The man who killed Michael Wittmann

[Eoin666]

REVEALED AFTER 66 YEARS...THE HERO WHO ENDED NAZI TANK ACE'S REIGN OF TERROR


A MODEST British war veteran has finally been credited with killing the German tank commander Michael Wittmann, known as the Black Baron.


Evidence has emerged which proves Trooper Joe Ekins fired the shot that ended the Nazi’s reign of terror.


Historians have argued for more than 60 years over who killed the Baron after the Canadian army, Polish forces and the RAF each claimed credit for the kill in northern France.
Wittmann was a household name in Hitler’s Germany after claiming to have destroyed 138 Allied tanks. But he met his match when he came up against Mr Ekins, of Rushden, Northants, who was serving with the 1st Northampton Yeomanry.


Historians who spent two years researching the battle on August 8, 1944, believe Mr Ekins was the only tank gunner within range of the Black Baron. And his Sherman Firefly tank was the only one fitted with a gun powerful enough to take out the *German’s heavily armoured Tiger.
Widower Mr Ekins, now 86, yesterday welcomed the solving of the 66-year-old mystery, adding that the 30-year-old Baron “deserved to die”.


He said: “In a battlefield I don’t think anyone can really be 100 per cent certain what happened but most historians now seem pretty sure it was me. I volunteered to fight when I was 17 because I saw the dreadful things the Nazis were doing across Europe.


“I felt that anybody who supported the Nazis or who stood by and watched were criminals and I still believe that. Every day this Black Baron guy went out to kill people and when he knocked someone out he put a ring on his gun.


“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his *reputation.
“I’ve got no regrets. He deserved to die and I am glad I was the guy who did it.” Soon after the war the 4th Canadian Armoured Division claimed its forces killed the Baron. Later the 1st Polish Armoured Division and 144 Regiment Royal Armoured Corps also tried to claim credit.


Even the RAF got in on the act, claiming a rocket fired from a Hawker Typhoon from Second Tactical Air Force hit Wittmann’s tank. Thomas Dormer, of Battlefield History TV, which has made a documentary called Wittmann v Ekins: Death Of A Panzer Ace, said: “It took us two years of research to get enough facts to make the film. Joe is an ordinary guy who was in an extraordinary place and did an extraordinary thing.”


The documentary is being released on DVD.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/175175/Revealed-after-66-years-the-hero-who-ended-Nazi-tank-ace-s-reign-of-terror

[custodes]

Nice post and worth the read!

[gaijinsamurai]

I may not agree 100% with Mr. Ekin's depiction of Herr Wittman, but I still respect his accomplishments, and am thankful for his service.

[Niall]

Good news! Well done Joe Ekins :D

[Breerman]

Hate this politicized headline searching BS

[JCR]

They make it sound as if he had killed the Commandant of Auschwitz.
And Wittmann was definitely not a "Baron" :P
In many cases this "Waffen SS were just soldiers" is a bad exuse but with Wittmann it is true, for a change..

[gaijinsamurai]

Wittman, though a member of the Waffen SS, was never involved in any atrocities, although he did help, though his service, to perpetuate the Third Reich.

Anyways, when I hear comments like those of Mr. Ekins, as well as those of the Marines and soldiers who served in the Pacific in WWII, I consider what they went through, and do not take offense.

[Nepeccel]

And Wittmann was definitely not a "Baron" :P


He was called the Black Baron because of similarities to the Red Baron of WW1, the only difference being that Wittmann was in a tank, not because he was an actual baron :D

Well done Joe :)

[Pandemonium]

of course he should have not regret, he was a soldier, wittmann was a soldier, it was a fair fight, but I believe you must always respect your opponent, it was not because Wittmann was good at what he did, that he was a war criminal.
Also, the rings that he recalls, well, that was common practice, you can say the same things about the bombercommand putting a sign on their bombers after each succesfull attack

[Kitsune]

Nice post and worth the read!
It's a disgusting post ("the Nazi's reign of terror") and I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow. Wittmann was a soldier fighting in a war and in his biography there is pretty little that indicates that he was an evil war criminal or anything. There are however indications that even this terrorist Nazi criminal did respect the soldiers fighting against him, even those on the Eastern front, where the hate on both sides was the strongest. It is absolutely disgusting that nowadays the attitude that anyone who fought for Germany in WWII was a criminal becomes more and more common. Ekins may have had his opinion since the war, but even back then there were Allied soldiers who were able to feel respect for the opposing side, despite the war propaganda and the fighting. That is a good characteristic in a soldier, while the lack of such respect is a bad one.

[Arfah]

Well done Mr Ekins !!

There is no such thing as a "nice" nazi. They got what they deserved, whether on the battlefield or at the Nuremburg trials.

[cwjian]

There is no such thing as a "nice" nazi. They got what they deserved, whether on the battlefield or at the Nuremburg trials.

John Rabe begs to differ.

[psb1]

It's a disgusting post ("the Nazi's reign of terror") and I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow.

Wow. Just wow.

[Stormz_STA]

Good job Mr Ekins !!!




There is no such thing as a "nice" nazi. They got what they deserved, whether on the battlefield or at the Nuremburg trials.

x2

[gaijinsamurai]

Inevitable that this would turn into another "German Soldier vs. "Nazi" debate........

[HollywoodMarine]

...I despise people like Ekins..

And I depise people who despise combat veterans.

[Arfah]

John Rabe begs to differ.

I don't care much for beggars either.

[cwjian]

I don't care much for beggars either.

Good for you.

[Britishhawk]

It's a disgusting post ("the Nazi's reign of terror") and I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow. Wittmann was a soldier fighting in a war.

So was Ekins, Wittman was the enemy.. A high valued one at that. Ekins should be extremely proud of his kill, im sure Wittmann was proud of his 138. Of course he deserved to die, it seems you would rather invite Wittmann for tea and congratulate him on killing 138 allied tanks?

[gaijinsamurai]

And I depise people who despise combat veterans.

Ironically, by that logic, you would despise Ekins, since he despises Wittmann! :)

[happyslapper]

Well done Joe. We're much indebted to you.

A soldier of the Nazis is a soldier of the Nazis is a soldier of the Nazis.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well done Joe. We're much indebted to you.

.

Agreed.
It's just too bad when people can't realize that it's not always so black and white, and that sometimes, soldiers are just fighting for what they believe is in their country's best interests, even if they're wrong.

[specialweapons]

I'm a combat vet and I don't think much of this Tommy's attitude.

[domokun]

It's a disgusting post ("the Nazi's reign of terror") and I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow. .

Just like Wittmann, Elkins was soldier. He fought in the war and did his duty. Reign of terror probably was added by idiot journalist, who doesn't know anything about differences between different branches of SS. You know, like small and absolutely unsignificant details like that waffen-SS was part of regular army command structure. Guys who did run concentration camps were from SS-TV, that was bit different part of same organization.


Well done Mr Ekins !!

There is no such thing as a "nice" nazi. They got what they deserved, whether on the battlefield or at the Nuremburg trials.

If some individual British soldiesr took part in looting and maybe raped civilian during war. Does that mean that every British soldier was rapist and looter? How about every Soviet veteran and fallen soldier were in NKVD, in that that executed own soldiers? Even ones that were executed by NKVD? Generalizations are retarded if you apparently don't have much clue about subject, to certain extent generalizations work finely.

BTW. I don't believe that every allied soldier was either NKVD executioner, rapist or looter.


I may not agree 100% with Mr. Ekin's depiction of Herr Wittman, but I still respect his accomplishments, and am thankful for his service.

Same here.


of course he should have not regret, he was a soldier, wittmann was a soldier, it was a fair fight, but I believe you must always respect your opponent, it was not because Wittmann was good at what he did, that he was a war criminal.
Also, the rings that he recalls, well, that was common practice, you can say the same things about the bombercommand putting a sign on their bombers after each succesfull attack

Common practice in every


Inevitable that this would turn into another "German Soldier vs. "Nazi" debate........

Goodwins law just keeps on working.


And I depise people who despise combat veterans.

x2


So was Ekins, Wittman was the enemy.. A high valued one at that. Ekins should be extremely proud of his kill, im sure Wittmann was proud of his 138. Of course he deserved to die, it seems you would rather invite Wittmann for tea and congratulate him on killing 138 allied tanks?

I'd loved to invite guy for nice cup tea (coffee would also work finely) and chat, for christs sake, he was definitely one of best tank commanders in history of warfare. Yeah, I agree that mr. Elkins has very good reason to be proud of his kill, he killed one of most skilled tank crews in history. I'd also give credit to rest of tank crew mr. Elkins served with. Being tank gunner... mr. Elkins didn't work alone, there was three other guys the Firefly quite intimately involved in getting the job done.

[lurker666]

I'm a combat vet and I don't think much of this Tommy's attitude.

Given that the Waffen SS was murdering British prisoners from Dunkirk onwards and the Luftwaffe had killed thousands of British civilians from 1940 I think Ekins is quite entitled to hate the SS and those who fought in it regardless of wether it was one stand out SS oficer he killed or just any enemy tank on the battlefield.

“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his reputation."

Ekins was in a Sherman Firefly intended to destroy Tigers and Panthers and he did his duty destroying the enemy heavy tank and protecting his comrades

[specialweapons]

Given that the Waffen SS was murdering British prisoners from Dunkirk onwards and the Luftwaffe had killed thousands of British civilians from 1940 I think Ekins is quite entitled to hate the SS and those who fought in it regardless of wether it was one stand out SS oficer he killed or just any enemy tank on the battlefield.

“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his reputation."

Ekins was in a Sherman Firefly intended to destroy Tigers and Panthers and he did his duty destroying the enemy heavy tank and protecting his comrades

Most combat vets have a sense of humility. I don't sense it from this guy. I don't care for him.

[gaijinsamurai]

Given that the Waffen SS was murdering British prisoners from Dunkirk onwards and the Luftwaffe had killed thousands of British civilians from 1940 I think Ekins is quite entitled to hate the SS and those who fought in it regardless of wether it was one stand out SS oficer he killed or just any enemy tank on the battlefield.

“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his reputation."

Ekins was in a Sherman Firefly intended to destroy Tigers and Panthers and he did his duty destroying the enemy heavy tank and protecting his comrades

I agree with you, Lurker, and as I stated in an earlier post in this thread, I don't begrudge the veterans their feelings. They were there, and I wasn't. I don't particularly like it when vets of the Pacific say "Japs", but if I had been on Tarawa, Guadalcanal, or Iwo Jima, I'd probably use that word too.

[coltfan111]

Wittman was a brilliant soldier, nobody can deny that. But he volunteered to be part of the elite guard of a twisted idiology that plunged Europe into war and cost the lives of 10's of millions. Why should Ekins have any sympathy for him?He was not a German conscript, he chose to champion the Nazi cause. Maybe we should start raising the same argument for Jihadists and see how far that gets us. I prefer to detatch things from politics when it comes to people like Wittmann, but if you start bashing Ekins for not having a bleeding heart towards him then people will just have to drag politics into it.

[lurker666]

Most combat vets have a sense of humility. I don't sense it from this guy. I don't care for him.

You have a indisputable point there, but I can't really tell his attitudes from the article - the article has only got about 200 words from Ekins in it I'm sure he has a lot more to say, perhaps watching the documentary would clear it up but it's not out yet.

[Nepeccel]

Ekins fought to protect his country from the very real threat of invasion. Britain had been bombed severely and Wittmann had destroyed 138 allied tanks, the soldiers in those tanks were all on Ekins' side. Why should he feel sympathy towards Wittmann or towards any German soldier? If Ekins hadn't killed him, how many more tanks would Wittmann have detroyed?

Modern Germans are in an awkward situation here, I understand that, but look at it from Ekins' point of view.

[Niall]

Ekins has an even greater reason to be proud of his kill and saying Wittman deserved to die because if the Firefly hadn't knocked the Tiger out first then Ekins and his comrades would be number 139.
“I felt that anybody who supported the Nazis or who stood by and watched were criminals and I still believe that." This quote is true because Wittman was defending the Nazi cause, say he was innocent or not but he didn't fight in a grenadier company or a regular panzer platoon, he fought in the Waffen SS.

[specialweapons]

Ekins has an even greater reason to be proud of his kill and saying Wittman deserved to die because if the Firefly hadn't knocked the Tiger out first then Ekins and his comrades would be number 139.
“I felt that anybody who supported the Nazis or who stood by and watched were criminals and I still believe that." This quote is true because Wittman was defending the Nazi cause, say he was innocent or not but he didn't fight in a grenadier company or a regular panzer platoon, he fought in the Waffen SS.

Not all of them were bad people. Look at Max Wunsche who went on to have a productive life after the war.

[Niall]

^ It doesn't matter what they do after the war.Doesn't matter if Wittman bred fluffy kittens in his spare time because that doesn't change the fact he was a soldier in the waffen SS defending the Nazis.

At the age of 22 he joined the Allgemeine-SS ( the lovely fellas who conducted the holocaust) then went on to join the SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler. The Division who murdered 80 British POWs, Wormhoudt massacre.

[specialweapons]

^ It doesn't matter what they do after the war.Doesn't matter if Wittman bred fluffy kittens in his spare time because that doesn't change the fact he was a soldier in the waffen SS defending the Nazis.


I don't even have a desire to continue this with such a closed minded person. Good day.

[saturnin]

Wittman was a brilliant soldier, nobody can deny that. But he volunteered to be part of the elite guard of a twisted idiology that plunged Europe into war and cost the lives of 10's of millions. Why should Ekins have any sympathy for him?He was not a German conscript, he chose to champion the Nazi cause. Maybe we should start raising the same argument for Jihadists and see how far that gets us. I prefer to detatch things from politics when it comes to people like Wittmann, but if you start bashing Ekins for not having a bleeding heart towards him then people will just have to drag politics into it.

X2
it is hard to play humanity card if somebody go with Tiger against you and what more, he voluntered to do so in name of Nazi regime. Wittman was good soldier with sense for tactic (even though it is questionable if his latec tactic decision during battle around Villers-Bocage was smart) but don´t say me that he was all white angel who had no idea what Third Reich do with their opponents or even Judes, commies, Poles, etc. Like most Germans back then he just thought about own benefit from expansive Third Reich. We will have jobs, no more Great Depresion, no more Versaille dictate, we will revenge for everthing because it was all their fault...

At the end question is would it be better if he died just in 1939. And answer is yes. Many innocent lives would be saved.

[coltfan111]

X2
it is hard to play humanity card if somebody go with Tiger against you and what more, he voluntered to do so in name of Nazi regime. Wittman was good soldier with sense for tactic (even though it is questionable if his latec tactic decision during battle around Villers-Bocage was smart) but don´t say me that he was all white angel who had no idea what Third Reich do with their opponents or even Judes, commies, Poles, etc. Like most Germans back then he just thought about own benefit from expansive Third Reich. We will have jobs, no more Great Depresion, no more Versaille dictate, we will revenge for everthing because it was all their fault...

At the end question is would it be better if he died just in 1939. And answer is yes. Many innocent lives would be saved.

The soldiers of the elite SS divisions were 2nd to none. I have no problem saying that, but lets not forget what cause they were comited too.

[therifleman]

Nazi’s reign of terror


I'd say this is journalism at it's worst. Wittmann wasn't a terrorist. He was a soldier who was very good at his job.

Gunther Rall shot down 275 airplanes in WW2. He just died a few months ago. There are not many people who have bad things to say about him.

I disagree with Elkins' attitude but congradulate him on getting his due credit.

[California Joe]

Firstly, half of the silly sh*t in that article was probably embellished by the guy who wrote it. Secondly, when Elkins was busy shooting at Tiger tanks chock full o' Nazis that were bent on killing him, including the ubercool tankstud Michael Wittmann he probably wasn't thinking about anything other than the sh*te in his pants.

I don't give a f*ck what his political leanings, he was surely trying to kill this Brit and all of his friends so you're goddamned right he deserved to die. Are you people all on crack? This isn't a World Cup game we're talking about here.

If you're in an allied tank you don't get a ***** for the mad skills of your black uniform wearing Aryan opponent. You do your best to kill him. Then 60 years later you act like you were saving the world from Nazis when some Hemingway wannabee starts asking you questions...Kitsune, seriously, get over yourself.

[gaijinsamurai]

So, does that mean you wouldn't be drooling over Wittmann's cool black panzer uniform and Knight's Cross as you looked out the hatch of your Sherman, CJ? :)

[saturnin]

I'd say this is journalism at it's worst. Wittmann wasn't a terrorist. He was a soldier who was very good at his job.

Gunther Rall shot down 275 airplanes in WW2. He just died a few months ago. There are not many people who have bad things to say about him.

I disagree with Elkins' attitude but congradulate him on getting his due credit.

since when is killing soldiers of Waffen-SS in battle bad thing. Hell, same go for Wehrmacht or any other military brench of Third Reich. He did his job fighting enemy who started worst war in history. Regime which was fundamentally based on hate and revenge to anyone who was supposed to be responsible for situation in German during 20´s, no matter that that somebody mostly didn´t do anything to hurt German people. Elins (probably) destroyed tanks of Wittman who would otherwise killed people in name of this CRIME regime. This war was not about score but to stop something terrible and save whole europe from this EVIL regime. Normally I am against using words like evil but how else you want shorty describe Nazi rule 1933-1945.

“I’ve got no regrets. He deserved to die and I am glad I was the guy who did it.” amen

[California Joe]

So, does that mean you wouldn't be drooling over Wittmann's cool black panzer uniform and Knight's Cross as you looked out the hatch of your Sherman, CJ? :)

Dude, I would so rock that uniform.

Doesn't mean Trooper Elkins should feel bad about blowing it up...

[gaijinsamurai]

You wouldn't ry to capture Wittmann alive, and force him to strip naked at gunpoint, so you could sell his uniform on e-Bay 65 years later for a million dollars?

[California Joe]

You've been watching Kelly's Heroes again haven't you.

[SBL]

So, does that mean you wouldn't be drooling over Wittmann's cool black panzer uniform and Knight's Cross as you looked out the hatch of your Sherman, CJ? :)
Guys, guys stop the tank! I'm trying to get a look at this guy's loadout.

[gaijinsamurai]

You've been watching Kelly's Heroes again haven't you.

Cross of Iron.

[gaijinsamurai]

"Excuse me Herr Wittmann, can we call a temporary truce while I take a look at your cool uniform? And while we're at it, could I please have my picture taken with you?"

[MN_Air]

I don't have anything against Ekins, since the story was probably embellished wholesale by the journalist. The Wehrmacht wanted to kill allies, and the allies wanted to kill the Wehrmacht. It this were Wittmann in the interview, he would have probably said the same damn thing.

In Nazi Germany, the policies of the Third Reich were just according to the people. Don't bull**** me with the whole "just following orders" or "every German soldier was a horrible person" because that is absolute crap. The Germans fought for what they thought was right, and the Allies fought for what they thought was right. Different sides of the same sword.

[gaijinsamurai]

Our side of the sword wasn't mass-murdering millions of people.

[MN_Air]

Our side of the sword wasn't mass-murdering millions of people.


You are correct, it was not.

Germans were instilled from 1934 (and lets not forget the rampant anti-semitism in Europe throughout the 19th and early 20th century), that Hitler was the messiah, and that was the way the country should be ran. The Americans, British, what-have-you were instilled from the beginning the right to express religion, freedom of speech, due process of law. In essence human rights. It is the same sword in a sense, that both groups of people were taught that the way things were being run was the way that it should be. Albeit what the Nazi's were teaching was horribly wrong.

[AroundTheCorner]

I don't have anything against Ekins, since the story was probably embellished wholesale by the journalist. The Wehrmacht wanted to kill allies, and the allies wanted to kill the Wehrmacht. It this were Wittmann in the interview, he would have probably said the same damn thing.

In Nazi Germany, the policies of the Third Reich were just according to the people. Don't bull**** me with the whole "just following orders" or "every German soldier was a horrible person" because that is absolute crap. The Germans fought for what they thought was right, and the Allies fought for what they thought was right. Different sides of the same sword.

Thank you.

[Kaapeli]

Our side of the sword wasn't mass-murdering millions of people.

Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Plus everything that the commies did. The entire Eastern Europe was sold.

[California Joe]

Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Plus everything that the commies did. The entire Eastern Europe was sold.

Suck it, you try invading a country full of suicidal fanatics based on 1945 era intel.

[gaijinsamurai]

Eat a ****, kaapeli. As much as I abhor what happened in Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, it wasn't murder. How can you even compare them to Auschwitz and Treblinka?
All the Japanese Government had to do was surrender, and those bombs wouldn't have been dropped.


...and by the way, my wife's family was in one of those cities.

[Kaapeli]

Eat a ****, kaapeli. As much as I abhor what happened in Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, it wasn't murder. How can you even compare them to Auschwitz and Treblinka?
All the Japanese Government had to do was surrender, and those bombs wouldn't have been dropped.


...and by the way, my wife's family was in one of those cities.

Of course. All the CIVILIANS had to do was to surrender.

[California Joe]

Nice armchair condescention with the benefit of 60 years of hindsight. Asshead.

[cwjian]

Of course. All the CIVILIANS had to do was to surrender.

They wanted to fight with spears and improvised bombs. They wouldn't have surrendered. And this isn't Desert Storm. Precision bombing doesn't exist yet.

[gaijinsamurai]

My wife's grandmother survived the Tokyo bombings, but lost all of her brothers in the war. Before she died, she told me that in 1945, she hated the Americans for what happened, but before long, she came to realize that the Japanese government and military brought the problems on the Japanese people, and they had no one to blame but themselves for letting Tojo and his kind take control of the country.

What would you have had us do? Invade the Japanese mainland? Beg them to surrender until 1946 or 1947?
Guess what? Bad things happen in war. If you don't want your cities to get bombed, don't fvck with countries that can do it.

[Kaapeli]

Nice armchair condescention with the benefit of 60 years of hindsight. Asshead.

My family lost our entire livelyhood and land in that war, "asshead".

[cwjian]

My family lost our entire livelyhood and land in that war, "asshead".

So did a lot of other families. You're not the only one. Mine lost theirs at the hands of the Japanese.

[SoftLion]

Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Plus everything that the commies did. The entire Eastern Europe was sold.


Of course. All the CIVILIANS had to do was to surrender.

So your basic point is that German concentration camps and other atrocities were equalled/exceeded by the allies. Good luck with that.

[gaijinsamurai]

Kaapeli:

Where? East Prussia? Silesia?

[Kaapeli]

So your basic point is that German concentration camps and other atrocities were equalled/exceeded by the allies. Good luck with that.

No. My point was that drop the "holier than thou" -attitude and respect the soldiers of all sides. I do.

[California Joe]

Where would that be? Finland? If I remember correctly that's where you hail from. So you have no dog in the fight in the Pacific, and although you may actually admire Michael Wittmann and have a hardon for the Soviets you're simply trolling this thread by bringing up the atomic bomb. So f*ck you and your condescention and I await your bullsh*t reply so I can ban you.

[Kaapeli]

Kaapeli:

Where? East Prussia? Silesia?

Karelia. (This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 6 seconds.)

[CG51]

Cross of Iron.

Best.war.movie.ever.

[Kaapeli]

Where would that be? Finland? If I remember correctly that's where you hail from. So you have no dog in the fight in the Pacific, and although you may actually admire Michael Wittmann and have a hardon for the Soviets you're simply trolling this thread by bringing up the atomic bomb. So f*ck you and your condescention and I await your bullsh*t reply so I can ban you.

What I don't like so much is this "THE HERO WHO ENDED NAZI TANK ACE'S REIGN OF TERROR". Hardly "a reign of terror". Just a soldier doing his job. Going to ban me for this?

[California Joe]

Yeah, we've already established that the frigging author probably got an old veteran wound up and took some literary license.

Do you really believe that the old British gunner knew he was shooting at the German tank ace back then and was striking a blow against Naziism? Hell no, he was just trying to survive. Can't you tell sensationalism when you read it?

[gaijinsamurai]

Kaapeli, we can respect the soldiers on all sides who served their countries honorably. I do. But we should still recognize it when governments are clearly in the wrong. We can respect Michael Wittmann, Admiral Yamamoto, and Erich Von Manstien, and still acknowledge the fact that they served evil masters, just as we can respect the sacrifices of Soviet soldiers and still know that Stalin was evil. And I don't blame Finland for taking a somewhat cynical view of the conflict, being that they had to choose the ally that would help them,and that ally was Germany.

[SoftLion]

No. My point was that drop the "holier than thou" -attitude and respect the soldiers of all sides. I do.

You never said that, you are saying that now.

I don't want to put words in Gaijin's keyboard, but I think his comment in regard to mass murdering millions of people was a reference to the purposeful extermination of the Jews, through concentration camps and otherwise, by the Germans. The allies did not engage in concerted ethnic extermination. That is why you come off as an asshole when you try to equate the two on that level.

[gaijinsamurai]

Do you really believe that the old British gunner knew he was shooting at the German tank ace back then.....?

No, because we've already established the fact that he would have tried to save Wittmann's uber-cool and collectable uniform and decorations, and gotten his autograph.

...or I guess that was me we were talking about.

[gaijinsamurai]

You never said that, you are saying that now.

I don't want to put words in Gaijin's keyboard, but I think his comment in regard to mass murdering millions of people was a reference to the purposeful extermination of the Jews, through concentration camps and otherwise, by the Germans. The allies did not engage in concerted ethnic extermination. That is why you come off as an asshole when you try to equate the two on that level.

Thanks, Softlion, and you are right. I agree with Kitsune and Kaapeli in that warriors like Wittmann should be respected, but the masters they served were an evil lot. The sooner they lost, the better.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Best.war.movie.ever.

I joined face book just to be a fan of that page.

Been thinking about changing my last name to Steiner. Shoulda done it back when I was a Corporal though.

[Kaapeli]

You never said that, you are saying that now.

I don't want to put words in Gaijin's keyboard, but I think his comment in regard to mass murdering millions of people was a reference to the purposeful extermination of the Jews, through concentration camps and otherwise, by the Germans. The allies did not engage in concerted ethnic extermination. That is why you come off as an asshole when you try to equate the two on that level.

The average Axis fought for his life, family and against communism. I understand that they were the enemy for you but try not to call people names unless they committed crimes (like mass murder that Wittman & his crew propably didn't).

[Elbs]

The guy wasted a Tiger crewed by Wittman in a f*cking Sherman.

Cojones.

[SoftLion]

The average Axis fought for his life, family and against communism. I understand that they were the enemy for you but try not to call people names unless they committed crimes (like mass murder that Wittman & his crew propably didn't).

The only person I have called a name is you. I didn't say a damn thing about the soldiers on either side.

Is the above your attempt at backing away from your earlier analogy between the holocaust and the actions of the allies, or are you still beating that drum?

[gaijinsamurai]

kaapeli, at the time, we weren't talking about individual soldiers. We were talking about governments.

[coltfan111]

The average Axis fought for his life, family and against communism. I understand that they were the enemy for you but try not to call people names unless they committed crimes (like mass murder that Wittman & his crew propably didn't).

The SS were not "average" axis soldiers though.

[Kaapeli]

The only person I have called a name is you. I didn't say a damn thing about the soldiers on either side.

Well I'm glad it's not personal then. :)


Is the above your attempt at backing away from your earlier analogy between the holocaust and the actions of the allies, or are you still beating that drum?

No, it's not an attempt to back out from anything. I believe bombing civilians was and is always a crime.

[Kaapeli]

The SS were not "average" axis soldiers though.

So wearing the insignia automatically made you a criminal? I disagree.

[HollywoodMarine]

Dude, I would so rock that uniform.


http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr239/Tavman223/Michael_Wittmann.jpg
Michael Wittman photographed one month prior to Operation Overlord
Rock on Joe. :roll:

[SoftLion]

No, it's not an attempt to back out from anything. I believe bombing civilians was and is always a crime.

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that you have no idea what you are talking about. A little tip: you might want to avoid broadcasting your inane opinion equating the holocaust with the actions of the allies at your next dinner party. Just sayin'.

[Kaapeli]

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that you have no idea what you are talking about. A little tip: you might want to avoid broadcasting your inane opinion equating the holocaust with the actions of the allies at your next dinner party. Just sayin'.

Just so you know, I'm not an American. And over here it's the general opinion.

Though we respect American soldiers none the less.

[HollywoodMarine]

We know. Kippis! ;)

[SoftLion]

Just so you know, I'm not an American. And over here it's the general opinion.

I picked up on the former, and feel bad for your ignorance on the latter. You are now required to hug 6 million Jews.

[Kaapeli]

I picked up on the former, and feel bad for your ignorance on the latter. You are now required to hug 6 million Jews.

The majority of Axis members and soldiers had no interest in harassing jews. And I'm certain the Allies and their soldiers wanted nothing to do with communist oppression.

[SoftLion]

The majority of Axis members and soldiers had no interest in harassing jews. And I'm certain the Allies and their soldiers wanted nothing to do with communist oppression.

Just because you are pretending this back and forth is about soldiers does not make it so. As has been beaten to death numerous times, the fact of the matter is that one government had a program to exterminate an entire race. The others did not. You equate the two. You are wrong.

[Kaapeli]

Just because you are pretending this is about soldiers does not make it so. As has been beaten to death numerous times, the fact of the matter is that one government had a program to exterminate an entire race. The others did not. You equate the two. You are wrong.

Wittman was never accused of any war crimes.
And apparently it's a taboo to talk about non-US WWII views here so I'm not going further about that issue.
In my opinion he was a tank ace and deserves respect.

[Karl_Kroenen]

The majority of Axis members and soldiers had no interest in harassing jews. And I'm certain the Allies and their soldiers wanted nothing to do with communist oppression.

I'm going to call bull**** on that. Animosity towards "Jewish bolshevism" (their term not mine) was a critical part of the Nazi ethos. And it was shared by political, military, and civilian members of Germany along with certain parts of the Axis. If you've ever read any sort of contemporary social history of Nazi Germany, you'd know this.

[Kaapeli]

I'm going to call bull**** on that. Animosity towards "Jewish bolshevism" (their term not mine) was a critical part of the Nazi ethos. And it was shared by political, military, and civilian members of Germany along with certain parts of the Axis. If you've ever read any sort of contemporary social history of Nazi Germany, you'd know this.

We weren't nazis. The Axis was far more than just the German Nazis. You should know this.

[MN_Air]

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273975664&sr=8-1

Read the book if you haven't. As it is in every war, there is no such thing as black and white.

[SoftLion]

Wittman was never accused of any war crimes.
And apparently it's a taboo to talk about non-US WWII views here so I'm not going further about that issue.
In my opinion he was a tank ace and deserves respect.

You either:

1. have not read any of my last several posts specifically directing you to the issue of government-sponsored extermination of a race; OR
2. know goddamn well you cannot respond to that issue.

One more time:


As has been beaten to death numerous times, the fact of the matter is that one government had a program to exterminate an entire race. The others did not. You equate the two. You are wrong.

Tee hee, I quoted me. I will now stop this senseless discussion, which I regret has semi-hijacked this thread.

[Kaapeli]

You either:

1. have not read any of my last several posts specifically directing you to the issue of government-sponsored extermination of a race; OR
2. know goddamn well you cannot respond to that issue.

I wish you would understand the choice East Europeans in particular had to do between two evils.

[Inflatable Infidel]

It's a disgusting post ("the Nazi's reign of terror") and I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow. Wittmann was a soldier fighting in a war and in his biography there is pretty little that indicates that he was an evil war criminal or anything. There are however indications that even this terrorist Nazi criminal did respect the soldiers fighting against him, even those on the Eastern front, where the hate on both sides was the strongest. It is absolutely disgusting that nowadays the attitude that anyone who fought for Germany in WWII was a criminal becomes more and more common. Ekins may have had his opinion since the war, but even back then there were Allied soldiers who were able to feel respect for the opposing side, despite the war propaganda and the fighting. That is a good characteristic in a soldier, while the lack of such respect is a bad one.
Awesome post, couldnt put it better myself, and also something you do not see on this forum too often, somebody actually saying something sensible.

[Inflatable Infidel]

Inevitable that this would turn into another "German Soldier vs. "Nazi" debate........

Thanks to no small part on the OP, with the post / article with hate filled bias, bordering racism.

[Inflatable Infidel]

You never said that, you are saying that now.

I don't want to put words in Gaijin's keyboard, but I think his comment in regard to mass murdering millions of people was a reference to the purposeful extermination of the Jews, through concentration camps and otherwise, by the Germans. The allies did not engage in concerted ethnic extermination. That is why you come off as an asshole when you try to equate the two on that level.

Listen, you can twist and turn this in your little damaged mind in any way you wish and can, dont however change the fact that Bomber Harris and LeMay were hell bend on killing as many CIVILIANS as they could, nevermind the soviets. And for excuses about the Luftwaffe Blitz againts Britain, the fact is the RAF killed 10, maybe 20 times as many innocents that Luftwaffe did, all in all, the amount of bs in this topic is mind blowing, especially when comming from supposedly adult people and even moderators of the forum. :cantbeli:

[SoftLion]

Listen, you can twist and turn this in your little damaged mind in any way you wish and can, dont however change the fact that Bomber Harris and LeMay were hell bend on killing as many CIVILIANS as they could, nevermind the soviets. And for excuses about the Luftwaffe Blitz againts Britain, the fact is the RAF killed 10, maybe 20 times as many innocents that Luftwaffe did, all in all, the amount of bs in this topic is mind blowing, especially when comming from supposedly adult people and even moderators of the forum. :cantbeli:

Call it whatever you want chap - your ignorance is downright scary.

[Finn76]

I'm going to call bull**** on that. Animosity towards "Jewish bolshevism" (their term not mine) was a critical part of the Nazi ethos. And it was shared by political, military, and civilian members of Germany along with certain parts of the Axis. If you've ever read any sort of contemporary social history of Nazi Germany, you'd know this.

There was lots of Jews in service of finnish army in WW2.... 3 of them was even to be decorated with iron cross, all of them refused to take it.

[coltfan111]

Awesome post, couldnt put it better myself, and also something you do not see on this forum too often, somebody actually saying something sensible.

"I despise people like Ekins ("he deserved to die") with all my heart - and I don't give a damn if he is a WWII allied vet sacred cow." Yer, very sensible.:roll:


So wearing the insignia automatically made you a criminal? I disagree.

Nobody is saying Wittmann comited war crimes. But he was a memeber of the elite Nazi guard. Do you not understand that the SS were the idiological champions of Nazi Germany? That uniform he wore wore was a symbol of the regieme that cost the lives of untold millons, ruined the lives of hundreds of millions. He chose to be a flag bearer for the 3rd Riech, there is no question about his soldiery, but people who were not even born at the time are bashing a combat vet who took him down for not showing remorse. They are the ones who need to use some ****ing perspective and understand that these men risked thier lives and lost firends and loved ones just to stop a dream of one ****ed up idiology and political party who Witmann was a celebrated hero of.

[Niall]

The average Axis fought for his life, family and against communism. I understand that they were the enemy for you but try not to call people names unless they committed crimes (like mass murder that Wittman & his crew propably didn't).


Wittman was NOT an average axis soldier. He volunteered to join the SS (not the so called innocent waffen SS) before the war started where he was indoctrinated, and lets not joke around here the SS was not a military organisation so he will have had nazi ideologies to think "Hey mum I'm going to join the SS!" at the age of 22. He was then such a great member of the SS that he was promoted to join the SS Liebstandarte Division. This man was not your average German soldier just trying to defend his home, this man was an SS officer!
Don't give me the excuse "oh but he didn't personally commit war crimes!" when Wittman would have commited crimes had he been ordered to, because afterall he did voluntarily join the most evil organisation in history.