A question about the origin of the M43 7.62x39mm cartridge.

[KVLG]

I have heard it said that the M43 may have been derived from a earlier German cartridge designed by GeCo. I also recall Mr. Tony Williams saying some pretty interesting things about it. I would like to know more about the matter.

[Hollis]

I have heard it said that the M43 may have been derived from a earlier German cartridge designed by GeCo. I also recall Mr. Tony Williams saying some pretty interesting things about it. I would like to know more about the matter.


That and probably the other German intermediate round probably had some influence on design. With developments no one lives in a void, each military watches what the other military are using. The need for a intermediate round for the military became very apparent in WWII, with the spread in use of Select fire/FA rifles and the use of magazines. Saying it was derived from, might be giving GeCo a little too much credit.

[big_les]

From Tony's own assault rifles article;


Some sources claim that the 7.62x39 was no more than a copy of a German Geco cartridge for the Vollmer M 35 carbine, designed in 1934/35 by the aforementioned H.G.Winter. However, as we have seen, the cartridges designed for that gun were quite different, having larger case diameters. The round often cited as the model for the M1943 is the 7.62x38.5 "Mittelpatrone", but the diameter of that case is also larger than the M1943's and, according to Dynamit Nobel (Geco's postwar parent company), it dates from 1960; it appears that it was in fact inspired by the M1943, not the other way round. There is therefore no known German cartridge of which the 7.62x39 M1943 could have been a copy. The authors of a Russian history of the M1943, who had access to Soviet archives, were unable to find reliable information as to whether the USSR had any previous knowledge of the development of intermediate rounds in the West.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

[Roaming East]

People love trying to claim that every weapon system since 1940 was a rip off of some genius, divinely inspired German device. In this case you have 2 nations who came to the same conclusion that they wanted more punch then a pistol cartridge but less than their full size rifle cartridges. That both nations do the exact same thing (chopping their existing cartridge roughly in half and calling it a day) seems to be beyond the realm of coincidence.

[Jippo]

The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo. German Third Reich was, however, just about adopting the 7.9 x 33 mm Polte cartridge, because of it's already standard size of bullet, rifle bore and rifling grooves, along with the case head and extractor groove dimensions similar to those of 7.9 x 57 mm Mauser case. GeCo had the production capacity of MANNLICHER-CARCANO cases, but all the other German producers of rifle caliber cartridges had the machinery adjusted for MAUSER case heads. Polte was biggest of them, having plants everywhere in The Reich, including the most remote Germany's provinces, like Poland.

Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.

GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle. There were actually three models of Vollmer machine carbines made since 1934 until 1938, but they were all too fine (read: expensive) arms for military issue, even for the special troops, with their all-machined and hand-fitted parts. Carbines had action with annular gas piston around the barrel, behind the muzzle, and too many delicate parts. Heeres Waffenamt (Weaponry Office of German armed forces) turned down the last, and most complicated, "A 35/III" carbine in 30th August 1938.

More about the subject matter:
Origin of AK Assault rifle and 7.62x39 cartridge
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html

P.T. Kekkonen (died few years ago) was a quite an authority with plenty of expertise. Whole series of writings at http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ is warmly recommended.

[oldsoak]

Why would the Russians be unable to develop an intermediate cartridge on their own ?

[Jippo]

Why would the Russians be unable to develop an intermediate cartridge on their own ?

Who says they couldn't? I mean it is quite obvious that they can when you look at the 5.45x39. But we are talking about the history of the 7.62x39 M43 round.