Info request: External factors for the American military's choice of the M9

[MustangPWR]

I am working on a paper about how the US military awarded Beretta the contract to replace the 1911 and was wondering if anyone has any information on if there were any external factors or added bonuses tacked on to the contract?

An example: I did read something about cruise missiles being stationed in Italy but it was in a forum post and nothing that I can cite in my paper.

Any information would help, the paper is "geo-politics" themed and I have more then enough information about the selection process and why the pistol was chosen I am just having a hard time locating some external pressures such as NATO using 9mm vs the US using .45, or if there were behind the scenes deals (Italy saying, if you buy our pistol we will do XY&Z for you)

Thanks for any help.

[Hollis]

A side note; "Beretta U. S. A. begins production of the M9/92F at its U. S. facility based in Accokeek, Maryland. 1987." My understanding was that the M9 was made in the USA. I doubt there were any back door deals.

[gaijinsamurai]

IIRC, the original M9s were made in Italy.
There have been rumors of back door deals from the very beginning, but as far as I know, nothing that's been substantiated.
The runner-up in the trials was the Sig Sauer P226, and I think a lot of what made the DOD go with the Beretta was business/contractual issues.

[MustangPWR]

Thanks for the help guys

[gaijinsamurai]

You might want to research the issue a little more, Mustang. I'm going off memory of what happened 20+ years ago (Has the Beretta been in service that long!?!?!).

[G3SG1]

I think at that time the general feeling was that indeed the Beretta was a fine and reliable combat pistol. More info about the trials:


http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-11/2009111213533-beretta92.pdf



I always wondered who was the genius who put the 92 model in Lethal weapon and Die Hard movies and the sales boomed.Or it just happened?

[MustangPWR]

I have seen that American Rifleman article and a few others on the JSSAP trials, popular mechanics wrote a good one as well. I just didnt know if there were some facts that have come out over the years that are not main stream or less then desirable. I don't think that there will be anything but it does not hurt to ask. Thanks

[California Joe]

The Accokeek plant is right up the road from the Naval base I used to work on. I've been through that factory a couple of times. Like Minion said, congressional politics play a part in damned near every contract...

[Chulo]

The NRA Rifleman magazine had a multi part article on the M9

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?cid=24&id=2000

[Waterman]

At that time (mid 80's) there was a big push within NATO to standardize calibers as much a possible. The US military's switch to 9mm was a bow to that standardization, as well as an attempt to have a pistol that was better suited to female hand. At least that is what I remember hearing at the time.

[Hollis]

NATO was whining about ammunition logistics, females shot lousy with the 1911's but better with a 9mm, the P226 out shot and out performed the XM9 but the P226 was more expensive than the XM9. The 92F and the 92FS out shot every other (not the P226) competitor's model, 'cept maybe the Ruger P85 and S&W's entry. And congressional politics had a hand with a certain facility being built in their district.


Pretty much par for the course, everyone can shoot a 9mm reasonably, but for some reason, .45 acp the scores drop a lot. If there were deals, it was back yard pork barrel stuff not missile sites in Italy.

[Hollis]

Grandfather was taught old school when he served. He would always out shoot me, one handed, hand shaking up and down from age and caffiene. Then their are shooters in the female gender like Jessie Abbate who can outshoot alot of SOCOM. Its the training in my humble opinion that was lost...


It is cheaper to buy easier stuff than to train. My daughter is pretty small and she has shot everything I own. There subjective and objective recoil. Often a new shooter will over react to what they think will be a lot of recoil. Training does away with all of that, where the shooter actually deals with objective recoil (actual) not the boogie man recoil in their head.

[G3SG1]

after the slide failure and the injuries of a Seal the issue became more debatable ( you ain't Seal until you eat Italian steel :)) .

On the same time i remember that in a Greek ipsc match a couple of participants -Israelis who used professionally Berettas for years ( then went to Glocks) were puzzled with these stories because they didn't have any problems with the pistol.

[Krag]

It also has to be rememberd that all the 1911s in U.S. military inventory pre-dated 1945. They were just plain worn out and had been rebuilt (too)many times. While the 1911 was a fine pistol it was also dated, too heavy, low magazine capacity, made from materials that did not stand up to environmental extremes like alloy/polymer pistols, etc., etc.

While I love my 1911s (I own eight of them) I have always believed that they are an "experts" handgun and not well suited for mass general issue. Pistols such as the SIG, Glock or M9 are.

[G3SG1]

While I love my 1911s (I own eight of them) are.

posts like his ruin my day in our gun controlled country. :-(

[martinexsquaddie]

uk practial shooters raved about 1911 till they were banned:)
soldiers inculding special types never really saw the attraction the actual power diff between nato 9mm fmj and .45 fmj is not actually that great

[hank2222]

the biggest problem with the m9 is over finding good mag for the pistol and running the right type of ammo in the pistol.. the big problem in the military is you have to use a hardball round for combat ..but personal use i would a nice 124.grain hollow point round as a personal defense round and not feel under armed with m9 ..


give a good sets of sights and give it a love in the trigger dept area with a tigger job to tune up the double action pull and a get set of of mags to run in it ..i would not feeol like iam undergunned when carrying it on the streets for personal protection or duty use..

[G3SG1]

the biggest problem with the m9 is over finding good mag for the pistol and running the right type of ammo in the pistol.. the big problem in the military is you have to use a hardball round for combat ..but personal use i would a nice 124.grain hollow point round as a personal defense round and not feel under armed with m9 ..


give a good sets of sights and give it a love in the trigger dept area with a tigger job to tune up the double action pull and a get set of of mags to run in it ..i would feel that iam undergunned when carrying it on the streets for personal protection or duty use..


a couple of friend cops in the anti Narcotics section bought the Vertec model and they say it shoots all kinds of ammo without jams.
Also in the 92 story i never heard any problems about the early Taurus PT 92 models .

[hank2222]

i was in the military at the time when the slide failures where happening ..what they did not tell the public was this facts about the why the slide failures where happening to the m9 pistol..the seals where running super hot ball ammo in the pistol design more for the mp5 subgun ..for those who have trained on the mp5 the gun needs a little hot round to make it run right ..so the ball powder in the m885 round was a little hotter than a normal civiy model 9mm cal hardball round plus with the high round count the seals where doing with the pistol ..

the problem was the high round count of over pressure hot ammo cause the slides to break..that why the military came out with the one memo about useing only this ammo in the pistol and nothing else ..plus what happens to a pistol when feed some many high pressure rounds to though the pistol it going to break and break it did ..

[G3SG1]

i was in the military at the time when the slide failures where happening ..what they did not tell the public was this facts about the why the slide failures where happening to the m9 pistol..the seals where running super hot ball ammo in the pistol design more for the mp5 subgun ..for those who have trained on the mp5 the gun needs a little hot round to make it run right ..so the ball powder in the m885 round was a little hotter than a normal civiy model 9mm cal hardball round plus with the high round count the seals where doing with the pistol ..

the problem was the high round count of over pressure hot ammo cause the slides to break..that why the military came out with the one memo about useing only this ammo in the pistol and nothing else ..plus what happens to a pistol when feed some many high pressure rounds to though the pistol it going to break and break it did ..


this post explains a lot .thank you.

[Karaahmetoglu]

I remember reading in one of my books, which stated that the P226 had won the competition, however cost had favored the 92.

[Arnie100]

It's kinda funny that the US would adopt the compact P228 as the M11. :)

[Clear_blues]

Some of my sgts complain bitterly about the loss of the 1911 whenever the m9 shows up. Like some of the other posters have said, pork barrel projects and gender issues probably forced the change. Happening now with the F-22, probably happen with any switch from the m-4/m-16

[baboon6]

It's kinda funny that the US would adopt the compact P228 as the M11. :)

AFAIK that was a replacement for the .38 revolver used by aircrew, CID agents and a few other specialist types.

[gaijinsamurai]

I remember reading in one of my books, which stated that the P226 had won the competition, however cost had favored the 92.

I have also read and heard that. i think the rumor floated around for a long time in the '80s and early '90s, but I never saw anything to substantiate it. I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the folks at Sig/Sauer encouraged the rumor. :)

[martinexsquaddie]

funny thing is the British army used the same nato 9mm for subguns as it did in 9mm brownings which is much hotter than civillian 9mm as several civvy shooters have found out to there cost when target shooting.
your shooting goes to rat**** when using service ammo:)

[endwahl]

Another little mentioned factor was that Sig/Sauer made the mistake of partnering with SACO Maremont in the competition. Saco was responsible for production of the M60 machine-gun, and the numerous reliability problems with that system had come to a head by1980. By the time the M11 was adopted Sig had opened their New Hampshire facilities for assembly.