Mao's Bloody Revolution

[Ordie]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3439076506613505887#

Good documentary

[gaijinsamurai]

"Mao: The Untold Story" By Jun Chang is an excellent biography of Mao Tse Tung. Recommended (along with her best-seller, "Wild Swans") for further reading.


Thanks, Ordie.

[Donkeyboy912]

Between Mao and Stalin you have the worlds two greatest murderers in history.. Seems just about any communist country you look at in history is ruled by evil people..

[jmanscram]

Anybody can use propaganda to make someone look evil. An objective look at the building of the United States or Britain would show pure evil in the enslavement and extermination of native populations along with the many imperial wars. Next time use your brain before you paint that broad stroke.

[Connaught Ranger]

Between Mao and Stalin you have the worlds two greatest murderers in history.. Seems just about any communist country you look at in history is ruled by evil people..

The name Adolf Hitler ring a bell?

[Bruisercruiser]

Anybody can use propaganda to make someone look evil. An objective look at the building of the United States or Britain would show pure evil in the enslavement and extermination of native populations along with the many imperial wars. Next time use your brain before you paint that broad stroke.

Yes! Stalin and Mao are victims of propaganda! rofl

[jmanscram]

How many people do you claim them to have killed, it seems to me that some people blame Mao for all death in China during his lifetime.

[ferguson]

So are you saying the chairman was just an unfortunate victim of propaganda?

How big is the rock you live under?

[seasch]

"Mao: The Untold Story" By Jun Chang is an excellent biography of Mao Tse Tung. Recommended (along with her best-seller, "Wild Swans") for further reading.

Great Book! Gave it as a present to some friends last christmas. I think it is called "Mao: The Unknown Story" though.

[jmanscram]

So what are some of his crimes? Other than defeating the kmt and throwing the un forces out of north korea that is.

[Connaught Ranger]

So what are some of his crimes? Other than defeating the kmt and throwing the un forces out of north korea that is.

Welcome little troll! Nice 4th post.:roll:

[jmanscram]

You came after me if anyone should be getting welcomed its you, but i wouldn't welcome someone with that name. So forget it.

[Connaught Ranger]

You came after me if anyone should be getting welcomed its you, but i wouldn't welcome someone with that name. So forget it.

Can you be a little more clear with what you mean?

[jmanscram]

You named yourself after a regiment of traitors. Do you need further clarification?

[Connaught Ranger]

You named yourself after a regiment of traitors. Do you need further clarification?

You really would be wise to read up on your history a little better sonny, a part of a Connaught Ranger battalion, on service in India, layed down their arms and refused to work because of the trouble in Ireland between the Black & Tans and the Irish Civil population, a very small group of Connaught Rangers, stationed at an outpost in the hills, attempted to forcibly take weapons from the Armoury, an attempt that quickly failed, those involved were arrested and one man subsequently faced the firing squad, others were sentenced to prison.

So your attempts to brand one of the British Armys finest Irish Regiments over the act of a misquided few, is a Mega FAIL,

as well as another feeble attempt to TROLL.

Connaught Ranger.

[jmanscram]

I'm afraid not, a very small part tried to mutiny for a little while, that doesn't excuse the rest of the history of the regiment's treason. You can't back up claims against Mao so you start with personal attacks. It would seem that you are the troll.

[cwjian]

So what are some of his crimes? Other than defeating the kmt and throwing the un forces out of north korea that is.

Hi! I recommend you look up the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. The Great Leap Forward killed 20 million people, and the Cultural Revolution resulted in chaos and anarchy. And Mao was personally responsible for both.

Good day!

[jmanscram]

That's all propaganda at most 1 million people could have died. The ones executed were criminals, maybe you think drug dealers and exploitative landlords should be applauded, I don't. The great leap forward was an attempt at industrialization, it didn't work out too well but what was the alternative? China had been invaded by foreign nations repeatedly over the past century they had to try to modernize for their own protection. People need to grow up, shooting traitors and criminals is a good thing. A good thing.

[Chulo]

That's all propaganda at most 1 million people could have died. The ones executed were criminals, maybe you think drug dealers and exploitative landlords should be applauded, I don't. The great leap forward was an attempt at industrialization, it didn't work out too well but what was the alternative? China had been invaded by foreign nations repeatedly over the past century they had to try to modernize for their own protection. People need to grow up, shooting traitors and criminals is a good thing. A good thing.
Got any sources to back up your claim?

[gaijinsamurai]

Great Book! Gave it as a present to some friends last christmas. I think it is called "Mao: The Unknown Story" though.

You're right! Thanks for correcting me, seasch! :)

[gaijinsamurai]

Hi! I recommend you look up the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. The Great Leap Forward killed 20 million people, and the Cultural Revolution resulted in chaos and anarchy. And Mao was personally responsible for both.

Good day!


Capitalist Running Dog! Write a self-criticism for your imperialist-inspired lies!!!!

Chairman Mao brought happiness and prosperity, and such criticisms are fabrications of the American/Japanese/Dali lama Sect, inspired out of jealousy of China's worker's paradise.

[jmanscram]

There are many sources to back this up but as i'm not writing a paper you can look them up yourself.

[Chulo]

There are many sources to back this up but as i'm not writing a paper you can look them up yourself.
All the sources i know have more than just a Million and alot of innocent people.. So why dont you tell me where your sources are.. even just 1

[MN_Air]

There are many sources to back this up but as i'm not writing a paper you can look them up yourself.

Your argument is moot you **** muncher. Cite your sources because it is all just crackpottery to the highest degree right now.

[Connaught Ranger]

I'm afraid not, a very small part tried to mutiny for a little while, that doesn't excuse the rest of the history of the regiment's treason. You can't back up claims against Mao so you start with personal attacks. It would seem that you are the troll.

You are full of it, you offer nothing to back up your claims with regards Chairman Dung, whose implementation of the Cutural and Agarian Revolution was responsible for the deaths of millions
of Chinese, many through starvation, when his wonderous new concepts of rice growing failed, while we know he did not personaly kill hundreds of thousands, those implementing is stragies did so in his name (like those Nazis who carried out Hitlers orders) at the end of the day the "boss" is ultinately responsible for the actions of his minions.

You also fail to show evidence of Chairman Dung throwing the U.N. out of Northern Korea, as you claim.

Off topic.

Please do feel free to open a thread and list the "rest of the history of the Regiments treason":roll: as I find it very strange that a British Regiment, consisting of 5 Battalions, in WW1 back to having two battalions at the time of disbandment in 1922 (the "mutiny" was in 1920) would have their Regimental Colours hanging in the Chapel at Windsor Castle along with the other Irish orientated British Regiments who were disbanded on the same day:-

The Royal Munster Fusileers.
The Royal Leinster Fusilieers,
The Royal Dublin Fusileers,
The South Irish Horse,
The Connaught Rangers 1793 - 1922

Or aside from being a defender of the Chairman Dung

are you into a bit of "Paddy" bashing on the side??p-)

Connaught Ranger

[jmanscram]

See you can't fight the truth so you go to insults. Chulo your sources are traitors and propagandists, MN you're a waste of flesh, and Connaught you seem to be "special" if you can't see that Irishmen wearing the british uniform are traitors. So why don't you all go watch 300 or something and leave the historical discussions to grownups.

[Connaught Ranger]

See you can't fight the truth so you go to insults. Chulo your sources are traitors and propagandists, MN you're a waste of flesh, and Connaught you seem to be "special" if you can't see that Irishmen wearing the british uniform are traitors. So why don't you all go watch 300 or something and leave the historical discussions to grownups.

So you still refuse to provide any source for your "claims" about Dung or with regards the Connaught Rangers.

Traitors to what exactly?

Until 1922 there was no such country as the "Republic of Ireland" it was part of the United Kingdom
so any man or woman born on the island of Ireland was a subject of the King or Queen, those Irishmen
who decided out of economic neccesity to join the British Army over the centuries, prior to 1922 could not be traitors as that would imply they betrayed a country that did not exsist had neither an elected Government or its own Constitution.

The men who volunteered to join the British Army did so freely, many of them like the majority of the sons of the Irish peasantry, Protestant or Catholic of the day, had no ambition to be involved in any political rabble rousing and were quite content under British rule, that also explains why no Southern
Irish inserection or rebelion ever managed to get off the ground (including the pi ss poor attempt with a few Frenchmen in Mayo in 1798) and remove the British from the island because the majority
of the people, had no interest in doing so.

Even the men who instigated the 1916 Rebelion in Dublin were spat upon by the common Irishman in the street as they were marched off as prisoners.

Your comments prove you have no grasp of the realities of Irish history or what Chairman Dung was really like.

And as for having a historical discussion with grown ups in your case we wil have to wait for you to get past kindergarten first.

Connaught Ranger.

[MN_Air]

See you can't fight the truth so you go to insults. Chulo your sources are traitors and propagandists, MN you're a waste of flesh, and Connaught you seem to be "special" if you can't see that Irishmen wearing the british uniform are traitors. So why don't you all go watch 300 or something and leave the historical discussions to grownups.
Please see:

Your argument is moot you **** muncher. Cite your sources because it is all just crackpottery to the highest degree right now.


You have yet to provide any sources. Please come back as a grown up with sources, and then we can have a civilized discussion.

[Chulo]

See you can't fight the truth so you go to insults. Chulo your sources are traitors and propagandists, MN you're a waste of flesh, and Connaught you seem to be "special" if you can't see that Irishmen wearing the british uniform are traitors. So why don't you all go watch 300 or something and leave the historical discussions to grownups.
LOL.. ok.. so my sources arnt good enough.. Im still asking for even just 1 of yours..

[BloodyTalon]

I'm afraid not, a very small part tried to mutiny for a little while, that doesn't excuse the rest of the history of the regiment's treason. You can't back up claims against Mao so you start with personal attacks. It would seem that you are the troll.
rofl look who's talking comrade. You have yet to disprove anything presented in the documentary and instead resort to petty insults and unsubstantiated rhetoric that makes Baghdad Bob look like William Buckley. Enjoy your (likely short) stay on this forum making an ass of yourself.

[Clown123]

That's all propaganda at most 1 million people could have died. The ones executed were criminals, maybe you think drug dealers and exploitative landlords should be applauded, I don't. The great leap forward was an attempt at industrialization, it didn't work out too well but what was the alternative? China had been invaded by foreign nations repeatedly over the past century they had to try to modernize for their own protection. People need to grow up, shooting traitors and criminals is a good thing. A good thing.

There had never been a statistics about how many Chinese killed during the "liberation". All the landlords and their families were stripped of their properties. A lot of them were simply killed while facing People's Court. And that's only the beginning.

From all information available, about 20 million Chinese died of famine during the Great Leap Forward. Cannibalism was alleged spreading among some remote country side (e.g., GuangXi province) during the period.

Mao is the sole person who started the Great Leap Forward. He held the supreme power since 1949. China's participation of Korean War was his first taste of dictatorship. Almost all Chinese leaders opposed involvement in Korean War. Mao overruled the oppositions and make a big political movement out of it. He consolidated his power by mobilizing people through propaganda. KangMeiYuanChao (Resisting America and Assisting Korea) was the first of the nation-wide political propaganda campaign and movement. After tasting the power of the political mobilization, he tried more and more and that lead to the Greate Leap Forward and then the Culture Revolution.

[jmanscram]

I wasn't referring to people who starve, people have always starved in china, i was referring to people who could have been executed. I said died but i meant executed. The Great leap forward was the right idea, it just didn't happen to work out. If the us was bombing china and threatening an army on their border then those other "leaders" deserved to be overruled because obviously they weren't looking out for China. Cultural Revolution was done by the kids and brought Mao back into power he wasn't sole leader for the whole time he had fallen out of power and the gang of four was in.

[BloodyTalon]

I wasn't referring to people who starve, people have always starved in china, i was referring to people who could have been executed. I said died but i meant executed. The Great leap forward was the right idea, it just didn't happen to work out. If the us was bombing china and threatening an army on their border then those other "leaders" deserved to be overruled because obviously they weren't looking out for China. Cultural Revolution was done by the kids and brought Mao back into power he wasn't sole leader for the whole time he had fallen out of power and the gang of four was in.
You seriously believe that forcing farmers to smelt steel instead of tending to their crops was a bright idea? What kind of pot do they have in your country and where can I get a kilo?

The famine caused by the Great Leap Forward was entirely man-made, hence why Mao Zedong is righfully blamed for the deaths caused by such a failed economic plan. Also, your history of the Cultural Revolution is just as lovingly skewed; the Gang of Four was Mao's inner circle who supported the Cultural Revolution even after his death. The politicians who led China prior to Mao taking a leisurely swim then deciding to screw over his country again were Liu Shaoqi, Zhou Enlai, and Deng Xiaoping.

[Confuse]

the book is a different view of the mao era... the problem with it is that the author june chung has a anti-mao anti-PRC view point so it isn't as objective as if someone was speaking from a neutral point as a three party observer without agenda.


my view point of the issue is that the failings of the great leap forward years were the result of mao micro managing an issue that he knew little about (he was good at revolution but awful at peacetime nation building) and overriding those around him that would be much better at the job of building up the nation, as a result famine and stagnation resulted and people died. All the people that could have really helped in building a NEW china was either killed off, purged or fled to hong kong or taiwan with the retreating ROC government or overseas, the communist PRC rise was a peasant uprising with the resulting problems of the uneducated masses having control of a country they didn't know how to run

the cultural revolution on the other hand IMHO was a internal power struggle with mao and the gang of four returning to top power (the previous failures of the great leap forward cause mao to lose influence to others in power within the communist party as other power centers toke advantage of mao's mistake and pushed him out of top power during the late 50's early 60's era) , the cult of personality was both a power grab and purge along with a orgy of revolution just for the sake of revolution (think of it as the salem witch hunt mix with USA 50's macartherism but for the communist ideology) , the social fabric self destructing trying to reach a fantasy communist ideal that was unreachable..

in short the cultural revolution was HELL and a disaster for EVERYONE even the communist party, the only beneficiaries were mao himself as he return to unrivaled power with the masses of red guard (mainly just brainwashed children stuck in a cult) supporting his growing megalomania of delusional power and later the gang of four taking over from behind the scenes as mao was dieing and full attempt to gain control of the country through dictatorship after his death

[Connaught Ranger]

I wasn't referring to people who starve, people have always starved in china, i was referring to people who could have been executed. I said died but i meant executed. The Great leap forward was the right idea, it just didn't happen to work out. If the us was bombing china and threatening an army on their border then those other "leaders" deserved to be overruled because obviously they weren't looking out for China. Cultural Revolution was done by the kids and brought Mao back into power he wasn't sole leader for the whole time he had fallen out of power and the gang of four was in.

So if you want to engage in open debate you need to formulate and write exactly what you mean, other forum members can not be expected to guess what you mean. And a large part of your above post is only making excuses for Comrade Dung.

But the U.S. was not bombing China, so the use of "IF" is pointless as an excuse.:cantbeli:

Connaught Ranger.

[gaijinsamurai]

the book is a different view of the mao era... the problem with it is that the author june chung has a anti-mao anti-PRC view point so it isn't as objective as if someone was speaking from a neutral point as a three party observer without agenda.



I don't think anyone who reads the book thinks there's "objectivity". How can any Chinese person who lived through those years be "objective"? And how can any Chinese person with any sense of intelligence or compassion have the opinion that Mao was anything less than a monster? It seems that by your criteria, the only type of person who could write a decent biography of the dictator would be a non-Chinese, and I don't agree.

"Objectivity" is something that a writer should try to achieve, but in many cases it is simply impossible. When this is the case, the writer or journalist should try to recognize the areas in which they are subjective and acknowledge how those biases affect their research and writing. I think Chang does this, and I don't see where the events that effected her family stood in the way of facts. And she has also been critical of the pre-Revolution conditions that made the Communist victory all but inevitable. In addition to Mao, she has strong words for Chaing Khai Shek, the warlords, The West, and everyone who let China fall into the disasters of Mao's rule. Even if a non-Chinese person, or some Chinese citizen who miraculously avoided the effects of the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, purges, and famines (all but impossible) wrote a biography, how could they avoid mentioning those things?

[Clown123]

I wasn't referring to people who starve, people have always starved in china, i was referring to people who could have been executed. I said died but i meant executed. The Great leap forward was the right idea, it just didn't happen to work out. If the us was bombing china and threatening an army on their border then those other "leaders" deserved to be overruled because obviously they weren't looking out for China. Cultural Revolution was done by the kids and brought Mao back into power he wasn't sole leader for the whole time he had fallen out of power and the gang of four was in.

Chinese involvement in KW was way earlier than Oct 1950. Mao gave NK at least 3 full divisions of PLA to form the backbone of the NKPA around 1949-1950. We can even argue that without these experienced and combat hardden PLA soldiers, KIM Il-Sung would not have the military superiority to invade the South in 1950. Furthermore, Mao was fully aware of Kim's aggression by May 1950. Stalin, as an old cunning fox, told Kim to get Mao's approval and backup before launching the attack. Mao duly gave Kim the green light and promised to send troops to assist NK if necessary. What Mao and Kim miscalculated was that they believed the U.S. would not directly involve herself. They were expecting to face ex-IJA troops rearmed by the U.S.

The so-called US bombing China was a communist propaganda blowing some border incidents out of proportion. Mao decided to send in the troops on Oct 10, 1950. Before that date, there were 8 incursions by the UN airplanes on Aug 27, 29, and Sep 22. The first two days' incursions included strafing the junks on the Yalu River by the fighters and caused 7 dead, 28 injured. Given the average 250-350 sorties every day during the period, and the in-accurate navigation system of the era, we can see this kind of navigational errors were due to happen. However, after the incidents, the UN side put the restriction on the flights near the Chinese border. There was not an incident for almost a month, till on Sep 22 that one B-29 bomber lost its way and dropped 12 bombs on Andong by mistake. This bombing injured two people and caused some property damages.

So the "boming" could not have been a factor affecting Mao's decision. The other Chinese leaders all still opposed seding in the troops by early October. They certainly had pondered the (in)significance of the events.

[Chulo]

I wasn't referring to people who starve, people have always starved in china, i was referring to people who could have been executed. I said died but i meant executed. The Great leap forward was the right idea, it just didn't happen to work out. If the us was bombing china and threatening an army on their border then those other "leaders" deserved to be overruled because obviously they weren't looking out for China. Cultural Revolution was done by the kids and brought Mao back into power he wasn't sole leader for the whole time he had fallen out of power and the gang of four was in.

Blaa blaa blaa.. you can say anything you want, but you have not even given Chinese sources to back up what you are saying

[harryc]

the book is a different view of the mao era... the problem with it is that the author june chung has a anti-mao anti-PRC view point so it isn't as objective as if someone was speaking from a neutral point as a three party observer without agenda.



For a different perspective "The Kremlin's scholar: a memoir of Soviet politics under Stalin and Khrushchev" by D. T. Shepilov, Stephen is quiet illuminating - he spends the last few chapters on a trip he took as part of the soviet delegation to Beijing , in short Mao was like Stalin, in the cultural revolution (consolidating power in one person), and like Khrushchev in the great leap forward (tragically incompetent, with dire consequences). The image he paints of China in the 50's shows how far they have come in such a short time. The tale of his career shows that there are more shades of gray than most of us see.

and thanks for the short lesson on the Connaught Rangers.

[jmanscram]

Chinese involvement in KW was way earlier than Oct 1950. Mao gave NK at least 3 full divisions of PLA to form the backbone of the NKPA around 1949-1950.


You fail to mention that those men were koreans who went to China to fight the Japanese.

I don't know why this is even called a forum any alternative view point earns an infraction. Buck the Frits and the DOBS.

[Connaught Ranger]

You fail to mention that those men were koreans who went to China to fight the Japanese.

I don't know why this is even called a forum any alternative view point earns an infraction. Buck the Frits and the DOBS.

Your infraction was given no doubt on you being such a prat and you are not helping yourself with such comments as above.

[Chulo]

You fail to mention that those men were koreans who went to China to fight the Japanese.

I don't know why this is even called a forum any alternative view point earns an infraction. Buck the Frits and the DOBS.
Infractions come from being an idiot, not for having a different view point.

And you still have not given any sources for your "claims"

[Hongjian]

hmmm... why so girly and emotional, people?

I thought this is a 'professional' military forum, where we talk in a cold and sciencetific manner about 'military history and tactics', as named after this sub-forum.

Nonetheless, the issue of the Chinese Involvement in the Korean War was a completely different matter. Some of the 10 legendary marshalls of the young PRC opposed the involvement not because of 'moral' or 'political' issues, but simply because they thought that they couldnt win against the US technological superiority. But the masterfully planned tactical surprise and early successes had shut them up and boosted the moral of the PLA leadership for further involvement.

As for the involvement itself, I can only quote Comrade Xinhui's very well researched and objectively written article about the Chinese 'Active Defense'-Doctrine, with what the Korean War can pretty much be described as the first 'active-defense'-war ever in PRC's history.


PRC (People's Republic of China) concept of active defense:
After 1949, majorities the military campaign the PLA conducted was not aiming at expland territories, but rather in what the Chinese called active defense. Active defense calls for a quick reaction before enemies are ready to strike, preferably on their own territory. Active defense has two elements. First is to minimize damage to China' own infrastructure, by conducting the war at enemy's backyard. Secondly is to create a psychological or political shock to the enemy, by upsetting the enemy's strategy and expectations, and acquiesce in a new status quo that is much more favorable to China. Many times those two elements of active defense come together to PRC leadership's push for war. When they felt the threats, imaginary or real, the PRC would order the PLA to strike first.

The Korean War Example:
The reason PRC sent 600,000 troops to aid the North Korean was party due to the threat of MacArthur would carry the war to North China, especially during the last months of 1952, when US troops were cross the Yalu River on number of occasions [4] (http://www.china-defense.com/history/sino-vn_1/sino-vn_1-6.html). The PRC's contingency plan called for attack once the UN cross the line [Yalu], with fully calculated knowledge that many of the PVA will not return. But due to the 'intelligence failure' on the UN/US side, the PVA accomplished the tactical surprise it planed for [5] (http://www.china-defense.com/history/sino-vn_1/sino-vn_1-6.html). This is the first example of the active defense carry out by the PLA, as stated in the active defense doctrine, China did not gain any territory.


This very concept of chinese defense-doctrine must be understood, to analyse the other wars of the republic. So the Korean War involvement was mainly an act out of the official defense-policy back then, and not just Mao's own arbitrary decision.

[Clown123]

You fail to mention that those men were koreans who went to China to fight the Japanese.

I don't know why this is even called a forum any alternative view point earns an infraction. Buck the Frits and the DOBS.

The 3+ divisions of PLA troops sent to North Korea before Korean War were Korean Chinese who had their families settled in Manchuria for years or even generations. The real Koreans who went to Manchuria to fight Japanese (aka Korean Volunteers, ChaoXianYiYongJun) had returned to North Korea before 1948.

According to a document by PRC State Department on July 18, 1956, Chinese government recognized these soldiers as Chinese citizens serving in NKPA and it gave the instructions on how to arrange civilian jobs for them, as a compensation, once they demobilized from NKPA and returned to China. It cited a 1953 number from North Korean government that there were around 18,000 Korean Chinese serving in NKPA at the moment. By 1955, some 13,000 of them had returned home (Manchuria).

Actually it was told that there were another 20-30K of Korean Chinese mobilized to rebuild NKPA in 1950-1951, when NKPA flee to Manchuria in late 1950. The above number should also include soldiers in this 2nd batch.

[ColinP]

One of Mao's gang accused him of killing upwards to 80 million, but it seems most sources point towards about 20million deaths

[retaxis]

As most could agree, Mao did a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. Good things of course including driving out the KMT, reunifying all of china, pushed mandarin as dominant language, and of course pushing back the UN in the korean war. The stuff he did bad? there is a list as well.

But fact is he should have stood down instead of held power until he died. He was a transformational leader and a tough guy during wartime however someone better, such as Deng, would have avoided certain disasters from occuring. Whether he killed millions or not through starvation and etc, he only wanted the best for his country and is still admired by many Chinese (not for the wrong doings) but for national pride and glory purposes.

[Clown123]

As most could agree, Mao did a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. Good things of course including driving out the KMT, reunifying all of china, pushed mandarin as dominant language, and of course pushing back the UN in the korean war. The stuff he did bad? there is a list as well.

But fact is he should have stood down instead of held power until he died. He was a transformational leader and a tough guy during wartime however someone better, such as Deng, would have avoided certain disasters from occuring. Whether he killed millions or not through starvation and etc, he only wanted the best for his country and is still admired by many Chinese (not for the wrong doings) but for national pride and glory purposes.

The admiration part I can agree but I am not sure Mao was really for China's good after he grabbed the absolute power.

China's involvement in KW, in retrospect, was more of Mao's personal desire to play the revolutionary lead in Asia, second only to Stalin, as the world-wide lead. Without looking at this ideological background, it's hard to understand why Mao got involved early on and still insisted to send in more troops even when the table was turned on NKPA in Sept 1950.

As I mentioned before, KW was the first time that Mao weld the absolute power over all his comrades. Unfortunately, it proved he was right (in the sense that China could withhold the foreigner pressure under the backing of USSR). KW paved the way for his dictatorship. He spent the next 20 years to eliminate old comrades. As an intellectual so familiar with Chinese history himself, Mao certainly knew he was doing exactly what Zhu Yuan-Zhang (AD 1328-1398), the first emperor of Ming Dynasty, did. Zhu killed most of his old comrades who helped him found the Ming empire and even got rid of the prime minister who was supposed to help him run the country. Ming was one of the few dynasties in Chiense history that the emperors had the absolute power. It was also one of the most corrupted dynasties.

Mao was a great strategist and power player. We can give him that. However, he did not know how to run a country.

[Hongjian]

About the Korean War, there are quite different intepretations about it.
Mainly -because- the NKPA was near the brink of destruction, China's security interest was at it stakes.

As I posted before, the Doctrine of Active Defense kicked in. China couldnt allow the destruction of North Korea, and had to attack preemtively to advert a unfavorable status quo on the peninsula - namely, a US dominated, unified Korea. The PVA's involvement in the KW, was actually a great success - politically and militarily; since it proved that the young PRC can withstand superior western military might and basically has build up a useful buffer-state on its borders, while denying the West an active, highly militarized front with China along the Yalu-River.

The Korean War was nothing but favorable for China. Of course his own power-politics and ambitions to be his own regional communist leader beside Stalin, was also a reason for him to go into war. But one shouldn't forget, that Mao originally prepared his troops, who where to move to Korea, basically as the invasion-force to invade taiwan and to finish off the KMT.
Basically, the KW was also favorable for the KMT. Because if the PRC hadnt been involved into the KW, Taiwan would face a giant invasion they couldnt have survived.


And about the Ming Dynasty... One cannot say that they are 'the most corrupted' Dynasty. The Song, the Jin and the late Han were even more corrupted. The Ming dynasty was more one of the strongest and most influencial of all Chinese dynasties. The Ming basically stood for China's past overwhelming military and political might in Asia, with Korea being a vassall-state and many more tributary tribes on the Ming-empire's borders. The Ming empire basically had the potantial to easily be the sole world power back then.

[gaijinsamurai]

As most could agree, Mao did a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. Good things of course including driving out the KMT, reunifying all of china, pushed mandarin as dominant language, and of course pushing back the UN in the korean war.....

Yeah, it's great that Kim Il Sung's/Kim Jong Il's "Juche Paradise" was able to continue, to the benefit of millions of happy North Korean people. The United Nations just wanted to exploit them.

[Hongjian]

Yeah, it's great that Kim Il Sung's/Kim Jong Il's "Juche Paradise" was able to continue, to the benefit of millions of happy North Korean people. The United Nations just wanted to exploit them.


I agree.

It was certainly great for China. And since Mao was the leader of China, this is everything that counts.

[gaijinsamurai]

Agreed, Hongjian. North Korea's regime has indeed been good for China. Acts like the abductions of South Korean, Japanese, and other nationals, terrorist acts like the bombing of South Korean government members in Burma, and periodic attacks against the South have kept the US and Sotuh Korea on edge, and have diverted attention away from some of China's less savory policies. And all the while, China can lend support to the North Korean government, while publically voicing "displeasure" at their policies and offering their services as a "mediator".

It's good for China. :)

[Hongjian]

Yup. in a world of power politics, there's nothing as delicious as a loyal puppet.

[gaijinsamurai]

The US has had its share of puppets too.