Russian Marines: few in number but high in morale

[hist2004]

The marines are a particular breed of specially-trained naval forces. Their primary function is to rapidly seize enemy naval bases, coastal sectors and entire islands, to break up coastal defences and clear the way for an assault by the main force. Their duties also include evacuating Russian diplomatic missions and citizens from war zones, and fighting terrorism. The marines' slogan: where we are, so is victory.Every morning begins with a parade for the Guards Brigade of Marines at the Baltic Fleet. It's a tradition. The brigade is a permanent-readiness unit. This means that the marines can go into action at any time. They can turn up anywhere in the world and go into battle within 24 hours. Like in January 1995, when the marines were sent from the Baltics to Chechnya overnight and the next day stormed Dudayev's palace. Forty-six of them died in Groznyy that day, but the brigade achieved its aims despite its casualties.

One of the marines' main disciplines is training for an airborne assault. This is one of the marines' specialities.The main strike force of the marines' Baltic Brigade is their airborne assault battalions. They have a special training programme. They have to master all types of firearms and be skilled at unarmed combat with elements of oriental martial arts. Amphibious vehicle crews have a separate and no less intensive training programme. Here, in the bay. These APCs can operate in water with a swell of up to half a metre. In storm weather, the marines use special caterpillar-tracked transporters. These machines regularly put to sea for their crews to test their watertightness. Any leak in war conditions can lead to loss of equipment and men, so the marines take good care of their vehicles. The brigade's mess also has its own marine features. Only the marines get a menu with a choice of several starters and main courses. The men of the assault units also get extra food rations. [Chef] Marines have to be healthy and strong, so they can stand up for their country and defend it.The number of marines in Russia's armed forces is 24,000. The USA has nearly 10 times as many. But that doesn't bother our marines. They're confident that in terms of fighting ability and morale they have no equals. [Aleksey Khristoforov, parachute instructor] The main thing is a man's spirit. If a man has backbone and the desire to win, then he'll win.

Regards,
Hist2004

[mack pl]

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/smolenskcrew.jpg
Photograph on a French postcard dated 1904, of a group of Russian marines from the ship 'Smolensk'.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/russian.htm

[hist2004]

They have a special training programme

Does anyone have any details? Information on their training program
is not readily available.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[RomanS]

All i'm going to say is -

Morskaya Pehota (Russian marines) is one of our best prides we have in Russian military.

Hitler's troops and supporters fighting against our people in WW2, always **** their pants when NAVAL INFANTRY with their "telniki" showed up.

In Afganistan they proved to be the best naval "asskicking" force on the ground, standing proud to their VDV brothers.

In Chechnya "beards" continued stocking **** in their pants when black berets SHOWED UP.

LONG LIVE BROTHERS

[Jack Mehoff]

Russian marines are volunteers or conscripts?

[Abbyy]

Russian marines are volunteers or conscripts?

Always been conscripts. Now all permanent-readiness units in transition to volunteer system

[Mitch Rapp]

Actually there is only one air assault batallion (DShB) attached to every Naval Infantry Regiment or Brigade. One of the companies in each Air Assault Batallion is airborne (paratroopers). These are the toughest commandos. They have been sent to fight the hardest battles in Checnia

[obd]

No offense to anyone in Russia's elite OMON or spetsnaz units, but it is said that in Chechnya, the Mujahideen sought out to fight and kill the OMON and Spetsnaz with mixed results: sometimes inflicting casualties and sometimes getting bloodied themselves. But there was one group of Russians that the Chechens avoided fighting when they could: Russian Marines...In Checnya, it id often intercepted over the radio when Russian Marines show up "they are here, lets go".

Nobody, not even the Spetsnaz and OMON (interior) troops are freared by the rebels more than the Russian Marine.........

[obd]

If anyone is interested in reading about Chechnya from an America perspective I suggest you read "The Man who Tried to Save the World". Its about humanitarian relief worker Fred Cuny (probably Permski has heard of him heheheheh).

Fred Cuny was a true American hero from Texas. He saved tens of thousands of innocent people all over the world, from floods in PAkistan, earthquakes and mudslides in south America, famine in Somalia, a surrounded city Sarejevo in Bosnia, etc etc etc....

His last humanitarian work was done in Chechnya, where he was killed....Russian of course claim it was the Chechens, and Chechens claim it was Russians....It is a real life mystery where the author travels to Chechnya to uncover the truth of Fred Cuny's murder in Chechnya.......Read the book and it wil nelighted you about the region......

I dont want to ruin the conclusion of the author but either way, there are no clear answers......

As they say, "In Chechnya everything is the truth and everything is also a lie"...................

[RomanS]

No offense to anyone in Russia's elite OMON or spetsnaz units, but it is said that in Chechnya, the Mujahideen sought out to fight and kill the OMON and Spetsnaz with mixed results: sometimes inflicting casualties and sometimes getting bloodied themselves. But there was one group of Russians that the Chechens avoided fighting when they could: Russian Marines...In Checnya, it id often intercepted over the radio when Russian Marines show up "they are here, lets go".

Nobody, not even the Spetsnaz and OMON (interior) troops are freared by the rebels more than the Russian Marine.........

And you know that from ?

experience in Chechnya?

talking to Russian veterans ?

talking to Spetsnaz units?

talking to OMON veterans?

[FuturePara]

16ObRSPN said that they intercepted radio tramsmissions translating to "Danger, Marines!" and had seen Chechens jumping off roofs of buildings to avoid them.

[anonymous individual]

Yup. He posted about that awhile ago.

[obd]

Well OBR SPn, I know this from reading several books about Chechnya, including books like "Chechnya: Calamity in Caucaus'" and "The Man who Tried to Save the World", etc etc etc........Ever heard of Lester Grau 16ObrSpn????? hmm? I bet there are alot of people on this forum from the special forces and Marine commuinty who have heard of this man....I have read virtualy everything he has written on Chechnya as well as the Russian invasion of A-stan..and as Im sure you know by now, America was VERY heavily involved in that war.........Before you flame me, I suggest you do some research on him so you dont sound like a fool by saying something like "who is he? He isnt Russian so he doesnt know anything about Chechnya".............
In addition, one can go to FAS.org and read tons of stuff, including Russian military documents, as well as United States Marine Corps analysis of both sides, done by experts in the field.............

There are many great sources of unbiased information.......I honestly would not trust any information coming from Russian soldiers or from Chechen rebels as so many of them will simply lie and since it is an ongoing war, they have a vested interesest in telling you what they think you want to hear.................

Again, no offense to you OBrSpn but honestly man, I know your Russian and a military enthusiast and I defer to you on any and all issues with regard to Russian weaponry, but with regard to Chechnya, I defer to experts from my country who have spent time there...or certain experts from your country...Im not sure if you know this 16Spr, but American CIA was involved in Chechnya way back because of two reasons:

1. The fear that nuclear weapons were acquired by the Chechens, as they initially hinted at, throught the nuclear facility at Bamut.......Ever heard of Bamut OBr???? Hmm? Well, I'm sure that you have.....because Bamut was the site of fierce battles.....and it is also the site of a Russian nuclear missile base..well, former Russian base anyway.......that was supposedly cleared of warheads before the war......but the CIA wanted to make sure...

2. the CIA was greatly worried about reports of increased Iranian operations in Chechnya, and so was Russia.....especially since the war quickly shifted from being a "naitonalist war" to a "religious nationalist war"....

[Trigger]

For someone so 'well read', you seem to have missed the fact that 16OBRSPN (you know, the guy you've been replying to) has not posted in this thread. A couple of others mentioned him. Since you obviously have no clue about him, I'll say this: He's seen more and done more than you ever will. So show a little respect.

[16 OBr SpN]

Well OBR SPn, I know this from reading several books about Chechnya, including books like "Chechnya: Calamity in Caucaus'" and "The Man who Tried to Save the World", etc etc etc........Ever heard of Lester Grau 16ObrSpn????? hmm? I bet there are alot of people on this forum from the special forces and Marine commuinty who have heard of this man....I have read virtualy everything he has written on Chechnya as well as the Russian invasion of A-stan..and as Im sure you know by now, America was VERY heavily involved in that war.........Before you flame me, I suggest you do some research on him so you dont sound like a fool by saying something like "who is he? He isnt Russian so he doesnt know anything about Chechnya".............

First of all, why the hell are you responding to me? I didn't even post here! :)
I've heard of Lester Grau, and if you think he knows the info circling in our intelligence community, you're dead wrong.


In addition, one can go to FAS.org and read tons of stuff, including Russian military documents, as well as United States Marine Corps analysis of both sides, done by experts in the field.............

So what's your point?
Militarywise, the whole Chechnyan conflict has been studied down to the bones. You can go ahead and read all the books and websites, but that **** won't equal a SINGLE day out there. It's easy for people like you to "analyse" and critisize soldiers while sitting your ass in a safe and warm chair in your nice little home, with nice food, warm shower, and an 8-hour sleep.

As for the rest of your bull****, I'm not even going to waste my time commenting on it.
Since you "know" everything, I'm sure you don't need my response. :)

[obd]

Opps, sorry. Mixed up Permski with 16ObrSpn......I was looking at the Avatar..........my bad.....Hey, in my defense they do post on the same topics all the time and they COULD be the same person hehehehehe......

Just kidding, I really did mix them up.......Saw the Avatar of the Russkie and imediately thought "16obrSpn"......then thought "Permski".....hey its late where Im from and I was tired........not to mention I worked 11 hours today!!! Argh.......life is expensive.......

[16 OBr SpN]

Nobody, not even the Spetsnaz and OMON (interior) troops are freared by the rebels more than the Russian Marine.........

Interior Troops are VV, and special units affiliated with them (Vitiaz', Rus', etc.). OMON, and OMSN are police units. They have different structures, and different objectives.

Next time, you should read something else instead of "unbiased analysts"!
:lol:

[RomanS]

Ever heard of Bamut OBr???? Hmm? Well, I'm sure that you have.....because Bamut was the site of fierce battles.....

LOOOOL

obd nice move, asking a veteran of Chechen war if he knows where Bamut is, or what was happening there.

thats fukin great....

[Groove]

Hitler's troops and supporters fighting against our people in WW2, always **** their pants when NAVAL INFANTRY with their "telniki" showed up.

Even the WaffenSS guys ? I dont mean the late war guys but the elite WaffenSS.

I love Permskiis sight of the Russian Military :)

Btw - there was an interview in TV with a German MG42 Operator which fought in russia. He wasnt elite just normal Wehrmacht. So he told how the russian attacked their fortified lines.

He said the 1st and 2nd wave of attackers had weapons but they had not really a chance against the 42s. The 3rd and 4th wave just had their "Huuuurrrrrraaaaaa" yell and they had to pick up the weapons of their comrades which were lying dead in field.

The last word of this old guy was : "Das waren arme Schweine" - " This were poor pigs ( bastards)".

You never tell us such stories Permskii. Or stories about Stalingrad where the Red Army positioned MGs behind the own rushing guys so nobody tries to come back as they would be shot.

Greetings to the Immortal Russian Gods Of War !

[RomanS]

Hitler's troops and supporters fighting against our people in WW2, always **** their pants when NAVAL INFANTRY with their "telniki" showed up.

Even the WaffenSS guys ? I dont mean the late war guys but the elite WaffenSS.

I love Permskiis sight of the Russian Military :)

Btw - there was an interview in TV with a German MG42 Operator which fought in russia. He wasnt elite just normal Wehrmacht. So he told how the russian attacked their fortified lines.

He said the 1st and 2nd wave of attackers had weapons but they had not really a chance against the 42s. The 3rd and 4th wave just had their "Huuuurrrrrraaaaaa" yell and they had to pick up the weapons of their comrades which were lying dead in field.

The last word of this old guy was : "Das waren arme Schweine" - " This were poor pigs ( bastards)".

You never tell us such stories Permskii. Or stories about Stalingrad where the Red Army positioned MGs behind the own rushing guys so nobody tries to come back as they would be shot.

Greetings to the Immortal Russian Gods Of War !

who won the war?

[Groove]

Russian Winter - if you mean the WW2.

Russian Winter won the war against Napoleon too.

[RomanS]

Russian Winter - if you mean the WW2.

Russian Winter won the war against Napoleon too.

than we have a case of "SHUT THE FUK UP" and keep on walking.

[Groove]

Lol Permskii, you are da man !

Try to bring some arguments instead of dumb insults.

[Deuterium]

Russian Winter - if you mean the WW2.

Russian Winter won the war against Napoleon too.

That's a stretch, a big factor yes, but a stretch.

[Groove]

I just tried to get down to Permskiis level...

But its ok now

[StukaJr]

Hitler's troops and supporters fighting against our people in WW2, always **** their pants when NAVAL INFANTRY with their "telniki" showed up.

Even the WaffenSS guys ? I dont mean the late war guys but the elite WaffenSS.

What about elite Waffen SS? What claims does elite Waffen SS holds on the Eastern Front? True, they were given front roles in most spearhead operations but when Soviets started pushing back - they rolled back together with the regular troops just the same...




Btw - there was an interview in TV with a German MG42 Operator which fought in russia. He wasnt elite just normal Wehrmacht. So he told how the russian attacked their fortified lines.

He said the 1st and 2nd wave of attackers had weapons but they had not really a chance against the 42s. The 3rd and 4th wave just had their "Huuuurrrrrraaaaaa" yell and they had to pick up the weapons of their comrades which were lying dead in field.


Read more books and watch less TV... I'm sure he saw all of that action unfolding in the sites of his MG42 - due to such minute details.

Such is a fate of the attacking side during WWII - cover vast expanses of open ground while closing distance with entrenched enemy, interlocking machinegun fire, pre-targeted support fire etc. I assure you, the advancing german troops had simular challenges when facing russian trenches - often conviniently left out of certain memoirs.

As for 3rd, 4th wave being sent in without weapons - that's complete bullocks! The only time I've heard of it was during Civil War of 1918 and only then, during early and most desperate stages of the fighting...

I just love how some german generals (like Melentin) are quick to discount Soviet Tactics as primitive in their memoirs but forget to mention that every chapter in their book pushes them hundreds of miles closer to Berlin... The "best" quote when he called constant artillery barrages of his positions as "uncreative" and "poor"... Ha! I'm sure he'd call US carpet bombing technique a poor strategy - perfect cause of a sore looser...



The last word of this old guy was : "Das waren arme Schweine" - " This were poor pigs ( bastards)".!

Since when did swine become a synonym for bastards? Apparently, someone is still bitter, decades after having his arse kicked - I'm sure I'll take his words as gospel...



You never tell us such stories Permskii. Or stories about Stalingrad where the Red Army positioned MGs behind the own rushing guys so nobody tries to come back as they would be shot.


You watched "Enemy at the Gates" one too many times - like I've said, watch less ratings driven entertainment and read more, if you want to make any scense in "Military History" forums... Other than that stupid movie - I don't know where that bullsh1t originated from, in Stalingrad, out of all places...



Greetings to the Immortal Russian Gods Of War !

"than we have a case of "SHUT THE FUK UP" and keep on walking"
LOL - couldn't have said it better myself :)

[StukaJr]

I just tried to get down to Permskiis level...

But its ok now

Apparently, the rest of your posts were so naive that nobody noticed the irony ...

[Groove]

Stuka you are so pr0 on WW2.

1st - i read enough books - you can be sure of that.

2nd - What is "Enemy At The Gates" is it a ww2 movie ?

3rd - I translated the sentence with pigs - but its like "lost in translation" so bastards would fit better if i translate it into english.

4rd - Considerings Permskiis permanent glorifying of the russian army they must be immortal - it was sarcasm.

But thx for all the explenation of my postings and all the quotes - now you can back to the Call Of Duty Board !

Greetings

[StukaJr]

Ah - well, try to generalize less and keep personal opinions to the minimum and you should do fine. Swine translates into bastard - I just hope you are not looking into linquistics as a carreer opportunity...

Other than that - backing up your bullsh1t would go a long way. I'm personally interested in learning of some historical proof of:

1) Soviet command sending entire attack waves of unarmed soldiers at the german lines in WWII
2) "Red Army" killing every single man returning from a failed attack

Other than that - I'm not interested in a discussion with you - Put up or Shut up. Book refferences with page numbers, internet links - anything

[radon]

But they still had high losses. Everyone knows that. That also something

[MáximoPoder]

You never tell us such stories Permskii. Or stories about Stalingrad where the Red Army positioned MGs behind the own rushing guys so nobody tries to come back as they would be shot.

Greetings to the Immortal Russian Gods Of War !


You are watching too much Enemy at the Gates..

HUAHUAHUA :lol:

[Pepper's Bandito]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but that famous sniper, Zietsev? (the one who killed all those krouts in Stalingrad, and was featured in the book War of the Rats, and The enemy at the gates) was origionally a Russian Marine who volunteered for service in Stalingrad. The movie portrayed him as an army draftee.

[ArtofPain]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but that famous sniper, Zietsev? (the one who killed all those krouts in Stalingrad, and was featured in the book War of the Rats, and The enemy at the gates) was origionally a Russian Marine who volunteered for service in Stalingrad. The movie portrayed him as an army draftee.
Yes he was a Marine (Pacific Fleet). Than he went to infantry (284-th Division of 62-d Army). Here is his own memuars http://zajcev-vasilij.viv.ru/cont/snajper1/1.html

[GazB]

Russian Winter - if you mean the WW2.

So if the Russian winter defeated both the French and the Germans yet the Russians manage to cope with it every year it is no surprise both were defeated by the Soviets.

The reality is that frostbite and pneumonia killed on both sides with no bias for Russian or Nazi.
Claiming the Russian winter won anything is to excuse the fact that Europe couldn't defeat Napoleon or Germany at the time yet the Russians/Soviets did.


2nd - What is "Enemy At The Gates" is it a ww2 movie ?

That movie was fiction. The only units sent into battle unarmed like that were penal battalions. Unlike WWI when the Tsars had to import weapons by WWII the Soviets were self sufficient in small arms.


Considerings Permskiis permanent glorifying of the russian army they must be immortal - it was sarcasm.

So if I had a problem with a Brit glorifying the British Army my solution would be to make fun of the British Army? Or if I didn't like what an Israeli said here I should poke fun at the Israeli Defence Force... ie drag out all of their failures? Interesting idea, but that would require that I lost all respect for the British Army and the IDF. Perhaps your problem is you have no respect for a force that might have made a lot of mistakes but made them doing the right thing for their country. I am sure the country you come from never makes mistakes and is pure and clean.

Going to tell me to go back to the OpFp boards?


But they still had high losses. Everyone knows that. That also something

And if Western Europe hadn't folded so quickly and kept fighting they might have had horrific losses too. The reality was that everyone except the germans was ready for WWI again. The Germans started WWII ready to fight WWII and its opponents either had to learn fast or fold. The Brits had somewhere to retreat to... no one else in Europe had that luxury. The Soviets no only had to learn quickly, they had to take initially huge losses in material and manpower and how to fight, they also had to evacuate their entire industrial capacity past the Urals... and Groove thinks it was the weather...

[Groove]

Ah - well, try to generalize less and keep personal opinions to the minimum and you should do fine. Swine translates into bastard - I just hope you are not looking into linquistics as a carreer opportunity...

Other than that - backing up your bullsh1t would go a long way. I'm personally interested in learning of some historical proof of:

1) Soviet command sending entire attack waves of unarmed soldiers at the german lines in WWII
2) "Red Army" killing every single man returning from a failed attack

Other than that - I'm not interested in a discussion with you - Put up or Shut up. Book refferences with page numbers, internet links - anything

You still didnt get this schwein=pig / poor bastards i tried to explaint to you ? Sorry maybe its too high for you.

I just told what this German Guy was telling. He felt sorry for the russians dying there.

And nice try you write "every single man" - i didnt said that boy !

Btw. you didnt mentioned any books or pages - dont forget - you are the big book reader in here.

[Groove]

@GazB


So if I had a problem with a Brit glorifying the British Army my solution would be to make fun of the British Army? Or if I didn't like what an Israeli said here I should poke fun at the Israeli Defence Force... ie drag out all of their failures? Interesting idea, but that would require that I lost all respect for the British Army and the IDF. Perhaps your problem is you have no respect for a force that might have made a lot of mistakes but made them doing the right thing for their country. I am sure the country you come from never makes mistakes and is pure and clean.

Going to tell me to go back to the OpFp boards?

Its normal that you tell that your countries army is great and so on. But when Permskii writes about the Russian army - its like they are immortal. I dont disrespect russian or other countries forces. But do you see the difference between the words of some ppl which were really fighting in a conflict where they comrades died and where they killed their opponents and Permskiis fantastic russian uber-soldiers stories ?

Russia liberated Europe in WW2 like the West Allies, that is not the question here. Its a fact that the russian winters combined with the West front helped the russian "war factory" to get build up behind the Ural.

I just dont like glorifying a army too much because the greatest russian UBER-SOLDIER needs only one bullet through his head and he is dead like any other human on the earth.

I hope you understand what im trying to say GazB - at least its possible to talk with you :)

Greetings

[MEGR]

Russian Marines sound cool? Any books about them I can check out?

[Kitsune]

About the German/Soviet performance comparision: Would the Soviets have won the war with the Western Allies being neutral? I doubt it. Would they have won the war if the Americans and British had supported Germany, giving it only the economic support, the Soviets recieved? Definitly not. And even less if the Western Allies had fought alongside the Germans.

Considering the vast numbers of enemies the Germans did quite well. Actually no one, not the British, not the Americans, not the French would have done better facing these odds. And certainly not the Soviets. But they excelled in expending their own troops without remorse. Thats why the Germans killed 3 to 4 Soviet soldier for each one they lost. (I am waiting for someone to bring up some of these "new Soviet sources first time open to the west" that shows that the Soviets lost fewer soldiers than the Germans...STUNNING NEW DISCOVERY about WWII...)



On word to StukaJr. You may be biased against the Germans. That is your privilege. But with this:

Groove wrote:

The last word of this old guy was : "Das waren arme Schweine" - " This were poor pigs ( bastards)".!


Since when did swine become a synonym for bastards? Apparently, someone is still bitter, decades after having his arse kicked - I'm sure I'll take his words as gospel...
devaluating comment against this German veteran you are wrong. To say about someone he would be an "armes Schwein" in German is exactly like saying he would be a "poor bastard" in English. The analogy goes even so far that calling him a "Schwein" only is an offense ( to call someone a "bastard" in english is one one too, isn't it?) but with the "arm" before it, it changes to a remark of compassion, like "poor bastard". Its not logical, I know, but it is the way it is.

All in all I found it always suprising how low the hate versus their former enemies is with German vets. Even towards the Russians. The other way round it is a different matter though. And as far as mendacious biograpgies are concerned...compared to those of Soviet generals like Zhukov (who might hvae otherwise been a great man) they are astoundingly neutral and selfcritic. Have you ever read one of a Soviet general? A string of heroic Red Army deeds, one gets the impression as if the Russians were at leat 3 times as effective fighting machines as the Germans...one wonders why it took so long to get the Germans out. On the other hand win reading them one also gets the impression that the Germans were possibly outnumbering the Russians, that may explain it then.
(Ok to be fair, Zhukov couldn't be very neutral even if he wanted, he lived in Stalins Russia after all...and Stalin soon was after him).


Ah yes. Groove...
Its a fact that the russian winters combined with the West front helped the russian "war factory" to get build up behind the Ural.
You are right with this, the Russian winter was decisive. Hitler had gambled that the German Wehrmacht with its excellence in Blitzkrieg could defeat the Soviet Union very fast. So he send them in without having Germany preparared for any lenghty war, even leaving the British job undone...In 1942 the German industry was producing more consumer goods than military ones, even in 1943, the British produced more military stuff than the Germans (is there anyone surprised?...Its true!) only then was the German economy set on war footing. Not faster than Germanys enemies, but slower. But he underestimated the stability of Stalins regime, and the start of the Russian winter stopped the offensive. The mud of the springtime proved a problem as well. As the offensive continued in 1942, the Germans had lost crucial time, while the Soviets had recovered from the shock of the immense onslaught. In 1941 the Soviet system was near collapse, as close as it would be never again (until 50 years later that is). So the winter saved the Soviets. But of course, Hitler should have planned for this. Instead he took the chance, hoping for the best. And someone who gambles again and again (like Hitler essentially had done all the way he came) one looses in the end.

But with this
Russia liberated Europe in WW2 like the West Allies, that is not the question here. you are wrong. The Soviets liberated no one.

[bison3255]

:roll:

[StukaJr]

About the German/Soviet performance comparision: Would the Soviets have won the war with the Western Allies being neutral? I doubt it.


Answering this quiestion would hijack this thread and I would like to avoid that as much as possible. Start a new thread and I'll be happy to contribute as the subject is not as easy as repeating ratio figures that historians bring up.



But they excelled in expending their own troops without remorse


Geez, whatever - like advancing germans troops gave the soviets any remorse - death attacking the enemy or death in camps... Like Soviets were given much of a choice how to die - Stalin's Directive "Not a Step Back" may have been tactical suicide for his troops but nobody can argue the overall strategic value and how many lives it saved in the long run. It was a fight for survaval, a fight not to become someone's slave - fight fought with desperate meassures when needed. Some countries rolled over and died under Hitler's boot - some loosing third of the poppulation to concentration camps. Soviet Union didn't and fought back every way it could - effectively being the dessissive force in putting an end to one madness. You do know the plans Hitler had for Moscow, right? To turn it into a lake? The human wave attacks maybe poor tactical desissions to you, but thanks to them - me and Permskii were born without gills.

I'm not biased towards germans - I study all sides equally, however, I have zero tollerance for biased supperiority complexes - give equal due to all sides. And shiny german panzer werhmacht is given way too much credit.



devaluating comment against this German veteran you are wrong. To say about someone he would be an "armes Schwein" in German is exactly like saying he would be a "poor bastard" in English. The analogy goes even so far that calling him a "Schwein" only is an offense ( to call someone a "bastard" in english is one one too, isn't it?) but with the "arm" before it, it changes to a remark of compassion, like "poor bastard". Its not logical, I know, but it is the way it is.


My fault - I appologize, thanks for the proper explanation. I have misunderstood the meaning of the phrase.



All in all I found it always suprising how low the hate versus their former enemies is with German vets. Even towards the Russians. The other way round it is a different matter though.


I could attribute that to the fact that soviet citizens that fought in WWII or lived through it, felt the burden of the war for decades in the impoverished nation... Part soviet propaganda was quick to lay blame for everything wrong in the nation's rebuilding process on the germans, but part the Cold War - Germany was helped immensely to get rebuilt by its former enemies, while Soviet Union had to make it out on its own... If I'm not mistaken, Western German government undertook many legislation to help its citizens forget the war or forbid certain mentions of its past - I guess it worked.



You are right with this, the Russian winter was decisive. Hitler had gambled that the German Wehrmacht with its excellence in Blitzkrieg could defeat the Soviet Union very fast. So he send them in without having Germany preparared for any lenghty war, even leaving the British job undone...In 1942 the German industry was producing more consumer goods than military ones, even in 1943, the British produced more military stuff than the Germans (is there anyone surprised?...Its true!) only then was the German economy set on war footing. Not faster than Germanys enemies, but slower. But he underestimated the stability of Stalins regime, and the start of the Russian winter stopped the offensive. The mud of the springtime proved a problem as well. As the offensive continued in 1942, the Germans had lost crucial time, while the Soviets had recovered from the shock of the immense onslaught. In 1941 the Soviet system was near collapse, as close as it would be never again (until 50 years later that is). So the winter saved the Soviets. But of course, Hitler should have planned for this. Instead he took the chance, hoping for the best. And someone who gambles again and again (like Hitler essentially had done all the way he came) one looses in the end.


All fair comments, but you forget to mention that german offensive stopped with the onset of the Russian Winter - weather being a lot less of a factor if you consider german offensive stopping in simular fashion but in good weather. Soviets brought up fresh reserves from the rear (mostly Siberia) and these reserves were much more significant when successful counter-attacks came and drove Army Group Center off. Soviet Tanks had better cross-country capability, there was only one real paved road leading towards Moscow - "Minskoye Shosse". Soviet troops used Sunflower Seed Oil to lube their guns - the oil with lowest freezing temprature so the soviet guns functioned while the Axis's guns froze up. Guiderian lost some of his forces to re-enforce Army group South as Hitler wanted Kavkaz's oilfields the same as he wanted Moscow - one of the prime reasons why Army Group Center did not reach Moscow until early December. German Recon troops reached Himki Hovrino - about 10 minutes by car from where I was born.

Now, the hardships of fighting in the cold weather are well known, however a likely excuse in this case. I attribute the german debacle in the winter of 1941-42 to stopping their advance and not being able to withstand counterattack... Russian Winter is a likely scapegoat - when the real reason would be fresh siberian divissions and new T-34 tanks in mass, not to mention German High Command thinking they decide when they want to fight and when they choose to rest...

The problem of German Industry - Majority of german war industry was supplied by private contractors and firms - it was not until late '43 early '44 that these firms were brought under singular control. German tanks were produced individually and not via assembly line, german uniforms were the most intricate uniforms of any nation that fought in WWII and took longest to produce. For example, german navy officers had ceremonial daggers (or sabers - don't remember) - still manufactured during war time. Albert Speer calculated that stopping the production of these items would save 15 tons of prescious metals, (?)tons of steel and hundred thousands of semi-prescious stones, not to mention labor and factory time. This is all way before Western Allies were able to fine tune the strategic bombing campaign. I think, the word you are looking for is lack of effectiveness and stubborness to change when the changes are nessessary for one's survival.

[StukaJr]

But with this
Russia liberated Europe in WW2 like the West Allies, that is not the question here. you are wrong. The Soviets liberated no one.

How many Polish citizens were killed during Nazi Germany Occupation 1939-45?

1/3 of its entire population

How many Polish citizens were killed during Soviet Occupation 1945-1989?

:roll:

[StukaJr]

Here are the forces, allocated to fight Soviets on the Eastern Front... I think Soviets did relatively well - especially facing 3 times as many troops as US, Canada, UK and its colonial allies combined. The numbers don't include Hugarian, Italian and Rumanian divissions that soviets had to face.



Allocation of German Divissions during WWII

Country .............................. 1941...1942....1943...1944
USSR .................................. 34.......171......179....157
France,
Belgium &
Holland.................................. 38......27.........42......56
Norway &
Finland....................................13.....16..........16......16
Balkans..................................7.........8 .........17......20
Italy ......................................0.........0...........0.......22
Denmark................................1........1 ............2........3
North Africa............................2........3.............0........0

Germany's casualty statistics:

By D-Day, 35% of all German soldiers had been wounded at least once,
11% twice, 6% three times, 2% four times and 2% more than 4 times
The average officer slot had to be refilled 9.2 times
Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
84 German Generals were executed by Hitler


Many are quick to remember Stalinist Purges of the military, but forget how Hitler sacked his own commanders.



Germany lost 40-45% of their aircraft to accidents

Mid-Year Manpower On The Eastern Front Year
..........Soviet......German
1941 5 million 3.3 million
1942 5 million 3.1 million
1943 6.2 million 2.9 million
1944 6.8 million 3.1 million

This is by no means to belittle Western Allies Strategic Bombing Campaigns, War in the Atlantic, Lend and Lease shippment etc. Just to illustrate the forces consumed to keep the Soviets from advancing - not due to the lack of tactics as some would like to think.


...
Aircraft Available In Europe
Date...........British....US....Soviet....TOTAL....German.......All/Grm Ratio
June 1942....9500.......0......2100.....11,600........3700.........3.1:1
Dec 1942...11,300...1300...3800.....16,400........3400.........4.8:1
June 1943...12,700...5000...5600.....23,300........4600.........5.1:1
Dec 1943...11,800...7500...8800.....28,100........4700.........6:1
June 1944...13,200..11,800..14,700..39,700........4600.........8.6:1
Dec 1944....14,500..12,200..15,800..42,500........8500..........5:1
...




EDIT - I keep on editing the tables as they don' seem to come paste the same as the source files. (stupid tables!)

[hist2004]

Russian Marines sound cool? Any books about them I can check out?

Nothing current. There is Blood on the Shores: Soviet Naval Commandos
in World War II by Viktor Leonov, and James F. Gebhardt. Any modern
reference is by Web search and details are lacking in-depth content. I
need our Russian forum members to fill in any detailed information. I
respectfully request we stay on topic. Thanks.

Regards,
Hist2004

[Kitsune]

If I'm not mistaken, Western German government undertook many legislation to help its citizens forget the war or forbid certain mentions of its past - I guess it worked.


You have simply no idea. The question wether you can be proud of being a German, starts a discussion here, in contrast to any other people of this planet. All our life we are fed here with documetaries, showing how evil the Nazis were. I learned about the Holocaust when I was eight. One got the impression that the Germans were totally different from other people. That 2 million Germans were died during the gigantic ethnic cleansing that happened in Europe in 1946, is not told. The full cruelty of the Western Allied strategic boming campaign is also downplayed here. Things are forgotten: when a German soldier displayed astonishing valor druing the war, that is forgotten. When he saved 10 of his fellow soldiers, that is forgotten. And if he killed a dozen enemies, while risking his life, that is especially forgotten. You are right, we are biased: The victories of the Wehrmacht are never shown, only the defeats.
Another example, Wolfgang Peterson said once during an interview that he ****ted his paints befor the premiere of "Das Boot". Because the movie would be "too heroic". (The characters actually sink some enemy ships in the movie, although they are dutifully killed in the end). After talking to some Russians, I realised what a different picture they have, the Soviet Union made one big Russian hero stroy out of the war, all cruelties are either forgotten or the Germans are made responsible for them. And they wallow in that heroism all the time. And that is a nation that was headed by a dictaor who was possibly the most cruellest of all time, and that conquered and orpessed half of Europe for half a century. I repeat it again: The Soviet Union never liberated anyone, not one single person, over the whole span of its existence. Period.


84 German Generals were executed by Hitler and nearly all of them after the attempt of some top brass of the Wehrmacht to kill him. Befor that it wasn't that easy to get Hitler to have you executed if you were a general. Not so with Stalin. Stalin killed his Generals before, during and after the war (although I can't remember that they tried to kill him...although Stalin lived in constant fear that he could be assasinated). After the war especially the successful ones, since he wanted the credit all for himself. Even Zhukov came into trouble, although this Soviet hero was the someone even Stlain dared not to kill. So his name was sullied, bit by bit, until he was transferred to some godforsaken place).


I'm not biased towards germans ...sorry, I have a different impression. Even more after your last post.

1/3 of its entire population I remebered that is was a bit less. But why not? Lets say a half if it makes you feal better. Are the 1,5 million Germans killed in 1946 already counted in?


How many Polish citizens were killed during Soviet Occupation 1945-1989? Joker. As if Stalin would have been a nicer guy than Hitler. There was no war anymore. Stalin would have slughterd all of Germany (or all of any other nation if that suited his interest). But he was already in a power struggle with the west. And the German people was just another ressource. Why waste it? Mass killings would have just made the people flee to the west. So its just calculation, not moral superiority. How many people have been killed in, for example, Denmark? and how many people had Hitler killed from 1933 to 1939? Probably some tens of thousands...but Stalin had millions executed during the same time.


I apologize for hijacking this thread. I promise I behave from now on.

[StukaJr]

I'm extremely confused - perhaps I should not continue, until you explain what Stalinist Purges ever have to do with Nazi War Crimes? Obviously, one was not caused by another so I do not see the point of one being brought up as retort to another.

I understand, that mass genoside caused by Stalin somehow takes attention away from mass genoside caused by Hitler and his cronies - that's why you keep on mentioning it... However, I must point out, that Hitler was very clear about his goals and german people followed him - his exact words called for mass deaths, one rally after another. And people followed him and did kill, exactly as he asked... Look at a single one of his speech and the end results of Nazism are there - from the first beer brawls to the final transcripts from his bunker.


On Aug. 22, 1939, a week before his attack on Poland, on September 1st, Hitler exhorted his nation: "Kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need". At least 50,000 up to maybe even 200,000 Polish children, deemed to have "Germanic" features, have been forcibly taken to Germany to become Germans, their birth records falsified. Only very few of them returned after the war.

Apparently, german people followed that man - even after he said exactly of his murderous intent. The result - apparently 22% of Polish population (sorry, I'm mistakenly said a third in my previous post.)

Would the World be the better place, have the Barbarossa achieved its objective and Germanic people got its Lebensraum? Would UK and US have the power to liberate Europe with Soviet Union out of the picture? Would there be enough sub-humans left to populate the world 50 years of "occupation"? I'm not blind nor stupid to admit that Soviet liberation was far from ideal, but come on - given the two evils, I'm certainly glad that history is written the way it is today.


Joker. As if Stalin would have been a nicer guy than Hitler.

You'd better belive it, buddy - I for one, would not be here arguing the point (which you would like, very much, apparently) as I would not be born and my city would have been a lake.


I apologize for hijacking this thread. I promise I behave from now on

I did not say you did... however, discussions of what-ifs in WWII should be a sepparate subject or this topic will never return to its original subject - Soviet Marine Infantry.

[mack pl]

But with this
Russia liberated Europe in WW2 like the West Allies, that is not the question here. you are wrong. The Soviets liberated no one.
How many Polish citizens were killed during Nazi Germany Occupation 1939-45?
1/3 of its entire population
How many Polish citizens were killed during Soviet Occupation 1945-1989?

damn, Russian and German are talking about Poland :roll:

sorry for hijacking this thread, check my new thread ;)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21201

Regards

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

How many Polish citizens were killed during Nazi Germany Occupation 1939-45?
1/3 of its entire population
How many Polish citizens were killed during Soviet Occupation 1945-1989?


At least 37,000, according to official government data.

[GazB]

I hope you understand what im trying to say GazB - at least its possible to talk with you

I am not as hot tempered as Permskii, and I try not to get personal... even married people can disagree on some things... the fact that strangers on the internet who can't read body language or tone of voice agree on anything is amazing to me, and I try to not get to personal insults... but the weather winning a war to me is just Bull****.

Do we talk about Operation Desert Storm being a war where the Iraqis were defeated by night? Did night time really beat the Iraqis? It is dark there every night surely they were already defeated.. America and the rest of the world need do nothing to defeat them.

Or how about Vietnam... did the jungle defeat the Americans? In Afghanistan were the British and Soviets defeated by mountains?

The reality is that it was the wet periods between the dry summer months and the frozen solid winter months where everything ground to a halt and the Germans lost their initial mobility advantage that they really suffered.


Its a fact that the russian winters combined with the West front helped the russian "war factory" to get build up behind the Ural.


The Factories were moved in 41 and early 42... what was happening on the western front that made that easier? Equally shifting a factory machine by machine by rail 1000km and then having your workers first build their factory and then install their machines and then use them in 16-18 hour shifts is not actually aided by winter. Working a lathe in a building that has yet to have a roof fitted to it in minus 20 degree temperatures is not an easy thing... doing it in 20 degree temperatures would have been much more comfortable.


I just dont like glorifying a army too much because the greatest russian UBER-SOLDIER needs only one bullet through his head and he is dead like any other human on the earth.


Considering the amount of courage it would take to do what they did Super soldier is a good description of them. They weren't super as in perfect soldiers that killed 20 enemy troops for each soldier lost. They were super because despite being hungry and probably undertrained they were going up against the most powerful army and airforce in Europe... and not for Stalin... however much he'd like the think they did... it was for their country and their fellow countrymen they did it. There were cowards of course... there always are, but on the whole they stood and fought.

Of the 5-6 million Russian prisoners and the huge stock of weapons and equipment lost more than two thirds was during the first few months of the war. The Soviets learned very quickly how to withdraw more efficently and also that the fate of those that surrendered was not exactly that appealing. (Most were worked to death... of the 1 million or so that survived all were treated as traitors).


Would the Soviets have won the war with the Western Allies being neutral? I doubt it.

What western aid was pivotal? The Trucks were very useful, but they could have managed without them. Old obsolete aircraft and tanks the west no longer could use was not what saved the Soviets.


A string of heroic Red Army deeds, one gets the impression as if the Russians were at leat 3 times as effective fighting machines as the Germans...

You confuse heroism with effectiveness. Stepping in front of a car to save a child is heroic... but trades you life for the chance of saving the life of another. Desperate attempts to remove a hated and hateful enemy from your country might cost you 30 million lives... and can be considered heroic... you might call it Pyrric but I can see the heroism there... in the front line soldier that bore the brunt of the pain and suffering.


On the other hand win reading them one also gets the impression that the Germans were possibly outnumbering the Russians, that may explain it then.


The German concentration of forces for an attack rarely resulted in them charging headlong intentionally into a stronger force. Certainly when they attacked they did so with a concentration of armoured forces.


You are right with this, the Russian winter was decisive.

Rubbish. It is an excuse... and a feeble one at that.


In 1941 the Soviet system was near collapse, as close as it would be never again (until 50 years later that is). So the winter saved the Soviets.

Again, Rubbish. There was no threat to the Soviet system thanks to the Nazi system. Even in the Ukraine where they might have risen up united against the Russians the SS units behind the German army units proved themselves to be rather worse than the Communists.


you are wrong. The Soviets liberated no one.

They were obliged to liberate no one. They were at war with one country and their aim, which they achieved, was to make sure it would not be a threat to them for the forseeable future. Dividing Germany and creating a friendly buffer zone in Eastern Europe achieved that aim.




Stalin's Directive "Not a Step Back" may have been tactical suicide for his troops but nobody can argue the overall strategic value and how many lives it saved in the long run.

Much like Hitlers "not a step back" policy at the gates of Mocow. Considering it was winter moving back would mean leaving prepared positions to open country... makes perfect sense to me at a time when frostbite was killing more soldiers on both sides than bullets were.


German tanks were produced individually and not via assembly line, german uniforms were the most intricate uniforms of any nation that fought in WWII and took longest to produce.

Not to mention the shifting of the production plants led to the Stalin order than all unecessary duplication was to be avoided and anything in production that worked was to be built rather than rediculous high tech paper projects. Instead of wasting time making Panthers and Tigers if the Germans had just slightly upgraded the Panzer IV and produced it in numbers they would have done much better than they did.

[ArtofPain]

2GazB:
Your kung-fu is much better than mine! woot

[hist2004]

Hijack in progress! Remain in your seats! Mod's are clearing the
thread! :)

Regards,
Hist2004

[StukaJr]

you are wrong. The Soviets liberated no one.

I'm sorry, Hist2004 - that was the last quote I just couldn't let go off... But once I've read this quote again - I've realized, I've been arguing with a brick wall. My apologies.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

When will we ever stop this argument...we all know that German Superman we're only stopped from ruling the world because they got tired of being so unbelievably badass and each individual soldier fighting hand to hand and stacking "subhuman Slavs" bodies 10 high. Or perhaps will we consider the fact that the Soviet Union along with most of Eastern and parts of Central Europe were essetially agricultural economies. Everything adds up to economics...I have no belief in my mind that the average German, Russian, American, British, Japanese (unless you're French)...etc...G.I. was so VASTLY superior in firing a rifle than his enemy counterpart that he could account for so many casualties. Why were the Germans so effective during WWII, well I'll be the first to tell you it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with genetics or language/ethnic groups. It was the fact that they were an economic powerhouse. Whilst the Russian industry depended upon making things with anvils and hammers and horse drawn carts (as they had not actually reached anything one could consider an "industrial revolution" till prior to or deep into the conflict)...the Germans had sophisticated machine tools and machine presses for their weaponry and assembly line techniques that could've put Henry Ford to shame (trust me on this one my father owns a machine shop and his equipment is basically all German, and is still as effective today at machining parts as it was when it was made in the WWII era, minus the computer controlled CNC machines which are unbelievably badass, what a sorry Polack haha). The "Industrial Revolution" we so often learn about in our schools actually began in the iron-rich Rhine River valley...the Germans we're outpacing the Russians in efficiency (sorry to you Russkies, but your country and its political systems have relied upon outdated and inefficient systems of control) in manufacturing. Plus if I do recall most country's have a military buildup prior to a large scale war (especially if you're trying to protect your "bloodright" of a thousand year Reich filled with Scandanavian Aryan beauties with golden hair and sapphire blue eyes). This adds up obviously to the weaponry which was even more effective than anything any of the allies could come up with. Along with the new weaponry came new tactics the world had yet to see, new weaponry=new tactics, and these tactics which centered around quick armored mobilization protected by ground troops that centered their fighting around pockets of machine gunners, along with advance forward artillery and fast attack aircraft (blitzkrieg, mind you I dont speak German but I believe translates out to something like "Lightning War" and your tactic must be very awe-inspiring to be called such a thing which the Poles and the French had to learn about the hard way). Meanwhile the U.S. Army was training warfare against tanks with Deuce and a halves with tank painted on them and cardboard machine guns driving around tanks that Gen. Pershing himself could've personally inspected...NOW if the U.S., widely known as having the strongest military fighting capabilites or so we will go down believing HA, we are pretty badass, was training with such deplorable technique, what in the hell do you think the almost archaic Russian Army was doing I ask??? And the second part is strong leadership, the Germans, along with the Brits, have always been known for their strong leadership which was beyond anything any other European nations could muster, with a strong emphasis on highly trained and skilled and educated officers, trust me most of these guys were'nt just dumbasses with ranking. They had also had one VERY KEY factor in their training, combat experience in The Spanish Civil War, and I've never been in combat, nor am I in the military, but I BELIEVE in shell-shock and you never really know how soldiers and especially command will react to these until they actually experience them, and by the time the Germans had struck the Russians with their 3 million man army who had been hardened and accustomed to war itself in Poland and France, the Russians were in for a slaughterfest. I wasn't there in WWII, and I seriously doubt any of you were nor were the authors of many of the books you read, but from all of the archival footage I've ever seen its been Russian rifleman facing down a tank army larger than any armored force in the history of the world with 88's and Mescherschmidts (sorry I'm sure I spelled that wrong) and even freakin motorcyclists with submachine guns, the largest mechanized army in the world and history up to that point. This period is what most of what is written here is about from '41-43ish, and the utter humiliation of the Russian conscripts with their outdated equipment facing a superior force in training, experience, expertise, and a tenacious sense of birthright. However, lest we forget the lessons Dunkirk, I believe if it had been an equivalent American or British force facing the Germans, minus their island or continental retreats, I believe the Germans would have been just as efficient in combating them. Mind you 8 out of every 10 German soldiers were killed by Russians, though the Russians lost I believe at last estimate 27 million most of which were civi's which probably consisted of Jews, women, children, the elderly, partisans, cripples, handicaps, teenagers and other "deemed filth." The Russian winter is quite overplayed, if anything the vast expanse of Russian territories dealt the largest blow to the German army, how do you supply millions of men over thousands upon thousands of square miles its just logistically impossible, it would be like trying to wipe out the entire expanse of the Roman Empire in its "Hay Day." I must agree that the Russians though obviously more experienced with their own winters knew how to prepare more, phsically the Russians were built the same as the Germans (wait I'm sorry they were stupid and subhuman, perhaps they had small compact bodies with short arms and sloping heads and were covered in hair for warmth...wait maybe not), sounds ridiculous but everytime I hear that argument thats what I think. We must also remember that a country defending its own borders will fight tenaciously for their motherland (Vietnam, Afghanistan...), so I think the Russians eventually got the ball rolling. If it wasn't for the Russians all of Europe would be speaking German right now or American losses would'be been far more than 450,000, and Europe must also thank God in heaven that England was an island and that America was right across the pond.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Very well-thought out response, halfpolish! woot :hug:

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Thanks Russian,

But, we also must consider what has plagued Central and Eastern Europe for most of the course of its history...A STRONG FEAR, AND HATRED OF POWERFUL LEADERSHIP, ok ok ok I know Stalin...well aside from dictatorships which derive their power from having an inept ability to make people disappear in the middle of the night, Central and Eastern Europe having large populous' that were up until around the turn of the century under a complex system of serfdom, had an obvious natural fear of strong-willed leaders. This also derives from the fact that they had been also made to suffer under many powerful countries backed by powerful and influential leaders (Prussians, Germans, Austrians, random guys with helmuts that had bull horns on them, and Swedes, so forth...even as far back as to the Tatars and Mongolians). So, this in turn made them inherently afraid of people who displayed the most important characteristic of leadership, "charisma." Lets face it Hitler had it (even though he sounded like a woman when he got worked up and yelled in German, haha, but seriously he did) and so did Churchill, Mussolini, Franco, oh and that guy in Cuba no one has ever heard of Castro...or something. These men got by more on the power of their words than their own direct actions, and well there words were strong enough to get others to do their personal bidding. However, in many non-Western European countries it seems that these characteristics are looked down upon, and that long before the American and French (cowards...im sorry i had too) Revolutions, these people in the steppes and eastern plains of Europe had a strong independent sense of being and ownership of their lands, that eventually led to many of their downfalls, but I digress...it seems that many of these people were either feared and destroyed or were put down by an envious other (Zhukov rode on his white horse in the victory parade in Red Square, a few weeks later he was sent to Odessa, an outpost on the Crimean I believe, because Stalin thought that the horse was too pretty for Zhukov to be riding on, it should've been him on the white pony). It seemed that the people were so scared of having strong leaders, that they actually ended up with what they hated even more than that, an immense, and powerful, yet beyond reasonable centralizied gov't. Which was so centralized you were'nt allowed to move forward with your life and reach higher, achieve, create or think, and was so corrupt that Hitler was right in his estimate that with one push "the whole rotten structure would come tumbling down," but it didn't and thats testimate to the Russians. I must also just make a personal statement, WWII was not a peacekeeping mission, it was a war for survival, yes the Russians lost many, and far more than any other except for perhaps the Chinese under the Japanese since they just looooooooved the Chinese (Rape of Nanking) so why are we turning this into a we killed more than you, nu uh argument, statistically yes the Russians lost more men, but the Germans destroyed their own country and its testimate to them that they built it back up so quickly, even though now their economy sucks because their taxes are so high. But again the Russians were the first there to liberate the Chinese, and by the way the communists had already pretty much beaten down Jiang, by then Mao had already won the hearts and minds of the mostly poor agricultural populous who saw nothing wrong with everyone sharing in the wealth (my teenage quick explaination of "communism," even though I'm in my 20's ha) so the Russians didn't really HAVE to go there to save their brothers in communism, even though I'm sure they had vested interest in China and SE Asia. But lets think, I'm not defending Stalin, I'm sure someone much "nicer" with his same capabilites could've done as well with the cards he was dealt, but there was a massive purge in the Soviet military leading up to the war. I know for sure that the top guy in the Russian Air Force mysteriously decided not to show up for work on Monday or for that case every proceeding Monday up until present day, must've had too much Vodka and wandered off in the forest and grown a beard or something. The guy who would eventually make the designs for the T-34 was sent to a gulag prior to the war, but when the sh*t hit the fan, Stalin's rearside sent out a search party to Siberia for him real fast. And someone might wanna correct me on this last one but something like 20-30ish ranking generals were accidently misplaced somewhere, and I didn't even touch the number buckshot officer to be demoted or given nap time with the fishes. It seems to be the one who showed the most charisma, also hated it the most. Whereas the Germans LOVED it, like David Hassellhoff single handedly bringing down the Berlin Wall with the sheer power of his music. I mean Hitler was a pansy wannabe art student till a Jewish peddler overcharged him for water colors or whatever. Then he wrote a book about the overcharging of water colors by the Juden...I think it was called "Mein Kampf" (he also had a Czech boyfriend, but thats off task). Next thing you know the whole brown shirt, black shirt fiasco, Kristalnocht, and BAM, survey says.......HERE IS YOUR NEW DICTATOR, but we'll just call him Fuehrer, it sounds nicer (once again my German is bad, I know its a required course at our required German language schools...no wait they lost the war, oops I'm sorry). So in closing I think we should villanize the villans, not our Allies (minus the whole Cold War thing, we were just messin around the Russkies and us, and yes the US did win and came out as the world's sole Super Power, but soon to be surpassed by China due to their large population and their superior poductivity, once they start making cars, computers, and electronics and no longer the complex finger traps which bewilder us Westerners, the US is in some serious economic trouble). Well most of that was just a tangent, but it seems to me sometimes we need to go with the lesser of two evils, OK Stalinist Russia even up to Yeltsin sucked major ass, but as far as I know they didn't set out to "exterminate" entire peoples and cultures like the Huns (Germans, if youre not familiar with the term, I didn't mean Attila) did, and don't come back with the Chechen argument, they asked for it, what do you think the US would do if Montana decided that it wanted to worship the church of the white wolf which said that you can't kill women and children and non-combatant in Jiha....I mean in war and it wanted be its own sovereign country and suicide bombed D.C., hhhmm I wonder...So, I think this is still some of our Western style Cold War sensibility that forces us to subconsiously ALWAYS downplay Russia's role and sacrifice in defeating National Socialism or Nazism, but man imagine if, there would've been ton's of blonde haired, blue eyed ladies running around...but I've always been partial to brunettes. I mean I see shows like Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, etc...always showing how heroic and self-sacrificing the Americans were in the European theatre, and yes we were, very much so, we helped win a war that was wasn't on our soil (I'm not talking about the Japanese) but everytime one hears anything about any other contribution to the war, whether it be Russian, Polish, Dutch and I hate to say it even French (but very very little)...etc...whatever, no matter how significant or even insignificant, it is always downplayed with "but's" and "well if's" and "they could've" and "only with the help of" and so on, and I think its due to the majority Anglo-view of things whether historian or just Anglo influence and population size comparisons, I think we should put credit where credit is due, but why do we only do this for the enemy? I guess I could only compare it to any random chosen war story or book or movie...there always seems to be a guy named Brooklyn, who strangely enough hails from Brooklyn and is always a badass and has an Irish/Italian accent or there is the Irish guy who they generally will call "Mick" and he is from Boston and he is always a badass, and then there is the Jewish guy who can either be badass or a complete effeminate coward but nothing else and you can always tell right off of the bat who the Jewish guy is...stereotypes geez, come on, I thought we were passed this...yes you can kill a Russian soldier by throwing an empty casing at him, cuz I mean they obviously die easier than any other nationality of soldier...or if I remember correctly generally cowards survive whereas the guys who get stuff done generally don't always come home, but maybe we should calculate how many Russians died with wounds to their backs from running to wounds to the front and we won't have to do this for the Germans because the bullets would either bounce off of their superior smooth bronzen chests and the rest were all killed facing the enemy down. The Germans were just as afraid to face the Russians as the Russians fear to face the Germans, most people dont have an underlying deathwish, but why can't we just for a second consider that the Russians love of life and their land led them to fight fiercely and sacrifice their lives for their country, but we'll end on something I love, "what if the Russians had better leadership which could've led to better weaponry and ability" who knows, so why argue about it!

[Internet]

Very nice and long posts ImonlyhalfPolish, but use paragraphs, because this is virtually unreadable.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

OK, thanks for the info I'm new to posting on forums, and my skills are lacking and undisciplined...

[mack pl]

OK, thanks for the info I'm new to posting on forums, and my skills are lacking and undisciplined...
you could edit your post any time ;)

regards

[Internet]

OK, thanks for the info I'm new to posting on forums, and my skills are lacking and undisciplined...
you could edit your post any time ;)

regards

Yep, I for one would appreciate it because reading it in this way takes too much time. I only read some parts. :oops:

[mack pl]

OK, thanks for the info I'm new to posting on forums, and my skills are lacking and undisciplined...
you could edit your post any time ;)

regards
. I only read some parts. :oops:

well, he should use ENTER sometimes ;)

[Internet]

well, he should use ENTER sometimes

Can you blame him, he is only half Polish. :D

[mack pl]

well, he should use ENTER sometimes

Can you blame him, he is only half Polish. :D

:lol:


well nobody is perfect ;)

[DE_Six]

How the heck a thread about Russian naval infantry in Chechnya turned to that, I have no idea... :cantbeli:

I'm impressed. ;)

Now back to topic, I read in a military publication that one of the main missions for Soviet naval infantry during the Cold War was to prepare the invasion of all islands and straits in the North Sea to allow the Northern Fleet to sail out to the Atlantic in full swing, as the Soviet Northern Fleet is virtually locked-in by the UK and the Scandinavian countries. The Morpehs would seize all choke points at the beginning of the Big One, effectively opening the northern harbors.

Any post-Soviet information was released about such plans?

[Zarathustra]

well, he should use ENTER sometimes

Can you blame him, he is only half Polish. :D

:lol:


well nobody is perfect ;)


especially you... ;)

[mack pl]

especially you... ;)
.... ;)

[ArtofPain]

How the heck a thread about Russian naval infantry in Chechnya turned to that, I have no idea... :cantbeli:

I'm impressed. ;)

Now back to topic, I read in a military publication that one of the main missions for Soviet naval infantry during the Cold War was to prepare the invasion of all islands and straits in the North Sea to allow the Northern Fleet to sail out to the Atlantic in full swing, as the Soviet Northern Fleet is virtually locked-in by the UK and the Scandinavian countries. The Morpehs would seize all choke points at the beginning of the Big One, effectively opening the northern harbors.

Any post-Soviet information was released about such plans?
You're right....