Has Britain ever come close to war with Spain over Gibraltar

[arcadian]

The title I guess says it all. I would like to know if Britain has or may ever come close to war with Spain over the Great Rock. This is in recent times only please, perhaps restricted to post-WWII years.
Would Spain ever risk war with Britain over this little chunck of rock and if so why?

[HollywoodMarine]

Other then Spain restricting movement between Gibraltar and Spain for thirty years (1950's-1970's), then no. If Spain wanted to retake The Rock, it missed its opportunity in WWII.

[Panchito12]

One word: NO.

The Spanish government has always respected the Treaties that it signs. But clearly they've been suffering "buyer's remorse" over the whole Gibraltar thing.

Also, and the Spaniards always go thru moral and intellectual gymnastics to refute this issue, Spain occupies territories in Africa (including the Canary Islands) to which Morocco claims sovereignty. Whatever the excuse Spain puts towards promoting the legitimacy of their occupation, I have always been pretty vocal to my Spanish side of the family that I find it hypocritical of Spain to claim that the UK ought to leave Gibraltar but that their own claim to their African provinces are valid.

[visigothum]

One word: NO.

The Spanish government has always respected the Treaties that it signs. But clearly they've been suffering "buyer's remorse" over the whole Gibraltar thing.

Also, and the Spaniards always go thru moral and intellectual gymnastics to refute this issue, Spain occupies territories in Africa (including the Canary Islands) to which Morocco claims sovereignty. Whatever the excuse Spain puts towards promoting the legitimacy of their occupation, I have always been pretty vocal to my Spanish side of the family that I find it hypocritical of Spain to claim that the UK ought to leave Gibraltar but that their own claim to their African provinces are valid.

Canary islands were conquisted in the S XV, no islam or moore habited in. Ceuta and Melilla are part of the Spanish kingdon in the S V. the moors occuped it in the S VIII, and Portugal reconquistered it in the S XIV.
England occuped Gibraltar when they are allied of a side in the Spanish civil war betwen Habsburgo and Borbones. Gibraltar was a part of a State, it not a conquisted town.

[visigothum]

on the other hand, is stupid a war for this. Spain its clear: gibraltar is spanish or british. The citizens of gibraltar can be british (with their own laws, like a Autonomous
Region), but the land is Spain.

[HollywoodMarine]

Spain its clear: gibraltar is spanish or british. The citizens of gibraltar can be british (with their own laws, like a Autonomous
Region), but the land is Spain.

Nope... it's not Spanish. It's a British overseas territory.

[Panchito12]

but the land is Spain.

And Morocco, Melilla, the other assorted rocks, and the Canary Islands are in Africa and closer to Morocco. Thus the land is Morocco.


Canary islands were conquisted in the S XV, no islam or moore habited in.

There are no Spaniards in Gibraltar, only UK citizens quietly living in UK land.

[Bee_Gee.]

I personnally recommend a visit. Driving over the airport into the town is quite a experience, and seing all the old millitary infastructure from back in the day is awsome. It's really a shame that the garrison is a shadow of it's former self as I would kill to get a posting to gib.

[Sada]

In the part of the same members of always this thread is beginning to slide down the hoolygan football field. I won´t participate, just saying that there wasn´t never a close chance of any war between GB and Spain post WWII, this is a fact, even it seems it had few chances of happenning in the early chapters of WWII, but this is my opinion. Ceuta and Melilla has nothing to do with this, not to speak of Canarias, Spain has more rights and foundings for occupying those territories than USA for occupying Arizona, the rest is singing with the ass.

Canarias was occupied and colonized beginning in the XIV and was finished a century after, in that time was inhabitted by the Guanches, a group of peoples living in the stone age and it seems loosely related with the ancestors of berbers, since many years ago were absorved and assimilated with spanish settlers. The islands are off the Sahara West Coast, never were populated by moors, arabs or any african people, and NEVER EVER Morocco claimed sovereignity over Canarias.

[Sada]

And Morocco, Melilla, the other assorted rocks, and the Canary Islands are in Africa and closer to Morocco. Thus the land is Morocco.



There are no Spaniards in Gibraltar, only UK citizens quietly living in UK land.
You better explain how were occupied Ceuta, Melilla, the other "assorted rocks" and why this "assorted rocks" are in spite our will in our hands, or better leave the discussion, because this is not about cheering your basket team but about very known hisorical facts and written laws. It´s amazing how expertized and american latino can be for the fact of having spanish relatives. I had some ancestors that lived, f@cked and ate in places like New Orleans or Buenos Aires and frankly I don´t know a thing about jazz, tango or USA and Argentine policies, for me they are like the outter space planets.
Facts and laws, please and back to the topic of war.

[Sada]

Nope... it's not Spanish. It's a British overseas territory.
both are right. A british overseas territory that will back to Spain as soon as GB leaves the territory, as is recognized in the treaties signed by both countries.

[Dercius]

Canary Islands have never ever been part of Morocco. Anyone saying such a thing risks to suffer a serious beating by any "Canario". Morocco claims sovereignty of Canary Islands, but that is something that will never happen, well, not as long as Spain keeps an edge on military over Morocco. For anyone interested on this matter,Im sure Miguelencanarias could give us a good briefing.

About the Gibraltar issue, Spain will never go to war over it. As Panchito said Spain has no problem honouring the treaty, and it clearly states that the moment it stops beign british, spain has priority over any other claim of sovereignty. So I would recomend the "Llanitos" ((people from Gibraltar)) to remain British, and bussiness as usual :)

[Sada]

Other then Spain restricting movement between Gibraltar and Spain for thirty years (1950's-1970's), then no. If Spain wanted to retake The Rock, it missed its opportunity in WWII.
Spain´s Franco close the gate with Gibraltar in the late sixities, no before, but to put things in perspective, spanish have restricted movements in the american base of Rota in South Spain, or the cuban people in Guantánamo, so restricting the movement between Gibraltar and Spain shouldn´t be an issue.

[Sada]

Canary Islands have never ever been part of Morocco. Anyone saying such a thing risks to suffer a serious beating by any "Canario". Morocco claims sovereignty of Canary Islands, but that is something that will never happen, well, not as long as Spain keeps an edge on military over Morocco. For anyone interested on this matter,Im sure Miguelencanarias could give us a good briefing.

It´s isn´t even like this, only questions about some kind of "african" claims over Canarias were in the late 70s, when the activities of the MPAIAC found echoes and funds in Algeria and the OUA issued a declaration "urging" Spain to decolonizate Canarias.

[miguelencanarias]

I am going to sit this one out, for risk of losing my temper, what with Panchito solemny declaring, by the authority invested in him by his own cojones, that we are Moroccans and all.

As for the original question, no on both accounts. Spain and Britain have never been remotely close to war over this subject (other than the occasional political brouhaha for internal consumption only that enlivens quiet summers) and they will never be. Period.

[Panchito12]

I am going to sit this one out, for risk of losing my temper, what with Panchito solemny declaring, by the authority invested in him by his own cojones, that we are Moroccans and all..

You proved my original point: That discussing the status of British sovereignty Gibraltar, without also discussing the status of the existing Spanish-controlled territory in Africa, is an issue that cannot be disccused with a Spaniard. Punto y victoria para mi.

[miguelencanarias]

is an issue that cannot be disccused with a Spaniard.Probably because I don't know about you, but I HAVE SH.T TO DO, and I can't spend the next few days arguing about the gender of the angels. It is enough that I read you first post, and those were 10 seconds of my life that I will never get back.

But by all means, tell everybody again how I am a Moroccan and stuff.

[Macaca sylvanus]

Close to a war? No. There has been plenty of posturing over the years, especially after the 1967 referendum, where the Gibraltarian people overwhelmingly rejected Spanish sovereignty. I remember hearing about the appearance of an armoured column in the Spanish hinterland which remained there for a few weeks, and an increased military presence on the Spanish side of the frontier during these tense times. The frontier was eventually closed by Spain in 1969 after a new constitution was implemented based on the results of this referendum. This was seen as a hostile and threatening act by the UK and the Gibraltarians, and in a sense was a modern siege, since supply lines were cut, telephone lines severed and many families were separated. Gibraltar now relied more on the UK and on Morocco for goods and manpower, this in a way strengthened ties with the UK and the resolve of the people. In 1984 the frontier was again opened by the newly democratic Spain.

In recent years there have been many incursions by Spanish Naval vessels and Guardia Civil Boats into Gibraltar Territorial Waters which are internationally recognised but not by Spain. There was also the embarassing accidental invasion of Spain by Royal Marines during a beach landing on the wrong side of the frontier! Only last year there was a shootout in the streets of Gibraltar between Guardia Civiles who had illegaly entered Gibraltar by sea whilst chasing Spanish smugglers who sought refuge on the Rock. they were arrested and their weapons confiscated, they were released that same day. In my opinion Spain will never attack Gibraltar because its has always been a useful political football to be kicked around by the parties in Spain during election time, especially by the centre right Partido Popular, who garner the support of citizens of the Spanish hinterland with promises of never giving up the claim to sovereignty etc... hot air from politicians as usual. The truth is that more and more young Spaniards care less and less about Gibraltars status and with time the Gibraltar question will only bother old men who lived through the Francoist years and those with extreme right sensibilities.

[HollywoodMarine]

Panchito12 and miguelencanarias...

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk316/AriElite/rodney_king.jpg

[VansRV]

In the part of the same members of always this thread is beginning to slide down the hoolygan football field. I won´t participate.

Thought you were not going to participate?

[miguelencanarias]

Aiwa, salaam, salaam.

[Panchito12]

As far as the US is concerned there is one major intrinsic value to Gibraltar.

During the periodical negotiations that occur as to the renewal of USN access to Rota, both the US and Spain know full well that if the US is asked to leave Rota then operations can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar.

That is a hell of a trump card the US holds in those negotiations.

[Proudgrandson]

Operation Felix (the German plan to take Gibraltar) was the closest that it ever came to it. Franco turned it down in 1940. Which was a good move on his part as the German plan actually involved committing two Army Corps to the Iberian peninsular and the possible occupation by Germany of Spanish Morrocco, Rio de Oro and the Canary Islands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix

[futurepilot2004]

And Morocco, Melilla, the other assorted rocks, and the Canary Islands are in Africa and closer to Morocco. Thus the land is Morocco.


Lol, your posts just keep getting more ridiculous


There are no Spaniards in Gibraltar, only UK citizens quietly living in UK land.

Gibraltar isnt part of the UK. It is a British overseas territory.

[martinexsquaddie]

the gibs want to be Britsh so British they remain.
back in the day the spanish would have taken a pasting if they'd tried

[DPM_Sheep]

Gibraltar isnt part of the UK. It is a British overseas territory.

And for over a decade, residents of British overseas territories hold UK passports. So yes it is British territory with British residents. ;)

[Eztyga]

Probably in a pub somewhere... ;)

[happyslapper]

As far as the US is concerned there is one major intrinsic value to Gibraltar.

During the periodical negotiations that occur as to the renewal of USN access to Rota, both the US and Spain know full well that if the US is asked to leave Rota then operations can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar.

That is a hell of a trump card the US holds in those negotiations.

US warships visit Gib quite regularly, as do other NATO warships (Gib being a declared NATO base). It also falls on the RN's Gibraltar Squadron, of which I was briefly a part, to escort friendly warships and 'sensitive cargoes' through the strait.

As for the original question, its already been well stated by all, but here's my 2p... NO.
Plenty of political pissing about, plenty of adults acting like children, plenty of people forgetting basic morals, but never a real risk of coming to blows.

[Eoin666]

Canarias was occupied and colonized beginning in the XIV and was finished a century after, in that time was inhabitted by the Guanches, a group of peoples living in the stone age and it seems loosely related with the ancestors of berbers, since many years ago were absorved and assimilated with spanish settlers. The islands are off the Sahara West Coast, never were populated by moors, arabs or any african people, and NEVER EVER Morocco claimed sovereignity over Canarias.

'Slightly' going off topic, but if that's the case why does Spain have such a hard time accepting the Falklands being British, they were never populated, settlers were and still regard themselves as British etc etc?

[Íñigo Montoya]

As far as the US is concerned there is one major intrinsic value to Gibraltar.

During the periodical negotiations that occur as to the renewal of USN access to Rota, both the US and Spain know full well that if the US is asked to leave Rota then operations can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar.

That is a hell of a trump card the US holds in those negotiations.

Bull****. Gibraltar is a tiny piece of land (6 square kilometres, half of it being an unusable rock and the rest consisting in an overcrowded town). Just the base at Rota currently covers 25 square km. Now tell me how any operations other than buying cheap alcohol and cigarettes can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar, please. Whatever, the place is pretty much a non issue in Spain: we'd rather declare war to the UK over Cesc Fábregas and Torres' recent injuries. If only the authorities in there implemented some environmental regulations and rejected tax-dumping as their main export...

[john@staustell]

Operation Felix (the German plan to take Gibraltar) was the closest that it ever came to it. Franco turned it down in 1940. Which was a good move on his part as the German plan actually involved committing two Army Corps to the Iberian peninsular and the possible occupation by Germany of Spanish Morrocco, Rio de Oro and the Canary Islands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix

Franco was too smart for that. He kept procrastinating saying 'the time is not yet right' when Hitler kept wanting his troops deployed to take Gib. Must've frustrated the hell out of the Fuhrer after all the help German and Italian forces gave in the Guerra Civil! But if Franco joined Hitler, defeat for Hitler would've meant the end for Franco. If he stayed neutral he could possibly stay in power many years - like he did!

The interesting thing is that if the Stalinists had won the Guerra Civil instead of the Fascists, then surely the invincible German forces of 1940 would've steam-rollered down through Spain, Gib and Morocco, costing the allies North Africa, the Med and maybe the war.

Interesting eh - "fascist victory saves allies!!!"

[Macaca sylvanus]

Now tell me how any operations other than buying cheap alcohol and cigarettes can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar, please.....If only the authorities in there implemented some environmental regulations and rejected tax-dumping as their main export...

You're showing yourself up as just another Gib-bashing Spanish automaton with these kind of worthless comments. At the same time you are also severely insulting the intelligence of the readership of this forum with baseless propaganda, and you can link all the .es websites you want. There already is a permanent USN presence in Gibraltar, but I guess you didn't know that, just as in the rest of your spurious post.

[Íñigo Montoya]

And you can whinge all you want. You cannot compare a shared civilian/military tiny port and airport consisting in a single runway which severes Gibraltar's main road to anywhere every time a plane lands or takes off, with the biggest military base in the Iberian Peninsula. Back in the 80's, there was more people (16,000 U.S. Navy sailors plus their families) serving in the base at Rota than inhabitants living in the whole Gibraltar. Is really that simple:

1- Rota Naval Station (25 square km),
123195

2- Gibraltar's port (1 square km perhaps?)
123197

[Proudgrandson]

Franco was too smart for that. He kept procrastinating saying 'the time is not yet right' when Hitler kept wanting his troops deployed to take Gib. Must've frustrated the hell out of the Fuhrer after all the help German and Italian forces gave in the Guerra Civil! But if Franco joined Hitler, defeat for Hitler would've meant the end for Franco. If he stayed neutral he could possibly stay in power many years - like he did!

The interesting thing is that if the Stalinists had won the Guerra Civil instead of the Fascists, then surely the invincible German forces of 1940 would've steam-rollered down through Spain, Gib and Morocco, costing the allies North Africa, the Med and maybe the war.

Interesting eh - "fascist victory saves allies!!!"

Certainly correct if the Facists had lost the Civil war, but would Spain have proved a hornets nest of guerrillas for the Germans? Mind you on the not letting the Germans pass through Spain decision by Franco was he reflecting back on what happened to Spain when it allowed French troops into the country to occupy Portugal in the Napoleonic wars.

[Macaca sylvanus]

And you can whinge all you want. You cannot compare a shared civilian/military tiny port and airport consisting in a single runway which severes Gibraltar's main road to anywhere every time a plane lands or takes off, with the biggest military base in the Iberian Peninsula. Back in the 80's, there was more people (16,000 U.S. Navy sailors plus their families) serving in the base at Rota than inhabitants living in the whole Gibraltar. Is really that simple:

Have you read my original post at all? No, didnt think so. Did I mention anything to compare the size or influence of the naval bases? No. Thanks for letting us all know Rota is bigger than Gibraltar Naval Base. So your retort is yet again completely redundant. Also where did you get those population figures from? In 1981 there was 28,719 people in the civilian population excluding servicemen residing in Gibraltar, at the last count in 2008 there was 29,286. Try and make your seventh post on this forum a little bit more coherent if possible, or at least accurate.

[Íñigo Montoya]

Accurate? If there were
(16,000 U.S. Navy sailors plus their families) you can expect at least double the number of people living in there. Then add the marines, USAF transferred servicemen. And then, the Spanish personnel. How about actually reading the posts before trying to lecture me?


You're showing yourself up as just another Gib-bashing Spanish automaton
And how about a little less victimism for your 489 post on this forum?

[Macaca sylvanus]

Now tell me how any operations other than buying cheap alcohol and cigarettes can quickly be transferred to Gibraltar, please.....If only the authorities in there implemented some environmental regulations and rejected tax-dumping as their main export...

This was the part of your post that I took exception to, and nothing else. You would know this if you would have read my original post. In essence, Don't write Spanish propaganda crap about territories and situations that you know fvck all about first hand. Anybody can pick up a newspaper and regurgitate what it says. And theres nothing you can find on the net thats going to supercede what I know about Gibraltar. By victimism I suppose you mean victimisation since that word does not exist in the English language. Who's whinging now then?

Have a super day

[john@staustell]

Certainly correct if the Facists had lost the Civil war, but would Spain have proved a hornets nest of guerrillas for the Germans? Mind you on the not letting the Germans pass through Spain decision by Franco was he reflecting back on what happened to Spain when it allowed French troops into the country to occupy Portugal in the Napoleonic wars.

Possibly. But the strategy he took was no-lose, as proved by his longevity. The French was a sort of hostile takeover, whereas Franco and Hitler sang from more or less the same 'death to the bolshies' political hymnsheet, so I dont think Hitler would've had to worry about occupying the place much like the French did. I reckon Franco was just a lot smarter than his Italian counterpart, for example. Motivated probably by his own prospects rather than any grand national or political altruism! Plus war is bloody expensive and Spain had just had more than it's fill.

Plus I dont see much need for similar guerilla warfare to 1808 onward, as Franco's Spain would've been a friendly country for Hitler in the main. The population was either content with the outcome, thanking God they'd removed the spectre of the left, or surpressed into submission, or refugeed to France and elsewhere.

It would have been like the Germans invading Crete using Italian bases etc.

[Íñigo Montoya]

In essence, Don't write Spanish propaganda crap

Whatever. Here's some 'Spanish propaganda' for ya:
1- The IMF (http://www.imf.org/external/np/ofca/ofca.asp#G)
2- Lowtax.net (http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/gibraltar/jgideps.html)
3- Lawandtax.com (http://www.lawandtax-news.com/html/gibraltar/jgilathom.html)

As for environmental regulations:
1- Check the Environmental Safety Group website (http://www.esg-gib.net/?s=bunkering&input.x=0&input.y=0&input=Go). They're Gibraltarian.
2- Higher Carbon Dioxide Emissions per capita in the world (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/datablog/2009/sep/02/carbon-emissions-per-person-capita).
3- Repairing leaks in the nuclear reactor of a submarine:

123399123401

4- Ignoring Euratom directives (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62002J0218:EN:NOT) concerning the "Protection of the health of workers and the general public against the dangers arising from ionizing radiation" while doing so...

And I could go on for ages. At least, if you don't plan to do something about it (it's your government after all), don't blame others for it. How about trying to be good neighbours for a change? Because I'm quite fed up of hearing the constant whinges of Gibraltarian officials about how evil Spain currently is (let me stress it again: nowadays), but I can't recall a single good thing you've done for us lately.

Have a nice day you too.

[Macaca sylvanus]

These links are useless in proving what you are trying to put across, they just show how little you know about the situation. You are just Gib-bashing, Spain's third national sport after bullfighting and domestic violence.

You do know Gibraltar has a special tax status in the EU? This special tax status in not illegal and it is no secret. Gibraltar is a well known and regulated international finance centre because of this and a lot of business comes because of it, just like in other EU territories like Andorra and Monaco. They live well in these places, And so do we. Indirectly this special tax status also attracts 7000 Spaniards who cross the border everyday to work here because a) the huge unemployment rates in Spain mean thay have to seek work here and b) They are paid more here than in their equivalent jobs in Spain and pay less tax. And good for them.

Thanks for giving exposure to the ESG, which I am a member of. If you had just read one article on the homepage you would notice that the ESG is apolitical and is mostly concerned with the monitoring of environmental issues around the bay of Gibraltar. The port of Algeciras, in Spain which shares the bay with Gibraltar is Europe's second largest container port, Bunkering in Algeciras is on par with that in Gibraltar waters. The bay is heavily polluted by heavy industrial activities from Spain, such as air pollution from the CEPSA oil refinery in nearby San Roque and the Acerinox metal plant in Los Barrios, which in 1998 released a radioactive cloud detected in France, Italy Switzerland Germany and Austria. The radioactive levels measured were up to 1000 times higher than normal. Spanish epidemiological studies show that there are increased incidences of cancer, asthma, thyroid problems and leukemias in the communities alongside the bay, Including Gibraltar.

The carbon dioxide issue is a no-brainer. If you had an area of 2.6 square miles containing 30,000 people and placed it over any city in the world with heavy industrial pollution from a nearby foreign country then that would be the place with the highest CO2 emissions in the world p/c. The argument is moronic. We dont have vast area of forest, mountains etc. to offset the statistics like in Spain.

HMS Tireless twice visited the port of Gibraltar for technical reasons, The Spanish press exploited the visits mainly to raise their own profile, a tactic which Spanish politicians and others who hold public office in Spain have been doing for decades, since mention of Gibraltar in the Spanish press always has negative connotations. This might just be why you dont ever hear any good news from your "neighbours", since Spain will always use any issue to denigrate, bully and harass Gibraltar. This is why the less enlightened citizens of Spain continue to believe Gibraltar is a den of thieves etc. it's all related to the ongoing sovereignty claim.

If your motivation in this pointless argument is to have the last word then be my guest, I will not be wasting my time with you anymore.

[Hollis]

1) Stay on topic

2) keep the insults out of the thread.

[Íñigo Montoya]

These links are useless in proving what you are trying to put across, they just show how little you know about the situation. You are just Gib-bashing, Spain's third national sport after bullfighting and domestic violence.
Who’s bashing here? You can dish it out but you can’t take it, huh?


You do know Gibraltar has a special tax status in the EU? This special tax status in not illegal and it is no secret. Gibraltar is a well known and regulated international finance centre because of this and a lot of business comes because of it, just like in other EU territories like Andorra and Monaco.
Yes. Special. Also known as Off-shore Finance Centre, creative-taxation hub, tax-saving financial structure and a lot of euphemisms mostly meaning parasiting productive economies. I just said tax-dumping, which is essentially what you took offence for and are admitting now. Probably because even if it is neither illegal nor secret, it isn’t something to be proud of.
And just for the sake of clarity, Andorra and Monaco are not EU territories.


They live well in these places, And so do we. Indirectly this special tax status also attracts 7000 Spaniards who cross the border everyday to work here because a) the huge unemployment rates in Spain mean thay have to seek work here
Newsflash: there are Gibraltarians working in Spain as well (a much bigger portion of Gibraltar’s population than in the reverse case in fact), and we don’t feel the need to rub it in anybody’s face. There’s also one million britons living and working in Spain, and they are mostly welcome. Anyway, you should check again that number: according to the CIA World Factbook Gibraltar’s working force including non-Gibraltar laborers amounts to 12,000 people. If you detract the 7,000 Spaniards, the more than sizable portion of non-Gibraltarian brits, Indians, Pakistanis, Moroccans and other strangers from that number, then the only Gibraltarian waking up before 11 o’clock is the freaking mayor.


b) They are paid more here than in their equivalent jobs in Spain
That essentially depends on the value of the Gibraltar Pound versus the Euro, which your stores and banks avidly accept.


and pay less tax
:roll:


And good for them.
And good for the employer. I’ve always thought that the relationship between employer and employee is one of mutual benefit. It’s not a charity.


Thanks for giving exposure to the ESG, which I am a member of. If you had just read one article on the homepage you would notice that the ESG is apolitical and is mostly concerned with the monitoring of environmental issues around the bay of Gibraltar. The port of Algeciras, in Spain which shares the bay with Gibraltar is Europe's second largest container port, Bunkering in Algeciras is on par with that in Gibraltar waters. The bay is heavily polluted by heavy industrial activities from Spain, such as air pollution from the CEPSA oil refinery in nearby San Roque and the Acerinox metal plant in Los Barrios, which in 1998 released a radioactive cloud detected in France, Italy Switzerland Germany and Austria. The radioactive levels measured were up to 1000 times higher than normal. Spanish epidemiological studies show that there are increased incidences of cancer, asthma, thyroid problems and leukemias in the communities alongside the bay, Including Gibraltar.

The carbon dioxide issue is a no-brainer. If you had an area of 2.6 square miles containing 30,000 people and placed it over any city in the world with heavy industrial pollution from a nearby foreign country then that would be the place with the highest CO2 emissions in the world p/c. The argument is moronic. We dont have vast area of forest, mountains etc. to offset the statistics like in Spain.

HMS Tireless twice visited the port of Gibraltar for technical reasons, The Spanish press exploited the visits mainly to raise their own profile, a tactic which Spanish politicians and others who hold public office in Spain have been doing for decades, since mention of Gibraltar in the Spanish press always has negative connotations. This might just be why you dont ever hear any good news from your "neighbours", since Spain will always use any issue to denigrate, bully and harass Gibraltar. This is why the less enlightened citizens of Spain continue to believe Gibraltar is a den of thieves etc. it's all related to the ongoing sovereignty claim.
I could act like you've just done here and pretend to be offended whilst for instance denying data compiled in 26 years of study because the wind was blowing southwards (Spain’s to blame! That’s new. Couldn’t it be because of the huge amount of hydrocarbon compounds you import to service your tax-free bunkering market in the Straits?). But I won't.
We are a 47 million people country and we do have problems of all sorts. Sure, we’ve got industry accidents and many more. But we don’t excuse them nor do we dismiss these issues by simply calling the kettle black and forgetting about them until we are forced to do something. Like the phasing-in of double hull oil tankers in all the European Union (which was brought by Spain to the European Parliament, as a matter of fact) including your place (http://www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/2004s057.pdf); and unlike the quite late implementation (a few months ago, after 8 years of commitment) of an internationally agreed tax standard as requested by the OECD (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/14/42497950.pdf), endorsed by G20 and demanded by the UN Committee of Experts on International Cooperation in Tax Matters; or the aforementioned European Court of Justice ruling concerning the yearlong repair of a nuclear submarine whilst disregarding the existing basic safety standards imposed by law.

And you live in a 30,000 inhabitants village, for God’s sake! Your prime minister lives in the same street than you, so to speak. Direct democracy works fine at this scale, so you could’ve changed all this with ease, had you wanted to. Then at least, stop this perennial yet currently unfounded whinging about how the "Spanish bully harasses Gibraltar" with all that "Spanish propaganda crap" (yes, the United Nations, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the G-20, the European Parliament, the Court of Justice of the European Communities, the British Press and all these puppets of the Spanish foreign policy). Don't even try to ceise the higher moral ground until you respect your neighbours. And I am speaking of human beings here, people who shares with you every risk you take but none of the benefits other than being forced to compete unfairly with your "Special" tax policy and lax environmental regulations.

PS: the only who's talking about "the ongoing sovereignty claim" here is yourself. Mind you.


If your motivation in this pointless argument is to have the last word then be my guest, I will not be wasting my time with you anymore.

Thanks. A detail on your part. You stand corrected!

[miguelencanarias]

Hollis, please close this thread, it is going nowhere and only getting nastier.

[Íñigo Montoya]

Don't worry. I'm done.

[Hollis]

Don't worry. I'm done.

Another secret on this forum; After a mod post a warning do not continue the flames.

This thread is done. Once people have cooled down, they should review it. Wonder why the world is always at war? Even on a simple internet forum, people can not keep their heads and flame away. Imagine if some of members where world leaders? The world would be a charred messed.