The European Union

[Commander Cool]

is an abomination which any country which wants to have any level of sovereignty should withdraw from, or not join if they haven't joined yet. Why anyone would want his country to join an organization which requires his country to surrender its sovereignty to Brussels is beyond me. Why anyone would be happy this his country now has to accept thousands of third world immigrants which will make native Europeans a minority in their own country and change their unique culture irreversably baffles me.

The EU was created by the French after WWII, the reasoning being that if Germany was tied down in a union with other Euro countries, they would not start another war. The US also supported the creation of the EU because we thought that a bloc of Euro countries could offer greater resistance to the spread of communism than individual countries. Clearly, the reasons for the EU's existence are obsolete.

I'm not denying that there are some economic benefits to the EU, such as the duty free trade of goods across Europe. But this hardly requires a single government that forces countries to sacrifice their sovereignty and have their decisions made from Brussels.

The funny thing is, I notice that the biggest supporters of the EU are eastern Euros like Poles who think they're hot **** now that they're "part of Europe" and "western". They don't seem to realize that the EU is taking away their sovereignty in the exact same way the USSR did. Why did they fight so hard to throw off communism and gain their freedom, if they're just going to give up their freedom again? Why did Slovenia fight so hard to free itself from being ruled from Belgrade, only to be ruled by Brussels (funny thing is, Slovenia had MORE influence over decisions and more representation in Belgrade than they do now in Brussels, much much more). These Eastern Euro countries are now 99% ethnically pure and have a unique culture that needs to be protected, but I bet in ten years they will have thousands of third worlders in them. Compare today's Ireland with the Ireland of 10 years ago, and ask the Irish how they feel about this DESTRUCTION of their culture.

The British National Party has it right:

Q: What does the BNP think about the European Union?

A: The European Union is a corrupt, totalitarian beast gobbling up the independent and free nations of ancient Europe. We want a Europe of traditional white nations, free and independent, not a multicultural, multiracial, dictatorial and bureaucratic European Superstate. Britain must secure its proud one-thousand-year-old freedom as an independent country by withdrawing from the European Union. If we do not, Britain will become a mere province, ruled from Brussels, with no influence whatsoever and no control over its own affairs. This is not the future we want, it is not the future the people want, it is not the future the people of Europe want. Only the self-serving liberal-left elite want it, and it’s time for the British people to tell them where to put their federal European ‘dream’!

http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html


More info on why the EU sucks:

http://www.silentmajority.co.uk/eurorealist/eucannot.html

[Midav]

FLAME WAR in 5..4..3..2..1

slowly backs out of thread

[scott]

you are entitled to that

I of course disagree with you and find the EU an essential piece of the international system. European countries simply can't achieve Great Power status alone. The rise of the EU represents a challenge to American hegemony (not necessarily a bad thing), the alternative beign for the UK, an even more significant rapprochement with the States. If you see international federalism as an erosion of culture than what can be said about globalization and the proliferation of Western ideals? (Global North is a better term) International isolationalism just isnt practical in the 21st Century, and European integration is in motion, whether in this generation or the next. Its just a matter of growing more comfortable with the changes that the UK really needs to survive as a Great Power.

Do you think everyone in Britain was happy about letting go of colonial territories post WWII?

[Commander Cool]

No there will not be a flame war, everyone will post that they agree with me, because I'm 100% right in everything I said.

[Jehuty]

I disagree.

[gaz]

The British National Party has it right:

Q: What does the BNP think about the European Union?

A: The European Union is a corrupt, totalitarian beast gobbling up the independent and free nations of ancient Europe. We want a Europe of traditional white nations, free and independent, not a multicultural, multiracial, dictatorial and bureaucratic European Superstate. Britain must secure its proud one-thousand-year-old freedom as an independent country by withdrawing from the European Union. If we do not, Britain will become a mere province, ruled from Brussels, with no influence whatsoever and no control over its own affairs. This is not the future we want, it is not the future the people want, it is not the future the people of Europe want. Only the self-serving liberal-left elite want it, and it’s time for the British people to tell them where to put their federal European ‘dream’!

http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html



Before you talk about the BNP having things right please scroll down the link you provided to the section entitled "Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?" or take a look at this story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3896213.stm)

[mmackem]

because I'm 100% right in everything I said.

You are also a Nazi if you support the BNP who's policy's include machine gunning Britain's arab population, blowing up mosques, and deporting all blacks from the UK.


The fact that they are anti-EU is just an afterthought.

[Commander Cool]

European countries simply can't achieve Great Power status alone.
What exactly does "great power status" even mean, and why do they need it? Why can't everyone be satisfied to simply live in his country, mind his own business, and propser?


he rise of the EU represents a challenge to American hegemony
You mean the EU wants to challenge America's right to defend itself against terrorists.


If you see international federalism as an erosion of culture than what can be said about globalization and the proliferation of Western ideals?
I don't think the west is trying to push its culture on the third world. Yes we do scold them when they violate human rights and we do encourage them to adopt democracy, but I don't see how that is tantamount to trying to change their culture.


International isolationalism just isnt practical in the 21st Century, and European integration is in motion, whether in this generation or the next. Its just a matter of growing more comfortable with the changes that the UK really needs to survive as a Great Power.
I agree that isolationism isn't good, but why can't the Europeans cooperate politically and economically without giving up their sovereignty to a single government?


Do you think everyone in Britain was happy about letting go of colonial territories post WWII?
To be honest I think that the majority of Brits couldn't have cared less about some piece of land thousands of miles away.

[perdurabo]

:cantbeli: :cantbeli:
EU - UE has its pros and cons
we can trawel without problems, we have no internal dutys to pay, and also in moust of times EU backs up yes it has too big beurocracy sometimes France or Germany wants to play as a ruler but it our internal problem not yours

[Pille1234]

I don't see why we have to explain another ignorant American why we do what we do. Believe what you wish to and let others do the same and everthing works fine.

[AROUETLJ]

Commander Cool is just jealous.

[-Max2-]

Commander Cool:

You are not European so you cant understand the importance of this union...


http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html

Great link. :roll:

The British National Party is a far-right party full of fascists...

[Commander Cool]

Before you talk about the BNP having things right please scroll down the link you provided to the section entitled "Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?" or take a look at this story.
Their opinions on race do not make their opinions on the EU less valid.

According to your logic:

1) X thinks that Y is true
2) But Y is not true
3) X things that Z is true
4) since X thinks that Y is true and Y is wrong, therefore Z is also wrong.


You are also a Nazi if you support the BNP who's policy's include machine gunning Britain's arab population, blowing up mosques, and deporting all blacks from the UK
The fact that there are some members of the BNP who holds these views is irrelevent. The BNP has it right when it comes to the EU, and immigration too.

Btw bringing out the "nazi" argument was very weak on your part.



I don't see why we have to explain another ignorant American why we do what we do. Believe what you wish to and let others do the same and everthing works fine.
The reason you won't explain me anything is because you CAN'T. You don't have any arguments to refute my points because they are correct.


Commander Cool is just jealous.
Yes, that's it! Oh, if only some geezers in Brussels would give me the privilege of letting them decide how much taxes I should pay! If only!


You are not European so you cant understand the importance of this union...
That is a ridiculous argument. Why does my geographic location have anything to do with anythign?


\The British National Party is a far-right party full of fascists...
They are still right about the EU. It goes to show that the old saying is correct: Even a broken clock is right two times a day.

[perdurabo]

and about culture EU is backing strongly regional culture. Its one of ideas that we dont mess with our cultural diffrences, duchman is duchman, góral (Polish highlander) is góral, no one wants to make them one.

[Mark Sman]

Q: What is the BNP's policy on defence and the Armed Forces?

A: We will ensure Britain's armed forces are able to deal with any emergency, and maintain British sovereignty over our national territory. We favour a boost in defence spending, with spending priority given to training and advanced weapons. We will bring our troops back from Germany and withdraw from NATO, since recent political developments make both commitments obsolete. We will close all foreign military bases on British soil. We will maintain an independent British nuclear deterrent. We will restore National Service for our young, for the purposes both of boosting our defence capability, breaking down the class barriers that still afflict the country, and of giving them a sound training in citizenship.


Q: Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?

A: We are against mixed-raced relationships because we believe that all species and races of life on this planet are beautiful and must be preserved. When whites take partners from other ethnic groups, a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed. And, of course, the same is true of the non-white side. We want generations that spring from us to be the same as us, look like us, and be moved by the same things as us. We feel that to preserve the rich tapestry of mankind, we must preserve ethnic differences, not ‘mish-mash’ them together.

Wow, these guys are tools.

[perdurabo]

Your data:

Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan

your statment:

Yes, that's it! Oh, if only some geezers in Brussels would give me the privilege of letting them decide how much taxes I should pay! If only!


You live in USA so you dont pay taxes to brussels but to washington DC,
Also EU dosent say countrys how high taxes have to be Poland for example has PIT 19% (and others higher we have progresive PIT but due to low CIT noone pays them) CIT 19% and VAT 22%, Germany has other taxes much higher, ireland has much lower taxes.....

[moughoun]

No it is not certain member's of the BNP, that hold that view, if you had been in the UK last week you would have seen a nice documentry on the BNP,oh they are a lovely bunch of guy's, with the machine gunning muslim's out side a Mosque on a Friday, or beating the **** out of teenager's on weekend, bless their little heart's, now back to the EU, yes there are big problem's with it, the UK doesn't know where they want to be, the German's are tired of paying the bill's, the French uwant to use it as a bullhorn to shout at the rest of the World with, the Italian's don't knowthey are in it, the Pole's are headstrong and not taking **** from the old guard, the Irish are a bit mean to the new comers, ect ect, but we'll wade our way through, and no we don't want to be a super power, we've seen the the **** that happen's to one and the the **** one causes, thank's but no thank's we'll pass ;)

[scott]

European countries simply can't achieve Great Power status alone.
What exactly does "great power status" even mean, and why do they need it? Why can't everyone be satisfied to simply live in his country, mind his own business, and propser?


he rise of the EU represents a challenge to American hegemony
You mean the EU wants to challenge America's right to defend itself against terrorists.


If you see international federalism as an erosion of culture than what can be said about globalization and the proliferation of Western ideals?
I don't think the west is trying to push its culture on the third world. Yes we do scold them when they violate human rights and we do encourage them to adopt democracy, but I don't see how that is tantamount to trying to change their culture.


International isolationalism just isnt practical in the 21st Century, and European integration is in motion, whether in this generation or the next. Its just a matter of growing more comfortable with the changes that the UK really needs to survive as a Great Power.
I agree that isolationism isn't good, but why can't the Europeans cooperate politically and economically without giving up their sovereignty to a single government?


Do you think everyone in Britain was happy about letting go of colonial territories post WWII?
To be honest I think that the majority of Brits couldn't have cared less about some piece of land thousands of miles away.

Wow, there I was thinking you were a British nationalist.
Now I see youre just an isolationalist minded American that sees the EU as a threat to be feared and stiffled.

I will now deal with your contentions.
What makes a Great Power? Excellent question. I would argue hat it is a combination of hard (tangible things like military and economic) and soft (culture and intangibles) power matched with the will to lead or dominate (the proactive will) Great power status comes into play whenever you hear of the Unipolar world or the Uni-Multipolar world. Huntington argues that we are living in the latter, a Unipolar world (American hegemony) with the potential for a Multipolar balance (China, India and of course the EU)

Your second quote does not even deserve a response. However its odd that you have an isolationalist view ("Why can't everyone be satisfied to simply live in his country, mind his own business, and propser?") but expect states to open their arms to American interventions abroad.



This one is my favorite...
"To be honest I think that the majority of Brits couldn't have cared less about some piece of land thousands of miles away."

Then why do you? Let Europe band together, it is certainly in their best interest.

[Nordic Fire]

Before you talk about the BNP having things right please scroll down the link you provided to the section entitled "Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?" or take a look at this story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3896213.stm)
Thanks for the link. It was extremely informative.

In my eyes, this further marginalizes the anti-EU, pro-nationalistic parties in general. It's funny how every fringe nationalistic party seems to attract these morons, who'd like nothing better than to close all the borders and infringe on the fundamental rights such as free travel and interaction of their fellow human beings.

You can't hold on to obsolete nationalistic romantic ideas like a race, borders or classes of peoples in a unified Europe. It's either a union of all or none - regardless of you ethnicity, the colour of your skin or your religion (if any).

[SpazzMunky]

I certainly see nothing wrong with the EU.




It increases the chances we won't have to get involved in another war over there ;)

[moughoun]

I certainly see nothing wrong with the EU.




It increases the chances we won't have to get involved in another war over there ;)

That's good old fashioned American pragmatism :D

[-Max2-]

That is a ridiculous argument. Why does my geographic location have anything to do with anythign?

Not as ridiculous as you...

You live very far from us and you dont know jacksh*t whats going on here.


They are still right about the EU. It goes to show that the old saying is correct: Even a broken clock is right two times a day.

We have a new EU expert... :roll:

You post some BS from a fascist party so it must be true ?

[fantassin]

I am sick of living in the EU.

I'd so much rather live in a democratic country where the president gets elected with 500,000 less votes than his opponent thanks to the votes of the state his brother governs.

And then, he becomes president, just like his father, or just like in a kingdom.

Plus, I could get unbiased news from the likes of Krauthammer or Linbaugh who thinks sodomizing an iraqi POW is like hi school hazing.

And damn, I won't even get obese like 1/3 of the population.

God, the EU really sucks.

[Pandy]

Umm...

United States puts in about 54% of the funds the United Nations has... I say let the Europe have it's own government... and the United States should have the United Nations...

:oops:

My Time to get flamed....

[Yosy]

Commander Cool should be banned by just posting a link to a neo-nazi party.

The EU is the best thing that happened to my country. After a Vietnam-like war and a revolution, we were able to recover again in just 15 years. The funds of the EU are essential for small countries. The EU brought together rival european nations in a way never seen before. Most europeans feel very strongly about the EU. Countries that join the EU don't loose their independence.

And why the hell is Bush always pushing for Turkey to join? It's not his business.

[Rantanplan]

http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Rantanplan/Adolf.jpg

[Freibier]

EU makes USA nervous - that's good :P
No Ami would ever admit it, but oh well ...

[army cadet_ngcsu]

It doesn't make us nervous, it just pisses us off that you let one country (France) along with their little helper (Germany) do what they want with the Union and all the other members just put up with their bull **** and rants.

I sure as hell do not see how France got to be in a position where it is now.

[fantassin]

Population:


France: 60,000,000
Germany: 82,000,000

Total: 142,000,000

EU: 453,000,000

helps you understand a bit better ?

Quote:

I sure as hell do not see how France got to be in a position where it is now

Answer: By making sure it always remained independant from the USA.

[perdurabo]

army cadet_ngcsu: because you don't live here you dont see that we dont let them rule yes they both have meany votes but we still can say no.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

lol, by making sure it was independent of us? Since when have we tried to occupy France or exploit it? The population of France and Germany does not mean anything at all, these two countries still wield a lot of influence in the EU, that can not be denied.

[Commander Cool]

No it is not certain member's of the BNP, that hold that view, if you had been in the UK last week you would have seen a nice documentry on the BNP
Yes and I'm sure that documentary was 100% unbiased and not politically motivated at all.


Your second quote does not even deserve a response. However its odd that you have an isolationalist view ("Why can't everyone be satisfied to simply live in his country, mind his own business, and propser?") but expect states to open their arms to American interventions abroad.
What makes you think I support all the American interventions? For the record I think the US should adopt a more non-interventionist strategy, and withdraw most of our troops home.


Not as ridiculous as you...

You live very far from us and you dont know jacksh*t whats going on here.
Wow what clever reasoning! Listen, how about stopping the ad hominem arguements, and actually trying to refute my points? Oh wait that would require intelligence... Never mind then.


I'd so much rather live in a democratic country where the president gets elected with 500,000 less votes than his opponent thanks to the votes of the state his brother governs.

And then, he becomes president, just like his father, or just like in a kingdom.
You need to stop listening to Michael Moore. There is no truth to any of that BS.


United States puts in about 54% of the funds the United Nations has... I say let the Europe have it's own government... and the United States should have the United Nations...
I say screw the UN, what has it ever done for the US?


Commander Cool should be banned by just posting a link to a neo-nazi party.
Yes you leftist Euroweenies like to BAN people and CENSOR your opposition, that's the only way you can exist, if you take away the right to free speech. Ok there, Big Brother.


he EU is the best thing that happened to my country.
Just wait 10 years until Portugal looks like Detroit. Then you'll eat those words.


EU makes USA nervous - that's good
Haha the only thing the EU makes me do is laugh... at their pathetic attempt to match us. The EU will NEVER match the US, not in economy, not in political influence, not in military might, NEVER! Forcing people of different cultures to live together and be ruled by the same place doesn't work. In fact I predict the EU will crumple within the next 50 years, just like every other multiethnic experiment, ie Rome and more recently Yugoslavia.

[cut]

It doesn't make us nervous, it just pisses us off that you let one country (France) along with their little helper (Germany) do what they want with the Union and all the other members just put up with their bull **** and rants.

I sure as hell do not see how France got to be in a position where it is now.

Yeah, countries like the UK and Italy are really letting France and germany tell them what to do. :roll: :roll:

So you would rather have the EU countries should let US do what they want with the world, and all the other countries put up with US bull**** and rants?

We'll buy into it when we want to buy into it. If we want to help the US we do (e.g. UK for the iraq war) when we don't want to we won't. The US has no right to go ordering us about, the EU allows us that freedom, and that is why you hate the EU.



note: to commander cool, if you post British "Nazi" Party politics again, however watered down, I will point it out to the mods.

[CannibalSquirel]

I agree that isolationism isn't good, but why can't the Europeans cooperate politically and economically without giving up their sovereignty to a single government?

Ok, besides almost every quote of commander cool represents ignorance lets focus on what matters on this discussion - sovereignty.

The EU/UE doesn´t take any sovereignty from the member states. We are not ruled by some guy in Brussels ( now Durão Barroso, former portuguese prime minister ).
All the member states can withdraw from the EU whenever they want to and they are not obliged to do anything. Of course there´s a set of rules, wich is normal - to maintan a certain level of economic competition ( for example ) you have to got rules. But no member state is in the EU on badwill.

Let us be honest: the EU is the biggest economic bloc in the world. There´s no menace to the sovereignty of any countrie on the EU and your vision commander cool, is something simply amazing. You, being an american ( I suppose ) should know better then all of us that the USA started with a union of states.

I don´t see you crying and shouting about that, do I?

[fantassin]

quote:

The population of France and Germany does not mean anything at all

Wrong; in the coming european constitution, the population base gives the number of votes at the parliament, hence the problem with the possible arrival of Turkey which has the most numerous population.

And yes, I will listen to the junky Linbaugh or the cripple Krauthammer, I will then see the light of faith driven politics.

[Foreigner]

I've been reading articles for a while now on this forum but this moronic thread made me register. This is the dumbest, full of **** thread with the most horrible opening post and with a ****head of a topic starter who doesn't know jack**** about the EU or Europe in general providing FALSE facts about the EU from some nazi site. And he expects US to take him serious?

Here you go kids. Some information about the EU NOT stolen from some nazi site:


Beginnings: war and peace

For centuries, Europe was the scene of frequent and bloody wars. In the period 1870 to 1945, France and Germany fought each other three times, with terrible loss of life. A number of European leaders became convinced that the only way to secure a lasting peace between their countries was to unite them economically and politically.

So, in 1950, the French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman proposed integrating the coal and steel industries of Western Europe. A a result, in 1951, the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was set up, with six members: Belgium, West Germany, Luxembourg, France, Italy and the Netherlands. The power to take decisions about the coal and steel industry in these countries was placed in the hands of an independent, supranational body called the "High Authority". Jean Monnet was its first President.



From three communities to the European Union

The ECSC was such a success that, within a few years, these same six countries decided to go further and integrate other sectors of their economies. In 1957 they signed the Treaties of Rome, creating the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) and the European Economic Community (EEC). The member states set about removing trade barriers between them and forming a "common market".

In 1967 the institutions of the three European communities were merged. From this point on, there was a single Commission and a single Council of Ministers as well as the European Parliament.

Originally, the members of the European Parliament were chosen by the national parliaments but in 1979 the first direct elections were held, allowing the citizens of the member states to vote for the candidate of their choice. Since then, direct elections have been held every five years.

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) introduced new forms of co-operation between the member state governments - for example on defence, and in the area of "justice and home affairs". By adding this inter-governmental co-operation to the existing "Community" system, the Maastricht Treaty created the European Union (EU).



Integration means common policies

Economic and political integration between the member states of the European Union means that these countries have to take joint decisions on many matters. So they have developed common policies in a very wide range of fields - from agriculture to culture, from consumer affairs to competition, from the environment and energy to transport and trade.

In the early days the focus was on a common commercial policy for coal and steel and a common agricultural policy. Other policies were added as time went by, and as the need arose. Some key policy aims have changed in the light of changing circumstances. For example, the aim of the agricultural policy is no longer to produce as much food as cheaply as possible but to support farming methods that produce healthy, high-quality food and protect the environment. The need for environmental protection is now taken into account across the whole range of EU policies.

The European Union's relations with the rest of the world have also become important. The EU negotiates major trade and aid agreements with other countries and is developing a Common Foreign and Security Policy.



The Single Market: banning the barriers

It took some time for the Member States to remove all the barriers to trade between them and to turn their "common market" into a genuine single market in which goods, services, people and capital could move around freely. The Single Market was formally completed at the end of 1992, though there is still work to be done in some areas - for example, to create a genuinely single market in financial services.

During the 1990s it became increasingly easy for people to move around in Europe, as passport and customs checks were abolished at most of the EU's internal borders. One consequence is greater mobility for EU citizens. Since 1987, for example, more than a million young Europeans have taken study courses abroad, with support from the EU.



The Single Currency: the euro in your pocket

In 1992 the EU decided to go for economic and monetary union (EMU), involving the introduction of a single European currency managed by a European Central Bank. The single currency - the euro - became a reality on 1 January 2002, when euro notes and coins replaced national currencies in twelve of the 15 countries of the European Union (Belgium, Germany, Greece, Spain, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Austria, Portugal and Finland).



The growing family

The EU has grown in size with successive waves of accessions. Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom joined in 1973 followed by Greece in 1981, Spain and Portugal in 1986 and Austria, Finland and Sweden in 1995. The European Union welcomed ten new countries in 2004: Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Bulgaria and Romania expect to follow a few years later and Turkey is also a candidate country. To ensure that the EU can continue functioning efficiently with 25 or more members, its decision-making system must be streamlined. That is why the Treaty of Nice lays down new rules governing the size of the EU institutions and the way they work. It came into force on 1 February 2003.

Source (http://europa.eu.int/abc/history/index_en.htm)

[Nordic Fire]

In fact I predict the EU will crumple within the next 50 years, just like every other multiethnic experiment, ie Rome and more recently Yugoslavia.
Funny that you should comment on multiethnicity in such a fashion. I thought it was the flux of immigrants that made US such a strong nation in the first place?

Ever read biology? Monocultures do not survive.

[Rannyoby]

don't feed the troll, let it die of inanition, there's enough material to get him banned at least twice (well, i don't know exactly since i'm not accustomed to these forums) ;)

[cut]

In fact I predict the EU will crumple within the next 50 years, just like every other multiethnic experiment, ie Rome and more recently Yugoslavia.

rofl and the US?

[perdurabo]

THX foreginer it's all here

[Commander Cool]

note: to commander cool, if you post British "Nazi" Party politics again, however watered down, I will point it out to the mods.
Yes typical leftist strategy, threats and censorship. Btw the mods will do nothing except laugh at you because there is nothing wrong with posting the point of view of the BNP or any other party if that particular POV does not advocate racism or illegal activity, which it does not.


Ok, besides almost every quote of commander cool represents ignorance lets focus on what matters on this discussion - sovereignty.
Another ad hominem attack... I feel like I'm in the 4th grade again. Quite nostalgic, actually.


The EU/UE doesn´t take any sovereignty from the member states. ...are not obliged to do anything.
Not true! The EU's decisions have to be implemented by local governments whether the locals want it or not. There are veto rights, but countries can be out-vetoed. For example, if another EU country wants to arrest a British citizen, Britain has no choice but arrest him and hand him over to that country.


the USA started with a union of states.

I don´t see you crying and shouting about that, do I?
Big difference, the American states were all composed of the same people, who had the same culture, the same religion, the same values, the same everything. Making them live together had no reason to cause any problems. Besides, this happened many years ago when the western world did not face the same type of immigration problems from the third world.


I've been reading articles for a while now on this forum but this moronic thread made me register. This is the dumbest, full of **** thread with the most horrible opening post and with a ****head of a topic starter who doesn't know jack**** about the EU or Europe in general providing FALSE facts about the EU from some nazi site. And he expects US to take him serious?
**** off idiot. When you can put together a sentence that does not include personal attacks against someone just because his opinion differs from yours, then come back. As for your "source" (eu.int) well duh of course it's going to sing the praises of the EU, how naive are you?


Funny that you should comment on multiethnicity in such a fashion. I thought it was the flux of immigrants that made US such a strong nation in the first place?
Yes, but these immigrants were taken in at a very slow pace which allowed them to be assimilated into our "melting pot". When the EU takes in thousands of immigrants at a time, they are not going to be assimilated into your culture. Instead they are going to change your culture, and that cannot be reversed.


Ever read biology? Monocultures do not survive.
So your argument is that Europe needs to take in more immigrants in order to increase the diversity of its gene pool? I don't even know where to begin telling you how wrong that is.

[fantassin]

Starve the troll.

[Foreigner]

Attacking me on my source do you? You are even more hypocrite then I thought.

[CannibalSquirel]

Big difference, the American states were all composed of the same people, who had the same culture, the same religion, the same values, the same everything. Making them live together had no reason to cause any problems. Besides, this happened many years ago when the western world did not face the same type of immigration problems from the third world.

Is this a joke? I believe it is.

Oh, btw, the EU doesn´t have a common justice system - António Vitorino is the Justice comissar - so that bs of a guy arrested in one countrie by order of other doesn´t have anything to do with the EU organization. But, I suppose, it´s a good thing because if a guy is a criminal in, let´s say, Lisbon, is a criminal in Paris or Rome too correct? Its your opinion that an assassination is valid in one countrie and un-valid in other?


Another ad hominem attack... I feel like I'm in the 4th grade again. Quite nostalgic, actually.

For God sake! It wasn´t an ad hominem attack. It´s simple: your views are really ignorant. Just that!

[OldRecon]

In fact I predict the EU will crumple within the next 50 years, just like every other multiethnic experiment, ie Rome and more recently Yugoslavia.

rofl and the US?

Being a citizen of one of the few European countries outside the Union, I still think EU is a lot better than the old days with French and Germans repeatedly bashing each other with the British and Russians occasionaly joining in / being forced in the fray with this or that side to balance things.
Look at all the military cemeteries around Europe and you'll se why.
In a miniature format one had the same kind of relationship between Sweden, Denmark/Norway until things finaly settled down at the end of the Napoleonic wars.
Now the rest of Europe follow suit.
So even if it means swallowing a camel or two for all parties involved, I'm pro EU on that account alone.

[Kitsune]

Point is, if you want to have a free trade zone between nations (an idea propagated by the US among others), you need to have a supranational organsiation that rules it.
For example: I for example hashish is allowed in one nation, lets say Durchland, but forbidden in Belgium, people from Belgium can drive to Holland, buy Hashish there, and go back to Belgium. Thats a problem. And to solve it one has to make an decision for the whole free trade zone: Is hashish allowed or not?
Or take taxes on some wares like tobacco. If they are high in the Netherlands but low in Belgium, the Dutch could circumvent their high tobaccotaxes by buying it in Begium...again you have to align these taxes for the whole free trade zone.
There are many other possible examples, but the gist is: If you want to have a free trade zone, let alone one with an common currency to facilitate trade, you need someone who makes the rules governing it.
So, because of this, the EU is a necessity.

Of course there is the question, how far does the ruling power of this supranational entity extend? That is why I am pro constitiution: Until now we had a complicated system of treaties, which was even more complicated since some dudes (the British for example), usually wanted to have a special rule for them, with special exceptions, for them, giving special rights, to them. Thats one of the main reasons why the EU has become this bureaucratic monster: Everyone has his own ideas and conceptions and tries to incoporate them into it. and that has accumulated over time.
But the most important thing of a constitution is to creat clear cut "rules of the game". Rules that also define how far the power of the EU extends and what is strictly national buisiness.

I envision the EU finally as a Confederation (a Confederation in the sense as an entity, were, in contrast to a Federation, the single states comprising it, are still the main "carriers" of souvereignty). Interesting role model is the Helvetican Confederation aka Switzerland. Switzerland consists of Cantons, whose laws are so different that in at least one even the right of women to vote hasn't been introduced yet, while others have done so. Some Cantons speak German (well, they try to ;) ), others French and some even Italian. Nonetheless, the Swiss have a strong sense of "supracantonal" identity, and stand together when attacked from the outside. I would like to see it, that Europe achieves something like this at soem time in the future (actually, the Swiss tribes originally fought against each other, but they finally agreed to make peace among themselves and to cooperate to protect their freedom, which is a similarity to Europe). Nonetheless, many things should stay within the competence of the national states, for example the military. While European armies should develope the ability to cooperate and to create effective European Task Forces, there should be (in my opinion) no Euro Army.

Its still a long way we have to go. Even the Constitiution will most probably never be ratified. That will be just another setback.
But remember: It was not so different with the USA. Why is there a federal government? Why federal armed forces? This wasn't self-evident, until the secession war, every state had its own armed forces, while the US army was quite small. And the US Navy was a power of some potence only from the 1890ties on. And there have a lot of curses been spoken towards Washington, during the course of the US history. Washington and its government have been accused of being a corrupt monstrosity, that wants to bring everyone in America under its totalitarian will. Does that found familiar? ;)

[Nordic Fire]

Yes, but these immigrants were taken in at a very slow pace which allowed them to be assimilated
Heh. Yeah, right.

Congratulations on the nice troll. I myself am going to refrain from feeding you any further.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Oh please, the French have been undermining fellow European countries and bull ****ting others for decades. All the time and effort that de Gaulle put in trying to change Europe's defense arrangements just to specifically sideline the US and the UK during the cold war is a fine example and even to this day they are trying to do the same thing with this EU defense force. Another is how de Gaulle vetoed the UK's application to be in the EEC twice for fear of losing economic and political influence.

In fact, I just remembered reading something about the French and the Germans from a book called "The Europeans" by Luigi Barzini in which he talks about how Charles de Gaulle and Konrad Adenaur had actual conversations of how best to integrate Europe and undermine the US's influence in the continent. It would eventually lead to the Treaty of Elysee (Sp?) and the founding of the EU.

[-Max2-]

He reminds me of Sixgun Symphony.

The good old time... rofl

[Foreigner]

Big difference, the American states were all composed of the same people, who had the same culture, the same religion, the same values, the same everything. Making them live together had no reason to cause any problems. Besides, this happened many years ago when the western world did not face the same type of immigration problems from the third world.

Aha, so the war between North and South never happend? One of the bloodiest war in the history of mankind is just a mishap I suppose. The Nazi-Germany vs the Allied forces is comparable with the South ('nazi's) and the North (Allies).

History is being made right here. And there is nothing that some frustrated kid can do about it.

[Operation Ivy]

I don't see why we have to explain another ignorant American why we do what we do. Believe what you wish to and let others do the same and everthing works fine.

O u great Europeans are always so nice and never ignorant, u guys bitch at us all the time no matter what we do....

and besides i anit scared of the EU bein #1 cause China will be long before you guys ;)


and i like most Euro's :D

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Not true! The EU's decisions have to be implemented by local governments whether the locals want it or not. There are veto rights, but countries can be out-vetoed. For example, if another EU country wants to arrest a British citizen, Britain has no choice but arrest him and hand him over to that country.

Thats BS.


btw. commander, better you shoud worry about millions of Mexican imigrants storming the US borders.
EU is our business. Maybe it irritate you so much, because US can do sh*t about it and doesn't have any influence on the EU.

[Operation Ivy]

Not true! The EU's decisions have to be implemented by local governments whether the locals want it or not. There are veto rights, but countries can be out-vetoed. For example, if another EU country wants to arrest a British citizen, Britain has no choice but arrest him and hand him over to that country.

Thats BS.


btw. commander, better you shoud worry about millions of Mexican imigrants storming the US borders.
EU is our business. Maybe it irritate you so much, because US can do sh*t about it.

and u should worry about all the Arabs and such goin into Europe ;)

[cut]

Oh please, the French have been undermining fellow European countries and bull ****ting others for decades. All the time and effort that de Gaulle put in trying to change Europe's defense arrangements just to specifically sideline the US and the UK during the cold war is a fine example and even to this day they are trying to do the same thing with this EU defense force. Another is how de Gaulle vetoed the UK's application to be in the EEC twice for fear of losing economic and political influence.

In fact, I just remembered reading something about the French and the Germans from a book called "The Europeans" by Luigi Barzini in which he talks about how Charles de Gaulle and Konrad Adenaur had actual conversations of how best to integrate Europe and undermine the US's influence in the continent. It would eventually lead to the Treaty of Elysee (Sp?) and the founding of the EU.

the Cold war is over, they would be happy with the lack of US influence we have now.

[Foreigner]

O u great Europeans are always so nice and never ignorant, u guys bitch at us all the time no matter what we do....

and besides i anit scared of the EU bein #1 cause China will be long before you guys


and i like most Euro's

Let us not make this a flamewar between the US and the EU, because of the semi-nazi topicstarter.

Just like I enjoyed my trip to the US. :D

[perdurabo]

Oh please, the French have been undermining fellow European countries and bull ****ting others for decades. All the time and effort that de Gaulle put in trying to change Europe's defense arrangements just to specifically sideline the US and the UK during the cold war is a fine example and even to this day they are trying to do the same thing with this EU defense force. Another is how de Gaulle vetoed the UK's application to be in the EEC twice for fear of losing economic and political influence.

In fact, I just remembered reading something about the French and the Germans from a book called "The Europeans" by Luigi Barzini in which he talks about how Charles de Gaulle and Konrad Adenaur had actual conversations of how best to integrate Europe and undermine the US's influence in the continent. It would eventually lead to the Treaty of Elysee (Sp?) and the founding of the EU.
UK is in and have all rights that it is bond with EU joining
USA influences that is your pain :lol: when EU will be closer cooperation USA will loos its ability to control it :lol:

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

and u should worry about all the Arabs and such goin into Europe ;)

It's French business.
In Poland they would freeze to death ;)

[moughoun]

and u should worry about all the Arabs and such goin into Europe ;)

It's French business.
In Poland they would freeze to death ;)

Are you sure you couldn't keep them warm with that legendary Polish hospitality :lol:
btw I'm still waiting for my pizza p-)

[army cadet_ngcsu]

believe me when i say that i think the EU is not a bad thing, in fact it is a great thing. but instead of working with the US, it seems more often than not that CERTAIN countries within the EU that wield a lot of power are working against the US. France's decline to send the EU rapid defense force (i think that is what it is called) to A-Stan despite pleas from Hamid Karzai. France's refusal to let us use their air space in the bombings of Libya in the 80's resulting in the deaths of some air men. The EU's lack of monetary funds and writing off debt to Iraq is a joke considering how rich they are. Their blind support of Arabs and Palestinians in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.

Plus there are the little things, like undermining the US in international trade agreements, unfair business tactics in the Boeing vs. Airbus competition, opposing sanctions on genocidal Sudan, etc. etc.

These are just some things I can name off the top of my head, I'm sure if you were to do some real research one would be even more astonished at how France's behavior is child like and how the bring down the entire EU.

[cut]

believe me when i say that i think the EU is not a bad thing, in fact it is a great thing. but instead of working with the US, it seems more often than not that CERTAIN countries within the EU that wield a lot of power are working against the US. France's decline to send the EU rapid defense force (i think that is what it is called) to A-Stan despite pleas from Hamid Karzai. France's refusal to let us use their air space in the bombings of Libya in the 80's resulting in the deaths of some air men. The EU's lack of monetary funds and writing off debt to Iraq is a joke considering how rich they are. Their blind support of Arabs and Palestinians in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.

Plus there are the little things, like undermining the US in international trade agreements, unfair business tactics in the Boeing vs. Airbus competition, opposing sanctions on genocidal Sudan, etc. etc.

These are just some things I can name off the top of my head, I'm sure if you were to do some real research one would be even more astonished at how France's behavior is child like and how the bring down the entire EU.

So all you are saying is that you have a problem with the French, and you are projecting the dislike onto the rest of the EU?

The US often underminds friends to help US industry (steel recently, wasn't it?), It's the way the world economy works, it's not fair but everyone does it. unfair business tactics in the aerospace industry? Are you aware of what the american government did to supersonic passenger flight when it banned concorde from flying over north america? Internal US flights have to be with US built planes don't they?
Sanctions stopping genocide? Since when? We need to get troops in and so far the only ones that are making a move are Europeans.

The US's refusal to support the UK and France during the Suez crisis. The US's equally blind support of Israel. Bush's refusal to allow the proposed EU RRF to take over from NATO in Europe. The list goes on..

The US matches France in terms of "child like behaviour"

[fantassin]

You are such a caricature of what makes the USA unpopular in Europe.

If you can't live the idea of a dwindling US influence in Europe, so be it.

But don't be such a cry baby about it.

[Pille1234]

I don't see why we have to explain another ignorant American why we do what we do. Believe what you wish to and let others do the same and everthing works fine.

O u great Europeans are always so nice and never ignorant, u guys bitch at us all the time no matter what we do....

and besides i anit scared of the EU bein #1 cause China will be long before you guys ;)


and i like most Euro's :D
No Ivy, there are more than enough ignorant Europeans, but that's not the point. From time to time obviously ignorant Americans appear (Sixgun, Commander Cool) to tell us why the EU is going to fail, what we should do, that Arabs are going to take over Europe or that France and Germany are pushing the others around. If someone is really interested in the EU and wants something to know about the pros and cons, fine, we can discuss that here. Nevertheless I'm tired of people without knowledge who are obviously not interested in facts but in bitching at the EU.

[perdurabo]

Are you sure you couldn't keep them warm with that legendary Polish hospitality :lol:
btw I'm still waiting for my pizza p-)

we have few of them and last winter i saw black guy here damn he was whole purpule poor guy!
what was with that pizza?

[Rantanplan]

He Commander! I got a new Avartar for you.

http://img20.exs.cx/img20/2082/CommanderCool.jpg

[Operation Ivy]

I don't see why we have to explain another ignorant American why we do what we do. Believe what you wish to and let others do the same and everthing works fine.

O u great Europeans are always so nice and never ignorant, u guys bitch at us all the time no matter what we do....

and besides i anit scared of the EU bein #1 cause China will be long before you guys ;)


and i like most Euro's :D
No Ivy, there are more than enough ignorant Europeans, but that's not the point. From time to time obviously ignorant Americans appear (Sixgun, Commander Cool) to tell us why the EU is going to fail, what we should do, that Arabs are going to take over Europe or that France and Germany are pushing the others around. If someone is really interested in the EU and wants something to know about the pros and cons, fine, we can discuss that here. Nevertheless I'm tired of people without knowledge who are obviously not interested in facts but in bitching at the EU.

thats cool man :D

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Are you sure you couldn't keep them warm with that legendary Polish hospitality :lol:

Nah, If we tried to keep them warm, they would die from drunkenness ;)


btw I'm still waiting for my pizza p-)

Huh? :roll:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/04/03/images/2003040301210101.jpg

Happy now? ;)

[Kitsune]

I like Ivy. He is cute. :D

[perdurabo]

I like Ivy. He is cute. :D
Ive ruuun ruuuuunnnnnn for your life! save your ass :lol: :lol:

[army cadet_ngcsu]

The US often underminds friends to help US industry (steel recently, wasn't it?), It's the way the world economy works, it's not fair but everyone does it.

Bush did that in a last ditch effort to salvage what is left of the U.S. Steel Industry. Foreign steel, more specifically South Korean steel, is cheap as dirt and they use UNFAIR TACTICS to undermine our industry, hell even the International Trade Commission issued a ruling that gave President Bush a limited window of opportunity to fight back against the unfair trade practices.


Are you aware of what the american government did to supersonic passenger flight when it banned concorde from flying over north america?

Concorde flights flew to NYC for decades and no one in America really cared but the wealthy and it was only the wealthy and the Europeans that cared when the US banned the flights because the planes were no longer safe to be travelled on...they were unsafe.


The US's refusal to support the UK and France during the Suez crisis.

Its not ours, why should we care, where we you guys in Panama a couple years back?


The US's equally blind support of Israel.

Israel is a state currently under siege by terrorist assholes. When the US and Spain were attacked by terrorists, it seems that both countries went after those killers...why can't the Israelis do the same? The US, Israel, and even the Palestinians now know that Arafat is a lying sack of ****, he does not want peace, he wants war...yet many European governments support him and the puppet Palestinian Authority and other terrorist groups.

As for the EU RFF, it is going to undermine NATO and in the end I think the Europeans are going to be sorry about it. After all, a majority of the peacekeeping operations that have been going on for the past 25 years or so has had American involvement because the Europeans either fail to take the initiative or simply do not have the resources. When we pulled out of Somalia, pretty much everyone left. When Bosnians and ethnic Albanians were being slaughtered we took the initiative. Many other countries like Haiti, Liberia, the Phillipines, Columbia, Israel, etc. All rely on America for stability. There are also some countries who do wish they had American peacekeepers, but for one reason or the other they do not.

Plus I always read stories in the news and even posts on here about how UN forces are always getting their asses kicked and retreat or pull out, so they're obviously not a sensible alternative.

[Operation Ivy]

I like Ivy. He is cute. :D :oops: :oops: :D


Ive ruuun ruuuuunnnnnn for your life! save your ass

O i am :)

[-Max2-]

army cadet_ngcsu wrote:


Plus there are the little things, like undermining the US in international trade agreements, unfair business tactics in the Boeing vs. Airbus competition, opposing sanctions on genocidal Sudan, etc. etc.


Ever heard of Echelon ?


The American electronic surveillance system Echelon, currently under investigation by French prosecutors, is widely suspected of being deployed around the world, and particularly in Europe, as an instrument of economic espionage.

Echelon’s operations were first challenged by the European Parliament in September 1998 when MEPs accused the network of “violating the privacy of communications by non-Americans, including European governments, companies and citizens.”

Among the contracts believed to have been lost as a result of the Echelon operation are a sale of Airbus airliners to Saudi Arabia in 1994, and a Thomson-CSF weapons deal with Brazil the same year. The alleged beneficiaries were the US firms Boeing and Raytheon.

Source: http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/20000703echelafpfr.htm

:|

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I seriously doubt the National Security Agency (NSA) is sending anonymous letters or prank phone calls to Microsoft or McDonald's regarding corporate information. I would hope that the NSA would have more daunting tasks to take care of, especially in this day and age.

Besides, from what I hear there is a thriving "spy" industry in the corporate world. Apparantly there are all kinds of people for hire to steal information and even get hired at corporations and turn right around and tell the competitor what is going on.

[Mark Sman]

Let me help out you guys from the EU before you have to heap even more half-assed BS insults on the US.

Noone in the US gives damn. Do whatever you want with the EU. Its your land, your deal, your people, and we don't give a flying duck.

[Kampfbaer]

The EU is a great thing!!!!! :D

In former times for example Germany and France went to war over territory in Elsaß-Lothringen.

Nowadays it doesn't matter to which country a certain territory belongs, because anyone can work and live where he or she wants! There is no more reason for war. The same goes for former german territories in Poland or so.

The main problem of the EU is that the EU-parliament is too weak and the EU-commission and the EU-Rat (lacking the english word) are too strong.
:(

The Europeans share common values and common culture (It' fun to explore the distinctions and the similarities!!!)

I'm a german but i could think of living in Ireland, the UK,the Netherlands or in a couple of years in Poland or Czech.... (I will have to learn Polísh as Berlin is just about 100 KM from Poland :roll: )

The EU member states will have to decide how far the Union will go. I look forward expactingly on the coming EU Constitution. :P

IMHO foreign policy and defense should be governed by the EU while things like interior or culture should be left to the Memberstates.

In my vision the EU will be quite similar in it's structure to the US in a couple of decades. This is the main reason, for me not wanting Turkey in
(different culture, different religion and so on)

But the EU shall have strong ties to turkey and give them a big bonus in terms of trade (but no membership).

Today EU excels the US in population and will rival the US in GDP in a decade or two.

Our people are well educated, our tech for example cars and planes are just as fine as the US or better!!!! :D


The US should not forget that the Europeans are the best friends they will get on this dustball!!!!!

Friends can disagree but they have a lot in common!!!!!!

We need each other!!!!!!!!!!!

People like the BNP or NPD in the UK, France and Germany are the ones who started wars in former times.

I'm very happy to live in a country which is surrounded by friendsamd i like the US although not the current government. :(

I dislike Chancelor Schroeder as well but it's democracy here and there and so i have to respect the votes!!!! :|

Just my thoughts. ;)

[-Max2-]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/apr2000/spy-a12.shtml


Noone in the US gives damn. Do whatever you want with the EU. Its your land, your deal, your people, and we don't give a flying duck.

Good. Then why are you posting here ?

[-Max2-]

Today EU excels the US in population and will rival the US in GDP in a decade or two.


Actually, the EU GDP is similar to the US GDP (more than €9 trillion, about 1/3 of world's GDP).

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

Amazing the need of several people to accuse France of everything.

Do you really think about fair behaviour of the USA ? What about the continuous economical war from the USA against Europe ? Is Europe making a one sided war to the almighty but always well intentioned USA ?

What about the use of Echelon (as it has been mentioned) and secret services not for the security of the country but for the interests of industrials ? What about more than doubling importation taxes on several French products ?

At and other level why dismiss the point about Suez ? During the Suez crisis the US used UN against UK, France and Israel who cooperated together (for France it was the occasion to destroy the Algerian ALN bases in Egyptia). But UN is only useful when it makes what people want probably.

Concerning the defense industries, the USA are making everything to destroy the EU armament industry, to avoid all forms of European concurrence ... General electric has bought the Leopard MBT factory in Spain, and the USA have bought most of the British armament industry. They had already 30% of BAe and it will probably (if not yet) be bought by Boeing or Lockheed Martin or an other company ... so it will be possible to bypass the Buy American Act and all the BAe technologies could be easily used in the US.

Everytime a European program is present in Europe the USA makes everything to take it down, by various pressions or by trying to impose a US made program if possible sold cheaper thanks to various political agreements/pressions ... who talked about fairness in real world ?
What about the US pressions to avoid absolutely that the ITER program (Internation Fusion Energy) takes place in Europe whereas the better conditions ? No they did everything to make the thing in Japan.
What about the US pressions to avoid absolutely that the EU Galileo system could be used for military purposes ? The USA don't want a Europe that has its own military GPS ... they prefer the vassality ... If the Galileo program is abandoned, Europe will lose more of its already limited autonomy in defense ... and that is what the US wants ... you are used to laugh about EU defense but do everything to weaken it, to stay the big boss everywhere. It is the same for the recon satellites etc. ... what a surprise when sometimes the Helios satellite shows that things are not always like on the US satellite photos.
The USA sell all around the world F15s and F16s sometimes for the price of a couple of nuts or thanks to various political "threats" or encouragement ... Everything what is possible to take the markets everywhere in order to gain presence and to sell other stuff in these countries later etc. ... Every country acts for its own interests ... France does that ... the USA do that ... just because we are not the followers of everything we are not your enemy !

Everywhere in the world the USA government is making always what he alone wants if it is ok for its own goals ... You perfectly now that all the countries behave always for their interests, for money or for strategical purposes and certainly not for establishing democracy or whatever crap. The US government makes an economical war to Europe, to France ... and Europe answers but with far less means. Personnaly I find incredible that the almighty USA see themselves as the aggrieved party, but this is the fact. Sometimes perception is more important than reality.

If you feel France is your enemy look for example at some of your 'best friends' then ... Pakistan, Saudi Arabia ... from where were the 9/11 terrorists again ? and from where was the money that financed the whole operations against the USA ? The USA sold billions of weapons to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia ... to the last one you sold and are selling not some poor stuff but M1 Abrams, AH-64 Apache, F-15 fighter bombers, missiles etc.
Pakistan makes as if they would fight against terrorism but before each operation it seems they just tell Al Qaida "warning we are coming" ... It has been proven that Pakistan had sold missile and nuclear technologies to North Korea, Iran, Lybia ... You sold also for billions high-tech weapons to Egyptia for example ...
Remember once you armed Iran and suddenly it became an enemy of the USA and an islamist state ... Are you really sure this will never happen in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Egyptia ? Especially in these two first ones the anti-US feeling and the presence of islamists are really strong and present everyday ... Is it really to sell such technology to the theocratical, stone-aged and fundamentalist Saudi-Arabia where there are so many anti-US people ? Would you swear that these countries you fed with high tech weapons will never used these weapons you ? I would not.

But it seems to be an obsession to depict France as THE ennemy ... very logical ... our small country is probably the USA's enemy n°1, a big threat ! :) We have little influence and we are a little country but you just like spitting on us.
You are right stay with your good friends ... the same who are behind 9/11, who hide terrorists, who finance so many terrorists movements all around the world, these countries full of islamists for which the USA are the big devil ... and call France your ugliest enemy that's right.

---------

More generally, not answering a specific point of that topic, I have already heard so many weird things on forums like this one ... And I am so fed up with several inventions especially the two following ones. I use this occasion to post about them.

NUMBER 1 : France would have sold weapons to the Iraqis in order to kill US soldiers during Gulf War 2 ...

Nothing was sold to Iraq since before the Gulf war n°1 and if you consider the nations who participated arming Iraq you can look at all western countries, China, Russia etc. and USA is at good place ... because Iraq was fighting against the fundamentalist Iran ... which itself was armed before by the USA.
Are you like those Polish soldiers claiming they had found French "2003" AA missiles ??? Because they couldn't read that it was an Iraqi inspection date on a missile whose production has been completely stopped 15 years ago ?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/2137676

The fact that France sold weapons to Iraq to kill GI's is pure propaganda and stupid assessment. All western countries and at first place the USA sold weapons to Iraq for its war against the integrist Iran of Khomeiny and it stopped in 1990 ... at least for the western countries probably not for China and Russia.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt4-article_7-eng

Chirac as well as members of the Bush team has been involved in that.
On 20th december 1983 for example, Donald Rumsfeld (Reagan's government) has met Saddam Hussein for a military cooperation contract of several billions dollars.
In 1986, Chirac (he was Prime Minister) approved weapons deliveries to Iraq (Mirage F1, AuF-1 artillery pieces ...).
In fact about 465 companies are involved and 1/3rd of them are German which is the bigger contributor to the chemical/biological program with the USA. The USA allowed Iraq to obtain bacterial strains to produce biological weapons and different chemicals that have been used in 1988 in Halabja (this has been related in Newsweek in The New York Times also). It is realpolitik, but everybody seems to have forgotten it ! It is now just so easy to invent stupid stories about France hu !?
France helped building a nuclear plant which has been destroyed by the IAF.
Until 1990 at least, Saddam Hussein has been widely supported by the USA (Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Gorge Bush senior) because he was an ally against Iran and a valuable commercial partner. In 1991 Saddam Hussein became a big threat (after 8 years of war against Iran) and now you say that France allow Iraq to acquire weapons ? I think it is a very reduced point of view, France yes and many others so stop telling such stupid things !

During the first Gulf War when France sent around 20000 men to participate to the operations we also gave the electronical codes to counter/disable the French built exocets or AA missiles ... forgot that also probably ... and yes we too had to face our own weapons ...

Look around the world to what are making ALL the countries before giving morale lessons and putting France in the stocks.

Weapons that killed French troops were provided to the Viet-Minh by the USA at the beginning of the Indochina war, they supported Ho Chi Minh to weaken the French influence in this part of the world etc. Just after WW2 UK and USA made everything to destroy the remaining French colonial empire ... until they realized that in Indochina it was not anymore a colonial war but a war against Communism.

------------

NUMBER 2 : posts about French weapons sold especially to Argentina to kill British soldiers during the Falklands war ... every means possible as usual to depict the French as the bad guys.

It's very convenient to accuse France for being responsible for the deaths of British soldiers isn't it ?
We sold only 5 Super-Etendards to Argentina and they had only 5 operationnal missiles ... At the outbreak of the conflict we stopped all the deliveries and help ... the Argentinan pilots and technicians were even not completely formed to use the missiles and the aircrafts, they learned by themselves. They had also to cannibalise one aircraft to have spare parts.
Therefore only 2 Super-Etendards + Exocet attacks could be led and they sunk the Sheffield destroyer and the Atlantic conveyor, a transport ship ...
These peope forgot easily to mention that the Argentinian army had also 60 A-4P/Q Skyhawks (29 destroyed) [USA], 9 B-62 Camberra (2 destroyed) [UK], Chinook and Huey helicopters [US], that there marine infantry landed with LVTP-7s [US], Type 42 destroyers and an aircraft carrier [UK] etc.

The Skyhawks and their US made Mk82 bombs sunk or hit the Coventry destroyer, the Ardent and Antilop frigates and the LST Sir Galahad ... Does that mean that the USA are the ennemy of the UK ? No that would be totally stupid ... but for France it is double standard as usually ...
The Argentinian soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas used FAL assault rifles like the British soldiers ..... They used also British built SAMs againt the British Sea Harriers (Blowpipe - responsible for the loss of ine Sea Harrier - and Tigercat) ... And ???? But well as usual several people just like every pretext to jump on the French ...

After the big successes of the Mirage III in Israel against the MIGs in 1967 and 1973 (see note), Argentinia wanted to buid about 100 Mirage III under license but this never happened and they bought 17 Mirage III EA and 3 Mirage III DA from 1970 to 1980, before the battle of the Falklands.
They were equiped with Matra R-530 radar guided missiles and Sidewinder AIM-9B IR missiles later replaced by the French equivalent the Matra Magic I. The Mirage IIIEA flow 57 sorties but there use by the Argentinians was really awful. It was a high speed, high altitude, all-weather interceptor thought to use its radar missiles. The Argentinians engaged them at low/medium altitude in dogfight against the Harrier which were more agile and also equiped with the last latest AIM-9L missiles.
The Argentinian HQ generally didn't allow the use of the radar-guided weapons in order to increase the range (Argentina is quite far away) and wanted a visual ID of the targets. From the 20 Mirage III, 2 were destroyed thanks to AIM-9L missiles.
Israel developped a copy of the 1967's versions of the Mirage 5 under the name IAI Nesher. Unlike the Mirage IIIE (high altitude all-weather interceptor) it lacked good radar capabilities and was rather a crude fighter/bomber.
Dassault had developed the Mirage 5 at the request of the Israelis. When the French government prevented the aircraft from being delivered to Israel and cut off support for the Israeli's existing Mirage IIICJ fleet, the Israelis simply produced the Mirage 5 themselves without a license, using manufacturing specs obtained by Israeli intelligence. There is an elaborate cloak-and-dagger story behind this exercise that doesn't quite eliminate the suspicion that the Israelis were discreetly helped by Dassault in this effort, with the French government turning a blind eye to the whole matter.
The first Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Nesher prototype flew in September 1969, with production deliveries to the Hey'l Ha'Avir beginning in 1972. These aircraft performed well during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, claiming over a hundred kills including many MIG-21s.
39 of these aircrafts were refurbished and exported to Argentina in 1978 under the name "Dagger". The Argentinians received 35 "Dagger A" single-seat fighters and 4 "Dagger B" two-seat trainers. They lost 9 of them if I remember well due to AIM-9L missiles.

The Argentinian lost in total about 100 aircrafts and helicopters.

One notable thing not to forget is that the French Air Force sent its latest Mirage IIIE versions in an "agressor" squadron to train the British pilots before their engagement against the Argentinians. At first all the Harriers were virtually "shot down". I guess the French training was of some use too.
The French Mirage IIIEs were not sent to UK they trained the British pilots on the northern coast of France in aerial engagements.

Read for example "La Guerre des Malouines" by Charles Maisonneuve, Pierre Razoux
Collection : Docavia - ISBN : 2914205031

A nice website in French about the Falklands :
http://www.rindzunski.com/or/presentation.htm
http://www.rindzunski.com/or/aviation/avion.htm

Here too they mention that French Mirage III and French Super Etendard aircrafts participated to the British training. They simulated attacks against the British Task Force heading for the Falklands while it was close to Brest, both to train the British pilots and the ship commanders to these aircrafts.

One could also have mentioned that the Argentinians too suffered from French missile technology. The Wasp helicopter from the Endurance patrol ship fired French AS.12 missiles against the Argentinian Santa Fe submarine for example.

--------------

It makes me also smile when one talks about French arrogance ... One has to be extremely cautious when using sentences like "the supreme example of the arrogant Frenchman". I wonder if you have ever thought what some other nations think about "the typical arrogant American, British", and so on and so forth. Arrogance is nobody's monopoly after all ... in several threads I have seen arrogance, insults and people just entering in a thread to shout their hate because they simply dislike other's opinions or want or because the subject disturbs them and their aim is to cause a disturbance.
The key, sadly, is ignorance. Ignorance on both sides of the Atlantic. Most of those hate-mongers know nothing about the people they insul and especially about their History. The media is also at fault. The European media's behaviour in the last yeasr or so has been incredibly irresponsible. I have heard reporters putting Bush on the same level as Saddam, without any disclaimer .... but the media in the USA were not more intelligent. I am afraid of what the fruits will be of the hate people are currently sowing here in Europe or in the USA ... and with the so many country bashing topics using every single pretext to depict France as the bad guy I personnaly feel what are the results.

It is sad but true that there has always been a streak of intolerance in the American psyche toward any nation or group that challenges their perceptions of or standing in the world. Perhaps it flows from the sense of American exceptionalism that existed even prior to the American Revolution. The American military and economic pre-eminence in the world after WWII, and particularly since 1990, has unfortunately magnified this tendency. It manifests itself in a number of ways, and right now one of the targets of this vitriol is France. Of course, the boorish anti-Gallic views are far from universal.
Americans, for reasons I still don't fully comprehend, became angry when France did not support the USA in the UN Security Council with regards to the use of force against Iraq before the end of the inspector's work. This caused something of a national temper tantrum, with US people throwing around childish insults and rhetoric because they didn't get their way, pooring wine on the street, changing names etc. A sort of "we don't need France's help anyway" attitude grew out of this, with justification provided by citing France's military failures and distorting History to make the French look like the worst kind of cowards. The anti-French community didn't want to believe that France might have a legitimate reason for not joining the "coalition" in Iraq "Gulf War 2", so they comforted themsleves with the thought that it was because the French were too afraid of losing to fight.
I watched with great disgust as all of this played out, sometimes laughing to see the lengths some people went to in trying to make France look bad. Don't think I'm criticizing ALL the people who were critical of France's position on the Iraq debate, I was rather in favour of the war despite the fact that it was totally illegal in regard of the world legislation. I listened respectfully to those who had real arguments to put forward, but I have nothing but contempt for the larger proportion that simply engaged in mudslinging. Most of these attacks against France are simply ignorant and distorted views of History. I only hope that the next time people in the US want to criticize the actions of another country they can do it in a more mature manner.

The US are a big country, with a lot of people. You would have no trouble finding US internet groups where you would be flamed for not believing (a) Jews run the world, (b) the CIA sells crack cocaine to black youngsters, (c) Hillary Clinton personally pulled the trigger on Vince Foster, (d) the moon landing was a Hollywood phony, and/or (e) any other theory you can think of. That said, the issue of anti-French feeling is a complex one.
Much of the anti-French feeling is actually a reaction. Not to the real French, but to perceptions of the French. I would be willing to bet that if you took a public opinion poll in the US and asked "what do you think the French feel about Americans", the vast majority would check the box marked "They hate us", "they think we are boorish barbarians", etc. This is not recent, I am sure the poll results would not have seen a change in at least 40 years.
As one aspect, French opinion as represented in the US is drawn almost exclusively from the leftist intelligentsia. Anytime the US press wants a scathing criticism of America, they almost always go to the French press. I have the feeling US media focus only on the anti-US part of several French media, and that they do it at will, they never present the whole spectrum. There was even a lot of coverage given to that book last year that alleged that the Pentagon portion of 9/11 was actually a CIA plot. Of course, there are probably militia movements in the USA that believe the same thing, but nobody pays any attention to them. If it comes from an apparently respected member of the French intelligentsia, it gets covered. In the USA I guess since Hoover's "witch hunt" you have no more really strong left wing people and therefore not the issues with such kind of people.
This book : "L'Effroyable Imposture" was a worldwide bestseller and has been written by Thierry Meyssan who leads a small leftist group called "réseau Voltaire" (not esspecially "recognized" here). It is clear that it is a pitiful imposture and this thesis has almost no more audience in France out from some left wing groups totally anti-USA. This thesis has been contradicted by many French aviation and defense specialists as well as by newspapers. It is a left wing group that wanted to make publicity for itself, it is simply a kind of huge hoax and recognized like this. He is not what I would called a respected member of the French intelligentsia ... many people write books but that should not enable them a wide audience. if the US media have chosen only to present such examples about France it is rather comprehensive that people have gone mad. I didn't say there weren't stupid French people but it is not a propaganda fully and volunteerly supported by the government like in the US. In France there are some stupid individuals and the left extremists and the foreign media seem only to care about them but there were no government members calling for reprisals, no deputy calling for things like bringing back all the WWII US graves in France or boycotting all French products and no Condoleeza Rice yelling for reprisals by "France has to pay" ... And one has to say that there are also anti-USA people in Belgium, Germany (were a minister said that Bush is like Hitler !) or even in Canada. But everything seems always to be focused on France as I see the things in several US media. We are said to be traitors and on the same time several "allies" like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are clearly helping terrorists movements !!! Clearly there are the same kind of people on both side of the Atlantic like a famous newspaper in the USA that edited a disgusting pamphlet of our national hymn written by William Kristol, I guess no US citizen would have liked such a thing. Don't call French people childish after things like that.

I really think the portion of the spectrum of French opinion that is repeated in the USA is a rather narrow one, and it is almost invariably anti-American. Thus, in the American mind, anything nasty said about the French is simply "pay-back" for decades of contempt and condescension flowing from France ???

Another is the role of Hollywood, particularly television. Once in a while they need a character to announce that Americans are boorish and ignorant. They invariably go one of two routes. If they want to convey the exasperated, but loving, parent regarding a wayward child, they use an English actor. If they want the comments to be mean and cutting, they use an actor with a (usually terrible) French accent. The perception is not reality, of course and you will meet friendly, honest, forthright, pleasant, intelligent, and very helpful French people. Reminds me also the Master & Commander movie from Peter Weir ... surprisingly the enemy is not an American ship like in the book but a French ship.

We could study long list of US interventions all around the world for a while in a pure satyrical / distorted manner like it has been so many times made for French History but for me such kind of discussion is just non sense and I don't feel the need or the right to judge ...

Everybody knows that governments act for their countries, not for human rights or something like that, don't tell me it is for democracy or something like that ... everything is realpolitic, lead by France, by the USA or by other countries. It depends what are the views, the goals and the interests of these nations. My point is that Franco-American relations should be viewed in this larger context, and we should understand that France and the United States have always had different priorities that flow from geopolitical reality and have little, if anything, to do with how the citizens of each country view each other.

Regards,

David

[Kitsune]

Germany (were a minister said that Bush is like Hitler !)

Nice post, but that was uncalled for. It is not true.

(You are referring to Herta Däubler Gmelin. In a moment thought to be informal she said something like "this Iraq-WMD thing is most probably pretext, that is an old trick even Hitler did use." Thats not exactly the same as to say Bush is like Hitler. It is what is typically called a brainfart. Anyway an audio recorder was running, and that ended her career as justice secretary. Nixon made the same mistake, only he said much worse things...)

Leave Germany out of this.

[David Lehmann]

You are right I did not remind exactly what she said while writing my long post at 4 AM :
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/21/world/main522862.shtml

During the mud-fight about Iraq German most-people's position was like Belgian, French an other ones. And my post is not about Germany AFAIK thus I don't understand the aim of your last sentence.

Regards,

David

[David Lehmann]

Interesting reading also part about the US view of the French role in the EU, NATO etc. ...

http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/comm/events/20030512panel_1.pdf

http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/comm/events/20030512panel_2.pdf

from this website : http://www.brook.edu/fp/cusf/events/20030512cusf.htm

Regards,

David

[szr]

EU makes USA nervous - that's good :P
No Ami would ever admit it, but oh well ...

Lance makes France nervous :O

[Operation Ivy]

Why should we be scared, China will probly be our problem in the years to come, u guys wont come for a little while after that ;)

[Kilgor]

All western countries and at first place the USA sold weapons to Iraq for its war against the integrist Iran of Khomeiny and it stopped in 1990 ... at least for the western countries probably not for China and Russia.


Apart from the commerical aircraft which were later taken over by the military, please provide a list of the arms that were sold to saddam by the USA ?


The USA allowed Iraq to obtain bacterial strains to produce biological weapons and different chemicals that have been used in 1988 in Halabja (this has been related in Newsweek in The New York Times also).

No, this is a lie that has been accepted as truth. The anthrax strains were givern to iraq for medical use for the culture of vaccines, and not weapons. Any country in the world can ask the US for these strains so that medicine and cures can be made. Its more of your propaganda that calls those strains for weapons use only.


Weapons that killed French troops were provided to the Viet-Minh by the USA at the beginning of the Indochina war, they supported Ho Chi Minh to weaken the French influence in this part of the world etc. Just after WW2 UK and USA made everything to destroy the remaining French colonial empire

What ****ing bull**** ! rofl Why not do some research and see how much US tax payers money was given to prop up (and in vain) your little colony in indochina. It was billions ! Now you tell us that somehow the US and UK were out to get you ??! Get real mate ! Another sign of a typical ungrateful frenchman.


Americans, for reasons I still don't fully comprehend, became angry when France did not support the USA in the UN Security Council with regards to the use of force against Iraq before the end of the inspector's work. This caused something of a national temper tantrum, with US people throwing around childish insults and rhetoric because they didn't get their way, pooring wine on the street, changing names etc.

Its very simple. After the first gulf war, France was given a very lucrative choice of iraqi oil contracts. France also exported alot of goods to iraq and also had a massive outsanding debt owed. There was a reason france said no to war, and it was all self centred. Yet we hear your politicans give us the moral high ground about how war is awful.

[szr]

Why should we be scared, China will probly be our problem in the years to come, u guys wont come for a little while after that ;)

$2.00 says the EU and China ally and declare war on us in the next 45 years. >_<

[obd]

wow, just checked into this forum and read Commander Cools vomit...I admit Im a bit late but I mean come on........Commander Cool: I know Michigan is the northern equivilant of Florida (the most ****ed up state in the US) but your bull**** about preserving "white Europe" and "screw multi racial societies" is the biggest load of Nazi crap I have ever heard.........

Based on your arguments, each state of the United States should say "**** the federal government" and becomes its own independent nation too right???......Let me guess, you wish the south had preserved slavery and think the Civil War (American) was about "states rights" and "preservation of white way of life" instead of about preserving a corrupt system of making profit that used other human beings as slaves............

Fact is, each member nation gives up a degree of its sovereignty for extensive economic and security benefits.........just the same as each state of the United States gives up a degree of its autonomy ot the federal government in order to become a part of the union, something much greater than itself........

Let me guess Commander Cool: you think all "dark skinned folks" should be kicked out of Europe, all Mexicans should leave America etc etc etc.........Hate to break it to you asshole, but America was founded by immigrants and Europe is vastly a nation full of immigrants......People move around dumb ****....Who the hell are you to stop them? I guess you would rather have them all fighting eachother in endless wars so that they could each protect thier own cultural "unity"....Your rhetoric smacks of racism and bigotry.......

[Operation Ivy]

Why should we be scared, China will probly be our problem in the years to come, u guys wont come for a little while after that ;)

$2.00 says the EU and China ally and declare war on us in the next 45 years. >_<

i say bring it on

[obd]

Commander Cool, you arnt living in the right times my man......I think your a little hitler youth nazi that was somehow born too late and in the wrong country......If only you have been around in Germany 1930-1940 you would have made an excellent mass murderer, rober, and rapist..............

Hitler would have been proud...Oh well, you can tell him all about your "white Europe" ideas when you meet him in hell........

Whats funny is that if I had to guess your religion I'd say you were a Christian.....It always amazes me how the best way to tell some persons religion is to just ask yourself "Now, which religion does this persons actions and statements go most against" and sure enough 9 times out of 10 that will yield you the religion they claim to follow........With that in mind, your most definately a Christian, because you are about as far away from the teachings and actions of Christ as you could possibly be.........

[budanski]

I am sick of living in the EU.

I'd so much rather live in a democratic country where the president gets elected with 500,000 less votes than his opponent thanks to the votes of the state his brother governs.

And then, he becomes president, just like his father, or just like in a kingdom.
The media conducted two independant studies (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/ballotcount010403.html) after the elections and go figure, Bush was still the winner with even more uncounted votes. Still delusional? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1190222.stm) Heres the second finding (http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/fl/index.asp).

[Shadow]

These Eastern Euro countries are now 99% ethnically pure and have a unique culture that needs to be protected,

ROFL
One thing that the EU does is to protect European culutre.:P
So STFU if you don't know ****.
Everyday i meet US citizens who perfactly fit my view that they are ignorant and don't know **** about what is going on outside the US.That's very sad ...


the American states were all composed of the same people, who had the same culture, the same religion, the same values, the same everything
rofl

[DaMasta!]

Commander cool may wrong about certain things, but he has a point. EU wont survive next 30 years. Britan and some other countries will say NO to european constitution, it will be beginning of an end.

[seventy6er]

Wrong; in the coming european constitution, the population base gives the number of votes at the parliament, hence the problem with the possible arrival of Turkey which has the most numerous population.



Germany has the biggest pop. in Europe. Followed by Turkey, France, Italy and the UK

[David Lehmann]

All western countries and at first place the USA sold weapons to Iraq for its war against the integrist Iran of Khomeiny and it stopped in 1990 ... at least for the western countries probably not for China and Russia.


Apart from the commerical aircraft which were later taken over by the military, please provide a list of the arms that were sold to saddam by the USA ?


The USA allowed Iraq to obtain bacterial strains to produce biological weapons and different chemicals that have been used in 1988 in Halabja (this has been related in Newsweek in The New York Times also).

No, this is a lie that has been accepted as truth. The anthrax strains were givern to iraq for medical use for the culture of vaccines, and not weapons. Any country in the world can ask the US for these strains so that medicine and cures can be made. Its more of your propaganda that calls those strains for weapons use only.


Weapons that killed French troops were provided to the Viet-Minh by the USA at the beginning of the Indochina war, they supported Ho Chi Minh to weaken the French influence in this part of the world etc. Just after WW2 UK and USA made everything to destroy the remaining French colonial empire

What f*** bull**** ! rofl Why not do some research and see how much US tax payers money was given to prop up (and in vain) your little colony in indochina. It was billions ! Now you tell us that somehow the US and UK were out to get you ??! Get real mate ! Another sign of a typical ungrateful frenchman.


Americans, for reasons I still don't fully comprehend, became angry when France did not support the USA in the UN Security Council with regards to the use of force against Iraq before the end of the inspector's work. This caused something of a national temper tantrum, with US people throwing around childish insults and rhetoric because they didn't get their way, pooring wine on the street, changing names etc.

Its very simple. After the first gulf war, France was given a very lucrative choice of iraqi oil contracts. France also exported alot of goods to iraq and also had a massive outsanding debt owed. There was a reason france said no to war, and it was all self centred. Yet we hear your politicans give us the moral high ground about how war is awful.

Hello Kilgor,

As you see yourself the question of American weapons in the hands of the Viet Minh between 1945 and 1950 makes not more sense than when it is talked about France feeding Iraq with weapons to kill GI's. In both cases weapons had been delivered far sooner and in a totally different context, but in one case distorted History is ok, why ?
Ho Chi Minh and the Vietminh had excellent relations with the USA and OSS until end of 1945. At this time the US enters into a deal with France to supply the French forces in Vietnam with arms, vehicles, and relief equipment. The Vietminh view this as a US endorsement of French reconquest of Vietnam. And thus begins the split between the Vietminh and the USA. On September 26, 1945, Lieutenant Colonel Dewey, head of the OSS in Vietnam, is mistaken for a French soldier and killed by the Vietminh.
During WW2, the Viet Minh operated from its bases in China and, supported and equipped by the Allies (mainly via the OSS). But the Viet Minh weapons were mainly former Japanese ones.
The USA supplied weapons to the Chinese Kuomintang Army and due to various traffics many ended later in communist hands. An other source is US weapons smuggled in via boat or airplane from the Philippines. At the end of WW2 the OSS send weapons (and advisors) to the Viet-Minh in order to fight the Japanese but the amount of weapons from that origin is probably marginal. Later these weapons were indeed in the guerilla to kill French soldier. But stretching that to say that USA are responsible for the killing of French soldier is rather stupid, as it is when someone says that there are French weapons sent by France in Iraq to kill GI's.

------------

Concerning the arming of Iraq, before 1991, when it made sense to fight against the Iranian Mollahs many countries/companies can be involved.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt4-article_7-eng

For example these companies were listed by "Die Tageszeitung" :
http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.nf/textdruck

Legend used in this list: A = nuclear program, B = bioweapons program, C = chemical weapons program, R = rocket program, K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Defense Ministry and the building of military plants.

USA
1 Honeywell (R, K)
2 Spectra Physics (K)
3 Semetex (R)
4 TI Coating (A, K)
5 Unisys (A, K)
6 Sperry Corp. (R, K)
7 Tektronix (R, A)
8 Rockwell (K)
9 Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)
10 Finnigan-MAT-US (A)
11 Hewlett-Packard (A, R, K)
12 Dupont (A)
13 Eastman Kodak (R)
14 American Type Culture Collection (B)
15 Alcolac International (C)
16 Consarc (A)
17 Carl Zeiss - U.S (K)
18 Cerberus (LTD) (A)
19 Electronic Associates (R)
20 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)
21 Bechtel (K)
22 EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. (R)
23 Canberra Industries Inc. (A)
24 Axel Electronics Inc. (A)

In addition to these 24 companies home-based in the USA are 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises which conducted their weapons business with Iraq from within the US.
Also designated as suppliers for Iraq's arms programs (A, B, C & R) are the US Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade and Agriculture as well as the Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories.

CHINA
1 China Wanbao Engineering Company (A, C, K)
2 Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd (K)
3 China State Missile Company (R)

FRANCE
1 Commissariat à l'Energie Atomique (A)
2 Sciaky (A)
3 Thomson CSF (A, K)
4 Aerospatiale and Matra Espace (R)
5 Cerbag (A)
6 Protec SA (C)
7 Thales Group (A)
8 Societé Général pour les Techniques Nouvelles (A)

UNITED KINGDOM
1 Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)
2 C. Plath-Nuclear (A)
3 Endshire Export Marketing (A)
4 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)
5 MEED International (A, C)
6 Walter Somers Ltd. (R)
7 International Computer Limited (A, K)
8 Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)
9 Ali Ashour Daghir (A)
10 International Military Services (R) (im Besitz des brit. Verteidigungsministeriums)
11 Sheffield Forgemasters (R)
12 Technology Development Group (R)
13 International Signal and Control (R)
14 Terex Corporation (R)
15 Inwako (A)
16 TMG Engineering (K)
17 XYY Options, Inc (A)

RUSSIA
1 Soviet State Missile Co. (R)
2 Niikhism (R)
3 Mars Rotor (R)
4 Livinvest (R)
5 Russia Aviatin Trading House (K)
6 Amsar Trading (K)

JAPAN
Fanuc (A)
Hammamatsu Photonics KK (A)
NEC (A)
Osaka (A)
Waida (A)

NETHERLANDS
Melchemie B.V. (C)
KBS Holland B.V. (C)
Delft Instruments N.V. (K)

BELGIUM
Boehler Edelstahl (A)
NU Kraft Mercantile Corporation (C)
OIP Instrubel (K)
Phillips Petroleum (C)
Poudres Réunies Belge SA (R)
Sebatra (A)
Space Research Corp. (R)

SPAIN
Donabat (R)
Treblam (C)
Zayer (A)

SWEDEN
ABB (A)
Saab-Scania (R)

I don't know if this listing if totally reliable or not, the aim of my intervention is not to point countries or companies but to show that it is totally biased and not honest when spreading info about France selling weapons to Iraq ... without telling people that it was only before 1991 and that many western countries at that time supported Iraq which was used as a blockade against the expansion wills of the fundamentalist Iran.
Concerning anthrax for example common, it is the same thing than selling a civilian nuclear program to a dictator, you know he will try to derive it from its initiall function.

This 'France sold weapons to Iraq' is commonly used to justify hate by several people. I am French and I am not engaged in an anti-American rant but obviously since I am French I am always 'guilty' of something in the eyes of several people.

About the Iraqi debt concerning France for example it is only 3 billions dollars out of 120 billions ...

--------------
As a footnote the French were involved during the 1991 Gulf war :

About a total of 20,000 men :
Army : 12,000 men in the "Daguet" division
Navy : 6800 men and 34 vessels
Air Force : 1200 men and 60 planes

The French ground contribution to the Coalition, designated Division Daguet, was essentially the 6e DLB (6th light armoured division) much reinforced. The first to arrive at Yanbu, Saudi Arabia, in September of 1990 the 2nd REI, the 1st REC, and most of the 6eme REG provided, with the 1st Spahis. Only 44 MBTs but many light AFVs like the AMX10RC. This division was the western wing of the attack.

- 2e RIMa (2nd marine infantry regiment)
- 3e RIMa (3rd marine infantry regiment)
- CRAPs (Commandos d'action et de recherche en profondeur = deep ops cdo unit, about 120 men)
- 13e RDP (13rd Airborne Dragoon Regiment, recce special forces)
- 1e REC (1st foreign cavalry regiment)
- 2e REI (2nd foreign infantry regiment)
- 6e REG (6th foreign engineer regiment)
- 1e Spahis (1st Spahis regiment, recce)
- 1e RHP (1st airborne hussard regiment)
- 4e Régiment de Dragons (4th Dragoons regiment, MBTs)
- 17e RGP (17th airborone engineer regiment)
- 35e RAP (35th airborne artillery regiment)
- 11e RAM (11th marine infantry regiment)
- 6e RCS (6th commanding and support regiment)
- 17e RCS (17th commanding and support regiment)
- 7e RPCS (6th airborne commanding and support regiment)
- 28e RT (28th signal regiment)

CRAPs and the 13e RDP operated behind enemy lines long before the attack. One team of the 13e RDP had been captured if I remember well.
Men of the 2e REI and 6e REG had penetrated 5 km into Iraq on the night of 22nd February to take "Natchez" an Iraqi post dominating their line of advance up an escarpment. Legionnaire sappers and the US 1/27th Engineers had built a track up the escarpment on the 23rd.

The French columns covering the Coalition left flank-punched through the Iraqi 45th Division with considerable ease, and took their objective, the town and airfield of AS Salman by morning of the 26th, some 3000 Iraqi prisoners were taken.
--------------

Best regards,

David

[perdurabo]

Wrong; in the coming european constitution, the population base gives the number of votes at the parliament, hence the problem with the possible arrival of Turkey which has the most numerous population.



Germany has the biggest pop. in Europe. Followed by Turkey, France, Italy and the UK
what about Ukraine and Russia? you know they are in Europe too (Ukraine even more than Turkey). How big pop has Italy? Poland and Spain has both around 40 000 000
daMasta lets hope not because EU is good for all europe except Belarus even Russia has profits from EU existance. If EU breaks up prabably we will se another thousands of tanks going in both direction on Polish soil. :(

[Pille1234]

Commander cool may wrong about certain things, but he has a point. EU wont survive next 30 years. Britan and some other countries will say NO to european constitution, it will be beginning of an end.
I agree with you, Britain will say no to the constitutuion. But that's not the end of the EU, it's only the end of the British membership. In fact that will strengthen the EU and will increase the capacity to act as union.

[The Walrus]

I wholeheartedly support the principles of the EU, and believe a united, integrated Europe will not kill national identity and culture, and will make life a lot easier and better for Europeans in general.
But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.

[perdurabo]

I wholeheartedly support the principles of the EU, and believe a united, integrated Europe will not kill national identity and culture, and will make life a lot easier and better for Europeans in general.
But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.
Yep thigs like production quotes or farmers dotations should be changed but no worry it will be changed it has to be or EU will break.

[cut]

Wrong; in the coming european constitution, the population base gives the number of votes at the parliament, hence the problem with the possible arrival of Turkey which has the most numerous population.



Germany has the biggest pop. in Europe. Followed by Turkey, France, Italy and the UK
what about Ukraine and Russia? you know they are in Europe too (Ukraine even more than Turkey). How big pop has Italy? Poland and Spain has both around 40 000 000
daMasta lets hope not because EU is good for all europe except Belarus even Russia has profits from EU existance. If EU breaks up prabably we will se another thousands of tanks going in both direction on Polish soil. :(

it depends on when they apply, even then Turkey applied before Poland and all of the other countries that joined recently.

Italy's population is about 50 mil. IFAIK

[perdurabo]

so place
1st Germany
2/3 France, UK
4 Italy
5/6 Spain, Poland

and whole Europe with Russia and Turkey
1,2 Russia, Turkey above 100
3 Germany 80
4,5 France, UK 60
6,7 italy ukraine ~50
8,9 Sapin, Poland ~40

??????

[Pille1234]

I wholeheartedly support the principles of the EU, and believe a united, integrated Europe will not kill national identity and culture, and will make life a lot easier and better for Europeans in general.

I'm happy to hear that, unfortunatly the majority of your fellow citizen see that different, at least that is what I read about it.


But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.
Agreed. I believe the constitution offers a great chance for deep changes.

[Freibier]

But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.
But the USA as it is, is so corrupt, warmongering, inefficient and internationally isolated that it is more or less doomed to failure unless a new president (Kerry) is introduced. :P

[DaMasta!]

Quote:

But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.

Agreed. I believe the constitution offers a great chance for deep changes.

Wrong, I`ve read constitution project, and it wont solve any problems.


The only chance for EU is to put some right-wing tough politician in charge
(someone like M. Tacher or Chris Patten).
The Portuges ex-communist in charge probably will fail to change anything, and UE will stay as it is WEAK.

[cut]

Quote:

But the EU as it is, is so corrupt, buearocratic, inneficient and distant that it is more or less doomed to failiure unless swift changes are introduced immedietaly.

Agreed. I believe the constitution offers a great chance for deep changes.

Wrong, I`ve read constitution project, and it wont solve any problems.


The only chance for EU is to put some right-wing tough politician in charge
(someone like M. Tacher or Chris Patten).
The Portuges ex-communist in charge probably will fail to change anything, and UE will stay as it is WEAK.

Bollocks! You can't tell that from reading the constitution, the way I see it the constitution allows the EU to work properly with the extra countries on board. Beyond that you can't tell whether it will solve, that we will see later. One thing is for sure, no new constitution leaves us worse off struggling with the inappropriate old system.

[DaMasta!]

Bollocks! You can't tell that from reading the constitution, the way I see it the constitution allows the EU to work properly with the extra countries on board. Beyond that you can't tell whether it will solve, that we will see later. One thing is for sure, no new constitution leaves us worse off struggling with the inappropriate old system.

Most important constitution section is about new voting system.
Now 4 countries with 35% of EU population can block any decision, wich makes changes almost imposible.

[ArmedPacifist]

Commander Cool is uncool!

Eat that bitch!


Deep down the EU scares the **** out of him, so naturally he would call upon a bunch of military forum users to overthrow that union so he can sleep better at night.

[cut]

Bollocks! You can't tell that from reading the constitution, the way I see it the constitution allows the EU to work properly with the extra countries on board. Beyond that you can't tell whether it will solve, that we will see later. One thing is for sure, no new constitution leaves us worse off struggling with the inappropriate old system.

Most important constitution section is about new voting system.
Now 4 countries with 35% of EU population can block any decision, wich makes changes almost imposible.

that assumes that these majority votes clash.

[perdurabo]

But DaMasta is right someone tough like M.Tacher would make EU strong put ewerything in right direction...

[cut]

But DaMasta is right someone tough like M.Tacher would make EU strong put ewerything in right direction...

Tony Blair? he's maggie thatcher prematurely reincarnated!

[perdurabo]

But DaMasta is right someone tough like M.Tacher would make EU strong put ewerything in right direction...

Tony Blair? he's maggie thatcher prematurely reincarnated!
nah france would be pissed off too much it must be person that moust of countries will like witch is hard to find :(

[Spanky]

A few facts about the EU. Brits pay attention.

Thirty Facts You Should Know About The EU (taken from the book 'England Our England' by Vernon Coleman)


1. The phrase European Economic Community was invented by Nazi Hermann Goerring. The phrase United States of Europe was invented by Adolf Hitler. (page 122).

2. Not one citizen in any of the 15 nations in the E.U. has ever been asked if they wanted to join the E.U. (page 15).

3. Every English taxpayer pays £450 a year for membership of the E.U. For every £1 England receives from the E.U. the English taxpayer must hand over £4.15 to the E.U. (page 19).

4. Joining the euro will cost every Englishman, Englishwoman and English child £650 in hard cash. (page 25)

5. Corrupt E.U. staff are immune from prosecution. (page 27)

6. Fraud costs the E.U. between £4 and £8 billion a year. (page 28).

7. The E.U. is planning a chemical testing programme which will involve pointlessly torturing and killing 50 million animals. The programme will be partly paid for with money contributed by English taxpayers. (page 28)

8. More than half of the world's most useful inventions since 1945 were made by Englishmen and Englishwomen. (page 29)

9. The European Union will shortly ban the sale of effective vitamin therapies (much to the delight and profit of large drug companies). (page 32)

10. The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U. (page 33)

11. The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. (page 33)

12. The Labour Government is trying to abolish trial by jury in England. They are doing this because the E.U. has told them they must. (page 35)

13. Members of Europol (Europe's new official police force) are armed and `immune from the law'. (page 35)

14. The E.U. spends £600 million a year telling English university students the value of England being part of the E.U. (page 36)

15. The E.U. banned firemen's' poles in English fire stations because bureaucrats in Brussels were worried that firemen might hurt themselves. The bureaucrats also felt that the poles might pose a hazard to blind and disabled firemen. (page 39)

16. The Labour Government's Regional Assemblies will mean the end of England. (page 39)

17. As a result of E.U. policies the average English family has to pay an extra £1,000 a year on food. (page 47)

18. The E.U. keeps files on people who might one day be suspected of doing something contrary to E.U. law. The E.U. keeps at least 56 different types of information about each suspect (including racial origins, religion and political affiliations). If you're reading this the chances are that Big Brother is watching you. (Page 47)

19. England has over £600 billion invested in pension savings - and has unfunded pension liabilities of £4,000 per head. But if England joins the euro English pension debts will rise to £30,000 a head. If we join the E.U. our pension savings will be handed over to the E.U. and shared out among E.U. countries whose citizens have not saved enough. England will have to take on part of the E.U.'s £1,200 billion pension debt. Your pension will be in peril. (Page 49)

20. England's oil reserves are worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'. (page 50)

21. The Government has handed England's £32 billion worth of gold and dollar reserves over to the E.U. (page 52)

22. The number of laws created by the E.U.'s bureaucrats in Brussels far exceeds the number of laws passed by England's parliament in its first 700 years. (page 64)

23. Duty free sales were abolished to make the E.U. look like one big country. (page 65).

24. The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. European courts and laws now take precedence over English courts and laws. (page 73)

25. If the E.U. has its way (and it will) the England cricket, football and rugby teams will disappear. (page 82)

26. The European Commission President wants to create an inner core of `fewer than 10' unelected, unaccountable vice presidents who will run the new Eurostate. (page 87)

27. The E.U. spends over £1 billion a year supporting the production of poor quality tobacco - which is too poisonous for sale in the E.U. but which must be `dumped' on undeveloped countries. Many Greek, Spanish and French farmers exist on these tobacco grants. (page 88)

28. The new E.U. army of 60,000 soldiers will soon replace the English army. The English army (and its traditions) will disappear. (page 97)

29. Every new E.U. law, directive and regulation must be translated into each of 11 official E.U. languages. By the year 2004 the E.U. will have 21 official languages and the E.U. will have to find tens of thousands of skilled and honest interpreters able to translate Estonian into Polish, Czech into Maltese, Dutch into Hungarian etc etc. There will be 420 possible interpreting combinations. The E.U. will become even more unwieldy than it already is. (page 121)

30. It will soon be illegal for England to withdraw from the E.U. If we join the euro it will be impossible to leave. (page 122).


Copyright Vernon Coleman 2003


'England Our England' is available from the shop on this site for £7.99

[cut]

A few facts about the EU. Brits pay attention.

Thirty Facts You Should Know About The EU (taken from the book 'England Our England' by Vernon Coleman)


1. The phrase European Economic Community was invented by Nazi Hermann Goerring. The phrase United States of Europe was invented by Adolf Hitler. (page 122).

2. Not one citizen in any of the 15 nations in the E.U. has ever been asked if they wanted to join the E.U. (page 15).

3. Every English taxpayer pays £450 a year for membership of the E.U. For every £1 England receives from the E.U. the English taxpayer must hand over £4.15 to the E.U. (page 19).

4. Joining the euro will cost every Englishman, Englishwoman and English child £650 in hard cash. (page 25)

5. Corrupt E.U. staff are immune from prosecution. (page 27)

6. Fraud costs the E.U. between £4 and £8 billion a year. (page 28).

7. The E.U. is planning a chemical testing programme which will involve pointlessly torturing and killing 50 million animals. The programme will be partly paid for with money contributed by English taxpayers. (page 28)

8. More than half of the world's most useful inventions since 1945 were made by Englishmen and Englishwomen. (page 29)

9. The European Union will shortly ban the sale of effective vitamin therapies (much to the delight and profit of large drug companies). (page 32)

10. The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U. (page 33)

11. The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. (page 33)

12. The Labour Government is trying to abolish trial by jury in England. They are doing this because the E.U. has told them they must. (page 35)

13. Members of Europol (Europe's new official police force) are armed and `immune from the law'. (page 35)

14. The E.U. spends £600 million a year telling English university students the value of England being part of the E.U. (page 36)

15. The E.U. banned firemen's' poles in English fire stations because bureaucrats in Brussels were worried that firemen might hurt themselves. The bureaucrats also felt that the poles might pose a hazard to blind and disabled firemen. (page 39)

16. The Labour Government's Regional Assemblies will mean the end of England. (page 39)

17. As a result of E.U. policies the average English family has to pay an extra £1,000 a year on food. (page 47)

18. The E.U. keeps files on people who might one day be suspected of doing something contrary to E.U. law. The E.U. keeps at least 56 different types of information about each suspect (including racial origins, religion and political affiliations). If you're reading this the chances are that Big Brother is watching you. (Page 47)

19. England has over £600 billion invested in pension savings - and has unfunded pension liabilities of £4,000 per head. But if England joins the euro English pension debts will rise to £30,000 a head. If we join the E.U. our pension savings will be handed over to the E.U. and shared out among E.U. countries whose citizens have not saved enough. England will have to take on part of the E.U.'s £1,200 billion pension debt. Your pension will be in peril. (Page 49)

20. England's oil reserves are worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'. (page 50)

21. The Government has handed England's £32 billion worth of gold and dollar reserves over to the E.U. (page 52)

22. The number of laws created by the E.U.'s bureaucrats in Brussels far exceeds the number of laws passed by England's parliament in its first 700 years. (page 64)

23. Duty free sales were abolished to make the E.U. look like one big country. (page 65).

24. The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. European courts and laws now take precedence over English courts and laws. (page 73)

25. If the E.U. has its way (and it will) the England cricket, football and rugby teams will disappear. (page 82)

26. The European Commission President wants to create an inner core of `fewer than 10' unelected, unaccountable vice presidents who will run the new Eurostate. (page 87)

27. The E.U. spends over £1 billion a year supporting the production of poor quality tobacco - which is too poisonous for sale in the E.U. but which must be `dumped' on undeveloped countries. Many Greek, Spanish and French farmers exist on these tobacco grants. (page 88)

28. The new E.U. army of 60,000 soldiers will soon replace the English army. The English army (and its traditions) will disappear. (page 97)

29. Every new E.U. law, directive and regulation must be translated into each of 11 official E.U. languages. By the year 2004 the E.U. will have 21 official languages and the E.U. will have to find tens of thousands of skilled and honest interpreters able to translate Estonian into Polish, Czech into Maltese, Dutch into Hungarian etc etc. There will be 420 possible interpreting combinations. The E.U. will become even more unwieldy than it already is. (page 121)

30. It will soon be illegal for England to withdraw from the E.U. If we join the euro it will be impossible to leave. (page 122).


Copyright Vernon Coleman 2003


'England Our England' is available from the shop on this site for £7.99

whatever happened to Britain? English army? what english army, this guy is a fool.

England oil reserves? What, those ones of the coast of Scotland?

I can go through these "facts" and disproove them one at a time if you want be to, but surely this BS is not worth the effort. Do you actually believe this? Are you a Brit spanky?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

A few facts about the EU. Brits pay attention.

Thirty Facts You Should Know About The EU (taken from the book 'England Our England' by Vernon Coleman)


1. The phrase European Economic Community was invented by Nazi Hermann Goerring. The phrase United States of Europe was invented by Adolf Hitler. (page 122).

2. Not one citizen in any of the 15 nations in the E.U. has ever been asked if they wanted to join the E.U. (page 15).

3. Every English taxpayer pays £450 a year for membership of the E.U. For every £1 England receives from the E.U. the English taxpayer must hand over £4.15 to the E.U. (page 19).

4. Joining the euro will cost every Englishman, Englishwoman and English child £650 in hard cash. (page 25)

5. Corrupt E.U. staff are immune from prosecution. (page 27)

6. Fraud costs the E.U. between £4 and £8 billion a year. (page 28).

7. The E.U. is planning a chemical testing programme which will involve pointlessly torturing and killing 50 million animals. The programme will be partly paid for with money contributed by English taxpayers. (page 28)

8. More than half of the world's most useful inventions since 1945 were made by Englishmen and Englishwomen. (page 29)

9. The European Union will shortly ban the sale of effective vitamin therapies (much to the delight and profit of large drug companies). (page 32)

10. The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U. (page 33)

11. The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. (page 33)

12. The Labour Government is trying to abolish trial by jury in England. They are doing this because the E.U. has told them they must. (page 35)

13. Members of Europol (Europe's new official police force) are armed and `immune from the law'. (page 35)

14. The E.U. spends £600 million a year telling English university students the value of England being part of the E.U. (page 36)

15. The E.U. banned firemen's' poles in English fire stations because bureaucrats in Brussels were worried that firemen might hurt themselves. The bureaucrats also felt that the poles might pose a hazard to blind and disabled firemen. (page 39)

16. The Labour Government's Regional Assemblies will mean the end of England. (page 39)

17. As a result of E.U. policies the average English family has to pay an extra £1,000 a year on food. (page 47)

18. The E.U. keeps files on people who might one day be suspected of doing something contrary to E.U. law. The E.U. keeps at least 56 different types of information about each suspect (including racial origins, religion and political affiliations). If you're reading this the chances are that Big Brother is watching you. (Page 47)

19. England has over £600 billion invested in pension savings - and has unfunded pension liabilities of £4,000 per head. But if England joins the euro English pension debts will rise to £30,000 a head. If we join the E.U. our pension savings will be handed over to the E.U. and shared out among E.U. countries whose citizens have not saved enough. England will have to take on part of the E.U.'s £1,200 billion pension debt. Your pension will be in peril. (Page 49)

20. England's oil reserves are worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'. (page 50)

21. The Government has handed England's £32 billion worth of gold and dollar reserves over to the E.U. (page 52)

22. The number of laws created by the E.U.'s bureaucrats in Brussels far exceeds the number of laws passed by England's parliament in its first 700 years. (page 64)

23. Duty free sales were abolished to make the E.U. look like one big country. (page 65).

24. The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. European courts and laws now take precedence over English courts and laws. (page 73)

25. If the E.U. has its way (and it will) the England cricket, football and rugby teams will disappear. (page 82)

26. The European Commission President wants to create an inner core of `fewer than 10' unelected, unaccountable vice presidents who will run the new Eurostate. (page 87)

27. The E.U. spends over £1 billion a year supporting the production of poor quality tobacco - which is too poisonous for sale in the E.U. but which must be `dumped' on undeveloped countries. Many Greek, Spanish and French farmers exist on these tobacco grants. (page 88)

28. The new E.U. army of 60,000 soldiers will soon replace the English army. The English army (and its traditions) will disappear. (page 97)

29. Every new E.U. law, directive and regulation must be translated into each of 11 official E.U. languages. By the year 2004 the E.U. will have 21 official languages and the E.U. will have to find tens of thousands of skilled and honest interpreters able to translate Estonian into Polish, Czech into Maltese, Dutch into Hungarian etc etc. There will be 420 possible interpreting combinations. The E.U. will become even more unwieldy than it already is. (page 121)

30. It will soon be illegal for England to withdraw from the E.U. If we join the euro it will be impossible to leave. (page 122).


Copyright Vernon Coleman 2003


'England Our England' is available from the shop on this site for £7.99

Hey Spanky there is no such thing as an English army, if your quoting Vernon Coleman verbatim then he is a mong. :roll:

[Pille1234]

30 reasons to call you stupid.
Well Spanky, I don't know if I should laugh or feel sorry.
My favourite is number 25, who cares for cricket or rugby anyway?

Oh and you forgot:
31) The EU will make you drive on the right side of the street.

[cut]

But DaMasta is right someone tough like M.Tacher would make EU strong put ewerything in right direction...

Tony Blair? he's maggie thatcher prematurely reincarnated!
nah france would be pissed off too much it must be person that moust of countries will like witch is hard to find :(

the french don't know him well, the thing about Blair is that he could get them on his side if he wanted to.

[Rantanplan]

A few facts about the EU. Brits pay attention.

Thirty Facts You Should Know About The EU (taken from the book 'England Our England' by Vernon Coleman)


1. The phrase European Economic Community was invented by Nazi Hermann Goerring. The phrase United States of Europe was invented by Adolf Hitler. (page 122).

2. Not one citizen in any of the 15 nations in the E.U. has ever been asked if they wanted to join the E.U. (page 15).

3. Every English taxpayer pays £450 a year for membership of the E.U. For every £1 England receives from the E.U. the English taxpayer must hand over £4.15 to the E.U. (page 19).

4. Joining the euro will cost every Englishman, Englishwoman and English child £650 in hard cash. (page 25)

5. Corrupt E.U. staff are immune from prosecution. (page 27)

6. Fraud costs the E.U. between £4 and £8 billion a year. (page 28).

7. The E.U. is planning a chemical testing programme which will involve pointlessly torturing and killing 50 million animals. The programme will be partly paid for with money contributed by English taxpayers. (page 28)

8. More than half of the world's most useful inventions since 1945 were made by Englishmen and Englishwomen. (page 29)

9. The European Union will shortly ban the sale of effective vitamin therapies (much to the delight and profit of large drug companies). (page 32)

10. The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U. (page 33)

11. The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. (page 33)

12. The Labour Government is trying to abolish trial by jury in England. They are doing this because the E.U. has told them they must. (page 35)

13. Members of Europol (Europe's new official police force) are armed and `immune from the law'. (page 35)

14. The E.U. spends £600 million a year telling English university students the value of England being part of the E.U. (page 36)

15. The E.U. banned firemen's' poles in English fire stations because bureaucrats in Brussels were worried that firemen might hurt themselves. The bureaucrats also felt that the poles might pose a hazard to blind and disabled firemen. (page 39)

16. The Labour Government's Regional Assemblies will mean the end of England. (page 39)

17. As a result of E.U. policies the average English family has to pay an extra £1,000 a year on food. (page 47)

18. The E.U. keeps files on people who might one day be suspected of doing something contrary to E.U. law. The E.U. keeps at least 56 different types of information about each suspect (including racial origins, religion and political affiliations). If you're reading this the chances are that Big Brother is watching you. (Page 47)

19. England has over £600 billion invested in pension savings - and has unfunded pension liabilities of £4,000 per head. But if England joins the euro English pension debts will rise to £30,000 a head. If we join the E.U. our pension savings will be handed over to the E.U. and shared out among E.U. countries whose citizens have not saved enough. England will have to take on part of the E.U.'s £1,200 billion pension debt. Your pension will be in peril. (Page 49)

20. England's oil reserves are worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'. (page 50)

21. The Government has handed England's £32 billion worth of gold and dollar reserves over to the E.U. (page 52)

22. The number of laws created by the E.U.'s bureaucrats in Brussels far exceeds the number of laws passed by England's parliament in its first 700 years. (page 64)

23. Duty free sales were abolished to make the E.U. look like one big country. (page 65).

24. The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. European courts and laws now take precedence over English courts and laws. (page 73)

25. If the E.U. has its way (and it will) the England cricket, football and rugby teams will disappear. (page 82)

26. The European Commission President wants to create an inner core of `fewer than 10' unelected, unaccountable vice presidents who will run the new Eurostate. (page 87)

27. The E.U. spends over £1 billion a year supporting the production of poor quality tobacco - which is too poisonous for sale in the E.U. but which must be `dumped' on undeveloped countries. Many Greek, Spanish and French farmers exist on these tobacco grants. (page 88)

28. The new E.U. army of 60,000 soldiers will soon replace the English army. The English army (and its traditions) will disappear. (page 97)

29. Every new E.U. law, directive and regulation must be translated into each of 11 official E.U. languages. By the year 2004 the E.U. will have 21 official languages and the E.U. will have to find tens of thousands of skilled and honest interpreters able to translate Estonian into Polish, Czech into Maltese, Dutch into Hungarian etc etc. There will be 420 possible interpreting combinations. The E.U. will become even more unwieldy than it already is. (page 121)

30. It will soon be illegal for England to withdraw from the E.U. If we join the euro it will be impossible to leave. (page 122).


Copyright Vernon Coleman 2003


'England Our England' is available from the shop on this site for £7.99

rofl rofl rofl

[Spanky]

Cut, yes I am a Brit. A brit that wants us out of the undemocratic corrupt EU. This is why.





Could Britain survive outside the EU?



There has for years now been a cynical and ruthless propaganda campaign to persuade us that Britain has no future outside Europe. This is nonsense. For example, take Switzerland. They ignored the encouragement of their Government and voted against joining the EU. But they have negotiated for themselves an excellent trade agreement - thereby putting a lie to the utterly false claim that no European country can possibly survive unless it becomes part of the EU.

The europhiles constantly argue that Britain would be ruined if she left Europe.

Oh, what porkies these people do tell.

As The Economist said recently: `...the idea that leaving (the EU) would be `economic suicide' is nonsense'.

Examine what would happen if Britain pulled up the Tunnel and stopped paying subs to the big EU in Brussels.

1. The EU would impose its external tariff on British exports to Europe. This would make very little difference to British companies - most of whose exports go outside Europe anyway. The World Trade Organisation restricts the EU to an external tariff of around 6% so the effect would, in any case, be quite small. (Britain would almost certainly be able to negotiate for itself a smaller tariff - in the way that Switzerland has. This would drive down the cost of leaving the EU still further.)

2. If outside the EU, Britain would, inevitably, be outside the euro. There would be an exchange rate between the pound and the euro. In the long run this could well be to Britain's advantage.

3. The external tariff on Britain's imports from outside the EU would disappear. Britain would probably gain more from this than it would lose from the imposition of a tariff on British exports to Europe.

4. A Britain outside the EU would be able to make special trading deals with other countries - such as those in the Commonwealth. This could be hugely advantageous.

5. Europhiles claim that if Britain left the EU then countries from outside Europe (such as Japan and America) would invest less. This is nonsense. Britain attracts more outside investment (known to economists as `Foreign Direct Investment') than other European countries because its labour market is still relatively unregulated. If it was outside the EU Britain could take advantage of its independence to reduce the number of regulations limiting foreign companies. EU regulations are already regarded as a minefield. Just ask some of the foreign companies who have had eurocrats leaping up and down all over them. Many would jump at the chance to invest in a less regulated part of Europe. The tariffs would be a small price to pay. Finally, even if FDI did fall, Britain would not necessarily lose since in an often irrational attempt to encourage foreign businesses (at the expense of British businesses) the British Government subsidises these investments. A subsidised outside investment may well not make money for the country!

The bottom line is that the British stand to lose nothing by leaving the EU.

If Britain left the EU it would leave behind an incompetent and power hungry bureaucracy which has consistently failed. If we left the EU they would not be able to do anything in revenge. Remember we have a trade deficit with the EU. (For example, we have a deficit of over £3 billion a year trade with Germany alone.) The EU countries desperately need our trade.

British politicians have supported the EU, lied and deceived the British voters and signed away rights and freedoms and they have claimed that they wanted Britain to have influence in Europe.

This is nonsense.

Britain has far less influence in Europe than it had ten, twenty or thirty years ago.

Politicians have sold out the voters to gain personal political influence.

Britain, and the British, have gained nothing from membership of the EU. But membership has cost a great deal.

Britain would survive and survive well outside the EU.

The people of Norway and Switzerland have voted against joining the EU - and have thrived. Greenland, once in the EU, escaped and has prospered since getting out. If they can do it so can Britain.

Britain would survive and prosper outside the EU. It would be richer and more powerful. And its citizens would regain their lost independence.

Britain's trade is in surplus with every state in the world except the EU. If Britain left the EU it could regain power of its legal system, armed forces, and agricultural policies. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses would be saved from stifling bureaucracy. British is the worlds leading business language. British dominates the Internet. Our language means that we can trade with any other country in the world.

Tony Blair won't tell you this but Britain would be much richer if it left the EU. We would save a fortune. And be free of 30,000 rules.

The only people who would lose would be the politicians for whom the British stage is too small.

We could leave the EU in minutes. All we have to do is recall our ambassador to the EU.

(Did you know we had one? How, you might ask, can we have an ambassador to something we are supposed to be part of?) Withdrawing our ambassador would invalidate all treaties between Britain and the EU.

Or Parliament could simply repeal the Acts of Parliament which hold us to the EU.

Simple.

We could be out of the EU in minutes.




Taken from `England Our England' by Vernon Coleman, published by Blue Books. Available from the webshop on this site (or from all good bookshops or web bookshops.)



Home






Copyright Vernon Coleman 2004

[Yosy]

I get the feeling that Spanky is Commander Cool in disguise.

What a bunch of ****. Anyone who wrote this has serious mental problems.

To Spanky and Commander Cool: :backhand: :bash: :fork: :slap: - pick your favourite because I am not going to spend my time refuting pure stupidity and ignorance.

[Spanky]

I seem to have touched a few Europhile nerves :D And no, I'm not Commander Cool. And frankly I couldn't give a fu*k if you believe that or not.

[DaMasta!]

There are tons of reasonable arguments against EU, why do you have to come up, with such ignorant BS?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Spanky if your going to argue about the UK in Europe then start with facts do not cut and paste ****e written by cranks. :|

[cut]

So Spanky, would you prefer being the US's bitch to being part of europe? You've bought into that UKIP crap hook line and sinker. When the EU gets to the stage when it's an economic power to match the US, you'd rather we be on the sidelines in the formely great Britain, strugling to have our say on international issues, being as relevant to the world as Azerbaijan. You wouldn't be proud to be British anymore.

One more thing, why don't you write your own ideas down rather then someone elses.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Ha ha I finally relised who this Vernon Coleman is, he is the bloke who used to write about ****** problems in the tabloids in the 80's.
Go to his site its a hoot lots of cat stuff and anti vivisection rants he also wrote a book called 'We Love Cats' how sweet.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[-Max2-]

Those anti-EU Brits are foolish because they dont understand that the EU is the ONLY way for the UK to remains a great power. If you stay in the EU, the UK will continue to live through it.

But if you left, Britain will be marginalized and will become insignifiant in the world of tomorrow (especially with the rise of futur giants like China and India to name a few)...

[RS_Leo1A5]

I'm gonna comment on some of theses points.
I don't think that is gonna change Spanky's opinion but it could still be fun...

1. The phrase European Economic Community was invented by Nazi Hermann Goerring. The phrase United States of Europe was invented by Adolf Hitler. (page 122).
And that means what?


4. Joining the euro will cost every Englishman, Englishwoman and English child £650 in hard cash. (page 25)
It is interesting that the country-specific backsides of the Euro coins exist because of the UK! They insisted on being able to put their queen on the new coins.
And now they don't participate...


7. The E.U. is planning a chemical testing programme which will involve pointlessly torturing and killing 50 million animals. The programme will be partly paid for with money contributed by English taxpayers. (page 28)
Never heard of that. What is the reason for that programme, what is to be researched?


10. The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U. (page 33)
A rather strange thought...
At least here in Germany oaths are still sworn on our constitution.
The EU and its authorities supplement the national ones, they don't replace them.


11. The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. (page 33)
That would not be very democratic, would it?
If on the other hand a radical party violates the rules and principles of a European constitution it should indeed be banned.
In fact, the government of the country that party is from should ban it.


16. The Labour Government's Regional Assemblies will mean the end of England. (page 39)
I'm no Brit so please explain to me waht these Regional Assemblies are and do.
And if they exist because of the UK government, where's the EU involved?


25. If the E.U. has its way (and it will) the England cricket, football and rugby teams will disappear. (page 82)
Why?


29. Every new E.U. law, directive and regulation must be translated into each of 11 official E.U. languages. By the year 2004 the E.U. will have 21 official languages and the E.U. will have to find tens of thousands of skilled and honest interpreters able to translate Estonian into Polish, Czech into Maltese, Dutch into Hungarian etc etc. There will be 420 possible interpreting combinations. The E.U. will become even more unwieldy than it already is. (page 121)
But imagine the job possibilities!


30. It will soon be illegal for England to withdraw from the E.U. If we join the euro it will be impossible to leave. (page 122).
Well, I don't know the exact regulations, but joining the EU is a voluntary decision. I'm sure there are also rules for leaving.
The US went to war about that, but the EU is not the federal government in Washington - European countries are still independent.

[DaMasta!]

Well, I don't know the exact regulations, but joining the EU is a voluntary decision. I'm sure there are also rules for leaving.


There are no rules for leaving ;)

Still I dont think that could cause any problems... no one will invade Britan if they decide to leave.

[RS_Leo1A5]

There are no rules for leaving ;)
Really?
Now that surprises me! We are still speaking of the European Union, aren't we?
And there should really be a topic with no rules and regulations? What are those overpaid guys in Brussels doing all day?!

;)

[DaMasta!]

Really?
Now that surprises me! We are still speaking of the European Union, aren't we?

yep ;)


And there should really be a topic with no rules and regulations? What are those overpaid guys in Brussels doing all day?!


I guess they have good time spending our money in Brussels pubs. Wonder how do you become one of em ;)

[DaMasta!]

dublle

[cut]

Ha ha I finally relised who this Vernon Coleman is, he is the bloke who used to write about ****** problems in the tabloids in the 80's.
Go to his site its a hoot lots of cat stuff and anti vivisection rants he also wrote a book called 'We Love Cats' how sweet.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

First Kilroy now him, I wonder if all the anti-eu "intellectuals" are former agony aunts.

[achilles]

[quote="Spanky"]Cut, yes I am a Brit. A brit that wants us out of the undemocratic corrupt EU. This is why.


Spanky my man...take it easy....EU cannot be that bad. It may fail but you cannot condemn the experiment before it reaches some point of 'maturity'.

In general, it might be good for UK to stay in the periphery of the EU and stay closer to the US.

[Spanky]

Ha ha I finally relised who this Vernon Coleman is, he is the bloke who used to write about ****** problems in the tabloids in the 80's.
Go to his site its a hoot lots of cat stuff and anti vivisection rants he also wrote a book called 'We Love Cats' how sweet.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think he's a cross-dressing weirdo :D However, on the EU I agree with him. I dont want the UK to be anyones bitch, I want the worlds fourth largest economy to stand on its own two feet. I'm one of the countless millions of Brits simply fed up with the EU and if that shower of **** in No. 10 Downing Street thinks that lying ponce Mandleson will be able to sell the constitution to the public of this country they must be on crack.

UKIP all the way!! :P

[cut]

Ha ha I finally relised who this Vernon Coleman is, he is the bloke who used to write about ****** problems in the tabloids in the 80's.
Go to his site its a hoot lots of cat stuff and anti vivisection rants he also wrote a book called 'We Love Cats' how sweet.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think he's a cross-dressing weirdo :D However, on the EU I agree with him. I dont want the UK to be anyones bitch, I want the worlds fourth largest economy to stand on its own two feet. I'm one of the countless millions of Brits simply fed up with the EU and if that shower of **** in No. 10 Downing Street thinks that lying ponce Mandleson will be able to sell the constitution to the public of this country they must be on crack.

UKIP all the way!! :P

Do you honestly believe that the UK will stay the fourth largest outside the EU? The UK is either the the US's deputy (read bitch) or an equal partner in the EU. Why leave the EU, all the northern european countries are of the same opinions as us and so are the 10 new countries that just joined. If we leave the EU it will become French-German controlled, and they will blatantly get hostile economically if we're out of it. If we are in the EU we redress the balance.

We've already cut most of the economic ties with the commonwealth, so now our economy is dependent on the EU, were we to leave it we would sees to be the independent power that you want to be anyway.

[Spanky]

Cut, you make some good points, however I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the EU. I wish I could stay and argue but I've got a suitcase to pack for hols. :)

Cya tc

[cut]

Cut, you make some good points, however I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the EU. I wish I could stay and argue but I've got a suitcase to pack for hols. :)

Cya tc

Have a good'un :)

[moughoun]

Well well,commander cool, the EU might not be to your taste, but I'll take that over waking up in the US around 2020 or so and finding out your a suberb of Beijing, because that's who's financing that little national debt problem you have and they are also buying up the US future s market, and when they come looking for their cash I hope you have a platinum master card, it's going to be expensive to emigrate to Europe ;) , so have a good one, comrade :lol:

[martinexsquaddie]

rather argue for our cause in europe than go along with what ever the USA asks its not like there that keen on helping us out if we have a problem.
THE ukip are just the BNP with a nice hair cut :(
for any yank readers the bnp have a couple of town councillors no mps no euro MPs and are less succesful the ralph nader was so taking there views would be similar to beliveing the US is overrun by the UN and my armoured column :roll:

[moughoun]

rather argue for our cause in europe than go along with what ever the USA asks its not like there that keen on helping us out if we have a problem.
THE ukip are just the BNP with a nice hair cut :(
for any yank readers the bnp have a couple of town councillors no mps no euro MPs and are less succesful the ralph nader was so taking there views would be similar to beliveing the US is overrun by the UN and my armoured column :roll:

Your right ;)

[Kaos]

is an abomination which any country which wants to have any level of sovereignty should withdraw from, or not join if they haven't joined yet. Why anyone would want his country to join an organization which requires his country to surrender its sovereignty to Brussels is beyond me. Why anyone would be happy this his country now has to accept thousands of third world immigrants which will make native Europeans a minority in their own country and change their unique culture irreversably baffles me.

The EU was created by the French after WWII, the reasoning being that if Germany was tied down in a union with other Euro countries, they would not start another war. The US also supported the creation of the EU because we thought that a bloc of Euro countries could offer greater resistance to the spread of communism than individual countries. Clearly, the reasons for the EU's existence are obsolete.

I'm not denying that there are some economic benefits to the EU, such as the duty free trade of goods across Europe. But this hardly requires a single government that forces countries to sacrifice their sovereignty and have their decisions made from Brussels.

The funny thing is, I notice that the biggest supporters of the EU are eastern Euros like Poles who think they're hot **** now that they're "part of Europe" and "western". They don't seem to realize that the EU is taking away their sovereignty in the exact same way the USSR did. Why did they fight so hard to throw off communism and gain their freedom, if they're just going to give up their freedom again? Why did Slovenia fight so hard to free itself from being ruled from Belgrade, only to be ruled by Brussels (funny thing is, Slovenia had MORE influence over decisions and more representation in Belgrade than they do now in Brussels, much much more). These Eastern Euro countries are now 99% ethnically pure and have a unique culture that needs to be protected, but I bet in ten years they will have thousands of third worlders in them. Compare today's Ireland with the Ireland of 10 years ago, and ask the Irish how they feel about this DESTRUCTION of their culture.

The British National Party has it right:

Q: What does the BNP think about the European Union?

A: The European Union is a corrupt, totalitarian beast gobbling up the independent and free nations of ancient Europe. We want a Europe of traditional white nations, free and independent, not a multicultural, multiracial, dictatorial and bureaucratic European Superstate. Britain must secure its proud one-thousand-year-old freedom as an independent country by withdrawing from the European Union. If we do not, Britain will become a mere province, ruled from Brussels, with no influence whatsoever and no control over its own affairs. This is not the future we want, it is not the future the people want, it is not the future the people of Europe want. Only the self-serving liberal-left elite want it, and it’s time for the British people to tell them where to put their federal European ‘dream’!

http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html


More info on why the EU sucks:

http://www.silentmajority.co.uk/eurorealist/eucannot.html

Who's this clown????
Do I really need to read the next ten pages???
:roll:

[szr]

So Spanky, would you prefer being the US's bitch to being part of europe? You've bought into that UKIP crap hook line and sinker. When the EU gets to the stage when it's an economic power to match the US, you'd rather we be on the sidelines in the formely great Britain, strugling to have our say on international issues, being as relevant to the world as Azerbaijan. You wouldn't be proud to be British anymore.

One more thing, why don't you write your own ideas down rather then someone elses.

We'll nuke Europe before we let that happen! rofl rofl
Sorry... Just after seeing the the letters 'EU' over and over and over again, all I could think of was Europe in flames. I'm finished now. :D All you Europeans may go back to squabbling among yourselves.

Props to Commander Cool! Vote Kerry 2k4 Drink Pepsi Bree: Please call me

[perdurabo]

france and uk have nukes too :lol:

[moughoun]

france and uk have nukes too :lol:

And Poland's secret arsenal ;) , alway's ready for action

[perdurabo]

france and uk have nukes too :lol:

And Poland's secret arsenal ;) , alway's ready for action
shhhh who told you that?
you know that i must now kill you for saying out loud our secrets p-)

[radon]

Why do so many non-Eu people care about the Eu anway. How does it affect them.

[Kampfbaer]

It will be most entlightening to me if some of the members here who bash the EU would care to post an alternative, maybe a Europe like the one pre WW 1 and WW 2 with Entente Cordial and Axis? :(

I don't think this would be a bright alternative.

Still I think that the EU shall be improved, e.g. strengthening the parliament.

I hope for some constructive proposals. :)

[AROUETLJ]

Hey you, the one who wrote the comment before me, tell Gerhardt to show two fingers to the USA, who hates you anyway, and who made you live with a guilt complex for sixty years, and to build a couple of aircarft carriers as soon as possible, ditch conscription, build a super-army, and join forces with those countries who will work for a stronger EU. And anyone inside the EU who lifts a finger against it will be blasted to the outside.

[Kampfbaer]

Well I think that the numner of germans with a guilt complex is declining fast! p-)

There won't be many mentally stable persons in the US who hate Germany today. There aren't many people here who hate The US.

As a German from (West) Berlin I like the USA very much, they and the Brits and French were with us for decades and stood up for our freedom and welfare.

Although it is possible for a friend to disagree on certain points or to critisize certain politicians.

As for the super army, you are right, Germany and other EU countries should spent more on defence, to be able to do joint operations with the US anywere in the world were the western way of life is threatened by stupid people. ;)

[Freibier]

Well I think that the numner of germans with a guilt complex is declining fast! p-)

True, True :P

[Pille1234]

Well I think that the numner of germans with a guilt complex is declining fast! p-)

True, True :P
OH NOOO! I just murdered a gnat! I'm feeling so guilty now! :oops:

Sorry, OT.

[Loco]

It will be most entlightening to me if some of the members here who bash the EU would care to post an alternative, maybe a Europe like the one pre WW 1 and WW 2 with Entente Cordial and Axis?

I don´t know why the need of a new Axis or an Entente Cordial. Is it just that nor France nor Germany can live without invading each other again and again?Why can´t you live peacefully inside of your borders? I don´t bash EU, but just I just can´t see the need of an european political union, I don´t see the worth of this big step. I would like the sincere opinions of frenchs or germanies to support a political union in europe: Do you feel really too much europeans?? Do you really are eager of putting the interests of all european people over national interests of France and Germany? The recent history shows that Germany and France haven´t forgotten the old loyalties of years previous to IWW, so frenchs supported in almost every stance Serbia and Germany had intact his rancour to this ones and his loyalty of croatians. Germany and France have in my opinion a big responsability in the bloody end of Yugoslavia.
Btw, I celebrate germans don´t suffer of guilty complex anymore, now I hope you don´t go to the other extreme and suffer of superiority complex again or victim complex because in the war movies you always are the bad guys. :P
Seriously, I like europe more than anyother part of the world, but I like the differences we have the countries like are now and my sincere thought is that I don´t trust to defend my national interest in an organization piloted by France, Germany and/or Ukingdom. If it´s gonna be a political integration, we must go slowly and walking only one step in every generation.

[Shadow]

Why don't we make Europe one big country with only one government then you won't have this Frace/Germany ruled Europe **** anymore.

[Kilgor]

Why don't we make Europe one big country with only one government then you won't have this Frace/Germany ruled Europe **** anymore.

germany tried that in the 1940's and it didnt work :P

[Moledet]

Well I think that the numner of germans with a guilt complex is declining fast! p-)

True, True :P
Germans no longer live with a guilt complex and spend the nights in the basment with beer and sausages?

[Macs.]

Why don't we make Europe one big country with only one government then you won't have this Frace/Germany ruled Europe **** anymore.

Something like this won't happen in the next 100 Years.

[khukuri]

It will be most entlightening to me if some of the members here who bash the EU would care to post an alternative, maybe a Europe like the one pre WW 1 and WW 2 with Entente Cordial and Axis?

I don´t know why the need of a new Axis or an Entente Cordial. Is it just that nor France nor Germany can live without invading each other again and again?Why can´t you live peacefully inside of your borders? I don´t bash EU, but just I just can´t see the need of an european political union, I don´t see the worth of this big step. I would like the sincere opinions of frenchs or germanies to support a political union in europe: Do you feel really too much europeans?? Do you really are eager of putting the interests of all european people over national interests of France and Germany? The recent history shows that Germany and France haven´t forgotten the old loyalties of years previous to IWW, so frenchs supported in almost every stance Serbia and Germany had intact his rancour to this ones and his loyalty of croatians. Germany and France have in my opinion a big responsability in the bloody end of Yugoslavia.
Btw, I celebrate germans don´t suffer of guilty complex anymore, now I hope you don´t go to the other extreme and suffer of superiority complex again or victim complex because in the war movies you always are the bad guys. :P
Seriously, I like europe more than anyother part of the world, but I like the differences we have the countries like are now and my sincere thought is that I don´t trust to defend my national interest in an organization piloted by France, Germany and/or Ukingdom. If it´s gonna be a political integration, we must go slowly and walking only one step in every generation.

I am also feeling that eu is making the other countries in th eu itself less powerfull and let france/germ dictate more.

[Freibier]

Where is Germany dictating?