MP5 gun returning to Ottawa Mounties despite troubled past

[Alin]

RCMP to re-equip Parliament Hill and embassy guards with H&K MP5 (http://www.canada.com/news/national/returning+Ottawa+Mounties+despite+troubled+past/2775567/story.html)

Now this doesn’t sounded like the MP5 we all come to appreciate and love. A rather ominous sign for the Mounties, isn’t it?

Although when I was younger, I do remember reading about police officers in Taiwan (where I’m originally from) having unusually frequent accidental discharges of their Mini-UZI (which was the automatic weapon for the rank-and-file) which I suspected were the product of inadequate training (‘though how that is possible with mandatory military service for most males, I do not know).

On the side, I would’ve thought a 5.56mm NATO carbine makes a better choice for patrol-car weapon. While most agencies have adopted semi-auto M4 carbine in 16 inch barrel, I personally think the semi-auto FN FS2000 (17” barrel) makes a more balance package between firepower and compactness. And if the bureaucrats/pencil-pushers want something more politically-docile, the bolt-action Steyr Scout seems to be a valid contender (I’ve tried the action on Elite 08 and found the action more fluid then Remington 700).

[Jippo]

Negligent discharge is in 99,5% of the cases human error that is due to inadequate training, bad weapon handling culture or downright negligence.

[HK in AK]

It is not the issue of the weapon, it is the issue of the operator. I have always found the MP5 to be at least 90 percent reliable. The FN is just fugly!

[dangerdan87]

But they are a bitch to clean.

[HK in AK]

An M60 chamber brush for the inside of the receiver, and a chamber brush for the trunnion. Not a big deal. If you need a nice wire brush for the bolt and carrier, they come out clean.

[marktigger]

C8 SF or G36K would be a better option. From the 5.56mm camp but might be seen as a bit to aggressive. MP5 is a great SMG and maybe some in .40 or 10mm might be a better option.

[Tucker217]

5.56 is too bulky, hence why 9mm is used, it can't be as bad as they make out or half of the worlds SF wouldn't use it following the SAS's example.
And why use the A2 and old A3 model with straight mag? why not issue the A4 or A5.

[martinexsquaddie]

to be honest a 5.56mm carbine is probably more what you want, The UK police mostly use those these days.
because 9mm does'nt cut it when faced with a pitbull the most likely target for UK polices rounds. Longest shot in uk police history is 73m so 9mm is quite capalbe of that. worry about crimals getting body armour is another one

[Jippo]

5.56 is too bulky, hence why 9mm is used, it can't be as bad as they make out or half of the worlds SF wouldn't use it following the SAS's example.
And why use the A2 and old A3 model with straight mag? why not issue the A4 or A5.

Because they had A2 and A3 in the armory? As the article says, they are reissuing old smg's with SE trigger groups.

And although 5.56 wasn't even an option, I do not see how exactly the bulk of it makes a worse police round? In the end it is lighter than 9x19 round. I do think it is far better as a police round simply because it has less penetration in almost any environment an officer can find himself. Then there is the flatter trajectory etc. which may not be that big thing in policing, but is definately another positive thing.

[Tucker217]

Well, say a bunch of Armed criminals take hostages, the Armed police have to do a Hostage rescue, 5.56 could go through a target and hit a hostage hence why the SAS use the mp5. 9mm wont penetrate as deep as 5.56 also 5.56 assault rifles tend to be quite large with long barrels whereas the MP5,MP7 etc... is Short, compact and more lightweight than say a M4 or G36.

Brit Airport police use the G36 and its Variants but most of the CO16,CO19 whatever use the MP5, I don't know if theres a reason for that...

[Pook2]

Well, say a bunch of Armed criminals take hostages, the Armed police have to do a Hostage rescue, 5.56 could go through a target and hit a hostage hence why the SAS use the mp5. 9mm wont penetrate as deep as 5.56

USDOJ 1987 Ballistics Study would disagree with you.

[LoboCanada]

Thought the Mounties at Parliament Hill should have the big guns when I was there on a tour, especially when you see the London Metro Police(?) with MP5s at their Parliament buildings.

[highdiver_2000]

Well, say a bunch of Armed criminals take hostages, the Armed police have to do a Hostage rescue, 5.56 could go through a target and hit a hostage hence why the SAS use the mp5. 9mm wont penetrate as deep as 5.56 also 5.56 assault rifles tend to be quite large with long barrels whereas the MP5,MP7 etc... is Short, compact and more lightweight than say a M4 or G36.

Brit Airport police use the G36 and its Variants but most of the CO16,CO19 whatever use the MP5, I don't know if theres a reason for that...

IIRC in SMGLee's series of SEALS armoury photos, MP5 has depreciated in favour of the M4 CQB model. Those are 5.56.

[Tucker217]

USDOJ 1987 Ballistics Study would disagree with you.

Tell that to the SAS and SBS.

[Jippo]

Tell that to the SAS and SBS.

It is true, regardless. 5.56 penetrates less structures or tissue in all configurations. Especially so as the police can use hollowpoints.

In FMJ 9x19 will penetrate around 70cm(!) of tissue. That has got to be some really fat hostagetaker.

[Wahnsinn]

Brit Airport police use the G36 and its Variants but most of the CO16,CO19 whatever use the MP5, I don't know if theres a reason for that...

Speaking to my father about this issue I'm informed that outside of London, many Police forces issue the G36 in favour of the MP5. I don't know if there is any particular reason for that but just saying that the MP5 isn't always chosen.

[Tucker217]

Speaking to my father about this issue I'm informed that outside of London, many Police forces issue the G36 in favour of the MP5. I don't know if there is any particular reason for that but just saying that the MP5 isn't always chosen.

My point before, I have a mate in CO6 what was SO16 who was issued a MP5 so its either what they have in the armouries or just in favour.

[brainplay]

It is true, regardless. 5.56 penetrates less structures or tissue in all configurations. Especially so as the police can use hollowpoints.

In FMJ 9x19 will penetrate around 70cm(!) of tissue. That has got to be some really fat hostagetaker.

Technically the penetration issue is apples and oranges as the 5.56mm has a tendency to fragment and pulverize the wound area at the ranges that police typically operate. The 9mm on the other hand will penetrate further in structures and deeper in tissue but creates a small wound channel that doesn't guarantee incapacitation.

While they may be in their inventories ($10,000-$15,000 each) not many units still use the Mp5 including the SAS who use the L119A1 which is a clone of the C8 which is a variant of the M4 as their primary carbine. Initial fears about the 5.56 over penetrating have been refuted since then.

[Royal]

the SAS used the mp5.

Corrected it for you :)


Tell that to the SAS and SBS.

Do me a favour? Stick to your area of expertise (clearly neither UKSF, nor ballistics) when sharing your gems of wisdom.


not many units still use the Mp5 including the SAS who use the L119A1 which is a clone of the C8 which is a variant of the M4 as their primary carbine.

It was, but the MP5 never filled that role and neither does its replacement.

[Jippo]

Technically the penetration issue is apples and oranges as the 5.56mm has a tendency to fragment and pulverize the wound area at the ranges that police typically operate.(=good) The 9mm on the other hand will penetrate further in structures and deeper in tissue but creates a small wound channel that doesn't guarantee incapacitation.(=bad)

....................

Right?

[Tucker217]

Thanks Royal mate :D

[JRok]

The MP5 is a great weapon, they won't be getting automatic though 3rd burst at best.

[martinexsquaddie]

the mp5k not so much a few people around missing finger tips.
Sussex Police now have shiny new G36 after 9mm failed fairly specactuly to put a pit bull down. Plus they were getting worn not so much from shooting more from twenty years of service.
learned this from two armed coppers who'd been called out because of shots fired behind a university. A farmer shooting rabbits :)
They did'nt appeciate my suggestion that they crawl across the muddy freshly ploughed fiedl to apprehend the dangerous armed criminal:)
instead they drove round and waited for him to check he was legit.

[oldsoak]

@martinexsquaddie

- so Sussex police pulled that one to justify the G36 did they ? :lol:

a 9mm round vs 5.56 on a small animal ( pitbulls are small compared with a St Bernard ) - not much danger of a full up rifle round going straight through and causing problems , eh ? Especially when shooting down at a shallow angle

[Hauser]

Speaking to my father about this issue I'm informed that outside of London, many Police forces issue the G36 in favour of the MP5. I don't know if there is any particular reason for that but just saying that the MP5 isn't always chosen.

Even inside london there is a massive variety of weapons used. The vehicle armed response teams seem to exclusively use MP5's and glocks. The police patrolling or guarding have alot more variety, ranging from G36c's, G3k's even saw a couple with steyr AUGs once. After the tube bombings, I saw quite a few police guarding sensitive locations armed with SG-552's and sig pistols. (Not convinced that these were actually police though...)

[Andreas]

HK416 carbine 10,5' barrel.. sweet deal...

Had to laugh a bit at the comment about the mini uzis.. haha I can picture it.. prbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbbrrrrrrrrr!!! oops 30 round accidental discharge in 1,5 secs, and everyone in the room is dead or wounded...

[martinexsquaddie]

@martinexsquaddie

- so Sussex police pulled that one to justify the G36 did they ? :lol:

a 9mm round vs 5.56 on a small animal ( pitbulls are small compared with a St Bernard ) - not much danger of a full up rifle round going straight through and causing problems , eh ? Especially when shooting down at a shallow angle

They have or had some very cool toys in there arsernal including silenced mp5s Best arguement from a copper was HK had a sales rep with a short skirt:). The scenarios where supressed weapons or there long range sniper rifles get broken out would make a good movie:)
They sold all there old enfields after losing a sniper match to the met not knowning they were using match ammo and the met had a tame obssesive handloader :)

[Straker]

Even inside london there is a massive variety of weapons used. The vehicle armed response teams seem to exclusively use MP5's and glocks. The police patrolling or guarding have alot more variety, ranging from G36c's, G3k's even saw a couple with steyr AUGs once. After the tube bombings, I saw quite a few police guarding sensitive locations armed with SG-552's and sig pistols. (Not convinced that these were actually police though...)

It is down to the different number of forces with an armed presence within London.


City of London police used to use Stery Aug 9mm carbines and 5.56mm rifles as well. Don't know what they use now.
Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary used to use Sig carbines but have transitioned to the G36 (and are no longer in London after they became the CNC). They used to guard the department of energy.
Ministry of Defence Police, much harder to spot, they use the same uniform as the met and were specially training personnel on the MP5 even after the transition to the MP7. Although some have been spotted at times.

The met are still using MP5 carbines because of cost (after all something has to pay for the joke that is metcall :oops:). They have far more AFOs than any other force in the country. To be honest the need for a static guarding trained AFO for anything more than a MP5 is dubious.

If you look at all the Menezes enquiry pictures you will see a lot of G36Cs in evidence, likewise G36Ks being used for containment roles.

Weirdly my local force went out and bought G36K to replace Steyr Aug carbines and only then realised they would be too long for entry work. Hence a rush purchase of MP5K PDW for SFO officers :roll:.