Japanese "Super Sub"

[skipperbob]

Just watched a program on PBS tonight about a Japanese plan to use extra large submarines to carry aircraft close to the US to bomb key targets and also the Panama Canal. I have read about these I - 400 class submarines and I always thought it was a waste of time and resources and yet the "experts" on this program tried to equate the Japanese effort with Germany's secret weapons and the US atomic bomb program!

I just don't see any way that these subs would have made any impact at all - they could only carry three aircraft with one bomb each, the planes top speed was 200mph and the submarines themselves were big, fat slow targets. They would have to travel 8,000 miles to get within range to launch their aircraft and they would have been sitting ducks for the US Navy ASW forces. Frankly I was amazed and disappointed that such a limited weapon with no real value was given this kind of coverage on this program as if it were a "Super Weapon" to be feared by the US.

Any one else see this show or have any thoughts? Did I miss something that could possibly have made this work? Are they running out of ideas for history programs?

[TheKiwi]

Nope, they were pretty much as you described, a great big waste of resources that would never have achieved anything.

[Mastermind]

Well...just think of the Japanese mentality over the "useless" Dolittle Raid. They were horribly embarrassed, and that raid ended up tying down countless war resources at home as a protection agaisnt another one. They were not thinking such an exploit would be useless with their subs. Think about six of these subs, ranging up and down the US coast and Panama. They would be very hard to detect and intercept (by the technology of the day) and just a few successful hits on American soil would have an impact far outweighing the expense and effort.

[goat89]

Blue Submarine No. 6. 'Nuff said.

[TheKiwi]

By the time they were ready to sail, only a "walk on water" level miracle was going to save the Japanese from defeat. Perhaps if they'd told their submarine commanders to raid the US supply lines instead of trying to get capital ships, they may have dragged the island battles on for a little longer. But that was totally against their attack at all costs philosophy. Come early August 1945, there was no way any amount of giant submarines was going to make any difference.

[Ought Six]

If the plan to use planes launched from those subs to drop anthrax spores on American west coast cities had come to fruition, it would have been truly horrifying.

[Alfacentori]

Didn't the IJN launch some floatplanes from submarines over US west coast cities in the first year of the war, I thought I read that somewhere, and they caused considerable panic?

Edit: Might have been what I was thinking of

http://www.historynet.com/japanese-bomb-the-continental-u-s-west-coast.htm

Alfa

[TheKiwi]

If the Japanese were going to drop anthrax anywhere, it was going to be in China. 1st rule of WMD, only use them where your opposition has no way of retaliating.

[Sootan]

They were supposed to shutdown the Panama canal. Wouldn't change anything, though it would make it more difficult for US Navy to move supplies and warships.

[TheKiwi]

They were going to have to have "Super Extra Large Luck" to be able to do that for more than a day or two. I can remember reading about the difficulty the RAF had trying to hit locks on the European canal systems.

[Ritual]

Blue Submarine No. 6. 'Nuff said.

Weaboo + flashback to 2000 toonami lol.

[Sootan]

They were going to have to have "Super Extra Large Luck" to be able to do that for more than a day or two. I can remember reading about the difficulty the RAF had trying to hit locks on the European canal systems.
Hence the futility of the mission.

[Euroamerican]

I don't know.. Propaganda-wise, it would be great to reach out and touch someone where they don't expect it. The Doolittle Raid didn't do huge levels of damage, but it was a hell of a morale booster for the Yanks.

Can you imagine what would have happened if a squadron of Japanese battleships had come in and bombarded the west coast shortly after Pearl Harbor?

There was considerable agitation about the submarines bombing Los Angeles. They also did the balloon bomb thing, which killed a few civilians in Oregon.

[deathil93]

Back than, it wasn't practical and I agree that it was a waste of resources. However, in general, it was somewhat of a ground breaking idea, launching planes from subs that is.
Hell, I think if they had modern technology and more time (like all WW2 wunderwaffens, time wise) those subs could have posed a huge threat to the US. Just think about it, subs, which are kinda tricky to detact, even if they are afloat, that could launch attack planes and than dissapear beneath the waves? I think it may have a future.

[TheKiwi]

I don't know.. Propaganda-wise, it would be great to reach out and touch someone where they don't expect it. ...

Can you imagine what would have happened if a squadron of Japanese battleships had come in and bombarded the west coast shortly after Pearl Harbor?

How exactly? The Japanese were straining their at sea tanking resources to the limit getting to Pearl Harbor as it was. Had there been a fight, their plan was to abandon the escort destroyers as they assumed the highly vulnerable tankers would have been sunk. Now transpose that to the West Coast of the US. A small task force of Battleships sails up and fires some 14" rounds at San Francisco. Meanwhile, the USAAF sinks their tankers. Now the pride of the IJN runs out of fuel in the middle of the Pacific on their way back to Japan. Sitting duck doesn't even begin to describe such a collection of targets. More like "Navy Cross waiting to happen".


Back than, it wasn't practical and I agree that it was a waste of resources. However, in general, it was somewhat of a ground breaking idea, launching planes from subs that is.
Hell, I think if they had modern technology and more time (like all WW2 wunderwaffens, time wise) those subs could have posed a huge threat to the US. Just think about it, subs, which are kinda tricky to detact, even if they are afloat, that could launch attack planes and than dissapear beneath the waves? I think it may have a future.

The only wonder-weapons they could carry that would pose a threat would be nuclear, so highly unlikely. Remember that submarines of the time spent much of their time on the surface, which makes them a whole lot easier to detect.

Also keep in mind that by 1945 when these submarines were ready, the US Navy was so vast, it had more destroyers than there were ships in the entire IJN. They could afford to place a couple of dozen more of them around the (already heavily defended) canal. The biggest problem the USN faced by that stage wasn't lack of ships, it was lack of men. They had enough ships they needed a navy of 4 million people to man them all, but only had 3 million. Against numbers like that, no amount of petty attacks was going to delay the end of the war by even a day.

[Ought Six]

TK:
"They were going to have to have "Super Extra Large Luck" to be able to do that for more than a day or two. I can remember reading about the difficulty the RAF had trying to hit locks on the European canal systems."It was to be a kamkaze mission. That would have been accurate enough. The planes were each designed to carry a single 1700 pound bomb. They were intending to attack the Gatun locks with sixteen aircraft, IIRC. I think that could have succeeded.

[TheKiwi]

Radar. Fighter Squadrons of P-47's. 200MPH float-plane bombers. A suicide mission indeed, but one highly unlikely to succeed. The submarines themselves were going to have to spend a very long time on the surface assembling the aircraft, or in other words a perfect target for one of the patrolling ASW aircraft that dominated the waters around Panama.

[Soldat_Américain]

I saw this one on the history channel a good while back. The problem with these was that by the time they were ready to go Japan needed them for other missions and the Japanese supply lines were screwed. If I remember they were supposed to hit the locks at the Panama Canal Zone, hit LA and SF with chemical/ biological weapons.

[deathil93]

The only wonder-weapons they could carry that would pose a threat would be nuclear, so highly unlikely. Remember that submarines of the time spent much of their time on the surface, which makes them a whole lot easier to detect.

Also keep in mind that by 1945 when these submarines were ready, the US Navy was so vast, it had more destroyers than there were ships in the entire IJN. They could afford to place a couple of dozen more of them around the (already heavily defended) canal. The biggest problem the USN faced by that stage wasn't lack of ships, it was lack of men. They had enough ships they needed a navy of 4 million people to man them all, but only had 3 million. Against numbers like that, no amount of petty attacks was going to delay the end of the war by even a day.
Well, there are alot of axis developed weapons that could have changed the course of the war if they had been deployed earlier and with greater numbers, but anyway, I was talking about modern application.
I think it would give a country an edge (if used correctly) when facing a fleet like the US Navy, just think about it, quickly deploy VTOL from a nuclear sub and than dissapear beneath the waves.

[curlyboy]

It does surprise you that the Japanese built the largest Submarines and the fastest submarines and even historys largest battleships but what did they accomplish in the war.... nothing

Although some of the inventive ideas were pushed through by Yamamoto (inc the initial planning for the panama canal attack) but after the Allies shot down his plane it seemed the rest of the senior staff in the navy lost any real creativity and wasted its resources in final attacks that the allies stopped (inc the waste of the Yamato).

curlyboy

[TheKiwi]

Well, there are alot of axis developed weapons that could have changed the course of the war if they had been deployed earlier and with greater numbers, but anyway, I was talking about modern application.
I think it would give a country an edge (if used correctly) when facing a fleet like the US Navy, just think about it, quickly deploy VTOL from a nuclear sub and than dissapear beneath the waves.

As opposed to say Allied super-weapons, you know like the atomic bomb, the B-29, or the Gloster Meteor? You know, super weapons that actually worked and were deployed in numbers. Do you think perhaps they too could have "changed the course of the war" if they we deployed earlier and in numbers? Sheesh, the whole "Teh Nazi Super Science" thing gets old pretty fast. Most of the late war stuff they proposed wasn't super science, it was a measure of super desperation.

As for VTOL off a sub, there is not one submarine in existence today, not even the Ohio's or the old USSR Typhoons that could carry a fully assembled Harrier, let alone something more capable. So you are talking about a submarine much bigger than anything ever made that surfaces in an environment full of active sensors and launches 1 to 3 aircraft. I can just see the commander of a USN CAG ****ting in their boots over that.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

It does surprise you that the Japanese built the largest Submarines and the fastest submarines and even historys largest battleships but what did they accomplish in the war.... nothing

Although some of the inventive ideas were pushed through by Yamamoto (inc the initial planning for the panama canal attack) but after the Allies shot down his plane it seemed the rest of the senior staff in the navy lost any real creativity and wasted its resources in final attacks that the allies stopped (inc the waste of the Yamato).

curlyboy

Using the Yamato wasn't really a waste. The war was lost. Now either keep the biggest, baddest mofo on the planet in dock as nothing more then a floating anti-aircraft battery that will eventually be sunk or handed over to the Allies or send on it on a one way mission to cause as much chaos as possible. Knowing full well it's going to be sunk.

If the plan works it may buy some time, give some moral boost to the defenders of Okinawa.

[TheKiwi]

It is a waste to send a ship on a mission that you know it can't perform. The Yamato mission was just a part of the Japanese philosophy of war that made the commanders of the IJN shameful for having operational ships doing nothing while the army was fighting in the Philippines and Okinawa. That same philosophy that made them carry out the battle of Leyte Gulf when they knew it could make no difference to the outcome of the war.

[LineDoggie]

If the Japanese Plane took out the Miraflores or the Pedro Miguel Locks of the Panama Canal, guess What?

Now any shipments need to go round the Cape Horn for Months at a Minimum.

Remember how the dry dock at St. Naziare was taken out? this would have been worse due to inability to replace it on site without extensive engineering.

[TheKiwi]

IF is the right word though. Remember that Panama was heavily defended. There were squadrons of P-47's based there. There was radar to detect ships and aircraft coming towards it. There were wide area ASW patrols. And there were going to be (at best and that assumes a maintenance miracle) only 16 aircraft to carry out this attack. St Nazaire got taken out by a blast of over 3 tons of high explosives that were "carefully" placed. Even Kamikaze pilots had a pis$-poor record of hitting targets as large as an Aircraft Carrier. The RAF's (probably) best squadron of the time 617 wasn't able to hit the locks on European canals from the air.

I give this whole show a zero % chance of success. There was simply way too much that had to go right for the attackers and wrong for the defenders.

[Ought Six]

TK:
"Radar. Fighter Squadrons of P-47's. 200MPH float-plane bombers. A suicide mission indeed, but one highly unlikely to succeed. The submarines themselves were going to have to spend a very long time on the surface assembling the aircraft, or in other words a perfect target for one of the patrolling ASW aircraft that dominated the waters around Panama."The Japanese, not being stupid, anticipated all of that. The plan was for the subs to surface and launch aircraft off of Ecuador. The planes would fly north, cut across Colombia, and attack the Canal from the east, so they would be taken as American aircraft until it was too late. The Japanese planners felt the biggest threat to their mission was the high concentration of AA guns around the locks.

[TheKiwi]

The sort of plan that might have worked in 1941 or 1942, but was never going to work in 1945. As far back at the Battle of Britain there was IFF for identifying friendly and hostile aircraft. While the whole "confused airspace" thing worked in the convoluted battles over the western Pacific, around Panama, it was a very simple equation. Once again, 200MPH unmaneuverable float planes vs P-47's that can do double that, and guided by radar. The Japanese were right about one thing though, the AA around the locks would have been equipped with proximity fuses, the same fuses that had made formation attacks impossible for the IJN since 1944. It was the success of the proximity fuse that made the Japanese adopt the Kamikaze tactics in the 1st place.

Of course there was one other big hitch in the whole plan not mentioned before. The fact that almost all IJN codes were broken. Odds are that the forces at Panama would have been made aware of the probability of an attack and it's general timing weeks before the submarines arrived.

[deathil93]

As opposed to say Allied super-weapons, you know like the atomic bomb, the B-29, or the Gloster Meteor? You know, super weapons that actually worked and were deployed in numbers. Do you think perhaps they too could have "changed the course of the war" if they we deployed earlier and in numbers? Sheesh, the whole "Teh Nazi Super Science" thing gets old pretty fast. Most of the late war stuff they proposed wasn't super science, it was a measure of super desperation.

As for VTOL off a sub, there is not one submarine in existence today, not even the Ohio's or the old USSR Typhoons that could carry a fully assembled Harrier, let alone something more capable. So you are talking about a submarine much bigger than anything ever made that surfaces in an environment full of active sensors and launches 1 to 3 aircraft. I can just see the commander of a USN CAG ****ting in their boots over that.
Pretty much, yes. If the Japs managed to build a carrier sub like that (that carried nearly fully assembled sea planes) than I think with modern technology it would be much easier to build and operate.
If we can build cruise ships and tankers that displace well over 300k tons, than we can easily build something like this.
Try using your imagination for a second, if its not broken, and you'll see why I'm excited like a little girl about this carrier sub idea.

[domokun]

Nope, they were pretty much as you described, a great big waste of resources that would never have achieved anything.

I agree, at best they could have complicated allied supplying for couple months, it could have bought maybe month or less at best before eventual defeat.


Back than, it wasn't practical and I agree that it was a waste of resources. However, in general, it was somewhat of a ground breaking idea, launching planes from subs that is.
Hell, I think if they had modern technology and more time (like all WW2 wunderwaffens, time wise) those subs could have posed a huge threat to the US. Just think about it, subs, which are kinda tricky to detact, even if they are afloat, that could launch attack planes and than dissapear beneath the waves? I think it may have a future.

Submarine launched air attack already exists, it's called cruise missile and most submarines these days can launch those. Those are pretty much perfect UAV's, only drawback is fact that those can be used only for one way missions. During WWII only feasible guidance system available just was volunteer kamikaze pilot. Besides those can be launched without surfacing these days. First missile submarines used cruise missiles that had to be launched from surface, those had to stay on surface during launch for while, that was Achilles heel of those. Assuming mission is important enough, recovering aircraft isn't worth it, if there is need warhead of cruise missile could be replaced with sensor package and communication up-link, intelligence satellites just make recon cruise missile kinda redundant. Countries that could develop that cruise missile already have satellites in most cases.


As opposed to say Allied super-weapons, you know like the atomic bomb, the B-29, or the Gloster Meteor? You know, super weapons that actually worked and were deployed in numbers. Do you think perhaps they too could have "changed the course of the war" if they we deployed earlier and in numbers? Sheesh, the whole "Teh Nazi Super Science" thing gets old pretty fast. Most of the late war stuff they proposed wasn't super science, it was a measure of super desperation.


You know, B-29 and Gloster Meteors weren't exactly comparable to wunder waffen. Those weren't much more capable than opponents hardware, at least when compared to what Germans had. Against Luftwaffe B-29 wouldn't have flown above intercept altitude, even when used against Japan ceiling was dropped to level where Japanese could intercept those, accuracy was too bad from originally planned uninterceptable altitude, B-24's with same range would have done as well. Only thing that makes B-29 super weapon, even when it was the best bomber of the day, was size of Boeing factories. If Gloster Meteor would have to be constructed with same materials and with as diluted labor as Me-262 was, it would have been as unreliable as Me-262 was. Primary problem of Me-262 wasn't plane, it's unreliability was factor, but main problem was lack of fuel and fact that most of Luftwaffe's best pilots were already dead.

Only one of those that really was super weapon was nuke.

"Teh Nazi Super Science" is in a way real, they were desperate and really thinking out side of box to find solutions. Winners of war developed plenty of those concepts Germans were working on further after war. Only really working ones of nazi wunder waffen were V-2 (it was massive waste of resources strategically, but purely technical point of view really awesome accomplishment), type XXI submarine (until USS Albacore and Nautilus most of submarines made were quite much copies of that) and jet fighters. In mid-50's active radar guided missiles were already under development (US Sparrow-D for example), still it took until mid 70's before AIM-54 Phoenix was fielded, originally they assumed that active radar homing's little issues would have been ironed out in couple years... it just took little longer. Most of advanced concepts Nazis had wouldn't have been feasible without lot longer development time.

Tiger and Panther were pretty awesome tanks, both of those could easily defeat 5 Shermans. Fact that there were at least 6 Shermans and about 10 T-34's for each Panther or Tiger describes real problem with Nazis had.

[TheKiwi]

The B-29 flew high, further and carried more bombs than any other bomber put into service in WW2. And it was built in the thousands. Sometimes I think that's what is the difference between Allied "wonder weapons" and the Axis ones. The Allied ones were built and they worked. As for the Meteor, the fact remains that it was a much more reliable jet than the Me-262, which made it a better weapon. Post war Meteors with a slightly better engine and a slight airframe modification were flying at over 100MPH faster than the Me-262 was capable of. The Rolls-Royce Nene engine was the basis for an entire generation of post-war jet aircraft, including those that powered excellent fighters like the Mig-15. No-one managed to do anything useful post-war with the German jet engines, even when they had access to better materials. Most of the German super weapons would have run into the same "real world" issues that occurred post-war, e.g flying wings being inherently unstable.

Allied tanks like the T-34/85, the Comet and the M-26 were more than capable of dealing with the Panther and Tiger. It was logistical, not technical factors that got in the way of bulk deployment of the two western tanks.

[domokun]

The B-29 flew high, further and carried more bombs than any other bomber put into service in WW2. And it was built in the thousands. Sometimes I think that's what is the difference between Allied "wonder weapons" and the Axis ones. The Allied ones were built and they worked. As for the Meteor, the fact remains that it was a much more reliable jet than the Me-262, which made it a better weapon. Post war Meteors with a slightly better engine and a slight airframe modification were flying at over 100MPH faster than the Me-262 was capable of. The Rolls-Royce Nene engine was the basis for an entire generation of post-war jet aircraft, including those that powered excellent fighters like the Mig-15. No-one managed to do anything useful post-war with the German jet engines, even when they had access to better materials. Most of the German super weapons would have run into the same "real world" issues that occurred post-war, e.g flying wings being inherently unstable.

I personally categorize "wonder weapons" as vapor ware, Germans had plenty of interesting concepts. They didn't have change to develop those into working state. Thank god. Bolded part pretty much sums it up.

On Gloster Meteor vs. Me-262 off shoot of topic... Meteor had one massive advantage when compared to Me-262 on strategic scale, Brits had time to develop it quite mature level before fielding it. They had luxury of being superior even with lesser tech. From purely technical side it had one big advantage, centrifugal compressor designs are simpler to make into reliable than axial compressor designs. Axial compressor is better on all other features than reliability, there is reason why centrifugal compressors are rather rare on every other application than auxiliary power units. If axis would have won the war RR Welland used by Meteor would have been only foot note on history of aviation, bit like Jumo ended up. Meteors better reliability is mostly caused by better materials used on construction of engine. From modern perspective it was still massively unreliable plane, almost quarter of planes build crashed. On what if side if we remove need to push plane operational as fast as it was case with Me-262, Meteor too would have rather dreadful reputation.


Allied tanks like the T-34/85, the Comet and the M-26 were more than capable of dealing with the Panther and Tiger. It was logistical, not technical factors that got in the way of bulk deployment of the two western tanks.

I raised Panther/Tiger issue as mostly anecdotal example of fact that technically superior equipment in inferior numbers isn't exactly the winning formula. Adequate numbers of inferior equipment worked fine WWII context. T-34/85, Comet and M26 were as pretty much good as tanks as Panther or Tiger were. Centurion too on British side was well baking up in the oven, same applies to T-44. Even if take Panther as it's reputation is, the best tank of WWII, for some reason Russian units that had captured Panthers as equipment had pretty bad experiences with it... it probably is related to rather bad supply situation with spares and other support.

[Mastermind]

@Kiwi...Outstanding points. I fully agree.

German engineering was smart, but, on a great many levels impractical for the circumstance Germany found itself in in 1942. It must have been horrifying to many high level persons in Germany when Hitler ordered reduction in war productivity...aircraft and tanks. Also, they seemed incapable of properly assessing their war priorities. For example, all the way to the last days of the war, Germany was still relying on horse drawn tranport in a large degree. This was an absurd situation. They seem to have never thought the need for mass truck manufacturing...evident by the idiotic mid-war efforts to coerce trucks-for-Jews from the allies. This was not their only omission of practical "war-think". they were impressed with their pre-war innovation to such a degree they failed to realize the importance of continuation of that innovation throughout the performance of the war. This, of course, led to very critical falling behind the curve of competitive advances in aircraft design. They failed to produce an effective four-engine bomber...they failed to replace badly outdated designs...such as the Me-109. The Mustang completely shocked the Germans...as did allied RADAR advances. Up until they had up close and personal experiences with allied advances such as these, they had considered such things as all but impossible.

The Japanese were much worse in this regard than the Germans. They placed most oft heir faith in a falsely perceived quality of their fighting personnel. They allowed their war material and equipment to stagnate, believing they could always make up for this by the superior nature of their genetic quality in both physique and fighting prowess. Basically, they let their false sense of racial superiority lead them to fantastic conclusions that led to their ultimate defeat. No matter how savage or determined they fought, the end was inevitable and predictable early on...as Yamamoto had correctly forseen even before the attack on PH.