Why does every assault rifle produced comes with a LMG version of of it?

[matthew.manhorn]

119821
L86 LSW


119822 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Colt-automatic-rifle.jpg)
Colt automatic rifle


119823
RPK

They all look like extended assault rifles with a bipod on

Why??? I've never seen these weapons in any war photos. You usually see Americans / Brits / Russians use M60+m249/GPMG+m249/PKM for support fire.http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/misc/pencil.png

[LineDoggie]

Marketing, if a country adopts them the Soldiers are already fairly familiar with how it operates if its based on the Standard Issue Rifle.

Familiarity= Less Training time needed, Uses common Ammo/Magazines throughout the section

And I would say the LSW & RPK are seen used in Numerous Pictures. I've yet to see actual US forces using the Colt

[kinney_bmx]

Yeah, The LSW and RPK theres pictures. The Dutch Marines IIRC use the Diemaco version of the Colt LMG

[Panchito12]

Simplicity of logistics, maintenance, and training. It demonstrates the versatility of modern firearms.

[matthew.manhorn]

Marketing, if a country adopts them the Soldiers are already fairly familiar with how it operates if its based on the Standard Issue Rifle.

Familiarity= Less Training time needed, Uses common Ammo/Magazines throughout the section

And I would say the LSW & RPK are seen used in Numerous Pictures. I've yet to see actual US forces using the Colt

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but L86 LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare

[kinney_bmx]

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare
Well there was pictures of some British unit training for Afghanistan equiped with the LSW, so they might have taken them. There is a couple picture of the LSW in Afghanistan. I have them in a book.

[tercio67]

Yeah, The LSW and RPK theres pictures. The Dutch Marines IIRC use the Diemaco version of the Colt LMG

About a 150 of them came with the Diemaco's we bought, they were given to the Marines, as they have only 2 infantry battalions. I believe Diemaco thought that if we liked them we would buy/equip the whole of the armed forces with them, we chose the minimi instead.

edit: The Dutch Marines currently deployed in Afghanistan use it there.

[Britishhawk]

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but L86 LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare

Oh look its the LSW in Afghanistan..

http://i40.tinypic.com/2j4twe0.jpg

[matthew.manhorn]

Well look at this version of the Colt Automatic rifle for the A1, why bother when you have M60?

119824

[tercio67]

Well look at this version of the Colt Automatic rifle for the A1, why bother when you have M60?

119824

The idea behind these weapons, as stated previously, is mainly ammunition commonality and a reduction in weight.

[LineDoggie]

Well look at this version of the Colt Automatic rifle for the A1, why bother when you have M60?

119824
Doctrinal Roles, that M16A1 version is the Browning Automatic Rifle role within the section.

The M-60 is a Platoon level asset used on a tripod firing along fixed lines in the defence, ala the Browning M1919A4 and on the bipod in Assaults, ala Browning M1919A6.

From FM 7-8 Infantry Platoon and Squad


Machine Guns. M60 (7.62-mm) machine guns are the platoon's primary weapons against a dismounted enemy. They provide a high volume of lethal, accurate fires to break up enemy assaults. They also provide limited effects against lightly armored vehicles and cause vehicle crews to button-up and operate with reduced effectiveness. Leaders position machine guns to--

Concentrate fires where they want to kill the enemy.
Fire across the platoon front.
Cover obstacles by fire.
Tie-in with adjacent units.
(1) The following definitions apply to the employment of machine guns.

(a) Grazing fire. Grazing fire occurs when the center of the cone of fire dots not rise more than 1 meter (about waist high) above the ground. When firing over level or uniformly sloping terrain, a maximum of 600 meters of grazing fire can be obtained.

(b) Dead space. Dead space is an area within the maximum effective range of a weapon, surveillance device, or observer that cannot be covered by fire and observation from a given position because of intervening obstacles, the nature of the ground, the characteristics of the trajectory, or the limitations of the pointing capabilities of the systems. The platoon covers dead space with another direct fire weapon, M203 fire, indirect fires, or mines (command-detonated Claymores). Additionally, the platoon leader should attempt to tic-in obstacles (wire and mines) and fires to cover dead space. He may also position OPs to observe dead space for another position.

(c) Final protective line. A final protective line (FPL) is a predetermined line along which grazing fire is placed to stop an enemy assault. Where terrain allows, the platoon leader assigns a machine gun an FPL. Once in position, one soldier from the machine gun team walks the FPL to identify both dead space and grazing fire along its length

(d) Principle direction of fire. A principle direction of fire (PDF) is a priority direction of fire assigned to cover an area which provides good fields of fire or has a likely avenue of approach. It is also used to provide mutual support to an adjacent unit. Guns are laid on the PDF if an FPL cannot be assigned due to terrain. If a PDF is assigned and other targets are not being engaged, guns are laid on the PDF.
(2) Each gun is given a primary and secondary sector of fire. Their sectors of fire should overlap each other and those of adjacent platoons. A gunner fires in his secondary sector only if there are no targets in his primary sector, or when ordered to do so. Each gun's primary sector includes an FPL or a PDF The gun is laid on the FPL or PDF unless engaging other targets. When FPFs are called for, the gunner shifts to and engages on the FPL or PDF

[Wahnsinn]

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but L86 LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare

Forget the name of the place in Africa where some Royal Marines got kidnapped or something (pretty hazy for me, I was fairly young when it happened) but I remember seeing pictures of British Forces using the L86 (?) there.

[-[Crosshair]-]

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but L86 LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare

Someone's talking out of their ass again on mp.net, alert the forums police.

Machine guns and these heavy barreled/bipod-equipped versions of rifles have gigantic different roles.

[kinney_bmx]

Oh look its the LSW in Afghanistan..
Thats the picture I was thinking of, I guess it was training IN not for Afghanistan

ps. you basically got pwned matthew

[greendzflash]

well, ours ALWAYS stay behind on rear party.

no need for them. we have minimi, sa80, gpmg lt role, L129a1 and 40mm UGL at section level.

plus no one wants them. no one ever wanted them.

[ayanami_tard]

commonality,interchangeable parts,that sort of thing pops in mind

some design (like rpk) works,some(well,i don't want to mention this part) don't

[sigmeister]

Forget the name of the place in Africa where some Royal Marines got kidnapped or something (pretty hazy for me, I was fairly young when it happened) but I remember seeing pictures of British Forces using the L86 (?) there.

Sierra Leone, perhaps? Few soldiers from the Royal Irish Regiment (British Army) were kidnapped.

[ayanami_tard]

west side boys conflict?

yeah it is in sierra leone

[deagle]

versatility of the weapons system with common parts also

[Wahnsinn]

Sierra Leone, perhaps? Few soldiers from the Royal Irish Regiment (British Army) were kidnapped.

That is the one, couldn't remember the name, thanks.

[greendzflash]

versatility of the weapons system with common parts also

yep, if the OTHER weapon is any good.

[dangerdan87]

Well, what about actual combat pictures? Pretty sure RPK74 is used in Chechnya, but L86 LSW in Afghanistan and Iraq? Don't think so

Colt automatic rifle and LSW weren't used in the military in actual warfare

The Colt automatic rifle was used in the very early parts of OEF. US Marines (very few) had them when the SAW wasn't available to them at the time.

[big_les]

LSW most certainly has been to war. It's just not very good. The A1 had all the failings of the rifle variant, but even heavier, with split groups on auto and a ludicrous girder on the front of it that was bodged on there at the last minute to firm things up. Once Minimi was acquired in numbers, the A2 LSW was marginalised - at one point it was to be re-roled as a DMR, but that was dropped too and it found itself in the hands of unlucky sentries and in training. The GPMGs (M240) had already been broken out. LSW was meant to replace GPMG - instead we not only kept it, but supplemented with Minimi.

I think it's safe to say that assault-rifle based LSWs in general are a compromise too far. You're better off with a dedicated LMG and DMR, both in a heavier calibre.

[greendzflash]

LSW most certainly has been to war. It's just not very good. The A1 had all the failings of the rifle variant, but even heavier, with split groups on auto and a ludicrous girder on the front of it that was bodged on there at the last minute to firm things up. Once Minimi was acquired in numbers, the A2 LSW was marginalised - at one point it was to be re-roled as a DMR, but that was dropped too and it found itself in the hands of unlucky sentries and in training. The GPMGs (M240) had already been broken out. LSW was meant to replace GPMG - instead we not only kept it, but supplemented with Minimi.

I think it's safe to say that assault-rifle based LSWs in general are a compromise too far. You're better off with a dedicated LMG and DMR, both in a heavier calibre.


agree 100%.

and hooray as we now have both.


and i think i speak for my regt if not the majority of the british army...(except the SASC)

[greendzflash]

this thread is dying but it could turn into a good debate...

come on fellas

[gaijinsamurai]

I can't disagree with you, greendzflash!

There are just too many necessary differences, such as belt feed tray vs. magazine well, quick-change barrel ability, etc., to make light machine gun versons of rifles a practicality.

[budgie]

It seems that so many rifle makers in the old days were releasing LSWs (the Colt, Steyr and Enfield). The Soviet RPK and its copies certainly achieved greater currency than its western counterparts. But somewhere in the eighties/nineties most of the west just fell in love with the Minimi. Nobody wanted a slightly heavier rifle with the same old ammo cap (or a couple of bursts more) when they could spew out a 200 round drum from the SAW.

[greendzflash]

I can't disagree with you, greendzflash!

There are just too many necessary differences, such as belt feed tray vs. magazine well, quick-change barrel ability, etc., to make light machine gun versons of rifles a practicality.

i think, and this is just me, that it SEEMS like a good thing. interchangable parts, less trg time, less armourers time...etc etc.

but in the real world. you need a bit more.

take the LSW. ffs. same as l85 (for you muricans ;) ) or sa80 but its just wrong. for a start the sight is the same mag. if you want it to go to greater dist, shouldnt it have a x6 mag?

bipod is just wrong.. its no good, it just gets in the way. interchangeable parts? howmany times has a sa80 FP broke or bolt cracked etc.

and finally it is only mag fed. and the only mags we get with it are 30 rd mags. and the rest of the section are s'posed to carry them for you!!

the minimi on the other hand is belf fed but can take a mag if needed.

[RAFREGT.]

agree 100%.

and hooray as we now have both.


and i think i speak for my regt if not the majority of the british army...(except the SASC)

And the RAF Regiment!:lol:

[greendzflash]

And the RAF Regiment!:lol:


i meant you lot as well..no really i did!

;)

[greendzflash]

c'mon fellas, there has gota be more opinions than tis...read the thread!!

[gaijinsamurai]

Nobody wants to argue with someone from 3 Para!! :)

[greendzflash]

Nobody wants to argue with someone from 3 Para!! :)


oooh c'mon, thats unfair.

people got their right to their own opinion. this thread could go on as long as a tankie thread....unless there isnt anyone one who agree's with long barrel versions of assault rifles....?

[gaijinsamurai]

It seems that so many rifle makers in the old days were releasing LSWs (the Colt, Steyr and Enfield). The Soviet RPK and its copies certainly achieved greater currency than its western counterparts. But somewhere in the eighties/nineties most of the west just fell in love with the Minimi. Nobody wanted a slightly heavier rifle with the same old ammo cap (or a couple of bursts more) when they could spew out a 200 round drum from the SAW.

Budgie said it well.

[Arnie100]

Yep. And notice that countries who adopted an LSW version of their service rifle eventually switched to a variant of the Minimi?

[savushka]

AFAIK, in the Russian army what is way more popular then the RPK itself, is it's 45-round mags, used on an Ak-74

http://i035.radikal.ru/0801/4f/de62d2f31fec.jpg

[RAFREGT.]

I recall being deployed into Belfast once from a rural AOR...with the LSW....hmmmm...didn't draw attention to me much!!! wasn't to happy when the local kids kept asking if i was a sniper!
I haven't seen the LSWs out of the armoury,in years for Ops and its certainly only brought on ops for the obligatory gate/Sanger duties now.
I could see what the MOD were trying to do, reducing the infantryman's load, common parts and ammo etc but we in the RAF Regt, never replaced our GPMGs with it for Ops...just didnt make sense!

I think, as has already been said, a magazine fed support weapon isn't generally what you need when you need suppress an area...LSW was too accurate for that too.

[Corrupt]

I think, as has already been said, a magazine fed support weapon isn't generally what you need when you need suppress an area...LSW was too accurate for that too.
Agreed. In my very limited experience, I'v yet to see a purpose for a support weapon that has the same magazine capacity of every other rifle in the section

[Gus]

If you are trying to sell a weapon you don't want to risk loosing the sale because a competitor is offering something you didn't. In other words, if the 'other guy' has designed his weapon as a 'family' of weapons you had better also.

We all know that the people who write the checks are never the same people that have to actually use the weapon and phrases like 'commonality of parts', 'shorter training cycle' and 'universal magazines and ammo' sound very good to bean-counters.

[flanker7]

IMO rifle based LMGs is a product oriented towards the politicians that make the desicion on what the Military gets.
That means they are cheaper than a propper LMG and the desk-jockeys find the excuse they need to by the cheaper crap for their soldiers

[martinexsquaddie]

The long silly weapon seemed like a good idea it patently wasn't. I can't imagine why the USMC are trying to bend the laws of physics .
its an idea that works on paperand in MW2 :) just not in real life.
unfortunately even if you could fit 100 round mags to the lsw it would just overheat.
best cut up for carbines or given to the acf where its awkwardness means they shoot it ****e safer all round.

even the short range dessert group have binned they as you can't pose with them:)

[greendzflash]

Myth! No weapon is too accurate.

no, support weapons are "s'posed" to have a beaten zone.

the reason the LSW has been sacked to rear party by most brit units is because its rubbish. as mentioned mags on a support weapon which leads to loss of fire at the right moment. the distribution of ammo amongst the section, the crap bipod loss of stopping power of the ammo at great range etc etc. i
t was a "gimick" that was already bought into as a "family" of weapons that, when it actually reached the soldier, had been forty + years in R&D and the MOD wasnt gonna just say no.

i'm all for weapons, like the minimi, that can take mags in an emergency but support weapons with mags?.... c'mon.

[bababooey]

I remember the M60 (and so does my back). It was a heavier hitter that could back up the lighter M-16A1's. We got the M-249 and loved it. Lightened the load, plus sustained auto fire and could use M16 mag's in a pinch (just not very well). I've read about the Singapore-built SAW and thought it would be a better gun then the 249 because of its lightness. Does anyone have experience with it?

[gaijinsamurai]

The Singapore SAW looks cool. I heard/read somewhere that it had problems with reliability. I'll try to find something substantial....

[gaijinsamurai]

http://www.ultimaxsaw.com/

[Corrupt]

[QUOTE=powerwheelie;4910486]It's still just a myth. Machine guns are for killing people, not scaring them...[QUOTE]
Well yes, but unfortunately people dont line up like waterloo anymore. You want a MG to have a beaten zone, as GreenDZ said. If all the rounds are landing on top of each other, theres no suppression more than a couple of yards either way. Its like Naval Guns these days have randomism algorithms built into them for firing onto the shore because otherwise all the shells would land on top of each other, rather than taking out a large area. Accuracy is good, but not always the be all and end all

[bababooey]

There was an FM manual on employing the M-60. It was interesting in that it showed how to use it in beaten zones, which we did not think about. Instead of line of sight, rounds could be used to impact low spots where troops could hide. Other stuff I can't remember, but there was a science to effectively employing it.

[gaijinsamurai]

Some of my memories of being in the most misery were from times I was carrying an M60.
If one really, really insists on being issued one, at least try to avoid being in a light infantry unit!

[martinexsquaddie]

put a belt fed machine gun on a tripod and fire between 30 to 50 round burst and you will get proper beaten zones that will really upset your enemy.
As my brother who is in an SF platoon puts it sniper one shot one kill 1500m pah 1800m iron sights get some:)
light role point and shoot the beaten zone is not worth toffee.