The new polish training jet aircraft "BIELIK" - pr

[_Samez_]

"A" version

Designed as low-cost aeroplane for primary- and advanced training of military pilots. In its basic version designated for training in basic pilotage, aerobatics and navigation, as well as low altitude flying etc.

"B" version

Aeroplane for general aviation purposes, mainly in the field of aerobatic and high-speed, medium range (2000-2500 km) cruise.


All-composite structure (carbon fibre + epoxy resin system for 80oC operation temperature), except for fuselage rear portion designed in light alloy structure. One-spar wing, employing a supercritical profile of 6 per cent maximum airfoil section thickness, provided with leading-, and trailing edge flaps over the whole wing span. Slab-type tail plane, designed in the wing resembling structure, for both longitudinal and lateral control. Twin fin tail unit of composite structure, installed on the fuselage mounted metal spar, provided with one-way only deflected rudders (outboard - i.e. the portboard one to the left, and starboard to the right)

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/imajthumb/images/IG_10_jpg.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/DRAW-MAIN-iskra.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/imajthumb/images/IG_3_jpg.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/ims/ims_8.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/ikm/ikm_7.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/ikm/ikm_11.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/imajthumb/images/IG_6_jpg.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/imajthumb/images/IG_7_jpg.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/imajthumb/images/IG_8_jpg.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/zp13.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/IGMAKU.jpg

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/ISKRAMAJ/IG_19.jpg

more infos: http://www.marganski.home.pl/html/A-ENG/ISKRA%20II.htm

[Falco]

That's one nice plane woot

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I was, I am, and I will think that this aircraft isn't a good idea, because:
1) for basing training we have PZL-130s, which are cheaper (turboprops), modern, and may be upgraded (TC-II, TC-III).
2) for advanced training- Bielik can't be armed, it doesn't have modern avionics, it wasn't certificated for aerobatics. Modern conventional trainers like L-159, T-50, Yak-130 or Hawk would be much better for this role.
3) all this 'armament-simulation' system even doesn't exist, develompent will take time and lots of money. And don't know what's the sense of it- if pilot could only drop "electronic" bombs and launch "electronic" missiles, than a simple ground-based simulator would be much cheaper and better. Costs of flight are high, so pilots should train on simulators, and when they fly real aircraft, they should have chance to drop real bombs.

If anyone have a dofferent opinion, I'll flame him ;)

[perdurabo]

first prototype had its first flight in last year but our AF is not intrested :( its completly civilian design of E.Margański firm. (they also make Fox and SwiftS1 glidders, Fox is one of the best gliders for aerobation its almoust standard for whole world! woot )

[perdurabo]

I was, I am, and I will think that this aircraft isn't a good idea, because:
1) for basing training we have PZL-130s, which are cheaper (turboprops), modern, and may be upgraded (TC-II, TC-III).
its not basic trainer its for middle classes, first you learn how to fly on planes like Wilga or Zlin then you go to Orlik then Hawk or something like that and then on fighter...
idea of Bielik is intresting but it needs whole new training programe much diffrent from today standards
also Brzęczyk T-50 will have this type of systems to emulate radar etc... so its not completly stupid to put simulator in real air, feelings are much diffrent from ground simulators.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

also Brzęczyk T-50 will have this type of systems to emulate radar etc... so its not completly stupid to put simulator in real air, feelings are much diffrent from ground simulators.

But T-50 can also carry normal bombs and missiles.
Simulating radar is one, and simulating everything from avionics to armament is another.

[perdurabo]

also Brzęczyk T-50 will have this type of systems to emulate radar etc... so its not completly stupid to put simulator in real air, feelings are much diffrent from ground simulators.

But T-50 can also carry normal bombs and missiles.
Simulating radar is one, and simulating everything from avionics to armament is another.
But whole idea isnt stupid, flying simulator its good idea new Pilatus PC10(?) works in this idea.

[Herrmannek]

I say go for it..Idea is briliant, and It is future of training planes you want it or not.. And we can be first to do such plane and sell it abroad not vice versa...

[perdurabo]

I say go for it..Idea is briliant, and It is future of training planes you want it or not.. And we can be first to do such plane and sell it abroad not vice versa...
not first sorry Pilatus have its new plane but its turboprop so its acceleration is much diffrent than this babe i would love to fly this thingy if it is as good as Fox it should be simply perfect in air! i had an occasion to see aerobatics made by M. Margańska in fox doughter of owner and main engeneer of this firm it was spectacular realy briliant glider.

[Herrmannek]

I say go for it..Idea is briliant, and It is future of training planes you want it or not.. And we can be first to do such plane and sell it abroad not vice versa...
not first sorry Pilatus have its new plane but its turboprop so its acceleration is much diffrent than this babe i would love to fly this thingy if it is as good as Fox it should be simply perfect in air! i had an occasion to see aerobatics made by M. Margańska in fox doughter of owner and main engeneer of this firm it was spectacular realy briliant glider.

Do you say there is a plane with fully simulated armaments with can do dog fight & drop bombs etc without actualy doing that, and behave realy like it would drop that bomb. If that plane also can pretend other planes charateristics to imitate fidely that planes and speed up learning proces without spending money for traing on actual expensive fighter with ammo and maintenance cost as much as few small Bieliks and possible loss would cost even more? I heard this is the aim of that project not frame itself... This is very advanced idea but who dares wins...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I say go for it..Idea is briliant, and It is future of training planes you want it or not.. And we can be first to do such plane and sell it abroad not vice versa...

Et tu, Hermane, contra me? :lol:

Yeah, I don't want such future of training aircraft.
Let's say that we have:
1) conventional training system: basic on PZL-130, advanced and LIFT on advanced jet trainer (i.e. Hawk). Pilots learn basic skills on the Orlik, then they go on the jet, and fly less frequently, because most of training is done by ground-based simulators. Aircraft are only used in aerobatics and armament training. After finishing this course they go to combat units.
2) All training (basic and advanced) done with Bieliks. Pilots train on the ground simulators and aircraft. What's the outcome? In combat units we have fresh military pilots who didn't dropped a single real bomb or fired real cannon. So they need training flights on their F-16s. And that won't be cheap.

If that's the future, why noone (even the superpowers) except us is creating such aircraft? About newest Pilatus (PC-21): IIRC noone has decided to buy it.

[perdurabo]

Do you say there is a plane with fully simulated armaments with can do dog fight & drop bombs etc without actualy doing that, and behave realy like it would drop that bomb. If that plane also can pretend other planes charateristics to imitate fidely that planes and speed up learning proces without spending money for traing on actual expensive fighter with ammo and maintenance cost as much as few small Bieliks and possible loss would cost even more? I heard this is the aim of that project not frame itself... This is very advanced idea but who dares wins...
dont know how advenced Pilatus simulator is but if Bielik will have this we have revolution in training going in!

[perdurabo]

Brzęczyk no Orlik isn't basic plane first steps in flying you do on Zlin and Wilga sometimes on gliders before them.
Orlik isnt perfect because its turboprop its acceleration characteristics are not similiar to jet (they are similiar but in very limited way) its new idea that needs new training type new way of thinking. Remember that in next 20years usage of combat planes will be limited and role of ucav will become bigger and bigger...

for other
producer page:
http://marganski.com.pl/
and pics from first fly
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/rjm/rjm_origin/EM-10-1-10.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/gorpol/goroob_9.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/gorpol/goroob_7.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/gorpol/goroob_4.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/gorpol/goroob_3.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/image/ISKRA/bielik_ob/rjm/rjmob_1.jpg

other planes of this firm:
gliders:
Swift
http://marganski.com.pl/image/SWIFT/S-2.jpg
Fox
http://marganski.com.pl/image/FOX/N%20FOX/nf-9%20.jpg
experimental planes:
Małgosia (Margaret)
http://marganski.com.pl/image/Malgoia/M-6.jpg
Kasia (Katherine)
http://marganski.com.pl/image/kasia/k-1.jpg
Glidder puller Gniady:
http://marganski.com.pl/image/Gniady/Gn-1.jpg
Orka (killerwhale) - small busines plane- its first flight
http://marganski.com.pl/html/A-POL/samoloty/em11/orka_oblot/oobl_image/orka03-10.jpg
http://marganski.com.pl/html/A-POL/samoloty/em11/orka_oblot/oobl_image/orka01-15.jpg

[PeoplesPoster]

Thats a cool looking trainer.

[usa320]

looks similar to the MiG-AT.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Brzęczyk no Orlik isn't basic plane first steps in flying you do on Zlin and Wilga sometimes on gliders before them.

About PZL-130- OK, I admit, my mistake.


Orlik isnt perfect because its turboprop its acceleration characteristics are not similiar to jet (they are similiar but in very limited way) its new idea that needs new training type new way of thinking.

Using modern avionics and FBW system you can make turpoprop plane's characteristics almost identical with jet one (i.e. T-6, PC-9M have such systems).
About the future- well, I'm not an expert, so I can tell you how the situation will be in 2020, 2030 etc. But we need modern training aircraft now, and don't have time and money for experiments.
Once again- I don't get this idea- the pilot changes form one (ground) simulator to another (flying)?


Remember that in next 20years usage of combat planes will be limited and role of ucav will become bigger and bigger...

Nah, probably ot in our army...
MND wants to buy first UAV (recon) system in 2007-8. So when we will see UCAVs? 2040, maybe? :roll:



looks similar to the MiG-AT.

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/DRAW-MAIN-iskra.jpg

http://www.aircraftdesign.com/mig.jpg

[perdurabo]

Using modern avionics and FBW system you can make turpoprop plane's characteristics almost identical with jet one (i.e. T-6, PC-9M have such systems).
yes i know but its still limited even with modern systems



About the future- well, I'm not an expert, so I can tell you how the situation will be in 2020, 2030 etc. But we need modern training aircraft now, and don't have time and money for experiments.
Once again- I don't get this idea- the pilot changes form one (ground) simulator to another (flying)?
but we dont need money its private firm that it makes it so our gov needs only to buy ready planes, all R&D is made by E.Margański
You dont see this but i see even wery highly advenced ground simulator isnt perfect you can train procedures and reactions on situations but you dont "feel" them when your "plane" goes crazy you can just restart it when you are in the air there is no place for "ahh well i can start it over again" if you look at averge pilot how much he droped bombs etc and from what you will see that moust of them droped wery small number and moust of them from combat plane not LIFT....
its new conception and should be developed and tested but we can be first with this and there is basic rule in market "be first if you cant try to be the best" yes it should be counted what will be cheaper, and tested but be open minded. dont close project because its something new that noone uses.



Nah, probably ot in our army...
MND wants to buy first UAV (recon) system in 2007-8. So when we will see UCAVs? 2040, maybe? :roll: i wouldnt be so sure look at few systems llike azalia or storczyk we are in first row changes in our military are faster and faster with time




looks similar to the MiG-AT.

http://www.marganski.home.pl/image/ISKRA/DRAW-MAIN-iskra.jpg

http://www.aircraftdesign.com/mig.jpg
nothing similiar only that both has two wings and are training two seater ....

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

but we dont need money its private firm that it makes it so our gov needs only to buy ready planes, all R&D is made by E.Margański

Yeah I konw. Only thing is that AFAIK Marganski's company doesn't have money to develop the most important thing- avionics. And developing such system will cost a lot.


its new conception and should be developed and tested but we can be first with this and there is basic rule in market "be first if you cant try to be the best" yes it should be counted what will be cheaper, and tested but be open minded. dont close project because its something new that noone uses.

Yeah, I'm conservative and narrow-minded ;) And I'm almost sure that we won't see this aircraft even as a protorype with fully working systems.


i wouldnt be so sure look at few systems llike azalia or storczyk we are in first row changes in our military are faster and faster with time

But they are just C2 systems for land forces and generals need them.
We have the technical possibilities to produce military UAVs on our own since few years, but MND just isn't interested in buying it...

[perdurabo]

but we dont need money its private firm that it makes it so our gov needs only to buy ready planes, all R&D is made by E.Margański

Yeah I konw. Only thing is that AFAIK Marganski's company doesn't have money to develop the most important thing- avionics. And developing such system will cost a lot.


its new conception and should be developed and tested but we can be first with this and there is basic rule in market "be first if you cant try to be the best" yes it should be counted what will be cheaper, and tested but be open minded. dont close project because its something new that noone uses.

Yeah, I'm conservative and narrow-minded ;) And I'm almost sure that we won't see this aircraft even as a protorype with fully working systems.


i wouldnt be so sure look at few systems llike azalia or storczyk we are in first row changes in our military are faster and faster with time

But they are just C2 systems for land forces and generals need them.
We have the technical possibilities to produce military UAVs on our own since few years, but MND just isn't interested in buying it...
Brzęczyk we have tight budget wait few years "nie odrazu kraków zbudowano"