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View Full Version : Australian Defense Force - Populate or perish still true



T3ngu
04-09-2010, 02:19 AM
KEVIN Rudd and Tony Abbott have taken complementary disastrous wrong turns in immigration and population policy that threaten Australian national security. Rudd is at fault for losing control of the northern borders. The flood of illegal immigrants his policies have attracted has undermined support for a big immigration program. Abbott is at fault for descending into rank and foolish populism by advocating a cut in the immigration program. His criticisms of Labor's lax border policies are wholly sound.

But why do the Liberals in Opposition flirt with anti-growth policies that are against all their core values? It's bad policy, bad politics and, in this case, it threatens long-term national security. Once, national security was at the heart of immigration and population policy. After World War II we were exhorted to "populate or perish". We couldn't be sure we would keep control of our vast continent with a tiny population. Today such thinking is derided as reactionary and unsophisticated. But population is intimately linked to national security. It's an exceptionally difficult subject to discuss openly because it often involves constructing hypothetical threat scenarios and identifying possible enemies.


But let's take it in a straightforward way. No one has greater faith in the US's resilience, staying power and reliability as an ally than this column but there is no guarantee the US will always provide security for this region and for Australia. Our military needs to be configured for more than the narrow continental defence of our territory because our interests are so much broader, but of course our military has to be able to dominate its own home area.


This is no easy task with a land mass the size of Australia. The defence white paper envisaged Australia with a force of 12 submarines. We now have an army of 27,000 regulars and about 16,000 reserves. And we are acquiring 100 fifth-generation Joint Strike Fighters or F-35s.


Treasury's Intergenerational Report foolishly projected a population for Australia of about 36 million in 2050. This was foolish because the figure seems too big to cope with, as all figures 40 years hence would. But this would involve a muchsmaller percentage increase than we undertook during the past 40 years. We are much richer now so we can afford the relevant infrastructure. So, suppose sometime shortly after mid-century we did more or less double our population from today. In that time we would have got richer in per-capita terms as well. That would mean we could envisage a force of 24 submarines, a regular army of 54,000 with 32,000 reserves and 200 F-35s.
Some people wrongly say that Australia could never take any independent military action on its own. Hopefully we would always have friends and allies. But 24 submarines at our disposal means anyone trying to interfere with us navally is going to need a vast armada that can sustain epic losses. Similarly with 200 F-35s and any hostile air force. You don't need to construct enemies to know that Australia at 40 million, young and strong, is infinitely more likely from a national security point of view to retain control of its destiny than an Australia of 25 million, old and weakening, or even declining.
Even now our population is radically too small in national security terms. During the past 10 to 15 years we have relocated a large portion of our defence forces to northern Australia. There is no real rationale for Darwin to exist other than as a statement that Australia lives in and controls this territory. Insightful demographer Bernard Salt has pointed out how much of our natural resource wealth is vulnerably located in northwestern Australia, where there is no population base.


The huge resources boom we are undergoing has led some to describe Australia as a possible Saudi Arabia of the South Pacific. I can imagine no more revolting a label than that. But think for a minute about Saudi Arabia's national security predicament and what this has meant for the world. Almost all of the Iraq imbroglio of the past 15 years is a result of Saudi Arabia being too decadent and too small in population terms to provide for its security against its avaricious neighbour, Iraq.


The term "resources curse" is familiar to economists. It refers to the syndrome whereby a nation is both blessed and cursed with resources wealth. This wealth makes the currency too strong to allow other export industries to develop and it concentrates economic power in the hands of government and a few companies, giving much of the rest of the economy the morally, economically and politically crippling status of rent seekers.
The best way to avoid this syndrome is to have a big, booming domestic economy full of diversity and internal competition. It's true that rapid population growth poses infrastructure challenges. But the pathetic failure of state governments to provide and manage infrastructure means they all need to be turfed out or reformed. The growth we are contemplating is not big by our past standards. In 1945 there were seven million Australians; in the following 65 years we grew by more than 300 per cent. In 1966 there were 11 million Australians, so in the 44 years since then we have grown by 100 per cent. In the Treasury estimate of 36 million by 2050, we would be growing by only 63 per cent from today. This strikes me as nothing more than a credible minimum.


The idea that Australia has a small carrying capacity is nonsense. Carrying capacity depends entirely on the technology we bring to bear on the situation. The US has a vastly more sophisticated national security debate than we do. In it a new book, The Next Hundred Million by Joel Kotkin, is playing a central role. The US will reach 400 million long before 2050. When it does, a quarter of its people will be over 60, compared with 31 per cent in China. It is this brilliant dynamic of growth and renewal that makes all the hard heads in security predict continued US dominance in security matters. If Australia, with a vastly more challenging security outlook than the US, chooses stagnation and decline, we will invite disaster.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/populate-or-perish-still-true/story-e6frg6zo-1225851108147

Austra
04-09-2010, 05:20 AM
24 of those new subs?? Are they ****ing with us?? They already costing i think about 2 billion ( off top of head) and they want another 12??? Good luck with that

Goldfishsoldier
04-09-2010, 07:24 AM
It's a nice Idea, a defence force that's large and independent enough to operate on it's own, but with the governments incompetent spending I doubt it could sustain a Defence Force double the size it is now. It's great for morale when you here, even though I've never seen a diabled person on barracks, there spending $5 million to install wheelchair access when that money could be used for badly needed ammo or night fighting equipment.

BLUE THOR
04-09-2010, 07:46 AM
It's a nice Idea, a defence force that's large and independent enough to operate on it's own, but with the governments incompetent spending I doubt it could sustain a Defence Force double the size it is now. It's great for morale when you here, even though I've never seen a diabled person on barracks, there spending $5 million to install wheelchair access when that money could be used for badly needed ammo or night fighting equipment.

like he said, and then some. I wonder where the money will come from to fund all of this, yes, you can argue the population will be larger and therefore more tax revenue, but theses alot of spending and infastructure required to do this.
That said, Id welcome it. would be interesting to travel to another base and not know a dozen or more blokes there.

Opening Batsman
04-09-2010, 07:46 AM
Haha I haven't seen a wheelchair on a base either.

On the article, meh. Stuff the population! People suck anyway, and I dislike the way all these randoms are building houses in what used to be paddocks back home. Back in my day...

Scriptable
04-09-2010, 07:39 PM
The idea that Australia has a small carrying capacity is nonsense. Carrying capacity depends entirely on the technology we bring to bear on the situation.
This is B.S. There are more factors than just technology. You have to work with what you are given.

Australia does have a small carrying capacity relative to many other developed nations. Australia has very low-yield, ancient soils ****e to salinity and rapid degradation, along with vast areas with limited availability of fresh water. As a consequence, a larger land area is required to produce a similar level of agricultural output even with massive infrastructure and technological input.

If Australia wants to grow its population, is it also investing heavily in infrastructure to support a larger future population? My impression is that the answer to this is no.

See: http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/soils/overview/index.html


Australian agricultural soil characteristics

Australian soils tend to be:

* old
* salty
* clayey - except in the west of the continent where they tend to be sandy
* acidic
* nutritionally and organically impoverished
* structurally challenging

Compared with soils in the Northern Hemisphere, Australian soils have less organic matter and poor structure and tend to be quite clayey just below the surface, which restricts drainage and impedes root growth. Some of the clay characteristics cause problems for engineering and farming because of their 'shrink and swell' nature.

Australian soils mirror the continent's great age and consequently are products of environmental conditions throughout history (climate, organisms, topography, parent material and time). This means that large areas are affected by salt and have various nutrient and physical limitations for plant growth and agriculture.

Goldfishsoldier
04-09-2010, 09:48 PM
This is B.S. There are more factors than just technology. You have to work with what you are given.

Australia does have a small carrying capacity relative to many other developed nations. Australia has very low-yield, ancient soils ****e to salinity and rapid degradation, along with vast areas with limited availability of fresh water. As a consequence, a larger land area is required to produce a similar level of agricultural output even with massive infrastructure and technological input.

If Australia wants to grow its population, is it also investing heavily in infrastructure to support a larger future population? My impression is that the answer to this is no.

See: http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/soils/overview/index.html

That's a bit simplistic to argue we can't continue to grow because we have old, degraded soils. Yes, the majority of the country is covered with such land, but that doesn't mean it can't be farmed. A lot of it is already being farmed, just not intensely, it all depends what sort of crop our animal your rearing, and besides food security isn't an issue with all these fat people running (sorry waddling) around and the amount of agricutural products we export.

The to biggest issues this country faces are water security for farm and domestic use, of which at least something is being done about and controlling the growth of the major metro areas and encouraging more growth in rural and regional areas to spread the population out and not put such a huge strain on the resources of one part of the country. Thats what I reckon anyways.

Hando
04-10-2010, 12:51 AM
The to biggest issues this country faces are water security for farm and domestic use, of which at least something is being done about and controlling the growth of the major metro areas and encouraging more growth in rural and regional areas to spread the population out and not put such a huge strain on the resources of one part of the country. Thats what I reckon anyways.

Agreed, however the trouble in this is that for the past decade, regional $$$ have been more intensely associated with digging the dirt up as opposed to planting it. Whereas in the past Australia's export economy was firmly based upon agriculture, it is now based upon mining. Whilst this is bringing in a far greater export profit, this is also leading to a very single-sided allocation of regional funding (Which is still a very low priority for governments both state and federal). Nowadays within the farming areas services are thinly spread and negligible and the population is rapidly againg/declining as young folk are forced to move either to the cities or to the mines.

Perhaps an initiative where potential migrants are given an option "Wait 4 years to move into a city or move straight out bush right now"

MichaelF
04-10-2010, 06:07 PM
To significantly increase the Australian continent's carrying capacity (iow, arable land for farming or areas fit for housing) is quite doable. However, you'd need a Negev-style irrigation effort (even for housing areas, you'd need to pipe in massive quantities of water).

Most likely, a large desalinization infrastructure would be needed, as most of Australia's hydrogeology isn't up to providing that kind of water from the aquifers.

So, yes...you can do it. You'll just need a TVA-like "National Effort". And a couple of decades.


And, of course, you'll need to find people to populate settlements. At this point, I would hope any Western nation has figured out that Pig & Elephant DNA just won't splice...and that inviting in folks who have absolutely zero in common with you is a quick way to cook dynamite on the stove.

Alternately, wait to be conquered by the USA in our next Imperial phase....

Creampuff
04-10-2010, 07:22 PM
There is a natural resource that remains untapped, if it were possible to utilise the those giant icebergs from Antarctica, which may prove more cost effective then a desalination programme. The big problem would be losing much of the water in the transport phase, still an interesting idea my science teacher once hypothesized.

bababooey
04-10-2010, 09:27 PM
On the defense topic, what does a larger force actually mean for Oz? Having more aircraft does what to increase Australian defense? If its quantity they are after, why not have 200 smaller, indigenous aircraft built instead of silver-bullet machines like the F-35. Wouldn't designing a, lets say, twin-prop aircraft able to stay airborne for patrol with armaments aboard be a useful addition? Brazil has something called the Tucano to patrol the Amazon, plus its an export success. Taking the money used to buy american built aircraft and using a small portion to stimulate the manufacturing sector is great for growth. Just a thought, stimulated by Jim Beam.

IconOfEvi
04-11-2010, 07:11 AM
Alternately, wait to be conquered by the USA in our next Imperial phase....

This.

Or as said, desalination. Nuclear desalination would be cool as you get awesome amounts of juice, and as a byproduct of the heat, instead of wasting it, use it to desalinize.

bababooey
04-11-2010, 09:11 AM
This.

Or as said, desalination. Nuclear desalination would be cool as you get awesome amounts of juice, and as a byproduct of the heat, instead of wasting it, use it to desalinize.

Great idea! Are there any references that you know of that I can read up on?

Violet Fashion by Mindy
04-11-2010, 10:03 AM
To significantly increase the Australian continent's carrying capacity (iow, arable land for farming or areas fit for housing) is quite doable. However, you'd need a Negev-style irrigation effort (even for housing areas, you'd need to pipe in massive quantities of water).

Most likely, a large desalinization infrastructure would be needed, as most of Australia's hydrogeology isn't up to providing that kind of water from the aquifers.

So, yes...you can do it. You'll just need a TVA-like "National Effort". And a couple of decades.


And, of course, you'll need to find people to populate settlements. At this point, I would hope any Western nation has figured out that Pig & Elephant DNA just won't splice...and that inviting in folks who have absolutely zero in common with you is a quick way to cook dynamite on the stove.

Alternately, wait to be conquered by the USA in our next Imperial phase....


Thing is that are against such a scheme. Tyranny of distance. It's just not feasible to build desalination in Australia and ship the water somwhere else.

And make know mistake. Despite what you see on TV Australia barely manages to be a developed nation. Outside the state capitals and a few select regional cities/towns Australia has infrastructure that barely exceeds sub-saharan levels of development.

Lokos
04-11-2010, 10:59 AM
Despite what you see on TV Australia barely manages to be a developed nation.

I would be very careful with the way you phrase this.

L.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
04-11-2010, 04:44 PM
Have you ever been outside a major city Lokos for any considerable time?

Been to a regional hospital in which there is only a nurse on duty?

Sub standard transportation infrastructure

Driven through an aboriginal township?

May towns and communities lack suitable drinking water, waste and sewage services. Hell even in Newcastle itself, one of Australia's most important areas rely on rain water tanks and are not connected to the sewage system.

Don't get me wrong Australia is ****ing paradise. But you get more then 3 hours from a major city/town **** goes downhill real fast unless it's an area populated by tourists. And then the improvements are only superficial.

T3ngu
04-11-2010, 06:10 PM
Min that is an over generalisation. Yes, you have said the truth, but most towns in rural/outback Australia have running water, sewerage (of septic) systems, electricity and telephones. This is no mean feat given the distance requirements.

Yes, some aboriginal townships are abysmal, but this isn't the forum (so to speak) for us to discuss why that occurs.

Our transport infrastructure is lacking, but again, the distances makes things difficult when everyone has a car. Regarding Hospitals, its not just the large hospitals that just have a nurse on duty at night.

I will agree that elements of Australia suck because of failed labour governments driving infrastructure into the dirt. i.e. Queensland. Whats worse are the idiots who keep voting them back in.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
04-11-2010, 06:16 PM
But if we can't get things right now in existing areas how the hell are we supposed to build new towns/cities from scratch for immigrants?

T3ngu
04-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Re new towns, that simply wont ever happen. Public opinion is running rampant on the subject. But you are right, we need to focus on the existing people first.

IconOfEvi
04-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Again, nuclear desalination. Australia's grandest hope I think.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf71.html

Hando
04-11-2010, 11:44 PM
But if we can't get things right now in existing areas how the hell are we supposed to build new towns/cities from scratch for immigrants?

Why would we need to build new towns? The issue is declining/ghost population in existing towns that already HAVE infrastructure. It may not be the greatest, but it is safe, secure and there.

Lokos
04-12-2010, 03:22 AM
Don't get me wrong Australia is ****ing paradise. But you get more then 3 hours from a major city/town **** goes downhill real fast unless it's an area populated by tourists.

I would think that both the United States and Russia could also qualify for this characterization. Very large countries centralize their infrastructure regionally out of necessity.

L.