When a man burns, then he's even blowing in a cup of yogurt)

[G3SG1]

The Serbian people have a good saying ,,Kad se jednom covek izgori onda i u matenicu duva,, .(When a man burns, then he's even blowing in a cup of yogurt)


We have another good saying: The most sure enemy is the one who was benefited from you'

Think of Tetovo 2001 when Greece supported you with military material to deal with the Albanians and you will get it.

[Mordoror]

That is the exact same trap that brought us to this utterly stupid and idiot acronym that is used to call my country FYROM.Go ahead read the agreement which is BTW ,,on paper under international supervision,, where it clearly states that Greece will never object Macedonia's integrations in international organizations as long is the FYROM term used.Remember Bucharest?Remember Macedonia is prepared at any time to accept almost everything that Greece asked as long is bilateral.i understand that very well and as i stated in another thread about that issue on this forum, i don't blame especially our side. I agree that ALSO the Greek stance and behaviour was misleading to say the least. Disdain and distrust have gone too far for both sides and have festered for years and will still fester That's why some true guarantee are needed. UN was unwilling to give some. EU maybe will do (but this is only conjecture from my side)


it is some of our politicians are to be blamed,and they are.there is god knows how many public debates 2 of which where presented here(to be honest partially) and where you can see clearly that there are some people who criticize even more than someone would of expect for an important issue like this but yet they are free to do so.Name similar example on the other side.while i agree that actually a public debate occurs (somewhat weak in my eyes but nevertheless existing) i blame not the actual politicians especially, rathrt the former ones who put us also in that mess mainly for their own agenda (was thinking about that bearded moron who is now bulgarian...what a f** thug, sorry but given what he has done to the country not only on that issue but also on others issues, i cannot stand him....and i know close people who believed in him....)


My friend just one example.As for the last 6-7 years the Greek military is using our territory as a main supply route for their KFOR contingent.During that time every single convoy didn't had any problem at all and was provided with all needed assistance by our army.On the other hand 2 of our officers were on a NATO exercise in France and after the Greek officers insisted the host asked from them to remove their patches which stated Macedonia because the Greeks were taking it as a provocation.And there is more and more of these examples.funny you remind me this history. i was there and there is a good chance that i met the two guys who were making a course at the EAI (one of them being my cousin)
as for the provocation things this example is one good example of the stupidity we reached on that issue
but to be balanced you should agree that provocations occured from our side too
this is the Balkans, people love to do chestbeating and given the level of distrust reached the event always reaches an unbearable level (hell i even heard that at one moment Greeks soldiers refused to buy local food for fear of being poisoned .....you see rumors, distrust, that may reach hate what i hope nobody wants, at least i don't want more hate in the area)


Now of course they did propose.sorry to answer to what you wrotte for AoR
but this proposal is a ping pong proposal
it was proposed years ago by the US envoy and almost accepted also by our politicians but then removed. Actually it is proposed by the greeks yet nothing guarantee that the proposal will stay long time
Everybody is keeping his stance in fact mainly for fear of losing some elections
Meantime it is average Joe that is f*** up
anyway basically just a question : you said that you do not want to accept the term North Macedonia
is it because the proposal is greek actually ?
would have you accepted it when it was a proposal from our side ?

for me it is a solution, not perfect because it will pisses of a lot of people, but at least it will normalize our bilateral relationship with Greece and i think that it will change nothing with all the other countries with which we had already relationship under the name Macedonia
so what's the problem ?

[Mordoror]

Think of Tetovo 2001 when Greece supported you with military material to deal with the Albanians and you will get it.

Oh not that **** again
don't think we are so naive
it was your interest to support us, you didn't support us just to be kind
unstable situation at your border with a huge albanian minority in Epire was a grim picture and a potential threat to your country stability (after all the Tetovo unrest was a domino effect of the Balkan wars and you never know when a domino effect will stop)
So please spare me that history
Nations are never kind freely .... when they give something it is because they see also and mainly their own interests

this is called realpolitik

[justasoldier]

Think of Tetovo 2001 when€ Greece supported you with military material to deal with the Albanians and you will get it.
FFS would you quit it already?The,, help,, consisted of 10 APC,5 Jeeps and 2 huey both of which had no technical documentation.It played no role whatsoever in that war other than auxiliary transportation and yet your making it up like it was crucial.On the other hand what we called help was the donation by Germany 150 wheeled APC's 70 BTR 70's more than 300 jeeps, 40 trucks 20 + ambulances.Then there is the US donations in humvies and other vehicles,artillery guns and ammo,not to forget Turkey which is helping in building our army with brand new equipment since the beginning.

[G3SG1]

Oh not that **** again
don't think we are so naive
it was your interest to support us, you didn't support us just to be kind
unstable situation at your border with a huge albanian minority in Epire was a grim picture and a potential threat to your country stability (after all the Tetovo unrest was a domino effect of the Balkan wars and you never know when a domino effect will stop)
So please spare me that history


Nations are never kind freely .... when they give something it is because they see also and mainly their own interests

this is called realpolitik


Nice definition of realpolitik.

But try to analyze our actions and your actions. You were in troubles in 2001 and we helped you ok for our interests. Now we are in economic troubles and your politicians make statements that now it's the time to press Greece to ''capitulate'' because they are on trouble.

[G3SG1]

FFS would you quit it already?The,, help,, consisted of 10 APC,5 Jeeps and 2 huey both of which had no technical documentation.It played no role whatsoever in that war other than auxiliary transportation and yet your making it up like it was crucial.On the other hand what we called help was the donation by Germany 150 wheeled APC's 70 BTR 70's more than 300 jeeps, 40 trucks 20 + ambulances.Then there is the US donations in humvies and other vehicles,artillery guns and ammo,not to forget Turkey which is helping in building our army with brand new equipment since the beginning.


Did other nations gave ANY military material during Tetovo?

[G3SG1]

It played no role whatsoever in that war other than auxiliary transportation and yet your making it up like it was crucial..


No role eh?

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5916/4k7fagleonidasskopje2mj1.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4932/4k7fagleonidasskopje1rz4.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9632/610xrg8.jpg

[justasoldier]

i understand that very well and as i stated in another thread about that issue on this forum, i don't blame especially our side. I agree that ALSO the Greek stance and behaviour was misleading to say the least. Disdain and distrust have gone too far for both sides and have festered for years and will still fester That's why some true guarantee are needed. UN was unwilling to give some. EU maybe will do (but this is only conjecture from my side)
You do understand that this dispute is so complicated that raises issues for which no one is able to guarantee what consequences might have further on.


while i agree that actually a public debate occurs (somewhat weak in my eyes but nevertheless existing)
Oh you have no idea on how wrong you are.

rathrt the former ones who put us also in that mess mainly for their own agenda (was thinking about that bearded moron who is now bulgarian...what a f** thug, sorry but given what he has done to the country not only on that issue but also on others issues, i cannot stand him....and i know close people who believed in him....)
And the other bearded one same idiot like the one you mentioned it.



but to be balanced you should agree that provocations occured from our side too
I can personally guarantee you that never a single member of the Greek military experienced a provocation whatsoever by the military or police personnel of Macedonia.Never.



this is the Balkans, people love to do chestbeating and given the level of distrust reached the event always reaches an unbearable level (hell i even heard that at one moment Greeks soldiers refused to buy local food for fear of being poisoned .....you see rumors, distrust, that may reach hate what i hope nobody wants, at least i don't want more hate in the area)
Balkans is the ultimate *****ole just because of disputes similar to this.Political/historical pissing contests used to cover internal problems and criminal and thus losing the power.



anyway basically just a question : you said that you do not want to accept the term North Macedonia
is it because the proposal is greek actually ? I won't accepted it because of the way it is proposed to be precise the take it or leave it manner .Actually like i said before it is not a proposal but a list of demands.The last one contained demands that the graph which determines the people to be left empty (FFS like we don't exist)or to be called citizens of N.MAcedonia??Huh?????
Further more it is always the Greek ,,us we us we,, ,, we will alow,, we will veto,, if we allow,,stance towards every move by our side.It is like they have a red line and we're the whore opened for business and negotiations.


would have you accepted it when it was a proposal from our side ?
From our side we were prepared to accept almost every demand form Greece even those ultimately stupid ones as long is stays in bilateral relations i.e for the rest of the world Republic of Macedonia as for Greece republic of Venus or whatever they choose.But then it came the erga omnes demand,then the definition on language then the nationality,not to use his not to use that......And to answer your question no i would not accept it.


for me it is a solution, not perfect because it will pisses of a lot of people, but at least it will normalize our bilateral relationship with Greece and i think that it will change nothing with all the other countries with which we had already relationship under the name Macedonia
so what's the problem ?
Why not Northern Republic of Macedonia?

[justasoldier]

No role eh?



First picture a reservists securing a convoy behind main positions nowhere near Tetovo but Kumanovo region.Same thing in the second picture.The third one is not even made during the war but on a exercise after the war.At present both of the Huyes are grounded due to lack of technical documentation needed for renewing the their flying recourses.So quit it already.

[G3SG1]

First picture a reservists securing a convoy behind main positions nowhere near Tetovo but Kumanovo region.Same thing in the second picture.The third one is not even made during the war but on a exercise after the war.Today both of the Hues are grounded due to lack of technical documentation needed for renewing the their flying recourses.So quit it already.

i guess the soldiers would prefer to be on foot and not having an APC.

Btw do you know that when you receive a donation and you are the owner of a subject YOU have the obligation to support it ( with mother company Bell?)

[G3SG1]

Why not Northern Republic of Macedonia?

Why not Achilleada or Heracleada? After all Alexander was claiming ancestry by Achilles and Hercules.

Wait. Achilles and Hercules were ....Greeks?:)

[justasoldier]

i guess the soldiers would prefer to be on foot and not having an APC.
I presume your sole link to the army/warfare is bunch of photos at home?Read what i wrote they had nowhere near the ,,crucial,, role like you tried to present it.Actually IIRC they were nowhere near Tetovo at the time of the battle.


Btw do you know that when you receive a donation and you are the owner of a subject YOU have the obligation to support it ( with mother company Bell?)
May i remind you that you read carefully what i wrote.Greece didn't provide any technical documentation whatsoever that are crucial for the mother company to provide any support.Or to put it in simple no papers no support.

[G3SG1]

I presume your sole link to the army/warfare is bunch of photos at home?Read what i wrote they had nowhere near the ,,crucial,, role like you tried to present it.Actually IIRC they were nowhere near Tetovo at the time of the battle.


May i remind you that you read carefully what i wrote.Greece didn't provide any technical documentation whatsoever that are crucial for the mother company to provide any support.Or to put it in simple no papers no support.


Everyone with a military service will tell you that every chopper is delivered with it's service book and other documentation. Now if you continue to insist that we gave you only the chopper....

BTW what is your opinion about Heracleada and Achilleada?

[justasoldier]

Everyone with a military service will tell you that every chopper is delivered with it's service book and other documentation.
Ah well it is me that brought the issue to light right?Those 2 helos were delivered without tech documentation needed for further support.That is why they are grounded.You think that they wouldn't be used if it was opposite case in a situation where there are no other similar means for the tasks they were best suited for?

http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/44244/2211650390104327242S600x600Q85.jpg
Credits goes to Vladimir, MAF

[G3SG1]

Ah well it is me that brought the issue to light right?Those 2 helos were delivered without tech documentation needed for further support.That is why they are grounded.You think that they wouldn't be used if it was opposite case in a situation where there are no other similar means for the tasks they were best suited for?

http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/44244/2211650390104327242S600x600Q85.jpg
Credits goes to Vladimir, MAF


this is 321
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Macedonia_FYR/West/Skopje/Skopje_-_Petrovec/photo225109.htm



But i cant understand HOW these choppers were flying normally for some years without continuous service.

[Homer]

Yes we were check couple of pages back there is an article in a American newspaper dating another 50 years back.

Nope, actually there never was any claims of a Macedonian ethnicity or language or nation before 1945. Sorry, but that's the cold hard truth.

What you guys claim to prove your existence before 1945, is Buglarian history.
Bulgarians who wanted the whole region of Macedonia for their country.

You can deny this as well if you want, but you are only humiliating your self even further.

People should also be made aware of all the other claims coming from FYROM, which aren't just about Greece and it's history & heritage.
Only then I think people will really get a grasp of how calm and restrained we have remained for 19 years in dealing with the bs to our north.




That's a easy fix buddy.Scientists have their way on knowing who is descendants of what.But that is purely scientific debate.Not a nation denial process.But like i said i personally don't give damn about Alexander the great.He's dead and gone.Historians on the other hand can care as much as they like let them take it where they should and debate it.But there is no chance in h*ll that someone is going to dictate me on how i will call my self,considering that 3 generations before me called themselves Macedonians.

So you want to call your self simply Macedonian because part of the territory of what is your country today was once part of the Ancient Greek kingdom of Macedonia, or because you think you are a descendant of those people?
Simple question and I'd like an answer to it.



With an FY before it right?Yes Mare you do have an problem calling us Macedonians,but you see it is your problem and your opinion and i respect it.As long as you respect my right to call myself the way i want.At the end of the day mate, the problem isn't what you call your selves, it's what you claim to be and what you claim is yours.
You might not care about Alexander the Great, but your country does. It is renaming airports and highways after him and his father Philip, in some attempt to reinforce some (false)national identity for your country.

If in 1991/2, when your country emerged out of Yugoslavia, you simply called your selves Macedonians, because of the geography of were you live, then we wouldn't be sitting here nearly two decades later arguing about what you are. If you hadn't made claims against Greece and it's people, there wouldn't be a problem.


Oh come on.IIRC we were under occupation of the Otoman empire right?And after that under Bulgarian and later under Serbian occupation.It is not like you can invent and create a nation in 50 years.But the question still stands.You or those who share you point of view that is ,,Were you called Macedonians before these 50 years,, ,had the time and means to put this historical,, injustice ,, straight.Why didn't you raised the question of non-existent Macedonian nation at that time?Because there was no claims of a "Macedonian ethnicity or nation" before 50 years ago. It was Bulgarian nationalists, there was nothing to "set right".

[iloxos]

These questions (like it or not) won't be solved until a pre-Philippe Macedonian Tomb is found and the remains and architecture analyzed to see what influence is the greater
Hell, some of the Greek macedonians that call them descent of Alexander were settled there during the 1920s back from Anatolia

all that to say that the arguing about who is the true ancient macedonian descent and who has the right to keep the monopoly of this blood is beyond ridiculous
but it is a nice subject of ranting, isn't it

In the Persian wars – that’s 480bc Alexander the A’ (great grandfather of Alexander the Great) arrived at the Greek camp secretly and asked to speak to the Lakedemonians (Spartans). After showing their common Dorian ancestry he gave info of all the Persian plans. Macedonians knew that they were Dorian and had the facts to prove it to the most xenophobic tribe of ancient Greece.
That more that enough to me and surely a biggest historical fact that the common language, religion, alphabet, culture and participation to the Pan-Hellenic Olympic Games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece


Macedonian Greeks of today with an ancestry from Minor Asia are Pontics or Ionian Greeks (like me) and they neved but never hide it. The ones that live today in the areas of Florina or Edessa (former Bulgarian capitals and citadels) where East Rumelian Greeks expeled from their lands after the St. Stefan Greak Bulgaria that moved there in 1878-1885. After Second Balkan War all Bulgarians that survived the war and the harsh reprical of the greek army (after the commita crimes and genoside earlier) were expeled back to Bulgaria.


The good in being ancient nation is that we have historical data about eveyone and eveything.Read some thing here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Rumelia

There are also some maps there prepared from neutral English, German and French before St. Stefans treaty. Opppsssss there is no "macedonian" nation anywhere... hahahahahaha


Well maybe foreigners are worried because the inability of Greece to manage its finances is effecting everyone's economy, still surprised?

We have 180 years of modern history and they were all heavily in dept.
Last time I ve checked rest of the word is still there.

Stop trolling please.


Oh not that **** again
don't think we are so naive
it was your interest to support us, you didn't support us just to be kind
unstable situation at your border with a huge albanian minority in Epire was a grim picture and a potential threat to your country stability (after all the Tetovo unrest was a domino effect of the Balkan wars and you never know when a domino effect will stop)So please spare me that historyNations are never kind freely .... when they give something it is because they see also and mainly their own intereststhis is called realpolitik

Another BS!!!
Now we ve learned that there is a HUGE Albanian minority in Epirus – when the Albanians them selves claim the Tsamouria area after ALL their population was expelled after the collaboration with the Italians in WW2…
Secondly there would be a “stability” problem… Domino effect my ass… some forget that Greece has an army to level all states in a week up to river Danube and return in time to continue their Mykonos vacations…

Finally Greeks decided then to help Fyromians against the Albanian minority for only one reason and one reason only: we would have to pay triple the annual help after there would be two or three states there plus the huge numbers of refugees arriving in greek borders.



FFS would you quit it already?The,, help,, consisted of 10 APC,5 Jeeps and 2 huey both of which had no technical documentation.It played no role whatsoever in that war other than auxiliary transportation and yet your making it up like it was crucial.On the other hand what we called help was the donation by Germany 150 wheeled APC's 70 BTR 70's more than 300 jeeps, 40 trucks 20 + ambulances.Then there is the US donations in humvies and other vehicles,artillery guns and ammo,not to forget Turkey which is helping in building our army with brand new equipment since the beginning.

Firstly we never send anything without documentation. Secondly if there were none you could take documents from Austria and USA in seconds. Thirdly we ve send more than enough to fight back 2000 guerrillas. We didn’t knew at that time that you wished for an armoured corps to fight back ex-goat herders or else we would have the whole A’Corps for help plus Chuck Norris!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahaha



But i cant understand HOW these choppers were flying normally for some years without continuous service.

Magic maybe?

[justasoldier]

But i cant understand HOW these choppers were flying normally for some years without continuous service.
Hey where the the Wiki link disappeared? :) :) :)
You do realize you're off topic right?Anyway like i said both of the helis are grounded.If you check the date of the picture on the right side of the panel it says Date Taken: 2005-06-10 that it pretty much 5 years right?
As for how they flew i can't say that i find it strange for you failing to understand.But i'll give you a hint.Check on the Ministry of interior helicopter fleet and the types of aircraft used.Maybe but just maybe you'll understand.And as far is this matter of ,,crucial and decisive help ,, i'm done.Anybody with enough knowledge on the matter and with the needed knowledge on what to look for can check my claims.Done with the offtopic my apologies for it.

Oh email the author of pic.He is an expert on Balkan airforces,he had numerous articles published in foreign magazines.Those who reed will know.I am sure he'll help you on the matter.


Nope, actually there never was any claims of a Macedonian ethnicity or language or nation before 1945. Sorry, but that's the cold hard truth.
Says who?You?Look pal if it is you or your version of history there wasn't nor is Macedonian ethnicity(or even if it does it is Greek one) nor language,not now,not never and that is the core of the problem, and that is why it'll never be solved.Using it for cheap political bargaining is a good trick to back corruption and a lot of money going AWOL here in Macedonia and especially there in Greece.Now you'll probably bring authors claiming otherwise,i can prove you wrong by bringing some authors up,but what is certainly true is that people who will read all that,are perfectly aware on how Balkan historical disputes are,and how they usually end.I believe there is a expression here that describes it and it goes like Balkan bull****.And exactly that it is.

What you guys claim to prove your existence before 1945, is Buglarian history.
Bulgarians who wanted the whole region of Macedonia for their country.
Like a said.Everybody,especially here on Balkans,has his own version of history.Big problem.If you take it as a mean to settle differences than my friend it will be best for the world to nuke this f'in place.

You can deny this as well if you want, but you are only humiliating your self even further.
In front of whom?Are you the ultimate human who found a universal way of being right every time he states a sentence?I simply answered your claims.It's not like anybody is interested that much.You do know of course that majority of the world find this whole mess rather stupid.Humiliation both yours and ours,begun the first time you opened this issue.If you asked me i would brake the negotiations.


People should also be made aware of all the other claims coming from FYROM, which aren't just about Greece and it's history & heritage.
Ah the evil FYROM ians.They will drink your blood and steal your heritage.

Only then I think people will really get a grasp of how calm and restrained we have remained for 19 years in dealing with the bs to our north.
Of course they will.

So you want to call your self simply Macedonian because part of the territory of what is your country today was once part of the Ancient Greek kingdom of Macedonia, or because you think you are a descendant of those people?
Simple question and I'd like an answer to it.
Sure thing.I call myself Macedonian because 3 generations of my ancestors call themselves Macedonians.Now if you're trying to call them cheaters or thieves you'll have to do it in person like a man :) :) ,because i'm proud on my grand parents and their grand parents.Hope it answers your question.


At the end of the day mate, the problem isn't what you call your selves, it's what you claim to be and what you claim is yours.
You might not care about Alexander the Great, but your country does. It is renaming airports and highways after him and his father Philip, in some attempt to reinforce some (false)national identity for your country.
How many people who live in Macedonia or however you wish to call my country did you met?How do you know what we are claiming?Are you able to make a difference between history and part of history?

If in 1991/2, when your country emerged out of Yugoslavia, you simply called your selves Macedonians, because of the geography of were you live, then we wouldn't be sitting here nearly two decades later arguing about what you are. If you hadn't made claims against Greece and it's people, there wouldn't be a problem.
It is not correct.After Greece insisted Macedonia changed her constitution and added an article where it is clearly written that Republic of Macedonia has no territorial or any other claims whatsoever towards her neighbors.The problem is that if it wasn't for the 20 years of dispute there would never been another way on hiding 300 bil debt or millions of stolen money during the transition here.



Finally Greeks decided then to help Fyromians against the Albanian minority for only one reason and one reason only: we would have to pay triple the annual help after there would be two or three states there plus the huge numbers of refugees arriving in greek borders.
Oh of course you did helped the Fyromians.If it wasn't for the 10 APC's and 5 jeeps,and i mean every single one of them it would meant a disaster for the war effort.
FFS do i have to count how many times you said it yourself on how you can wait to see ,,FYROM,, disintegrate thanks to the Albanians?And now you helped us of course.

A note:To those other who do understand the matter of 2001 conflict in R.Macedonia,i hope you understand that i am grateful to whoever helped even with a single bullet.Greece included.It is the way of how certain members her exaggerate on the real importance and role of the aid that i object.


Firstly we never send anything without documentation. Secondly if there were none you could take documents from Austria and USA in seconds. Thirdly we ve send more than enough to fight back 2000 guerrillas. We didn’t knew at that time that you wished for an armoured corps to fight back ex-goat herders or else we would have the whole A’Corps for help plus Chuck Norris!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahaha
Ah the hahahahha argument.I did presumed that your age is far from suitable for a decent conversation and you just proved me right.However i wrote to Aor on the matter and there is a way to check what you've send and what not.Al though your'e both off topic.


Magic maybe?
Yes,David Copperfield.He was donated with the helicopters as a special offer to a friendly nation.

[iloxos]

Sure thing.I call my self Macedonian because 3 generations of my ancestors call themselves Macedonians.Now if you're trying to call them cheaters or thieves you'll have to do it in person like a man,because i'm proud on my grand parents and their grand parents.Hope it answers your question.

I have 1,000 generations of ancestors claiming Macedonian ancestry. Your ancestors weren’t cheaters. They just believed Titos BS and being a minority in a foreign cold-war state they had to follow. Same as the pomak and roma populations in Greece. 3 generations doesn't make a nation. just a family and a history of 60 years.


The problem is that if it wasn't for the 20 years of dispute there would never been another way on hiding 300 bil debt or millions of stolen money during the transition here.

A loan from another nation is theft? Where did you learned your economics? In Skopye Grand University? Maybe you should teach the Greek people how to excel after your glorious example of prosperity....


FFS do i have to count how many times you said it yourself on how you can wait to see ,,FYROM,, disintegrate thanks to the Albanians?And now you helped us of course.

Realpolitiks. You survive as a state a long as we want. Visit the Skopye Grand University for lessons in diplomacy and politics.



A note:To those other who do understand the matter of 2001 conflict in R.Macedonia,i hope you understand that i am grateful to whoever helped even with a single bullet.Greece included.It is the way of how certain members her exaggerate on the real importance and role of the aid that i object.

Thanks.


Ah the hahahahha argument.I did presumed that you age is far from suitable for a decent conversation and you just proved me right.

In the internet world whenever someone has no real facts to support a fisherman's story he ALWAYS claims the other participant is of small age, living in park trailers or just a fool…


Yes,David Copperfield.It was donated with the helicopters as a special offer to a friendly nation.

With 16,000 Iroquois around the world used from 100 countries you still haven’t got manuals from anyone alse for almost 9 years? And its our fault?????

[themacedonian]

Interesting read even though I don't agree with some points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Federation#Balkan_Socialist_Federation

The Communist Party of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece) (KKE) delegate Nikolaos Sargologos (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nikolaos_Sargologos&action=edit&redlink=1) signed the motion without central authorisation; instead of returning to Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens), he emigrated to the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). The KKE political organ and newspaper, Rizospastis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizospastis), was against the motion because it saw it as good for BCP in Bulgaria but disastrous for the KKE in Greece. The KKE found the BCF's position on Macedonia difficult but briefly went along with it. In June 1924, at its 5th meeting, it recognised "the Macedonian people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Macedonians)" and in December 1924, it endorsed the motion for "a united and independent Macedonia and a united and independent Thrace" with the perspective of entering into a union within a Balkan federation "against the national and social yoke of the Greek and Bulgarian bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism)". However, in 1928 it suffered a crushing defeat at the Greek elections, especially in Greek Macedonia. By 1927, dissentions within the KKE made the motion untenable and in March, the KKE conference watered it down, calling for autodetermination of the Macedonians until they join a "Balkan Soviet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_%28council%29) Socialist Federation" and only for "a section of Macedonia (Florina area) inhabited by Slavomacedonians[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Federation#cite_note-6)" (Holevas 1992). By 1935, it simply called for "equal rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equality) to all" due to the "change of the national composition of the Greek part of Macedonia" and hence because "the Leninist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism)-Stalinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism) principle of self-determination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination) demands the substitution of the old slogan". The Communist Party of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Communists_of_Yugoslavia) (YCP) had its own problems and dissentions; fears of Serbianisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbianisation) of the party and of the Vardar Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina), whose inhabitants felt closer (though not necessarily identified) to Bulgaria than the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia). The YCP followed the KKE example in 1936.

The Macedonian question is not new.

One will find that in the early 20th century people were talking about real issues and not about Alexander and Phillip.

The Macedonians were used by the communist to further their aims and then stabbed in the back in 1947-8. As a result many people crossed over into the Republic. Even the current Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski grandmother as we all know. His grandfather was as pointed out before Nicholas Grouios.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski

Gruevski has family roots in Greek Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonia) ("Aegean Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Macedonia)"). His paternal grandparents stem from Achlada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achlada) (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αχλάδα; Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language): Крушоради, "Krušoradi"),[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski#cite_note-dnevnik.com.mk-5) a village in the Meliti municipality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meliti_municipality) of the Florina Prefecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina_Prefecture), Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), where his family had the greek surname Grouios ("Γρούϊος").[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski#cite_note-dnevnik.com.mk-5) His grandfather, Nicholas Grouios, joined the Greek Army during the Second World War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War) and fought in the Greco-Italian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War) where he lost lis life. Some years later, during the Greek Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War) his grandmother emigrated to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Macedonia) where she gained full citizenship.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski#cite_note-6)

Mr Nicholas Grouios died in defence of Greece against Italy. Did he think or argued about Alexander and Philip or he fought fascism.

[justasoldier]

I have 1,000 generations of ancestors claiming Macedonian ancestry.
Are you aware on what you just wrote?

They just believed Titos BS and being a minority in a foreign cold-war state they had to follow. Same as the pomak and roma populations in Greece.
Tito wasn't even born when my grand grand father called himself Macedonian.

A loan from another nation is theft? Where did you learned your economics? In Skopye Grand University? Maybe you should teach the Greek people how to excel after your glorious example of prosperity....
FFs,can you read english?Read what i wrote,, millions of dollars stolen here,, in Macedonia.Oh and mind your language please.


You survive as a state a long as we want.
It doesn't take much for you to reveal your true feelings isn't it?We've survived worst.We'll survive again.

or just a fool
Do you really want to take it to the mods?

With 16,000 Iroquois around the world used from 100 countries you still haven’t got manuals from anyone alse for almost 9 years? And its our fault?????
You just don't understand on how things work do you?Do a research and like i said the subject of the greek donation is way off this thread's subject.Open a new thread maybe someone will help you on the matter.Due to lack of documentation provided those helis are grounded.Period.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

At the end of the day mate, the problem isn't what you call your selves, it's what you claim to be and what you claim is yours.
You might not care about Alexander the Great, but your country does. It is renaming airports and highways after him and his father Philip, in some attempt to reinforce some (false)national identity for your country.

If in 1991/2, when your country emerged out of Yugoslavia, you simply called your selves Macedonians, because of the geography of were you live, then we wouldn't be sitting here nearly two decades later arguing about what you are. If you hadn't made claims against Greece and it's people, there wouldn't be a problem.

Thats exactly what the problem is. FYROM claims Greek Soil and the second Greek City Thessaloniki.
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5608/61851030.jpg
In this photo you can see the Prime Minister of FYROM Nikola Grouefski lying flowers in a monument with a map of "Great Macedonia" including the Greek part of Macedonia and the Greek City of Thessaloniki.
As you can see we are not talking about nationaists teenagers but the Prime Minister it self!


Because there was no claims of a "Macedonian ethnicity or nation" before 50 years ago. It was Bulgarian nationalists, there was nothing to "set right".

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6149/bulgarian125ip9.jpg
In this photo the people of FYROM are welcoming the Nazi troops. As you can see they hold a banner with the "great Macedonia" but at the same time they call them selfs "Bulgarians" the banner at the left writes in bulgarian language "One Nation, One King, One Kingdom"

[themacedonian]

You have no idea how these people were misused by everyone who got there.

I have one grandfather (dads father) was Serbian soldier up to 1941, then Bulgarian soldier up to 1943-44 then a soldier with the communist forces. He called the Bulgarian army peasant army and the Serbian a professional army.

Another (mothers) was communist partizan (under serbian commander) from 1942-45 and his brother was bulgarian soldier 1941-44. My grandmother used to laugh at him as he used to sing a song when he was young "our bulgaria declared a war ..." then the bulgarians came to the village and shot few peasants to announce their "liberation from the serbs".

In 1941 during our small and over rated action in Prilep the partizans shot and killed the "bulgarians" in front of the police station. Those "bulgarians" were just others recruited into the army from Bitola (Monastiri). Brothers killing brothers.

[G3SG1]

.Now if you're trying to call them cheaters or thieves you'll have to do it in person like a man,


I think i found the right PM for you, Randy Savage

117829

[Satorius]

I have 1,000 generations of ancestors claiming Macedonian ancestry. Your ancestors weren’t cheaters. They just believed Titos BS and being a minority in a foreign cold-war state they had to follow. Same as the pomak and roma populations in Greece. 3 generations doesn't make a nation. just a family and a history of 60 years.

You see it does not matter how long one or other nation exists. All of them have equal rights. This mentally handicapped logic "we have longer history and thus we are superior" does not make more sense than ***** measurement and does not give you any previleges. Modern Greek finding faults with the name of a neighbouring country is hardly understandable for me and I guess for other foreigners. Ethnically modern Greeks are likely to have as much to do with antique Greeks as modern Macedonians with antique ones.





Realpolitiks. You survive as a state a long as we want. Visit the Skopye Grand University for lessons in diplomacy and politics.

Judging by what you write here you does not want or have ever wanted the formation or survival of Macedonia but Macedonia exists and will be existing so just put up with it.

[Gentius]

Ah Balkan argueing, it will never get boring.

[G3SG1]

You see it does not matter how long one or other nation exists. All of them have equal rights. This mentally handicapped logic "we have longer history and thus we are superior" does not make more sense than ***** measurement and does not give you any previleges. Modern Greek finding faults with the name of a neighbouring country is hardly understandable for me and I guess for other foreigners. Ethnically modern Greeks are likely to have as much to do with antique Greeks as modern Macedonians with antique ones.
.


We didn't underestimated any civilization. We deny that the Fyromians have anything to do with ancient Macedonians. Check the video i posted of their first president and ex PM.
The Fyromians deny that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The name of the game here is territorial demands, communist leftover propaganda via Fyrom education and politicians. . If you want to see this us a ***** contest do it ,but check all the facts of this dispute. We don't want to deprive any new nation or country from progress and prosperity ( check our investments there) but as you can see this can't be done with a way that is damaging to our national interests and spit on the graves of Macedonians who were sacrificed over the centuries for Greece.

No sir we won't give to some ex communist STILL brainwashed people the same privilege, to be called Macedonians.

Btw i always admired Americans about their efforts to expose PHONY seals or other ''veterans'' because they were not there and they didn't give their blood. Same here but in country level.

[justasoldier]

No sir we won't give to some ex communist STILL brainwashed people the same privilege, to be called Macedonians.

Btw i always admired Americans about their efforts to expose PHONY seals or other ''veterans'' because they were not there and they didn't give their blood. Same here but in country level.
There is a lot of potential in you.

[iloxos]

Are you aware on what you just wrote?

Yep. That’s the difference between us and that why we value history more that our (and your) lives.


Tito wasn't even born when my grand grand father called himself Macedonian.

Was he greek? Καλησπέρα φίλε μου!


It doesn't take much for you to reveal your true feelings isn't it?We've survived worst.We'll survive again.

What worst? In 60 years except from some Albanians none has harmed your people…


Do you really want to take it to the mods?

I have no intention to insult you or anyone else. You started with the age comments. As you have seen even if are trying to convice us here that the sun is green no greek insulted you.


Due to lack of documentation provided those helis are grounded.Period.

The are manuals in e-bay for 4$ each… Maybe you have no pilots.


You see it does not matter how long one or other nation exists. All of them have equal rights. This mentally handicapped logic "we have longer history and thus we are superior" does not make more sense than ***** measurement and does not give you any previleges. Modern Greek finding faults with the name of a neighbouring country is hardly understandable for me and I guess for other foreigners. Ethnically modern Greeks are likely to have as much to do with antique Greeks as modern Macedonians with antique ones.

First of all I never wanted anything else that equal rights for my neighbours. Neither have I found my self superior. We are all humans that live 100kms away.

We have 2000 years of written data from Europeans, Persians and Arabs that we are the sole descendants of ancient Macedonians.

If that’s not understandable from you its not our fault. Maybe you could start reading history.


Judging by what you write here you does not want or have ever wanted the formation or survival of Macedonia but Macedonia exists and will be existing so just put up with it.

We don’t want a Macedonia state. We want a North or Slav Macedonia State. Nothing else.

[G3SG1]

There is a lot of potential in you.

I usually receive such comments from ladies but thanks.:)

[G3SG1]

. We want a North or Slav Macedonia State. Nothing else.

WannabeMacedonians?



We are all humans .

We are. Alexander was a bit superhuman.

[ABN MP]

[QUOTE=iloxos;4875130]





The are manuals in e-bay for 4$ each… Maybe you have no pilots. {Quote}


I am pretty sure they have pilots. They are constantly flying their Mi-24, Mi-17, and the Police Bells.

[iloxos]

Police Bell? is the same model as AB-209?

[Paya]

some forget that Greece has an army to level all states in a week up to river Danube and return in time to continue their Mykonos vacations…
You sure about that, champ?

[ABN MP]

Police Bell? is the same model as AB-209?

Here is the page that I looked it up on. I have seen the AB-212 flying on numerous occasions. Once you know that sound (Huey) you can hear it for a distance. I have seen this one near the airport and flying over the city.

Sorry about the smiley. Someone must have cached it in the url.

www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/fyrm/pol/mac-police.htm (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/fyrm/pol/mac-police.htm)

[iloxos]

You sure about that, champ?

My Serb brother who is going to stop us? In the case that we weren't close friends and had to attack you i must say that you don't have the same army as 1999.


Here is the page that I looked it up on. I have seen the AB-212 flying on numerous occasions. Once you know that sound (Huey) you can hear it for a distance. I have seen this one near the airport and flying over the city.
www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/fyrm/pol/mac-police.htm (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/fyrm/pol/mac-police.htm)

So the police flies with Bells but the "airforce" can't fly UH-1s due to lack of field manuals....

Thanks mate.

[ABN MP]

No problem.

[justasoldier]

So the police flies with Bells but the "airforce" can't fly UH-1s due to lack of field manuals....

No, but your urge for trolling is too strong for you to understand plain simple English.Of course it is not worthy explaining it to you on the difference between technical documentation and field manuals.Now not to interfere in the chest thumping convention,carry on.


Originally Posted by iloxos
some forget that Greece has an army to level all states in a week up to river Danube and return in time to continue their Mykonos vacations…

:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:

[Paya]

My Serb brother who is going to stop us? In the case that we weren't close friends and had to attack you i must say that you don't have the same army as 1999.
You severely underestimate several factors: the willingnes of people (any people) to fight for the land they consider their own, the geography of Western Balkans, which negates many advantages of superior technology and firepower, the fact that the Serbian Army is no pushover, even now, the fact that Greek soldiers wouldn't be too happy invading other countries (even if it were Turkey or FYROM, to which I'm sure they are hostile), and that affects morale horribly.

The Hellenic Army is the most formidable force in the Balkans, but it's hardly able to roll all the way to the Danube.